S02.E08: Number One

[Guest]

1 hour ago, theatremouse said:

To me, he was 50% desperate for a fix, and 50% desperate to get caught.

I loathed the scene at the end with Randall, and I blame the writers, not the character. Stop with the "I have to tell you something-" "I already know." No. This is such trite bullshit. If someone says they need to say something, let them say they thing and then if it turns out to be the thing you already knew and assumed they were about to say, say "I know" then, not before they say it. I get that there's no drama in that, and that is why this construct is so tired. Because it's a TV thing to perfectly prevent someone saying something they've been struggling to say by dropping some other crisis on them that they didn't know about that then serves as a hurdle for them saying what they were about to. Lazy lazy lazy writing. Unearned and annoying.

I thought Kevin had visions of "Wynona Ryder caught shoplifting" headlines when he backed out of that line, and I was glad because that would be hard to come back from.

I agree about the tired device.  Plus if Randall thought they were referring to the same thing, why spell it out?  That was purely awkward exposition for the audience's benefit. 

And I don't want to minimize the seriousness of miscarriage but I wanted Kevin to recognize his need is still urgent and not exactly something they can't deal with at the same time as Kate's loss.  I know, the actor said he's trying to be strong for his siblings, but there's nothing they can do for Kate besides be supportive and sympathetic and he can do that while also asking for help for himself.  If anything, I would think a shared tragic event would make you want to unburden more, since you're already together and in support mode.  

[HeyThere83]

3 hours ago, DesertCyclist said:

Sigh...  I enjoyed this episode, and it definitely had its moments, but I'm on the fence about Justin Hartley.  I typically restrict my negative criticism to larger creative choices and not comment on actors, but with Hartley's portrayal I never really buy into Kevin being a real person.  It always feels like someone "acting" to me when Kevin's on screen, and I struggle with suspension of disbelief.  I don't know if it's a conscious choice made by Hartley or if he isn't a strong dramatic actor.  At times, I think it actually works because Kevin himself isn't all that authentic, but last night the only time I really felt there was honest depth was during Kevin's breakdown near the end.  I'm sorry if my opinions offend Kevin or Hartley fans; I really do want to like Hartley.

Well for as long as I have followed him, he has always been, well.....obsessed with needing people to think he is like the greatest actor to walk this planet. So yes, to me anytime there is anything that requires drama I can practically see him envisioning himself on a grand stage accepting an acting award.

[Katy M]

3 hours ago, debraran said:

but why would Kevin be breaking the news to Randall?

Because Randall would figure that Kate wouldn't want to inform every member of the family separately and Kevin would let everyone else know.  Kate's the one who told Randall about the Manny breakdown.  In fact, I imagine that if Kevin had ever answered the phone, Kate would have let him tell everyone else.  It's not something you want to repeat a bunch of times.

[General Days]

On 11/14/2017 at 10:13 PM, SnoGirl said:

Kevin looked just awful the entire episode. That football field scene just killed me. Who doesnt have a moment like thay where you look back on and are desparate to change it. Ugh, my heart broke for Kevin. I havent always liked him but the writing for him this season is definitely pulling at my heartstrings.

The necklace. I really hope he gets it back. I really hope the Doctor sends it to Kate.

Speaking of Kate, talk about the worst timing ever. Kevin is reaching out to Randall. RANDALL. I thought for sure he was going to go to Kate. Please show, dont have Kevin bury this too. Have him speak up for himself. I dont know how his family is looking at his face and not seeing how awful and sweaty he looks.

I can see Kevin reaching out to Randall, because he was there for Randall's last breakdown. He lived with Randall and their family lately. I think their bond has strengthened. Plus, I imagine Kevin sees himself more as Kate's protector. It might be easier to not be perfect in Randall's eyes than in hers. 

 

On 11/14/2017 at 10:27 PM, SnoGirl said:

As the oldest sibling in my family, I totally get the self-loathing Kevin is going through. Its hard being the oldest and adding in a drug addiction, I couldnt even imagine.

 

The Pearson kids all have their own roles within the family, but I'm not sure how much of a part birth order is with multiples (or de facto multiples). I'm thinking specifically of two sets of twins I know. In both cases (one set is identical and one set is fraternal) the younger twin acts more like the way you'd expect a first born to act in a family of singletons.

 

23 hours ago, QTBlueMoon said:

I have a question about teen Kevin. He was so disrespectful to his dad, didn't seem to be too concerned over Jack's anger, and was really just being a real jerk. My wife and I don't agree on his reaction to Jack kneeling in the kitchen praying the Serenity Prayer. She thinks that he was finally seeing him as a good man and was starting to look up to him, but I still saw the same disrespect that he was showing earlier. Thoughts?

 

From what we can tell so far, Jack's drinking wasn't obvious to the kids -- at least until Jack and Rebecca split. They might only even know about it because they were told, rather than that they witnessed it. I could be wrong about that -- but that's how I've taken it, so far. I just mention that as the set up for what I saw going on with Kevin in this episode.

I feel like Kevin is both mad at his father for being an alcoholic (and even more so, for not being perfect after all), and is also mad that Jack needs help (that is AA) to stay sober. I think he's embarrassed by the whole thing. If the kids didn't know anything about the drinking until they were teens and it split up their family, then Kevin is probably still dealing with the feeling of being blindsided. He didn't spend years hoping and praying dad would get sober. To him, all of this just came out of the blue and really shook up his understanding of his parents and family in general. 

My opinion is closer to yours than to your wife's. I didn't see respect on Kevin's face when Jack was praying the Serenity Prayer. I saw contempt, but I think that contempt is coming out of the shattered illusions of youth (with a healthy side of teenaged snottiness). 

[Pallas]

Quote

Not to mention he should have his own drug dealer. Rich, popular Hollywood actor has to score smack with his legal prescription for painkillers? I don't think so. Robert Downey Jr., Lindsay Lohan, <insert any other name of famous drug addicted actor>, etc. did not get their stuff from their primary care physicians.

Kevin clearly found a Vicodin source -- prescribed or not -- back home in LA, after the gala. But then he returned to NYC to propose to Sophie, made a hash of that, and seems to have spent the next couple weeks in a hotel room in NYC. That's where he finally ran out of what I'm guessing was his LA stash, and didn't know how to/didn't have time to replenish it before catching a flight to Pittsburgh the next morning. He's not on his home turf, and pretty new at this. 

[biakbiak]

Folks:

Let's return to the topic at hand which is the episode and not Kate and Chrissy's weight since she was not even in this episode.

[Pallas]

9 minutes ago, General Days said:

I feel like Kevin is both mad at his father for being an alcoholic (and even more so, for not being perfect after all), and is also mad that Jack needs help (that is AA) to stay sober. I think he's embarrassed by the whole thing. If the kids didn't know anything about the drinking until they were teens and it split up their family, then Kevin is probably still dealing with the feeling of being blindsided. He didn't spend years hoping and praying dad would get sober. To him, all of this just came out of the blue and really shook up his understanding of his parents and family in general. 

My opinion is closer to yours than to your wife's. I didn't see respect on Kevin's face when Jack was praying the Serenity Prayer. I saw contempt, but I think that contempt is coming out of the shattered illusions of youth (with a healthy side of teenaged snottiness). 

I agree completely. Kevin's taunt to Jack about being embarrassed speaks to how truculent (and mortified) Kevin looked in the diner on the morning Jack and Rebecca told the kids that they were separating. Kevin's sneer as he took in just how much his father must have blown it, after Jack had driven off the night before to make things right with Rebecca. Blown it so spectacularly that his mother had cancelled her tour so that she could come home and send his father packing. Kevin's distress announced itself again that night in the movie theater, with his flippant joke about Randall and Rebecca.

The night after the Pitt coach left, I saw teen-aged Kevin contemptuous of Mr. "We Pearson Men"'s being humble and scared on the phone with his sponsor -- bent over the kitchen counter and whispering, like the team's nice-guy equipment manager, trying to get a date -- and then going down on his knees. It wasn't only contempt that Logan Shroyer conveyed; I saw confusion, pity, and something else. Something Kevin only began to understand about himself, and Jack, back home on homecoming night, as he realized that he was more than worthless: he was helpless, too.

[himela]

I really don't care about Kev...(sorry I fell asleep only thinking about him - so boring).

I find it a bad choice of the show to drag the reason Jack died two whole seasons. I mean, I was curious to find out why he died 5 episodes ago but now I am like, who cares why and how he died after all. Can't care less.

[voiceover]

On 11/16/2017 at 5:08 PM, Katy M said:

 

I didn't think he actually said that Joe Montana went to Pitt.  I think he said something about Kevin following in the footsteps of great players from PA.  Joe Montana is originally from PA.

You’re right.

I watched it again on the app, and the coach said, “...Pennsylvania-based quarterbacks...”. Accurate, because Montana IS from PA; there is a whole mystique about QBs & that state.

So the coach didn’t make a mistake. I think most of us (I include me) were thrown off by the way Logan said the line.  Kevin meant that, “even” Pennsylvania-based quarterback Joe Montana, didn’t go to Penn.  But it sounded (even in my rewatch) as though he was correcting the coach about Montana’s alma mater.

I also discovered that Charlotte did not say “noodles and cheese”, and that Kevin did not apologize when he came back (though I’m still on the side of the “Give him back his necklace” crowd) — he did, however, say his leaving had nothing to do with her.

Now I’m putting the tweezers down & stepping away from the boards.

[himela]

I think the best thing Kate and Toby can do is consider adoption. Let's be realistic, there is no way Kate can give birth to a healthy baby given both her age and her weight. It's dangerous to continue trying so I think it's better to apply for adoption and not waste any more time.

[BetyBee]

This must have been a pretty good episode, because I still have Lonesome Loser playing in my head and can't stop thinking about Kevin, once the king of his high school, walking through the halls and remembering when his life had promise.  A somewhat famous guy went to my high school and though he's now in the Hall of Fame there, he's had his addiction issues and he's pretty much thought of as a joke.  Life can smack anyone upside the head and usually does eventually.  I don't usually think about how hard life is for A list high schoolers, but it's an interesting topic.  I thought the weakest part of the episode was the doctor.  It seemed at first that she existed as a true hero vs. his artificial hero status.  But then, instead of helping him (as he once helped her in high school), she used him to fulfill an old fantasy.  And didn't she mention not yet losing baby weight?  So she has a family and she pulled such a cheap trick?  I think that was sloppy writing.  She noticed how much he was drinking and she noticed how he was sweating.  She can't be oblivious to how often alcohol and drugs are a part of stardom.  She made no sense to me.  

[Guest]

2 hours ago, BetyBee said:

And didn't she mention not yet losing baby weight? 

I didn't listen or watch closely but I thought that line was meant to tell us she was a little chubby in high school, as in she hadn't lost her own baby chubbiness?  Which I thought was an awkward way to put it. 

[ShadowFacts]

2 hours ago, BetyBee said:

She can't be oblivious to how often alcohol and drugs are a part of stardom.  She made no sense to me.  

I think she was turning a blind eye to his impairment, because she was intent on playing out her fantasy.  Which made no sense to me, either, because as to thinking they'd have a bedspread picnic and warm afterglow, when did an alcohol-fueled one night stand ever turn out like that? 

[Clanstarling]

9 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I think she was turning a blind eye to his impairment, because she was intent on playing out her fantasy.  Which made no sense to me, either, because as to thinking they'd have a bedspread picnic and warm afterglow, when did an alcohol-fueled one night stand ever turn out like that? 

She wasn't thinking. She was still deeply inside in her fantasy. Logical thought hasn't even come close to rearing its sobering head.

[ShadowFacts]

1 minute ago, Clanstarling said:

She wasn't thinking. She was still deeply inside in her fantasy. Logical thought hasn't even come close to rearing its sobering head.

True.  But reality slapped her in the face right quick when he headed out the door.  Poor dear. 

[Lady Calypso]

So, another note about the whole Charlotte/Kevin situation. It definitely feels ridiculous that Charlotte was such a bitch toward Kevin at the end, though. He's in tears over his necklace, and she sees that he's in pain as he tells her that the necklace is the only thing of his dead dad's. And her response is to....say she doesn't have his necklace and go back to bed? That's just cold. She couldn't even muster up sympathy to look, even with the way he left. Again, if she knew that he was an addict, or at least that he stole one of her prescription pages, then I'd understand her not inviting him in. Maybe if she had thought that he was using it as an excuse to use her for drugs, then it would be understandable. But the show did nothing to make me feel sorry for her, and the more I sit on the episode, the more I realize this. 

They simply made Charlotte look worse than Kevin, and Kevin was the one stealing from Charlotte and most likely using her for drugs. 

10 hours ago, General Days said:

I feel like Kevin is both mad at his father for being an alcoholic (and even more so, for not being perfect after all), and is also mad that Jack needs help (that is AA) to stay sober. I think he's embarrassed by the whole thing. If the kids didn't know anything about the drinking until they were teens and it split up their family, then Kevin is probably still dealing with the feeling of being blindsided. He didn't spend years hoping and praying dad would get sober. To him, all of this just came out of the blue and really shook up his understanding of his parents and family in general. 

I think this is definitely true. I think, for the kids, Jack being an alcoholic on top of their parents almost splitting up was a shock for them. I think for someone like Kevin, he thought everything was fine in his family until it wasn't. Even though it's been six months since Jack started AA, it's a whole lot to deal with for a teenager, especially one who feels left out of the family compared to his siblings. His father may go to his games and they may have built model planes together (I wish we could see more of that in flashbacks), but Kevin and Jack aren't that close. He is treated differently, despite being loved by his parents. 

I do think that there were many emotions coming from Kevin when he saw his dad doing the Serenity Prayer. Maybe some contempt, but he was also witnessing a vulnerable moment with his dad that he's never seen. It's clear that Jack does this when he thinks everyone has gone to bed. I mean, it was just past midnight when Kevin caught him talking to his sponsor. I think it's not just one emotion Kevin was feeling, but I do think it was a turning point. Despite the way Kevin acted the next day to Jack, I think his attitude was starting to change. Though, as we know, it's not long before Jack dies so it's likely too late. 

And for his attitude toward Jack, I saw that as Kevin pushing down his emotions to protect himself. Much like Jack has done to seem like the perfect dad, husband, and overall person, Kevin has been shown to do the same things. They have their weaknesses and flaws deep down, but they don't like showing it to other people. Unlike Randall, Kate, and Rebecca, who aren't afraid to show their vulnerabilities, Kevin and Jack are different. I think that's why their scene in the hospital got to me. It's one of the few times that Kevin and Jack are both incredibly vulnerable and honest with each other. It's the first time that we've seen Teen Kevin be completely vulnerable. 

[debraran]

4 hours ago, BetyBee said:

This must have been a pretty good episode, because I still have Lonesome Loser playing in my head and can't stop thinking about Kevin, once the king of his high school, walking through the halls and remembering when his life had promise.  A somewhat famous guy went to my high school and though he's now in the Hall of Fame there, he's had his addiction issues and he's pretty much thought of as a joke.  Life can smack anyone upside the head and usually does eventually.  I don't usually think about how hard life is for A list high schoolers, but it's an interesting topic.  I thought the weakest part of the episode was the doctor.  It seemed at first that she existed as a true hero vs. his artificial hero status.  But then, instead of helping him (as he once helped her in high school), she used him to fulfill an old fantasy.  And didn't she mention not yet losing baby weight?  So she has a family and she pulled such a cheap trick?  I think that was sloppy writing.  She noticed how much he was drinking and she noticed how he was sweating.  She can't be oblivious to how often alcohol and drugs are a part of stardom.  She made no sense to me.  

That was the weakest link in the show, the doc and almost as painful as watching him.  That said though, people ignored and helped so many stars like Elvis and Michael, the list is so long and didn't care how they acted. Do you think the woman with Elvis when he died didn't see how bad he was? Everyone has a reason to ignore but when a doctor does it, it is on a different level of responsibility.  And her "you came back and pointed at me" made me wince, have some self respect. I never understood the insane adoration for someone that you would put yourself lower than they are. Respecting them as an adult is one thing, going crazy is another.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

They simply made Charlotte look worse than Kevin,

Not to me.  I was cheering her on for not letting him in.  What Kevin did was horrible.  Sneaking out like that like she's coyote ugly or going to beg him to stop or something.  Or he's too ashamed to acknowledge he'd slept with her.  

And she's not his doctor.  I don't think she did anything wrong.  We never saw him past the point of ability to consent.  Sweat level isn't really a sign of extreme impairment.  He didn't even act that impaired to me, he just looked like shit thanks to the heavy makeup with the dark circles and heavy sweat.  

[CelticBlackCat]

1 hour ago, debraran said:

That was the weakest link in the show, the doc and almost as painful as watching him.  That said though, people ignored and helped so many stars like Elvis and Michael, the list is so long and didn't care how they acted. Do you think the woman with Elvis when he died didn't see how bad he was? Everyone has a reason to ignore but when a doctor does it, it is on a different level of responsibility.  And her "you came back and pointed at me" made me wince, have some self respect. I never understood the insane adoration for someone that you would put yourself lower than they are. Respecting them as an adult is one thing, going crazy is another.

Especially a high school student who plays football.  Perhaps the fan worship of Kevin at the HS awards ceremony is part of why I don't feel all that about this episode.  That, and the unrealistic way everyone ignores Kevin's heavy drinking and sweaty, strung out appearance.

[JudyObscure]

14 hours ago, General Days said:

The Pearson kids all have their own roles within the family, but I'm not sure how much of a part birth order is with multiples (or de facto multiples).

I agree and it seems odd to me when they talk about Kevin being the oldest as though that few minutes made a difference.  When psychologists talk about birth order they're referring to the differences that come from an oldest being an only child for some time, then having been put in charge of the younger ones, hence the leadership qualities and greater confidence -- or what we youngest call bossiness. The theory expects the youngest to be more of a follower, possibly an underachiever or favored by the rest of the family, and the middle child somewhat lost in between, never having received enough attention before the next child was born. 

All this takes time to develop, at least nine months.  In the case of multiples, I wouldn't expect the sibling placement theory to work at all. 

Charlotte didn't know this was a one night stand until Kevin left, so I can't blame her for keeping the fantasy alive while she was in the kitchen cooking, but after he ducked out it was time for a reality check.  Even in high school I wouldn't have been mooning over a guy who clearly wasn't into my type.  The way Kevin had rejected her advance at the reunion would have had me going home with my face flaming, why in the world was she waiting around for a crooked finger?  All of those clues that he wasn't that into her should have come rushing back the next morning and by the time he was knocking at her door she should have pulled up her big girl panties, let him in to get his father's necklace, and coldly sent him on his way.

On the other hand, I don't blame her for not diagnosing Kevin as a pain pill addict.  His symptoms and those of a man who drank way too much at a reunion look about the same to me.  

[debraran]

15 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

I agree and it seems odd to me when they talk about Kevin being the oldest as though that few minutes made a difference.  When psychologists talk about birth order they're referring to the differences that come from an oldest being an only child for some time, then having been put in charge of the younger ones, hence the leadership qualities and greater confidence -- or what we youngest call bossiness. The theory expects the youngest to be more of a follower, possibly an underachiever or favored by the rest of the family, and the middle child somewhat lost in between, never having received enough attention before the next child was born. 

 

I had fraternal twins and they are like most fraternal twins, 2 different people that were born at the same time. Subtle kidding about who was first (in my case the smaller came first instead of the larger) is done occasionally but birth order for twins is not relevant, so I agree with you.

I've seen a lot of families ignore things over the years but I still feel 20 years, is a long time to have made little progress in working through your dad's death. At least Rebecca remarried (to her kids chagrin) and moved on but they seem stuck, Randall the least, but Kevin and Kate, in so many ways. Kevin might have hid some of his angst in his work and relationships (or lack of them) but seeing Kate go from a pretty healthy teen to how they portray Kate in her 20's, that much pain and anger and self-hatred should have been addressed. Maybe it was and she pushed people away but Kevin knew she sat in the car eating junk food, maybe that was just on the same day that he died, but she had bad habits and couldn't deal with the trauma.  I suppose as adults, sometimes we can only watch others and not help but I hope they tried.

The "I hid my alcoholism" usually doesn't happen very well unless you are a working alcoholic and even then it smells. My friend said to me once, my husband thinks he is hiding it, but I see the cans he threw away, I see him take out the trash on occasion without asking, being late home , no mention of a beer but I smell it. The mouthwash smell, the shakiness when we don't have drinks or we are on vacation. I'm not saying it can't be done, but you usually aren't that much in the dark.

Edited November 18, 2017 by debraran

[Lady Calypso]

4 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Charlotte didn't know this was a one night stand until Kevin left, so I can't blame her for keeping the fantasy alive while she was in the kitchen cooking, but after he ducked out it was time for a reality check.  Even in high school I wouldn't have been mooning over a guy who clearly wasn't into my type.  The way Kevin had rejected her advance at the reunion would have had me going home with my face flaming, why in the world was she waiting around for a crooked finger?  All of those clues that he wasn't that into her should have come rushing back the next morning and by the time he was knocking at her door she should have pulled up her big girl panties, let him in to get his father's necklace, and coldly sent him on his way.

On the other hand, I don't blame her for not diagnosing Kevin as a pain pill addict.  His symptoms and those of a man who drank way too much at a reunion look about the same to me.  

True. I think most of her hurt was not just at Kevin, but also herself for letting her get so wrapped up in her own little fantasy that she couldn't see that Kevin was not interested in pursuing a relationship with her at all. Not to mention she had just told Kevin how nice he had been, even though he hadn't known her name, only to have him bolting like a shamed one night stand not even ten minutes later. I think her hurt at what happened and how she couldn't have seen him bolting caused the vicious reaction. Which is fair; Kevin was not nice to her in any way. His addiction clouded his ability to be charming or just plain courteous, and I'll always wonder why Charlotte was so delusional that she couldn't see how rude he was to her the entire time. 

The one thing I don't really put the blame on her for is not noticing him being a pill addict. He was drinking a lot at the reunion, which was the thing that should have tipped her off that he wasn't in his right frame of mind, but I can't imagine how she'd jump to him being a drug addict. I'm only disappointed in her not noticing something was wrong, not necessarily that his problem was drugs. I know she's a doctor, but every doctor has their own specialty. Hers is plastic surgery, specifically for burn victims. Although I would think that burn victims could abuse their drugs too, not every doctor will have that readied knowledge. Now, I don't know where these burn victims go for their follow up. I'm not sure if they follow up with their plastic surgeons or they go see some other type of doctor. If the latter is the case, then I don't think Charlotte would be looking specifically for drug addicts, although they did choose this profession for a reason. I mean, a subtle connection with Kevin is burn victims associated with fire, which is how Jack is said to have probably died from (directly or indirectly). And, of course, burn victims will be on medication, so since it's clear that Charlotte is in charge of prescribing these medications, it allowed for Kevin to abuse his power as a celebrity, as did she abuse her power with her sobriety that night in comparison to Kevin. 

I do think both were in the wrong that night. Kevin in how he used Charlotte for drugs and was rude to her all because his head was focused on getting more drugs, but his mental state was also slowly deteriorating that night from withdrawal. Charlotte in how she was so focused on her high school crush on Kevin and living out her fantasy that she didn't see the signs of someone not interested in her. I do think both ended up in a situation that they shouldn't have been in. Both were looking for different types of comfort, and that led to a very unfortunate and messy situation. 

1 hour ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Not to me.  I was cheering her on for not letting him in.  What Kevin did was horrible.  Sneaking out like that like she's coyote ugly or going to beg him to stop or something.  Or he's too ashamed to acknowledge he'd slept with her.  

And she's not his doctor.  I don't think she did anything wrong.  We never saw him past the point of ability to consent.  Sweat level isn't really a sign of extreme impairment.  He didn't even act that impaired to me, he just looked like shit thanks to the heavy makeup with the dark circles and heavy sweat.  

Kevin was horrible to her, no doubt about it. I'm not cheering him on for doing what he did, and her not opening the door could have made sense, but I think she was hurt over his actions more because that she felt like she was duped into believing her own fantasy of a relationship with him, rather than his actions itself. I do believe that if they wrote that scene as her being aware that he stole a page from her prescription pad, it would have given Charlotte a lot more sympathy from me. But I guess, if she had been aware of that, there'd be more questions on why she wouldn't have noticed his drug addicting behaviour and done something about it. 

My main issue was that he was asking for his dad's necklace, practically begging for her to look for it as he explained why it was important, not even to let him back in, and she slammed the window closed instead. 

However, he was still incredibly drunk, something she definitely took notice of, and then brought him home and they even drank more before having sex. I do think, if not for her crush on Kevin, she would have been more hesitant to just sleep with him. 

[Guest]

My suspicion is that a person like Charlotte in the real world would eventually find the necklace and send it to him.  So I don't  blame her for making him sweat it.  He deserves to feel like total shit in that moment, like he had just done to her.  

[Katy M]

52 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

I agree and it seems odd to me when they talk about Kevin being the oldest as though that few minutes made a difference. 

My best friend is a twin.  She was born first (of the two of them, they have an older brother).  And she has complained to me about how her parents acted like she should be the older sister to her twin, who is like a half hour younger.  So, while it does seem odd to me also, it doesn't mean it's not realistic, at least in some families.

[Bliss]

4 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

And for his attitude toward Jack, I saw that as Kevin pushing down his emotions to protect himself. Much like Jack has done to seem like the perfect dad, husband, and overall person, Kevin has been shown to do the same things. They have their weaknesses and flaws deep down, but they don't like showing it to other people. Unlike Randall, Kate, and Rebecca, who aren't afraid to show their vulnerabilities, Kevin and Jack are different. I think that's why their scene in the hospital got to me. It's one of the few times that Kevin and Jack are both incredibly vulnerable and honest with each other. It's the first time that we've seen Teen Kevin be completely vulnerable. 

Agreed! This was such a healing moment for Kevin (and Jack) and I thought their depiction was very well done... gives me hope that viewers of this show will "get it" and perhaps apply it in real life - the truth-will-set-you-free sort of vibe.

[tinderbox]

On ‎11‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 9:47 PM, methodwriter85 said:

Try nearly 20 years. I love 70's music, but man I really wish this show would explore some of the great stuff that came out of the 90's. "Popular" by Nada Surf would have been a great song for that moment. Or "My Hero" by the Foo Fighters.

I'm going to borrow a quote from The Breakfast Club: "But we think you're crazy to make us write an essay telling you who we think we are. What do you care? You see us as you want to see us - in the simplest terms, in the most convenient definitions."

Basically, Kevin is seen by his high school and hometown as the Hometown Hero Golden Boy who made good. Nothing, and I mean nothing, was going to make them not see him that way.

Getting clearance (or whatever is called) to play most songs on tv/movies/etc costs a ton of money.  My guess is the producers don't or can't pony up for the clearance.

[Bliss]

I found the scene of Kevin admitting he needed help to be quite revealing. There's a psychological component to people who are 'over-achievers' (in a way, Kevin falls into this category, being a talented football player and then a successful actor - even though his vulnerable side is showing his admission of multiple screw-ups) in that there's often an underlying belief - not necessarily internally or externally acknowledged - that asking for help would in some way diminish their superiority. I'm not an expert at this, and perhaps not expressing it properly... I just know the gist of it as I've had to take a look at my hesitancy to ask others for help. I don't believe I'm any better than any other human being - and yet I know I fall into the category of 'privileged' female and sometimes the roots of these beliefs are so deep that it takes an excavator to get them dislodged... enough to take a look at the very least.

Personally, I found his portrayal of hitting bottom to be profound and realistic in the sense that even though people arrive at the point where they admit they need help, it doesn't necessarily mean there will be someone to help (immediately)... especially if this person has been quite self-sufficient and somewhat idolized for most of their life. I think there's an element of shock (disbelief) that someone so famous and successful would (or even could) have an insurmountable issue.

It's interesting to read different perspectives on this scene - we all have our opinions, based on our experiences in life, our lessons learned, and our willingness to be open to possibilities.

[Blakeston]

1 hour ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

My suspicion is that a person like Charlotte in the real world would eventually find the necklace and send it to him.  So I don't  blame her for making him sweat it.  He deserves to feel like total shit in that moment, like he had just done to her.  

I think the pain of believing you've lost your only memento of your dead father is quite a bit different than the pain of a one-night-stand leaving while you're cooking breakfast. It's not like he'd given her any reason to think they were a couple now.

As for his level of intoxication, he wasn't so out-of-it that I'd call it rape, but I'd call it taking advantage.

[Clanstarling]

3 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

I think the pain of believing you've lost your only memento of your dead father is quite a bit different than the pain of a one-night-stand leaving while you're cooking breakfast. It's not like he'd given her any reason to think they were a couple now.

As for his level of intoxication, he wasn't so out-of-it that I'd call it rape, but I'd call it taking advantage.

When two people are in pain at the same time, it's pretty difficult for either one to be rational enough - in the moment - to evaluate whose pain is most worthy. In that moment most people aren't exactly being active listeners and absorbing what the other person is saying to them. I'd say there's also plenty of self-hate causing her to lash out as well.  When she calms down, she may well find the necklace and return it.

But I don't really think that's the point of this scene. I think having everything of Jack's stripped away from him is what gets Kevin to the point of really feeling his pain, so maybe he can start to move toward recovery.

She wasn't exactly sober either, though she was probably a bit more sober. I think they both took advantage of each other. 

[Violetgoblin6]

19 hours ago, BetyBee said:

This must have been a pretty good episode, because I still have Lonesome Loser playing in my head and can't stop thinking about Kevin, once the king of his high school, walking through the halls and remembering when his life had promise.  A somewhat famous guy went to my high school and though he's now in the Hall of Fame there, he's had his addiction issues and he's pretty much thought of as a joke.  Life can smack anyone upside the head and usually does eventually.  I don't usually think about how hard life is for A list high schoolers, but it's an interesting topic.  I thought the weakest part of the episode was the doctor.  It seemed at first that she existed as a true hero vs. his artificial hero status.  But then, instead of helping him (as he once helped her in high school), she used him to fulfill an old fantasy.  And didn't she mention not yet losing baby weight?  So she has a family and she pulled such a cheap trick?  I think that was sloppy writing.  She noticed how much he was drinking and she noticed how he was sweating.  She can't be oblivious to how often alcohol and drugs are a part of stardom.  She made no sense to me.  

Charlotte also had pictures of kids all over her bedroom.

[Clanstarling]

6 hours ago, Violetgoblin6 said:

Charlotte also had pictures of kids all over her bedroom.

I took Charlotte's comment about baby weight to be a kind of a joke about not losing weight since high school (it may be an old expression, but I've often heard people referring to "losing their baby weight" in the sense of losing the chubbiness they had in elementary school, rather than losing the weight gain from pregnancy).

The pictures of kids I took to be the children she's helped as a plastic surgeon.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Clanstarling

[debraran]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

I took Charlotte's comment about baby weight to be a kind of a joke about not losing weight since high school (it may be an old expression, but I've often heard people referring to "losing their baby weight" in the sense of losing the chubbiness they had in elementary school, rather than losing the weight gain from pregnancy).

The pictures of kids I took to be the children she's helped as a plastic surgeon.

That could be true but usually doctor's put those in an office at home or at work. To have so many in a personal place like a bedroom make me think they were related to her.

[Blakeston]

18 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

When two people are in pain at the same time, it's pretty difficult for either one to be rational enough - in the moment - to evaluate whose pain is most worthy. In that moment most people aren't exactly being active listeners and absorbing what the other person is saying to them. I'd say there's also plenty of self-hate causing her to lash out as well.  When she calms down, she may well find the necklace and return it.

But I don't really think that's the point of this scene. I think having everything of Jack's stripped away from him is what gets Kevin to the point of really feeling his pain, so maybe he can start to move toward recovery.

She wasn't exactly sober either, though she was probably a bit more sober. I think they both took advantage of each other. 

I've been brutally rejected by one-night-stands - in worse ways than them just leaving without saying goodbye. I get that it hurts. But if any one of them came sobbing to me later in the day because they'd left the only thing they had left of their dead father in my home, I can't even imagine blowing them off. It takes a brutally cruel person to show no compassion in that situation.

And Charlotte may have had a few drinks that night, but there was no way she was half as out-of-it as Kevin was. And as a doctor, she should have known that something was off.

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

took Charlotte's comment about baby weight to be a kind of a joke about not losing weight since high school (it may be an old expression, but I've often heard people referring to "losing their baby weight" in the sense of losing the chubbiness they had in elementary school, rather than losing the weight gain from pregnancy).

Yes, and I've heard, "She just hasn't lost her baby fat yet," about chubby high school girls.  An even older generation would see such a girl a few years later and say she had, "fined down."  I was once working with a young woman who was losing weight and the old farming customers would look at her and say, "You're looking poor."  I can even remember when a woman like Charlotte would be complimented as, "Pleasingly plump."  That was all before fat became evil.

[kili]

Quote

So I don't  blame her for making him sweat it.  He deserves to feel like total shit in that moment, like he had just done to her.  

She took advantage of a man she knew to be intoxicated. In today's day and age, people know that they are raping people when they have sex with people who are unable to consent. He showed up drunk and proceeded to gulp a lot of booze right in front of her. She knew he was drunk and stumbling around. Even if she didn't know he was hallucinating, she knew how much alcohol he'd consumed. She didn't care.

So, I do blame her. I don't blame rape victims for running out of the house without having a nice chat first. Kevin is so out of it, he doesn't even seem to realize or care that he's been taken advantage of.  He probably thinks he deserves it. 

If you have sex with a completely drunk person, you don't get to be the one horrified if they aren't happy about having had sex the next day.

[Evangeline]

On 11/14/2017 at 10:13 PM, twoods said:

You can't write narcotics on a regular prescription pad, writers! They have to be on triplicates or special paper. Do some research.

How would Kevin know that, though? Does this perhaps vary by state? It never would have come up for him, because his prior prescriptions would have just been written on the doctor's paper prescription pad.  My prescriptions for Vicodin at least have always been written on the same paper as any other prescription I've gotten, not visibly different to me in any way. The paper my doctor uses is different from the white paper in the episode, but I wouldn't have thought that to be significant. He probably should have known that refills aren't allowed, though, since that's something that certainly would have come up. 

[possibilities]

On 11/15/2017 at 11:25 AM, Blakeston said:

But realistically, if a big celebrity gave a speech like that at a high school, I don't think it would be long before TMZ had a headline that said, "Major Star BREAKS DOWN In Front of Schoolchildren!" Complete with a cell phone recording, taken by someone in the audience.

 

Maybe someone did. It's only a few hours since it happened, and Kevin hasn't been checking his phone. His family is also distracted by Kate's emergency. So if someone uploaded a video, it's possible we just haven't heard about it yet.

On 11/15/2017 at 0:33 PM, Katy M said:

 There were more kids there than I would think would show up for an alumni award giving ceremony if it wasn't during school, or at least right after.  

They were excited because Kevin is a star. The student who talked to him said they were excited because of The Manny. I think the high school would be packed to see the celebrity alum that is popular with teens, and also at my school they would combine award ceremonies so that students getting achievement awards would all be at the same event, thus driving turnout. Everyone in every corner of the school community would be given some reason to be there, even without a mega celebrity heart throb which apparently "The Manny" actor is. Add the famous person to the mix and all the kids show up.

RE Kevin not knowing how to write a credible script: I figure he's seen them by looking at the ones he's been filling recently, and could copy that from memory. But I also agree that we don't know that he got it right because he never tried to get it filled. RE electronic filing: I don't know all the rules, but I do know that my PCP doesn't use electronic filing for anything. He has a small practice and he says he can submit bills to Medicare on paper because his annual Medicare billing is below the threshold that forces electronic filing. He's always written everything for me on paper, and his DEA number is printed on the pad. I had a little trouble believing she'd have one of those pads at home, but the other thing is that if they are outdated, maybe she just has it lying around because she DOESN'T use it anymore.

 

On 11/17/2017 at 6:38 PM, Winston9-DT3 said:

And I don't want to minimize the seriousness of miscarriage but I wanted Kevin to recognize his need is still urgent and not exactly something they can't deal with at the same time as Kate's loss.  I know, the actor said he's trying to be strong for his siblings, but there's nothing they can do for Kate besides be supportive and sympathetic and he can do that while also asking for help for himself.  If anything, I would think a shared tragic event would make you want to unburden more, since you're already together and in support mode.  

The problem is that Kevin isn't in a rational state of mind. he hates himself and feels unworthy. I actually know someone who committed suicide rather than admit she needed help. She had the same attitude Kevin has, that she'd fucked up and no one would be there for her, even though a lot of people did care and would have helped if she hadn't hidden her unhappiness and had been willing to let them in.

From our perspective, Kevin isn't hiding. He's a freaking mess. But he's been careful to avoid Sophie and his family. And I think that everyone is taking his behavior personally.

Sophie thinks he's bailing on her because he's unhappy with her-- for the second time. He cheated on her when they were married, begged her to get back together, and now has been avoiding her and says when he thinks about their future it's a nightmare. I get why she's too hurt to see through that to "Kevin's an addict" and why even if she did see it, she might decide it's not her job to take care of him because she's not a martyr or a codependent.

Kate noticed he was off that day, but the two of them have been trying to stop being so enmeshed-- which is why she's working hard at having her own life and he's working hard at not leaning on her; this has been a thing ever since they decided she can't be his assistant anymore. In a way, this makes it worse for him because he feels like he's failing at growing up while she's succeeding (whether or not that's true) and that if he asks for her to help him he's ruining her progress as well as admitting to his failure.

The people at the high school probably thought he was being a dick because he thinks he's better than they are. He was rude on the phone, forgot about the ceremony, only attended grudgingly, showed up looking like he didn't give a shit, got drunk, and was rude and a total downer. So half of them are starstruck and giving him a pass, and the other half are annoyed that he's a cocky asshole who insulted them by not taking it seriously and acting like a jerk. Even if anyone thought: "Damn, he's an alcoholic mess" it would be hard to imagine them knowing what to do-- confront him and have him be more rude, possibly make a scene, and almost definitely deny it's happening? Call the cops because he's drunk and disorderly? His behavior wasn't bad enough to get him arrested. Call his agent and have it denied? I'm sure they figure he has people who already know what he's like and either enable it or are in a better position to deal with it than they are.

Ditto with the hotel staff. I'm sure they deal with drunk people all the time. They can't be expected to somehow magically get every patron on a bender into rehab.

I think it's pretty typical for addicts to hide their behavior out of shame or defiance, and Kevin has been shown to be isolating himself from loved ones. He's done filming the movie, so he doesn't have a job to go to where people would notice, either.

I don't really get how he could be sobbing on someone's front lawn and she wouldn't hear that and call the cops if she didn't want to deal with him  herself, or how he could be that broken down and not maybe try to get himself checked into rehab. He has resources. But I guess he thought when he got to Randall's, Randall would help him figure out where to go or what to do.

I watched on Hulu and didn't see previews, so I don't know... maybe he does tell Randall he needs help, even after he hears about Kate's miscarriage. But if he doesn't, I take that to be because he goes right into spiraling about how he fucked up again by not taking her calls, and resumes trying to hide his own problems because of his shame and guilt. But with being in physical withdrawal the way he was, I don't know how well that would work, because he's not just craving a fix, he's sweaty and totally looks SICK. Though maybe the adrenaline kicks in when he gets shocked about missing Kate's calls, and that covers it up at least for a short while. Or maybe he finds narcotics at Randall's house, possibly leftover from William's hospice time there.

I do think 20 years is a long time not to deal with something. But I know people who do suddenly have a breakdown decades after anyone thought they'd ever face their issue. Sometimes people are very good at coping and hiding from things, until the last straw hits their camel and it all crumbles.

I also think that because Kevin copes by acting out and being a jerk, he does burn a lot of bridges and carry a lot of guilt. It's much easier to keep coasting if you have money and no one you are close enough and committed to enough is in your life who can call you on your shit and really keep you honest. He and Kate have been enabling for each other for a long time. She is not healthy enough to be his accountability and reality check. And it doesn't look like he's got anyone else. His agent dumped him after his Manny meltdown, and that apparently was his first acting job. I'm sure when he was doing hair and waiting tables or whatever, he had no trouble cutting losses and getting the next temporary job whenever things got too uncomfortable. So he's been holding it together and not really having to face his inner issues until now.

Maybe because of their supposed role in however Jack died, Kate and Kevin feel more guilty than Randall does, and that's why they're a little more stuck than he is.

Edited November 19, 2017 by possibilities

[twoods]

4 hours ago, Evangeline said:

How would Kevin know that, though? Does this perhaps vary by state? It never would have come up for him, because his prior prescriptions would have just been written on the doctor's paper prescription pad.  My prescriptions for Vicodin at least have always been written on the same paper as any other prescription I've gotten, not visibly different to me in any way. The paper my doctor uses is different from the white paper in the episode, but I wouldn't have thought that to be significant. He probably should have known that refills aren't allowed, though, since that's something that certainly would have come up. 

Probably. I guess it's highlighting that someone who is high and addicted is lacking any critical thinking and just wants his meds. I wonder how he got to Randall's house while he was withdrawing, unless he scored some pills. In California, you're flagged if there are a certain number of prescriptions that are filled for narcotics. The prescriptions are different than regular ones as well, but who knows what happens in Pennsylvania. I'm surprised we didn't we haven't gotten a scene of him trying to buy some illegally.

[jacksgirl]

I'm out until this story arc is over. I hate addicted Kevin. Come on writers,  move on, don't go all Rosie Larson on us. What happened to Jack? I'll come here to get my snark, but that's it.

[debraran]

14 hours ago, possibilities said:

I do think 20 years is a long time not to deal with something. But I know people who do suddenly have a breakdown decades after anyone thought they'd ever face their issue. Sometimes people are very good at coping and hiding from things, until the last straw hits their camel and it all crumbles.

I also think that because Kevin copes by acting out and being a jerk, he does burn a lot of bridges and carry a lot of guilt. It's much easier to keep coasting if you have money and no one you are close enough and committed to enough is in your life who can call you on your shit and really keep you honest. He and Kate have been enabling for each other for a long time. She is not healthy enough to be his accountability and reality check. And it doesn't look like he's got anyone else. His agent dumped him after his Manny meltdown, and that apparently was his first acting job. I'm sure when he was doing hair and waiting tables or whatever, he had no trouble cutting losses and getting the next temporary job whenever things got too uncomfortable. So he's been holding it together and not really having to face his inner issues until now.

Maybe because of their supposed role in however Jack died, Kate and Kevin feel more guilty than Randall does, and that's why they're a little more stuck than he is.

 

I just thought 20 years being so close and celebrating holiday's together, birthday's, watching Kate eat her pain(according to story) and all the other symptoms would be so apparent. I don't know if Beth would havve kept narcotics in the house after William, but that is a good idea. Justin Heartly did say that he doesn't get to tell him and pushes it down further. That got me upset, it so contrived, I like how the show is usually original. To have him fall hard and then reach out to Randall, only to have Kate's issue derail it, seemed contrived. If he lets Kevin talk about it and then Kevin starts to cry and he realizes something else is up, that's better to me. But the writers will get to it in their own way. He said maybe it will be a circle from him helping Randall when he broke down.

They can't show old conversations about his death between Rebecca and the kids because that might reveal too much. It's like that part of their lives is just cut out. I'm not sure why how Jack died became so important, we always knew he was dead in season one.

Was therapy for kids just not done in that era? I remember people telling me they needed a lot of therapy after a death but different cultures and age groups sometimes discounted it.

Edited November 20, 2017 by debraran

[IntrovertGal]

I have watched this episode several times now and I still tear up each time, especially during the Kevin and Jack scene in the hospital scene, during Kevin's monologue on the football field and and when he is breaking down in Charlotte's garden asking for help. Kevin has always been one of my favourite characters so I of course absolutely loved this episode. Yes the whole film star hooked on painkillers thing is a cliché but I don't mind it if we get to see such a powerful performance from Justin Hartley. I don't know, I have always felt closest to Kevin, he is the character I can relate to the most. I just hope that he is still willing to deal with his addiction in the next episode and doesn't hide it from Randall, his family, Sophie, etc. and he doesn't keep on using because of Kate's miscarriage. I kinda hate that the writers did it this way, the timing of it all sucks.

[Pallas]

23 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Which made no sense to me, either, because as to thinking they'd have a bedspread picnic and warm afterglow, when did an alcohol-fueled one night stand ever turn out like that? 

 

23 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

She wasn't thinking. She was still deeply inside in her fantasy. Logical thought hasn't even come close to rearing its sobering head.

 

19 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I think most of her hurt was not just at Kevin, but also herself for letting her get so wrapped up in her own little fantasy that she couldn't see that Kevin was not interested in pursuing a relationship with her at all.

 

17 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

When two people are in pain at the same time, it's pretty difficult for either one to be rational enough - in the moment - to evaluate whose pain is most worthy. In that moment most people aren't exactly being active listeners and absorbing what the other person is saying to them. I'd say there's also plenty of self-hate causing her to lash out as well. 

 

19 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I do think both ended up in a situation that they shouldn't have been in. Both were looking for different types of comfort, and that led to a very unfortunate and messy situation. 

Kevin wasn't the only one honored at Homecoming, in the hometown that Charlotte never left. (Where's Charlotte's family? Oh wait, I know: Charlotte's family's dead, killed in a house fire that spread from the Pearson's, while she was working at the mall, to save for college.) Anyway. Charlotte was also honored that day. When the Sophie look-alike invited Charlotte, she probably mentioned the other two honorees. Charlotte had time to fantasize -- in part, as a way to distract herself from her nerves about returning to the scene of her teenage humiliations, to be singled out again.

Weeks later, Kevin shows up at the pre-ceremony reception, preceded by his charisma: still perceptible to others, even through his fog. His rudeness barely registers. What Charlotte sees isn't the distress of a decompensating junkie. She sees her high school crush who the world now recognizes as a star -- yet who is, here and now, touchingly less at ease than she. And from there, Kevin goes on tell the 2017 version of their high school student body that he doesn't deserve this honor: she does. 

If no one else heard him, Charlotte did. She'd seen him brought to tears about his father and embrace his coach; she heard him confess that he wasn't strong, then remember her name and point to her, as someone who should be esteemed. She saw Kevin see her. And at the post-ceremony reception, when he obviously still feels out of place, she suggests they take a walk. They sit down and Kevin tries to explain how no one sees him. Charlotte thinks she does, and says she does, then dares to make a move.

That was the point where most of us still probably expected the camera to close in on Kevin's baffled, wary face, then cut to Charlotte and slowly push in as (with her make-up refreshed) she delivers a speech that begins, "I see a lonely, confused..." But she'd placed her hand on his thigh, not his shoulder, and now Kevin sees only that. He says, "Don't do that," takes the bottle from her and disappears. Charlotte returns to the post-party, because that's what you do; it would be rude to leave without thanking the committee, and there's comfort in numbers. Or maybe Charlotte is someone who stays behind to help clean up a party in her honor. 

But Kevin comes back, just before Charlotte starts emptying the crudité and crackers into jumbo zip-lock bags. Kevin looks different: sobered up with purpose; focused, and focused on her. He sees her; he heard her. He beckons. Okay, so no, he doesn't want to call the limo, drive back into the city and take her to his hotel. It's better: he wants to see where she lives; he wants to spend the night back home, with her. Yes he's drunk, but he wasn't drunk -- he had barely started drinking -- when he said, onstage, "I don't know why I'm here, and I don't deserve this. But you do."

After sex upstairs, Charlotte's feeling bold enough to let Kevin know he's ripe; he disappears into her bathroom, moves around, then comes out and says something about his low blood sugar: does she maybe have something to eat? He asks, looking like he should get back in bed, and she suggests a first-fuck-bedspread-picnic: just like the new lovers in Heartburn. And while Kevin's tossing her bedroom, Charlotte's downstairs, casing her own kitchen, and laughing at the evidence that she's no Nora Ephron, always ready with the carbonara. She's just glad he didn't ask her for more booze. Will Kevin play along? 

Kevin doesn't so much play along as sneak out of the house behind her back, after getting her out of the way. He gives her plenty of time to take that in, along with the scent of his flop sweat in her bedroom, as she cleans up after another party she thought was in her honor. Lots of time, but not enough. He doesn't wait until morning before he returns. When Charlotte doesn't answer her door, he stands on her lawn and makes a scene, until she tries to shut him up. But no, she has to listen: he's come back for something he wants, something he left behind when he fled from her. 

We don't know what Charlotte did. Maybe she left the door locked, to protect what Kevin had no use for. Or maybe she let him in, like a lost dog, and kept her distance. She may have realized that he was probably in withdrawal -- and for that reason, left the door locked, or let him in. Maybe she was moved to try to help. I agree with Clanstarling that the point of the scene is what Kevin did, not Charlotte. For me the point is also that Charlotte could choose one of many responses, and not be "right" where she was "wrong" before.

[laurakaye]

On 11/18/2017 at 5:38 AM, himela said:

I think the best thing Kate and Toby can do is consider adoption. Let's be realistic, there is no way Kate can give birth to a healthy baby given both her age and her weight. It's dangerous to continue trying so I think it's better to apply for adoption and not waste any more time.

You all don't think that somehow Deja is going to be adopted by Kate and Toby, do you?  I know it's completely unpractical and over the top, but this is This is Us we're talking about.  Why couldn't Kate storm into a judge's chambers uninvited and deliver a monologue worthy of making the judge sign over all the papers whilst the tears roll down his cheeks and onto his robe?

 

45 minutes ago, Pallas said:

Kevin wasn't the only one honored at Homecoming, in the hometown that Charlotte never left. (Where's Charlotte's family? Oh wait, I know: Charlotte's family's dead, killed in a house fire that spread from the Pearson's, while she was working at the mall, to save for college.) Anyway. Charlotte was also honored that day. When the Sophie look-alike invited Charlotte, she probably mentioned the other two honorees. Charlotte had time to fantasize -- in part, as a way to distract herself from her nerves about returning to the scene of her teenage humiliations, to be singled out again.............

I had more fun reading this post than watching the actual show.

[himela]

7 minutes ago, laurakaye said:

You all don't think that somehow Deja is going to be adopted by Kate and Toby, do you?  I know it's completely unpractical and over the top, but this is This is Us we're talking about.  Why couldn't Kate storm into a judge's chambers uninvited and deliver a monologue worthy of making the judge sign over all the papers whilst the tears roll down his cheeks and onto his robe?

Ok you'll think I'm just saying this but it DID cross my mind, I just found it too much even for This Is Us. Deja's mother wants her back after all.

[laurakaye]

3 minutes ago, himela said:

Ok you'll think I'm just saying this but it DID cross my mind, I just found it too much even for This Is Us. Deja's mother wants her back after all.

But can she beat the Pearsons in a monologue contest?  I mean, Rebecca got a judge to dismiss himself from their adoption case.  I hate to say it, but I can totally see this pattern repeating itself.  The show loves its history.

[himela]

17 minutes ago, laurakaye said:

But can she beat the Pearsons in a monologue contest?  I mean, Rebecca got a judge to dismiss himself from their adoption case.  I hate to say it, but I can totally see this pattern repeating itself.  The show loves its history.

Hehe that was 1980, it;s 2017 now. These things don't happen in real life, at least anymore. Thankfully...

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, himela said:

Hehe that was 1980, it;s 2017 now. These things don't happen in real life, at least anymore. Thankfully...

Wait, are you saying that it's a good thing that judges with a racial bias no longer recuse themselves?

[himela]

12 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Wait, are you saying that it's a good thing that judges with a racial bias no longer recuse themselves?

I hope that judges with racial bias don't even exist...

[ShadowFacts]

2 hours ago, Pallas said:

We don't know what Charlotte did. Maybe she left the door locked, to protect what Kevin had no use for. Or maybe she let him in, like a lost dog, and kept her distance. She may have realized that he was probably in withdrawal -- and for that reason, left the door locked, or let him in. Maybe she was moved to try to help. I agree with Clanstarling that the point of the scene is what Kevin did, not Charlotte. For me the point is also that Charlotte could choose one of many responses, and not be "right" where she was "wrong" before.

The thing about Charlotte that was most relevant to me (like a ton of bricks on the head) was that she was not only a distinguished alum doctor that Kevin could possibly get some drugs from, but that she was a plastic surgeon for burn patients, a fact that Kevin barely visibly reacted to, if at all. 

[Katy M]

18 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

The thing about Charlotte that was most relevant to me (like a ton of bricks on the head) was that she was not only a distinguished alum doctor that Kevin could possibly get some drugs from, but that she was a plastic surgeon for burn patients, a fact that Kevin barely visibly reacted to, if at all. 

It took me a couple of minutes to figure out why he should visibly react to that. But, then I guess you're thinking that is proof that Jack didn't need reconstructive surgery after a fire.