S04.E04: Big Trouble in the Big Apple

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Quote

Jazz and her family head to New York City for a vacation and surgical consultation, but while the Jennings enjoy the sights, Jazz fears she may need to undergo a painful procedure.  Later, Jazz and Greg argue over whether Jazz is ready for bottom surgery. 

[Quilty]

Jazz how dare you talk to your father  the way you did on the way to the raft trip. If you want that new vagina you'd better show more respect to the person paying for it. Little bitch.

[Nohardfeelings]

I felt so bad for the twins, you could just see how disappointed they were and I also noticed the way Jeanette said she “wanted to make this more of a vacation FOR JAZZ” What about her 3 other children who were left out of the change of plans until the last moment? This is supposed to be their vacation too. 

 

On a lighter note, I love when Ari is on the show, she seems so eloquent and has a general aura of being caring but ‘over it’ 

Edited January 24, 2018 by Heartismyarmor

[kicotan]

I realize that being able to orgasm isn't the deciding factor in her getting bottom surgery, but I found it interesting and also a bit confusing.

if Jazz has been suppressed from going through puberty, why would sexual attraction or the ability to orgasm be expected?

[xls]

17 minutes ago, Heartismyarmor said:

I felt so bad for the twins, you could just see how disappointed they were and I also noticed the way Jeanette said “She wanted to make this more of a vacation FOR JAZZ” What about her 3 other children who were left out of the change of plans until the last moment? This is supposed to be their vacation too. 

 

On a lighter note, I love when Ari is on the show, she seems so eloquent and has a general aura of being caring but ‘over it’ 

Me too ,the whole family revolves around Jazz & her surgery.  

[Nohardfeelings]

That tissue expander sounds horrible; just listening to that doctor describe it had me wincing. I think Jazz should reconsider the testosterone cream, it would give her more ‘material’ and could also increase her sex drive. One of the only considerable downsides is that it might cause facial hair and Jazz has said having a beard or mustache has always been one of her biggest fears.

[Emmeline]

8 minutes ago, kicotan said:

I realize that being able to orgasm isn't the deciding factor in her getting bottom surgery, but I found it interesting and also a bit confusing.

if Jazz has been suppressed from going through puberty, why would sexual attraction or the ability to orgasm be expected?

I believe Dr. Bowers wanted Jazz to masterbate for 2 reasons:

1.  Having an erection would stretch the skin which could help a bit.

2.  Since it is hoped that Jazz will be able to orgasm with her new vagina and clitoris, perhaps Dr. Bowers wants her to have some experience with them before the change.  I don’t think Jazz ever had an orgasm but she does have erections.  She mentioned having a boner when she woke up after her implant procedure.  Both sexes can achieve orgasm as toddles, but males don’t ejaculate until puberty begins.  

Jazz always seems to want a blanket or something covering herself up.  She even had a pillow when she was on the examination table with Dr Bowers.  I thought that was bizarre.  I don’t know if she does this to cover her genitalia, her weight, or both.

Frankly, I can’t see Jazz ever going away to college.  The whole thing is a mess.  

[J. Matazz]

53 minutes ago, kicotan said:

if Jazz has been suppressed from going through puberty, why would sexual attraction or the ability to orgasm be expected?

 

Because her body has been exposed to estrogen the past 3.5 years at this point of taping. Much as this show wants to paint the view that she's the first to go through a lot of these processes and so forth, she isn't. Make no mistake, she's one of the first. But others who have come and went through this process before her, no male puberty, have had sensation post-surgery, presumably before it as well.

 

32 minutes ago, Heartismyarmor said:

That tissue expander sounds horrible; just listening to that doctor describe it had me wincing. I think Jazz should reconsider the testosterone cream, it would give her more ‘material’ and could also increase her sex drive. One of the only considerable downsides is that it might cause facial hair and Jazz has said having a beard or mustache has always been one of her biggest fears.

 

 

As far as I know, the peritoneal skin graft is being used, which is probably best in terms of the least pain leading up to this June for surgery. If I understand these things correctly, both the show and externally (aka directly from them), that seems to indicate no cream, no expander use. Thankfully. Of course, the downside of that is, from what I researched, this type of surgery not only has the longest recovery but also has the greatest risk of complication. Expanders sound awful, although I never used one. It sounds terrible physically, in potential complications, as well as the feeling of disgust and loath towards that area that is only getting bigger and bigger. Having those parts made me genuinely feel emotionally detached from my body and sometimes physically in pain and/or ill, let alone potentially having them grow, goodness gracious.

 

Really liked the scene between Jackie and Jazz tonight. Always been a great relationship between the two of them, tonight it seemed like a stepping stone towards becoming a woman of age on Jazz's end. Probably my favorite part of the show, honestly, since it was so unexpected. Speaking of unexpected, the rafting boat capsized during the trip, cut for the airing, unfortunately. Think that would've been a welcome candid moment for such a serious episode elsewhere. For better or worse, I totally relate to Jeanette not telling Greg about the Dr. Ting OR (given how much Jazz's surgery is discussed, I can't believe Sander and Griffen didn't know what that meant) possibility--just genuinely worried about bothering people more than anything else, just to keep the status quo with some family members, you know? Also loved Ari's talks as always. She seems like she's become quite mature since the series began, always a voice of calm reason through the storm, and eloquent while doing so. Always a joy to see her in a given episode.

 

 

17 minutes ago, Emmeline said:

I believe Dr. Bowers wanted Jazz to masterbate for 2 reasons:

1.  Having an erection would stretch the skin which could help a bit.

2.  Since it is hoped that Jazz will be able to orgasm with her new vagina and clitoris, perhaps Dr. Bowers wants her to have some experience with them before the change.  I don’t think Jazz ever had an orgasm but she does have erections.  She mentioned having a boner when she woke up after her implant procedure.  Both sexes can achieve orgasm as toddles, but males don’t ejaculate until puberty begins.  

Jazz always seems to want a blanket or something covering herself up.  She even had a pillow when she was on the examination table with Dr Bowers.  I thought that was bizarre.  I don’t know if she does this to cover her genitalia, her weight, or both.

3

Your first item is exactly right, same reason the testosterone cream would genuinely help. If you think about the fact that the penile skin is used to line the vagina, the more of it there is, the more pliable/malleable it is, the more that can be used for its depth. 

 

Second, ehh, maybe. But personally speaking, what worked then doesn't work now, at all, be it location or method (or for that matter, feeling/results!) The erection upon the implant item, which I knew the study, but a friend who also looks at studies like I do said something like that would cause of an immediate surge of testosterone, hence that result.

 

As someone who has maintained a below average weight most of her life, I can't speak to Jazz hiding weight, but I do know I would always try to cover up my front before surgery. It genuinely was 100% about genitalia. Nobody's seeing that, not me, no way, no how, no chance.

Edited January 24, 2018 by J. Matazz

[Kid]

2 hours ago, Emmeline said:

Jazz always seems to want a blanket or something covering herself up.  She even had a pillow when she was on the examination table with Dr Bowers.  I thought that was bizarre.  I don’t know if she does this to cover her genitalia, her weight, or both.

I have noticed that too and it seems very odd to me. Obviously, she’s trying to hide her body.

Also, I found it very interesting that Jeanette did not tell her husband that an OR had been booked in case it was needed. That is really unfair. He has a right to know what is going on.

[janedi]

On 1/23/2018 at 9:57 PM, kicotan said:

I realize that being able to orgasm isn't the deciding factor in her getting bottom surgery, but I found it interesting and also a bit confusing.

if Jazz has been suppressed from going through puberty, why would sexual attraction or the ability to orgasm be expected?

Simple common sense should tell the adults in Jazz's life that no puberty= no sex drive.

 

On 1/23/2018 at 10:41 PM, J. Matazz said:

Because her body has been exposed to estrogen the past 3.5 years at this point of taping.

 

I have already explained this in the last thread. Giving HRT to a pre-pubescent child is not a substitution for puberty. I'm sorry if that offends you, but this is a biological fact. Puberty starts in the brain and the brain plays a huge role in development. Blocking puberty is also blocking the brain from doing what its suppose to. So no, estrogen has not and never will give Jazz a sex drive. In fact estrogen has most likely dulled her already non-existent sex drive even further. If you do a google search you can see trans people all over the internet talking about how estrogen has reduced their sex drives.

On 1/23/2018 at 10:41 PM, J. Matazz said:

Much as this show wants to paint the view that she's the first to go through a lot of these processes and so forth, she isn't. Make no mistake, she's one of the first. But others who have come and went through this process before her, no male puberty, have had sensation post-surgery, presumably before it as well.

 

I already explained this as well.  The "others" you refer to were probably blocked after they were further along in puberty. A 13 year old boy might still look very much like a child and have an unbroken voice, but is 1 year or 2 into his puberty. The sexual feelings and genital development comes first in male puberty. Then the more masculine features arrive.

All the doctors on the show have mentioned that Jazz is the most suppressed they've seen. You are completely disregarding that. Jazz was blocked at age 11 at the very beginning of puberty. Had they blocked her even 6 months later, she might have had some development down there and a bit of a sex drive, and still looked pre-pubescent on the outside.

Just look at Jazz's brothers when they were about 13 years years old. They could have easily passed for girls at that age, even after starting puberty.  The timing of puberty is usually genetic, so Jazz would have followed the same pattern

Edited January 25, 2018 by janedi

[gingerella]

48 minutes ago, janedi said:

Yes Jazz was a brat tonight, and yes she was disrespectful, but you know what? I blame Jeanette and Gregg 100%. This is what happens when you spoil your child, give them everything they want and raise them to believe they are "special" all their lives. I'm glad Gregg finally spoke up a little tonight, but it's a little too late. He should have put his foot down years ago. Now they have created a monster that will soon be unleashed upon the world. Jazz will turn 18 in October of this year and they will no longer have any control over what she does.

I feel sorry for the twins and Ari, not the parents. They are the innocent ones in all this. The twins have probably had to deal with disappointment all their lives. I'm glad they at least have each other to lean on. Something tells me the 3 older siblings spend a lot of time hanging out together WITHOUT Jazz and they probably prefer it that way.

 

Simple common sense should tell the adults in Jazz's life that no puberty= no sex drive.

 

I have already explained this in the last thread. Giving HRT to a pre-pubescent child is not a substitution for puberty. I'm sorry if that offends you, but this is a biological fact. Puberty starts in the brain and the brain plays a huge role in development. Blocking puberty is also blocking the brain from doing what its suppose to. So no, estrogen has not and never will give Jazz a sex drive. In fact estrogen has most likely dulled her already non-existent sex drive even further. If you do a google search you can see trans people all over the internet talking about how estrogen has reduced their sex drives.

I already explained this as well.  The "others" you refer to were probably blocked after they were further along in puberty. A 13 year old boy might still look very much like a child and have an unbroken voice, but is 1 year or 2 into his puberty. The sexual feelings and genital development comes first in male puberty. Then the more masculine features arrive.

All the doctors on the show have mentioned that Jazz is the most suppressed they've seen. You are completely disregarding that. Jazz was blocked at age 11 at the very beginning of puberty. Had they blocked her even 6 months later, she might have had some development down there and a bit of a sex drive, and still looked pre-pubescent on the outside.

Just look at Jazz's brothers when they were about 13 years years old. They could have easily passed for girls at that age, even after starting puberty.  The timing of puberty is usually genetic, so Jazz would have followed the same pattern

@janedi, I'm not sure you are aware of this or not, but @J. Matazz is our resident trans woman in this thread area and we are fortunate to have her firsthand perspective of the trans experience - and her willingness to share that with us freely - and in particular the issues being discussed in this thread. She is also a friend of the Jennings family. Therefore, when she says something, it would seem that a certain level of respect should be given to her comments since they come from firsthand experience, as opposed to book knowledge, as it were. No matter how much book reading an individual does, it does not, nor ever will replace actual firsthand experience knowledge from someone who has lived that particular situation. 

Edited January 24, 2018 by gingerella

[janedi]

This episode was very upsetting to me. So I'm just going to leave my thoughts and go to bed.

First off, Yes Jazz was a brat tonight, and yes she was disrespectful, but you know what? I blame Jeanette and Gregg 100%. This is what happens when you spoil your child, give them everything they want and raise them to believe they are "special" all their lives. I'm glad Gregg finally spoke up a little tonight, but it's a little too late. He should have put his foot down years ago. Now they have created a monster that will soon be unleashed upon the world. Jazz will turn 18 in October of this year and they will no longer have any control over what she does.

I feel sorry for the twins and Ari, not the parents. They are the innocent ones in all this. The twins have probably had to deal with disappointment all their lives. I'm glad they at least have each other to lean on. Something tells me the 3 older siblings spend a lot of time hanging out together WITHOUT Jazz and they probably prefer it that way.

Moving on, Jazz confirmed she is no longer interested in soccer, which is unfortunate since she's been playing for so long. I have a theory for why she's not into it anymore, but I'll keep it to myself for now.

I was very disturbed to hear that Jazz basically feels like she needs to "pioneer" all these risky surgeries for other trans kids. That just broke my heart. This poor child should not be made to think that she should risking her health and safety for anyone or any reason.  Jazz owes nothing to the trans movement.  She was not old enough to consent to being it's poster child.  Her parents put her in that position. It disgusts me. And I don't care what anyone thinks.

I also don't like how Noelle basically said she doesn't want Jazz's surgery to go wrong, because it would damage the "experiment"  WTH?? Jazz is an individual person not an outgrowth of the trans community. I have never like Noelle.

Jeanette annoyed me (as usual), What is wrong with this woman??? Jazz's orgasm issues ARE your business because you are the reason she can't have one. You made the decision to put her on the blockers, you created the issue, deal with consequences lady!

Dr. Bowers baffled me by telling Jazz to "put her mind into it" and "awaken" her sexual feelings. Does this doctor know nothing about human development? Jazz does not simply have low libido, she has no libido, because she never developed one. And on top of that estrogen kills the sex drive and leaves male genitalia useless. How can she not know these things?

Quote

The fluid that appears during ejaculation may appear clean and in some cases ejaculation may cease. Sex drive will decrease and may be lost altogether. Exertion of the penis may become increasingly difficult to achieve and to sustain. Some softening of the penis and scrotal tissue will occur. The testes become damaged after a period of 2-5 years and irreversible sterility occurs. It will also increase and redistribute body fat to thighs, buttocks and breasts. Muscle mass may soften, weight gain occurs. Body hair will soften and growth will slow. Even emotions may be affected, mood swings, affect ability to cope, may develop osteoporosis later in life, which may lead to fragile bones.

Edited January 24, 2018 by janedi

[janedi]

17 minutes ago, gingerella said:

@janedi, I'm not sure you are aware of this or not, but @J. Matazz is our resident trans woman in this thread area and we are fortunate to have her firsthand perspective of the trans experience - and her willingness to share that with us freely - and in particular the issues being discussed in this thread. She is also a friend of the Jennings family. Therefore, when she says something, it would seem that a certain level of respect should be given to her comments since they come from firsthand experience, as opposed to book knowledge, as it were. No matter how much book reading an individual does, it does not, not ever will replace actual firsthand experience knowledge from someone who has lived that particular situation. 

I'm not sure what it is I said that you are responding to. However even if she is a transwoman and knows Jazz's family, that doesn't mean she is right about everything she says. Unless she transitioned at Jazz's age how can you compare her situation to Jazz's?  She implied that the show is exaggerating Jazz's issues, And I simply responded that the issues the show claims Jazz is having make perfect sence when you consider biological facts. The doctors on the show are all saying the exact same things I am. Even Jazz herself said it.

Edited January 24, 2018 by janedi

[J. Matazz]

1 hour ago, janedi said:

I have already explained this in the last thread. Giving HRT to a pre-pubescent child is not a substitution for puberty. I'm sorry if that offends you, but this is a biological fact. Puberty starts in the brain and the brain plays a huge role in development. Blocking puberty is also blocking the brain from doing what its suppose to. So no, estrogen has not and never will give Jazz a sex drive. In fact estrogen has most likely dulled her already non-existent sex drive even further. If you do a google search you can see trans people all over the internet talking about how estrogen has reduced their sex drives.

I already explained this as well.  The "others" you refer to were probably blocked after they were further along in puberty. A 13 year old boy might still look very much like a child and have an unbroken voice, but is 1 year or 2 into his puberty. The sexual feelings and genital development comes first in male puberty. Then the more masculine features arrive.

All the doctors on the show have mentioned that Jazz is the most suppressed they've seen. You are completely disregarding that. Jazz was blocked at age 11 at the very beginning of puberty. Had they blocked her even 6 months later, she might have had some development down there and a bit of a sex drive, and still looked pre-pubescent on the outside.

Just look at Jazz's brothers when they were about 13 years years old. They could have easily passed for girls at that age, even after starting puberty.  The timing of puberty is usually genetic, so Jazz would have followed the same pattern

3

I respectfully disagree that no same-gonadal puberty results in no sex drive, given a hypothetical reverse context: If you have someone in Jazz's shoes transitioning to male, does that teen have no sex drive? Our likely difference is colloquial (my usage, for the lack of something more accurate, yet simple to convey) against scientific use of the term in prior posts concerning puberty, and that really is my err for a lack of clarity in differentiating the two since often times I will veer into science. There's naturally some overlap between HRT and a gonadal puberty, in such items such as facial development effects, breast development (in estrogen), voice change (in testosterone) and so on. The glaring difference, as we can surely agree, is that presumably the estrogen implants do not give a rise to LH and FSH, given GnRH agonists (blockers) typically given along with it, to name one immediate example. 

I obviously can't speak for when Jazz hit Tanner II in a male puberty, if she hit it at all. I mention this because it is the typical criterion for at minimum blockade these days, but the others I reference here did so at age 12. Interesting point to bring up her brothers though at point of development though, that has some really fascinating merit at the point of action on a number of levels beyond drive. Which raises to me: Do you believe she would have a drive after surgery, long-term? After all, there will be no more blockers at that point, and the adrenal gland still produces a touch of testosterone, of which will be unblocked. For that reason, I'm inclined to believe so, personally.

Edited January 24, 2018 by J. Matazz

[brilliantbreakfast]

8 hours ago, J. Matazz said:

Really liked the scene between Jackie and Jazz tonight. Always been a great relationship between the two of them, tonight it seemed like a stepping stone towards becoming a woman of age on Jazz's end. Probably my favorite part of the show, honestly, since it was so unexpected. Speaking of unexpected, the rafting boat capsized during the trip, cut for the airing, unfortunately. Think that would've been a welcome candid moment for such a serious episode elsewhere. For better or worse, I totally relate to Jeanette not telling Greg about the Dr. Ting OR (given how much Jazz's surgery is discussed, I can't believe Sander and Griffen didn't know what that meant) possibility--just genuinely worried about bothering people more than anything else, just to keep the status quo with some family members, you know? Also loved Ari's talks as always. She seems like she's become quite mature since the series began, always a voice of calm reason through the storm, and eloquent while doing so. Always a joy to see her in a given episode.

 

@J. Matazz:  First -- I am so glad you are in this forum.  Your insights are really valuable towards fostering understanding.  I'm quoting this part of your post because I also loved this scene tonight.  My sense is that Jazz' grandparents are the voice of reason in this family and the only ones with some distance -- and the knowledge -- about what Jazz' situation means in the larger picture.  Jazz is so lucky to have such smart, educated, and yes, cool, grandparents.   

Sometimes I'm tempted to think that Jazz is not trans, but a kind of gender-fluid, and that Jeannette is doing some kind of weird Munchhausen-by-proxy thing.  It's only when Jack and Jacky come into the picture that I feel confident that no one is manipulating this child into this.  

Quote

I totally relate to Jeanette not telling Greg about the Dr. Ting OR (given how much Jazz's surgery is discussed, I can't believe Sander and Griffen didn't know what that meant) possibility--just genuinely worried about bothering people more than anything else, just to keep the status quo with some family members, you know? 

This strikes me as a slippery slope.  Simply having a child like Jazz can put a strain on a marriage, and this couple has done an admirable job of it.  But the minute you start keeping secrets, you create a schism where there is Jeannette/Jazz on one side and Greg and the other kids on the other.  The family vacations seem to go a long way towards helping to keep that from happening, but the twins especially clearly have rumblings about "Why does everything have to be about Jazz?"

Obviously I don't know this family and I recognize that what we see on TV is carefully edited.  But its cohesiveness is having a few cracks showing and I hope they can work through this.

[Caracoa1]

I did feel for the twins... everything in their lives has revolved around what is best for Jazz...as for Jazz turning 18 in October...yes...she will be an adult and can make her own decisions...but is she prepared to financially support those decisions?  Granted...she is very spoiled...and that is on her parents.

[MegD]

8 hours ago, janedi said:

The twins have probably had to deal with disappointment all their lives.

The twins were absolutely pissed this time and couldn't hide it. Bravo to them for sticking up for themselves, even if they got steamrolled, per usual.

 

3 hours ago, brilliantbreakfast said:

Sometimes I'm tempted to think that Jazz is not trans, but a kind of gender-fluid, and that Jeannette is doing some kind of weird Munchhausen-by-proxy thing. 

I get that sense as well from time to time. Clearly when they were talking to Dr. Bowers (sorry but calling her "Marci" is just rude, she's your daughter's physician, not her friend and she's worked hard to become said physician), Jeanette was quick to gloss over last week's shrink discussion. Was Jeanette even listening to what the shrink said? She flat out told Jeanette that she wasn't just going to sign off on a letter for Jazz and that she saw some areas of concern that may indicate that Jazz is not ready for surgery yet but Jeanette told Dr. Bowers that the letter was all but written. I also think she's sold Jazz on this idea of "just one visit and you'll get your letter" just like she seems to have gone along with the hypnotherapy is a magic cure-all for over eating. I sincerely hope that the family member that's a shrink isn't going to be providing a letter. The longer this goes on, the more I am concerned that the bottom surgery storyline is being driven by Jeanette and not by Jazz. Jazz isn't doing the basic things that Dr. Bowers is asking of her to prepare for surgery and is incredibly resistant to anything outside of her fantasy version of how the surgery should go. In reality, it's going to probably be uncomfortable, painful at times, and not always easy. Jazz doesn't seem to be ready for that reality and if so, she's not ready for that surgery.

[winsomeone]

Why is Jazz so against talking to a therapist I wonder? She seems willing to discuss her genitals  in detail with anyone , any time, and on national TV.  Is she afraid the therapist will discover she isn't all that sure about bottom surgery, or even being a trans? What else could it be?

[calpurnia99]

Yeah when Jazz said " I have to go to therapy and it's going to be annoying" when then she admits she has depression and anxiety and a binge eating disorder. That's what therapy is for, to help with these problems. 

Like Greg says, this is a long, long process. She is so immature that she is not ready for this process. I think maybe she would feel better if she decided to wait 5 years and revisit this. After college. And the doctors might even know more in 5 years and there may be new options. She does not have to be the first and be so young to do this.  In my opinion, she has lived her whole life with these parts, and it is awful for her, but wait a few years, it will go by quickly, in fact don't think about it all for a few years and live your life, go to college and grow up.  Is this such a bad option? 

Then after college take the gap year. Have your parents support you and live at home for the year or two the process takes.  You won't be dilating in your dorm room etc.  She is not ready to face all of this and her dad knows it.

[Adiba]

4 hours ago, brilliantbreakfast said:

@J. Matazz:  First -- I am so glad you are in this forum.  Your insights are really valuable towards fostering understanding.  I'm quoting this part of your post because I also loved this scene tonight.  My sense is that Jazz' grandparents are the voice of reason in this family and the only ones with some distance -- and the knowledge -- about what Jazz' situation means in the larger picture.  Jazz is so lucky to have such smart, educated, and yes, cool, grandparents.   

Sometimes I'm tempted to think that Jazz is not trans, but a kind of gender-fluid, and that Jeannette is doing some kind of weird Munchhausen-by-proxy thing.  It's only when Jack and Jacky come into the picture that I feel confident that no one is manipulating this child into this.  

This strikes me as a slippery slope.  Simply having a child like Jazz can put a strain on a marriage, and this couple has done an admirable job of it.  But the minute you start keeping secrets, you create a schism where there is Jeannette/Jazz on one side and Greg and the other kids on the other.  The family vacations seem to go a long way towards helping to keep that from happening, but the twins especially clearly have rumblings about "Why does everything have to be about Jazz?"

Obviously I don't know this family and I recognize that what we see on TV is carefully edited.  But its cohesiveness is having a few cracks showing and I hope they can work through this.

Yes, keeping secrets about important things such as your daughter's possible surgery is not a good idea in a relationship, imo. 

Jazz even said herself when discussing the expanders that she is "not ready." Jeanette should take this statement seriously--coupled with the fact that Jazz does not want to go to therapy. I do wonder about Jeanette and what she will occupy herself with once Jazz has had surgery and is fully recovered. Will she allow Jazz to have her own life as an adult-- independent of her? I have a feeling Jeanette's "empty nest syndrome" will be quite acute.

There may be some exaggeration of topics on the show for a storyline or for awareness/educational purposes, however, Jazz is a real transgender teen, not just an actor playing one on TV. The show and its "reality" do in fact affect "real" reality and relationships. (Not to get too metaphysical here,lol)

Edited January 24, 2018 by Adiba
clarity

[stacyasp]

34 minutes ago, winsomeone said:

Why is Jazz so against talking to a therapist I wonder? She seems willing to discuss her genitals  in detail with anyone , any time, and on national TV.  Is she afraid the therapist will discover she isn't all that sure about bottom surgery, or even being a trans? What else could it be?

They are so threatened by anyone who isn’t on board with jazz’s maturity, transition, readiness for surgery etc...all options must be explored through therapy even if  that meant perhaps jazz isn’t really transgender.  Because there have been many kids who go through puberty and realize that their disconnect with their biological gender reconciles and they do not transition. 

[Madding crowd]

Jazz seemed very bratty when she was arguing with her dad in the car. Being transgender does not mean her opinions, wants and needs are above the needs of anyone else in the family. Her father will be paying for the surgery and her mother and family will be taking care of her. Personally, I would be really scared to have my child be the few of any kind of surgery. I also don't think it's fair to change a family vacation so she can get yet another medical opinion.

When Jeanette was on the phone with Debbie regarding the second letter, were they implying cousin Debbie would be providing the first letter? That is completely unethical. I'm not surprised Jazz doesn't want to go to therapy; many teenagers are reluctant to tell all of their feelings to anyone, much less a doctor. I hope someone, anyone can get it through to Jazz that doing experimental surgery can have unpredictable consequences and that a huge chunk of her life will be possibly placed on hold during her recovery. I would not let my child have this surgery until they are 18. To me, 16 is to young to really understand the downside and consequences. Jazz seems concerned about how something like a tissue expander would affect her life, but she should also be concerned about the side effects and possible pain and recovery of all of the surgical methods. 

I know her grandparents are popular here, but I am not a fan of any parents or grandparents who talk to their teenagers about sex in such a way. Giving information, yes, but not asking if a potential date is for sexual reasons. I wouldn't even ask my 20 year old such questions. The endless talking to her brothers/parents/grandparents about her genitals, sexual libido and other things seem over the top and crossing the line to me. Jazz should be speaking privately to her doctors about things like orgasms, and her sex drive, and then the parents can come in for discussion on surgery. Do her brothers really need to hear every detail? I also think her mother does not need to be in the examining room during a physical exam of her genitals; I stopped doing that when my son was 8 or 9, maybe earlier. 

[bichonblitz]

42 minutes ago, calpurnia99 said:

Then after college take the gap year. Have your parents support you and live at home for the year or two the process takes.  You won't be dilating in your dorm room etc.  She is not ready to face all of this and her dad knows it.

100% agree. I don't understand why Jeanette can't see this. I don't know anything about transitioning but do you think Greg and Jeanette put Jazz on blockers and hormones too soon and now they are facing the consequences of that? I would feel some guilt as a parent. Couldn't they have waited to start that? 11 yrs old seems so very young. 

The other kids are so well adjusted and intelligent. It shocks me because they grew up in a house where everything was always all about Jazz and Jeanette had no time for them. I give poor, defeated Greg all the credit for the kids growing in to nice adults. Thank god the boys had him to do thing with and spend time with. Not sure how Ari fit in to the family dynamic.  I mean, really, they just had a nice day rafting and having a picnic, then Jazz turns  the conversation all back to herself once again and the picnic is ruined. She has serious issues with being the center of attention.  

Edited January 24, 2018 by bichonblitz

[Caracoa1]

Jazz has stated that she is against using testosterone cream on her genitals because seeing her penis grow would be torture for her to deal with..even if it is short term...ok...I can understand that but would not having tissue expanders put in her scrotum growing to the size of a grapefruit freak her out more?

[Granny58]

It must be exhausting to be a member of Jazz's family.   I did like Dr. Ting (?) though.  He seemed very sensible and wasn't sugar coating anything.  

Edited January 24, 2018 by Granny58

[Granny58]

40 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

I also think her mother does not need to be in the examining room during a physical exam of her genitals;

THANK YOU!  I was floored.

[stacyasp]

And isn’t it a HUGE red flag that she is soooo against therapy of any type, it’s truly like she doesn’t want to hear any other opinions except her own!  This in itself is all the more reason she isn’tbready For any of this.  Should never have screwed with her hormones they way they have.

[Kid]

2 hours ago, MegD said:

  6 hours ago, brilliantbreakfast said:

Sometimes I'm tempted to think that Jazz is not trans, but a kind of gender-fluid, and that Jeannette is doing some kind of weird Munchhausen-by-proxy thing. 

I have wondered about the Munchhausen  thing as well  because she goes way beyond being supportive.  Jazz’ father is supportive. 

I think Jazz is smart and creative.  I also think that she is clinically depressed.  That is the root of the anxiety and food addiction.  If she were anorexic, I think her mother would take it much more seriously.  I think Jazz was thrust into the public arena much too young.  Just my opinion, of course, but I think her mental health needs to be addressed first.  Her mom tends to deal with it by giving in to her every whim to avoid her going into a dark hole.  Jeanette  has made that comment repeatedly.  Unfortunately, acquiescence does not treat depression.

Jazz is only 16.  I will say that again, she is only 16. She is a kid. One tends to forget that because she is so articulate. If the depression is dealt with appropriately and at an early age, then she has a long life filled with healthy decisions without anxiety and without a food addiction.  

[gingerella]

2 hours ago, winsomeone said:

Why is Jazz so against talking to a therapist I wonder? She seems willing to discuss her genitals  in detail with anyone , any time, and on national TV.  Is she afraid the therapist will discover she isn't all that sure about bottom surgery, or even being a trans? What else could it be?

I was thinking about this last night and I honestly think it's because even though Jazz likes flapping her gums about her bottom surgery to anyone who'll listen, she does not want anyone to ask her anything that might be outside the carefully constructed boundaries of what she deems the truth. She cannot handle anyone asking her tough but necessary questions like "let's talk about your desire to be a woman" and delve deeper into whether or not she really wants to do this. She cannot handle even the most basic conversations around her eating disorder. When she was talking AT Ari - because let's be clear, she never talks WITH someone, only AT them - Ari kept giving her sage advice and she wouldn't hear it, she just kept whining and complaining about the same old shit. I cannot imagine any of those peers in that social gathering from last week who would spend a second coffee date with Jazz because she'd talk about herself incessantly and never even bother to ask the other person about themselves. Every conversation always goes back to her bottom surgery. If I was her sibling, I dont think I would be engaging with family much given this situation, it's way too lopsided. Even after the boys told their mother directly, how much they felt she neglects them.

[SunnyBeBe]

No doubt there are plenty of risks associated with the upcoming surgery.  And one of the concerns with dad is Jazz's maturity level.  Is she ready emotionally, psychologically, etc. I suspect that is partially what the therapist explore and confirm in their letters.  To me, it's not just whether Jazz is mature enough to accept the result of the bottom surgery, but, ALSO, IS SHE MATURE ENOUGH to accept a less than an ideal outcome?  What if things go horribly wrong and she gets a very poor outcome.  I mean, we haven't heard the worst that could happen.  Is it possible to have rejection, deformity, disability and/or indefinite pain as a result?  An adult may be able to accept those risks, but, can a child?  I fully support Jazz's decision, however, as a parent, I do not see myself agreeing to something that could do so much damage, especially, when she can sign in with her own consent after turning 18.

On a lighter note, I noticed that on two occasions Jazz has verbally stressed what she wants in a partner.  Both times, it seems that she really wants someone who will cater to her prima donna attitude. Last night she tells her grandmother that she's a real handful and that she wants someone to deal with it. Instead of agreeing with that, I might encourage her to think about things. When thinking of a partner, it's often nice to think about what you can contribute to the relationship.  Like friendship, kindness, caring, patience, etc.  It's not just someone dealing with your demands.  I hope someone can explain that do her. I think she has a caring heart, but, she gets in her own way due to being so over indulged. 

Edited January 24, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[gingerella]

@SunnyBeBe, you said that so well, thank you! It adds on to what I was going to say but forgot to in my last post - I think Jazz knows she is not mature enough, emotionally speaking, to handle this surgery. She has shown that she is aware of enough of certain things like, for example, she knows she has an eating disorder (though she barely shows any interest in fixing it, and her comments lead me to believe she is thinking she'll lose the weight, get the surgery, then go back to binging rather than looking at WHY she is binging, which, yanno, requires talk therapy, but I digress!) and she's been clear about how much she loves binging and doesn't want to change that and it's an issue but she wont get help for it. She also continues to run her family around the country shopping for a doctor who will do the easiest bottom surgery for her so she can just get it over with, but she isn't willing to put in the hard work to get the best long term result. Every time Ari tried to tell her, "yes it sounds like a pita, but if it will get you the results you want, why not focus on that part of it, the end game", but nope, Jazz just whines on. She is not ready for this surgery and all the other surgeries after it (because it sounds like there is no way to do it in one go), and if she cannot be regimented about her eating or exercise habits, I dont see her following up with her dilation sessions either. SO...I think this is what her father sees, and I think Jazz also knows this deep down, but she is plowing over and ahead of everyone who dares to question her readiness because she wants what she wants and she wants it NOW. It's really distressing to think they're going to be allowed to go ahead with this, to be honest. She isn't ready.

[Caracoa1]

Is dialation something she will have to do all her life?

[calpurnia99]

49 minutes ago, Caracoa1 said:

Is dialation something she will have to do all her life?

From what I read, yes. But the first few months after the operation it's several times a day. I think eventually it is less than that, maybe several times a week. 

[janedi]

18 hours ago, J. Matazz said:

I respectfully disagree that no same-gonadal puberty results in no sex drive, given a hypothetical reverse context: If you have someone in Jazz's shoes transitioning to male, does that teen have no sex drive? Our likely difference is colloquial (my usage, for the lack of something more accurate, yet simple to convey) against scientific use of the term in prior posts concerning puberty, and that really is my err for a lack of clarity in differentiating the two since often times I will veer into science. There's naturally some overlap between HRT and a gonadal puberty, in such items such as facial development effects, breast development (in estrogen), voice change (in testosterone) and so on. The glaring difference, as we can surely agree, is that presumably the estrogen implants do not give a rise to LH and FSH, given GnRH agonists (blockers) typically given along with it, to name one immediate example. 

I obviously can't speak for when Jazz hit Tanner II in a male puberty, if she hit it at all. I mention this because it is the typical criterion for at minimum blockade these days, but the others I reference here did so at age 12. Interesting point to bring up her brothers though at point of development though, that has some really fascinating merit at the point of action on a number of levels beyond drive. Which raises to me: Do you believe she would have a drive after surgery, long-term? After all, there will be no more blockers at that point, and the adrenal gland still produces a touch of testosterone, of which will be unblocked. For that reason, I'm inclined to believe so, personally.

Not exactly sure what you mean by this? Are you saying if Jazz was a biological female transitioning to a male?

There is some overlap between HRT and a gonadal puberty if we're simply talking about physical changes, however I don't think it can be considered puberty. In one of the last threads I used the example of newborn babies.  When Babies are born sometimes they have huge amounts of estrogen in their systems from being inside their mothers, Both baby boys and girls can come out with breast tissue growth. A Baby girl can have a period because the hormones stimulate their uterus. So yes hormones can cause the body to react in a certain way, but that's not really the same as puberty where the brain is also maturing and rewiring itself and turning the person into an adult.

I think this is why Jazz is still so immature, That's why I can forgive her behavior some times. She probably still has the brain of an 11-12 year old child and she is being asked to behave like a young adult.

Edited January 25, 2018 by janedi

[woodscommaelle]

I get the twins confused, but the one working out with Jazz should be a coach of some sort. He has a certain finesse to the way he says things.  In a very motivational way. 

Did Aunt Debbie say she found someone else for Jazz to talk to?  Because it seems to me then, that she doesn't want to write the letter.

[gingerella]

1 hour ago, woodscommaelle said:

I get the twins confused, but the one working out with Jazz should be a coach of some sort. He has a certain finesse to the way he says things.  In a very motivational way. 

Did Aunt Debbie say she found someone else for Jazz to talk to?  Because it seems to me then, that she doesn't want to write the letter.

Cousin Debbie would be highly unethical if she wrote the letter seeing as she is a relative. In fact, it was a hotly debated topic during the season where she even saw Jazz professionally, that was plain weird! Jazz needs to work out with someone NOT related to her, so when they tell her what to do, if she complains they can shut her down.

4 hours ago, calpurnia99 said:

From what I read, yes. But the first few months after the operation it's several times a day. I think eventually it is less than that, maybe several times a week. 

I thought they said that eventually she'd have to do it once a day, or did I hear that wrong?

[princelina]

My impression is that they are still counting on the therapist who knows Jazz to do the first letter, and Cousin Debbie is referring them to a second person.

[J. Matazz]

2 hours ago, princelina said:

My impression is that they are still counting on the therapist who knows Jazz to do the first letter, and Cousin Debbie is referring them to a second person.

This is my impression as well, based upon medical standards relating to this surgery. I'll explain a bit more following the next quote.

3 hours ago, gingerella said:

Cousin Debbie would be highly unethical if she wrote the letter seeing as she is a relative. In fact, it was a hotly debated topic during the season where she even saw Jazz professionally, that was plain weird! Jazz needs to work out with someone NOT related to her, so when they tell her what to do, if she complains they can shut her down.

I thought they said that eventually she'd have to do it once a day, or did I hear that wrong?

Debbie cannot write one of the two letters, as they have to be by a PhD and MD, although I'd fathom Dr. Volker's Ed. D. would also suffice? As kindly as she is to anyone and everyone, Debbie does not have such qualifications, let alone the ethics and regulations behind such surgery on a broader scope. Next week's show actually deals specifically with the fact that getting said letters is not as easy as Jeanette thinks it will be. Hopefully, there isn't an exorbitant fee to whomever they are going to: Some places will literally charge hundreds for a one-off appointment to write/sign this one-two page letter, others will just want a week or two advance notice, no fee.

Dilating for Dr. Bowers in the first 3 months is 3x/day for 15 minutes each, the next 9 months 2x/day for 15 minutes each, and then 1x/day past the first year. Although, the year is patient individual, depending on if the body is trying to overcorrect and 'heal' the neovaginal canal. Dilator diameter is increased by 1/8" diameter every few weeks for the first months or so. That means from 1 1/8" (starting, purple, or Barney as Dr. Bowers told me!) -->1 1/4" (Blues) --> 1 3/8" (Mr. Mintgreen) OR 1 1/4" (start) --> 1 3/8" --> 1 1/2" (creamsicle orange-YOWCH!).

 

Granted, I'm not going to say my surgery was the same as what Jazz is going to have, although there are some similarities, but the surgery itself for recovery wasn't too bad. A lot of awful, awful pain the first night from nerves being rerouted, and pressure on the redirected urethra, to the point where I was screaming for nurses on pain, ended up on morphine. Nothing bad past that point, 2/10 pain at worst the next day and thereafter, also when I was able to eat solid foods. Only items that might be a touch atypical would be just ice pack application for about the next week, plenty of bed rest, changing pads twice daily, and not much walking. It is in-patient for 3 days though and requires you to be put in a wheelchair when getting out of Mills-Peninsula hospital. That shuttle to/from the hotel (shown earlier this season) sure was bumpy and achey! I mention this because I think Jazz would seem well-equipped to deal with the recovery given her current lifestyle. The day before with no eating with a gallon full of colonoscopy bowel prep to be entirely drunken was just icky. Maturity on any number of levels, well, personally that isn't my place to say one way or another.

Edited January 25, 2018 by J. Matazz

[janedi]

14 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

The endless talking to her brothers/parents/grandparents about her genitals, sexual libido and other things seem over the top and crossing the line to me. Jazz should be speaking privately to her doctors about things like orgasms, and her sex drive, and then the parents can come in for discussion on surgery. Do her brothers really need to hear every detail? I also think her mother does not need to be in the examining room during a physical exam of her genitals; I stopped doing that when my son was 8 or 9, maybe earlier. 

Now see, I agree that the siblings and grandparents shouldn't have to listen to Jazz talk about her personal issues, however Jeanette and Gregg do need to listen and be informed about those things, because they are the ones who consented to Jazz's treatments.

 

12 hours ago, gingerella said:

I was thinking about this last night and I honestly think it's because even though Jazz likes flapping her gums about her bottom surgery to anyone who'll listen, she does not want anyone to ask her anything that might be outside the carefully constructed boundaries of what she deems the truth. She cannot handle anyone asking her tough but necessary questions like "let's talk about your desire to be a woman" and delve deeper into whether or not she really wants to do this.

You hit the nail on the head!

8 hours ago, gingerella said:

but she is plowing over and ahead of everyone who dares to question her readiness because she wants what she wants and she wants it NOW. It's really distressing to think they're going to be allowed to go ahead with this, to be honest. She isn't ready.

It could be another reason why she's so insistent. I know when I'm faced with something difficult I usually want to just get it over with. Like when my dog was dying, I was devastated but at the same time I had this strong urge to have him put to sleep as soon as possible, because I knew the sooner the sadness and the pain came the sooner it would go away. It could be that Jazz doesn't want this surgery as much as we think, but she feels like she has to do it and she just wants to get it over with as soon as possible. When you have something heavy weighing on you like that it is very exhausting.

 

3 hours ago, woodscommaelle said:

I get the twins confused, but the one working out with Jazz should be a coach of some sort. He has a certain finesse to the way he says things.  In a very motivational way. 

Did Aunt Debbie say she found someone else for Jazz to talk to?  Because it seems to me then, that she doesn't want to write the letter.

I just can't get over the fact that Cousin Debbie just so happens to work with trans people, What are the odds of that?

Did she go into that field before or after Jazz was diagnosed?

[Caracoa1]

I'm new to this and I'm under the impression that dialation is necessary because biologically Jazz is male and her body will recognize her vagina as "foreign" and may try to close up?

[msrachelj]

so in the preview she is attracted to another female. do you think that will play into her upcoming surgery? i'm sorry but i'm confused by all this.

i feel bad for jazz and i agree with her father that she is most likely not ready for this surgery as of yet. 

[Granny58]

6 hours ago, janedi said:

I just can't get over the fact that Cousin Debbie just so happens to work with trans people, What are the odds of that?

yes, quite interesting.  I don't know when she started working with them though.  Perhaps Jazz's situation came first, and that prompted the direction of work, as you said.  Anybody know?

Edited January 25, 2018 by Granny58

[woodscommaelle]

If any of the siblings move back to S. Florida after they graduate I'd be very surprised.  Lot of side-eyeing in this episode from all of them (not blaming any of them).

[Dobian]

Setting aside all the medical issues for a moment, this episode was typical TLC fake reality.  The whole Grand Canyon - NYC switcheroo was totally scripted.  Even the twins' confessional where they complained about how unfair it was looked rehearsed.  The whole whitewater rafting trip was like a hundred other family outings I've seen on Kate Plus Eight, LPBW, and those other family shows.  They send the family to some rinky-dink out of the way operation for a group activity because it's semi-private and they can record them isolated from other people.  Jeneatte didn't come up with that trip, TLC did.   They're going to NYC... she would have said, let's go to the Statue of Liberty, the natural history museum, the World Trade Center Memorial, Times Square.  But in those places they're just another family in a sea of tourists and that makes for poor or impossible filming opportunities.

Edited January 25, 2018 by Dobian

[PamelaMaeSnap]

I'm also wondering if TLC is footing the bill for all of this travel and thus they have a lot more say in how/where the family vacations are spent ... The family seems to be comfortable financially (the house is beautiful) but I have to also assume that the medical bills over the years (and just the cost of raising four kids) would be pretty prohibitive ... 

I am a newcomer to the series (would see it crossplugged in the other TLC shows I've been watching and it looked intriguing) and watched all of S1 to familiarize myself with the family and the story and shamefacedly confess I skipped over S2 and S3 so I could get right to the current season (I'll probably go back and rewatch some of the middle seasons ... like, why is grandpa no longer in the talking heads?) but even taking into account inevitable producer manipulation, I am really liking it because I think it addresses interesting and unique issues and I personally find ALL of the individuals involved (family and friends) likable ... 

I do feel for the siblings if they feel they've been ignored (and wonder if that's something that's been more of an issue since the family became a TLC commodity) but I love the brothers and think they're hilarious and clearly love and support their sister ... I'm guessing all three (Sander, Griffen AND Ari?) are at UFlorida since they referenced Gainesville. 

Also, IMHO, a family vacation JUST to go to the Grand Canyon is kind of overrated ... (who said it's just a bunch of rocks?) ... It's awesome for like maybe a few hours. Not for a week, unless you're a family that loves all that camping and hiking stuff and I get the feeling maybe that's not a unanimous favorite activity for all of them ... now, adding a Grand Canyon side trip in while they hit, say, southern California and maybe Mexico, then you have a family vacation. 

[Dobian]

11 minutes ago, PamelaMaeSnap said:

Also, IMHO, a family vacation JUST to go to the Grand Canyon is kind of overrated ... (who said it's just a bunch of rocks?) ... It's awesome for like maybe a few hours. Not for a week, unless you're a family that loves all that camping and hiking stuff and I get the feeling maybe that's not a unanimous favorite activity for all of them ... now, adding a Grand Canyon side trip in while they hit, say, southern California and maybe Mexico, then you have a family vacation. 

A lot of people do the Grand Canyon experience by going to Las Vegas and setting aside one day to take the tour bus to the Grand Canyon, take pics, then back to the strip for dinner and a show.  ;-)

[PamelaMaeSnap]

20 hours ago, Dobian said:

A lot of people do the Grand Canyon experience by going to Las Vegas and setting aside one day to take the tour bus to the Grand Canyon, take pics, then back to the strip for dinner and a show.  ;-)

THAT would be my trip ... but I'd stay back when everyone went to the Grand Canyon to see if I could find the secret pizza at the Cosmopolitan or play some black jack.

[Bridget]

I was floored when Jazz had the audacity to tell Greg he's being "unsupportive about the surgery." (The family was in the van & en route to  white water rafting.)

I understand teens say things they don't mean 27284 a day, but I was stunned to hear that specific word come out of her mouth when talking AT her father! 

Greg is not on board for surgery ASAP for several reasons, as many of you have already stated, but that man has been nothing but supportive during this entire journey, televised or not.

Greg was a saint for keeping himself so calm and collected at that specific moment.

Let's forego the "all about Jazz" childhood she probably had and hear me out:
I wonder if anyone in that family, or anyone close enough to them &  can be 100% honest with them, has ever seen the show and is aware of how Jazz comes across to the general public? I understand (and have worked with many people of all ages) that there are people who truly don't care about what other people think about them. Maybe Jeanette truly doesn't care how Jazz comes off because viewers don't know the whole story, which is true. I'd love to know so much more about that.

However, I can't help think about any unintended bad press or falsehoods that are perpetuated (to the naysayers) as a result of Jazz's attitude and mood (hormones play a part, I know, but only a part). I am not suggesting that anyone who is on the fence about how to vote on any transgender bathroom laws will be swayed by watching this show, but I wonder how much, if at all, Jazz's personality and attitude impacts parents and other people in the trans community? 

I ask this sincerely because I've taught grades 7-10 for the past ten years and have had students of every personality type, social and economic class, along with many who are foster kids, self-harm, have suffered from sexual abuse, are homeless, and others dealing with horrible home lives and other issues that impact them daily, including students who identify as homosexual or are transgender. Of the thousands of students (and their parents!) I have seen every day (some for two hour classes) for at least nine months, no one has had a personality like hers. I've had some real jackasses for students, of course, but I wonder how she functions at school. When students are rude to teachers, it's because they are like that at home, zero exceptions. I hope she is able to show more restraint when she is having a bad day at school than she does with her parents.

[doodlebug]

On ‎1‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 8:52 PM, janedi said:

Not exactly sure what you mean by this? Are you saying if Jazz was a biological female transitioning to a male?

There is some overlap between HRT and a gonadal puberty if we're simply talking about physical changes, however I don't think it can be considered puberty. In one of the last threads I used the example of newborn babies.  When Babies are born sometimes they have huge amounts of estrogen in their systems from being inside their mothers, Both baby boys and girls can come out with breast tissue growth. A Baby girl can have a period because the hormones stimulate their uterus. So yes hormones can cause the body to react in a certain way, but that's not really the same as puberty where the brain is also maturing and rewiring itself and turning the person into an adult.

I think this is why Jazz is still so immature, That's why I can forgive her behavior some times. She probably still has the brain of an 11-12 year old child and she is being asked to behave like a young adult.

However, even children born without functioning gonads or those with lack of receptors for sex hormones (testicular feminization) do manage to mature psychologically, including the development of sexual desire; so it isn't just that Jazz has had her natural hormones suppressed.  She appears to be much less mature psychologically than her peers and this might well have been the case with or without suppression.  

[doodlebug]

On 1/25/2018 at 7:16 AM, Caracoa1 said:

I'm new to this and I'm under the impression that dialation is necessary because biologically Jazz is male and her body will recognize her vagina as "foreign" and may try to close up?

No, her own tissue is her own tissue, nothing foreign about it.  The problem is that her vagina is going to be created artificially from tissue that was not embryologically destined to be a vagina.  Also, it is going to be sutured in place. Cutting and sewing means scar tissue and scar tissue doesn’t stretch like natural tissue.  Just like therapy has to be done after knee surgery to loosen the joint and keep it functional; the new vagina needs to be dilated and stretched in order to allow it to function.  If Jazz were a biological female born without a vagina (it happens), she’d have to do the same thing if a surgical vagina were created.