S03.E09: The Sinnerman

[MostlyC]

Lucifer learns that recipients of his favors are turning up dead; Lucifer and Chloe come face to face with the Sinnerman; Detective Pierce returns to work; Charlotte finds a new career; Amenadiel finds a new love interest.

[Gigi43]

I have torewatch the episode  because  I missed probably half broken up but I really dislike the rewrite I caught just to have Chloe "connect" with Pierce. She hadn't  been  waiting years to face her father's killer until last year as it was implied, she found out the guy that was convicted  of his murder a long time ago didn't  do it and she had to be convinced because she really believed  the guy in jail did it. Yes she still found out it was someone  else and all but it still bugs.

 

Glad to have Maze back but I don't  want to deal with a triangle with Maze/Amen/Linda.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Gigi43

[storyskip]

Huh.

I wonder if the writers are going for a riff off "The First Ones" storyline from the comics.  That could be interesting indeed.

As for the rest of it ... is it bad that when Chloe went after the Sinnerman in the kitchen I briefly hoped that the show was going to pull a shocker and kill her off?

Just me?

Okay.

In other news the soundtrack for this show continues to be on point!

Edited December 5, 2017 by storyskip

[Bruinsfan]

I gotta say, the angels are getting less and less impressive with everything that's revealed about them on this show. My previous impression was that they had a wide variety of potentially vast supernatural powers available, but each specialized in one thing that suited their particular personality and viewpoint and they mostly avoided vulgar displays of power in the interest of fitting in. Now aside from a standard mostly physical package (that isn't enough to snap the lock on a freezer door, WTF?), they each have one special gift. That can be thwarted by wearing Ray-Bans, apparently.

[Ria]

It doesn’t even matter anymore if Lucifer and Amenadiel are angels or Maze is a demon. They’ve become too ordinary. And that’s bad for the show. 

[aradia22]

Tom Welling!!! 

OK, as you were. 

[Miss Dee]

Dear Lord, between D.B. Woodside's eyes and Tom Welling's guns, Miss Dee had a fine, fine time watching Lucifer tonight!

Okay, granted, Tom Ellis isn't too bad either when he's got his vulnerability going on.

Linda, Maze is great but she's a demon and inherently selfish. You go get yourself some angel-lovin', especially from an angel who looks like that!

Damn, that ending. Sinnerman is hardcore.

[janeta]

Well, at least Chloe wasn't as dumb as she's been being lately... Sinnerman is kind of interesting; will be interested in seeing what his deal is.

[FormerMod-a1]

I feel for Linda, but that pairing would just be so icky to me.  Amenadude is Maze's ex and Maze is Linda's friend, plus he's Luci's brother who she's been with.    The brother stuff should squick them both out, and the Maze stuff should at least give Linda pause (which it looks like it did).  

[enoughcats]

13 minutes ago, janeta said:

at least Chloe wasn't as dumb as she's been being lately..

I continue to hate how Chloe turns into an awkward pre-teen when she's near Tom Welling.  At his introduction, she started blithering when she tried to communicate with him.  It continued tonight.  Unless there's some deep insightful secret behind the two of them, a female detective should not change personality that way.  

It was a delightful surprise to have a new episode tonight, but I had gotten out of the habit expecting continuity from one week to the next.

[CaptainTightpants]

I hate to say it out loud so to speak, but I was really disappointed with Maze's return. I thought her interactions with Lucifer and Linda were out of character. She is petulant with Lucifer and brushes off his imprisonment in the factory. I was shaking my head throughout her scenes.

And worst of all her return was lacking in the signature Maze humour! She is pretty much my favorite character so I hope it was just an off episode.

[CaptainTightpants]

Im back to thinking there is some kind of celestial asshattery going on with Pierce. It was "the Sinnerman killed my brother" line that did it for me. So im thinking that Pierce IS an angel of some kind and he is out to avenge Uriel. All that dialogue between Linda and Amy about individual angel abilities has to be leading up to something. 

[johntfs]

46 minutes ago, CaptainTightpants said:

So im thinking that Pierce IS an angel of some kind and he is out to avenge Uriel.

Except that the Sinnerman is a real, other person and Lucifer killed Uriel in Las Vegas.  Meanwhile, Lucifer would know all the various angels, so he'd have been able to recognize Pierce as one.

[storyskip]

Comic spoiler time

Spoiler

The first story arc from the comics revolves around "The First Ones".  Little gods that were around in the beginning, they fed off the wishes of early humans.  Lucifer is 'hired' by the Silver City to defeat these "First Ones" as they are wreaking havoc on Earth.  He can't take them on directly, but works through a human who was 'cursed' by the First Ones with a wish.  She wished her disabled brother dead and he died (sound familiar?) and so ends up working with Lucifer to wish the First Ones never existed.

Given that the Sinnerman knew what to do to render Lucifer's powers ineffective (though I call BS on Lucifer being trapped even in reinforced steel) I could see him having somehow come into contact with a power like the First Ones.  Likewise Pierce could have had a similar run in (I won't be surprised if he somehow 'wished' his brother dead) that would give him a window into the supernatural without his being celestial or Silver City touched.  This may have nothing to do with the Silver City and the celestial forces Lucifer and Amen belong too, but to supernatural forces outside the Silver City.

[GaT]

Bored now.

[flyingdi]

Why is the devil, who absolutely knows all about humans and their desires, so freaking naive?  It is getting tiresome.

Marcus Pierce's angel superpower is the ability to hide his true nature from other angels.  I'm calling it!

[Happy Harpy]

Way better than I expected. Some hiccups in the writing (I would like the show to acknowledge that Mom affected Charlotte's personality and not only her perspective on life, death and hell).

I still think that the Sinnerman is a decoy and not the one who took Lucifer's face, but Lucifer's obsession wasn't completely off the mark and it was welcome. The last scene was pretty effective.

Chloe kicked ass as a cop, in her law and order glory. I love it when a characterization is coherent*. I loved the Charlotte/Chloe association, nice chemistry between the actresses, and Charlotte as a prosecutor is a good way of keeping her around. I'm shipping Charlotte and Dan, so much.

*Except, the crush. They're trying so hard to make fetch happen with Chloe and Pierce, and it so doesn't work. I can tolerate Pierce, stilted acting and lack of chemistry included, during scenes like the stakeout where he isn't a sudden female IQ killer (re: Ella and Chloe). And considering that Chloe barely takes a personal day off, he had no business insisting on why.

MAZE! Welcome back! I'm glad that she was her hornet nest's kicking self. I'm glad that she didn't take Lucifer's blowing her off (so much better than S1 Maze). I love that she was honest about how she felt.  Now gimme some Maze/Trixie and Maze/Chloe, thanks. Oh, and I want to see her facing Charlotte, too.

I hate love triangles, so part of me isn't happy at all re: Maze/Amenadiel/Linda. On the other hand, I hate it when shows retcon relationships when they want to establish a new one so I'm kind of glad the show didn't. I do like the connection between Amenadiel and Linda, but I love Amenadiel and Maze. Linda can make mistakes, too, and I don't love her less for it, but I'm worried how it could affect Maze to realize that her best friend lied to her.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Happy Harpy

[Ailianna]

We don't know for sure that there is something started with Dr. Linda and Amenadiel.  Yes, he kissed her, but she said stop (which he did, even though you could see he was somewhat hurt and confused).  It could be that the awkwardness we saw in Dr. Linda when Maze appeared was just because of the kiss, and she felt awkward, not because Amenadiel's big brown eyes and puppy dog face made her change her mind.  I thought we would see Amenadiel hiding somewhere in the office and know that Dr. Linda was hiding something from Maze.  Since we didn't, I'm keeping an open mind that Dr. Linda is the kind of woman who says no when she means no, and sticks to it.

[Kelda Feegle]

Pretty sure Linda is the luckiest woman on Earth! She's bonked Lucifer, had her butt grabbed and rubbed by Maze, and possibly bonked Amenadiel (at the least she's played tonsil hockey with him). Plus she knows all the celestial stuff (Angel School LOL) and hasn't gone mad.

[Mabinogia]

12 hours ago, storyskip said:

I wonder if the writers are going for a riff off "The First Ones" storyline from the comics.  That could be interesting indeed.

As for the rest of it ... is it bad that when Chloe went after the Sinnerman in the kitchen I briefly hoped that the show was going to pull a shocker and kill her off?

Just me?

Definitely not just you. I realized that I would rather Charlotte stay then Chloe.

Linda and Amen were everything. I actually squealed like a little schoolgirl when they kissed. Sinnerman was a HUGE disappointment until the end when he gouged his eyes out since I assumed the cop who walked out was SM in disguise and he'd escaped.

[Happy Harpy]

2 hours ago, Ailianna said:

We don't know for sure that there is something started with Dr. Linda and Amenadiel.  Yes, he kissed her, but she said stop (which he did, even though you could see he was somewhat hurt and confused).  It could be that the awkwardness we saw in Dr. Linda when Maze appeared was just because of the kiss, and she felt awkward, not because Amenadiel's big brown eyes and puppy dog face made her change her mind.  I thought we would see Amenadiel hiding somewhere in the office and know that Dr. Linda was hiding something from Maze.  Since we didn't, I'm keeping an open mind that Dr. Linda is the kind of woman who says no when she means no, and sticks to it.

Except that after Linda said no and Amenadiel apologized, the scene cut on them kissing again. It seems pretty sure to me that something started.

I suspect that Amenadiel was indeed in Linda's office. But Linda didn't know how Maze felt then -both she and Amenadiel downplayed her reaction before they kissed. Now that she does, I think she will end her relationship with Amenadiel. Or at least she'll try to, it depends of course on the level of drama the writers want, and on which level they want the drama to be. Example: If they want Linda/Amenadiel as star-crossed lovers and preserve the Linda/Maze friendship, Maze will realize Linda's sacrifice and eventually give them her blessing (or the demonic equivalent).  But if they want a conflict between Maze and Linda, things will go differently.

[Bruinsfan]

Linda was able to eventually shake off the fascination that Lucifer inspires in everyone he's sexually interested in (besides Chloe), so I'd like to think she has the self-awareness and mental discipline to resist doing something that would hurt one of her friends. Particularly since the attraction seems to have developed naturally rather than hitting her like a supernaturally charged freight train all at once. And it's fairly icky when you consider all the tangential relationships involved.

I felt like the stuff about Chloe being distracted by Lieutenant Underwear Model's arms (should he be doing heavy lifting a few weeks after taking bullets to the torso?) while Ella ships them out loud was written by a preteen girl. Who is the staff member who's pushing this crap, and can we pack them off to a Justin Bieber concert tour and let the writer who's been handling Amenadiel's and Linda's scenes take over their responsibilities?

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, Bruinsfan said:

while Ella ships them out loud was written by a preteen girl.

I found it a refreshing change from every single character shiping Lucy and Chloe every time they are a) in the same place, b) mentioned in the same sentence c) one mentions the other or d) pretty much any time anyone has lines.

I agree that Maze seemed off. Like, is she in the middle of a midlife crisis or something? If they ruin Maze IDK how much longer I'll stick around. It's bad enough this Chloe crap is de-clawing Lucifer. I can't take Maze going all emo too. Someone upthread mentioned that the supernatural beings are becoming too ordinary (not exact words) and I agree. A show that features the Devil, an angel and a demon from hell shouldn't be devolving into a basic cop show. Even Sinnerman is just the Dollhouse Killer or whatever from CSI, or that british chick from Criminal Intent, or every other main big bad from every other cop show ever made. If it weren't for the Linda/Amen scene's this show would be boring. This show shouldn't be boring. It's about the bloody devil!

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Linda is a therapist, she has to know that any physical relationship with Ami is going to affect a lot of people.  Yes, I know she already slept with Lucifer, so that ship has sailed.  Still, she has crossed ethical lines that she shouldn't have.

Amenadiel is not her patient and they're both consenting adults.  A sexual relationship between them might be problematic considering their other relationships, but it certainly isn't unethical in terms of Linda as a therapist (unlike her relationship with Lucifer, which technically was unethical).

I find that I really feel for Charlotte because nobody gets what she's really going through.  Most of them assume she's just decided to try to be a better person.  They don't realize that she's desperately try to avoid going back to Hell.  She was crying in the men's room because she felt she was fucking up the thing that would keep her out of Hell.

I'm really annoyed by the way the show keeps trying to push Chloe and Pierce together.  The worst part is that they work okay when there's no pushing, as in the car when they bonded a bit over lost loved ones.

I don't think the Sinnerman is a supernatural.  I think he's more someone who has figured out enough of the "rules" of the supernatural to be dangerous.

[theatremouse]

3 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

I thought he was still in the room and assumed he did it with Linda.   Granted, we didn't see him there at the end of the episode, but I have a gut feeling that the deed was done.

I can't remember if his time-stoppy stuff only affects humans or if it could work on Maze too. If so, I assume that delay between Linda responding to the door was intentional, not just to give the audience a giant anvil clue that something may have been going on behind the door, but also for the possibility that he used the moment to actually straight up leave (if the time freeze does freeze Maze).

[Bruinsfan]

If the Sinnerman doesn't know for certain he has seriously impressive supernatural backing, playing cat and mouse with and taunting the frickin' Devil is a supremely foolish endeavor. Or would be if Lucifer weren't being written as dimwitted and possessing less impressive tricks than your average stage magician. Being a mortal crime lord and serial killer who's making a personal enemy out of the guy he presumably thinks is charge of Hell just makes no sense. At least when Linda's husband was taking potshots at Lucifer and trying to manipulate him into a fatal situation it was obvious that learning the truth had sparked a serious psychiatric meltdown for someone who wasn't particularly stable to start with.

[enoughcats]

2 hours ago, johntfs said:

I find that I really feel for Charlotte because nobody gets what she's really going through.  Most of them assume she's just decided to try to be a better person.  They don't realize that she's desperately try to avoid going back to Hell.  She was crying in the men's room because she felt she was fucking up the thing that would keep her out of Hell.

I don't get it.  I took it as (dare I say gospel) when she awoke/came out of it at the beach that it was Charlotte 1.0 and she didn't have any memory of what had happened when she was Charlotte 2.0=DevilMommy.  C 1.0 had no notion of where her body or soul had been while C2.0 was in control.  

Then we saw her, still confused, having lost her 1.0 children and IIRC her law practice.  But she was still 1.0.   

Did I snooze where she 1.0 had a glimpse or more of Hell?  Much less an awakening?

[theatremouse]

It was in a previous episode that it was revealed that while Mom (I believe you're calling Charlotte 2.0) was in Charlotte's body, actual-Charlotte was in hell. When she woke on the beach, her memories on Earth basically stopped when she got murdered, then she experienced hell until waking up again on said beach, not knowing what Mom had done while in her body.

[wilnil]

6 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

Except that after Linda said no and Amenadiel apologized, the scene cut on them kissing again. It seems pretty sure to me that something started.

I suspect that Amenadiel was indeed in Linda's office. But Linda didn't know how Maze felt then -both she and Amenadiel downplayed her reaction before they kissed. Now that she does, I think she will end her relationship with Amenadiel. Or at least she'll try to, it depends of course on the level of drama the writers want, and on which level they want the drama to be. Example: If they want Linda/Amenadiel as star-crossed lovers and preserve the Linda/Maze friendship, Maze will realize Linda's sacrifice and eventually give them her blessing (or the demonic equivalent).  But if they want a conflict between Maze and Linda, things will go differently.

While I was watching I was figuring Amenadiel was hiding in the office and was going to be discovered somehow by Maze (which I would've hated, since it's practically the Original Cliche). But afterward, I decided that he wasn't there at all, but that Linda was hoping he'd come back, and that's why she was surprised and awkward with Maze when she turned up at the door instead.

I hope they go with Linda breaking it off with Amenadiel rather than hurt the Linda/Maze friendship, though.

[tennisgurl]

So, we meet the Sinnerman, at last. If this guy isn't some kind of supernatural, I have to admire the balls he has. He is screwing with and calling out the literal Devil. I have no clue what his end game is, but, is it worth it, dude? Is it really? Will this help expand your sweater vest collection somehow? I do admit, I can appreciate the level of evil pettiness in hacking his own eyes out just to Lucifer cant get the one up on him. Man is hardcore. 

So, all angels have a special power? I always assumed they could do a lot of things, just they all had one, specific thing they were really good at? While I enjoy watching the angels/demons on this show explore their humanity and connection to Earth, I dont want them to become TOO human, or this just becomes another procedural with a weird backstory and bible imagery. 

So, they are really going hard on this Pierce/Chloe thing, huh? Quick tip, writers. Dont have characters point out to other characters how much chemistry they have with another person, when the audience hardly knows them. It just makes the audience annoyed, instead of selling us on a pairing. Tom Welling was better this episode, now that he gets to show emotions beyond "stoic asshole", but I cant say I`m that invested in his obsession with the Sinnerman, or in his dead brother angst. Of course, I would be interested in seeing if theres more to him than as one third of a love triangle. 

If I was Linda, I wouldn't as weirded out by dating my friends ex, as I would be dating my kind of exs brother. Yeah, Lucifer wouldn't care, but its still a little weird. It reminds me too much of the weird Lance sister swap vibe on Arrow for awhile. 

[wilnil]

3 hours ago, johntfs said:

I don't think the Sinnerman is a supernatural.  I think he's more someone who has figured out enough of the "rules" of the supernatural to be dangerous.

There's got to be something unusual with him -- for now, I'm guessing he's acting as an earthly agent for some celestial, such as a heavenly angel or one who fell with Lucifer and resents his now abandoning Hell.

But the writers so far have confounded all my guesses on where they're going with the Sinnerman, though. Just in this episode, I started out thinking he was supernatural (knowing so much about Lucifer, and taunting him about not being able to find out his desires), then thinking the supernatural part was that he was possessing that particular man's body (I'm still keeping that as a possibility, actually), then thinking the guy was a patsy playing the part while the "real" Sinnerman stayed in the shadows, then I gave up guessing.

Part of it was that the plot was well done in dodging the obvious cliches after the Sinnerman was captured: He didn't use the sharp item he'd palmed to pick the lock on the cuffs, or to stab a cop and flee, or to escape from the precinct, he just OMFG HE PUT OUT HIS OWN FRIGGING EYES! JUST TO TAUNT LUCIFER SOME MORE! THIS GUY IS HARDCORE!

Edited December 5, 2017 by wilnil
and it looks like @tennisgurl and I agree on the "hardcore" part...

[Ailianna]

7 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

Except that after Linda said no and Amenadiel apologized, the scene cut on them kissing again. It seems pretty sure to me that something started.

I did not see this!  How did that happen:?  (Mostly my not seeing this...)

[kikaha]

Here's a speculation: the Sinnerman is actually the new lieutenant.  My thinking:

* Sinnerman and the lieutenant both arrived on the Las Vegas scene at the same time;

* Holding a powerful position in the police department would give the Sinnerman loads of inside info on what the police were up to.  That could make him almost impossible to catch;

* Capturing the 'fake' Sinnerman, as he did this episode, diverts attention away from the lieutenant.  i.e. it sets up a patsy for him.  It's also another reason he was so determined to take part in the sting operation with Chloe this episode;

* The guy they arrested as Sinnerman took the incredible step of gouging out his own eyes, just so he wouldn't have to face Lucifer.  Why would he really care about that, unless he had astonishing info to hide?  The that he is not Sinnerman (if that's true) fits that meme perfectly;   

* The lieutenant is making lots of headway in his plan to seduce Chloe, using a long-game scheme.  A great way to hurt Lucifer, who himself is in love with her (the lieutenant knows this, too). 

* Seems awfully early in the season for the Sinnerman crisis to end.  We hardly got to know him.  But if the lieutenant is in reality Sinnerman, the story can unfold for the rest of the season, not merely as Lucifer trying to piece the Sinnerman enigma together after the fact, but moving forward, dealing with this astonishingly powerful threat.

If any of this right, I suspect the lieutenant/Sinnerman is more than human.  That could explain how he survived the bullet in his chest a few episodes ago... how he knows so much about Lucifer... and why he has so much power over crime and his followers (convincing someone to blind himself to protect you requires a helluva lot of power). 

[Helena Dax]

The last scene was cool but I didn't love the rest. I agree with you all. And I don't get it because the last scene showed that Tom Ellis still has it. He still can give the non-human, very threatening vibes. So it's a choice. There's someone out there (a writer, a director, a producer, maybe Ellis himself) who thought: "hey, in this scene where Lucifer and Sinnerman talk for the first time, Lucifer shouldn't be scary at all.".

Sometimes I feel TV writers in general are afraid of writing non-human characters and commiting to it. Or maybe they don't know how to do it. I mean, wasn't Maze forged in Hell with the only purpose of protecting Lucifer? Why is she dealing with human problems and reacting to them like a human would do? Is really "they're becoming more human" the most interesting development you can find for non-human characters?

Chloe and her boss are an awful pairing. They're the same kind of character: serious, responsible... It would totally work in real life but it's a nightmare of boredom in fiction. 

I'm still interested in finding out who gave Lucifer his wings back and why, though. The Sinnerman we saw was human and he shouldn't have been able to do that, so there must be something else going on. Some episodes with juicy supernatural stuff would be most welcome.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 12/5/2017 at 10:01 AM, Happy Harpy said:

On 12/5/2017 at 7:12 AM, Ailianna said:

We don't know for sure that there is something started with Dr. Linda and Amenadiel.  Yes, he kissed her, but she said stop (which he did, even though you could see he was somewhat hurt and confused).  It could be that the awkwardness we saw in Dr. Linda when Maze appeared was just because of the kiss, and she felt awkward, not because Amenadiel's big brown eyes and puppy dog face made her change her mind.  I thought we would see Amenadiel hiding somewhere in the office and know that Dr. Linda was hiding something from Maze.  Since we didn't, I'm keeping an open mind that Dr. Linda is the kind of woman who says no when she means no, and sticks to it.

Except that after Linda said no and Amenadiel apologized, the scene cut on them kissing again. It seems pretty sure to me that something started.

I suspect that Amenadiel was indeed in Linda's office. But Linda didn't know how Maze felt then -both she and Amenadiel downplayed her reaction before they kissed. Now that she does, I think she will end her relationship with Amenadiel. Or at least she'll try to, it depends of course on the level of drama the writers want, and on which level they want the drama to be. Example: If they want Linda/Amenadiel as star-crossed lovers and preserve the Linda/Maze friendship, Maze will realize Linda's sacrifice and eventually give them her blessing (or the demonic equivalent).  But if they want a conflict between Maze and Linda, things will go differently.

Linda's hair appeared mussed when she answered Maze's knock, so, I, too, thought Amenadiel was hiding.  But since he didn't appear after there conversation, I guess he wasn't there. Points to the show for not using that obvious trope.

On 12/5/2017 at 4:52 PM, wilnil said:

While I was watching I was figuring Amenadiel was hiding in the office and was going to be discovered somehow by Maze (which I would've hated, since it's practically the Original Cliche). But afterward, I decided that he wasn't there at all, but that Linda was hoping he'd come back, and that's why she was surprised and awkward with Maze when she turned up at the door instead.

Exactly.

On 12/5/2017 at 2:43 PM, theatremouse said:

I can't remember if his time-stoppy stuff only affects humans or if it could work on Maze too. If so, I assume that delay between Linda responding to the door was intentional, not just to give the audience a giant anvil clue that something may have been going on behind the door, but also for the possibility that he used the moment to actually straight up leave (if the time freeze does freeze Maze).

Can he still stop time?  I know he did it when he saved Linda's life. but I thought that was a special one-time gift from his father.

The whole Sinnerman thing is still a mystery only because Chloe stopped Lucifer from questioning him after he was captured and Lucifer listened to her!  He absolutely should have confronted him on the scene, while he was handcuffed.  Also, whoever searches prisoners did a very bad job. I know the Lieutenant cuffed him, but he still should have been searched at some point.

Edited December 7, 2017 by ItCouldBeWorse

[Jlina]

Quote

Here's a speculation: the Sinnerman is actually the new lieutenant.  My thinking:

I agree completely, signed in just to write this for when I was proven right! LOL.

Everything about the guy is off.  Not just the bad acting, his showing up and everything he's done since.  Agree on a long game with Chloe too. I think he'll be evil but then..why the hell wouldn't Lucifer recognize evil??!  In general he has taken no notice of the guy so he's below his radar?  The guy sucked up to him effectively?

And umm...for all the shippers, I must say that Chloe seems to be able to fantasize about someone other than Lucifer just fine.  Which is totally odd - esp. since he doesn't. The whole relationship is odd really.

I thought the guy with the pencil - although it sure looked like metal when it was first shown - was going to stab Lucifer with Chloe around.  Mind gaming him was very effective but yeah....

He punches one small hole in one wall and decides he's trapped?  Sheesh!  And Maze shows up not to do her reason for being thing but to talk it out in a huff??

Completely agree show is losing it's specialness.  Sad, so sad.

Amenadiel was hiding somewhere in the room...no doubt.  Blech.  QUIT ANTHROPOMORPHISIZING CELESTIAL BEINGS, writers, you jerks!!! How oh how can they be ruining this so spectacularly?  Sleepy Holly syndrome?

[theatremouse]

I thought he decided he was trapped because when he tried to punch a hole in the wall he was unable to do so.

[Ria]

I thought about the lieutenant being the Sinnerman as well. It would at least make him interesting. 

I like the friendship between Amenadiel and Linda. But why make it sexual or romantic? I really think the writers are out of ideas. They have no idea what to do with any of the characters. The only thing they can think of is putting Linda and Amenadiel together and Chloe and the Lieutenant. I’m glad Maze is back but instead of kickass, she’s jealous. None of the characters are as well written as previous seasons. What’s happened to this show? 

[kikaha]

4 hours ago, Jlina said:

Completely agree show is losing it's specialness.  Sad, so sad.

 

I agree with you.  The writers have made Lucifer too ordinary, too vulnerable (physically and emotionally), too human.  I guess that's the point, but even so it's made the show less special. 

[wilnil]

Long post warning:

In general, I really like this show, so my reaction to the lesser episodes hasn't been "I hate this," more like "that was less enjoyable than the better episodes were." So maybe take my view on things with a grain of salt (and note that I'm not very religious and some of these notions are more "pop theology" than anyone's idea of orthodoxy) ...

• Re Lucifer/Chloe, I honestly don't think the showrunners are so invested in the idea of shipping them as they are in what their relationship (whatever it is or becomes) will teach Lucifer. Because...
• I think they've dropped numerous clues that Goal One for the series is to explore the idea of free will as it relates to (Judeo-Christian) God's creation. As presented, no celestial being other than God himself, even Mom, has cared at all about humanity, and they've even expressed resentment over how much of God's attention has been focused on those pipsqueak mortals. God's endgame here seems to be to rub his celestial children's noses in earthly matters until they start to see that these lesser beings are also a key part of his creation. So maybe even Amenadiel or Lucifer getting tangled in a love triangle has a Purpose.
• No one, even the angels, knows what God's Plan is, and that's where I'm guessing the free will is going to come in: that the beauty of this creation is in how God has designed it so that its inhabitants, without even knowing God's intentions, choose a path that leads to the good outcome he desires. (See spoilerish note at end.)
• On the inconsistencies in how much power Lucifer and other angels have, remember that this isn't a "superhero" show where there's (supposed to be) some hand-wavey "scientific" explanation for their abilities with a consistent definition of those abilities and their limitations. What Lucifer, Amenadiel etc. can do are literally gifts from God, and "the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away." I imagine Lucy et al. could break down a barred steel door if it served the needs of Heaven for them to do it; if not, they're on their own with only their native strength available.
• Related: At some point I realized that the "rules" for how Lucifer's mortality around Chloe works also only makes sense if they're set by God's intent rather than physical laws. It looks to me that she doesn't have to be in the same room or even building to affect him; he becomes mortal whenever she's close enough to be able to catch him doing something angelic if she so chose (for example, she has to chase the poisoning professor far enough that she couldn't run back in time to see Lucifer wading through a roomful of poison gas before he can actually do that).

I never read either of the graphic novel series that inspired the show, but I've read about them, and some of that seems to go in a similar direction on God's Plan etc.:

 

Spoiler

As I understand it, in the graphic novels, Lucifer eventually realizes that he was sent to Hell not to be punished or be a punisher but to have the chance to redeem himself and the other sinners.

[Rushmoras]

While this episode gets "kudos" from me for bringing back the supernatural element, but in my opinion it fell a bit flat on some of the aspects - mainly interactions with Maze felt a bit off (probably because I can't even remember (cause she's been gone for so long) why is she pissed at Lucifer (disregarding the normal stuff why she would be pissed at him), apparently Lucifer's great weaknesses are sunglasses and thick walls (even Angel (from BTVS and Angel) could have gotten out from there by continuously punching the wall for an hour or so, so why couldn't the Devil, the whole explanation about angels are blessed with one specific trait falls short for my liking, also I did not like this constant humanizing of Lucifer and Amenedude (with Amendude, I get it, he lost his powers. But, dude, couldn't you, I don't know, go searching for the reasons why you lost your powers and do something about it. But with Lucifer - not so much.). Also, liked the ending. Either the Sinnerman is just crazy m'fker, who by accident found-out about the supernatural and wants to mickey about, or he's something else.

 

Anyways, this episode is a lost better than those 5 or so stand-alone episodes that we got. At least in my opinion.

[lorbeer]

Am I the only dissapointed with Sinnerman?

[kikaha]

Another possible (maybe far-fetched) piece of info that could connect Sinnerman to the lieutenant:  the lieutenant's name is Marcus Pierce.  Marcus is derived from the Roman god of war, Mars.  Could the showrunners bring a whole other pantheon of god-like creatures into play, or at  least one? 

Stretching further, 'pierce' is exactly what the supposed Sinnerman did to his eyes in jail. 

[storyskip]

20 minutes ago, kikaha said:

Another possible (maybe far-fetched) piece of info that could connect Sinnerman to the lieutenant:  the lieutenant's name is Marcus Pierce.  Marcus is derived from the Roman god of war, Mars.  Could the showrunners bring a whole other pantheon of god-like creatures into play, or at  least one? 

Stretching further, 'pierce' is exactly what the supposed Sinnerman did to his eyes in jail. 

My speculation was put behind a spoiler cut because it contained comic spoilers, but this "another pantheon" separate from the Silver City is my theory at this point.  In which case I don't think we've seen the last of the Sinnerman.

[Gummo]

Meh. As others have pointed out, the characters feeling "off" this season continues. Unfortunately, interspersing new episodes with season 2 holdovers only emphasizes how far the character consistency and writing has fallen.

Suddenly, Ella and Chloe are both behaving like giddy teenagers. Again. Suddenly, Maze is jealous and confused and able to turn her back on Lucifer, instead of being a powerful and vindictive demon of hell whose very existence is dedicated to guarding Lucifer. In the first season, Amenadude came off as such a powerful celestial, he could barely be contained in a mortal body; now he's Mr. Rogers. Every character has been diminished to the point where their celestial power is reduced to an easily categorized gimmick.

And now the show is working so hard to worm the Charlotte character back into the proceedings and I couldn't care less. She wasn't interesting last season and she's not interesting now. The new lieutenant is just as bad and trying to force him & Chloe together reeks of "who haven't we paired off yet" writing. Lucifer started off as the ultimate Mr. Cool, now he's Mr. Whiny and Vaguely Ridiculous. It's sad.

The first season of Lucifer was one of the most effortless, stylish affairs I've seen on TV in years. Now it seems like EVERYTHING on this show is an effort, and all the seams are showing.

Edited December 6, 2017 by Gummo
grammar!

[Mabinogia]

9 minutes ago, Gummo said:

now he's Mr. Whiny and Vaguely Ridiculous.

I'm both laughing (because that name is brilliantly hilarious) and crying (because that name is sadly true).

 

9 minutes ago, Gummo said:

The first season of Lucifer was one of the most effortless, stylish affairs I've seen on TV in years.

Well said! *claps* It was so stylish and so effortless. It was like film noir. It was sexy and fun. This season is all over the place. There are still some fun moments but they are fewer and farther between. The only time I find it really stylish is when they do overheads of Lucy's car speeding along. That car is sex on wheels! And all the effort to tell us Lucy and Chloe should hook up and that Peirce is there to make Lucy jealous. Hell, this episode even the ever stylish badass Maze was bloody pedestrian. Thank god for Amen's hotness. Seriously, that man is SMOKIN! You go get it Linda! And Linda's general awesomeness, I love that she is grilling the angels about what it's like to be an angel.

I know I've said it many, many times, but this show could do without Chloe. Sadly, lately, this show could do without Lucifer too. All his hotness is being whined off of him. Grow a pair dude. You're the bloody Devil! Act lik

[kikaha]

2 hours ago, storyskip said:

My speculation was put behind a spoiler cut because it contained comic spoilers, but this "another pantheon" separate from the Silver City is my theory at this point.  In which case I don't think we've seen the last of the Sinnerman.

Didn't Lucifer open a 'gate' to another universe, and send his mother there?  If there are other universes, other gods could rule in them.  Maybe Sinnerman/Pierce is Mars from one of those universes, who opened a gate into ours, similar to how Lucifer opened the gate for his Mom. 

Fun to speculate, anyway.  (I have not seen any of the comics or read/heard anything about them, i.e. this is all my own spec.)

[aradia22]

Quote

Sinnerman was a HUGE disappointment until the end when he gouged his eyes out since I assumed the cop who walked out was SM in disguise and he'd escaped.

100% the same. I think that was a red herring but it was kind of an anticlimactic one. A villain crazy enough to gouge his eyes out is intense I guess... But I'd have more respect for a villain who, you know, was effective enough to get away. 'Look at how badass I am, I maimed myself' is a weird note to end on. He seems more focused on irritating Lucifer than self-preservation and actually being a threat.

Also, I don't really watch the show. I just catch it when my parents are watching. Sinnerman was already low on the intimidation scale for me because I walked by and in Lucifer's accent I thought he was saying "Cinnamon." 

Edited December 6, 2017 by aradia22

[Mabinogia]

36 minutes ago, aradia22 said:

But I'd have more respect for a villain who, you know, was effective enough to get away. 'Look at how badass, I am I maimed myself' is a weird note to end on. He seems more focused on irritating Lucifer than self-preservation and actually being a threat.

Exactly. I don't get what the Sinnerman's end game here is. Unless he's some sort of supernatural entity he is now blind, and in police custody. So, Lucy can't do the deepest desire trick on him. He wouldn't have been able to had Sinnerman, you know, escaped, either. That was classic cutting off one's nose (eyes) despite one's face action there. I'm sure it was just for effect. Ooh, look how edgy our show is, this guy gouged his eyes out. But it just makes the big bad villain look like a moron. I have to think he's supernatural. If he's human, he's an idiot, well, now he's a blind idiot. What I don't get is, if Peirce followed him from wherever (I barely pay attention to anything he says) because he killed his bro, that means Sinnerman isn't Lucifer specific. So why is he all 100% thwart Lucifer now?

Yeah, more I think about it, less I like the whole Sinnerman plot.

[enoughcats]

4 hours ago, Gummo said:

The first season of Lucifer was one of the most effortless, stylish affairs I've seen on TV in years. Now it seems like EVERYTHING on this show is an effort, and all the seams are showing.

ITA.  I really wanted to rewatch those episodes two or three times.

1 hour ago, Mabinogia said:

Yeah, more I think about it, less I like the whole Sinnerman plot.

I might like the plot, if there were more "Plot" in it.  This feels like coming into a movie 2/3 of the way through and staying for the popcorn, not the movie.