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S01.E02: Fallen Angel

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While Kovacs tracks down a man who sent Bancroft a death threat, Lt. Ortega bends the rules to keep tabs on his whereabouts.

 

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This was a much stronger episode than the first. The scene between kovacs and the stripper was really well done by both actors. Joel Kinnaman does a very convincing concerned mother. And the stripper clearly yearned for a concerned mother of her own. Well done all around, they packed a lot into a short scene. 

More backstory of the Envoys and their leader. They were definitely Browncoats, noble idealists who lost the war to the evil empire. And it looks like Kovacs and the leader were lovers? Probably/maybe. The revolution must have been a big deal to still be talked about 250 years later. 

Ortega is still the weak link for me so far. The Catholic stuff seems heavy handed. It is obviously going to come into play later in the murder investigation. There are anvils falling everywhere with the devout mother and the confessional ect. The only thing in the cop storyline that is exciting is that Hiro Kanagawa is back being in charge of a precinct. He was my favorite zombie cop in iZombie and I was disappointed when he was killed off. So it is nice that he rides again! Even if he is apparently part of a cop conspiracy to hide a dead girl in the morgue.

I am really enjoying Poe, it is an interesting portrayal of an A.I. And all the other A.I.'s having a mean girl poker game was a nice bit of levity. His eagerness to be a sidekick and Kovacs eye rolling irritation with him is one of the better relationships in the show so far. 

There is a lot of nudity in the show, but at least it seems to be equal opportunity so far. Which makes it seem normalized instead of gratuitous. I did find the sexual encounter between Kovacs and the scheming wife to be a bit out of nowhere. But since it was the last scene I'm hoping for an explanation next episode. 

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I agree with you about Ortega.  Plus, the actress isn’t very good and her face doesn’t compute.  It bugs me to no end

Edited by sisterspoon · Reason: Fracking autocorrect...
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Glad to see that Hiro Kanagawa found himself another captain gig!  Even if he ends up playing another shady one...

Ato Essandoh has always been one of my favorite actors, so him showing up is a nice surprise.  Curious to learn more about him and hopefully he and Kovacs will form an uneasy alliance.

Figured Kovacs was going to hook-up with Bancroft's wife right after they first met, but I'm surprised it has happened this quickly.  Have a feeling there will be more to it, of course.  Definitely saw a lot of Kristin Lehman there!  Good old Netflix!

Still finding Ortega an one-dimensional antagonist.  Hopefully she'll get more interesting soon.

The scene with Poe and the other A.I.s was interesting.

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There may be a problem when the AI is the most interesting character for me. At least I haven't seen his particular type/trope as many times before as I have tortured ex-soldier, obsessed cop, and wealthy evil asshole.

Speaking of body parts, jeez. Filming more realistic sex scenes without sheets being drawn up to chins is one thing, but showing full frontal when it's not necessary to the plot only serves to pull me out of the show. I don't need to know any actor's penis or nipple size!

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Gotta agree, Poe is my favorite character! Wanting to be Tak's 'partner' was so freaking adorable, and the group meeting/card game of AI's was fun.

11 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Definitely saw a lot of Kristin Lehman there!  Good old Netflix!

Did we? I wondered, because they cut that so we didn't see her face in the full body shot, and it made me wonder if that was a body double. But I definitely had a 'Well, HELLO THERE' moment when Laurens/James Purefoy came into the room...

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24 minutes ago, saoirse said:

Did we? I wondered, because they cut that so we didn't see her face in the full body shot, and it made me wonder if that was a body double.

My brain was screaming "body double" during those scenes!

The female nudity just looks so ........impersonal and generic; but damn, Kinnaman is fine (no disrespect to Purefoy, one of my long-time crushes).

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Surely there's some future med tech to heal skin. The cut on Kovacs nose is distracting me.

Sleeping with your boss's wife always ends well, so good decision making there.

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Well, the fallen angel is a literally fallen woman, Lizzie Elliott. Presumably the body is evidence of some crime/scandal. Except I don't understand how anyone could the possibility of Lizzie herself coming out of her trauma loop and telling people what happened isn't the real problem. Watch this space I guess.

Do believe it was Ortega who had hidden the Henchy daughter's body. She felt remorse I think and took the stack, so she could give the mother the body. What I'm thinking at the moment is that she's the one who tried to off the evil billionaire, and that's why she's so antsy about Kovacs. 

Will Yun Lee played Tak in a flashback. Did they cast him as a joke, because he's playing Taka in Falling Water?

James Purefoy doing full frontal while Joel Kinnaman is ostentatiously shieldid is like Thandie Newton and Evan Rachel Wood: It's the ones who are over the crest of the hill who have something to prove.  

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2 hours ago, sjohnson said:

What I'm thinking at the moment is that she's [Ortega] the one who tried to off the evil billionaire, and that's why she's so antsy about Kovacs. 

Hmmm. I hadn't thought of that, but now that you mention it. @sjohnson, it seems almost too obvious.

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7 hours ago, Broderbits said:

My brain was screaming "body double" during those scenes!

The female nudity just looks so ........impersonal and generic; but damn, Kinnaman is fine (no disrespect to Purefoy, one of my long-time crushes).

I think that might be the point.  Sleeve tech makes bodies impersonal and generic.  And also disposable.  When the body is nothing more than an expensive article of clothing that can be replaced, what's the point of worrying about how the sleeve is viewed and by whom.  

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Managed to stick with it through another episode, but I am still finding it a chore. I really don't care about any of the characters, and am still confused by a lot of what's going on.

For me, the best scene was between Kovacs and the stripper - it felt genuinely moving in a show that seems to be working overtime to be detached and hardboiled. Both actors were excellent in that exchange. Other promising bits - I liked the actor who is playing Lizzie's father, and it seemed clear from the get-go that he will become an ally to Kovacs even though their first encounter was a punch-up. I'm also still enjoying Poe the AI - some much needed comic relief.

The weakest link for me is Ortega. Both the writing and the actress are not working for me - I'm finding her performance OTT. I am also not clear on who the blonde siren who dropped from the sky was supposed to be, or why Ortega had stashed her body away.

Spot the Vancouver location: The historical museum where Kovacs was talking to the little kid is the Museum of Anthropology!

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On 2/3/2018 at 2:22 AM, sisterspoon said:

I agree with you about Ortega.  Plus, the actress isn’t very good and her face doesn’t compute.  It bugs me to no end

I really like the show but have to second the not very good part. For me at least, every scene with her lessens the overall show. I mean she is really bad. Glaringly, noticeable, scene destroyingly bad.  If this was low budget scifi it would be one thing, but everyone else is totally fine.....

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"I value my privacy," says Bancroft as he strolls into the vault with his penis out for everyone to see. That's gotta be a bit of intentional humor.

Also the naked hologram advertisement... thing... inside Psychasec saying "I'm the best sleeve money can buy, put your wife in me" and Kovacs sarcastically saying "Hmm. Tasteful." Hee!

Pretty sure the hallway and lobby of Psychasec is the BCIT Aerospace Campus in real life.

19 hours ago, 2727 said:

Sleeping with your boss's wife always ends well, so good decision making there.

I'm not sure he even really had a choice. Wasn't she saying her body secrets some drug that's some kind of pheromone and makes him feel what she feels? She dosed him with some sci-fi roofies! He was going to say no before she did that.

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I'll probably keep watching, but not tonight. I'm having trouble getting into it. And my dad was watching, too, which is just weird for me. 

 

21 children. Crikey!

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There seems to be a lot going on in this. So it’s one of those shows that will require complete focus. No streaming this while doing other things. 

So happy to see Renee Goldsberry in this. She’s come a long way since One Life to Live.

I like the lead in this but find the cop annoying as hell. As stated in the episode, surely she got more important things to do, than stalking Takeshi.

 

That shot of JP/Laurens naked was damn. He’s certainly blessed. 

Edited by Enero
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On 2/3/2018 at 3:51 PM, saoirse said:

But I definitely had a 'Well, HELLO THERE' moment when Laurens/James Purefoy came into the room...

Me too. I still remember him as Mark Anthony in "Rome".

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As with the book, it's obvious already that the actual storyline of Bancroft's murder is just a framework with which to build the world that Morgan envisaged. The hardboiled, cyberpunk, transhuman dystopia. There are so many cool ideas in here.

One being that they put their eyephones in fresh every morning? Cool. That's a fun little detail, and I don't recall whether it was in the book or not, Another being that the religious backlash against the offered immortality of cortical stacks is to reject that, and campaign to live finite lives. And that veteran's daughter was evidence of how those rich, powerful, immortal people use other humans.

The whole show is about humanity and the lack of it, either through choice or conditioning. This shockingly impersonal view of bodies as commodities. Using people for sex, stealing, killing, and then coercing those people to resleeve and do it all over again. Definitely not a pleasant world.

Kovacs' own history obviously has strong connections to a previous rebellion against the status quo. I'll be honest, I genuinely can't remember much about the woman he keeps remembering, or what she stood for. And Kinnaman was better in this episode. Clearer dialogue delivery, more inflection and emotion. Perhaps he was playing Kovacs as still being in shock in the pilot episode. He's reminding me a little of Thomas Jane in The Expanse. I definitely enjoyed him terrifying the obnoxious kid in the museum.

Poe, the proprietor of the AI hotel is fun. A slightly lighter role, in what is a very dark, dirty show. And do people know that AIs interact with one another, in their own cyberworld? Can't imagine they'd be okay with that. Especially when the AIs talk about humans in such disparaging terms.

There are lots of familiar faces in this show. Bancroft's lawyer was in Bones, and had a small part in Serenity. I do like seeing actors pop up again and again, particularly in genre shows. Tahmoh Penikett in the last episode too.

The Bancroft clone vault was eerie, but it's something that doesn't quite work for me. Because why would you have clones that are the same as your current age? Live over and over again, wouldn't you just have all your clones be 19 years old, so you get to experience physical prime over and over? Of course, James Purefoy strode in to prove his... ahem... physical prime is much the same as it was in Rome, almost fifteen years ago. Mrs. Bancroft didn't look to shabby either.

I don't really have much to say about Ortega right now. The actress isn't impressing me, and I don't know what she's up to with that stolen stack.

One last thing, I think the theme music for this show blows. It should be base driven, heavy, oppressive, not the anaemic strings thing that it is.

Edited by Danny Franks
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43 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

Live over and over again, wouldn't you just have all your clones be 19 years old, so you get to experience physical prime over and over?

I was wondering about this too—although I think 25 is the peak—and now I'm thinking that since they could have just as easily cast 25-year-old looking actors, that the choice to use those more middle aged had to be for the optics of conveying the centuries-long age of the Methuselahs.

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Or, he didn't have the wealth yet (or the technology didn't exist yet) to have himself cloned at that young age. He could have chosen a different sleeve altogether, I guess.

 

On 2/2/2018 at 6:52 PM, CaptainTightpants said:

There is a lot of nudity in the show, but at least it seems to be equal opportunity so far.

Not really equal. We've seen JK's backside a lot, but there's still been far more female frontal, especially if you count the corpse however many times now.

It is dehumanizing -- but it always is anyway, with women as objects. Not giving a pass for that explanation.

Thirding or fourthing or whatever that the scene between Kovacs and the sex worker was the best. Wondered whether he meant it when he said that she was worth more or deserved better than the way she's being treated. Was that a moment of humanity or was he playing the role so she'll keep talking when he returns for more information? --That may be the most messed-up self-view I've seen, that she thinks Bancroft is one of the good ones because he pays for a sleeve upgrade if he happens to kill one of the girls. I don't believe that life/death really mean so little in this world. It's a reality that they can redownload, but that doesn't make a painful death experience less traumatic.

I'm still in for now because most of the violence has been very stylized. Lizzie's trauma portends bad things, though, and if it gets more "personal", I may be out.

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4 hours ago, justmehere said:

We've seen JK's backside a lot, but there's still been far more female frontal, especially if you count the corpse however many times now.

I dunno, there's been a fair amount of Whang-Waving...

I'm not a prude, and I am actually glad to see a reasonably realistic approach to nudity as opposed to artfully draped L-shaped sheets, etc.  But as someone who can appreciate the female form, I am just as happy if they don't bombard us with too gratuitous the use of crotch-shots.  Thankfully, a neatly tonsured vulva is not excessively distracting, but when the guys come out to play, it's a little different.  Prominent.  Especially with that thing swinging around and knocking ornaments off the coffee table and up-ending furniture!

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I watched the first two episodes last night and I don't know if I want to stick with it. I'm not familiar with Joel Kinnaman from anything and I'm not really impressed with him. I wish the actor playing the flashback Takeshi was the main character. Like others, I don't care for the cop lady either. I'm finding the show confusing and there are just way too many boobs. On the plus side, it looks beautiful and I like Poe the AI and the hotel. I don't know whether I should keep watching or not.

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21 minutes ago, festivus said:

On the plus side, it looks beautiful and I like Poe the AI and the hotel. I don't know whether I should keep watching or not.

I'm up to episode 7, which was amazing. And it is worth sticking around for Poe who becomes even more awesome throughout!

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1 minute ago, CaptainTightpants said:

I'm up to episode 7, which was amazing. And it is worth sticking around for Poe who becomes even more awesome throughout!

Okay, I'll give it a go. Thanks! So far, Poe is my favorite character. 

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7 hours ago, Netfoot said:

I dunno, there's been a fair amount of Whang-Waving...

Really? I only recall the one scene w/Purefoy/Bancroft. They've been very obvious about avoiding it w/Kinnaman. As opposed to several shots of the dead girl (very disturbing and unnecessary), of Mrs. Bancroft, of the hologram

 

7 hours ago, Netfoot said:

Thankfully, a neatly tonsured vulva is not excessively distracting, but when the guys come out to play, it's a little different.  Prominent.  Especially with that thing swinging around and knocking ornaments off the coffee table and up-ending furniture!

Thankfully? Whichever way you mean that, there's still the matter of equal exposure (though thank you for not calling it vagina, which so many use incorrectly). Men wouldn't be so distracting if such views were a more common occurrence. That also gives credence to the argument that showing women has become commonplace. Plus:

 

5 hours ago, festivus said:

there are just way too many boobs

This.

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1 minute ago, justmehere said:

Really? I only recall the one scene w/Purefoy/Bancroft. They've been very obvious about avoiding it w/Kinnaman. As opposed to several shots of the dead girl (very disturbing and unnecessary), of Mrs. Bancroft, of the hologram

 

That's all I noticed of male frontal too. When they were showing the sleeve holograms, the male one was fully clothed.

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1 hour ago, justmehere said:

Thankfully? Whichever way you mean that, there's still the matter of equal exposure

I simply meant that thankfully, they were less distracting, simply by not being so, uh, prominent!  As for equal exposure, I don't know that this is explicitly desirable, but in any case, this show is a move in that direction, desirable or not.

1 hour ago, justmehere said:

thank you for not calling it vagina, which so many use incorrectly

As a youngster, I received a basic education.

2 hours ago, justmehere said:
Quote

there are just way too many boobs

This.

Bare boobs are standard beachwear and have been for decades, as far as I am concerned.  Except (funnily enough) in my own country where you can still receive a $10 fine if you insist on making a fuss about it.  Again, I can do without it as easily as with, but I think it is a positive sign when cinematically, the artful draping of bedclothes or positioning of vases of flowers is not required.

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On 2/2/2018 at 5:52 PM, CaptainTightpants said:

The only thing in the cop storyline that is exciting is that Hiro Kanagawa is back being in charge of a precinct. He was my favorite zombie cop in iZombie and I was disappointed when he was killed off. So it is nice that he rides again! Even if he is apparently part of a cop conspiracy to hide a dead girl in the morgue.

Ditto.

 

On 2/4/2018 at 12:00 AM, Cheezwiz said:

The weakest link for me is Ortega. Both the writing and the actress are not working for me - I'm finding her performance OTT. I am also not clear on who the blonde siren who dropped from the sky was supposed to be, or why Ortega had stashed her body away.

Believe she's the daughter of the woman who came to the precinct. As for Ortega, I'm giving her some time. I remember how I thought exactly the same things about the actress who plays Bobbie Draper - the Martian marine in The Expanse. And then when her story came to the front and she was in crisis mode - my opinion flipped entirely. For both the character and the actress.

On 2/4/2018 at 1:51 PM, Anela said:

I'll probably keep watching, but not tonight. I'm having trouble getting into it. And my dad was watching, too, which is just weird for me. 

 

21 children. Crikey!

Well, I imagine they're well spaced out, with many different clone sleeves. But I guess that might also give us a lot of suspects.

On 2/5/2018 at 1:22 PM, Danny Franks said:

The Bancroft clone vault was eerie, but it's something that doesn't quite work for me. Because why would you have clones that are the same as your current age? Live over and over again, wouldn't you just have all your clones be 19 years old, so you get to experience physical prime over and over? Of course, James Purefoy strode in to prove his... ahem... physical prime is much the same as it was in Rome, almost fifteen years ago. Mrs. Bancroft didn't look to shabby either.

I could wank it and say that the clones need to age to their age to be receptive to the stack. But I think that's probably shit science. So I think maybe, it's more that they are in the bodies they felt the most comfortable and powerful in. Even in a society where sleeves are common, 19 year olds might not hold the same gravitas in business, no matter how old the mind within. Cognitive dissonance, and all that.

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The scene where Tak questioned Bancroft was interesting to me. The lawyer and his wife answered Tak's questions so quickly, it made me suspicious. Were they telling the truth? Are his wife and lawyer colluding? Given her physically enhanced ability to seduce, could the wife have seduced the lawyer, and together they're angling to get Bancroft's entire fortune? Or is there just one specific thing they don't want Bancroft to remember (which is why they didn't destroy his stack as well).

I don't have the highest win ratio when it comes to speculating, but those thoughts ran through my mind.

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So, is Tanaka a common Japanese surname? Because it seems like every time I see the guy who plays the police chief on screen, his name is Tanaka - including decades ago in an X Files episode.

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1 hour ago, mledawn said:

So, is Tanaka a common Japanese surname? Because it seems like every time I see the guy who plays the police chief on screen, his name is Tanaka - including decades ago in an X Files episode.

Quote

5 most common Japanese surnames are Sato, Suzuki, Takahashi, Tanaka and Watanabe. ... The five most common Japanese surnames are: Sato, Suzuki, Takahashi, Tanaka and Watanabe.Nov 2, 2012 (https://japantoday.com/category/features/kuchikomi/5-most-common-japanese-surnames-are-sato-suzuki-takahashi-tanaka-and-watanabe)

Apparently. :)

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On ‎2‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 9:13 PM, sjohnson said:

What I'm thinking at the moment is that she's the one who tried to off the evil billionaire, and that's why she's so antsy about Kovacs. 

 

On ‎2‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 12:08 AM, shapeshifter said:

it seems almost too obvious.

I thought both of these things. Also, it's too early to give us the answer. There need to be more suspects. Plus, I want way more information before speculating.

I am still a little confused about the blond body. I thought the body being seen by the child was a memory from a long time ago, then it shows up in real time. I must have missed something.

Ah, well, on to the next episode.

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On 2/5/2018 at 3:22 PM, Danny Franks said:

The Bancroft clone vault was eerie, but it's something that doesn't quite work for me. Because why would you have clones that are the same as your current age? Live over and over again, wouldn't you just have all your clones be 19 years old, so you get to experience physical prime over and over? Of course, James Purefoy strode in to prove his... ahem... physical prime is much the same as it was in Rome, almost fifteen years ago. Mrs. Bancroft didn't look to shabby either.

Bancroft addresses this in a subsequent episode. He says he wanted to look like he does because it shows he's triumphed, and points to Odin, Jupiter and Zeus being the most powerful of the gods.

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I am so happy that the Poe AI is still a thing in this show, he is such a nice breath of fresh, snarky air in the sea of intensity in this show. The AI poker game was fun too, with them all talking about how weird Poe was for still having an interest in humanity. I wonder if AI rights or restrictions have ever been a thing in this universe, or if its just something people are used to here. 

I agree that Kovacs and the stripper was a really good scene. It was very humanizing, both for the characters, and for the world at large. While the characters are not super deep yet, its nice to see the glimmers of humanity, and how people still connect in this world. In fact, showing humanity is increasingly important in this show, with its emphasis on bodies and how they exist as vessels for people, and what being human even means in this world. 

The murder is mostly a way to explore the world, how it works, and its backstory, and thats fine with me. The mystery is fine, and seems interesting, but it mostly exists to explore this past of the apparent freedom fighters who are now being written in the books as evil terrorists by the current government, and how the world is here. 

Ortega is still the weak link here. She has her moments, but she just is rather cliche and wooden character existing in a pretty cliche and wooden cop universe. On the other hand, I think the stuff about religion and how it feels about sleeves and bringing people back and fourth from the dead. It has potential, and I like seeing how different things like religion and society adapt (or not) to fantastic concepts in world building. 

Never sleep with the bosses wife. It never ends well. 

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On 2/10/2018 at 7:20 AM, mledawn said:

So, is Tanaka a common Japanese surname? Because it seems like every time I see the guy who plays the police chief on screen, his name is Tanaka - including decades ago in an X Files episode.

I looked on IMDb and he’s had five or six different roles with the last name “Tanaka”.

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Oh, of course the detective sleeps with the wife. Ergh.

I was looking forward to this but it turns out it's strong scifoir (it's my scifi noir portmanteau). I fricking HATE noir. I'm not sure if I'll make it through. 

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6 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

Oh, of course the detective sleeps with the wife. Ergh.

I was looking forward to this but it turns out it's strong scifoir (it's my scifi noir portmanteau). I fricking HATE noir. I'm not sure if I'll make it through. 

I do too, but somehow it captured me and I kept on 'til the end, and will probably watch if there's a next season.

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On 2/8/2018 at 9:26 AM, festivus said:

there are just way too many boobs.

I have always had the impression that many European cultures are not very prudish about topless women .. or men. And I seem to recall some recent movement in the US for women to have the freedom to go topless without the taint of scandal. 

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On 2/5/2018 at 1:22 PM, Danny Franks said:

Because why would you have clones that are the same as your current age? Live over and over again, wouldn't you just have all your clones be 19 years old, so you get to experience physical prime over and over?

They can have any "sleeve" they want, so why not clone one over and oer to 19 or whatever?  Especially for the"trophy wife, as Ms Bancroft seems to be.

On 4/26/2018 at 7:17 AM, shrewd.buddha said:

I have always had the impression that many European cultures are not very prudish about topless women .. or men. And I seem to recall some recent movement in the US for women to have the freedom to go topless without the taint of scandal. 

There was a company that print male nipples on "flesh" colored swimsuits to point out the hypocrisy involved.   I'm not sure it's still going, though.

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On 4/26/2018 at 10:17 AM, shrewd.buddha said:

I have always had the impression that many European cultures are not very prudish about topless women .. or men.

Men?  I didn't know people were prudish about topless men.  I've always known men to go topless as required -- at the beach, doing yard-work in the sun... I never wear a shirt unless I'm leaving home.

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