Avengers: Infinity War (2018)

[Raja]

On 4/28/2018 at 6:58 PM, Lugal said:

Not necessarily.  Strange may have foreseen Quill's actions anyway.  There was any number of things that could have gone wrong in every timeline, and Thanos definitely had the advantage going in.  Dr. Strange examined millions of possible timelines and there was a lot of things that could go wrong, kind of a "for want of a nail" situation.

I noticed when Tony Stark asked Dr Strange how could he do it he answered something like it was the only way. This was after earlier said he went through the results of millions of variations with only one success. For a TV thematic tie in over on Agents of SHIELD that has been a running debate the last few episodes of how could you do that and why one character made 'the hard call" or personal sacrifice while other characters didn't in that show's end of the earth scenario.

7 hours ago, SeanC said:

Is that clear?  There's no particular rhyme or reason to who lives or dies.

As far as the roster for the next film goes, I expect we'll see Scott and Hope join the remaining heroes, much the same as Clint.  Them not being in this one was presumably so that they could do the Wasp introduction story in their own movie.  That will also have the comics original Avengers all together for the first time, after a fashion (not Scott and Hope, but Ant-Man and the Wasp).

I'm not sure how much time there was for the success of Black Panther to meaningfully affect the production of Avengers 4, but I'd expect that if there was any such room, it'll mean giving Black Panther's supporting cast (all of whom survived, surprisingly) a decent presence.

I missed that it was the first comics team plus a few friends. I truly expected Captain America to fall in this one but we go into Avengers 4 with the original MCU Avengers with some help.

[Dee]

I need at least one scene of an un-dusted Sam & Bucky chasing Rocket, who is making off Bucky's bionic arm, in A4.

[SimoneS]

7 hours ago, InsertWordHere said:

Although I cannot become invisible, I’m pretty much Drax when it comes to the pirate angel, so I am really glad to read that others loved him just as much. I came into this movie expecting to love all of Thor’s scenes with the Guardians and I was not disappointed. I loved the humor, but I especially loved his non-judgemental reaction when he learned Gamora was Thanos’ daughter. “Eh, we all have relations who turn into snakes and scare us or pull out our eyes and try to kill us. Doesn’t make us bad people.” Thor’s compassion is his best of many good features. 

 

That scene made me smile (even wider). They set up it like Thor was going attack her, only for him to be compassionate and understanding since he has been there. I have grown to love Thor so much.

Edited April 30, 2018 by SimoneS

[Jediknight]

13 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

After Nebula escaped and ended up attacking Thanos, she even tells him that he should have killed her when he had the chance, and he told her it would  have been "a waste of parts." If I get my wish, he's going to regret finding her beneath his notice. Bad enough he used her as bait to lure Gamora in, this is just another thing to add to her extensive list of reasons to kill him.

I want Steve to use the Stormbreaker on Thanos, followed by Nebula landing shots and doing damage, and then Hulk comes out to play and says "Hulk, smash!", and that's all the signal to Thanos that he's well and truly screwed, and Tony realizes that this is the scenario that Strange saw.

[starri]

It did make me sad that Steve lost two of his boyfriends at once. 

The movie wasn’t perfect, but it still kicked names and took ass. 

[benteen]

Quote

I'm a huge Guardians fan - they may just be my favorite franchise in the entire Marvelverse - yet I was disappointed in how Quill was shown here. IMO what make him work in the Guardians movies is that he's a lovable a-hole, but here I felt they went too strong on the a-hole, and too light on the lovable part. I realize there's only so much time in this movie to spread between many, many characters, yet I don't think this quite did him justice. MMV. Though I will grant that his snark with Tony and Strange when they met up (and stopped fighting) was priceless beyond words. "What master do you serve?" "You mean like Jesus?" "OK, you're clearly from Earth." "I'm from Missouri." "That's on Earth, dipshit." HA!!

I think this is an excellent assessment on the problems I had with Quill in this movie.  I was surprised with how they "devolved" the character.  He's funny of course but you would never have known he went through what he did in Guardians 2.  Any development he made at the end of Guardians 2 is wiped away to revert him back to his original Guardians persona of cracking jokes and not taking things seriously whatsoever.  Gamorra's pain with Thaons is obvious and you would think Peter would understand this considering his recent that issues with his own father (or even adopted father).  But his reaction to it to crack jokes and not take what's going on seriously.  He's played more for comic relief to the point where he at times and becomes a detriment to everyone around him.  Pratt's strength is his likeability and his comic abilities but Quill's comic relief seems to be the only aspect of the character the writers were interested in bringing out. 

Rocket shows a thousand times more maturity in this movie than Quill shows.

Edited April 30, 2018 by benteen

[Traveller519]

1 hour ago, benteen said:

I think this is an excellent assessment on the problems I had with Quill in this movie.  I was surprised with how they "devolved" the character.  He's funny of course but you would never have known he went through what he did in Guardians 2.  Any development he made at the end of Guardians 2 is wiped away to revert him back to his original Guardians persona of cracking jokes and not taking things seriously whatsoever.  Gamorra's pain with Thaons is obvious and you would think Peter would understand this considering his recent that issues with his own father (or even adopted father).  But his reaction to it to crack jokes and not take what's going on seriously.  He's played more for comic relief to the point where he at times and becomes a detriment to everyone around him.  Pratt's strength is his likeability and his comic abilities but Quill's comic relief seems to be the only aspect of the character the writers were interested in bringing out. 

Rocket shows a thousand times more maturity in this movie than Quill shows.

I'm pretty sure the first Guardians Scene (interacting with Thor) was, at-least partially, written by James Gunn. It had the beats of jovial, pre-conflict, Guardians. But you're right, everything else that involved him as part of the bigger action really felt a little underused. It's why I wish they'd had Thor and Quill commiserate over their own losses. It would have made Quill's final inability to restrain himself in front of Thanos more understandable.

That said, Gamora is really one of the stand-outs of the film both with Peter and with Thanos, so it's not solely a writing issue. And I think a lot of the maturity Rocket displays can be traced back to Guardians 2.

And I have to say that's a pretty minor gripe, we're talking about a film incorporating characters introduced by roughly 10 different films and directors and for the most part it felt very cohesive.

Can't wait to head back for a re-watch this week!

[Wynterwolf]

It was actually hard watching this again yesterday (at a noon IMAX showing) with a ton of people who hadn't seen it yet, especially the kids.  It was a pretty active and appreciative crowd in the beginning, with a lot of laughing, but by the end it was just silence.  Or crying.  Then when the "Thanos will return" came up, one guy started booing quietly and a bunch of people laughed quietly.  Then we all just kinda shuffled out and from the whispered conversations, a lot of people didn't know who's symbol that was on Fury's StarkTechPager.  Very surreal.  

I admit I had originally been taken in by the report that they changed the titles because this was more of a stand-alone/complete movie now, rather than a Part 1.  But yeah, it's really, really not.  And they've now made it clear that even things they show in promos don't necessarily have anything to do with what will actually end up on screen.  I get it, to a certain extent, and I'll adjust, but it will be interesting to see how this all evolves with subsequent content.  

[SuburbanHangSuite]

14 hours ago, starri said:

I loved every damned thing about the Wakanda parts.  Especially Okoye saying that she'd hoped a more open Wakanda would mean they'd host the Olympics or get a Starbucks.  Just so long as Karen agrees to leave her bland-ass potato salad at home.

BWAHAHA.  Or at the very least, will someone please loan Karen some Lawry's and paprika?

I too loved the Wakanda scenes except seeing the total decimation of the beautiful landscape---I see you Marvel with your pointed symbolism.

M'Baku!  T'Challa and he are "brothers.". Wakanda Forever!

[Dandesun]

17 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

In the ‘feast from crumbs department: 

When Vision and Wanda were explaining that they would periodically sneak off to be with each other and spend time together, the camera close in focused on Steve.  And he looked like he could totally relate and understood completely where they were coming from.  And… that reunion between Steve and Bucky did not in the slightest look like the first time they’d seen each other in 2(?) years, or even 2 months.  

 

If you're suggesting that Steve periodically returns to the rolling hills of Wakanda to visit Bucky's goat farm so they can bone... I accept this headcanon.

Surprising no one.

[MaggieG]

Favorite lines:

"I am Groot"   "I am.... Steve Rogers"

"You're embarrasing me in front of the wizards"

This exchange also cracked me up;
Quill: "Where is Gamora?!"   Stark: "I'll do you one better, who is Gamora?!"  Drax: "I'll do you one better, why is Gamora?"

LOVED the intro to the Guardians with them singing, Drax snoring in his chair and teenage Groot on his video game.

I also loved when Dr Strange called Stark a doucebag and said the Ben and Jerry's flavor they named after him, Stark Raving Walnuts, was "a bit chalky"

[Dee]

Avengers: Infinity War: How They Decided to Split Up the Characters

Quote

In the first two Avengers movies, the powered-up ensemble comprised little more than a handful of characters, and they spent most of the plot fighting at each other’s side. Over the last few years, though, the Marvel Cinematic Universe has experienced a superheroic population boom, and that presented a logistical challenge for Avengers: Infinity War screenwriters Christopher Markus and Stephen McFeely. “We didn’t want a movie full of 25 people going from room to room,” said McFeely. “We wanted threads that we could weave together and break apart.” That meant Markus and McFeely spent a lot of time brainstorming which character groupings would both service the plot and produce the sparkiest chemistry.

Edited April 30, 2018 by Dee

[Dandesun]

11 minutes ago, MaggieG said:

Favorite lines:

"I am Groot"   "I am.... Steve Rogers"

"You're embarrasing me in front of the wizards"

This exchange also cracked me up;
Quill: "Where is Gamora?!"   Stark: "I'll do you one better, who is Gamora?!"  Drax: "I'll do you one better, why is Gamora?"

LOVED the intro to the Guardians with them singing, Drax snoring in his chair and teenage Groot on his video game.

I also loved when Dr Strange called Stark a doucebag and said the Ben and Jerry's flavor they named after him, Stark Raving Walnuts, was "a bit chalky"

And Wong says they prefer 'Hulka Hulka Burning Fudge' while Bruce is all 'That's a thing now?'

I really hope Ross got dusted. I'd be fine with him not coming back afterwards, too. Rhodey, who deals with Tony on the regular, so obviously has nothing but disdain for Ross at this point. Tony has his lovable side. Ross has his douche side and then you turn him over and he shows his uber-douche side. Ugh.

There were a lot of reasons I loved Stark and Strange getting paired up. Facial hair bros aside... they are both brilliant and arrogant and I really wanted to see those two extremely similar personalities bump against each other. By the same token, Tony is the ultimate engineer and Stephen is the master of the mystical arts... two diametrically opposed classes so that just furthers the sexual tension. Plus, I love that Tony just kept calling Strange and Wong 'the wizards.' "You're embarrassing me in front of the wizards." "Aliens are trying to steal a necklace from a wizard."

Then you throw in adorable, spider-strength Peter in there as well as most of the Guardians... it just makes for a good time.

Rocket's the only Guardian still standing at the end, though. I didn't see that one coming. Also, Nebula is with Tony. THAT should be interesting. Now, Tony's the only one who has Strange's side of it. That they were in the end game and that this was the only way. I am fascinated by the concept of Tony trying to a) figure that out and b) explain how it went down to the others. On the upside, Thor has met Dr. Strange so once Tony and Nebula make it to earth they can compare notes and really start putting it all together.

Shuri, I have to believe, has got something up her sleeve. Hopefully we'll get a scene with her, Tony, Rocket and Bruce brain-storming.

[Dee]

Drax grappling with the Cloak of Levitation was amazing. "Die, Blanket of Death!"

Speaking of Guardians, EVERYTHING Mantis related cracked me up. Her making her "mean face" at Quill's behest, to inadvertently spooking poor Peter when they first meet, to gleefully enjoying the anti-gravity on Titan, to "Kick Names, Take Ass!"; Pom Klementieff was just delightful.

[Morrigan2575]

1 minute ago, Dee said:

Drax grappling with the Cloak of Levitation was amazing. "Die, Blanket of Death!"

Speaking of Guardians, EVERYTHING Mantis related cracked me up. Her making her "mean face" at Quill's behest, to inadvertently spooking poor Peter when they first meet, to gleefully enjoying the anti-gravity on Titan, to "Kick Names, Take Ass!"; Pom Klementieff was just delightful.

I have to watch this again. There are parts/jokes I know I missed or forgotten either because I was laughing at something else or there was so much going on to remember everything. 

I remember the GotG/Earthers fight but for the lofe of me I don't remember the Drax/Cloak fight. 

[starri]

Why, oh why didn’t Ben & Jerry’s release limited edition Avengers flavors?

[theredhead77]

7 hours ago, starri said:

It did make me sad that Steve lost two of his boyfriends at once. 

The movie wasn’t perfect, but it still kicked names and took ass. 

Is Steve gay or bi-sexual in canon? I Googled but Google is very unreliable in these instances.

Signed, a non comic book fan who is in it for 'the pretty' and is truly curious.

[Dee]

9 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I remember the GotG/Earthers fight but for the lofe of me I don't remember the Drax/Cloak fight. 

Drax & the Cloak duel when the remaining Guardians first encounter Tony/Strange/Peter on Titan.

[Wynterwolf]

10 minutes ago, theredhead77 said:

Is Steve gay or bi-sexual in canon?

To my knowledge, there is nothing explicit in comic canon or MCU canon.  Just a lot of dialog and actions that are easily interpreted as... not strictly heterosexual.  And as far as canon goes, you could even interpret him as a bi/pan-romantic, asexual.  

Edited April 30, 2018 by Wynterwolf

[Raja]

1 hour ago, MaggieG said:

Favorite lines:

"I am Groot"   "I am.... Steve Rogers"

 

I'm glad they didn't give that one away as they did with Peter's "oh our made up name" line.

[Shannon L.]

3 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

I admit I had originally been taken in by the report that they changed the titles because this was more of a stand-alone/complete movie now, rather than a Part 1.  But yeah, it's really, really not.

I was saying this to a friend today.  They said they decided not to make it a two part movie and decided instead to make it two separate movies, but let's face it--we just saw part one.  This will end with Avengers 4 and I have a feeling that those fans who cried at this one haven't seen anything yet (and I don't want to sound like I'm mocking anyone who cried--I took tissues with me because I expected to be a blubbering mess. I even warned my family that I would cry.  But, I didn't.  I expect I will the next time, though).  

59 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

And Wong says they prefer 'Hulka Hulka Burning Fudge' while Bruce is all 'That's a thing now?'

Bwah!  I didn't hear that line!

I'm seeing this again tomorrow with a friend who hasn't seen it yet.  Hopefully, this time I'll catch a few things that I didn't the first time through.

[Dee]

24 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

To my knowledge, there is nothing explicit in comic canon or MCU canon.  Just a lot of dialog and actions that are easily interpreted as... not strictly heterosexual.  And as far as canon goes, you could even interpret him as a bi/pan-romantic, asexual.  

It doesn't help that MCU!Steve is essentially the community bicycle when it comes to potential romantic pairings (both canon and sub-textual).

Between Peggy, Sam, Natasha, Bucky, Sharon, Tony, Wanda, T'Challa, Thor and Coulson, the guy has amassed a virtual harem.

[Dandesun]

31 minutes ago, theredhead77 said:

Is Steve gay or bi-sexual in canon? I Googled but Google is very unreliable in these instances.

Signed, a non comic book fan who is in it for 'the pretty' and is truly curious.

Not in canon, no. Or rather... not explicitly stated, no. Although the framing of a lot of Cap's scenes, particularly in his solo films, reads that he could be. Samuel L Jackson popped in on a Chris Evans question at a D23 event and commented that Evans' Cap was the first LGBT-Avenger.

And behind the scenes of Civil War, Sam and Bucky were referred to on-set as 'Cap's two girlfriends.'

And Steve and Bucky are totes in love. 

But it not CANON. Or whatever.

2 minutes ago, Dee said:

It doesn't help that MCU!Steve is essentially the community bicycle when it comes to potential romantic pairings (both canon and sub-textual).

Between Peggy, Sam, Natasha, Bucky, Sharon, Tony, Wanda, T'Challa, Thor and Coulson, the guy has amassed a virtual harem.

This is very very true. Steve Rogers is the face that launched a thousand 'ships.

[VCRTracking]

And the "Award for worst way to find out your dad really loves you" goes to.......Gamora!

Edited May 1, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Wynterwolf]

4 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

And Steve and Bucky are totes in love. 

But it not CANON. Or whatever.

TPTB have just really taken the "show don't tell" tenent of storytelling too much to heart.  

[Raja]

18 minutes ago, Shannon L. said:

I was saying this to a friend today.  They said they decided not to make it a two part movie and decided instead to make it two separate movies, but let's face it--we just saw part one.  This will end with Avengers 4 and I have a feeling that those fans who cried at this one haven't seen anything yet (and I don't want to sound like I'm mocking anyone who cried--I took tissues with me because I expected to be a blubbering mess. I even warned my family that I would cry.  But, I didn't.  I expect I will the next time, though).  

Bwah!  I didn't hear that line!

I'm seeing this again tomorrow with a friend who hasn't seen it yet.  Hopefully, this time I'll catch a few things that I didn't the first time through.

Not only that, this wasn't the first time to put out fake images in their trailers and advertising. Now that the movie has been released to record box office I wouldn't be surprised if they did come back and officially name Avengers 4 as Infinity War II

[VCRTracking]

Okay, I definitely want the Reality Stone. That would be the most fun to have.

[Dandesun]

3 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

Okay, I definitely want the Reality Stone. That would be the most fun to have.

Everything is bubbles!!!

[SnoGirl]

Weren’t there production pictures of Evans, RDJ, Mark and Rudd in New York? Is it too soon to start predicting what’s going to happen in next movie, because its been days since I’ve seen it, my heart is still broken and I need some hope. 

I rewatched Spiderman Homecoming to feel better but that was a mistake too. Peter and Tony. Ugh. It still stings...

[Traveller519]

58 minutes ago, Raja said:

I'm glad they didn't give that one away as they did with Peter's "oh our made up name" line.

Not to mention

"You speak Groot?"

"Yes, they teach it on Asgard" - Hemsworth's delivery of that line (or what it approximates) is amazing, just enough of the cocky twinge he's been displaying.

[Wynterwolf]

2 minutes ago, SnoGirl said:

Weren’t there production pictures of Evans, RDJ, Mark and Rudd in New York? Is it too soon to start predicting what’s going to happen in next movie, because its been days since I’ve seen it, my heart is still broken and I need some hope. 

They also had Tony's BARF machine.  

[starri]

55 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

And behind the scenes of Civil War, Sam and Bucky were referred to on-set as 'Cap's two girlfriends.'

The Honest Trailer for Civil War pointed out that Cap spends the entire movie pining after Bucky, while telling him he's "ignoring two perfectly good boyfriends [Sam and Tony] who are right there in front of his face."

[anna0852]

24 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

They also had Tony's BARF machine.  

 Is that what that thing is called? Cuz I have a scene bouncing around in my head to open the next movie that involves it. I know it'll never happen but I can't make it go away.

[Wynterwolf]

22 minutes ago, starri said:

The Honest Trailer for Civil War pointed out that Cap spends the entire movie pining after Bucky, while telling him he's "ignoring two perfectly good boyfriends [Sam and Tony] who are right there in front of his face."

See... I can't blame him for that.  As much as I love Sam and Tony, Bucky has my heart, so I get Steve on a gut level here.  

 

Also, the gloriousness of the Infinity War Beards:

[xaxat]

I assume that all of the civilians will be resurrected for A4 because a universe wide version of The Leftovers would be super depressing. 

So I think all of the super heroes will be back too. (But that doesn't mean they won't be killed off later.)

So the final battle featured people with super strength, super suits, magical abilities. . . and the warriors of Wakanda. Whose super power is simply being totally badass.

[Dandesun]

43 minutes ago, starri said:

The Honest Trailer for Civil War pointed out that Cap spends the entire movie pining after Bucky, while telling him he's "ignoring two perfectly good boyfriends [Sam and Tony] who are right there in front of his face."

 

16 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

See... I can't blame him for that.  As much as I love Sam and Tony, Bucky has my heart, so I get Steve on a gut level here.  

 

Also, the gloriousness of the Infinity War Beards:

Tony and Pepper had JUST broken up. It would be so wildly uncool of Steve to hit on Tony that soon after the end of an important relationship.

Almost as uncool as kissing the niece of his first female love interest.

As for Sam... well, their meet-cute on the Mall in DC did have Steve giving a few 'I am DTF' glances in Sam's direction but the second Bucky's mask came off all bets were off. 

Steve was all 'Hey la, my boyfriend's back!' (Not that he would get the reference.)

Steve may have gotten four kisses from four different ladies during his solo journeys but he's been eye-fucking the dudes from jump. Whether it's 'don't leave me behind as you go off to war' eye-fucking, 'I've been out of the ice for two weeks and you're already on my last nerve' eye-fucking, 'someone is speaking soldier trauma at me and I am here for it' eye-fucking or 'the love of my life is fubar and I am ready to go down with this ship' eye-fucking.

 

As for facial hair, of course Steve's sexy lumberjack beard grabs the #1 spot. As if there were any doubt.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

6 minutes ago, xaxat said:

So the final battle featured people with super strength, super suits, magical abilities. . . and the warriors of Wakanda. Whose super power is simply being totally badass.

"This will be the end of Wakanda."

"Then it will be the most noble, glorious ending in history."

[Wynterwolf]

9 minutes ago, xaxat said:

and the warriors of Wakanda. Whose super power is simply being totally badass.

And having crazy high tech power, weaponry and defense capabilities.  

[starri]

3 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

"Then it will be the most noble, glorious ending in history."

I don't care what you heard, I absolutely did NOT have a tear in my eye when Okoye said that.

[Dee]

35 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

See... I can't blame him for that.  As much as I love Sam and Tony, Bucky has my heart, so I get Steve on a gut level here. 

I can. At least where Sam is concerned.

Tony & Steve never were, and could never be, BFF's (let alone lovers).

In fact, out of all the OG Avengers, Steve is the OG Avenger most diametrically opposed to Tony in pretty much every way.

It's telling that the OG Avenger Tony gravitates to quickest is Bruce, who besides the omnipresent presence of the Hulk, closely favors Rhodey (Tony's husband).

 

Sam on the other hand is as every bit as crucial to Steve's emotional arc as Bucky is.

Unfortunately, due to virulent antiblackness, from both the MCU writers and the MCU fandom, Sam has been relegated to Steve's 'Rochester.'

[xaxat]

10 minutes ago, Dee said:

Sam on the other hand is as every bit as crucial to Steve's emotional arc as Bucky is.

I think it's important that Bucky and Sam are the two people he's developed relationships with outside of the super hero world. 

[anna0852]

10 minutes ago, Dee said:

 

In fact, out of all the OG Avengers, Steve is the OG Avenger most diametrically opposed to Tony in pretty much every way.

It's telling that the OG Avenger Tony gravitates to quickest is Bruce, who besides the omnipresent presence of the Hulk, closely favors Rhodey (Tony's husband).

 

Sam on the other hand is as every bit as crucial to Steve's emotional arc as Bucky is.

 

I absolutely agree. Sam and Bucky both provide crucial elements of stability. Bucky is the very last person whom Steve can trust just simply know and like him as Steve Rogers, The Kid From Brooklyn. There is no other person on the earth at this point who knows anything of Steve's history or childhood or anything that came before Captain America. And must be a horribly disorienting and disjointed feeling to know that people who know your history no longer exist. And Sam recognizes and respects the soldier, the one who's been in the firefight And who knows the drill. And who recognizes the mental toll that comes with. I'm really hoping that A4 picks up in the immediate aftermath of the dusting, because I don't want to think about Caps mental state having been in the world For several months or even a couple of years without those two stabilizing influences. I think Steve has a raging case of PTSD, probably one that rivals Tony's.

[Wynterwolf]

6 minutes ago, anna0852 said:

I think Steve has a raging case of PTSD, probably one that rivals Tony's.

Steve's "Oh, God" and just the look on his face... **dies again**.  He does still have Nat, though and I think she's on par with Sam for emotional support for him.  

Edited April 30, 2018 by Wynterwolf

[Dee]

15 minutes ago, xaxat said:

I think it's important that Bucky and Sam are the two people he's developed relationships with outside of the super hero world. 

I'd throw post-Avengers Nat in there too. Those three, along with Peggy, comprise the core of Steve's inner circle.

The next level for Steve consists of 'allies and proteges' ala Wanda, Sharon, T'Challa & Nick; all whom are very important to Steve, but who still remain slightly distant from him.

And then there's the final level for Steve, which is his work friends ala Tony, Bruce, Clint, Thor, Rhodey, Maria, Vision, etc. People he fights alongside and implicitly trusts to have his back in battle, but not people who he would actively choose to lean on and/or confide in.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

40 minutes ago, starri said:

I don't care what you heard, I absolutely did NOT have a tear in my eye when Okoye said that.

And I completely did not get goosebumps just typing it.

32 minutes ago, Dee said:

Sam on the other hand is as every bit as crucial to Steve's emotional arc as Bucky is.

Unfortunately, due to virulent antiblackness, from both the MCU writers and the MCU fandom, Sam has been relegated to Steve's 'Rochester.'

So...if you ship Stucky instead of Stam you're cool with the gay thing but racist? I have no dog in the fight since I don't ship either one, but wow.

Fact is, most if not all of our heroes are much too screwed up for (functional) relationships. Sam and I guess Clint are the outliers in just being stable, since between PTSD, intermittent death wishes, and God knows what else they need therapy, not dates.

[Wynterwolf]

5 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Fact is, most if not all of our heroes are much too screwed up for (functional) relationships.

Heh, absolutely true.  And yet Tony still thinks it's a good idea to marry Pepper and have a kid!  LOL.  

[Dandesun]

2 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

So...if you ship Stucky instead of Stam you're cool with the gay thing but racist? I have no dog in the fight since I don't ship either one, but wow.

Fact is, most if not all of our heroes are much too screwed up for (functional) relationships. Sam and I guess Clint are the outliers in just being stable, since between PTSD, intermittent death wishes, and God knows what else they need therapy, not dates.

Sam is the first true friend that Steve makes in the modern day. They bond over their soldier experiences and losing their 'best friends' in battle. As far as being racist for not pairing Sam up with Steve... that's not an argument I'm going to get into. I've seen Sam paired up with Steve, in a triad with Steve and Bucky, paired with Nat, Sharon and sometimes Maria. Paired with the fabulous Claire from the Netflix series. Paired with T'Challa because Sam is pretty much acknowledged as The Best and therefore deserving of the hottest of sugar daddies. And there is much discussion of Riley, his wingman bestie who was shot down while 'it was like I was up there just to watch' and what their relationship actually was.

But given the 'shared life experience' Steve talked about in Winter Soldier that was conveniently right before his bestie showed up again and surprise! also is a super soldier who gets frozen a lot and is super bad-ass and super traumatized it's not exactly a stretch to get why Steve/Bucky became a huge thing. In the MCU, Nat and Sam are total bad-ass humans but they're aren't enhanced except by equipment so... fandom goes places as to what super-soldier fucking might do to a regular human body. That's fandom for you.

Back to the movie... can Steve and Thor just hug the shit out of each other in the next movie because they haven't seen each other since Ultron and they've both been through all sorts of shit. Especially Thor... and they struck me as becoming really good friends there. (Although how much did I love Bruce's excitement when Thor made his entrance with Stormbreaker? A lot. I loved it a lot. I really liked how their dynamic developed in Ragnarok. Although I am sorry to see Tony's Duran Duran shirt seems to have disappeared.)

[Dee]

1 hour ago, anna0852 said:

I absolutely agree. Sam and Bucky both provide crucial elements of stability. Bucky is the very last person whom Steve can trust just simply know and like him as Steve Rogers, The Kid From Brooklyn. There is no other person on the earth at this point who knows anything of Steve's history or childhood or anything that came before Captain America. And must be a horribly disorienting and disjointed feeling to know that people who know your history no longer exist. And Sam recognizes and respects the soldier, the one who's been in the firefight And who knows the drill. And who recognizes the mental toll that comes with. I'm really hoping that A4 picks up in the immediate aftermath of the dusting, because I don't want to think about Caps mental state having been in the world For several months or even a couple of years without those two stabilizing influences. I think Steve has a raging case of PTSD, probably one that rivals Tony's.

The thing is Sam adores Steve, the individual, every bit as much as Bucky does.

Also, just like Bucky, Sam clearly delineates between Steve & Cap. And they, like nearly everyone in Steve's orbit, follow(s) Steve into war not because of Cap, but because of Steve, himself.

The thing is though, at their core, Sam & Bucky are two different people. While Sam is often considered The Reasonable One, due to his pragmatic streak and aloof demeanor, he's much closer to Steve, the individual, in personality and temperament than Bucky ever could hope to be. 

If anyone is The Reasonable One of Steve's inner circle, it's Natasha.

31 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

So...if you ship Stucky instead of Stam you're cool with the gay thing but racist? I have no dog in the fight since I don't ship either one, but wow.

That's not at all what I said, but if that's what you take from it....

Edited April 30, 2018 by Dee

[Raja]

1 hour ago, Wynterwolf said:

And having crazy high tech power, weaponry and defense capabilities.  

Yet the Wakandan army gave away the advantage of their high tech phalanx when they made the stupidest charge in history since the Light Brigade when they wanted the enemy to attack their strong point instead of flanking them. I'm sorry my king, maybe you should have allowed the Captain to command that battle.

[Dee]

11 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

 it's not exactly a stretch to get why Steve/Bucky became a huge thing.

But not really though, because the aforementioned super soldier also happens to be a white male, and the immense discrepancy between white characters & characters of color, in virtually every fandom is overwhelming. If Sam was white there would be incessant debates/fights/arguments over who was the better match for Steve, ala Angel/Buffy/Spike or Dawson/Joey/Pacey or Brenda/Dylan/Kelly, etc.

It's similar to how T'Challa and friends can bank billions of dollars at the box office and have relatively little in the way of non-white insert character fandom interaction.

Edited April 30, 2018 by Dee