S04.E10: The Trial of The Flash

[johntfs]

3 hours ago, bettername2come said:

And honoring The Flash when he's done similar things other times right when Barry's getting sentenced? That seemed like a sign too. Also, anyone else shocked Barry's only been late 72 times in the last few years? I mean, that's less than once a week.

See, as Cecile, I'd have been all over that.

"He's been late 72 times, Captain?"

"Yes."

"Does that mean he's good at his job when he does show up on time?"

"Yes, I suppose so."

"I mean, you didn't can his ass for being late, did you?"

"No."

"And what's the defendant;s job again?"

"Mr. Allen is a Crime Scene Investigator."

"And what exactly does that job entail?"

"The collection and processing of evidence from crime scenes."

"So, is it fair to say that Mr. Allen is familiar with crime scenes and what constitutes evidence in those crime scenes?"

"Yes, it is."

"So he'd know that a corpse in his apartment with a knife with his fingerprints on it sticking out of said corpse would constitute serious evidence against him?"

"Of course."

"And yet Mr. Allen took no action to conceal, remove or mitigate this evidence in the wake of the crime he allegedly committed despite being a CSI who is good enough at his job that you have excused his tardiness on many occasions.  It's almost as if somebody planted this stuff to make him look guilty."

Prosecutor: "Objection!"

Cecile: "Withdrawn.  No further questions for this witness at this time."

Edited January 17, 2018 by johntfs

[cambridgeguy]

Quote

And honoring The Flash when he's done similar things other times right when Barry's getting sentenced? That seemed like a sign too. Also, anyone else shocked Barry's only been late 72 times in the last few years? I mean, that's less than once a week.

Yeah, being late on occasion doesn't really make you a model employee but it's not a sign of being a future killer either, especially since it's not like every case he's involved with has been thrown out because of evidence contamination or anything like that.  The six month sabbatical is good enough on its own - I don't care how perfect your attendance is otherwise, normal people cannot just take off for an indefinite amount of time and have their job waiting for them when they come back.  Of course, since Central City has fewer CSIs than speedsters most of the time maybe he's literally the only person for the job.

[benteen]

They said that Devoe was "killed" with a wedding knife that Barry had received for his wedding.  Wasn't that what Oliver got him?  Because it's hilarious to think that Oliver's wedding gift to Barry was used to put him in jail.  Just another thing for Oliver to feel guilty about...

[notagain]

16 minutes ago, benteen said:

They said that Devoe was "killed" with a wedding knife that Barry had received for his wedding.  Wasn't that what Oliver got him?  Because it's hilarious to think that Oliver's wedding gift to Barry was used to put him in jail.  Just another thing for Oliver to feel guilty about...

It was from a mystery sender. Barry put his own finger prints on it when he opened the box. How did the other evidence end up on his person? I don't remember Barry having close contact with Devoe when fighting him? 

[UNOSEZ]

Like, I always thought it was something of a missed opportunity in The Flash that they've never really gotten into Barry being a white kid adopted by a black family when he was a child. It doesn't have to be a HUGE thing, or turn into a stereotype fest, but it is something that I always thought could have been an interesting aspect of the West family dynamic that has never really been looked into. You dont have to make everything about race, but acknowledging that it exists, especially in a world that is clearly so much like ours, isn't a bad thing, especially if it leads to interesting story opportunities. 

[mrspidey]

18 hours ago, phoenics said:

The trial was so ridiculous that I couldn't take it seriously.  That Westallen moment was sweet but how was Barry able to make it so Iris could understand him at super speed?  The writers handwaved it, but ... I guess I'll just squee over it and ignore the plot hole - although I do hope they explain this somehow... is it gonna be like Superman and the aura that extends a short distance from him?

Technically, Barry does this everytime he grabs someone and runs with them. They become part of his much more accelerated reference frame. So, yeah, it's like with Supes' aura.

I have no idea why he had to explain this to Iris and the viewers. He's done it before plenty of times.

Also, dear writers? This is NOT how radiation works. If the exposure is strong enough to make everyone within Fallout's vicinity faint within seconds and cause burns on Barry's skin, we're talking lethal doses here. All those people should be dead within 24 hours. 

I mean...10000 Rads? That's 36000000 Röntgen/h. 400 Röntgen/h is considered lethal (if you are exposed for an hour). 

For comparison, the roof of Reactor 4 at Tschernobyl had about 10000 Röntgen/h which is why the poor guys charged with the cleanup could only work for about 40 seconds before having to leave. But that's only 2.7 Rads, not 4k to 10k. 

Edited January 17, 2018 by mrspidey

[Trini]

19 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

I think the show woulda been better served not showing the trial... I mean I knew he was gonna end up in jail... They coulda had some small flashbacks to one or two moments... But showing so much felt silly...

I'm not sure if it this would have been much better (coming back from hiatus with Barry already in prison), but this is another way they could have started this arc if the writers didn't really feel like doing courtroom/trial scenes.

The problem is that what they showed was silly, rushed,  and/or nonsensical.

 

3 hours ago, notagain said:

I don't remember Barry having close contact with Devoe when fighting him? 

He did when Barry first went to grab DeVoe. I think they made a point to show him injuring his hand, and that's where DeVoe got Barry's blood/skin to plant as evidence.

[phoenics]

6 hours ago, quarks said:

That, and Black Lightning gave us a number of intelligent, capable black women, with their own agendas and plotlines, all, even the high schooler, portrayed as having the right to make their own decisions or at the very least, contribute to the discussion about decisions that impact their lives. Even the bad guys were like, NO, Stalker Dude, NO.

Meanwhile, over on Flash, Cecile is portrayed as completely incompetent.  And once again, Flash had Iris putting Barry's wants/desires/emotional needs (to feel that he's protecting his family and not committing perjury) above her own wants/desires/emotional needs.  It would be one thing if this was a one time event, but it really, really isn't.  Throw in the scene where black cop Joe has to be lectured on ethics by white ex-cop Ralph and the scene where the Hispanic guy and the woman can't stop the bad guy without the white guy's help, and talk about a study in contrasts. One not in Flash's favor. 

Yikes - when you put it that way, it's even worse!

5 hours ago, johntfs said:

See, as Cecile, I'd have been all over that.

"He's been late 72 times, Captain?"

"Yes."

"Does that mean he's good at his job when he does show up on time?"

"Yes, I suppose so."

"I mean, you didn't can his ass for being late, did you?"

"No."

"And what's the defendant;s job again?"

"Mr. Allen is a Crime Scene Investigator."

"And what exactly does that job entail?"

"The collection and processing of evidence from crime scenes."

"So, is it fair to say that Mr. Allen is familiar with crime scenes and what constitutes evidence in those crime scenes?"

"Yes, it is."

"So he'd know that a corpse in his apartment with a knife with his fingerprints on it sticking out of said corpse would constitute serious evidence against him?"

"Of course."

"And yet Mr. Allen took no action to conceal, remove or mitigate this evidence in the wake of the crime he allegedly committed despite being a CSI who is good enough at his job that you have excused his tardiness on many occasions.  It's almost as if somebody planted this stuff to make him look guilty."

Prosecutor: "Objection!"

Cecile: "Withdrawn.  No further questions for this witness at this time."

YES!!  Aside from the fact that I don't think Cecile could have redressed the witness since she'd already done cross examination (opposing council can redress, but you can't redress after the other side redresses, right?

But YES - if they had just done this to make it look like Barry had a chance - that way we would have felt some tension.  I feel like they wasted that amazing twist at the end of the winter finale with this crappy trial.  If they had just had Cecile do the above and then also push back on Marlize's BS testimony about Dominic they could have played it like there was hope, and then the huge letdown when he's convicted.  

Ugh.

[Trini]

Quote

Meanwhile, over on Flash, Cecile is portrayed as completely incompetent. 

I hate it when they have to dumb down everyone to get to a plot point.

Quote

... And once again, Flash had Iris putting Barry's wants/desires/emotional needs (to feel that he's protecting his family and not committing perjury) above her own wants/desires/emotional needs.  It would be one thing if this was a one time event, but it really, really isn't.  

It wasn't a his needs vs. her needs situation. It was going to affect more than just them (as explicitly stated). Maybe telling everyone his secret identity would clear him of this crime, but it would have caused more problems if it got out publicly.

Quote

Throw in the scene where black cop Joe has to be lectured on ethics by white ex-cop Ralph

Did he lecture him? He shared his experience of going down the same path that Joe was considering in the one scene where Ralph was actually relevant.

Quote

and the scene where the Hispanic guy and the woman can't stop the bad guy without the white guy's help, and talk about a study in contrasts.

The Flash is the titular hero, he's saving the day 95% of the time. Sidekicks almost getting the bad guy is typical of these shows. (Or is the problem that the woman and Hispanic guy shouldn't be sidekicks?) But the Cisco and Caitlin did do some successful superheroing in just the previous episode.

[Terrafamilia]

In addition to all of the above I found it weird that the hallway outside of a high profile murder trail was conveniently empty, not once, but twice during the proceedings.

[Rachel RSL]

4 hours ago, mrspidey said:

I have no idea why he had to explain this to Iris and the viewers. He's done it before plenty of times.

 

Except...he hasn't. Which is why Iris asked him how he was doing it. And why Barry himself responded "I don't know."

10 hours ago, bettername2come said:

 Also, anyone else shocked Barry's only been late 72 times in the last few years? I mean, that's less than once a week.

Which reminds me, how do they know he's been late exactly 72 times? Is there somebody there taking attendance every morning or something?

[SnoGirl]

I wish this show was playing the long con, or pulling a Leverage. I think they missed a real opportunity this episode to show how smart Team Flash was. 

In the moment when Iris and Barry spoke in the courtroom, I wish they pulled a flashback to when Iris and Barry got the knife and have them put together how DeVoe was going to frame Barry. We could see a moment where they tell Captain Sighn about their plan and that Barry is the Flash. He doesnt like it but he agrees. We see Team Flash plotting together. They dont know why DeVoe wants Barry in jail, but they begrudgingly decide its the best plan. Cecile offers to be his lawyer, knowing she has to do a shitty job to convince DeVoe they dont know whats going on. We flashfoward to Iris comforting Barry and promises him to keep him up to date in jail. They kiss, and Barry sits back down.

I hate in a team of super smart people, they are constantly playing defense, except occasionally Cisco with the suits. I know the Thinker is super smart, but come on. They need a criminal on the team who thinks in more shades of gray than Team Flash. Maybe they could gain some ground faster with the big bads.

Arent they supposed to use that machine fighting the Thinker? Why havent they played with it yet?

Man I really hope Iris throws down. I want her to take down the Thinker more than I want Barry to.

[Cthulhudrew]

On tonight's episode of The Flash, Barry Allen meets the one foe he can't outrun- the swift, swift, (wayyyy too swift) hands of Central City's Justice System!!

 

(Anyone want to take bets as to whether we'll see a Shawshank-esque "So was Barry Allen" scrawl under the "Henry Allen Was Here" in the prison cell when Barry finally gets free?)

On 1/16/2018 at 6:01 PM, Rachel RSL said:

This show drives me crazy sometimes. And is Cecile the worst lawyer ever? She had no further questions? How about asking for details of when they met? Details about his father's illness? Calling him in to testify? Hell, calling his (probably not dead) father in to testify? And don't even get me started on the jury totally buying her explanation. Not one single person thought it was even slightly shady that she's hooking up with a hot, young dude right after her husband was murdered? Come ON. 

Not only that, but no defense whatsoever? Even if they couldn't make him say he was the Flash, surely Team Flash had enough evidence they could have provided to help raise at least the sliver of doubt in the minds of the jury? Or raise the specter of superhuman abilities having been used to frame him (he's investigated and helped put away any number of metas); in Central City, that should be at least a plausible rationale for reasonable doubt. Geez. I'm thinking Cecile's "leave of absence" might not have been voluntary. :p

Edited January 18, 2018 by Cthulhudrew

[Cthulhudrew]

On 1/16/2018 at 6:50 PM, scarynikki12 said:

I have to give the DA credit for finding the only twelve people (well, thirteen counting the judge) in Central City who don’t know Barry’s the Flash. 

That was probably one of the questions they asked at jury selection.

23 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I am almost waiting for the twist that Cecile is actually working with the Thinker, or was manipulated or blackmailed, or isn't actually Cecile, and is a shape shifting meta in disguise or something. She seriously seemed like she was deliberately trying to throw the trail and get Barry sent to jail. 

When she was telling him his only defense would be to confess his secret identity, I was half-convinced they were going to go down that route with her.

[Cthulhudrew]

6 hours ago, mrspidey said:

Technically, Barry does this everytime he grabs someone and runs with them. They become part of his much more accelerated reference frame. So, yeah, it's like with Supes' aura.

I have no idea why he had to explain this to Iris and the viewers. He's done it before plenty of times.

Except for the one time when his "speed field" didn't protect Felicity's blouse from catching on fire so that the writers/director could give us a "teehee, boobies!" moment. :(

[Kate45]

3 hours ago, Rachel RSL said:

7 hours ago, mrspidey said:

I have no idea why he had to explain this to Iris and the viewers. He's done it before plenty of times.

 

Except...he hasn't. Which is why Iris asked him how he was doing it. And why Barry himself responded "I don't know."

Yeah, he's definitely never done that on the show before. However, apparently this has happened in the comics. My friend swears that Barry has been able to do this with Iris, but only Iris in the comics. I'm going to ask her more info about this. 

[johntfs]

On 1/17/2018 at 10:41 AM, quarks said:

Throw in the scene where black cop Joe has to be lectured on ethics by white ex-cop Ralph

I didn't see it like that.  I saw it as father and cop Joe, who desperately wants to save his son, getting perspective from ex-cop who ruined his own life, Ralph.

Edited January 20, 2018 by johntfs

[ruby24]

Isn't it also kind of nuts that the prosecution never even bothered to establish an actual MOTIVE for why Barry would just up and decide to randomly harass and kill this guy? 

[mxc90]

When the guy was leaving the bank and people where passing out as he walked passed them, I thought his "special" power was bad body odor.

[benteen]

Quote

I wish this show was playing the long con, or pulling a Leverage. I think they missed a real opportunity this episode to show how smart Team Flash was. 

I had wished this too when Barry stupidly gave Zoom his speed.  But this show never has their "heroes" smart enough to play the long game.

Quote

I didn't see it like that.  I saw it as father and cop Joe, who desperately wants to save his son, getting perspective from ex-cop who ruined his own life Ralph.

Exactly.  Dibney was a guy who had destroyed his own career doing this and served as a warning to Joe about what he would become.  Joe was only doing this to protect his son/son-law (yes, that is the relationship) and not doing it for a shady reason.

[North of Eden]

The fastest man alive had the fastest trial...ever! Didn't he just get arrested around Christmas?

Did the jury deliberate in less time than the OJ jury?

I will admit I am worried about the fictional people that got the radiation poisoning. I hope they will be okay.

How is it that Caitlin can walk in to a hospital and have access to patient medical records...she's not even CCPD?

Not enough Killer Frost...never is!

All is forgiven though by my appreciation for the casting director...did anyone else see this incredibly sexy, beautiful Asian playing...Juror #12 (She was at the end of the row) Wow! Too bad she was uncredited. I would love to know who the actress was. I had to rewind a couple times just to take in her loveliness.

[BaggythePanther]

On 1/17/2018 at 1:24 PM, UNOSEZ said:

Like, I always thought it was something of a missed opportunity in The Flash that they've never really gotten into Barry being a white kid adopted by a black family when he was a child. It doesn't have to be a HUGE thing, or turn into a stereotype fest, but it is something that I always thought could have been an interesting aspect of the West family dynamic that has never really been looked into. You dont have to make everything about race, but acknowledging that it exists, especially in a world that is clearly so much like ours, isn't a bad thing, especially if it leads to interesting story opportunities. 

Taking response to the Lightning Rod thread.

 

16 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Except for the one time when his "speed field" didn't protect Felicity's blouse from catching on fire so that the writers/director could give us a "teehee, boobies!" moment. :(

Kara’s blouse caught on fire too. I’m sensing a pattern here.

[johntfs]

3 hours ago, North of Eden said:

How is it that Caitlin can walk in to a hospital and have access to patient medical records...she's not even CCPD?

Actually, CCPD wouldn't have access to patient medical records.  However, if Caitlin is an honest-to-McSteamy medical doctor with privileges at that hospital (somehow because wasn't she tending bar in the last real job she had?) then she could potentially access medical records.

Edited January 18, 2018 by johntfs

[phoenics]

2 minutes ago, johntfs said:

Actually, CCPD wouldn't have access to patient medical records.  However, if Caitlin is an honest-to-McStreamy medical doctor with privileges at that hospital (somehow because wasn't she tending bar in the last real job she had?) then she could potentially access medical records.

But isn't she also still wanted?  That's how she became KF in the first place - they wouldn't take her to the hospital after she got shanked and Julian did the surgery himself with Iris' help.  Then there were complications and she "died" until Julian ripped off the "don't change" necklace and she turned into KF.

Speaking of necklaces - can't they make her another one?

This show forgets its own plots.

[johntfs]

7 minutes ago, phoenics said:

But isn't she also still wanted?  That's how she became KF in the first place - they wouldn't take her to the hospital after she got shanked and Julian did the surgery himself with Iris' help.  Then there were complications and she "died" until Julian ripped off the "don't change" necklace and she turned into KF.

Speaking of necklaces - can't they make her another one?

This show forgets its own plots.

Killer Frost was wanted.  Though at that point in the show, they didn't take Caitlin to the hospital for fear of outing her as the meta, Killer Frost.  Caitlin Snow isn't wanted for anything (that was kind of a sad but truish choice of words, wasn't it?).  If Dr, Caitlin Snow is a licensed medical doctor with privileges at the hospital in question, then she could access medical records, especially if the records in question are somehow those of her patient.

And yes, they could make her another necklace, but at this point Caitlin and Killer Frost seem to be willing to co-exist and Killer Frost is becoming a fairly useful member of Team Flash.

[phoenics]

I just saw a potential reason why Barry was able to bring someone into the speedforce thingee... adding spoiler tags JIC...

The theory is Iris might be pregnant.  With a little speedster.  Maybe that imbued her with SF energy so Barry could bring her into the SF?  I'm not sure I'm ready for her to be pregnant yet but ... that would be one way to explain what happened...

[Cthulhudrew]

5 hours ago, BaggythePanther said:

Kara’s blouse caught on fire too. I’m sensing a pattern here.

That Barry is a (subconscious?) perv? 

[UNOSEZ]

Camille is either a Meta or her and joes kid will be.. And its possible Iris is to and that kid will be a Meta as well... 

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

Camille is either a Meta 

Her name is Cecille.

[UNOSEZ]

59 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Her name is Cecille.

My bad. 

[WindofChange]

On 1/17/2018 at 1:59 PM, benteen said:

They said that Devoe was "killed" with a wedding knife that Barry had received for his wedding.  Wasn't that what Oliver got him?  Because it's hilarious to think that Oliver's wedding gift to Barry was used to put him in jail.  Just another thing for Oliver to feel guilty about...

Uh. No. Oliver/Felicity got them an espresso machine.

[tennisgurl]

I actually think its kind of hilarious that the DA didn't mention that it was kind of weird that a mild mannered CSI and a reporter got a super ornate knife as a wedding present. We know that its not that strange of a present for them (they have an...eclectic mix of friends and allies) but most people dont know that!

[Quark]

Whilst the trial was... weird to say the least, I still enjoyed the episode.

Wells and Cisco attempting to bring out Killer Frost was hilarious.

I guess Barry could get some small satisfaction from the fact that Devoe must believe Barry is a threat if he went to all these lengths to put him in prison.

[johntfs]

I still haven't seen the episode and am slightly dreading it because I've apparently written Cecile trial dialogue that's smarter than what appeared in the episode.  I guess I can always fast-forward through the stupid, though that might end up making this episode three minutes long for me.

Edited January 21, 2018 by johntfs

[Laina]

Definitely curious as to how Barry's going to get out of this mess.

[MrSmith]

On 1/16/2018 at 8:06 PM, Lantern7 said:

Geeeeeeeeeeeez, that was depressing. I know, we know Barry didn't kill a wheelchair-bound genius, but it looks so "real" from an outside perspective.

I'm not sure if you're serious here. I certainly hope not because this was probably the worst-written episode of this entire show, from season one until now. Here's why:

1. Barry would have a verifiable alibi for Devoe's time of death.
2. The time of death would not have lined up with the call to the police to report the "murder".
3. The detectives would have been able to tell that Devoe died somewhere else and was brought to Barry's apartment.
4. There would have been no blood splatter and no blood on the wheelchair, the walls, Barry Allen, the christmas tree, etc. (And where was the wheelchair, btw?) The physical evidence would not have supported a murder charge, in spite of there being 12 stab wounds.
5. The coroner would have been able to tell the corpse was "stabbed to death" after it was already dead.
6. Devoe, in the body of the guy he's taken over, would have been forced to testify that Barry Allen was at his (adoptive?) father-in-law's house at the time, since there were multiple witnesses there putting them both at that location.

The defense's win would have been a slam dunk if the prosecution were foolish enough to actually take it to court.

The other thing that bugs me about this episode is why is the DA so happy to put a cop behind bars? Even if he personally dislikes Barry Allen, putting a cop behind bars stains the entire department.

I did think the thing they did with Barry talking to Iris in court while they were moving so fast that everything else was basically on pause was pretty cool. However, I would think that Barry would be used to that effect since it would happen every time in order for him to appear as, at best, a blur to everyone he's running past.

This episode was so poorly written that I actually - and for the first time - seriously considered pulling this show from my DVR. When I am so irritated by the poor writing that I have to pause the episode 10+ times to bitch about the massive, obvious, stupid logic fails, that show usually doesn't survive the night on my DVR.

[GHScorpiosRule]

7 minutes ago, MrSmith said:

The other thing that bugs me about this episode is why is the DA so happy to put a cop behind bars?

Though I agree with all of what you posted, this I had to point out, and it may be nitpicky, but nonetheless is true: Barry is NOT a cop. A CSI is NOT a cop. He is a tech. He does not carry a gun; does not interrogate suspects. CSI do not arrest; they just gather the evidence and give the results to the actual police officers.

[MrSmith]

On 1/16/2018 at 10:26 PM, Jack Kerouac said:

Quite possibly the worst episode of the series. Perhaps of ANY series.

And yes, beyond there being NO WAY Cecile should have been defending Barry, she is the worst lawyer ever. I mean, Barry has grounds for appeal just based on how incompetent she was.

This is an interesting thought. Perhaps that's part of their plan?

6 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Though I agree with all of what you posted, this I had to point out, and it may be nitpicky, but nonetheless is true: Barry is NOT a cop. A CSI is NOT a cop. He is a tech. He does not carry a gun; does not interrogate suspects. CSI do not arrest; they just gather the evidence and give the results to the actual police officers.

Thank you for the clarification.

[MrSmith]

On 1/16/2018 at 11:49 PM, Rachel RSL said:

Yes, we're watching a fantasy superhero world so we need a little suspension of disbelief but when writers create a fictional world, they also establish parameters of that world and, as fans, we expect them to stay within the parameters they've created. You can't just make up new stuff and wave it away with an "I don't know". 

This was the kind of thing that killed Vampire Diaries for me and (eventually) my wife.

[MrSmith]

On 1/17/2018 at 7:46 AM, Jediknight said:

I thought it made sense for Ralph to be the moral voice for Joe.  All this season, he's blamed Barry for getting fired, when he was the one that planted evidence.  He's blasted everybody, and had an insane amount of self-pity, but working with Team Flash has helped him realize that it was nobody else's fault.  It made sense for Joe to hear it from Ralph, and that despite the DeVoes being guilty, it's the wrong thing.

I agree with you. I loved that Ralph made that speech. The actor delivered it very believably and really invested the emotion of someone who's lived it into that speech. Overall, that whole part was just perfect. It made me like Ralph a whole lot better and I'm looking forward to what else they do with that character in the future.

[benteen]

4 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Though I agree with all of what you posted, this I had to point out, and it may be nitpicky, but nonetheless is true: Barry is NOT a cop. A CSI is NOT a cop. He is a tech. He does not carry a gun; does not interrogate suspects. CSI do not arrest; they just gather the evidence and give the results to the actual police officers.

Barry might not be a cop but Barry being convicted of murder would lead to countless challenges by defense lawyers for clients that Barry's work helped put away.

[Kate45]

8 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Though I agree with all of what you posted, this I had to point out, and it may be nitpicky, but nonetheless is true: Barry is NOT a cop. A CSI is NOT a cop. He is a tech. He does not carry a gun; does not interrogate suspects. CSI do not arrest; they just gather the evidence and give the results to the actual police officers.

It is true that CSIs aren't cops in the traditional sense, but the vast majority do complete police academy, so they are often considered a part of law enforcement. It's not a stretch that they would regard him as such. 

 

8 hours ago, MrSmith said:

• Barry would have a verifiable alibi for Devoe's time of death.
• The time of death would not have lined up with the call to the police to report the "murder".
• The detectives would have been able to tell that Devoe died somewhere else and was brought to Barry's apartment.
• There would have been no blood splatter and no blood on the wheelchair, the walls, Barry Allen, the christmas tree, etc. (And where was the wheelchair, btw?) The physical evidence would not have supported a murder charge, in spite of there being 12 stab wounds.
• The coroner would have been able to tell the corpse was "stabbed to death" after it was already dead.
• Devoe, in the body of the guy he's taken over, would have been forced to testify that Barry Allen was at his (adoptive?) father-in-law's house at the time, since there were multiple witnesses there putting them both at that location.

Some really good points, but the biggest issue? The prosecution failed to meet the burden of confirming that Devoe is actually dead. In every murder trial the medical examiner must testify to confirm the person is dead AND how they died. Since we know Devoe didn't die from a stabbing, it would have been very easy to prove. We know that Devoe died a few hours before the framing, so it would have been easy to prove. Also, if a CSI had testified, Cecile could have built a case around Barry being framed by someone that he helped send to jail. Surely, the CSI would have confirmed the scene was far to "perfect" to be done by a CSI, who would KNOW how to get away with a murder. 

The wheelchair was in the apartment, behind Devoe's body. The blood issue is not as bad because Barry could've changed clothes, and Devoe's DNA was still under Barry's nails.

However, I don't think it would have been a good idea for the defense (if they had actually presented a case) to call Dominic/Devoe to testify. That would be a disaster waiting to happen. The prosecution wouldn't have called him, because that weakens their case. 

Of course, none of these issues were addressed because it was driven by a plot: get Barry in jail by the end of the episode, so that Ralph can be the hero next week! 

3 hours ago, benteen said:

Barry might not be a cop but Barry being convicted of murder would lead to countless challenges by defense lawyers for clients that Barry's work helped put away.

It could, but I think that would be unlikely to be successful. It is about what information was available to the State at the time of the trials in which Barry would have testified, and this would not have been available, because Barry was not a murderer at that time. Also, he wasn't convicted of tampering with evidence or something that would suggest that Barry was fraudulent in his job.    

Edited January 22, 2018 by Kate45

[RobertDeSneero]

I don't think Cecille was incompetent.  I think she just had absolutely nothing to work with, given the constraint that she can't reveal that Barry is the Flash. 

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

I don't think Cecille was incompetent.  I think she just had absolutely nothing to work with, given the constraint that she can't reveal that Barry is the Flash. 

As well as the constraint that Barry had to be found guilty initially to make this silly-ass plot work.

[MrSmith]

7 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

I don't think Cecille was incompetent.  I think she just had absolutely nothing to work with, given the constraint that she can't reveal that Barry is the Flash. 

 

4 hours ago, johntfs said:

As well as the constraint that Barry had to be found guilty initially to make this silly-ass plot work.

I agree with both of these as to why Cecile is not incompetent and why Joe won't hold the loss against her.

[Rachel RSL]

I don't know, people in this thread have come up with a TON of ways Barry could have been defended without revealing that he's the Flash so I don't think I'm willing to cut Cecile any slack here.

[LisaM]

I hate this story line.  Please let me know when Barry is out of jail so that I can watch again. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 1/22/2018 at 9:38 AM, MrSmith said:

I'm not sure if you're serious here. I certainly hope not because this was probably the worst-written episode of this entire show, from season one until now. Here's why:

1. Barry would have a verifiable alibi for Devoe's time of death.
2. The time of death would not have lined up with the call to the police to report the "murder".
3. The detectives would have been able to tell that Devoe died somewhere else and was brought to Barry's apartment.
4. There would have been no blood splatter and no blood on the wheelchair, the walls, Barry Allen, the christmas tree, etc. (And where was the wheelchair, btw?) The physical evidence would not have supported a murder charge, in spite of there being 12 stab wounds.
5. The coroner would have been able to tell the corpse was "stabbed to death" after it was already dead.
6. Devoe, in the body of the guy he's taken over, would have been forced to testify that Barry Allen was at his (adoptive?) father-in-law's house at the time, since there were multiple witnesses there putting them both at that location.

The defense's win would have been a slam dunk if the prosecution were foolish enough to actually take it to court.

The other thing that bugs me about this episode is why is the DA so happy to put a cop behind bars? Even if he personally dislikes Barry Allen, putting a cop behind bars stains the entire department.

I did think the thing they did with Barry talking to Iris in court while they were moving so fast that everything else was basically on pause was pretty cool. However, I would think that Barry would be used to that effect since it would happen every time in order for him to appear as, at best, a blur to everyone he's running past.

This episode was so poorly written that I actually - and for the first time - seriously considered pulling this show from my DVR. When I am so irritated by the poor writing that I have to pause the episode 10+ times to bitch about the massive, obvious, stupid logic fails, that show usually doesn't survive the night on my DVR.

Does Barry have a verifiable alibi for the time of Devoe's death? It's been a while, but I think he was just at STAR Labs prior to getting an alert. He runs home and seconds later the cops bust in. So I don't think he has an alibi that he can use without revealing he's the Flash.

I think that you are operating on a couple of presumptions that are not necessarily true about a) when Devoe actually died and b) how precisely time of death can be determined. 

It doesn't matter much as to whether Devoe was killed at Barry's apartment or somewhere else, under normal circumstances. What matters is that Barry has Devoe's dead body in his locked apartment and the apparent murder weapon was a knife that Barry got as a wedding gift. Yes, if Cecile was doing a decent job as a defense attorney, she would have pointed out that it makes no sense how Barry got Devoe's body from wherever it was killed to his locked apartment without leaving any trace evidence. 

Because Devoe was killed somewhere other than Barry's apartment, there wouldn't have been blood spatter there and so forth.

I might be misremembering but I don't know if it's clear that Devoe's body wasn't stabbed to death. I also don't know if the coroner is going to spend a ton of time when there's an apparent potential cause of death.

Alternatively, we can handwave things such that the Thinker took account for these various things in his framing of Barry and came up with workarounds.

I think real-world juries have convicted people for crimes on way less evidence than the prosecution had here.

The judge's speech about how Barry represented such a betrayal of trust, while over the top, hints at why the prosecutor would be gung-ho to bring Barry down.

On 1/22/2018 at 5:51 PM, Kate45 said:

Some really good points, but the biggest issue? The prosecution failed to meet the burden of confirming that Devoe is actually dead. In every murder trial the medical examiner must testify to confirm the person is dead AND how they died. Since we know Devoe didn't die from a stabbing, it would have been very easy to prove. We know that Devoe died a few hours before the framing, so it would have been easy to prove. Also, if a CSI had testified, Cecile could have built a case around Barry being framed by someone that he helped send to jail. Surely, the CSI would have confirmed the scene was far to "perfect" to be done by a CSI, who would KNOW how to get away with a murder. 

The wheelchair was in the apartment, behind Devoe's body. The blood issue is not as bad because Barry could've changed clothes, and Devoe's DNA was still under Barry's nails.

However, I don't think it would have been a good idea for the defense (if they had actually presented a case) to call Dominic/Devoe to testify. That would be a disaster waiting to happen. The prosecution wouldn't have called him, because that weakens their case. 

Of course, none of these issues were addressed because it was driven by a plot: get Barry in jail by the end of the episode, so that Ralph can be the hero next week! 

It could, but I think that would be unlikely to be successful. It is about what information was available to the State at the time of the trials in which Barry would have testified, and this would not have been available, because Barry was not a murderer at that time. Also, he wasn't convicted of tampering with evidence or something that would suggest that Barry was fraudulent in his job.    

They presumably just skipped the ME's testimony that he examined the body, found numerous stab wounds and concluded that the manner of death is homicide.

I'm not convinced that we do know Devoe actually died of something other than stab wounds. We know he was dying and that he collapsed in his fight with the Flash. But let's assume we do. There's little reason for a ME to do an exam looking for other causes when there are stab wounds that present as an obvious cause of death. 

[dkb]

I loved the West-Allen moment in the Speed Force, ❤️❤️❤️❤️. 

Also really liked the earrings that Iris was wearing in one of the scenes in the beginning with the white dress.

 

Sigh, that's all I got.

[SimoneS]

Ack, this was a horrible episode, one of many in season four. I have no idea what the writers were thinking here. The Barry/Iris scene in the courtroom were the best scenes and that didn't make it worth watching this mess.