S08.E08: How It's Gotta Be

[DearEvette]

I feel like this whole "THIS IS WAR' storyline has been nothing but a sad, boring waste of time.  How have we exactly progressed from the end of last season? Negan is still alive.  The Garbage people are still useless.  And the Alexandrians have lost yet another important member?  I the last two years we've lost Abraham, Glenn, Sasha and now Carl.  Literally the only forward momentum this show is giving us is killing off character at the end of each season just to give us an OMG! Shocking Death!  But storyline wise nothing has changed.

At this point there is a very definable formula that Gimple & Co. are following and it is sad and boring;

- First episode comes out of a cliffhanger ending - Starts out sorta promising
- Negan talks
- Character nobody cares about gets an episode
- Negan talks
- Nothing happens
- Negan talks
- At least once Carol will do something bad ass

- At least once Rick will do something stupid or inexplicable

- A confrontation happens

- Rick sweats
- Favorite or long time character dies
- Despite standing in the midst of a hail of bullets, walkers, general mayhem, Negan Lives and monologues

- Useless cliffhanger
- only about 1 week has passed in-story timeline

[KirkB]

50 minutes ago, Dobian said:

Rick will rule all from atop a mountain of trash with his new wife Jadis standing by his side and a cgi sunset behind them as they speak their decrees in the new language of the land.

Damn, there's an image I'm not going to be able to get out of my head for a while. Thank you very much.  :)

51 minutes ago, Dobian said:

This isn't simply about a major character dying but about maybe THE major character dying because he is supposed to be the future of this world.

See, I would have thought the same thing, except for the fact everyone already been infected means there is no real future for the world. No matter what new civilization they build they will never be free of the undead. It's a nihilistic and utterly depressing way to tell a story if you think about it. But if they want to stick with this general idea, they can just say it's Judith.

[qtpye]

5 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

If they really wanted to be free of the Saviors, and just couldn't bring themselves to blow them all up when they were penned in at the main Savior compound, they could have packed everyone up and left town.  They might not have wanted to leave Alexandria, the Kingdom and the Hilltop behind, but since they weren't willing to go the distance and do what was necessary to take out all the Saviors, they would have been better off to get as far away as possible.

I thought most of the Alexandrian's headed for the Hilltop, and it was only a small group that stayed behind for the ambush on the group with Dwight.  I thought they were 1) buying the other people time to get away, and 2) trying to kill anyone who followed them while Carl was setting off the smoke grenades in Alexandria to distract the Saviors.

 

27 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

I feel like this whole "THIS IS WAR' storyline has been nothing but a sad, boring waste of time.  How have we exactly progressed from the end of last season? Negan is still alive.  The Garbage people are still useless.  And the Alexandrians have lost yet another important member?  I the last two years we've lost Abraham, Glenn, Sasha and now Carl.  Literally the only forward momentum this show is giving us is killing off character at the end of each season just to give us an OMG! Shocking Death!  But storyline wise nothing has changed.

At this point there is a very definable formula that Gimple & Co. are following and it is sad and boring;

- First episode comes out of a cliffhanger ending - Starts out sorta promising
- Negan talks
- Character nobody cares about gets an episode
- Negan talks
- Nothing happens
- Negan talks
- At least once Carol will do something bad ass

- At least once Rick will do something stupid or inexplicable

- A confrontation happens

- Rick sweats
- Favorite or long time character dies
- Despite standing in the midst of a hail of bullets, walkers, general mayhem, Negan Lives and monologues

- Useless cliffhanger
- only about 1 week has passed in-story timeline

The thing is war is Hell and when you declare war, it really has to be all or nothing.  However, these stupid people had Negan and all his officers dead to rights right in front of them and decided to use all their firepower to shoot out windows.  They could of ended this stupid war then and there with very few casualties.  The remaining workers could have been easily converted and it would be mostly over.  That scene made the whole season pointless.

Angry that Carl died to preserve Negan.  This means Negan has total plot armour and will never be off our screens.

[Gobi]

35 minutes ago, KirkB said:

Damn, there's an image I'm not going to be able to get out of my head for a while. Thank you very much.  :)

See, I would have thought the same thing, except for the fact everyone already been infected means there is no real future for the world. No matter what new civilization they build they will never be free of the undead. It's a nihilistic and utterly depressing way to tell a story if you think about it. But if they want to stick with this general idea, they can just say it's Judith.

I don't think everyone being infected means the world is doomed. People have always died, the infection just adds another step to preparing the bodies for burial. I know Kirkman has no plans of explaining the virus. My theory is that it was an immune vaccine that backfired. It prevents almost all illness (which is why hardly anyone ever gets sick in this world), that became airborne and has that one annoying side effect.

[peach]

2 hours ago, Dobian said:

If Carl is really done for then so is this show.  This isn't simply about a major character dying but about maybe THE major character dying because he is supposed to be the future of this world.  Instead, Gimple has turned TWD into the Cult of Rick, going to extremes to turn him into this superhero which actually backfires and makes both Rick and the show more ridiculous every season.  He's become the Frank Sinatra of the ZA, it's Rick's world and everyone else just lives in it.  Who cares about the young up-and-coming leader who would guide humanity into the future like Alexander the Great when you have Rick and his six shooter?  Rick will rule all from atop a mountain of trash with his new wife Jadis standing by his side and a cgi sunset behind them as they speak their decrees in the new language of the land.

It seems to be they've turned Negan into the superhero, and Rick into Charlie Brown.  

 

2 hours ago, Persnickety1 said:

And how is it Rick can't seem to kill Negan, no matter what the circumstances?  It's like Negan is coated with Rick repellant or that leather jacket has some sort of force field surrounding it that doesn't let any harm befall him.  Just stop putting Rick in situations where he easily could/should be able to kill Negan.

THIS is what makes it so damned aggravating.  If Negan is going to escape Rick's clutches, then at least make it believable.  Why on earth would they construct a scene where Rick actually gets a hold of Lucille and doesn't HIT HIM WITH IT.   Rick is the first person in history to use a bat to hit something with the handle.  And the part he's holding has the barbed wire on it.  Then two seconds later, he does get his gun back...and...runs away.  A point I've harped on numerous times because it's so terrible!  He later says Negan's still out there somewhere.  SOMEWHERE LIKE YOUR HOUSE?  And in the big picture, Michonne and company are just standing around in Alexandria and don't know Negan's coming til HE KNOCKS ON THE GATE.  And then nobody fucking shoots him.  There are no words for how dumb it all is.  Chandler will probably be glad he's gone when watches the remaining seasons.

[valandsend]

37 minutes ago, Gobi said:

I don't think everyone being infected means the world is doomed. People have always died, the infection just adds another step to preparing the bodies for burial. I know Kirkman has no plans of explaining the virus. My theory is that it was an immune vaccine that backfired. It prevents almost all illness (which is why hardly anyone ever gets sick in this world), that became airborne and has that one annoying side effect.

There was that time in the prison when a lot of people got sick and Glenn almost died.

[DearEvette]

3 minutes ago, peach said:

It seems to be they've turned Negan into the superhero, and Rick into Charlie Brown.

Rick = Charlie Brown going for the kick

Negan = football

GImple & Co - are Lucy pulling it away

[Madding crowd]

When I saw Negan with Mr. Microphone, I knew this would be a crappy episode. I've seen a lot of comparisons to Lost (which is my all time favorite show by the way), but even Lost was smart enough to keep the lead characters around until the very end. Like others have said, I wouldn't have a problem if Chandler wanted to leave the show, but just blindsiding him like that is awful. Something similar happened to a friend: he put a down payment on a house and then heard rumors of layoffs. Before the house closing he asked his boss if he should go ahead with this and the boss said absolutely, only to let him go two days after the closing. In this case, there is no real reason for Carl to die at this time. Did they want to top Glen's death somehow?

I did think Carl was bit in the previous episode, but then he was acting normal, so I thought I was wrong. I do think it is OK for people to still get bit and die-otherwise why have the walkers at all. But there is no reason for the storyline to kill Carl. I thought the series would end with Rick dying and Carl taking over as the new leader. Now, I am expecting all of the people we knew from the beginning to die and we will be left with all new people. 

I also could not tell what was happening. How did the Saviors still have a huge army? How did they regain the upper hand? How many times will we hear Rick and Negan talk about killing each other and never, do it? There was also one point where Michonne looked really sad and was looking around and I was convinced she was seeing Carl shambling by as walker-but nothing happened in that scene so I have no idea what it is about.

The only thing I thought was well done: When Rick entered the tunnel it looked to me like Carl was holding Judith and so for a minute I thought I was wrong about the bite thing. Then we see that it was Daryl holding Judith and we don't see Carl until Rick gets to the end. I am sad and cried, but also curious in that Chris Hardwick didn't seem broken up and no one will come right out and say Carl's dying. Hmm.

[ghoulina]

26 minutes ago, valandsend said:

There was that time in the prison when a lot of people got sick and Glenn almost died.

I think that was some sort of plague, related to unsanitary conditions in the new world. The pigs Rick had outside were sick too. It wasn't virus related. 

[valandsend]

1 minute ago, ghoulina said:

I think that was some sort of plague, related to unsanitary conditions in the new world. The pigs Rick had outside were sick too. It wasn't virus related. 

Ah, OK.

[valandsend]

12 hours ago, FortKnox said:

Just a reminder people, they're not in Georgia, they're in Virginia and have been for the last few seasons. Remember them going to DC because Eugene had a cure?

Not that matters. Hell why not show DC or politicians, secret service, etc?

I live in Northern Virginia, and it's easy to forget they're not in Georgia when everything looks as if they still are. The long stretches of roads bordered by pine forests, for one thing.

38 minutes ago, peach said:

Rick is the first person in history to use a bat to hit something with the handle.  And the part he's holding has the barbed wire on it. 

How did this not tear up Rick's hands?

[valandsend]

On 12/11/2017 at 1:33 PM, iMonrey said:

I agree too much of this episode took place in the dark. When Simon shot Neil, I thought he had shot Jerry. Then I spent the next 30 minutes trying to figure out who the hell Neil was. And I couldn't see much of Rick's fight with Negan either. Really frustrating episode. My heart goes out to whoever sat through it live with commercials. 

I thought he'd shot Diane. I had to back it up and rewatch to catch a brief glimpse of Neil in the back seat.

Also, it was dark enough that when the Savior was speaking from the stage at the Kingdom, I first thought the closeup of the woman in the headscarf -- shown just before the cut to commercial -- was actually Ezekiel in disguise.

[Kiki777]

45 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

Now, I am expecting all of the people we knew from the beginning to die and we will be left with all new people. 

Kinda like Saved by the Bell: the New Class, but in this case Negan is Screech, who has one badly written reason after another for never going away.

[CharethCutestory]

2 hours ago, Dobian said:

If Carl is really done for then so is this show.  This isn't simply about a major character dying but about maybe THE major character dying because he is supposed to be the future of this world.  Instead, Gimple has turned TWD into the Cult of Rick, going to extremes to turn him into this superhero which actually backfires and makes both Rick and the show more ridiculous every season.  He's become the Frank Sinatra of the ZA, it's Rick's world and everyone else just lives in it.  Who cares about the young up-and-coming leader who would guide humanity into the future like Alexander the Great when you have Rick and his six shooter?  Rick will rule all from atop a mountain of trash with his new wife Jadis standing by his side and a cgi sunset behind them as they speak their decrees in the new language of the land.

This show has lost its way so profoundly that such an ending would not surprise me in the least and is actually not even the worst thing I fear Gimple could come up with to stick two big middle fingers in the eyes of the fans. Carl is (was) the future. That speech Lori gave him as she was about to die that he was going to "beat this world" symbolized so much and Gimple took a giant crap on, lit it on fire and fed it to the wolves. All build up for 7.5 seasons null and void. I can understand never having Carl take over leadership as part of this show. Chandler is still so young, looks like a kid, and while he's improved with every episode doesn't have the chops yet to pilot an hour long drama as its hero. Recasting and a time jump maybe it could've worked. But why kill him off for good in TWD (At least AMC) universe and eliminate all future possibilities where he's concerned? With AMC's frequently voiced hopes for the longevity of this series I suspected something like a Star Trek situation. Retooling, coming back. TWD: The Next Generation type deal with Carl at the helm. I guess it could be Judith but who is invested in that? I always saw the first, original show ending with Carl on the precipice of becoming a leader in the next phase of the new world and the closure of Rick Grimes' story.

The narrative reasoning behind his death is atrocious but predictable given what this show has become the past few years. I know a lot of people loved Season 5 but after the awesome terminus premier and first few episodes, I've felt a decline in quality ever since. Its become a convoluted mess of characters nobody cares about, bottle episodes about said characters nobody cares about, painful, poorly written monologues, Negan in all his "Negan-ness," and disjointed plot lines that violate even the most basic foundations of common sense. I loved season four and thought, wow, putting Gimple in charge was a great decision. I honestly don't know what happened. Maybe he just gassed out. Or four was already mapped out by Mazzara and he had the easy job of simply executing it and pressing 'Go.' 

I've always thought they could loosen up a bit with the comic canon, because some of their best stuff is when they flex that artistic muscle a bit, but THIS? How does Gimple go from treating the comics like its Tolstoy level greatness to making the most disrespectful adaptive choice possible? I don't get it. Unless its all AMC's notorious stinginess not willing to pay Riggs as an adult and Gimple is taking the slings and arrows. Although he's done enough damage himself to deserve them. If they really want to write Carl out let him go help build up another community or get kidnapped by the government revealing that they're still around. Anything that keeps a door open for his return. Maybe they'll be some kind of twist like that but from what's been said so far, particularly by Chandler and his parents, I don't think its very likely. 

[Pondlass1]

It could be interesting if other parts of the zombie brain began to fire up and, as well as the frenzied need to eat meat, they start to reason.  The zombies have become chopped liver now... it's all about the crazy gangs of people fighting each other.  I mean, do they still need zombies for suspense and alarm? 

Maybe a few freshly turned zombies start to think, plan, work together in a simple and basic way to ambush the tasty humans.  Could be interesting...??

[CharethCutestory]

12 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

It could be interesting if other parts of the zombie brain began to fire up and, as well as the frenzied need to eat meat, they start to reason.  The zombies have become chopped liver now... it's all about the crazy gangs of people fighting each other.  I mean, do they still need zombies for suspense and alarm? 

Maybe a few freshly turned zombies start to think, plan, work together in a simple and basic way to ambush the tasty humans.  Could be interesting...??

I like the idea of the zombies evolving. Maybe the virus mutates and those that we see turn now are more aware/capable in some ways than when the outbreak began. Imagine Rick (Or Carl- *sobs* God Dammit!!!) pulling his colt on a deer feasting zombie, could be a turned one of their own group, only for the walker to look up with slightly clearer eyes and say, "don't shoot." What, we can have garbage pail kids who forget how to speak after a year or two but evolving zombies is off the table? 

I definitely think they need to bring some sort of new angle into play. Shift at least partial focus onto the more scientific aspect of things. Maybe government involvement as well? I know Kirkman has said he doesn't plan on going into what started the virus, I don't know why, but the show needs fresh blood plot wise. Finding out the viruses origins or a cure should logically be a major aspect of this apocalypse, at least at some point, no? Its been the same story of gang finds a home, villain destroys home, gang moves on to new home and new villain, rinse and repeat for eight years. That's what I was really looking forward to in the spinoff as they claimed it would follow the downfall of civilization. It ended up being a few episodes of people get sick in a big city then right into the same environment as the parent show. Big let down. Although I must say season 3 of FTWD was amazing. It finally found its way. So of course AMC fires that show runner and brings over Gimple as EP to destroy that too. 

[ghoulina]

55 minutes ago, CharethCutestory said:

That speech Lori gave him as she was about to die that he was going to "beat this world" symbolized so much and Gimple took a giant crap on, lit it on fire and fed it to the wolves.

So well put. And I'm also taken back to the scene in Better Angels, when Rick says "no more kid stuff". He explains how people are gonna die, they just are - him (Rick), mom......it was like a rite of passage speech. Carl wasn't supposed to die. He was supposed to see all those people die and be the one to lead the new generation. I can't even comprehend the turn this show has taken. 

 

57 minutes ago, CharethCutestory said:

The narrative reasoning behind his death is atrocious but predictable given what this show has become the past few years. I know a lot of people loved Season 5 but after the awesome terminus premier and first few episodes, I've felt a decline in quality ever since

Oh, I completely agree. Season 4 was the last strong season, IMO. The beginning of 5 was great, but it really spiraled with the hospital stuff and the entire show has been hit or miss (with more misses than hits) ever since. 

 

59 minutes ago, CharethCutestory said:

I've always thought they could loosen up a bit with the comic canon, because some of their best stuff is when they flex that artistic muscle a bit, but THIS? How does Gimple go from treating the comics like its Tolstoy level greatness to making the most disrespectful adaptive choice possible?

The pendulum just swings from one extreme to another, there is no middle ground. They either adhere to the comic so closely that it's like we're watching a damn cartoon, or they just haul off and do something so crazy that it makes no fucking sense. 

[stormy weather]

2 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

I did think Carl was bit in the previous episode, but then he was acting normal, so I thought I was wrong. I do think it is OK for people to still get bit and die-otherwise why have the walkers at all. But there is no reason for the storyline to kill Carl. I thought the series would end with Rick dying and Carl taking over as the new leader. Now, I am expecting all of the people we knew from the beginning to die and we will be left with all new people.

I wish I could've been in the writers' room when someone said "listen all y'all, I have a genius idea. Why don't we kill Carl?" because I honestly can't believe no one said "but why though" since, I agree, plot-wise it makes absolutely no sense. But yeah, I think the new guy (can't remember his name) Coral died for (maybe?) might take center stage next season.

It seems to me like at this point the only way the writers found to keep people interested in an otherwise dull, idiotic and insanely repetitive show is to kill off one of the main characters in the (season or midseason) premiere, after making their upcoming death the cliffhanger of the previous episode. Sometimes I feel like I'm watching a zombie-themed reality show where each season someone is eliminated and we basically keep watching just to see who it will be. 

I've never read the comics so I have no idea whether this is explained there or not, but I still don't understand why can't they just leave Negan there, pack up and move somewhere else. Dear Gimble, I suggest this as an option because 1. I'd love to see what's going on in other places and 2. at this point, even a season of the whole gang getting on a bus and going on a road trip with Daryl and Carol singing Holiday Road would sound more appealing than this lazy excuse for a show.

[Nashville]

9 hours ago, jcin617 said:

Rick saw a helicopter fly by overhead when he has on his way to visit trash dump people three episodes ago.

At this point, I’m guessing the helicopter will be the deaus ex machina which heralds the end of the series.  Whoever’s left will be airlifted the hell off to TWD’s version of a paternal government’s version of Zona where there’s plenty of food and water, the cure to zombieism has been found to be a daily dose of Hall’s Mentho-Lyptus cough drops, and life will be great forevermore.

And one evacuee will be crying uncontrollably, one will be laughing uncontrollably, and one will be staring across the zombiefied landscape speeding past under the chopper in stony, enigmatic silence.  

And fade to dreck.

 

9 hours ago, luna1122 said:

I also know several women who say they love Negan when, I THINK what they mean is they love JDM. I hope. I don't even like JDM, as I've never really seen much of anything else he's ever done

JDM has a strong following from the early Grey’s Anatomy years; he played Denny Duquette as cute, boyish, charming and dying all at once.  Not bad acting, actually.

 

On 12/11/2017 at 4:50 PM, millennium said:

I'm starting to think that before you can become a Savior, they subject you to 1000 hours of Quentin Tarantino/Joss Whedon dialogue so that you can bring snarky repartee in both fists.   The Saviors are clearly the most menacing talk show hosts in the universe.   When Simon was monologuing in the road, I ached for the camera to pull back just a teensy bit to show another Savior holding up cue cards.

For the life of me I don’t understand why the Hilltoppers didn’t immediately start blowing away Saviors as soon as their headlights showed.

Or while the panel van was cruising past EVERY SINGLE GUN THE HILLTOPPERS HAD.

Or when the Saviors soldier group was running up from the back of the traffic line - bunched up and unprotected, complete with lights for easy night-sighting.

Or why Maggie pump a few rounds through Simon the moment his smarmy ass slouched out of the panel truck; his incredibly huge forehead made for a GREAT target in her car’s headlights.

But NOOOoooOOooo... instead, every Hilltopper in the convoy keeps their ass planted in their car seat like they’re waiting in line at the McDonald’s drive-thru - and then meekly pass their weapons out the windows on command.

These people deserve what they get.  Me?  My weapon and I would’ve been out the car door and into the woods the moment the car stopped and the Saviors’ headlights popped up.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Nashville
Typo

[mrspidey]

What i find hilarious was that Gavin and his men were unable to find Ezekiel while the latter was hauling oil barrels around a few hundred meters down the road. 

[Nashville]

46 minutes ago, CharethCutestory said:

I know Kirkman has said he doesn't plan on going into what started the virus, I don't know why, but the show needs fresh blood plot wise. 

Who gives a shit what Kirkman wants?  I mean, it’s not like the GN is canon or anything any more....

 

6 minutes ago, stormy weather said:

I wish I could've been in the writers' room when someone said "listen all y'all, I have a genius idea. Why don't we kill Carl?" because I honestly can't believe no one said "but why though" since, I agree, plot-wise it makes absolutely no sense.

Oh, I’m sure they played it off as #NoOneIsSafe - and yeah, fuckers, we already got that, thank you very much.  Many of us have been following CDB since before your asses showed up.

[Gobi]

6 minutes ago, Nashville said:

At this point, I’m guessing the helicopter will be the deaus ex machina which heralds the end of the series.  Whoever’s left will be airlifted the hell off to TWD’s version of a paternal government’s version of Zona where there’s plenty of food and water, the cure to zombieism has been found to be a daily dose of Hall’s Mentho-Lyptus cough drops, and life will be great forevermore.

And one evacuee will be crying uncontrollably, one will be laughing uncontrollably, and one will be staring across the zombiefied landscape speeding past under the chopper in stony, enigmatic silence.  

And fade to dreck.

 

JDM has a strong following from the early Grey’s Anatomy years; he played Denny Duquette as cute, boyish, charming and dying all at once.  Not bad acting, actually.

 

For the life of me I don’t understand why the Hilltoppers didn’t immediately start blowing away Saviors as soon as their headlights showed.

Or while the panel van was cruising past EVERY SINGLE GUN THE HILLTOPPERS HAD.

Or when the Saviors soldier group was running up from the back of the traffic line - bunched up and unprotected, complete with lights for easy night-sighting.

Or why Maggie pump a few rounds through Simon the moment his smarmy ass slouched out of the panel truck; his incredibly huge forehead made for a GREAT target in her car’s headlights.

But NOOOoooOOooo... instead, every Hilltopper in the convoy keeps their ass planted in their car seat like they’re waiting in line at the McDonald’s drive-thru - and then meekly pass their weapons out the windows on command.

These people deserve what they get.  Me?  My weapon would’ve been out the car door and into the woods the moment the car stopped and the Saviors’ headlights popped up.

That whole sequence was ridiculous. Once again, in an all out war you would  think they would  have planned for such an encounter.

[Kiki777]

57 minutes ago, CharethCutestory said:

What, we can have garbage pail kids who forget how to speak after a year or two but evolving zombies is off the table? 

TWIST: the GPK are evolved zombies - lol that would explain a lot.

13 minutes ago, Nashville said:

JDM has a strong following from the early Grey’s Anatomy years; he played Denny Duquette as cute, boyish, charming and dying all at once.  Not bad acting, actually.

Before Negan, JDM was likeable in everything I'd seen him in, even a cheesy Lifetime movie where he was Joe DiMaggio.  Negan is just that poorly written and one-dimensional.

[paigow]

22 hours ago, ShadowSixx said:

 I have more Carl & Michonne moments more than Carl & Rick.

There are probably more Carl & Negan moments than Carl & Rick moments.....

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Nashville said:

At this point, I’m guessing the helicopter will be the deaus ex machina which heralds the end of the series.

Who could be the chopper crew?

• Major Dutch Schultz & his "rescue team, not assassins"
• FBI agents Johnson & Johnson looking for Hans Gruber
• Lt. Col. Bill Kilgore "smelling napalm in the morning"

Edited December 12, 2017 by paigow

[FierceCritter]

11 minutes ago, paigow said:

There are probably more Carl & Negan moments than Carl & Rick moments.....

 

11 minutes ago, paigow said:

There are probably more Carl & Negan moments than Carl & Rick moments.....

Ouch. But sadly true.

[AngelaHunter]

So eight pages, and without actually computing it all, I'd say 7 1/2 of those are negative views.

Sorry. I couldn't help myself.

 

[festivus]

6 hours ago, Persnickety1 said:

I'm hoping Daryl and Tara take off in search of supplies....and never return.  

heh heh. Like Heath.

[SimoneS]

5 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Why can't the future of the world be Judith?  Yes, she is still very young, but there is nothing to say that she can't eventually be some sort of leader.

I don't get that either. I think that for some people it is because Judith is female that people dismiss her existence.

[KirkB]

I think the difference is, Carl was just about ready to be a leader now. Judith won't be in any state to do that for a good sixteen or seventeen years. At least.

Edited December 13, 2017 by KirkB

[paigow]

1 minute ago, SimoneS said:

I don't get that either. I think that for some people it is because Judith is female that people dismiss her existence.

Maybe there will be nothing left to save by next year - let alone 10 - so she is irrelevant to the salvation of humanity. 

[Threnners]

I read something on Reddit that struck me:     Since Kirkman is suing AMC, is it possible that AMC had Gimple kill off Carl because he's Robert's favorite character.  That sounds pretty much like AMC's style.    Or perhaps the goal is to make the show appear "devalued" in the impending lawsuit.     Whatever it it, it still sucks, and Scott Gimple has killed my love of this show.   I'll see Carl out, but that's it for me.    It's been a great run, but I don't want to watch characters I love be flushed down the toilet bowl by shitty writing.  Yes, you Carol.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, paigow said:

Maybe there will be nothing left to save by next year - let alone 10 - so she is irrelevant to the salvation of humanity. 

Not necessarily. Just a SWAG, but maybe the twist will be that Judith gets bit, survives, never turns, and they use her as the guinea pig for a cure. Which IMO would be right up Gimple's alley to have Shane and Lori's bio child, raised by Rick, be the one that saves humanity. I TOTALLY can see him doing that.

[Mu Shu]

4 hours ago, valandsend said:

I thought he'd shot Diane. I had to back it up and rewatch to catch a brief glimpse of Neil in the back seat.

Also, it was dark enough that when the Savior was speaking from the stage at the Kingdom, I first thought the closeup of the woman in the headscarf -- shown just before the cut to commercial -- was actually Ezekiel in disguise.

I thought Diane was a dude.  But I also can’t tell her from barcode lady.  I do like Diane, and the fact that she was saved instead of going into the ambush with the rest of the tron people probably means we lose a regular female character.  Probably Rosita. 

Lol, the woman in the scarf is a farmer at the Kingdom.  But it’s finny that I’m not the only one mistaking female characters for male one. Hell, I wondered when Justin Bieber joined the cast.  Then that awful southern accent came out.  Maggie. 

[peach]

2 minutes ago, Threnners said:

I read something on Reddit that struck me:     Since Kirkman is suing AMC, is it possible that AMC had Gimple kill off Carl because he's Robert's favorite character.  That sounds pretty much like AMC's style.    Or perhaps the goal is to make the show appear "devalued" in the impending lawsuit.     Whatever it it, it still sucks, and Scott Gimple has killed my love of this show.   I'll see Carl out, but that's it for me.    It's been a great run, but I don't want to watch characters I love be flushed down the toilet bowl by shitty writing.  Yes, you Carol.

Omg, I was just talking to a friend and it suddenly occurred to us that maybe Gimple thinks he'll be forced out if TWD when they move him over to Fear...so this was an act of spite to ruin the future of the show.  Didn't even think of a punishing Kirkman angle.  Seems plausible.  It definitely seems like they WANT to tank it.

[heisenberg]

23 minutes ago, KirkB said:

I think the difference is, Carl was just about ready to be a leader now. Judith won't be in any state to do that for a good sixteen or seventeen years. At least.

At the pace they are going it would mean around serie 78 or 79...

[KirkB]

At which point Negan should be...what, halfway through one of his monologues?

[paigow]

Did Kirkman sue before or after his own "Comic Book Man" series was approved??

Why not just call it the Hardwick-Kirkman Network???

13 minutes ago, KirkB said:

At which point Negan should be...what, halfway through one of his monologues?

If any chiropractors survived the ZA, Negan will be getting his spine adjusted while droning on and on......

[Prairie]

3 hours ago, ghoulina said:

So well put. And I'm also taken back to the scene in Better Angels, when Rick says "no more kid stuff". He explains how people are gonna die, they just are - him (Rick), mom......it was like a rite of passage speech. Carl wasn't supposed to die. He was supposed to see all those people die and be the one to lead the new generation. I can't even comprehend the turn this show has taken. 

I feel like Carl surviving is essential to this story. I balled when I realized he was going to die. Like you've mentioned, I loved Carl's adorable little boy face and I think a lot of our hearts broke for what this kid has had to live through. I was also so sad in thinking that this show will never tell the story that I thought it would in the beginning. I was so interested in how this show would end up playing out, and I'm actually really pissed about the lost potential.

[AngelaHunter]

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

I think that for some people it is because Judith is female that people dismiss her existence.

I think for some people, like me, it's not because Judith is female, but because Judith is a baby - an unknown quantity - who might grow up to be another Michonne, or another Tara.  Carl's character and personality was pretty much set.

 

5 minutes ago, Apricotte said:

I loved Carl's adorable little boy face and I think a lot of our hearts broke for what this kid has had to live through.

What I used to find sad is that kids of Carl's age will grow up with little or no memory of a different kind of world, the one their parents knew. But of course, none of that was ever mentioned on this show. No reminiscing, no peronal conversations, no discussing those who had died. Well, no nostalgia other than "I miss my vibrator." I'm not criticizing that line. It was funny, but it was the only nostalgia I heard from anyone.

 

50 minutes ago, Mu Shu said:

I thought Diane was a dude.

Oh, so that's who Diane is. Thank you. I think she could take Negan in a one-on-one.

[GenerationX]

4 hours ago, CharethCutestory said:

I know a lot of people loved Season 5 but after the awesome terminus premier and first few episodes, I've felt a decline in quality ever since. Its become a convoluted mess of characters nobody cares about, bottle episodes about said characters nobody cares about, painful, poorly written monologues, Negan in all his "Negan-ness," and disjointed plot lines that violate even the most basic foundations of common sense.

Agreed.  When I decide to re-watch the show from Season 1 Episode 1, I'll be stopping at Season 5, Episode 9 "What Happened and What's Going On".  Beth had just died, Tyreese dies, and good storytelling is about to die.

[jls1792]

7 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Why can't the future of the world be Judith?  Yes, she is still very young, but there is nothing to say that she can't eventually be some sort of leader.

The dude that Carl saved and brought into the fold has to be a good guy.  It would really suck if Carl got himself bitten trying to save someone who ended up being a problem for Rick's group.

Since Carl is dying, I think it's safe to assume Judith probably won't die for this reason.  I think they should have some "hope" for survival and the future, and with Carl gone, that will now fall to Judith and Maggie's baby.  Judith didn't survive in the comics, so Carl is the hope there, and while I think Carl was/should have been the hope for the future on the show too, they could still do it with Judith.  

As for Judith being a leader, the thing is, she's still a baby right now.  I don't know how much time has passed but she's probably no more than 2 with the timeline of the show.  So it's still going to be a while before she can really step up.  Unless they do a time jump, but that would need to be a pretty big time jump.

 

6 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

I did think Carl was bit in the previous episode, but then he was acting normal, so I thought I was wrong. I do think it is OK for people to still get bit and die-otherwise why have the walkers at all. But there is no reason for the storyline to kill Carl. I thought the series would end with Rick dying and Carl taking over as the new leader. Now, I am expecting all of the people we knew from the beginning to die and we will be left with all new people. 

I think it was somewhere on here where someone said Carl dying shows that the walkers are still a threat.  And that's true.  With everything going on with the war and fighting, the fans and characters probably expect any deaths to occur at the hands of Negan and the war.  But there are still walkers out there that are still dangerous.  So in a way, Carl's death has that purpose of showing the walkers are still out there and playing a part in this show.  I just wish they could have done it a bit better.  Did Carl and Siddiq really need to stop and take out those walkers?  They were eating the deer, so Carl and Siddiq could have probably just kept walking.  Now, had the walkers noticed and come after them or they had stumbled upon a walker herd that started coming for them I think that might have been a better way to have Carl get bit.  I didn't see all this episode so someone correct me if I'm wrong if I got the details wrong.

Having characters get bit doesn't bother me, as long as it's done well.  And although we as fans can take this death as a "oh yeah, those damn walkers are still out there" it wouldn't surprise me if they don't address it at all on the show and just use it to focus on Rick, Negan and Michonne's story lines like Gimple and Chandler have said will happen as a result of Carl's death.

 

4 hours ago, CharethCutestory said:

This show has lost its way so profoundly that such an ending would not surprise me in the least and is actually not even the worst thing I fear Gimple could come up with to stick two big middle fingers in the eyes of the fans. Carl is (was) the future. That speech Lori gave him as she was about to die that he was going to "beat this world" symbolized so much and Gimple took a giant crap on, lit it on fire and fed it to the wolves. 

 

3 hours ago, ghoulina said:

So well put. And I'm also taken back to the scene in Better Angels, when Rick says "no more kid stuff". He explains how people are gonna die, they just are - him (Rick), mom......it was like a rite of passage speech. Carl wasn't supposed to die. He was supposed to see all those people die and be the one to lead the new generation. I can't even comprehend the turn this show has taken. 

Lori's speech to Carl and Rick's speech to Carl as well as what Michonne told him in the premiere were all examples of paving the way for Carl to be a leader and play an important part in the future.  Lori said Carl would beat this world.  Rick gave him the speech about growing up and needing to realize people are going to die.  Michonne said it was his show now.  Yeah, it was his show for one episode.  What a waste.

 

Quote

All build up for 7.5 seasons null and void. I can understand never having Carl take over leadership as part of this show. Chandler is still so young, looks like a kid, and while he's improved with every episode doesn't have the chops yet to pilot an hour long drama as its hero. Recasting and a time jump maybe it could've worked. But why kill him off for good in TWD (At least AMC) universe and eliminate all future possibilities where he's concerned? With AMC's frequently voiced hopes for the longevity of this series I suspected something like a Star Trek situation. Retooling, coming back. TWD: The Next Generation type deal with Carl at the helm. I guess it could be Judith but who is invested in that? I always saw the first, original show ending with Carl on the precipice of becoming a leader in the next phase of the new world and the closure of Rick Grimes' story.

Yeah, I could understand not completely following the comics and maybe not making Carl the full on leader, but he could have still played a big role.  Like you said, they could have done a time jump and recast.  Or like you also said, they could have temporarily sent Carl elsewhere which could explain why we don't see him much.  

[Miles]

Where does Negan keep pulling all this guys from? Oh I know the answer! Those must be really smelly guys.

Because there is no way in hell this many guys were left in sanctuary.

 

On 11.12.2017 at 4:55 AM, raven said:

It was Gimple's idea because he didn't know what else to do,  The HR interview with Chandler is interesting.

I mean seriously. It was all to justify not killing Negan? I'm not the biggest Carl fan, but if they had to deviate from the comics, why not kill Negan instead of him? That's the obvious choice here. Nobody wants to keep that annoying twat around, nobody!

Edited December 13, 2017 by Miles

[jackjill89]

I think I hate Simon's speechifying more than Negan's. One monologuing villain is enough. The whole lot of them will never STFU. Does Negan put them through some special "I am Negan" training camp where they learn to talk their victims to death with ridiculous, self-important, meant to be intimidating word vomit? Every. Single. One. Of. Them. Save Dwight -- I don't think Dwight got enough training to be a completely annoying "I am Negan" monologist. He's just annoying in other ways. 

I wanted to throw things at my TV this episode just to shut them all up. 

[FierceCritter]

I don't know. Like I said, I don't frequent these forums much at all, just when I need emotional support after a particularly life-shattering episode, lol. Last time was probably when Glen went under the dumpster.

But nearly EVERYONE who has posted here has done so with MUCH outrage over Carl dying. Not everyone, but most. I can't help but think this MUST be another major fake-out somehow, someway. They can't possibly be THAT out of touch with their viewers, can they?

I know what Riggs has said, what his dad has said, etc. But if this IS a major fake-out, then they'd HAVE to say things like that. Just like all the evasions and misdirections we got from Kit Harrington re: ?death? of Jon Snow on GOT.

I'm still gonna believe Carl really is a dead man walking. But part of me is sensing subterfuge.

[jls1792]

5 minutes ago, FierceCritter said:

I don't know. Like I said, I don't frequent these forums much at all, just when I need emotional support after a particularly life-shattering episode, lol. Last time was probably when Glen went under the dumpster.

But nearly EVERYONE who has posted here has done so with MUCH outrage over Carl dying. Not everyone, but most. I can't help but think this MUST be another major fake-out somehow, someway. They can't possibly be THAT out of touch with their viewers, can they?

I know what Riggs has said, what his dad has said, etc. But if this IS a major fake-out, then they'd HAVE to say things like that. Just like all the evasions and misdirections we got from Kit Harrington re: ?death? of Jon Snow on GOT.

I'm still gonna believe Carl really is a dead man walking. But part of me is sensing subterfuge.

I was also thinking there could be a SLIGHT possibly that all the actors and Gimple are saying what they are to throw people off.  Chandler's dad's post though makes it seem like that's not the case.  I feel like he would just stay quiet.  He doesn't have to say anything since he's not on the show.  But Chandler and Andrew and Gimple and the other actors would get asked about it in interviews.  Unless Chandler's dad really wanted to be involved in the cover up...

If Carl isn't dying, I'm not sure how they could work around what they just showed us.  I can't see them pulling an immune card unless Carl had been given something to take or injected with something when the outbreak began.  But I don't think they would do that.  I think the only way Carl could still live is if Rick had a nightmare and this was it.  As of now, it seems like the old man Rick flash forward from the premiere was not so much a flash forward but rather a what if/dream sequence of how Rick pictured life in the future since we see Carl there.  But I suppose they could make it so Carl being bit was just a bad dream/hallucination of Rick's.  They would also have to say that Carl didn't get bit when he was in the woods with Siddiq, so it would get complicated since we can see the walker come up on Carl.

I saw someone on Facebook jokingly say that maybe the pudding Carl ate in 4x09 was actually the cure/immunity.  :D :D 

[Miles]

2 minutes ago, jls1792 said:

If Carl isn't dying, I'm not sure how they could work around what they just showed us.  I can't see them pulling an immune card unless Carl had been given something to take or injected with something when the outbreak began.  But I don't think they would do that.

They could pull a "Fear the Walking Dead" and say that he was bitten by a human.

[FierceCritter]

5 minutes ago, jls1792 said:

I saw someone on Facebook jokingly say that maybe the pudding Carl ate in 4x09 was actually the cure/immunity.  :D :D 

Much lulz! :D

[Kiki777]

7 minutes ago, jls1792 said:

Do I was also thinking there could be a SLIGHT possibly that all the actors and Gimple are saying what they are to throw people off.  Chandler's dad's post though makes it seem like that's not the case.  I feel like he would just stay quiet.  He doesn't have to say anything since he's not on the show.  But Chandler and Andrew and Gimple and the other actors would get asked about it in interviews.  Unless Chandler's dad really wanted to be involved in the cover up...

Maybe they are saving Carl somehow but recasting him... Not so much speculating as it is wishful thinking on my part.  

Magic Immunity Pudding!  Love it :-)

[jls1792]

7 minutes ago, Miles said:

They could pull a "Fear the Walking Dead" and say that he was bitten by a human.

Yeah, I've seen some people suggest that it could be a whisperer.  I mean, it looked like a walker, so if it was human they'd have to have some high quality walker disguising skills and materials