S06.E11: We Fall

[statsgirl]

(I really miss being able to give likes to posts that have a good point.)

I don't get the whole Cayden James deal here:

• Why is Caden James askiong for money?  It won't get him his son back. 
• Why is he asking for $10 million every day?  That's impossible to pay.  Is he doing it deliberately so that Oliver will fail?  So that he can out Oliver as the Green Arrow?
• Who sent him the information from Corto Maltese and why? Presumably it was Prometheus who killed Ben's son, but he's dead, or at least as dead as anyone on this show gets.  The person who sent James that information had to be smart enough to know about James' hacking abilities, know that Oliver was the Green Arrow, and smart enough to outsmart Cayden James.  @BkWurm1 has argued that it's Richard Dragon but he doesn't seem smart enough to do that for me.  Also it's far too elaborate a plot just to take over the illegal drug trade.
• Why did Team Evil want the port property from the Bertinellis?

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Or rather that he had some guidance with parenting so he wasn't totally winging it

Felicity has been doing research on parenting.  (I noticed because that's what @Mellowyellow had her do in her Four Seasons fic)  But Raisa probably demonstrated some lessons on how to parent with love.

[nitrofishblue]

OH barf, those three newbies are acting like a group of first graders running around the playground all upset that they aren't getting their way. All three are so stupid. I sure hope it is the way the writers are making them. So far all I do is laugh at them and their stupid attitude.

[quarks]

Huh. A decent episode followed by a solid episode? In mid-season on this show? What show are we all watching?

Good things:

1. This is exactly the right amount/type of Olicity - a few bantering moments, a few supportive moments, a camera shot showing us that marriage has absolutely not impacted their bedroom antics in any negative way - while not having it overshadow the episode.  Leading to -

2. Felicity's monologue, one of Arrow's better moments in this show. Particularly the interruption about the parenting fail. I laughed.

3. Oliver not being able to use a little toy bow and arrow. I laughed.

4. William's entire class being adult enough to be allowed out on a field trip with only a bus driver and no teacher. Sure, some of you might call this unrealistic. I call it a fulfillment of a long held childhood dream. More unsupervised kids, everyone!  (Bonus: the kids all survived, proving that teachers ARE just as unnecessary on field trips as I always thought they were! SEE MOM?)

5. The bully trying to save William. Nice touch there, show.

6. The running theme of everyone's dependence on coffee.

7. BEN GALE!  I laughed.  Kinda wondering if that was in the script or ad-libbed - it was funny either way.

8. On a related note, Michael Emerson continues to command every scene he's in. It's awesome. Sure, "I'm going to terrorize an entire city to make you suffer for the death of my son" is just slightly over the top - but this is the same show that had Malcolm Merlyn build an earthquake machine just because his wife got murdered and had one of the city's more prominent citizens build a flying robot suit and then go time travelling in reaction to his fiancee's murder, so I'll handwave this.

9. That's the first genuinely cool use of the Canary Cry we've had since season two (the early episode when Sara rescued Oliver from Laurel's questioning). More of this sort of stuff and less just screaming at each other for whatever reason.

10. Extras! Extras! They were really back in this episode, and if you ever wanted a demonstration of just how much having extras in more than one scene can help, this episode is it: the city felt populated and thus, under genuine threat.

11. I seem to be in the minority on this one, but I like the dynamics of having two Team Arrows - or rather, Team Arrow and Team Not Arrow and Not Really All That Trusting, Either. It's flowing much more smoothly than the earlier attempts to juggle six or more characters in one scene - especially given that this way, each team has the "standard character who can't understand the tech so it can be explained to the audience" as well as characters with a sense of tactics. It also allows for some slightly different approaches, and although I'd tend to agree that Team Not Arrow really should let Team Arrow know that Vigilante is at least claiming to play a double game here, I like that each team has a slightly different set of approaches/knowledge.  (After all, Team Not Arrow doesn't know that Cayden James was set up, so there's a bit of both things going on.) This keeps things more interesting. So far, I'd even say that going forward, Arrow should consider keeping this format.

12. Also loved that Team Arrow and Team Not Arrow are back to investigating and thinking about approaches/tactics/what the other side is doing - and back to arguing about appropriate responses to violence and violent actors. This is what Arrow tends to be good at, and it's nice to see the show remembering that.

13. Also loved the offscreen callback to Elena - it's nice to think that Felicity has a friend on her show, not just over on Flash. 

14. Oliver, if you have to assure us that you know what coral is, don't blame us for doubting your knowledge of biology.

15. But you were back to doing Cool Stunts to the point where even your dubious doubting son thought you were Bad Ass, so, well done Oliver. 

Questionable things:

1. Dude with the TP all over your car: I know I shouldn't be harsh on you because you are dead, but, seriously, if I have no respect for anyone who makes the clearly bad call of joining the city council after six years on this show, how can you possibly expect your kid neighbors to have any?  And that's even assuming they know who you are and didn't just decide to decorate the first random car that they came across.

2. Though that said, I have to ask again: why is anyone volunteering to work in city government on this show? They all die! Is this just a way to commit suicide while doing your civic duty?

3. If Cayden James could shut down the electronics on a small plane, how come Felicity and Curtis could still use their phones/internet?

4. Where did Oliver get this $10 million dollars from?  Just a few episodes ago Felicity had to bail him out with angel investor money. The city rainy day fund? If that, how on earth does the city HAVE anything left IN that fund after the earthquake destroying various neighborhoods in season one, Slade in season two, the costs of fighting off Ra's and the plague in season three, the costs of fighting off Damien Darhk in season four, and all of the stuff in the middle of season three, not to mention the regular weekly destruction, the new police department and the costs of replacing statues?  If anyone answers, "the money saved from blowing up the Evil Island instead of the Mostly Evil City in last season's finale" then I still really want to know how heavy the city's tax burden is that it was able to save $10 million just from not getting blown up for one month.

5. Speaking of financial questions, where did Team Not Arrow get the money for all of their electronics and equipment in the Not Arrow Cave? Again, just a few months ago, Curtis was having to run after angel investors. Rene just got fired. I realize that Star City presumably has to offer major hiring bonuses to cops by this month, but given the tax issues/rainy day funds I just mentioned, just how big of a signing bonus did Dinah get?  That place looked better equipped than the setup Oliver originally created back when he was a billionaire.

6. I know the answer to this is "BTS stuff," but - Thea is willing to suit up to fight aliens, but not willing to suit up when the entire city is under attack and planes are crashing to the ground, disrupting traffic? I mean, yes, in her defense, the city is always under attack, but it's strange.

7. Oliver, if the Flash backpack is annoying you so much, why don't you get William a Green Arrow backpack? Or a Kid Flash backpack?  DC, if you are in such a need to assure us that YES, THESE BACKPACKS EXIST, maybe push them on Barry Allen's show, not Oliver Queen's? 

8. I love that so many characters on TV know Morse code, and by love, I mean, not just hate with the hatred of a thousand burning suns, but question why more characters on American TV seem to know Morse code than, say, Spanish or ASL.  

Bad things:

1. The sound editing/mixing wasn't quite as terrible in this episode, but still bad. Can we get back to whoever was doing the editing in previous seasons, and/or figure out what the mic problem is on that one soundstage? It's very distracting.

2. I know that technically Frank Pike was a minor character, and that Arrow has never really known what to do with the guy - constantly toying with the idea of bringing him more into major plots, and never actually getting around to it. Still, I think he deserved a cooler death than "elevator shaft." Come on, MG and WM. You're about my age, which means that you well remember how unhappy we all were when a certain character was unceremoniously killed off by elevator shaft. Why do that to us again?

3. You are an FBI agent tasked with bringing people outside the law to justice.  Multiple people running around outside the law are currently taking down electronics, killing people in hospitals and sending planes crashing to the ground. Do you a) offer assistance, or b) vanish for two episodes?  That's what I thought.  Arrow has never been particularly great with keeping up with subplots but this one is really egregious. 

4. I was with Curtis up until this episode. Really, I was.  After all, he joined Team Arrow well before Dinah and Curtis did, and agreed to form a company with Felicity and offer her his technology expertise, and lost his marriage as part of joining Team Arrow, so I'm with him in thinking that yes, he deserved a bit of trust in return. Especially since he's also been helping out with Team Flash and Team Legends. 

And then in this episode, after complaining about getting lied to, he conceals something from Dinah. It's not just the hypocrisy here, either: it's that for all of her personal involvement with Vince, Dinah knows Vince, and therefore can help judge if Vince is playing them - something established later in the episode. People's lives are at stake, Curtis. He knows that the Vigilante has been murdering people - it was even a plot point last season. He also knows that Dinah is emotionally involved. And yet he doesn't tell her.

5. Speaking of that - Felicity gets a random call from Curtis asking her to check up on a certain location, and this doesn't ping her suspicions/cause her to suggest that just maybe, Oliver and Diggle should check out that location as well? I know, plot, but also, plot fail.

6. And also speaking of that - I'm having a real problem believing that Team Not Arrow can really trust each other all that much, given that in just the past few months alone, a) Dinah has lied to Curtis and Rene about Diggle and Vince; Rene has lied to Team Arrow about betraying Oliver (and spoke up only after Oliver and Dinah fought about this); and now Curtis has concealed something from Dinah; b) Curtis is still working with Felicity and helping to heal Diggle despite knowing that Rene thinks Felicity is still spying on them; and most importantly, c) They've all known each other for basically a year, or a little more than a year. 

Yes, I know Arrow likes to burn through plot points like whoa, but this has been a major issue in previous seasons with Arrow, and to see it abruptly dropped like this is a bit odd - particularly in an episode that had Dinah understandably doubting whether or not she could trust a long term partner - but apparently not the guy who just endangered her career/life back in December when he spoke to the FBI, or the guy that lied to her this episode. I hope Arrow addresses this in future episodes, but right now, I don't have that much hope.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Felicity has been doing research on parenting.  (I noticed because that's what @Mellowyellow had her do in her Four Seasons fic)  But Raisa probably demonstrated some lessons on how to parent with love.

 I get that. That snot my quibble and what I think is a retcon. It s Oliver saying his Dad held the  family meetings which I don't buy into. I though my comment was going to merge with my other comment.

[way2interested]

2 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

• Why is Caden James askiong for money?  It won't get him his son back. 
• Why is he asking for $10 million every day?  That's impossible to pay.  Is he doing it deliberately so that Oliver will fail?  So that he can out Oliver as the Green Arrow?
• Who sent him the information from Corto Maltese and why? Presumably it was Prometheus who killed Ben's son, but he's dead, or at least as dead as anyone on this show gets.  The person who sent James that information had to be smart enough to know about James' hacking abilities, know that Oliver was the Green Arrow, and smart enough to outsmart Cayden James.  @BkWurm1 has argued that it's Richard Dragon but he doesn't seem smart enough to do that for me.  Also it's far too elaborate a plot just to take over the illegal drug trade.
• Why did Team Evil want the port property from the Bertinellis?

1. and 2. I think he actually said it had nothing to do with the money in the rest of the scene after the clip? I do remember he purposefully wanted money that was impossible to sustain basically to run the city into the ground.

3. Thinking that's the mystery for right now but presumably someone who wanted the city/Oliver to be attacked. It doesn't strike me as Dragon either, but if one of the twists is that he was actually in the League or something (and that being the reason 

Spoiler

Nyssa comes back)

I could kind of maybe swallow it, although him not being in the episode doesn't help it.

4. Part of cutting off all exits/entrances to the city to hold it hostage.

[lemotomato]

21 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

You know what I have to complain about? The CW's Arrow Twitter using the newbies to promote this episode as much as they did last night and now today. Pretty sure they're promoting the newbies more than Oliver. 

I find some comfort in the fact that the replies to those tweets are 95% "We want OTA, get rid of the newbies" 

Like this one: 

[GHScorpiosRule]

30 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

It's fitting since the whole premise of Star City being cut off and held hostage is from the other Batman movie, The Dark Knight Rises.  It's the gift that keeps giving.  Do they just play the trilogy in a loop in the writers' room?

I kid you not, I expect Bane to show up next.

22 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I can see Robert and Moira having "Family meetings" when they had to be gone for a long time or if the kids were fighting or Thea's pony came down with alopecia, like long before Oliver went off to college but the show certainly didn't mention them before.

I think it would have been better if Oliver had said, that he had no boundaries, and his father never had meetings with him, and he wanted to be better, so they were going to sit down, all of them, and talk. If that makes sense.

[bethy]

38 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

 

(I really miss being able to give likes to posts that have a good point.)

 

You still can! The heart is just now in the lower right corner of the post.

[tennisgurl]

22 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

I find some comfort in the fact that the replies to those tweets are 95% "We want OTA, get rid of the newbies" 

 

Almost every single comment is how they're team OTA! I feel so happy! 

[UNOSEZ]

3 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Those things have been addressed directly on the show though? Curtis tracking Felicity has not. 

Not the way I feel they shoulda been.. But you are right abt Curtis and the nanites.. So I'm saying.. If we wanna hash it out wit the newbies.. Let's really hash it out.. Let's have a bottle episode and really go at it and be done with this silly story line

[SmallScreenDiva]

I enjoyed this episode and Stephen was totally right about Emily shining in this episode. That quiet scene with William while they were watching Oliver fight was sweet, touching, truthful ... I love that Felicity didn't promise Oliver will always come home safe. She was realistic about it and told William that as gently as possible. I smiled as she predicted Oliver's moves and totally laughed when she said something like "we'd use an arrow here" (not the "we") and then realized Oliver stabbing someone with an arrow was probably not something any kid should be watching, much less Oliver's son.

I'm surprised how well the writers have incorporated William this season. I mean, the actor is still wooden but he is much better when he's sharing scenes with Emily. That first scene at home was really sweet and Stephen played the little hurt and annoyances perfectly. His "here's your Flash backpack" was loaded with so much snark. Olicity in the morning is perfect. I just adore these two. They take such joy in each other, smiling before they kiss. I do hope to see an actual morning sometime soon ... them waking up in each other's arms. 

For the first time in a really long time on this show, I was worried for the city. It didn't feel like just an idle threat. And this was before I saw the people in the safe zone. I like the addition of the time element, too, because there's not that much time to dawdle — although Oliver and Felicity managed to squeeze in some parenting discussions. I guess at some point Felicity or Alenna will figure out how Oliver was framed and that'll be enough for Cayden to go away? I hope there's more to it than that because that sounds pretty lame. Unless the real Big Bad is the guy who manipulated Cayden. Or maybe it's Prometheus still toying with Oliver from the grave. I'm praying it's not Malcolm Merlyn. There's no logical reason for that but I've seen this show throw away reason to accommodate Merlyn, so ...

What can I say about the noobs? They are cocky, hypocritical idiots. Dinah's dig about being on a team she can trust is particularly hilarious. I'm serious, my enjoyment of the show is negatively affected by any scene that includes any of these three. I just want them gone. I know it's not gonna happen but OMG I hate them so much. 

I'm relishing all the Delicity scenes knowing that they will stop the moment the idiots are reincorporated into the team. It's crazy how the writers can only handle one female friendship for Diggle at a time. With the BCs it's all about propping, so it always felt undeserved, inorganic, unearned. There's none of that with Diggle and Felicity because of their history. It comes across as a real friendship, not a forced one.

[Starfish35]

1 hour ago, Hiveminder said:

when Artemis and Kaldur went deep undercover in YJ they didn't tell majority of the team about it

And look what happened because they didn't.  There were some pretty damn serious consequences for that decision.

[jay741982]

3 hours ago, bijoux said:

I started off the episode thinking it had such a great opener, like I can't even remember when I liked one that much, and then they go an kill Pike and maybe the unofficial team doctor?! Hopefully not, since they didn't name her, just mentioned the body count at the hospital.

While Cayden's reasoning is iffy, the threat feels very real and the ending was damn effective as well. Really, this was such a well crated episode, everything flowed wonderfully from beginning to the end.

 

 

Oooh, I like all of these ideas. Nice.

The b00bs are comic relief, aren't they? Because they seem to be lacking basic comprehension skills. Sure, let's share intel. Oh, Cayden James is holding the city hostage? Thanks, I guess. Where did we get our intel? We know something you don't know! Neener.  I'm actually impressed there isn't enough brain power between them to suss out that sharing the identity of their source wouldn't be a bad thing for the sole reason to impress on Oliver and Dig not to shoot him and maybe kill him if there's some hole in his healing armor.

While not perfectly acted out, William's storyline was nicely threaded through the episode, both the competition in the beginning and then stepping up to help other kids in the tunnel nicely leading to the genetics moment. But dude, what a weird field trip. Am I to presume that there are only 10 kids in William's grade and not a single teacher to accompany them? Maybe this shows how people are leaving the city in droves? And while on the subject, bless you, Felicity, for so much, not least of all for being the first one to refer to him as Will. If I heard her correctly in the bunker at one point.

  

I love it that 1) she approaches him pelvis first so you know something was brewing there if not for the city falling, and 2) he clutches her so tightly. Moar!

GUH they are so beautiful yet so HAWT lol

[UNOSEZ]

5 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

And look what happened because they didn't.  There were some pretty damn serious consequences for that decision.

Yeah they did almost kill my man Kaldur... I feel like we orob have ine more episode of nta being at least kinda bitchy before all is relatively well maybe the two teams co exist.. I dunno but I doubt they'll drag the pettiness out longer... Of course if it continues past that and with little provocation from ota then I'll change my opinion but for right now it's OK.. 

[BkWurm1]

42 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

 

• Who sent him the information from Corto Maltese and why? PrePPresumably it was Prometheus who killed Ben's son, but he's dead, or at least as dead as anyone on this show gets.  The person who sent James that information had to be smart enough to know about James' hacking abilities, know that Oliver was the Green Arrow, and smart enough to outsmart Cayden James.  @BkWurm1 has argued that it's Richard Dragon but he doesn't seem smart enough to do that for me. It's far too elaborate a plot just to take over the illegal drug trade.
•  

 

 

I'm not convinced anyone framing Oliver actually needed to know who he was.  If the goal was to take down the Green Arrow after they saw that he beat Prometheus, which given the packet being sent in May seems to be the case, then all they would have to know is about Cayden James and his son, not Oliver's secret identity.  And we don't yet know what they framed him with so it's hard to judge how clever they'd need to be to fool James. 

But it is harder to know how they knew about Cayden given how off the grid he was to someone like even Felicity until Alena brought him up (which does make her a suspect even though I don't think she's the culprit) but James knowing all of their identities wasn't needed to make the plan work if it was just to get rid of the GA.  I guess anyone that worked on Helix, a bunch of ARGUS peeps.  Prometheus doesn't seem to have been tied to Helix but he was following everyone.  He could have tracked Felicity to Helix and found out about James and passed on the info.  It would be hilariously bad if Evelyn was somehow behind it all.  

I have to remind myself that Cayden sent someone right away to the island after it blew so he's been involved somehow from the start.  Maybe it really was something Prometheus sent as a gift beyond the grave?  

Going back to Cayden knowing all their identities (I assume since Helix knew) he did seem to indicate that someone else had gotten there first in trying to out Oliver as the GA.  Could that plot point be something separate or a clue that all of it could be tied somehow back to Samanda Watson.  Why did she get so interested in Oliver's situation anyway?

36 minutes ago, quarks said:

Huh. A decent episode followed by a solid episode? In mid-season on this show? What show are we all watching?

Good things:

3. Oliver not being able to use a little toy bow and arrow. I laughed.

 

11. I seem to be in the minority on this one, but I like the dynamics of having two Team Arrows - or rather, Team Arrow and Team Not Arrow and Not Really All That Trusting, Either. It's flowing much more smoothly than the earlier attempts to juggle six or more characters in one scene - especially given that this way, each team has the "standard character who can't understand the tech so it can be explained to the audience" as well as characters with a sense of tactics. It also allows for some slightly different approaches, and although I'd tend to agree that Team Not Arrow really should let Team Arrow know that Vigilante is at least claiming to play a double game here, I like that each team has a slightly different set of approaches/knowledge.  (After all, Team Not Arrow doesn't know that Cayden James was set up, so there's a bit of both things going on.) This keeps things more interesting. So far, I'd even say that going forward, Arrow should consider keeping this format.

. 

Questionable things:

1. Dude with the TP all over your car: I know I shouldn't be harsh on you because you are dead, but, seriously, if I have no respect for anyone who makes the clearly bad call of joining the city council after six years on this show, how can you possibly expect your kid neighbors to have any?  And that's even assuming they know who you are and didn't just decide to decorate the first random car that they came across.

 

3. If Cayden James could shut down the electronics on a small plane, how come Felicity and Curtis could still use their phones/internet?

 

 

Bad things:

 

2. I know that technically Frank Pike was a minor character, and that Arrow has never really known what to do with the guy - constantly toying with the idea of bringing him more into major plots, and never actually getting around to it. Still, I think he deserved a cooler death than "elevator shaft." Come on, MG and WM. You're about my age, which means that you well remember how unhappy we all were when a certain character was unceremoniously killed off by elevator shaft. Why do that to us again?

3. You are an FBI agent tasked with bringing people outside the law to justice.  Multiple people running around outside the law are currently taking down electronics, killing people in hospitals and sending planes crashing to the ground. Do you a) offer assistance, or b) vanish for two episodes?  That's what I thought.  Arrow has never been particularly great with keeping up with subplots but this one is really egregious. 

5

I swear I saw SA's competitiveness on his face when Oliver couldn't use the kiddie bow and arrow right.  

As for keeping the two teams separate, I'd be all for it if it meant keeping the OTA dynamic.  The newbs would have to stop whinging about trust but I'd be fine with them off doing their own thing except for occasional big team ups.  

Dude with the TP all over his car.  How about you remove it so it's not a hazard while you are driving down the road and it flies off onto other cars?  

Cayden shut down the electronics on a small plane but Felicity and Curtis and Thea's phones were still working.  James didn't seem to have targeted everything at first, it was kind of random which is why they were setting up the safe zones that weren't connected.  Or maybe Felicity has special protocols on the team's phones?  By the end of the episode all communications was supposed to be cut off so curious how that is played out and explained next week.  (Also, will a wekk have passed or just days?)

@Quarks  Which classic death happened via elevator shaft?  All I can remember is Joey's character on Days of Our Lives. 

Samanda Watson not being around actually makes sense.  She left town weeks ago after she turned the case over to the Star City DA. They just kind of buried the fact that she handed off the case and so had no reason to stick around. If she's paying attention, she's stuck on the wrong side of the city's borders.   

[Hiveminder]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

 I wasn'ttalking about them being emotionally distant parents. They loved ther children no doubt. I'm saying that I don't think they were the type of parents to have familymeetings. A parent can be emotionally attached to their children and still be  lax in parenting. Meaning little discipline, little consequences until something extreme happens. I don't see them sitting down to discuss Olivers college choices or what Robert was doing on Queens Gambit nor Oliver telling Robert he was bringing Sarah and Robert not telling him that was not allowed.  They struck me as permissive parents who only stepped in when shit got serious like Oliver knocking up BM. seems to me the closest thing to a family meeting of consequences e, like Oliver here admitting he lied to William, was between Oliver and Robert before he shot t himself in the head in front of Oliver.

I stand by that it's a sneaky retcon. Or Olivers fantasy and wanting William to belive the best if his family.

I didn’t mean to imply you specifically called them emotionally distant, but it’s an idea I’ve seen around a lot. I wasn’t clear.

I still don’t think the idea of Queen family meetings is a retcon.  I imagine they were more like meetings where Robert and Moira told Oliver they were having a baby and talked about how things would change, or a meeting about Tommy coming to live with them while Malcolm was gone and how Oliver and Thea felt about that.  These meetings wouldn’t necessarily have involved any or much disciplining or boundary setting. 

Moira mentioned as early as season one that Oliver used to talk to her and share what was going on in his life. Being overly permissive and lenient does not necessarily preclude being involved in your child’s life.

[BkWurm1]

I find myself wondering what perhaps could have been going on with Felicity's unaccounted for hand.  

[thuganomics85]

Aww, bummed they killed off Pike like they did.  Granted, Adrian Holmes is one of those actors who tends to appear in every show show in Vancouver, so I doubt he will be out of work for long, but it's always sad when a side character gets taken out like that.

So, Cayden's grand plan is taking over the internet and using things like elevators, cars, etc. to kill the fine citizens of Star City, unless Oliver pays him $10 million dollars each night.  Also, it turns out that Oliver actually didn't kill his son since he was out of town at the time, so now they have to figure out a way to prove his innocence.  Not exactly gripping stuff here.  At least Michael Emerson is still his normal, awesome self, but it is still feels like he is being wasted.

Classic noobs.  After all the bitching about trust and shit, they suddenly decide they're just not going to tell Team Arrow that Vigilante is a double-agent, even though they promised to share info with them.  Hypocrites.  I would say I can't wait to see this blow up in their faces, but even if Team Arrow finds out they hid this, I still see the noobs squawking out some kind of lame excuse, and the show blowing past it like it's no big deal.  Then again, they can't even be fully honest with each other, since Curtis felt the need to hide he talked with Vince for a couple of hours.  And he's piloting the "It's all about trust, man!" plane.  Interesting how things suddenly change...

Don't even get me started on Oliver extending an olive branch with his "Good job, guys!", only for Rene to sneer "Doesn't change anything, hoss."  He wasn't asking to take you out to dinner, guys, just acknowledging your success.  Didn't even have to say anything but just nod and go.  And it is really something coming from him.  Again, asshole.  I want this show to go full-blown evil now and have Cayden kidnap his daughter for shits and giggles, leading to him begging Oliver for help (which Oliver will do, because he's a stand-up giy.)

Felicity's monologue during the final fight sequence was easily one of the best scenes this show has had in quite some time. 

The brief Quentin/Thea scenes were nice.

[BunsenBurner]

When I was in middle and high school if there were 15 kids or less going on a field trip the teacher usually was the bus driver.

Why didn't the NTA not know things were going wrong all over Star City? They had all the computers but obviously didn't know how to look at the infrastructure of the city?

[SmallScreenDiva]

2 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Vince killed the dude on the Villan's team I could never put a name to so he's no longer undercover in the cabal.  Seems he missed his opportunity to take them down when he was sitting around in their lair with them but maybe he was holding out for the bomb's location?  

Did anyone see him kill Cayden's minion? Because if OTA and the hypocrites killed everybody Vince should be in the clear. I doubt Cayden is gonna run ballistics test to check who killed the minion.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

I still don’t think the idea of Queen family meetings is a retcon.  I imagine they were more like meetings where Robert and Moira told Oliver they were having a baby and talked about how things would change, or a meeting about Tommy coming to live with them while Malcolm was gone and how Oliver and Thea felt about that.  These meetings wouldn’t necessarily have involved any or much disciplining or boundary setting. 

When did Tommy officially move in with them? I don't remember that at all. 

Tommy and Oliver were childhood friends and he was over at Oliver's house all the time but I don't remember him formally living with them. He saw Robert as a father. Even so, I would have thought it would be more like 'Hey Mom and Dad, since Tommy is here all the time, can he live here?" And they probably said, "Sure".  I'm not even being sarcastic.

I can see Robert having Raisa deliver some news as well.  Or she just taking it upon herself.

Robert and Moira loved their children dearly. I'm not saying anything differently. I am just saying that I think they were not all about sitting down with all 4 of them together and coming to agreements or discussing feelings about things like Oliver and Felicity did with William.  IMO, Robert and Moira seemed much more the type where maybe over a family dinner would throw out some news or something and say 'Here's what's happening'. Or like "Mommy is having another baby and you're gonna be a big brother.'   Anyway, we can agree to disagree :).

[Hiveminder]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

When did Tommy officially move in with them? I don't remember that at all. 

Tommy and Oliver were childhood friends and he was over at Oliver's house all the time but I don't remember him formally living with them. He saw Robert as a father. Even so, I would have thought it would be more like 'Hey Mom and Dad, since Tommy is here all the time, can he live here?" And they probably said, "Sure".  I'm not even being sarcastic.

I can see Robert having Raisa deliver some news as well.  Or she just taking it upon herself.

Robert and Moira loved their children dearly. I'm not saying anything differently. I am just saying that I think they were not all about sitting down with all 4 of them together and coming to agreements or discussing feelings about things like Oliver and Felicity did with William.  IMO, Robert and Moira seemed much more the type where maybe over a family dinner would throw out some news or something and say 'Here's what's happening'. Or like "Mommy is having another baby and you're gonna be a big brother.'   Anyway, we can agree to disagree :).

It may have been mentioned in the show or may just be something from fanfic, but I was referring to the two years Malcolm was gone. In any case, it was just an example of what kind of meetings they might have had. 

It looks like we will have to agree to disagree, because I believe Robert and Moira did talk about things with their children pre-gambit. Off the top of my head, I could point to Oliver confiding in Moira about Samantha. They didn’t do a good job of correcting their children’s behavior, but Oliver seemed like a handful and they themselves didn’t show the best behavior so that tracks. 

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

Off the top of my head, I could point to Oliver confiding in Moira about Samantha. They didn’t do a good job of correcting their children’s behavior, but Oliver seemed like a handful and they themselves didn’t show the best behavior so that tracks. 

He confided in Moira because he was desperate. It was huge thing that he told her about. They have had individual discussions with Moira or Robert about particular things. I haven't said otherwise. My only point here, all along has been that I don't see them having a formal sitdown family meetings called by Robert like what Oliver had with Felicity and William. That's all.

[DavidJSnyder]

This is probably not what they were going for, but I am tickled with the idea that Oliver dealt with William being mad at him for lying about being Arrow by lying that his family used to have meetings.

[Mellowyellow]

The only semi logical reason I can think of for Diggle wanting to be GA is that he wants to do it for Oliver. Take over his burden and such so his best bromance buddy can have a normal life with Felicity and William. That would make sense as to why he's upset he's not being GA. He feels like he's not saving Oliver.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

[apinknightmare]

50 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Did anyone see him kill Cayden's minion? Because if OTA and the hypocrites killed everybody Vince should be in the clear. I doubt Cayden is gonna run ballistics test to check who killed the minion.

Yeah, I think Vince killed the guy so he could stay ~undercover. Guess you won’t be taking him to hell with you after all, guy whose name I do not know!

[statsgirl]

3 minutes ago, DavidJSnyder said:

This is probably not what they were going for, but I am tickled with the idea that Oliver dealt with William being mad at him for lying about being Arrow by lying that his family used to have meetings.

LOL.  Good explanation.

Family meetings have been a think only for the past decade or so. I ran parenting groups in the 90s when those Queen meetings would have been going on and no one had heard of family meetings.

I do buy that Robert and Moira occasionally sat the kids down and talked to them but if the Queens had had regular family meetings, teenage Oliver wouldn't have been acting out the way he was.,

3 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

The only semi logical reason I can think of for Diggle wanting to be GA is that he wants to do it for Oliver.

Maybe Diggle is finding himself without a purpose these days.  His wife is head of ARGUS and powerful but Diggle himself doesn't have a job any more, and when his arm was shot, he didn't have a purpose. He needs to start his own security firm and maybe then he'll stop wanting to be the Green Arrow.

I think the name of the dead minion was Boots.  So with Vince on the side of the good guys and Boots show, that only leaves four on Team Evil: CJ, BS, Anatoli and Richard Dragon. Can we get rid of two of the n00bs now?

[Lantern7]

Just gone online. Lots of stuff covered. My opinions are unchanged. Still not hating the splinter group to the degree of (Original Earth-1) Laurel as Black Canary. Sarah hung with the League of Assassins to become what she is. Dinah probably has police training in combat. Laurel basically took Learning Annex classes from Nyssa.

And speaking of despised characters of the past, it looks like William is holding his own. Kinda dreading the notion that he's going to be this season's sacrifice for Oliver to experience MANPAIN. BTW, I know that tradionalists like myself would've wanted Ollie's kid to be named "Conner" for canon shoutout purposes . . . but "William" works for me, as in "William Tell." Just something that came into my head.

Hoping that Cayden James gets dealt a blow soon. Vigilante may count, but I feel he's schizo enough to play both sides. If he winds up killing a few of the heads of the organization (Cayden, Laurel-2, Antole, etc.) (do they have a group name?), then steps up as the Last Minute Big Bad, I wouldn't be too surprised.

One more thought. "It's Vigilante. He's communicating in Morse Code!" "And you know that, right? Seriously never figured you for a post-Pony Express kinda guy, Hoss."

[quarks]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

@Quarks  Which classic death happened via elevator shaft?  All I can remember is Joey's character on Days of Our Lives. 

Rosalind Shays in L.A. Law. One of Diana Muldaur's most infamous ever scenes. 

She pretty much left acting after that, though I haven't lost hope of seeing her in some sort of cameo in the Star Trek reboot films or Star Trek: Discovery.

Edited January 26, 2018 by quarks

[Hiveminder]

12 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

LOL.  Good explanation.

Family meetings have been a think only for the past decade or so. I ran parenting groups in the 90s when those Queen meetings would have been going on and no one had heard of family meetings.

I do buy that Robert and Moira occasionally sat the kids down and talked to them but if the Queens had had regular family meetings, teenage Oliver wouldn't have been acting out the way he was.,

Well, it’s not exactly a groundbreaking idea, and who said anything about regular meetings. Oliver said Robert would call a meeting when something was going on. That’s not regular. 

[Starfish35]

31 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Maybe Diggle is finding himself without a purpose these days.  His wife is head of ARGUS and powerful but Diggle himself doesn't have a job any more, and when his arm was shot, he didn't have a purpose.

I could see this. 

[DeadZeus]

1 hour ago, Mellowyellow said:

The only semi logical reason I can think of for Diggle wanting to be GA is that he wants to do it for Oliver. Take over his burden and such so his best bromance buddy can have a normal life with Felicity and William. That would make sense as to why he's upset he's not being GA. He feels like he's not saving Oliver.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

That's why i wanted Oliver to tell William/Diggle that he LIKES to be the GA, it's part of him now. And having a son makes him stronger and gives him a bigger reason to win every fight.
I wish Oliver would admit it's not a burden because he likes the danger and the thrill. However now it seems he's only doing it because he has to. I'm not a fan of that cuz it's a weak resolve... Doing something cuz you have to vs doing something cuz you like to.

[SmallScreenDiva]

This exchange cracked me up so much. You can tell Oliver struggled quite a bit following what Felicity was saying. Even with the "100%" I'm not sure he really understood what she was saying, LOL! But supportive, listening hubby is a good hubby.

(Tumblr credit)

Edited January 26, 2018 by SmallScreenDiva

[MissLucas]

Oh mighty Beebo, I beseech thee , come quickly to this show and bring down your fury paw of might on the cruel foe caurrently causing so much suffering (just to be clear: I'm not talking about Cayden James)!

Felicity's monologue truly saved this episode (maybe even this season). 

And just when I thought the newbies could not get more obnoxious somebody decided to put an emo hipster beanie on  Rene's head, urgh. That beanie stands for everything that is currently wrong with the show. Down with the beanie, burn it as a sacrifice to the mighty Beebo! 

[Mellowyellow]

@SmallScreenDiva I adore how expressive he is when it comes to Felicity. I'd wager he actually had no idea what she was on about but was doing his best to show the wifey he's focused on what she has to say. 

EBR deserves kudos for that scene as well. That explanation was so fast it would have been hard to deliver. 

[bethy]

15 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

This exchange cracked me up so much. You can tell Oliver struggled quite a bit following what Felicity was saying. Even with the "100%" I'm not sure he really understood what she was saying, LOL! But supportive, listening hubby is a good hubby.

(Tumblr credit)

I loved that exchange!

[insomniadreams88]

8 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

Oh mighty Beebo, I beseech thee , come quickly to this show and bring down your fury paw of might on the cruel foe caurrently causing so much suffering

OMG can we replace the newbies with 3 Beebos instead? Attach one of Sara's sonic devices to one of them and make it the newest BC. 

No, but in all seriousness, imagine if we still had Sara Diggle and Diggle got his daughter a Beebo. Imagine replacing one of the newbies whining scenes with that. 

[Mary0360]

Not much to add that hasn't already been praised or derided or brought up except this one ting thing that has been bugging me. Who, when they see their car has been toilet papered, continues to drive with the toilet paper still on?

[SmallScreenDiva]

14 minutes ago, Mary0360 said:

Not much to add that hasn't already been praised or derided or brought up except this one ting thing that has been bugging me. Who, when they see their car has been toilet papered, continues to drive with the toilet paper still on?

Seriously! I was yelling at the TV. 

[Hiveminder]

26 minutes ago, Mary0360 said:

Not much to add that hasn't already been praised or derided or brought up except this one ting thing that has been bugging me. Who, when they see their car has been toilet papered, continues to drive with the toilet paper still on?

 

 

Someone dumb enough to be a Star City councilman, I guess. 

Edited January 26, 2018 by Hiveminder

[TwistedandBored]

I watched the episode and overall, I really liked it. I love any of Olicity, Delicity, and OTA scenes. I can't believe how productive and amazing these scenes are when the Newbies are not around to ruined it. I really loved Felicity's speech the most. It was just beautiful done.

I really want all the Newbies gone.  I dislike Curtis and Dinah but I actively hate Rene. He was acting like it was Team Arrow that did him wrong when he is the reason the team fractured in the first place. Rene's lack of remorse just makes me so just want to ff any scene he is in. Dinah was like, "I will take trust over technology" and then five minutes later they are calling Felicity for help. Curtis thinking he can do anything when he is useless in the field. I can't wait to see them crush and burn. 

[UNOSEZ]

I also like that Curtis has been much more mature lately.. And yes passive aggressive remarks Aside this is who Mr. Terrific is supposed to be so if at the end of this mini civil war arc we get a less goofy snarky more capable Curtis I'm good with it.. Maybe the noobs need some time on their own to succeed and if course fail

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

This exchange cracked me up so much. You can tell Oliver struggled quite a bit following what Felicity was saying. Even with the "100%" I'm not sure he really understood what she was saying, LOL! But supportive, listening hubby is a good hubby.

I don't get why Oliver wouldn't follow that. Oliver used to do computer stuff. He knows what a USB drive is. I mean if he was trying to follow her babbling that's fine, but I hope it's not supposed to be that he can't follow the mention of some of the minor tech speak.

[SmallScreenDiva]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't get why Oliver wouldn't follow that. Oliver used to do computer stuff. He knows what a USB drive is. I mean if he was trying to follow her babbling that's fine, but I hope it's not supposed to be that he can't follow the mention of some of the minor tech speak.

To me it came across as there was too much extra information and it was getting convoluted as opposed to him not understanding the technology. Plus, delivered in Felicity's trademark very fast speech.

[catrox14]

Just now, SmallScreenDiva said:

To me it came across as there was too much extra information and it was getting convoluted as opposed to him not understanding the technology. Plus, delivered in Felicity's trademark very fast speech.

Okay I can see that :)

[tennisgurl]

1 hour ago, insomniadreams88 said:

OMG can we replace the newbies with 3 Beebos instead? Attach one of Sara's sonic devices to one of them and make it the newest BC. 

 

From now on, whenever the newbies start whining and bitching, I will just mentally insert three Beebos that just say "Beebo Loves You" over and over. That would make me much happier to watch their scenes. Beebo is the hero we deserve!

For real though, I just cant see why the show seems to think we will give a single solitary fuck about the newbies. They are just the brattiest, most entitled people in the world who cant even suck it up and work with their former friends when the whole city is under attack, all because of some minor thing that OTA already apologized about! And Dina and Rene already did worse than that! They are just so annoying, are behaving like such assholes, and are so immature, I cant see how anyone could still get behind them being on the show. It boggles the mind. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

3 hours ago, quarks said:

Rosalind Shays in L.A. Law. One of Diana Muldaur's most infamous ever scenes. 

She pretty much left acting after that, though I haven't lost hope of seeing her in some sort of cameo in the Star Trek reboot films or Star Trek: Discovery.

She went on to voice the character of Leslie Tompkins on Batman: The Animated Series. Leslie went to med school with Thomas Wayne and knew who Bruce was and occasionally patched him up.

[UNOSEZ]

24 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

 

For real though, I just cant see why the show seems to think we will give a single solitary fuck about the newbies. They are just the brattiest, most entitled people in the world who cant even suck it up and work with their former friends when the whole city is under attack, all because of some minor thing that OTA already apologized about! And Dina and Rene already did worse than that! They are just so annoying, are behaving like such assholes, and are so immature, I cant see how anyone could still get behind them being on the show. It boggles the mind. 

I don't see how they aren't working with ota.. I've explained upthread why at that moment on the roof it made no sense to divulge that it was Vince was a mole.. Partly maybe cuz they weren't 100 percent on it and there was an imminent attack.. Now if next week there's downtime and it doesn't come up. I'm with you.. And again it was Oliver who really broke the camels back.. After rene outed himself  they still all went out into the field and ollie(still kinda in his feelings.. Which was understandable... Parked them in a room)  which served no real purpose so when they finally moved to assist in a more pro-active way and helped take down whatever bad ppl they were taking down.. Ollie was pissed and said no.. I can't do it I can't trust y'all.. Rene I get it's complicated but fine... Dinah is a stretch cuz is her knowing vigilante is Vince for like a month more dangerous than what Diggle did ?.. I love John and I still think he gets underused.. But his tremor/drug habit almost got Rene killed and did get him shot.. And Rene kept it moving pretty quickly with very lil animosity... And I dunno why he couldn't trust Curtis..who let's be real.. He's been pretty dismissive of and condescending to at times.. Maybe deservedly so but still... He's the guy who saved your wife's legs... And I never got the feeling he really respected him.. But still no reason not to trust him...   So right there and then it was broken.. I'm still sure it'll get pieced back together just saying I don't see it as all the noobs fault... They are at fault and in their own feelings and the snarkiness does need to die down... But OTA isn't blameless and I feel like just because most of fandom loves OTA and never really wanted all or most of NTA they are getting the overwhelming Brunt of ire 

[catrox14]

18 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

But OTA isn't blameless and I feel like just because most of fandom loves OTA and never really wanted all or most of NTA they are getting the overwhelming Brunt of ire 

And I think those that dislike OTA, specifically Oliver, will side with the newbs no matter what.

[SmallScreenDiva]

28 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

moved to assist in a more pro-active way and helped take down whatever bad ppl they were taking down.. Ollie was pissed and said no..

This "pro-active way" nearly got Oliver killed, when Rene and Curtis turned off their comms and left. The problem is Rene had already shown with the betrayal to the FBI that he can't be trusted. Oliver gave him a second chance. He broke it again because he was pissy and because he thought he knew better. Not exactly the qualities you want in a teammate, especially when what you do is almost always a life-and-death situation. 

Oliver had no problems with Curtis, it was Curtis who left in a huff because he apparently thought he should be on the same level of trust as Diggle and Felicity -- two people who'd been by Oliver's side since the beginning. 

As for Dinah, she kept Diggle's secret, she persuaded Lance to lie about Black Siren AND she hid what she knew about Vince, the guy who tried to kill Oliver a number of times. Again, not exactly qualities I would want in a teammate.

The thing is, Oliver offered a clean slate. And it was the noobs who walked away. So yeah, I may love OTA, but so far the show itself hasn't given me reason to give the noobs the benefit of the fucking doubt.

Edited January 27, 2018 by SmallScreenDiva
to take out a leftover word