S04.E11: A Dark Knight: Queen Takes Knight

[ElectricBoogaloo]

MID-SEASON FINALE!

Quote

Things get complicated for Gordon, Sophia, and Penguin when Carmine Falcone comes to town. Alfred tries to get through to Bruce once and for all; Nygma struggles to gain control over the Riddler persona; and Tabitha attempts to make Grundy remember his past. Meanwhile, a familiar smile resurfaces in Gotham.

Promo:

[SimoneS]

Oh no, Bruce. I was afraid that he would file for emancipation to get away from Alfred. I can only hope that Bruce remembers who he is one day soon.

Oh Jim, what a tangled web... Hang in there until you find a way out.

Butch is back! Jerome is back!

[Chaos Theory]

Well Sophia turned out to be a hard core psychopath didn't she?  I have never liked her more.   The whole "This is my revenge" conversation with Jim was incredibly well done.  I did kinda figure out pretty quickly that she was the one who put the hit out on her father but I liked the scene in the church with Zsaasz and then later with the Pig.  Zsaaz switching sides wasn't especially surprising.  

The Pig reveal was surprising.  

I think my other favorite scene was Tabby, Barbara and Selina tied to chairs with bullets flying and they are a cool as cucumbers.  Tabby drops in her chair and uses her face to shoot the guys in the building while the other two give her direction.   "Yay teamwork!"  

[Danielg342]

Wow.

I was going to write about how messy and incoherent this episode was, jumping all over the place.

...but, this episode is entirely worth it to see Sofia Falcone put Jim Gordon in his place in the most awesomest way.

I think I'm in love. She's my new favourite...well, still tied with Harvey.

There's not much more I want to say other than I wonder where things will go from here. There's just so much to process right now.

Which I guess is good since FOX has no idea when this will come back. Hopefully before next Christmas.

[HoodlumSheep]

Dang. I don't know where to begin. This season has been so good (and the second half looks like it's gonna be fantastic as well). 

I'm probably gonna forget stuff, but i'm still processing that whammy of an episode:

• Zsasz. Dang. I had a feeling he'd eventually jump back to the falcones. That scene at falcone's funeral was fantastic. Him turning on ozzy was great too.
• RIP Falcone :'( another favorite dead. My favorites keep dwindling and dwindling. I wish he could have died in peace. 
• Sofia...*applaudes* girl's a puppet master. 
• All the twistyness of this episode!
• Pyg!!! I'm sure he probably isn't dead, but i wasn't expecting him to show up this episode! Good twist!
• Jim :( he caves so easily. You talked about abiding the law and finally being on the right path again and then sofia threatens you and you cave. Come on. You were doing pretty well for a while, there.
• Don't leave harvey ;_;
• The Alfred/Bruce scenes were heartbreaking. My gosh, when alfred packs his bags...
• Also sad: tabs and butch/grundy. Pretty brutal way to make him try to remember. And then she gives up :( and then he seemingly remembers :'(
• Ozzy locked up again! And then...
• Jerome! Great re-introductory scene

This season has definitely been on par with season 2 for me. I've loved every single episode. It's been a wild ride.

Edited December 8, 2017 by HoodlumSheep

[ChristiKRN]

That was such a good episode.  Gotham has not done very well with female characters (ie 1st/2nd season Barbara, Lee) but Sophia is brilliant.  Wow- I suspected that she was behind her father's murder but did not guess that she was the one who brought Pyg to town.  What a fantastic character!  

Jim just needs to avoid women all together.  They are his downfall.

Wanted to slap Bruce upside the head for his treatment of Alfred. Alfred just broke my heart tonight.  What a great job by both actors.

The other thing that might break my heart is if Harvey is gone for good.  With the exception of a couple of episodes, Harvey appearances have been very limited this season; I'm guessing it is b/c of what happened with the actor's child earlier this year.  Does anyone know if Donal Logue is leaving the show? It seems Harvey has been written into a corner. 

[Philbert]

54 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

 

Which I guess is good since FOX has no idea when this will come back. Hopefully before next Christmas.

 The previews said next Spring so I'll hold them to that.

[thuganomics85]

It's official: Jim really has a thing for the crazy, wherever he knows it or not!

I figured Carmine wasn't going to last for long after he revealed he was dying already.  I will certainly miss John Doman here, because he is just one of those actors who is great in anything he's in and shines no matter how much screen time he has, but I'm certainly intrigued over Sofia stepping into the Falcone shoes and enterprise.  I suspected she was the one who was behind his death automatically, but I still loved her big reveal.  And she's not only got Oswald out of the way and  still has the Tabitha/Barbara/Selina trio on her side, she even flipped Zsasz!  Everything is coming up Sofia!  Really enjoying Crystal Reed in this role (and not just because she's insanely gorgeous.)

A little bummed out that Pyg is gone for good now (granted Butch/Grundy has shown that even a bullet the head isn't a sure thing on this show), but it was wild ride while it lasted.  Michael Cerveris was fantastic.

Bullock has turned in his gun and badge!  He can't be gone for good, can he?

Love makes you do crazy things, sometimes.  Like smacking your undead soul mate in the head with a pipe over and over again, in an attempt to get his memories back!

Bruce continues to go down a dark path and has now separated himself from Alfred.  This is not good.

Oswald's now in Arkham, but he might have a buddy in the form of Jerome!  The Penguin and The Joker together!

Hopefully, the wait won't feel too long, since this has actually been a pretty fun season.  Hopefully Ra's will come back in some form, since I'm missing by Alexander Siddig fix.  But what I really want for Christmas is to make Anthony Carrigan a regular, because Zsasz has easily become one of my new favorite psychopathic henchmen!

[Philbert]

All, I can say here is "Wow." Gotham finally pulled the trigger and gave a lot of fans what they had been wanting- a tacit admission by the writers that Jim Gordon is NOT the hero of this story, even if he might not actually be an intentional villain. Sophia was absolutely right in her speech. Everything that Jim has done since season one, since the pilot in fact, has been leading up to this point. Every shady deal he made, every skirt of the law he pulled, usually while trumpeting his own self righteousness has come at last come home to roost. Yeah, he's at least partially rebuilt the GCPD into something resembling an actual, functioning police department but at what cost? There are a LOT of dead people lying between him and his high minded ambition. What was that old saying about the Road to Hell and Good intentions?

We can always ask Jim. He's clearly on it.

 

10/10

Edited December 8, 2017 by Philbert

[tennisgurl]

Hot damn Sophia! I think I have a new favorite villain. That lady is cold as hell, but she is also pretty kick ass, and I loved seeing how easily she played everyone around her. Never bet against the Queen. And her speech was freaking epic, and exactly what we`ve been waiting for. I like Jim, but he is seriously a messed up person. He wants to be a good guy, and he really had good intentions, but he has an awful temper, takes short cuts, and generally makes sketchy choices for good reasons. Its time he realized that and started making peace with his darkness. 

Jim really does have a type, doesn't he? Hot, but murderous. Speaking of messed up love, Tabitha deciding to literally beat Grundy into being Butch again was both sweet, AND totally messed up. If only she had stuck around, it seems like he might be remembering himself again. Damn it, I`m rooting for those crazy kids! 

Dont know which break up was more depressing, Harvey and Jim, or Alfred and Bruce? I know Alfred and Bruce will patch things up, but what about Harvey and Jim?!?! 

Everyone with Bruce and Alfred was just heartbreaking. Like, oh my God when Alfred was calling after Bruce when he headbutted him? And when Bruce threatened to call the cops on him? My heart cant take this! 

I cant wait for the next half of the season! Jerome is back, and Penguin is along for the ride! Its been a great half a season, filled with Gothic craziness and some solid character work and good performances as well. Kudos Gotham on pulling me back in! 

[Danielg342]

9 minutes ago, Philbert said:

 The previews said next Spring so I'll hold them to that.

Still means anywhere from March to May...that's a lot of time.

I worry about momentum...and the ratings hit.

[Philbert]

1 hour ago, HoodlumSheep said:

Dang. I don't know where to begin. This season has been so good (and the second half looks like it's gonna be fantastic as well). 

I'm probably gonna forget stuff, but i'm still processing that whammy of an episode:

• RIP Falcone :'( another favorite dead. My favorites keep dwindling and dwindling. I wish he could have died in peace. 

 

One might argue that being shot is less painful than dying of cancer but I've never had either happen to me so I don't know....

[Danielg342]

7 minutes ago, Philbert said:

Gotham finally pulled the trigger and gave a lot of fans what they had been wanted- a tacit admission by the writers that Jim Gordon is NOT the hero of this story, even if he might not actually be an intentional villain. Sophia was absolutely right in her speech. Everything that Jim has done since season one, since the pilot in fact, has been leading up to this point. Every shady deal he made, every skirt of the law he pulled, usually while trumpeting his own self righteousness has come at last come home to roost. Yeah, he's at least partially rebuilt the GCPD into something resembling an actual, functioning police department but at what cost? There are a LOT of dead people lying between him and his high minded ambition. What was that old saying about the Road to Hell and Good intentions?

We can always ask Jim. He's clearly on it.

I wish I could frame this. Well put.

[Miss Dee]

7 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

Still means anywhere from March to May...that's a lot of time.

I worry about momentum...and the ratings hit.

Did you see that promo?! They are shooting their full load when they return. They don't think they're coming back for Season 5.

[Horsesrunwild]

10 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

Still means anywhere from March to May...that's a lot of time.

I worry about momentum...and the ratings hit.

Worried too about the ratings. Fox treats Gotham like crap.

[jay741982]

13 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

Still means anywhere from March to May...that's a lot of time.

I worry about momentum...and the ratings hit.

One of the reasons I was pissed a bit. REALLY FOX REALLLY? Why can't this come back next month 

[Lantern7]

Dreary way to end the fall episodes. Same thing happened with Arrow, but Gotham  was more fun to watch, even with Bruce being a complete and utter dick.

Note to Alfred: if you're going to beat sense into your ward, make sure you don't bruise him. I'm sure the damage will be undone in about five episodes, but it was still painful. Seriously, Bruce will be staggering around the red light district, and Ra's will walk by him. Hey, Alexander Siddig's name is still in the credits, so that's in play. I kept waiting for Ra's to pop up at any minute.

"The bill will come due, Jim." "I got that, Mordo. Thanks." I'm sure Jim will try to find a way to get out under Sofie's thumb and lock up every bad person in Gotham City. Right now, he's not starting off well. He's clearly not sane. I mean, he's not Edward/Jerome-insane, but he just loves to drive the car into the wall over and over, expecting to get through at some point.

When is Zsasz getting bumped up to the main characters? He's a delight, even if he looks too pale and rat-like. Has he teamed with Barbara before? Totally "ship" material.

Hi, Butch! Yes, you're white as fuck and probably not entirely human, but at least you got both hands again! Question: would Ed notice as he's screaming at the mirror?

I'm thinking the ratings aren't that hot for Fox to not give us a date. That's a shame, because the series delivers in not giving a fuck. Legends of Tomorrow is the only other comic-based show that's as insane, but it's not on the endangered list.

[Miss Dee]

Legends is the Ray Palmer of batshit-insane comic book shows; Gotham is the Mick Rory.

[Danielg342]

I still think we're getting at least an abbreviated fifth season to close things out- this may not be the ratings winner it once was but it's not a ratings disaster.

Either that, or FOX will definitively announce that Season 4B is "it". There's too much involved in this show to not allow it to have some closure.

[Kostgard]

Fox not giving an exact date for the return is actually par for course for them. I don't know why they operate that way, but they do. I remember it took a while to get an exact spring return date last season, and for the longest time, the premiere date for their mid-season programs (X-Files, 911, etc) was just "winter" and then "January" before they gave an actual date just a few weeks ago. I don't think it is an indication of anything one way or the other, really. 

I suspect it will be back March-ish. That singing show that will air on Thursdays will have six episodes, taking them to mid-February. Then the winter Olympics happen. I think Fox will probably sit out the Olympics, and then return to the regular schedule. A return some time in March with 11 episodes has the season ending in May, which is the usual end time for a TV season.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Kostgard

[Noneofyourbusiness]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Speaking of messed up love, Tabitha deciding to literally beat Grundy into being Butch again was both sweet, AND totally messed up.

Let's not forget that when they first got acquainted she cured him of Penguin's conditioning by whipping him for a very long time.

[Kostgard]

Cannot tell you how satisfying it was for Sofia to call Jim on all his shit. And that things actually were better under Oswald's program, but Jim couldn't stand it and dove right into a situation that got cops killed when they weren't dying under Oswald. And honestly, how else did Jim think this would end? OF COURSE it was going to end with him under Sofia's thumb. I guess Jim just didn't think (like, if he understood Oswald at all he would realize that he wouldn't kill a kid he cared for - and Sofia straight up told him that Oswald cared for him - and that Oswald had too much respect for Carmine to kill him. Or at the very least, he wouldn't kill him like that where he didn't have a dramatic confrontation where he could yell and scream and then gloat and rub Carmine's nose in it). Jim continues to suck, and it's finally biting him in the ass. Good. 

Loved Oswald on the loudspeaker at GCPD, but he completely missed a golden opportunity to come back with, "What a refreshing change!" when Jim said, "I'm upholding the law!"

Early in the season I wondered if Zsasz would dump Oswald and go back to the Falcones, but I forgot about it as the season progressed. Turns out I was right, but it does seem to be because Zsasz believes Oswald killed Carmine. I wonder what will happen with Zsasz when Oswald claws his way back to the top (he at least seemed to feel a little bad about it, so maybe he could flip again). I'm just bummed because I loved the Odd Couple thing they had going on.

Ed is in love with Lee? Just...why? Gross. I mean...no. Is anyone asking for that? I'm not against either of them with a love interest, just not with each other (and not Jim).

I wonder how long the Sirens will stick by Sofia. I guess they'll kiss up because she's in charge, but none of them seem to actually like her.

I'm kinda pissed Pyg got shot. I'm hoping it's one of those Gotham deaths that don't stick. I suspected Sofia and Pyg were working together (he was too focused Oswald in a way that didn't quite make sense).

Hi Harvey. Bye Harvey. I hope  you come back, but can't blame you for dusting Jim's ass.

When Bruce threatened to call the police on Alfred, I sooo wanted Alfred to punch him right in the face and then saying, "Go ahead and call. Totally worth it."

Great reintroduction to Jerome. 

[Kathemy]

Ivy and Bruce is real. Long live #pepperwayne. Kill me now.

[Lantern7]

1 hour ago, Kathemy said:

Ivy and Bruce is real. Long live #pepperwayne. Kill me now.

Right. Bruce will fall so far, he will be dating a Pokemon. Hey, she's changed form twice, and you could say those "special chemicals" were a "Leaf Stone" or something.

3 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

 But what I really want for Christmas is to make Anthony Carrigan a regular, because Zsasz has easily become one of my new favorite psychopathic henchmen!

Seriously, did you ever think we'd like a villain whose canon is "cuts a notch on himself after every kill"? While I'm thinking about it . . . did Zsasz come in S1 or S2. If it's the latter, I'd say he owes royalties to Wentworth Miller.

1 hour ago, Kostgard said:

Loved Oswald on the loudspeaker at GCPD, but he completely missed a golden opportunity to come back with, "What a refreshing change!" when Jim said, "I'm upholding the law!"

Gotta love the GCPD. They finally have the balls to take the side of law . . . but I imagine this excahnge as Oswald Cobblepot slowly walks to the mic: "Shouldn't we, I dunno, throw him out?" "Now, now. He might have something important to tell us."

[loki567]

Wow. This season's been dynamite. Impressive for a show fairly late into its run to have a big jump in quality. No storylines that dragged the season down so far. I mean Lee as a crimelord is fundamentally ridiculous but at least in a Gotham-sense where I can sort of roll with it. And it gives Lee something to do other than just existing to be a headache for Gordon. 

Big props to Crystal Reed who's been a strong addition. Her verbally tearing Jim apart was a great scene. 

I am a bit worried about Donal Logue and his role going forward. The situation with his daughter must have taken a lot out of him. Ratings being what they are and thechance that this is the last season, I'm wonder if Harvey will make it back in time and Jim/Gordon's relationship can get some closure. 

Only complaint is that new Poison Ivy tease. Looks like they're going to finally go forward with that Bruce/Ivy, teen flirting with a teen-in-an-adult's body story. The idea still reminds creepy. And now I feel bad for Maggie Geha. She never had a real shot to settle into the character. Fan reaction stopped the Poison Ivy seductress plot dead and the writers seem to have no clue what to do with her after that. And they recast her with an OLDER actress which... I don't get it. 

[Danielg342]

8 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Bullock has turned in his gun and badge!  He can't be gone for good, can he?

He was in one sequence in the promo. He had his gun drawn and I believe Jim did too, with both looking like they're ready to make an arrest.

So it looks like they may patch things up after all.

4 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

did Zsasz come in S1 or S2

Victor Zsasz first appeared in S01E07, "Penguin's Umbrella". I don't believe he's done much before this season, and I think he had only one appearance in S2.

[Tony]

Bruce's storyline is so pointless now. Who thought that turning him into an annoying bratty teen is a good idea?

[paigow]

What is closure / endgame for a prequel series?  Gordon gets promoted. Batman begins a decades long struggle of treading water because his "no kill" policy lets Penguin, Joker et al run the "Arkham, escape, rinse, repeat" cycle... 

[darkestboy]

Great mid season finale.

Sofia really played everyone and she was superb in this episode. Killing her own father, getting Oswald sent to Arkham and bringing Pyg into the game before taking him out. Along with her revenge speech to Gordon, she really has emerged as quite the villain this season.

Oswald and Jerome, that's going to be an interesting team to watch in the second half of the season.

Bruce firing Alfred along with that scrap shocked me. Someone needs to snap Bruce out of it now.

Tabitha should've stuck around as she actually got Butch's memories back. No more Grundy then?

Really could do without Nygma falling for Leslie though, 8/10

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, Tony said:

Bruce's storyline is so pointless now. Who thought that turning him into an annoying bratty teen is a good idea?

Bruce's story is the one story that the show has consistently gotten right. He isn't "an annoying bratty teen." He is a wealthy emotionally traumatized 16 year old boy who is struggling to figure out his identity as he deals with betraying his ideals.  This is realistic given all that Bruce has gone through and necessary if he is to become Batman one day.

Edited December 8, 2017 by SimoneS

[Chaos Theory]

26 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Bruce's story is the one story that the show has consistently gotten right. He isn't "an annoying bratty teen." He is a wealthy emotionally traumatized 16 year old boy who is struggling to figure out his identity as he deals with betraying his ideals.  This is realistic given all that Bruce has gone through and necessary if he is to become Batman one day.

Bruce has all the money in the world but no real friends and so much anger and no place to put it.  I thought his storyline this season was very well done although maybe slightly abrupt but the show had bigger fish to fry and it had to put Penguin in position to run into Jerome.  If anyone can knock Bruce back into Dark Knight Mode it’s Jerome.

[Gulftastic]

I watch from the UK by means other than a TV network. The talk in this thread of cancellation worry me. Is it in trouble?

And I miss Baby Cat/Bat scenes. Come on Selina. Brucie needs you!

[Chaos Theory]

4 minutes ago, Gulftastic said:

I watch from the UK by means other than a TV network. The talk in this thread of cancellation worry me. Is it in trouble?

And I miss Baby Cat/Bat scenes. Come on Selina. Brucie needs you!

I think people are panicking for no reason.  The ratings aren’t great but for Fox they are good.  In the 2016-2017 season it remains on of the top scripted shows on FOX.  Although down in ratings it’s more then likely going to get renewed.  

[Gulftastic]

Thanks CT. I'm reassured.

[Kostgard]

I actually think Gotham might be in some danger of getting canceled after this season (I didn't really see the danger last season, so I thought the panic last season was a bit much). Gotham isn't completely dead in the water the way a show like The Exorcist is (those ratings are terrible - even for a Friday night show), but it's not in the safe zone, either.

It's been posting 0.9 in the 18-49 demo nearly all season, and these last two episodes dropped a smidge to 0.8. Those aren't horrible numbers for Fox, but they aren't great, either. Ratings are dropping year-to-year, but so is just about every other show out there, and it's not bleeding numbers like, say, Lethal Weapon is (Gotham is down about 23% versus last year, LW is down about 43%) and most shows shed viewers the longer it goes on. The fact that most of the new shows on Fox aren't doing significantly better (The Gifted also posted a 0.8 this week, Ghosted has dipped that low too, and The Orville - which is already renewed - has mostly posted ratings only 0.1 or 0.2 higher than Gotham's) is in Gotham's favor, since with new shows, you know it is only downhill from here (since, again, shows lose viewers as they go on) and it's not a great look on a new show to be posting the same ratings as a four year old show that isn't your ratings darling. But on the other hand, Fox has a history of just taking its lowest 5-6 shows in the ratings and giving them the boot, and right now Gotham is in that zone. We'll have a better idea in the spring when we see how more things shake out and how other show perform once they lose their football boost they are currently enjoying. 

 

7 hours ago, loki567 said:

Wow. This season's been dynamite. Impressive for a show fairly late into its run to have a big jump in quality. No storylines that dragged the season down so far. I mean Lee as a crimelord is fundamentally ridiculous but at least in a Gotham-sense where I can sort of roll with it. And it gives Lee something to do other than just existing to be a headache for Gordon. 

Big props to Crystal Reed who's been a strong addition. Her verbally tearing Jim apart was a great scene. 

I am a bit worried about Donal Logue and his role going forward. The situation with his daughter must have taken a lot out of him. Ratings being what they are and thechance that this is the last season, I'm wonder if Harvey will make it back in time and Jim/Gordon's relationship can get some closure. 

Only complaint is that new Poison Ivy tease. Looks like they're going to finally go forward with that Bruce/Ivy, teen flirting with a teen-in-an-adult's body story. The idea still reminds creepy. And now I feel bad for Maggie Geha. She never had a real shot to settle into the character. Fan reaction stopped the Poison Ivy seductress plot dead and the writers seem to have no clue what to do with her after that. And they recast her with an OLDER actress which... I don't get it. 

I agree that the show has been on a creative upswing lately (which is why I think it's a bummer that the ratings don't match and people who may have walked away from the show aren't aware that it's gotten so much better). The writing still has it's holes, but it is much tighter than it has been and the season-long arcs have been far more focused. And agree about Crystal Reed - the Sofia storyline has largely worked well for me (despite the sloppiness last week) and CR has simply nailed the role. Despite her doing terrible things, I've enjoyed the hell out of Sofia. I am looking forward to her inevitable downfall in the second half of the season, because I'm sure it will still be entertaining.

While I wouldn't be surprised if DL is taking time off for his family, Harvey will be back (as mentioned above he was in the promo and other cast members have posted evidence to Instagram and whatnot that he's on set). Someone's gotta save Gotham and Jim from his own stupidity and selfishness and Bruce can only help with the "Gotham" part of that (seriously - the only leverage Sofia has over the GCPD is Jim. He took them from being under Oswald to being under Sofia all while telling them "Hey, you can be real cops now!" To remove her leverage all Jim has to do is say, "Guys, I screwed up. I'm resigning effective immediately" and then the GCPD wouldn't have to be in her pocket. But Jim's a real hero who would never do that, so they remain corrupt so Jim can save his own skin. Jim sucks).

 

ETA: I'm not sweating the Poison Ivy/Bruce scene yet. I strongly suspect that will be some sort of poison kiss to knock him out rather than her trying to actually hook up with Bruce.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Kostgard

[Danielg342]

I just realized that the "Dark Knight" in this context is Jim. It's a clever title because it's Batman's nickname and we saw Bruce standing over the rooftop like Batman did to end S3, but the writing and all the exposé they've done with Jim is to assert that he truly is the original Dark Knight.

[Chaos Theory]

1 hour ago, Kostgard said:

 

I agree that the show has been on a creative upswing lately (which is why I think it's a bummer that the ratings don't match and people who may have walked away from the show aren't aware that it's gotten so much better). 

One of the shows MAJOR flaws was a lack of a female cast even a approaching their own personality and storyline.  This season did ALOT to correct that.   My God did it correct that.  Even Lee Thomson was entertaining while trying take over the Narrows.  I am not even minding what will be a crash and burn relationship arc with Nygma because we know what happens to the chicks Nygma falls for...don’t we?

 

Sophia is a breath of fresh air as a psychopath villain that matches wits with both Penguin and Jim.

Barbara who has been on the show since the pilot but mostly forgotten has gotten actual screen time this season and I love it.  She is a hoot.

I was never a fan of Tabby and Butch but Tabby and Grundy make an interesting idea.

And Of course Serina as always is fun and works well with Barbara and Tabitha. 

So yeah this season has been a hit for me.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[paigow]

Funny how Nolan-verse Bruce waited until his mid 30's to fire Alfred, while Heller-verse Bruce did it before 21....

1 minute ago, Chaos Theory said:

 I am not even minding what will be a crash and burn relationship arc with Nygma because we know what happens to the chicks Nygma falls for...don’t we?

No jealous Penguin around...any girlfriend will have an extended shelf life....

[Chaos Theory]

5 minutes ago, paigow said:

 

No jealous Penguin around...any girlfriend will have an extended shelf life....

Nygma killed at least one of them himself 

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Danielg342 said:

I just realized that the "Dark Knight" in this context is Jim.

Valid interpretation...however, given how the audience and characters harp on his stupidity...Jim Gordon is more accurately the "Dim Knight".....

[WritinMan]

I'm a little surprised by how popular Sofia seems to be as:

1) I don't think she's attractive enough to be as seductive as her character is supposed to be.

2) She has nowhere near the experience (or is old enough) to be as manipulative as her character is supposed to be.

I don't think her character is at all believable--and that's in a show with some bat-shit crazy characters.

Also, I hope the Douche Wayne story line wraps up soon. It's not very interesting.

[The Kings Foot]

Well there is an interesting conundrum. Gotham is made by Warner Brothers /DC Comics. But Fox is about to be bought by Disney which owns Marvel. Its entirely possible that Gotham gets wrapped up so DC doesn't have one their franchises operating under "the enemy". 

[Kostgard]

41 minutes ago, The Kings Foot said:

Well there is an interesting conundrum. Gotham is made by Warner Brothers /DC Comics. But Fox is about to be bought by Disney which owns Marvel. Its entirely possible that Gotham gets wrapped up so DC doesn't have one their franchises operating under "the enemy". 

I’m a little confused on this - I thought Fox broadcasting wasn’t part of the Disney deal (but the cable channels and Hulu were)?

[jhlipton]

15 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

Victor Zsasz first appeared in S01E07, "Penguin's Umbrella". I don't believe he's done much before this season, and I think he had only one appearance in S2.

Was that the one with the Zsaszettes?  I guess Tabby took their part, but I would have liked to have seen more of them.

[WritinMan]

1 hour ago, The Kings Foot said:

Well there is an interesting conundrum. Gotham is made by Warner Brothers /DC Comics. But Fox is about to be bought by Disney which owns Marvel. Its entirely possible that Gotham gets wrapped up so DC doesn't have one their franchises operating under "the enemy". 

Disney is looking to buy certain properties from Fox (rumored to be things like the X-Men, Fantastic Four, etc.). They are not trying to purchase Fox (the company).

[Danielg342]

1 hour ago, jhlipton said:

Was that the one with the Zsaszettes?  I guess Tabby took their part, but I would have liked to have seen more of them.

The S2 appearance was the one with the Zsaszettes, I'm pretty sure. I don't recall them being in S3.

I would agree I would like to see more of the Zsaszettes. Maybe now that Zsasz is free of Penguin he'll bring them back (with some new recruits- two of the original Zsaszettes were shot to death if memory serves).

[Snookums]

Quote

 I guess Jim just didn't think 

You honestly could stop right there for most of what Jim does.

Groan...as many posters have said, watching Sophia put Jim in his place, the dummy, was deeply satisfying. And while I called her arranging the shooting pretty much right away, I was blindsided by the whole "Pyg works for me! He's a contract killer who mimics serial killers!" thing: very good, show! And I don't believe for a second that he's dead, he's far too valuable an asset. So there's that.

But once again, Jim cannot seem to see the truth when it's clobbering him upside the head like an exasperated Tabby: not only does he doggedly repeat the same actions over and over, insisting that this time a different result will magically occur, he also never realizes when things are NOT all his personal fault and ends up taking on guilt he doesn't need to shoulder.

We saw it during the whole Mario/Virus debacle, where he decided to feel endlessly, draggingly bad about taking out a guy who was about to kill Lee (now, granted, Lee shrieking at him every five minutes kept that wound fresh) and man, did that ever make season three trudge and dribble along like a dirty mop you're trying to get to the sink to wring out. But it also occurred a LOT  this season. 

Harvey's Et Tu, Brute? routine really started to wear thin after awhile: yes, Jim was a hypocrite, but Harvey was not one iota better, plus the whole spiraling drunk/pills/cowarding out on the bullet presentation thing. Jim may not own his choices but Harvey didn't either.

The entire Pax Penguina/licencing debacle.  Again, the ONLY person pointing out the absolute ridiculous unworkability of this thing was Jim Gordon? He was focused on the illegality of it--and he was right--but he also decided to be all butthurt over every single thing that resulted from it even though the vast majority of the fallout came about because the entire scheme was ridiculous.

And Sophia! During her big speech she quite properly shoved Jim's nose into his own piddle, but why did he never hold up a hand and say "wait a damn minute. You just admitted you were planning this from the moment we met. That means all those cop deaths are on you. There's no way you couldn't have set up a frame job to make me look like an embezzler, drug addict, or criminal running some kind of enterprise in the Narrows or something. Anything like that would have done perfectly well. This was not a 'straight line' or anything close to it." Oh, wait, I know why he didn't! BECAUSE HE'S AN IDIOT.

(And also, if these two were supposed to have had a full blown affair, why not just show the sex, and have her have pictures of them together? Again, easy and non murdery. While I admire Sophia's think-big abilities and depth of planning Jim really doesn't have to take the dead cop burden on. But he will. Oh, how he will.)

Onward to Bruce and Alfred, who frankly is in the running for Dummy Gold this week as well, because a lawyer cannot emancipate anybody. You have to go to court for that and show that Alfred is an unfit guardian--which would have been pretty easy since Bruce has been binge drinking in bars for the past few weeks and having minors over to his house to do various illegal things. Alfred's enabling of Bruce was getting quite wearying to watch, frankly. He's like Jim in the way he keeps insisting that Bruce is this one particular way and has no reason to go down a dark path. Dude, you had your own lost youth--when you were Bruce's age you were a hellraiser! Would young you have listened to old you? Now, quit pouting, you don't have to go anywhere--just move into the utterly forgotten Batcave!

I quite enjoyed the girls at the shootout although I have no idea why they were there in the first place. "YOUR LEFT! YOUR LEFT!"

Tabby trying to cure Butch her way was a riot. I bet he was faking after the first blow or two. You know these two like it rough.

 The whole Ed in love with Lee thing seems like kind of a nothing burger. They haven't been playing it that way at all. But if they do keep this up I hope it's unrequited, which would be more interesting and mean I do not have to watch Lee In Love yet again.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Snookums

[jhlipton]

19 minutes ago, Snookums said:

Tabby trying to cure Butch her way was a riot. I bet he was faking after the first blow or two. You know these two like it rough.

LOL

19 minutes ago, Snookums said:

[Noneofyourbusiness]

3 hours ago, Snookums said:

We saw it during the whole Mario/Virus debacle, where he decided to feel endlessly, draggingly bad about taking out a guy who was about to kill Lee (now, granted, Lee shrieking at him every five minutes kept that wound fresh) and man, did that ever make season three trudge and dribble along like a dirty mop you're trying to get to the sink to wring out.

Don't remind me. And yet no one in this powerful crime family that's been insulted by the death of their favorite son thought of having the man who jabbed Mario with a needle and infected him killed? He just gets away with it? That is completely unrealistic.

Yes, Lee, Mario did die because Jervis Tetch wanted to hurt Jim. Because Jim was doing his job. Should he let all criminals and psychos roam free without antagonizing them?

3 hours ago, Snookums said:

I quite enjoyed the girls at the shootout although I have no idea why they were there in the first place.

Penguin's men captured them because they were associated with Sofia.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Noneofyourbusiness]

3 hours ago, Snookums said:

Onward to Bruce and Alfred, who frankly is in the running for Dummy Gold this week as well, because a lawyer cannot emancipate anybody.

I didn't know that, but I'm not surprised. This is the same show where Jim's conviction was super-rushed even though the same holes in the case that eventually got him exonerated could easily have been found before he went to prison.

Also, no one points out to Bruce that killing someone who had already outlived his natural lifespan several times over (and wanted to be put out of his misery) isn't murder, it's restoring the natural order.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Noneofyourbusiness