S06.E13: The Devil's Greatest Trick

[Guest]

If I never hear the word "Hoss" again, it will be too soon.  I can't even watch Bonanza reruns anymore.

[La Dee Da]

I generally don’t like villains monologuing their evil plans ... but the show really needs to have Dragon (or whoever it ends up being) monologue the development of his/her evil plan over the last two seasons. I just don’t see how or why this unfolded this way. 

I’m curious if Alena has a bigger role to play - a lot of the more nefarious Helix stuff seemed to happen after James’ incarceration and she’s around a lot more than she is truly needed.

I get why they needed William at the theatre for the show down but that was incredibly eye rolling. They could have had something happen at the safe house or en route to a new location (post father-son chat via cell phone, of course), with William escaping and conveniently seeking shelter in the theatre in time to participate in the final act. That took me one commercial to think up.

On the former associates, I’ll just say I appreciate that Dinah pulls her hair back when she suits up. That’s it for them.

[Hiveminder]

I was getting some serious Stephen King’s Misery vibes in the Quentin/Laurel car scene. Quentin’s going to make my second hand embarrassment kick in. 

Cayden referring to himself as some mythological figure while narrating his hacking in that first flashback solidified my opinion of what kind of person he was. He was Self centered and high on his own superiority, usually the smartest person in the room but too arrogant to realize when he wasn’t. 

The William parts were stupid, but not as bad as I had prepared myself for. I can’t blame him too much since it was for plot stupid. Every Flarrowverse character has to suffer through it at least once. 

I wanted to smack Curtis when he and Rene were going after Anatoly and Curtis made his little comment about getting in trouble as soon as they start working with Oliver. You’re a vigilante Curtis. If there’s no trouble involved when you’re not working with Oliver you’re probably not doing it right. What, does he expect to just show up in his dumb jacket, make a clever quip, and watch while the criminals defeat themselves?

Also, Rene, shut up. Please, for the love of God. You don’t need to tell Oliver nothing’s changed twenty-eight times an hour. He knows. 

Seriously, Rene sounds like he just broke up with his girlfriend, but he keeps telling her to stop trying to change his mind while he takes eight hours to leave the room, secretly hoping that she will try to change his mind. But she doesn’t because Rene was a terrible boyfriend anyway, and she’s glad it’s over. She wishes it has been over sooner. 

[statsgirl]

Among the things that annoyed me in this episode, William being stupid was minor.  I understand why they wrote it, to push Cayden James into not wanting to blow up the city, and while I wish they hadn't done it so quickly after William was okay with Oliver being the Green Arrow, it at least provided an indication that William has really bonded with Oliver now and would be upset if he died and not just as a place to live.

Much more annoying were the n00bs, especially Rene.  Dinah really went overboard on Kill! Kill! Kill! considering her relationship with Vince hadn't lasted that long and only revived a couple of weeks ago.  But I can handwave that. What I can't handwave is Rene and how unutterably stupid he is. Even his last words to Oliver verbally thumbing his nose at Daddy, shows that he just doesn't get the big picture.

The worst was the idea that Dragon is the big mastermind behind everything.  To go from the brilliance of Cayden James to him?  They better swerve before the end of the season.

But my overall feeling as the episode ends is how very, very glad I am that Oliver and Felicity are together now and I don't have to spend the hiatus worrying and raging about them.

[tennisgurl]

You know, if NTA just hates OTA so freaking much, maybe they should give Oliver all those costumes and weapons he bought them with his own money back...

Edited February 9, 2018 by tennisgurl

[Soulfire]

Oliver looking to Felicity for reassurance --

Otherwise, yawn.

[Mellowyellow]

Aww @Soulfire is that all???

I know you are in no way responsible for the lack of quality content but that is terrible *wails*

[Featherhat]

Ok. I get it, for the last 10 years Lance has been mourning the death of whichever daughter and Sara has come back from the "dead" more than once. I get that he's desperate for his "rock" to come back to life but it would make more sense for him to contact Sara and beg her to rescue Laurel right before Darhk stabbed her or fix her using Gideon. Depending on KC's contract she'd probably say no due to the RULES but it would make more sense than this insanity. She's NOT YOUR DAUGHTER! Even if she was an amazing person and everything you ever hoped she could be, she still wouldn't be your Laurel and I don't think your Laurel would appreciate being replaced with her either. She's already been replaced with another woman with the same name and her mother and a meta version of her big trick. 

Someone should really tell him that on another earth he's deputy Furher who gleefully murdered his Sara because she likes women, that should snap him out of it. But I guess people go back and forward on doppelgangers when its convenient for the plot. I really don't see where this is going. I don't think they're going to kill her but do they really want two "good" screamers with identical powers on the same show? I guess if she's staying as a regular next year they could use her as a grey character like Killer Frost/Nyssa etc and have her pop up to alternately help/antagonise the teams. If she's not a regular then "redeem" her and she'll travel the world/back to E2 to help people. The only thing I don't want to happen is her becoming a regular on LOT, there are already too many calls to have Team Whiny Toddlers move over, and no thank you. The only good thing I can say about it is that unlike almost every other parental motivation on this show (except Rene but I'm trying to ignore him), Lance has a MyDaughter problem, I'm so sick of MySons......Speaking of:

CJ's plot kinda imploded for me when his MySon motivations were revealed and he and Felicity had like half a scene. I do think Alena knows more than she's letting on, whether or not she's full on evil or Diaz's sister or something, she was the one who talked about hundreds of millions of people dying and neither CJ or DDDragon seem to be into that. I hope there's another reveal because I don't think Dragon is going to be able to anchor the rest of the season regardless of KAs "badass" posing pictures of himself. 

William is still less annoying than the boobs, and he gets some points for this episode because he's only 13 and worried he's going to loose another parent in the space of a year. 

2 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Among the things that annoyed me in this episode, William being stupid was minor.  I understand why they wrote it, to push Cayden James into not wanting to blow up the city, and while I wish they hadn't done it so quickly after William was okay with Oliver being the Green Arrow, it at least provided an indication that William has really bonded with Oliver now and would be upset if he died and not just as a place to live.

Much more annoying were the n00bs, especially Rene.  Dinah really went overboard on Kill! Kill! Kill! considering her relationship with Vince hadn't lasted that long and only revived a couple of weeks ago.  But I can handwave that. What I can't handwave is Rene and how unutterably stupid he is. Even his last words to Oliver verbally thumbing his nose at Daddy, shows that he just doesn't get the big picture.

The worst was the idea that Dragon is the big mastermind behind everything.  To go from the brilliance of Cayden James to him?  They better swerve before the end of the season.

But my overall feeling as the episode ends is how very, very glad I am that Oliver and Felicity are together now and I don't have to spend the hiatus worrying and raging about them.

For now. I don't trust that I'll be happy that they're happy all Summer hiatus, we can't have any nice things. 

At this point Rene's stupid "This changes nothing, NOTHING I TELL YOU!" every episode IS reading that he wants to rub it in Daddy's face and/or have Oliver grovel so the boobs can feel superior, but knowing these writers its supposed to be convincing us PissyPants have a point and a moral high ground. And dude, you are still vigilanting, if the FBI gave two shits about Team Who? you could still go to prison and loose your daughter, the one you betrayed Oliver for, think about that. 

I know you are in no way responsible for the lack of quality content but that is terrible *wails*

At least it's harder to blame the ratings and reviews on Olicity, who are getting good reviews for their plots mostly. Of course that won't stop the anti crowd, but you can't say no one wants to watch them and turned of the TV if they have 0.5 of a scene in the last couple of episodes. 

Edited February 9, 2018 by Featherhat

[bijoux]

So underwhelming. Although, I honestly do think going back to corruption could be a good idea. That doesn’t just go away, it fits the show overall, and it fits a season in which Oliver is the mayor. The problems are that it’s KA taking over ME, and more troubling for me, that he didn’t use that last scene as a chance to play the character differently. He still looked like the same dumb stooge he’s been whenever he showed up this season. Come on, man, you’re supposed to make us realize that persona was just a ruse.

JH is really bad at playing the beats of grief and rage. So bad she made KC look good in comparison for a good part of the episode. Then of course BS pouted when Cayden called her on her bluff and all was right in my world. Seriously though, what was with the not screaming on Dinah’s part? I don’t know how many times BS screamed at her and she’d only duck and then go hand to hand. Did she have a sore throat?

Oh, William, you came to a bomb fight carrying a Flash backpack. Hon.

Who in wardrobe put Oliver in that brown suit? I’m going to have to believe it’s that he and Felicity were too busy for runs to the dry cleaner’s and Raisa was in the safe house.

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

It should have been Acevedo as Dick giving way to Emerson being the true mastermind. Ugh.

But who wouldn’t have guessed that switch?

3 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Not sure how the timeline works for all the CW shows, so I guess all this happened after Barry got released?  Too bad he was only there for a lift.  You'd think Oliver would ask him to help get people to safety in case Star City went all boom at the end.

Or get the bomb?

[AnimeMania]

The Devil's Greatest Trick was having the heroes think they have to go and chase the bad guys instead of trying to deactivate a bomb that is about to blow up a city.

I thought Oliver said he was going to put all the people from Star City in the Arrow Cave so they could ride out the bomb blast. When was he planning on telling people they should start heading over?

Kinda disappointed that William isn't dead right now. I guess he gets to whine another day.

[Primal Slayer]

5 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

You know, if NTA just hates OTA so freaking much, maybe they should give Oliver all those costumes and weapons he bought them with his own money back...

Did he buy them with his own money though? Does Cisco charge him for material?

[ladylaw99]

I am so glad that this show keeps up with the tradition of episode 13 being the worst.   Remind me not to watch 7 x 13.  

I really don't have the energy to complain about this one.  Everyone has pin pointed what I didn't like. I am going to pretend this episode didn't happen.  

But I will say Rene has to go, he has reached LL irritation, actually scratch that, he is more annoying than LL.  I didn't think it was even possible, so bravo writers, you did the unthinkable for me. (very slow clap)

[benteen]

Quentin is seriously going into Misery territory with Fake Laurel.  Seriously, how much longer until he's holding a sledgehammer while she's tied to bed with a block of wood between her ankles?

Can Oliver PLEASE beat Wild Dong half to the death the next time he says "This doesn't change anything"?  No one need to be slapped down harder than him.

Quote

Rene and his Hoss can go stuff it where the sun don't shine. "Oliver's a death trap." Dude, you literally signed up to be a vigilante. What kinds of situations did you think you'd find yourself in? And reiterating that they're still "doing their own thing" as Dinah totally deserts them to go on her own personal mission of revenge, is freaking LAUGHABLE.

THIS.

Congratulations, Arrow.  You became the first show to waste the talents of the great Michael Emmerson.  He did his very best with the material he was given but he deserved so much better.

Edited February 9, 2018 by benteen

[mtlchick]

That moment you finally realised that in a previous life (or another show) Cayden James SAVED the Dragon from impending doom.  Yeah I still miss Person of Interest, especially watching how badly this episode played out. 

 

And the noobs have done some really stupid things, and William becoming that needy teenager when he should know that his dad is trying to make sure he doesn't end up dead, but I think Quentin "hoping against hope again common sense" is running away with the lead.  My GOD man, the girl is not interested.  And MY GOD SHOW, STOP MAKING THIS HAPPEN.  

Edited February 9, 2018 by mtlchick

[Angel12d]

So can anyone tell me what Felicity’s storyline is this year because they literally had Alena in the bunker doing things Felicity could usually do in her sleep. (I guess that’s another reason why I think Alena might be playing her, simply because she doesn’t need to be there.)

Diggle barely feels present, too. I feel like this dumb civil war plot hinted at more OTA scenes but it hasn’t really given me OTA at all. It’s all newbies crap. ???

Edited February 9, 2018 by Angel12d

[bijoux]

8 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I feel like this dumb civil war plot hinted at more OTA scenes but it hasn’t really given me OTA at all. It’s all newbies crap. ???

This episode was lame, but I did feel that after the break we did get a nice amount of OTA in all combinations.

As for Alena, considering that the n00bs really aren't doing much, Felicity is probably even more sleep deprived than she was after hiatus.

[Angel12d]

1 minute ago, bijoux said:

This episode was lame, but I did feel that after the break we did get a nice amount of OTA in all combinations.

As for Alena, considering that the n00bs really aren't doing much, Felicity is probably even more sleep deprived than she was after hiatus.

I mean, we have had more OTA in the sense of them being in scenes together, alone and without the newbies for the first time in ages, but it just feels a bit shallow? IDK how to explain it. Kind of like “here, have a scene of them standing next to each other, there’s your OTA.” It doesn’t feel like much substance?

I guess I’m just greedy for more and completely fed up with the newbies. 

As for Alena, I’m gonna need a better explanation for Felicity suddenly needing help all the time tbh. I mean, the masks don’t have someone to take over if they’re tired. That’s why I’m leaning towards Alena being bad because later they can have Felicity be like “I let her in the bunker at my systems, she had access to everything!” ??

[way2interested]

10 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

As for Alena, I’m gonna need a better explanation for Felicity suddenly needing help all the time tbh. I mean, the masks don’t have someone to take over if they’re tired. That’s why I’m leaning towards Alena being bad because later they can have Felicity be like “I let her in the bunker at my systems, she had access to everything!”

I'm still going to wait to see if she's in more than 613 since the excuse could just plainly be they needed more help taking down Cayden and Alena seemed like the leading expert on him.

[doesntworkonwood]

So Arrow is going full on crazy-ex girlfriend with Quentin? As long as they acknowledge that Quentin isn't being sane, I'm ok with that. 

At this point, why do Team Toddler even want to be vigilantes? Dinah is focused on killing BS, which I'm pretty sure goes against whatever oath she signed when she became a police officer. Rene doesn't want to be in life threatening situations. And Curtis is, once again, just there. They're all ignoring the first rule of vigilantism, i.e. The City comes first. Maybe it's time for them to hang up their masks. 

I can forgive William for being an idiot because a) at least there's no question of his paternity and b) I can deal with plot induced stupidity of a character I don't really care about if it only lasts an episode. 

I just need Oliver to respond once to Rene's stupid 'this doesn't change anything' with a shrug. NO ONE CARES RENE! Stop wasting precious seconds of my show with your whinging. 

As for the reveal at the end. I can honestly say, the only reason I can remember who that guy is, is because @apinknightmare always brings up his villainous 3D printing biz whenever he's mentioned. 

JJ Makaro did a pretty decent job with the direction of this episode. The way the camera moved during the bunker scenes was fun, but it was one of fun things about the episode, the only other being Anatoly. 

[apinknightmare]

34 minutes ago, doesntworkonwood said:

As for the reveal at the end. I can honestly say, the only reason I can remember who that guy is, is because @apinknightmare always brings up his villainous 3D printing biz whenever he's mentioned. 

I'm glad my work is useful!

[GHScorpiosRule]

3 hours ago, mtlchick said:

That moment you finally realised that in a previous life (or another show) Cayden James SAVED the Dragon from impending doom.  Yeah I still miss Person of Interest, especially watching badly this episode played out. 

 

 

AHEM!!!!

❤️❤️❤️❤️JOHN REESE❤️❤️❤️❤️ was NOT some marble mush mouth drug dealing buffoon! He was a killer, yeah, but the CIA LIED to him. John was SO MUCH BETTER and DESERVED to be Saved. And he shore* did clean up well, didn't he, in the pilot?????

*Not a typo!

I miss ONLY the first two seasons of Person of Interest (Root fucking RUINED the show for me), and of course, Season Three's "4C."

What? Whaaat?

Edited February 9, 2018 by GHScorpiosRule

[DavidJSnyder]

So, Alena knew Caden for about a day?  Didn't it seem she was more familiar with him previously?

Also, when they use Barry for transporting them across town, it really emphasizes that he's not being used to evacuate the city or look for the bomb or anything.  Even if they think he would draw too much attention and cause Caden to trigger the bomb prematurely, , he could have easily taken William to safety.

[lemotomato]

If there's one thing consistent about Arrow, it's that in every season after after season 1, episodes 12-18 are varying degrees of not good to really bad, with episodes 13 and 15 always the ones I hate the most. The show is staying true to form so far!

[GHScorpiosRule]

39 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

If there's one thing consistent about Arrow, it's that in every season after after season 1, episodes 12-18 are varying degrees of not good to really bad, with episodes 13 and 15 always the ones I hate the most. The show is staying true to form so far!

Oh, I don't know. I liked Season Two's episodes 12-18, with the exception of "Suicide Squad" (16) and "Birds of Prey(17)."  But after that, yeah. Not so good episodes.

Edited February 9, 2018 by GHScorpiosRule

[way2interested]

5 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And in Season Three, well, I think 15 was when we met Nyssa for the first time? But after that, yeah. Not so good episodes.

Nah, Nyssa was introduced in 213, 315 was Oliver needing to go save Malcolm but really wanted to have a rematch with Ra's and then Felicity slept with Ray, so not great. I did actually like 213, parts of 214 and 217, 216, and 218 though, but yeah I'd say generally 12-18 are always the ones up in the air as to whether they are actually good (316, 318, 216, 416 imo, 512, etc.), meh or underwhelming (215, 212, 312, etc.) or annoying or bad (315, 317, 513-515, 413, 415, etc.). x13 and x15 seem to be the more consistent ones that are meh though.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 minute ago, way2interested said:

Nah, Nyssa was introduced in 213, 315 was Oliver needing to go save Malcolm but really wanted to have a rematch with Ra's and then Felicity slept with Ray, so not great.

D'OH! You're right. I'll go back and fix.

Edited February 9, 2018 by GHScorpiosRule

[statsgirl]

2 hours ago, way2interested said:

I'm still going to wait to see if she's in more than 613 since the excuse could just plainly be they needed more help taking down Cayden and Alena seemed like the leading expert on him.

There's nothing more listed on her imdb page but then this episode isn't on it either. (Why don't the agents have junior staffers updating that site?)

I wouldn't mind her helping occasionally but I don't want her in the Arrow cave, especially if Curtis comes back.

1 hour ago, DavidJSnyder said:

So, Alena knew Caden for about a day?  Didn't it seem she was more familiar with him previously?

Also, when they use Barry for transporting them across town, it really emphasizes that he's not being used to evacuate the city or look for the bomb or anything.  Even if they think he would draw too much attention and cause Caden to trigger the bomb prematurely, , he could have easily taken William to safety.

And William would have been far enough away that he couldn't sneak back.  That really was a bad use of "Barry".  I bet they thought it was super cool though.

I got the feeling last season that for Alena, it wasn't so much that she knew Cayden James personally as that she idolized him as an almost mythic genius and leader who was unfairly targeted and treated (the last part is definitely true) so she went to Ghost Fox Goddess to help get him out.  If she'd known him personally, maybe she would have stayed out of his way and not got beat up earlier this season

[tv echo]

Well, at least Oliver got the city's money back, so they're no longer millions of dollars in the hole. But that's about the only good thing I can say about this episode - other than it gave me the opportunity to quote from Guardians of the Galaxy...

Star Lord: "We've already established that blowing up the ship I'm on isn't saving me."

Right before killing him, Ricardo Diaz smugly tells Cayden James, "You see, guys like you never understand these things. Why destroy a city when you could take it over?" And yet he doesn't do a single thing to stop Cayden from blowing up the city! He can't take over a city that's blown up. Was he just trusting Oliver's team - the team Diaz takes credit for fracturing - to save the city?

Also, Diaz somehow managed to have - or hire - the tech expertise to fool the world's best hacker, as well as law enforcement agencies, with the doctored photo and the doctored video. So why did he even need Cayden in the first place? Btw, that tech expertise requirement leads me to Alena.

First, as others have said upthread, Alena got a lot of the dialogue and action that normally would be said and done by Felicity. (In other words, Alena was Curtis this episode.) Second, there was absolutely no reason to have Alena into the episode (she could've been spoken to over the phone, if necessary, for any Cayden insights) - which feeds into the theory that she's somehow going to turn out to be a villain and maybe the tech expert who helped Diaz.

Alternatively, Alena could be an undercover FBI or ARGUS agent, first undercover with Helix and now undercover with Team Arrow. Because the only other possibility is that the show is testing out a Felicity replacement (for whatever reason).* So I'm hoping that the show is maybe testing Alena with fans as a possible addition to Team Arrow, which I would be fine with, as long as Felicity stays on the team and on the show.

(* I'm still a little concerned that MG's fragile ego can't handle the fact that EBR disagreed with his "reverse sexism" tweet and will do something to get back at her.)

Also, I thought that Alena was acting out of character when she was all shocked and outraged that Team Arrow was going to round up the other villains for Cayden in order to save the city. This was the same girl who accidentally killed an ARGUS agent using an elevator last season and showed little or no remorse for it.

William reverted to acting like a needy 8-year-old, instead of a mature 13-year-old. (In other words, he's back to being an annoying plot device.)

Thea only got only a few lines of dialogue. Hi and bye. 

Diggle got dialogue and fight scenes. But WTF?!  Rene and Curtis were able to take down Diaz, but Diggle wasn't able to take down Diaz by himself? (Diggle > Rene + Curtis)  And then Rene and Curtis weren't able to take down Anatoly. Does that make Anatoly more badass than Diaz?

Rene and Curtis remembered to prioritize the city this week, even though they couldn't care less last week. But they still managed to remain resentful brats at the end of this episode.

Dinah goes on a rampage and apparently doesn't care about anything other than killing Black Siren, yet forgets to use her sonic scream to combat Black Siren's sonic scream in their last face-off in this episode. And ugh, she again accuses Oliver of leaving Vince to die, even though he planned to rescue Vince after they got the bomb last week (you know, the bomb that would've destroyed the entire city, including Vince).

The show is trying way too hard to tell us that NTA is a close-knit team who loves each other, even having Dinah tell Rene and Curtis that she loves them both (right before she tells them to stay out of her way). But I don't believe it. I'm still left with the impression that the only reason these three are sticking together is to stick it to OTA.

Quentin has gone completely nuts and saved his dead daughter's evil doppelganger, taking the injured Black Siren away in his car, even though she's a criminal, a murderer and a fugitive from justice. It's pretty bad when I'm feeling a little bit sorry for Black Siren (of all people) for being hand-cuffed in his car.

Double ugh... the show really might be setting up a path for Black Siren's "redemption"? If I was a Laurel fan, I could see the path as clear as day: Dinah goes too far as a vigilante and at the end of the season gives up being the Black Canary because she didn't live up to St. Laurel's legacy. Black Siren risks her life to save Quentin and decides to try to do good in order to make up for her murderous past. And so forth.... But I really hope not. I hope there's a twist at the end and she decides to stay evil.

ETA: You guys are so imaginative - I have to keep adding names to my list of alternative names for NTA.

Edited February 9, 2018 by tv echo

[insomniadreams88]

Rewatch notes:

So Cayden made $50 million from illegal black market drug deals disappear from a pharmaceutical company and that was the final straw for ARGUS to take him in for "multiple violations of federal law"? Were all those "violations" along the same lines? If so, I guess ARGUS was concerned about what else he could do? But I still don't get why that means holding him like they did. I'm not hearing about anything that he did before ARGUS took him in that's so bad? 

Hearing Lance say that he's not concerned about Siren in the fight against Dinah the second time around, ugh. So he thinks Siren would beat Dinah. Which could mean Siren would kill Dinah. But that's totally okay because ... this stranger looks like his daughter and therefore is? So she's more important than the life of a woman who's protected him and helped him in the past/everyone else?  

That last Lance/BS scene is even creepier the second time around. I'm half-expecting Lance to tell Black Siren next, "Remember when we did this?" and start bringing up things he and Laurel did. Maybe he'll call up his ex-wife: "Dinah, our daughter's alive." It's at the point that I probably wouldn't be surprised by anything Lance does while trying to turn Siren into his daughter. 

Speaking of daughters, I'm honestly wondering if Rene even remembers he has one since I don't think he's mentioned her once since the bomb became a real threat in these last two episodes? Where is she? 

Next time Rene says "this doesn't change anything," I need Oliver to go, "You're right. It doesn't. We're not asking you to come back. We don't want you back. Ever."

[calliope1975]

2 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Next time Rene says "this doesn't change anything," I need Oliver to go, "You're right. It doesn't. We're not asking you to come back. We don't want you back. Ever."

I need this so very much. Dinah was her own brand of nuts this episode, but Curtis was okay. I still don't want them to rejoin OTA, but he earned less of my ire. Rene, however, can leave at any time. I'm beyond over his constant attitude like he is the wronged party. Did he ever actually recant his testimony or just talk about it? 

[bijoux]

8 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

That last Lance/BS scene is even creepier the second time around. I'm half-expecting Lance to tell Black Siren next, "Remember when we did this?" and start bringing up things he and Laurel did. 

I mean, this is what she woke up to:

2 hours ago, tv echo said:

Quentin (to Black Siren): "What's the story, morning glory."

He's probably scarier than Chase ever was right now.

And this quote reminded me at how I rolled my eyes at the grieving Dinah. Yeah, I don't think Oliver was a meta just watching his boo getting killed in this scenario. 

Quote

Oliver: "Dinah. We do not just execute people."
Dinah: "No. You just let them die."

[apinknightmare]

Oh, Dinah. You can't take a swipe at someone for their inaction to save someone when you're carrying out a personal vendetta while the city is under the threat of a bomb and you can actually help stop it! 

These people are the worst, lmao

Edited February 9, 2018 by apinknightmare

[Primal Slayer]

1 hour ago, tv echo said:

 

Double ugh... the show really might be setting up a path for Black Siren's "redemption"? If I was a Laurel fan, I could see the path as clear as day: Dinah goes too far as a vigilante and at the end of the season gives up being the Black Canary because she didn't live up to St. Laurel's legacy. Black Siren risks her life to save Quentin and decides to try to do good in order to make up for her murderous past. And so forth.... But I really hope not. I hope there's a twist at the end and she decides to stay evil.

ETA: You guys are so imaginative - I have to keep adding names to my list of alternative names for NTA.

This Show is always trying to pull one over on the audience that they want you to think that but then they won't do it because they know that'd what people will expect so I fully believe that Siren will remain evil and that Q will get burned and Dinah justified. 

Though I'm surprised no one has pulled "this isn't the legacy Laurel would want to leave behind " card on Dinah.

[johntfs]

1 minute ago, Primal Slayer said:

Though I'm surprised no one has pulled "this isn't the legacy Laurel would want to leave behind " card on Dinah.

If they did, her response would likely be "I don't give a crap about Laurel.  Any Laurel."

For my part, I can't help but recall another time a character played by Michael Emerson lost someone he cared about.  The episode that followed opened like this:

Spoiler

 

and ended like this:

Spoiler

 

My how things have changed.

[Featherhat]

1 hour ago, tv echo said:

Also, Diaz somehow managed to have - or hire - the tech expertise to fool the world's best hacker, as well as law enforcement agencies, with the doctored photo and the doctored video. So why did he even need Cayden in the first place? Btw, that tech expertise requirement leads me to Alena.

First, as others have said upthread, Alena got a lot of the dialogue and action that normally would be said and done by Felicity. (In other words, Alena was Curtis this episode.) Second, there was absolutely no reason to have Alena into the episode (she could've been spoken to over the phone, if necessary, for any Cayden insights) - which feeds into the theory that she's somehow going to turn out to be a villain and maybe the tech expert who helped Diaz.

Alternatively, Alena could be an undercover FBI or ARGUS agent, first undercover with Helix and now undercover with Team Arrow. Because the only other possibility is that the show is testing out a Felicity replacement (for whatever reason).* So I'm hoping that the show is maybe testing Alena with fans as a possible addition to Team Arrow, which I would be fine with, as long as Felicity stays on the team and on the show.

(* I'm still a little concerned that MG's fragile ego can't handle the fact that EBR disagreed with his "reverse sexism" tweet and will do something to get back at her.)

 

I have been a little worried about blow back about that, especially with speculation of a big death this season (although that happens most seasons) and Olicity being so domestic. OTOH Felicity is the least of the shows problems right now and MG should be more focused on the several pilots he's got in the works this season. Unless EBR wanted out of course, and they agreed to let her. They shot awesome moments for her after she made those remarks I think? But there's no use worrying until we have to I guess. 

If Felicity left I think they'd just mostly use Curtis as tech. If she's not evil or there for a different organisation I can see her popping up like Lyla does every now and then as a fellow hacker/friend and not being on the team. 

[KenyaJ]

Regarding MG, it's really hard for me to believe that he would be that petty or retaliatory against Emily, particularly in light of the way the #metoo movement has taken off since the Kreisberg news came to light and the way that most of the other Arrowverse actresses also spoke up and the male actors backed them up. MG might've gotten his feelings hurt, but even he should've been able to step back and realized that he said a really stupid thing. I have no worries at all about Emily's place on the show. 

1 hour ago, calliope1975 said:

Did [Rene] ever actually recant his testimony or just talk about it? 

Speaking of, I mentioned this in the live thread, but I was glad Dragon mentioned to Cayden that Oliver is under indictment. I even in the face of Rene's betrayal, the show has gone too many episodes without addressing it in a concrete way. I assume it will be picked back up in the next few episodes, but it's kind of a big plot thread, and it's weird that it hasn't been treated as a big looming threat since 607, really.

[BunsenBurner]

I heard this comment today. Cayden’s son is 35 playing 18, William is 35 playing 12 and Oliver is 35 and looks 35. What’s with all these old guys playing kids?

[strikera0]

You know a writing staff is beyond saving when they have made their entire supporting cast unwatchable. I can't say that I have ever cared for Rene, Dinah, Curtis or Black Siren because they never had much of a character to begin with, but with the exception of Curtis, I honestly didn't mind them and was willing to give them a chance. However, the writing for these characters throughout the ongoing "Civil War" (LOL) storyline is beyond obnoxious and what's worse, the insanity of a redemption arc for Black Siren is also dragging Quentin and Thea into the mud right next to them. But - I guess this is what inevitably happens when a show runs on a shitty network that never seems to cancel anything. Sooner or later, the producers and writers go onto autopilot and just churn out script after script as part of a money grab. Quality dialogue, continuity, characterization, actions and motivations that actually make sense? Who would ever care about that? 

[GHScorpiosRule]

At least one thing's been confirmed: That Owen was not Billy. 

I realllllllyyyyyyy wanted John Reese Caviezel to make an appearance, if only to have a fight/beatdown between Stephen and Caviezel to see if it would be a draw or not. It would have been EPIC!!!! SIGH...

Guess what I'll be watching this weekend???????

Edited February 9, 2018 by GHScorpiosRule

[Morrigan2575]

59 minutes ago, KenyaJ said:

Regarding MG, it's really hard for me to believe that he would be that petty or retaliatory against Emily, particularly in light of the way the #metoo movement has taken off since the Kreisberg news came to light and the way that most of the other Arrowverse actresses also spoke up and the male actors backed them up. MG might've gotten his feelings hurt, but even he should've been able to step back and realized that he said a really stupid thing. I have no worries at all about Emily's place on the show. 

 

I seeiously doubt it ever crossed his mind but, even if it did, he'd have to go through Berlanti/CW/WB in order to fire her. And I can't see those guys going yeah, go for it. Who cares about the scandal and AJK and metoo and possibly opening ourselves to a HUGE lawsuit.

[KenyaJ]

2 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I seeiously doubt it ever crossed his mind but, even if it did, he'd have to go through Berlanti/CW/WB in order to fire her. And I can't see those guys going yeah, go for it. Who cares about the scandal and AJK and metoo and possibly opening ourselves to a HUGE lawsuit.

Even worse, he'd have to go through Stephen, and good luck with that. LOL.

[Hiveminder]

2 hours ago, insomniadreams88 said:

 

That last Lance/BS scene is even creepier the second time around. I'm half-expecting Lance to tell Black Siren next, "Remember when we did this?" and start bringing up things he and Laurel did. Maybe he'll call up his ex-wife: "Dinah, our daughter's alive." It's at the point that I probably wouldn't be surprised by anything Lance does while trying to turn Siren into his daughter. 

First Laurel tried to single white female her sister, now Lance is trying to make Laurel’s doppelgänger single white feeling Laurel. This family has a problem. 

[Mellowyellow]

13 minutes ago, KenyaJ said:

Even worse, he'd have to go through Stephen, and good luck with that. LOL.

I worry about the EBR situation sometimes until I remember this!

Can you imagine the conversation:

Hey Steve, you know your best buddy, lightening in a bottle onscreen chemistry colleague? The one you hang out with most weekends? We're going to fire her and bring KC back to play your love interest. Now we need you to work on your face during future GA/BS 4eva scenes ok?

[Hiveminder]

42 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I worry about the EBR situation sometimes until I remember this!

Can you imagine the conversation:

Hey Steve, you know your best buddy, lightening in a bottle onscreen chemistry colleague? The one you hang out with most weekends? We're going to fire her and bring KC back to play your love interest. Now we need you to work on your face during future GA/BS 4eva scenes ok?

Permanent nopeface. He’ll get stuck that way. 

[TwistedandBored]

I haven't watched it and I have no desire to watched it as of yet. I will probably catch up with my other shows before coming back to this. Thanks for the reviews guys. 

[kes0704]

2 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:I worry about the EBR situation sometimes until I remember this!

Can you imagine the conversation:

Hey Steve, you know your best buddy, lightening in a bottle onscreen chemistry colleague? The one you hang out with most weekends? We're going to fire her and bring KC back to play your love interest. Now we need you to work on your face during future GA/BS 4eva scenes ok?

The only silver lining to this is that it would be mildly entertaining to see him try and overcome that automatic nope face that appears whenever she comes anywhere near him.

[Primal Slayer]

This whole William thing made Felicity/Thea/Oliver just look ridiculous. They really should've found a better way to get him into the plot then have his step mom and aunt appear to not even notice that he is missing or seem that worried that he is in a room full of villains and a bomb.

[Angel12d]

They didn't even give Felicity and Thea a reaction shot to show they were worried, did they? I remember thinking when Oliver held William close and told him he loved him, like they thought it was the end, that it was weird it didn't cut to Felicity to show her upset or whatever. The bomb was never gonna go off so the writers/director just didn't think to include anything so...normal and human.

[statsgirl]

I think that's a directing/edition decision not to show Thea's or Felicity's reactions rather than a writing one.  They're not Oliver or a mask so it doesn't matter.

[apinknightmare]

It doesn't really bother me - Oliver's convo with William was a play to distract Cayden by playing on his emotions as a father. I don't think Oliver really thought it was the end, and I doubt Felicity or Thea would've either.