S06.E13: The Devil's Greatest Trick

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Cayden James discovers a secret about the Green Arrow that pushes him over the edge. Knowing everyone and everything he loves is in danger, Oliver must decide if he can do this alone or if he needs to turn to his old teammates for help.

[BkWurm1]

Ugh.  That was a mess.  

[Mellowyellow]

Just now, BkWurm1 said:

Ugh.  That was a mess.  

Was there much Felicity in it at least?

[cambridgeguy]

Michael Emerson was by far the best actor among the baddies so naturally he's killed off early.

Also, getting Barry to show up at a moment's notice and not have him help with the actual problem is just trolling the audience.

[ladylaw99]

I will give the noobs one thing, they make me  swear like a sailor

[apinknightmare]

Meanwhile, at DDDragon's new HQ:

[bethy]

I can't believe I'm saying this, and I still think the actor is a total tool, but I actually kind of like the way the reveal of Dragon as the mastermind worked out. I like that he's got a plan, that people are already in place, and can totally see that he would be contemptuous of the kind of man CJ was. As much as I hate to admit it, that worked for me. I guess we'll see where things go from here. 

It is really, really too bad, though, that for whatever mysterious reason BS couldn't have been the one behind everything. Now that would have been sweet.

[BkWurm1]

3 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Was there much Felicity in it at least?

Only behind the computers

[catrox14]

The Devil's Greatest Trick was convincing poor Michael Emerson to sign on and be so woefully underused and replaced by a worse character played by a much lesser actor. Although, maybe ME played the best trick and got a big fat payday out of this and a promise of a leading role on a new CW show LOL

Fuck this Quentin SL with Not!Laurel. It's mean, it's cruel and they won't even have anyone say to him or Thea that this is wrong and terrible and not good and that they might need some dang counseling.

Edited February 10, 2018 by catrox14

[insomniadreams88]

Wasn't impressed. Michael Emerson deserved SO MUCH BETTER. So did Cayden James.

I would really like someone to tell me why ARGUS saw Cayden as this big, bad threat because I still don't get it. Also, did they keep him in a storage container with a bag over his head for 8 months?! 

William was stupid.

Lance continues to be stupid about Black Siren. 

The newbies continue to be stupid. I'm going to need someone to duct tape Rene's mouth shut every time he's around OTA.

As for Dinah ... I get she's grieving, but I wish she wouldn't be stupid about it. She's apparently good enough to be promoted to lieutenant months after moving to Star City, but she doesn't realize Siren's not smart enough to pull off what she claims she did?

Still not impressed by Dragon and I'm surprised he's apparently not just some thug who happens to have a name? 

If I had to sit through that episode, they should've given me some quality Olicity and OTA scenes. Why didn't they? 

Also, I've given up on even hoping for Felicity/Thea (having them stand next to each other does not count, Arrow) or Felicity/Lance scenes. I'd actually rather not any Felicity/Lance scenes right now, not the way he's acting about Black Siren. 

[SleepDeprived]

1 minute ago, BkWurm1 said:

Ugh.  That was a mess.  

Was it? I figured as much based on the spoilers we got. I'm glad I'm spending my time watching the Olympics skating competitions instead of Arrow then. Heh.

I heard there was some Alena and Felicity, though, plus it's Emerson's last episode so I'll probably catch this sometime during the week or whenever I remember. Not really excited to see Dick Dragon be revealed as the mastermind or any of NoTA being their hypocritical selves again or any dumb Lance drama with BS. Meh.

[Racj82]

My reaction to the previews. 

Kill them all Team Arrow. Kill them all.

The episode itself. 

The show was not going to be able to sustain a whole season of one villain. As the head of the snake anyway. Time to table shift.

Black Canary and Mad Dog in particular need to die in a fire. Detective Lance needs a big hit upside the head. Send that character away. There is nothing else for him here.

[JamieLynn832002]

Lance needs therapy...so much therapy. That last scene of him and BS was creepy and even she seemed to think he was nuts.  Yes, she hesitated to kill Vince (for about 2 seconds) but she's gleefully killed a bunch of other people! Why are they making Lance so psycho about this?

[insomniadreams88]

Question: Can someone explain the photo BS had? Was it of E1LL and Lance? Did Lance give it to her and I forgot? Are we supposed to think she took it because she's maybe not totally evil? 

Or are we supposed to think it might be BS with her father and she lied about his death?

[Lantern7]

Great . . . the team is still fractured, Quentin is slowly going insane, William is getting wiggy, the really interesting main bad guy is now dead, and the least interesting one is now the Big Bad. And what does Dragon want to do? Take over Star City. I mean . . . really? Is there pirate gold buried under the entire city that warrants taking it over? It's always four steps away from Gotham City in the most dire Batman story. Any smart person would have left by now. And I'm thinking Reverse Flash never tried it because of the horror stories Damien and Malcolm told him.

Seriously, does William have a death wish? I get that he wants to see what his father really does, but he's creeping me out, and the Flash backpack isn't helping out. Oh, and it's nice that Oliver called Barry for a favor after his prison ordeal. Or maybe that was Kid Flash. Who knows?

"The Devil's Greatest Trick" . . . I like Arrow, but it's not Tarantino good.

And seriously, Quentin . . . that is not your daughter. That is never going to be your daughter. I know that he knows Sara is out there doing Sara-type things (which are awesome), and that he still misses Laurel . . . but Laurel-2 shouldn't be an option. And I'm pissed she's still alive. She would be so easy to kill. She's a non-entity, with the "real" Laurel dead for almost two years.

Next month: Massive dick-measuring contest! Oy.

ETA: Still not wanting the castoffs to die, though Dinah is skidding into the "one-dimensional character" lane.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Lantern7

[KenyaJ]

Remember how excited we all were this summer when we found out Michael Emerson was playing Cayden James? Yeah, me neither. What a complete waste of a great actor. He’s a total gentleman, though, because he’s said the nicest things about the show and his castmates. That he could be that generous after this crappy storyline proves what a professional he is. I’ll miss him, but Cayden was such a disappointment that I couldn’t be less ambivalent that he’s dead.

Truth be told, after tonight, there are so many characters I want dead that I don’t even know where to begin.

Let’s start with the waste of space named Rene. This is 4 episodes in a row that he’s reminded Oliver that nothing’s changed and Team WhoCares isn’t coming back to Team Arrow. Did I miss it where Oliver begged him to come back? My god, get him the fuck off my show.

And this pains me to say, but I’m kind of hoping that BS, Dinah, or anybody kills Quentin to put him and us out of our misery. I can only hope that tonight’s scenes were the writers’ acknowledgement that Quentin has completely lost his mind. There’s no other explanation for him thinking that a woman who’s NOT HIS DAUGHTER is his daughter. And my god, is Laurel so interchangeable to him that he’ll accept any old murderer as a viable substitute as long as she has the right face? 

I don’t want William to die, because he’s just a kid, Oliver would be devastated, and I was loving the Queen family dynamic up ’til now. But clearly his intelligence only applies to book learning. Felicity’s going to have to keep giving him the “your dad’s gonna be okay speech” the same way she has to keep giving Oliver the “don’t give up; find another way” speech. Thank god she loves those knuckleheads. They must completely exhaust her. Oliver’s last scene with William was really nice, though.

Overall, this episode was so, so dumb. Made worse by the fact that nothing will ever convince me Dragon was smart enough to have been behind Owen's death. Feh.

Edited February 9, 2018 by KenyaJ

[apinknightmare]

9 minutes ago, bethy said:

I can't believe I'm saying this, and I still think the actor is a total tool, but I actually kind of like the way the reveal of Dragon as the mastermind worked out. I like that he's got a plan, that people are already in place, and can totally see that he would be contemptuous of the kind of man CJ was. As much as I hate to admit it, that worked for me. I guess we'll see where things go from here. 

Yeah. Much as I wish DDDragon wasn't being played by a guy who has an alter ego that he frequently hashtags, it works in the grand scheme. I just think what led up to it was such a waste, and so far the indication is that his ultimate plan is something we've already seen before (having councilmen on his payroll, trying to take over the city). Fresh reveal, stale storyline. 

[Trisha]

Oof, that was a snoozefest. If it wasn’t for Micheal Emerson crushing every scene he was in, I would have totally tuned out. I’m sad he’s gone.  What a waste of talent. 

It was a small moment but I liked that they included Cayden’s mention of the bank account so Star City can get the ransom money back. I assumed it would just be left a dangling thread. Oliver shooting an arrow in Cayden’s wrist was a nice callback to The Dodger. Also I’m very glad Alena isn’t the traitor, but I don’t understand why Diaz killed Owen.  Did he even know Cayden back then?

I don’t know which character I’m more annoyed by: Rene with his constant sniping or Quentin, who has totally lost all semblance of reason. They’ve thrown that character under the bus, all because Not!Laurel apparently needs a redemption arc. 

Was it just me, or were the stunt doubles extra obvious this ep? Especially Black Siren and Diaz.

A month break following that underwhelming mess means I wouldn’t be surprised if the next ep returns to a new ratings low. Hello, 0.3!

[Morrigan2575]

3 minutes ago, JamieLynn832002 said:

Lance needs therapy...so much therapy. That last scene of him and BS was creepy and even she seemed to think he was nuts.  Yes, she hesitated to kill Vince (for about 2 seconds) but she's gleefully killed a bunch of other people! Why are they making Lance so psycho about this?

Lance was unhinged, seriously he's going nutso. Maybe there's some parallel between James going crazy and Lance going Crazy. 

I seriously don't know what Rene's issue is at this point. Dinah I get why she's acting like this, she's filled with rage and grief but, Rene is just being a dick for the sake of it. Oh like we ain't coming back....no one asked you to! Oh, it's all Oliver's fault, blah blah blah.

On the bright side Curtis was tolerable.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Morrigan2575

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Lance was unhinged, seriously he's going nutso. Maybe there's some parallel between James going crazy and Lance going Crazy. 

Please let that be the plan and not some unintended byproduct of this storyline. Because he's gone off the deep end. It's been a while since I wanted him dead. Hello, old friend!

[calliope1975]

We went from Josh Segarra to Dick Dragon/KA. What a disappointing downgrade. Thanks for the effort, ME! Too bad the writers didn't make the same. 

[KenyaJ]

10 minutes ago, SleepDeprived said:

Was it? I figured as much based on the spoilers we got. I'm glad I'm spending my time watching the Olympics skating competitions instead of Arrow then. Heh.

It was an even bigger mess than seeing all the men falling all over the ice. 

Edited February 9, 2018 by KenyaJ

[tennisgurl]

SHUT UP RENE! Seriously, Oliver could give Renes dying daughter all the blood in his body to save her life, and when the transfusion was complete, Rene would just be like "Thats cool I guess, but this doesn't change anything, Hoss". I just dont care at all about the Newbies, beyond how much they made my throat hurt as I yell at the TV. 

Dick Dragon is the big bad? He isn't very interesting, but he makes the most sense as the Judas of the Legion of Meh. Vigilante never made sense (until we found out what his deal was), Anatoli has no reason to want to mess with Star City, Black Siren is a follower, and that only leaves him. I have to say, its quite disappointing that they used such an awesome movie line for such a lame reveal. If they really wanted to play that line, they could have had a rouge faction of ARGUS or someone really cool that we wouldn't see coming at all. At least it wasn't Alena. 

Michael Emmerson tried so hard to make this work, and this role had so much potential, and it was utterly wasted. The whole story just fizzled out so sadly. 

So, Quentin has lost his damn mind. This is turning into some weird Indie horror movie, out of his frankly deranged obsession with this psychotic stranger who looks like his daughter. Would Laurel like this? Dont think so Quentin! And after we were actually making progress! Who cares that she hesitated before she killed Vince, she still killed him! 

I almost got used to William not being stupid. Guess thats done. 

[Guest]

Once again, not much to say about this tbh? It went quickly but also felt really messy. IDK.

The newbies can all die now. I hate them more than ever, more than I've ever hated anyone on this show. Good job, writers! 

The whole BC/BS fight is boring and tired and can we just stop with the squawking at each other, I cannot anymore! Plus their stunt doubles are really noticeable, it's so distracting. Just stop please. PLEASE. I'M A GOOD PERSON.

Quentin has lost the plot. I'd like to think this is part of the storyline and that he gets help but I know it's not. A thousand eye rolls!

Michael Emerson was completely wasted. Shame. Especially as we're left with the guy who can't enunciate. 

Edited February 9, 2018 by Guest

[Primal Slayer]

This episode was fast and furious as hell but I ended up really enjoying it. 

I think the worst part was probably having to shoe-horn William into the plot for no good reason. I already forgot but did we not get a reaction from Felicity and co. to William missing?

Black Siren was just on.point. tonight! She brought some grade A. snark and bitchiness and it was giving me life! Everything about her was just greatness. If they do ever redeem her, don't have her lose this snark. KC gives great attitude and sarcasm.  At Sirens core, I think she really does hate herself and is very afraid of dying which is why she does and sides with anyone of power. I hated that she and Cayden turned on each other so quickly since I think they could've been fleshed out more as a team but its Arrow, they don't like to do that kind of stuff. I love that she just doesnt like to waste time so Cayen wants a killer? I'm your killer! Her collar goes off? blasts everyone and just calmly walks away. I really would love it for her to meet Darhk because I feel like she is pissed that Laurel got herself killed but also pissed that this guy killed her doppelganger off.

Dinah was RUTHLESS tonight. She was truly out for blood and anyone who stood in her way was just collateral damage. If I didnt know any better, Id think that she was headed down the dark road as well! 

[tennisgurl]

At this point, if anyone needs a redemption arc, its Quentin. 

[apinknightmare]

So...is Alena working for Diaz? I'm guessing it's a plot hole, but that's the only thing that would make this make sense. Otherwise, why would Diaz target Owen when Cayden was in ARGUS custody? Was he counting on Alena convincing Felicity to break him out? If not, that makes no sense. He could've killed any other rando criminal's kid for a distraction for Oliver and Co. and wouldn't have had ARGUS to contend with. 

 

Don't try to make sense of it, self. 

[Morrigan2575]

a few other things. William was super annoying not I get why he had to be, good that was such poor writing to get to the predetermined and result (William there to have Daddy/Son time, this showing James the error of his ways). I get why, doesn't mean it worked or alls forgiven.

I like that the call Dinah "Dee" not "Di" I don't know why but, I think it's a better nickname

[scarynikki12]

6 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

the Legion of Meh

 

[Morrigan2575]

1 minute ago, apinknightmare said:

So...is Alena working for Diaz? I'm guessing it's a plot hole, but that's the only thing that would make this make sense. Otherwise, why would Diaz target Owen when Cayden was in ARGUS custody? Was he counting on Alena convincing Felicity to break him out? If not, that makes no sense. He could've killed any other rando criminal's kid for a distraction for Oliver and Co. and wouldn't have had ARGUS to contend with. 

 

Don't try to make sense of it, self. 

I'm guessing it's the Arclight group? Maybe they had him set Cayden up and now Dragon is jist taking advantage of the situation?

[catrox14]

It should have been Acevedo as Dick giving way to Emerson being the true mastermind. Ugh.

[statsgirl]

I'm still worried that Alena is working with Dragon because I just can't buy that he's that smart.  Is Arclight going to be next season's Big Bad?

I  think from Michael Emerson's viewpoint, it was a good role.  He got to play quietly crazy, he got to play wildly crazy and then redeemed in the end, and finally died a creepy death. So from the actor's point of view, good scenes and now he's gone to play an ever bigger series.  From my point of view, he elevated the material and the other actors and I'm sorry he's gone. Richard Dragon just seems like the same old thug we get every year.

6 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

I think the worst part was probably having to shoe-horn William into the plot for no good reason.

The reason was Cayden James' redemption.  Oliver's interactions with William showed him what a good father did, which is not to take revenge on the city for losing his child but to try to make amends and give back the money.  Add William to the long line of characters who was made Stupid For Plot.

Quentin is being made Crazy For Plot but there's still hope it will turn out to be a good arc for him.  Presumably he's going to chain up BS in the woods and try to brainwash her into goodness; I appreciate the parallel with Laurel who chained up Sara in s4.

I don't get why CJ wanted to take down the Green Arrow and not ARGUS who kidnapped him from the game.  I also don't get why ARGUS held him like that for all those months.

[GHScorpiosRule]

SHUTTHEFUCKUP DONG!!!! SHUTUPSHUTUPSHUTUP!!!!??????

Like others, what a WASTE of Emerson’s talent! And now my dream hope to see John Reese Jim Caviezel show up has been CRUSHED.?????

William is so so so so so very very very STOOPID.

And Dinah can also STFU, as can Curtis with his passive aggressive bullshit.

I’m going to have to rewatch because I missed the blink and you’ll miss it, Barry moment. 

And show is smoking some SERIOUS CRACK if it expects me to buy that mush mouth Dragon/Diaz was the mastermind behind all this. Sure, he can put as many cops/politicians on his payroll, but he’s dumb as FUCK when it comes to technology.

Oh, and because it can’t be said enough: FUCK OFF, Rene/Wild DONG!!!??????????????

[mxc90]

Cayden talked so damn much to the group, I wanted to run through the TV and detonate the bomb myself.

[tennisgurl]

8 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I don't get why CJ wanted to take down the Green Arrow and not ARGUS who kidnapped him from the game.  I also don't get why ARGUS held him like that for all those months.

I think we are getting closer and closer to a big "ARGUS as bad guy" plot that could impact not just this show, but the whole Arrowverse. At least, I hope thats where they're going, its all right there...

Actually, finding out ARGUS was behind it all would make the title of the episode make more sense. They're a top secret agency that keeps their shady behavior behind the scenes of all the superhero drama, after all. And the heroes have continued working for them, despite seeing their VERY morally questionable behavior, and lack of interest in human rights. But no ones really knows whats really going on. "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled, was convincing the world he didn't exist".

Edited February 9, 2018 by tennisgurl

[Trisha]

16 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

I already forgot but did we not get a reaction from Felicity and co. to William missing?

There was no “hey, where’s William?” scene but we did get a small moment when Thea and Felicity were watching the monitors and Thea muttered “get out of there, William” while Felicity looked on tearfully.

Also, I thought that KC did a good job on this ep. They’re not even pretending anymore that she’s anywhere near the fight scenes and I have no idea why BS told Cayden she killed Owen, but I liked how KC played the scene outside the van with Lance. So that’s...something?

Edited February 9, 2018 by Trisha

[apinknightmare]

Just now, Trisha said:

Also, I thought that KC did a good job on this ep. They’re not even pretending anymore that she’s anywhere near the fight scenes and I have no idea why BS told Cayden she killed Owen, but I liked how KC played the scene outside the van with Lance. So that’s...something?

Agreed. One reason I'm not looking forward to them possibly redeeming her is because if she's gonna be around, I prefer watching her being a snarky bitch!

[GHScorpiosRule]

Anatoly was the only delight in an otherwise frustrating and stupid episode. I ❤️❤️ David Nykl.

[lemotomato]

28 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

DDDragon

Ok, I think this is my new favorite nickname for him.

[Guest]

I still think Alena is bad. This episode didn't convince me otherwise. IDK what her endgame is though but something's amiss.

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I'm guessing it's the Arclight group

Am I the only person who heard Arclight and thought, "those are pretty great movie theaters"

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, lemotomato said:

Ok, I think this is my new favorite nickname for him.

3-Ds, baby!

I'm never letting it go

[insomniadreams88]

Just now, Angel12d said:

I still think Alena is bad. This episode didn't convince me otherwise. IDK what her endgame is though but something's amiss.

I really hope she's not because if she is, you would think she'd be Felicity's villain. But Cayden was supposed to be Felicity's villain and we know how that turned out. I really don't want to sit through that again. 

[thuganomics85]

I had a feeling that Cayden was going to be departing tonight since he got a big flashback episode, plus Michael Emerson seemed to really be firing on all cylinders this go around, giving off the sense that he wanted to go out big.  Overall, he was fantastic as always, but the character really never took off.  Then again, I'm not that much more optimistic about Diaz/The Dragon as a potential big baddie.  I'll admit the reveal was nice and I actually really do like Kirk Acevedo as an actor (even if he's apparently a tool in real life), but this is still going to be a pretty big downgrade.  I honestly wonder if this was always the plan or if either a) Michael Emerson had enough or b) they only could afford him for a certain amount of episodes.  Hopefully he'll find something better.  Of course, by that, I mean appear on Legends of Tomorrow, since that show seems to have an amazing ability to make disappointments here shine over there like with Damien Darhk.

That said, no way does Diaz have the technological know how (and frankly smarts) to pull all of this off, so I have to think someone else is in league with him.  I worry it's Alena.

The Devil's Greatest Trick is apparently making me briefly side with Dinah for once.  Oh, I do think she's gone insane and nothing good will come out of her revenge quest, but seriously: Black Siren is not Quentin's daughter.  But he's acting like it and frankly, it's making him a few fries short of a Happy Meal.  Out of context, that final scene of him and Black Siren look like it was from a lost episode of Criminal Minds or something.  He's just become a full-blown stalker now.  I pretty much hate everything about it.

Well, I was actually fine with the Noobs for once, but then Rene had to bitch about how death "follows" Oliver wherever he goes, and once again he and Curtis have to be all "This changes nothing!" at the end.  Yeah, y'all keep doing your own thing.  You know, despite one of you three slowly becoming unhinged and then even you two couldn't even take out Anatoly, two vs. one.  I mean, I love Anatoly, but he's not some ultimate badass, and any "heroes" worth their salt would have stopped him with that kind of advantage.

Way to almost get yourself killed, William.  Of course, with this show, they just used it to have Cayden see the error of his ways.  Way to reward dumb behavior, show.

Not sure how the timeline works for all the CW shows, so I guess all this happened after Barry got released?  Too bad he was only there for a lift.  You'd think Oliver would ask him to help get people to safety in case Star City went all boom at the end.

Not enough Felicity, although Diggle at least gives my love for calling Rene "hoss' back.  I want every Team Arrow member to just start doing that to him.  And, again, I don't care how evil it is, I really want someone to kidnap his daughter, because he'll totally suddenly come crawling back and begging Oliver for help.

Edited February 9, 2018 by thuganomics85

[KenyaJ]

5 minutes ago, Trisha said:

Also, I thought that KC did a good job on this ep. They’re not even pretending anymore that she’s anywhere near the fight scenes and I have no idea why BS told Cayden she killed Owen, but I liked how KC played the scene outside the van with Lance. So that’s...something?

Yeah, I thought that was maybe her most effective scene on the show ever. But I feel like her days on the show are numbered. Once Dinah and Quentin come back to their senses, what's her purpose on the show? Being a henchwoman to random villains? A redeemed BS would be redundant of BC and have even less of a purpose on the show. 

[Primal Slayer]

I cant believe that we had 2 episodes in a row that kind of played out the same for Vigilante and Cayden. They didn't think that through when it comes to timing. Vigilante gets flashbacks last episode and betrays his team to help the good guys and now Cayden James gets flashbacks and betrays his team. Both end up killed by a member of their team. 

[thegirlsleuth]

7 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

I really hope she's not because if she is, you would think she'd be Felicity's villain. But Cayden was supposed to be Felicity's villain and we know how that turned out. I really don't want to sit through that again. 

 Does Alena have a son?

[apinknightmare]

Just now, thegirlsleuth said:

 Does Alena have a son?

Herson, her boy Aleno will be introduced after the break probably. 

[bmoore4026]

26 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

SHUTTHEFUCKUP DONG!!!! SHUTUPSHUTUPSHUTUP!!!!??????

Like others, what a WASTE of Emerson’s talent! And now my dream hope to see John Reese Jim Caviezel show up has been CRUSHED.?????

William is so so so so so very very very STOOPID.

And Dinah can also STFU, as can Curtis with his passive aggressive bullshit.

I’m going to have to rewatch because I missed the blink and you’ll miss it, Barry moment. 

And show is smoking some SERIOUS CRACK if it expects me to buy that mush mouth Dragon/Diaz was the mastermind behind all this. Sure, he can put as many cops/politicians on his payroll, but he’s dumb as FUCK when it comes to technology.

Oh, and because it can’t be said enough: FUCK OFF, Rene/Wild DONG!!!??????????????

I love you.

And, on March 1st, the Outsiders get their asses kicked.

[ladylaw99]

I agree with others, I think Alena might be the Mastermind, Dragon just doesn't seem smart enough, besides  I can't understand anything he says with all that mumbling.