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S04.E07: A Dark Knight: A Day in the Narrows

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With Professor Pyg striking fear throughout Gotham, Gordon and Bullock head into the Narrows to look for clues. Bruce Wayne meets a former friend, Grace, who convinces him to come along for a night out with some old classmates. Meanwhile, Sofia's relationships with Penguin and Gordon continue to evolve.

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Babs, Tabs, and Little Kat what do we call them?  The Three Amigas or the Sisterhood of the Traveling Psychos?  All I know is I love the idea of three strong women teaming up to crime up Gotham.  

Speaking up crime.  Piggly and Jimbo.  It seems by the end of the episode the GCPD likes Jim again.  Hey lets see how long it lasts this time.  I mean really who didn't see that trap coming...I gets everyone but Jimbo.  

And Bruce Wayne is acting like a normal bratty rich kid.   It just seems wrong.  Its kinda creepy.

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Loving Pyg. This episode had me stressed with all the yelling (how is harvey able to yell so much in his condition?)

  • Pleasantly surprised they didn't catch pyg this episode. The guy who plays him is awesome so it's cool. He can stick around.
  • I was kinda thinking that the cop guy might be pyg when he repeated the officer's words to jim, but then i was like...'nah' but then they went and did it. That was a nice twist even if it was half-expected
  • Pyg continues to fanboy over jim even though jim confessed to working for ozzy???
  • With this, Jim and Harvey are officially divorced and my heart is broken
  • Harvey's on a downward spiral. Someone save him. I hate seeing him like this.
  • Penguin's hair reached new heights tonight
  • Pretty sure selina has the worst track record ever when it comes to heists. I can't remember the last one where nothing went wrong
  • Babs coming in and slaying like a queen
  • That was a really gruesome way to go. Ick. Death by burning rubber. 
  • Head hunter was entertaining but of course he didn't last. I hope the competent detective lady doesn't meet the same fate. 
  • Bruce has upgraded from billionaire brat to billionaire playboy. Dang. He was savage. Another parallel with batman begins when he buys the place.
  • This stuff with jim would work so much better if he didn't do quite as many bad deeds as he's done. I feel like they're trying to retool him back to more how he was in season 1.
  • First episode without Victor this season, i believe. He deserves his vacation though.

I'm honestly enjoying the recent focus on the gcpd. It reminds me of season 1 and how i imagined the show to be. Cop antics with a side of bruce wayne and villains. I know most people prefer, by far, bruce and the villains, but i appreciate the cop focus.

Edited by HoodlumSheep
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I did enjoy Penguin telling Jim off. Partying Bruce was fun, even if it's weird knowing the actor isn't even legally allowed to drink (hey, maybe that was all apple juice?).

Oh, and the debut of The Sirens seems to have been a hit...even if it got off to a wonky start.

I do appreciate that Bullock is getting a lot of work, but I still want to see where this is going. I am beginning to think it's Jim who is being played by Pyg and he's just not realizing it.

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I have watched this show from the beginning, and I have to say I think it's getting boring.

The same old thing with Jim/Harvey/GCPD.

I'm getting tired of The Penguin.

Barbara is a terrible character.

We need more Selina.

They were too quick to stop the Ra's al Ghul story line.

Don't think party-boy Bruce is going to make things more interesting.

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Oh Gotham. The city where a package delivery guy can see blood dripping from a box and just say "Well damn, thats going to stain my truck" and just make the delivery. 

I really like the focus on the GCPD lately, and that the force is respecting Gordon again. For the next five minutes anyway. But poor Harvey. I hope he doesn't beat himself up to much, it wasn't his fault. Gordon and Jim are never allowed to break up, ok show? You can have Jim's relationships with a thousand crazy chicks fall apart, but Harvey and Jim are my platonic OTP! 

Pyg is still super creepy. The guy does a lot with a little, and I like that. Especially on this show. 

Interesting seeing Bruce cultivate his Millionaire Playboy persona more and more. He is fully committed to it now it looks like. It really is kind of weird watching Bruce drink and party knowing the actor is underage, but so is Bruce, so...

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"This is C.O.D." "Get the hell out of here!" Never change, Gotham. Never, ever change.

"Zsasz, Headhunter was an idiot! What were you thinking?" "That you'd miss me like crazy when I got back?" "Okay, I can see that. Get a couple of boys over here. I'm gonna try to tame my hair."

I reckon the episode could've been titled "Everybody Sucks Except Jim." I know, he's flawed and a bit of an asshole, but he's not a total Gary Stu. Bullock has basically turned, though it has been for the greater good. Still, I keep expecting Jim to snatch Harvey's hat and hit the men's room for a few minutes.

Bruce Gone Wild. I dunno . . . as much as I was iffy about the Baby Bat setup, I don't know if I can tell with Bruce Kardashian. Wayndashian? Basically, I figure Alfred will dive in for the rescue in a few episodes.

Liking the ladies, even if they're still flawed. Well, the adults, anyway. I find Selina to be consistent in the sense that I don't facepalm as much as I would with Tabitha or Barbara. Especially Barbara.

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 Party boy Bruce is a little weird since the actor is still under age. But I guess it's a good set up for when he does get his head back in the game. 

I loved Babs just walking in and shooting, she really has no care in the world. I'm still want to know what Ra's did to her with that glowy hand thing. I'm all for a Tab, Bab and Cat becoming the Gotham City Sirens. I wonder if 2nd new Ivy will join them. Apparently Selina's been in corner sulking that she couldn't commit any crimes for the past 2 weeks. I do like that Tabitha does seem to care about her. I kind of forgot she was the same way with Silver. 

I'm glad Penguin mentioned Jim being a dirty cop because they were acting like Gordon was some kind of saint when he usually does whatever he wants to get the job the done including working with bad guys which he did quite often. Even now he's trying to work with Sofia Falcone to stop Penguin. Of course out of the Gotham cops he's the good one, but that's not saying much. 

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I know Headhunter was silly even for this show, but I enjoyed him. He was like Ice the bounty hunter/party planner from Arrested Development. But with a signature.

LOLing at the club kids partying to decades-old songs by Spandau Ballet and the Prodigy. I get that the show exists somewhat out of time, but that's the kind of DJ set I'd be spinning and I can just imagine the teenagers in my life rolling their eyes at poor old Uncle PhoneCop.

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“I’m not a dirty cop!” “Except for all the times you are.” Like...seriously. And Jim yelling that the city needs to learn that they can be safe without a gangster...all while he’s working with a gangster to bring down Oswald. It’s good that some of the characters call Jim on his shit and Jim even confesses to some of his shit, but then the narrative tries to tell us Jim is a white knight. It doesn’t all fit together and it doesn’t quite work for me (though overall I was far less annoyed by Jim than I usually am).

Pyg (who has clearly seen “Silence off the Lambs” and took a page from Hannibal Lecter’s book) seems to be setting Jim up as the hero. Why? A part of me wonders if Pyg is working with Sofia,  but I can’t make it fit.

Also, how easily swayed is the GCPD? One minute, totally down with Oswald and his goons, the next they’re tearing up licenses and high-fiving Jim. I swear if Oswald comes in tomorrow with freshly baked cookies they’ll be right back on his side.

Jim really needs to climb down off his high horse and help Harvey out. Or at least talk to him. The man is a mess - popping painkillers for a relatively minor cut, and while he’s always had the flask in his desk, he’s never stood in the middle of the floor taking swigs then stumbling back to his desk. Jim, you owe at least that much. He’s always had your back. Get his.

Oswald, you can’t just go around stabbing people because YOU effed up and now you have egg on your face. Headhunter was kinda fun. The hair is also reaching Marge Simpson proportions. 

Man, Sofia is REALLY leaning into the nurturing/mothering/Mary Poppins thing. I guess she found something that worked on Oswald and she’s running with it. She’s surrounded herself with moppets, acts all motherly with them, and even the poofy, full skirt and the bow in her hair (note how different she looked in the preview for next week with Jim). I’m surprised she didn’t arrange for a little cartoon bird to fly in the window and help her clean. She also reverse psychology’d Oswald into a dumb decision (and she’s totally right about the GCPD sucking and how they’ll always eventually eff up and he’d be better to step away from them). See, I think she’s actually trying to put Oswald and Jim against each other (which is why I wonder if she’s somehow working with Pyg). Those two will be too busy picking at each other and then she can slip right past them both.

I’m torn - I kinda want Selina to break away and do her own thing, but I like that Tabs actually cares about her, and Babs was kind of a badass tonight.

Edited by Kostgard
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Glad that the Sirens actually did something tonight. While this teamup is a thing, I want more of them together and less Selina taking orders. It looks like they have a big role next episode.

Glad to see Jim actually admit to some of his shortcomings in this episode and people calling him out. He was not as annoying as he has been in his non-Bruce scenes.  His roughness with Harvey seems forced though.

As I thought, I didn't get any "the new girl is Talia in secret" vibes. She didn't get as much of a role tonight as I thought she would though. Wonder if they have plans to do more with Tommy Elliott later on.

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Well this was a good set up for the Sirens and Bruce's party boy lifestyle. 

Interesting they've also aged up Tommy Elliot by some noticeable years as well. Will they go mini-Hush territory with him at some point?

I did like seeing Barbara, Tabitha and Selina working together. Hope they do add Ivy into the mix at some point.

Both Gordon and Bullock had points but also both of them were in the wrong too. Pyg is emerging well as a villain. Loving his arc so far.

Some good scenes with Oswald too, 7/10

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This show is fun but not to be taken the least bit seriously.  The acting is great though.  It really kinda is.

The fun stuff:

The Sirens.  A storyline with three ladies.  Whoo boy I am so in.  I am calling them the sisterhood of the traveling psychopaths.

The GCPD.  As always one moment they want to shoot Jim in the back and the next they want to vote him king of the world.   

Sofia is so very much playing into Penguins need to be mothered.  

Bad Boy Bruce is awesome.  Is it wrong I want him to stick around for a couple of episodes before broody Bruce comes back?

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14 hours ago, WritinMan said:

I have watched this show from the beginning, and I have to say I think it's getting boring.

The same old thing with Jim/Harvey/GCPD.

I'm getting tired of The Penguin.

Barbara is a terrible character.

We need more Selina.

They were too quick to stop the Ra's al Ghul story line.

Don't think party-boy Bruce is going to make things more interesting.

So far not as good as last season, to be sure.  Pyscho Babs was fun.  Cold calculating Babs not so much.  Butch was fun, Grundy not so much.  Mastermind Riddler was fun, mentally challenged Riddler not so much.  Bruce as Batman in training was fun, Bruce the party boy not so much.  I understand the show does have to go in some of these directions.  Canon Harvey was a corrupt cop, so they had to do his corrupt cop storyline, thankfully now that's done.  Bruce Wayne was a playboy when not becoming Batman, so the show needs to explore this side of him.  Now that Penguin has lost his grip on the GCPD, he can go back to just being a criminal they have to contend with.  I am enjoying Pyg, and Penguin's "hitman" had me busting up multiple times.  There are still a lot of episodes to go this season, and now that they have cleared this opening act I am hopeful that the show can get down to some real fun the rest of the way.

Edited by Dobian
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Pretty obvious Pyg was the "wounded" cop in the ambulance.  Could see it coming a mile away.

Is Harvey an addict?  He seems to be popping pills quite frequently.

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18 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Is Harvey an addict?  He seems to be popping pills quite frequently.

He's a cop in Gotham City, in a precinct where nobody says "boo" if delivery mooks bring in red-stained boxes. If it turned out that opiates and other numbing drugs confiscated by the cops was then used by them? Not only would I not be shocked, I wouldn't blame any of them.

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This ep was a little uneven for me but overall I enjoyed it.  The actor that plays Bruce is surprisingly good and he pulled off the quiet rage of Batman/Bruce Wayne pretty convincingly.  Pyg continues to over-perform as a villain, he's damn creepy and for me he is a villain that Gordon should be matched up against instead of the Riddler or some of the others, who to my mind are all out of Gordon's league or at least should be.  

I think I would enjoy the ladies aligning more if it was just Tabitha and Cat.  Barbara has grown very stale for me and its becoming more clear that she\s there because the show runners like the actress rather than any real need for her to be there because of the story.  That plot gets a little forced when she is involved, which is a shame because the other two have an interesting dynamic.  

I'm a little confused by the reaction of fans to what's happening with Harvey and can only assume that many fans didn't read the comics.  I've been waiting for Bullock's inevitable fall into corruption and the Gotham stink since day one. 

33 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Pretty obvious Pyg was the "wounded" cop in the ambulance.  Could see it coming a mile away.

Is Harvey an addict?  He seems to be popping pills quite frequently.

Harvey was talking about being in debt.  Maybe the pill popping has to do with that.

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2 hours ago, Rascotes said:

I'm a little confused by the reaction of fans to what's happening with Harvey and can only assume that many fans didn't read the comics.  I've been waiting for Bullock's inevitable fall into corruption and the Gotham stink since day one. 

As Harvey Bullock's No. 1 Fan™, I will state that it does not bother me that Harvey uses "less than legal" methods to catch criminals and that he's more inclined to work with baddies as long as it gets the job done. I would expect Bullock to do no less, because it's established that he's the maverick while his partner, Jim Gordon, is the moralist.

My problem with what the show is doing is fourfold:

  1. The conflict seems to be a way to drive Bullock and Gordon apart, which probably means that Bullock is turning "evil" (as in he'll no longer be seen as someone we should root for) and may even be on the way out of the show's narrative as a result.
  2. This conflict should have occurred in S1, not in S4, where the two characters eventually come to an understanding and figure out how to work together while still maintaining their core principles.
  3. Given everything that's happened so far in the series, it's downright hypocritical of the show to believe it can portray Gordon- as he is now- as some kind of "moral savant" who can claim some kind of high horse over all of his colleagues, Bullock included, especially considering that Bullock has, many times, bent over backwards for Jim when he's gone off the deep end.
  4. It's cheap drama and ruins one of the best dynamics of the show. When it's at its best, Bullock/Gordon is the show's best pairing, as Donal Logue and Ben McKenzie just ooze chemistry. I might even say it's among TV's best pairings- it's up there alongside Morgan/Reid on Criminal Minds. This show should be milking it for all it's worth, which yes does mean there should be drama and conflict, but their relationship should inform it. The show should not clumsily insert things to create drama in the relationship, and it certainly shouldn't think "let's break these two up just to spice things up!". The show already did both with Oswald/Nygma, which really grated my nerves. Doing it to Bullock/Gordon would be a deal-breaker for me.
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The problem I am having with the Jim/Harvey scenes is that I am not completly against Harvey's point of view.  He is not wrong.  Penguin with all his dirty deeds at least for a time did keep the murder rate low.  Jim on the other hand looked like a moralist douche bag not even willing to see any side but his own.  That kind of one sided thinking is often just as dangerous as anything else.  To me no matter how much the show is trying to make Jim Gordon seem like the shining hope for Gotham (which he SHOULD be) he looks nothing more then self-rightous and dangerous.    Harvey on the other hand looks incredibly "rootable" despite the fact that he is taking bribes.  He means well and he wants what is best for the GCPD and is willing to deal with whoever he needs to to protect his brother in arms even if that means the Penguin.  Maybe he crossed a line actually taking bribes but I more respect for him willing to work with Penguin then I did with Jim who ran off looking for Falcone....a mob boss who had kidnapped his one time girlfriend Barbara by the way to get him to take on Penguin and reinstate the GCPD as rule of law.  

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Gotham has ruined Harvey for me just like they did Lee. I don't care if it does adhere to comic canon more because the show doesn't always follow that. Danielg342 covered all the reasons why this development sucks.

 

And what is going on with  Oswald hair? It's getting ridiculous and distracting.

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Damn.. I liked headhunter... I think the show made a mistake there.. He was a weirdo with some potential... I'm always up for more Tabitha and selina... Don't care abt crazy Babs.. But she did regulate in the garage scene... Jim as usual kinda seems like a hypocritical self righteous... But right a-hole... Whatevs... Just don't kill Harper also.. Give Harper more lines... Where's lucious Fox?... Bruce was Savage.. I loved it

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Totally could tell that was Michael Cerveris under all that facial hair, but I still enjoyed it when Jim found out he got played (again.)  Pyg is definitely becoming one  of my new favorite villains.  Hope continues to avoid the GCPD (that shouldn't be hard) and be a thorn in Jim's side.

The GCPD really are mindless sheep though.  They're all "Oswald is the best.  Yeah, Team Oswald!", but then when Jim manages to save their sorry asses, now they're all "Boo, Oswald!  Fuck him!  Go Jim!" about everything.  I honestly would not trust a single one of them, except maybe this Harper character.

I'm really starting to worry that Bullock will not make it past this season.  He is looking worse and worse by the minute.

I kind of got a kick out of Headhunter and slightly bummed he's already gone, but it was kind of nice to see Oswald show the overtly-violent side again.  For a brief second I wondered if Zsasz would be unhappy about this, but then I remembered this is Victor Zsasz we're talking about, and at most he might ask why Oswald did it and then after he hears the answer, he'll probably just shrug his shoulders and say "OK", and go back to sharpening his knives or whatever he does in his spare time.

The Selina/Tabitha/Barbara team was pretty fun.

Bruce is now letting loose and acting like the Party Boy Bruce character that Bruce will eventually adapt when he gets older, but for now, it's the real deal.  And I have a feeling that his new love interest will have a significant part to play later on.

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3 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

The problem I am having with the Jim/Harvey scenes is that I am not completly against Harvey's point of view.  He is not wrong.  Penguin with all his dirty deeds at least for a time did keep the murder rate low.  Jim on the other hand looked like a moralist douche bag not even willing to see any side but his own.  That kind of one sided thinking is often just as dangerous as anything else.  To me no matter how much the show is trying to make Jim Gordon seem like the shining hope for Gotham (which he SHOULD be) he looks nothing more then self-rightous and dangerous.    Harvey on the other hand looks incredibly "rootable" despite the fact that he is taking bribes.  He means well and he wants what is best for the GCPD and is willing to deal with whoever he needs to to protect his brother in arms even if that means the Penguin.  Maybe he crossed a line actually taking bribes but I more respect for him willing to work with Penguin then I did with Jim who ran off looking for Falcone....a mob boss who had kidnapped his one time girlfriend Barbara by the way to get him to take on Penguin and reinstate the GCPD as rule of law.  

This is my issue as well - or rather, the inconsistency between the narrative push that keeps telling us that Jim is the hero and the factors they write in that show it's all far more complicated than that. 

Oswald did lower the crime rate. Yes, he's profiting off of it, but also in his own twisted way he believes he's helping the city and wants to help (it's tied into his desperate need for love and approval. It's why he kept running to the press in this episode and tried to get Sofia to tell him what a good boy he was saving cops' lives) and would probably do it for free if people patted him on the head and told him how great he is.  Yet, despite all this, it is also true that a criminal like Oswald shouldn't be controlling the city like that. And yet...Harvey still has a point. At this point it's better to go with it because there isn't a better alternative. And as Harvey pointed out this episode, despite his criminal record, Oswald is a legitimized figure in the city so this isn't entirely insane. He was elected mayor fair and square a year ago. The GCPD suck ass, Harvey knows it, and  he's just trying to keep  those idiots safe. He doesn't want to step away from Oswald because he was doing a better job that the cops were able to do and he had a point that they shouldn't shove Oswald out without a backup plan to replace his efforts. He may be on the take, but he was already doing what he was currently doing before the cash bonus came in. 

So, there are all these complicating factors, and then there's the biggest one of all - Jim is currently partnering with one criminal in order to bring another criminal down. And HE'S ALWAYS DONE THIS. It's just that usually the criminal he partners with is Oswald. Oswald called him on that this episode. Jim called himself on this. So, they've written it to show that this is all a much more complicated mess than it might appear to be on the surface, and yet the narrative is still giving Jim the big hero push. The tone is telling us that Jim here is right, he's the only one who is righteous and true. But the actual story tells us he's not. He's really not. He's still up to old tricks, just with a different criminal this time. This is the part I find confusing and inconsistent. The show needs Jim to be the hero, but they haven't written him to be the hero. At least not yet. And they should not act like he is until he actually gets there.

I'm hoping it will all blow up in Jim's face (possibly when Sofia's plan comes to fruition). And then Jim will finally figure out that he needs to actually walk the walk and not just look down his nose at everyone else while he's just as corrupt as they are. And then he'll owe Harvey a big fat apology. That's actually what pisses me off the most here - Harvey has stuck by Jim through thick and thin and partially skimmed. Stood by him all through his stupid/illegal dealings. Always has his back. And yet now that Harvey is really hitting the skids, Jim isn't helping his friend. That's just dick behavior (I largely see this whole situation as a poor reflection on Jim and not on Harvey). At least I suspect/hope that Jim will get a wake-up call in regards to Harvey, since both BM and DL have mentioned in interviews that Jim is being a big ol' hypocrite about Harvey. I'm guessing they wouldn't talk about it in interviews unless Jim being a hypocritical dick about Harvey ends up being part of the story (and not just something the viewers see but the show never addresses). So I'm willing to see where they go with it, but they REALLY need to figure out that they can't legitimately sell Jim as the hero until he acts like one.

 

3 hours ago, Richness said:

And what is going on with  Oswald hair? It's getting ridiculous and distracting.

I kept waiting for people to stop listening to him talking and just stare at his hair in fascination as it bobbed around. Or for Sofia to do the mom thing and try to smooth it down with her hand. But at least we got the little girl staring at him. I like to think it was out of fascination/horror at his hair.  

And who knows why it was this nuts this episode. Judging from the promo pics for the next two episodes, it's calmed back down to where it was earlier in the season. Was there a narrative purpose to the hair? Or was the hair department just experimenting and after this episode they were all, "Yikes. That was a mistake." 

 

I don't think Grace is Talia, either. I think she was just a way for Bruce to indulge in his douchebag persona. 

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I mean there's no way they're bringing on Tommy Elliot again without doing anything about it. Throwing Hush and Talia at him at the same time? Well then again, it's Gotham. 

Seriously that recast of Tommy is silly. He's what, 25? Damn good looking kid but I mean wtf uhhh...

Yeah my comment-fu isn't the best.

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This stuff with jim would work so much better if he didn't do quite as many bad deeds as he's done. I feel like they're trying to retool him back to more how he was in season 1.

I think they are too, and while I understand the impulse it's way too late for that. Jim Gordon has been as corrupted by Gotham's acidic skin as every other person in the city and while at least this episode had others and himself calling out his hypocrisy, and for once he made some good tactical decisions, I can't pretend I didn't watch the last three seasons culminating with his macking on the gangster daughter of his old enemy, whom he went to fetch for the express purpose of shutting down Penguin's crap. 

Now, if this is some kind of rebirth thing, where Gordon finally realizes that the only winning move is not to play, that there's no way to get your hands dirty and still keep your soul clean, I will be thrilled. Not only will it give the poor long-suffering actor some new beats to play, it might actually be interesting to watch him become a true Untouchable (hopefully with Harvey at his side.) Because if there's one thing the last four seasons have underlined it's that TRYING TO KINDA SORTA WITH THE CRAZY CRIMINALS DOESN'T WORK. You can see why somebody like Harvey would think they were siding with pragmatism and keeping the troops safe, but it's like watered-down chemo drugs--they slowly poison the person without curing the disease. But you can't go too rigid black/white in the battle either--you end up Tetched in the head and smashing things like the erstwhile Captain.  

So, here's hoping. 

Anyway! Nice to see Selina and Tabs back in the game, even if Babs had to save their bacon again (fantastic read on the "did you order Thai? Good, because I didn't bring any" lines) and that the Sirens are going to become a force doin' it for themselves. The big question, of course, is how much of that is Actual Barbara and how much is R'as swirling around in her head? (I finally realized that her current styling and pale lip is to indicate that she's no longer a regular person, much like Grundy--she's a resurrected vessel.) I hope that whole thing doesn't shoot this trio in its fabulously shod foot.

If Grace is Talia she got one easy assignment. You can see her at the club thinking "this is the easiest push over the cliff EVER." Once again David brings it, showing that Bruce is partying not only to "forget" in a haze of hedonism, but because he's afraid of what he might do if he's not distracting himself. 

The whole warped Ozzy and Harriet vibe at Sophia's was terrific. Her costumes are so out there--anybody but Oz would have picked up on the lavishness of presentation. But per this episode he to got recover a bit of his old menace when he stabbed Deadshot. Which was a pity because that guy was fantastic! How do they have such a terrific string of day players on this show???

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Batman is a weird genre for me I kinda get it but a rich guy running around in a leather suit because his parents got murdered and no one figures it out because he is a rich guy and what rich guy whould do that kinda both intrigues me and unnerves me so I get the two sides of the story. 

Everyone in Gotham has a dark side.

Jim Gordon wants to be a symbol of what the GCPD could and should be but he keeps getting dragged down by his own impulses and self delusion.

Harvey wants to help him but he is in essence an addict who gets engulfed by the darkness that surrounds Gotham like a blanket.

Bruce wants to protect Gotham but he is still an angry child who wants to drown his anger and rage any way he can even at Gotham’s expense. 

Penguin actually wants to be the hero of the story and thinks of himself in that fashion but he needs others to think of him that way too and will go to any and all lengths to get that recognition which leaves him open to manipulation.

Edited by Chaos Theory
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16 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

As Harvey Bullock's No. 1 Fan™, I will state that it does not bother me that Harvey uses "less than legal" methods to catch criminals and that he's more inclined to work with baddies as long as it gets the job done. I would expect Bullock to do no less, because it's established that he's the maverick while his partner, Jim Gordon, is the moralist.

My problem with what the show is doing is fourfold:

  1. The conflict seems to be a way to drive Bullock and Gordon apart, which probably means that Bullock is turning "evil" (as in he'll no longer be seen as someone we should root for) and may even be on the way out of the show's narrative as a result.
  2. This conflict should have occurred in S1, not in S4, where the two characters eventually come to an understanding and figure out how to work together while still maintaining their core principles.
  3. Given everything that's happened so far in the series, it's downright hypocritical of the show to believe it can portray Gordon- as he is now- as some kind of "moral savant" who can claim some kind of high horse over all of his colleagues, Bullock included, especially considering that Bullock has, many times, bent over backwards for Jim when he's gone off the deep end.
  4. It's cheap drama and ruins one of the best dynamics of the show. When it's at its best, Bullock/Gordon is the show's best pairing, as Donal Logue and Ben McKenzie just ooze chemistry. I might even say it's among TV's best pairings- it's up there alongside Morgan/Reid on Criminal Minds. This show should be milking it for all it's worth, which yes does mean there should be drama and conflict, but their relationship should inform it. The show should not clumsily insert things to create drama in the relationship, and it certainly shouldn't think "let's break these two up just to spice things up!". The show already did both with Oswald/Nygma, which really grated my nerves. Doing it to Bullock/Gordon would be a deal-breaker for me.

This show does have a tendency of late to break apart its most interesting pairings.  Last season they did it with Oswald/Ed and Bruce/Selina.

This season they're doing it with Jim/Harvey and evidently Bruce/Alfred will be at odds soon.

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8 hours ago, Kathemy said:

I mean there's no way they're bringing on Tommy Elliot again without doing anything about it. Throwing Hush and Talia at him at the same time? Well then again, it's Gotham. 

Seriously that recast of Tommy is silly. He's what, 25? Damn good looking kid but I mean wtf uhhh...

Yeah my comment-fu isn't the best.

Yeah, Tommy literally aged about 10 years. Maybe Marv got to him before he did Ivy.

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Bruce may have bought that club but it's still going to lose its liquor license due to all the under age drinking! Even if the show is set prior to 1984 (we have no idea when this show is really set), which is when the drinking age for all alcoholic beverages went up to 21 (prior to 1984 eighteen year olds could drink beer), Bruce and his party posse are all under 18.

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15 minutes ago, diebartdie said:

Bruce may have bought that club but it's still going to lose its liquor license due to all the under age drinking! Even if the show is set prior to 1984 (we have no idea when this show is really set), which is when the drinking age for all alcoholic beverages went up to 21 (prior to 1984 eighteen year olds could drink beer), Bruce and his party posse are all under 18.

Not with Penguin in charge and if he buys a license to crime.  Plus everyone in Gotham from top to bottom is on the take that is the whole point.  How hard is it for someone like Bruce to buy off the right people?

Edited by Chaos Theory
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I enjoyed that episode. I figured out that Pyg was pretending to be the cop almost immediately. I was glad that Jim got to be the hero. I am not feeling for Harvey. He is corrupt and deserves everything that he gets. Penguin should have listened to Sophia. I am glad that he didn't.

I love wild and free Bruce. It is about time he starts acting out and being the rich party boy for a little bit. We all know that it won't last long. Alfred is in for a rough parental path.

I want to see Tabitha, Barbara, and Selina start taking down Penguin. They should be running Gotham.

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Eh, I started drinking at bars when I was 16 and nobody was losing any liquor licenses over that in my country... :-D

And that wasn't a magically corrupt place like Gotham, that was just Sweden.

Edited by Kathemy

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On 11/2/2017 at 9:19 PM, HoodlumSheep said:
  • This stuff with jim would work so much better if he didn't do quite as many bad deeds as he's done. I feel like they're trying to retool him back to more how he was in season 1.

 

On 11/2/2017 at 10:42 PM, Sakura12 said:

 I'm glad Penguin mentioned Jim being a dirty cop because they were acting like Gordon was some kind of saint when he usually does whatever he wants to get the job the done including working with bad guys which he did quite often. Even now he's trying to work with Sofia Falcone to stop Penguin. Of course out of the Gotham cops he's the good one, but that's not saying much. 

 

On 11/3/2017 at 0:37 AM, Kostgard said:

“I’m not a dirty cop!” “Except for all the times you are.” Like...seriously. And Jim yelling that the city needs to learn that they can be safe without a gangster...all while he’s working with a gangster to bring down Oswald. It’s good that some of the characters call Jim on his shit and Jim even confesses to some of his shit, but then the narrative tries to tell us Jim is a white knight. It doesn’t all fit together and it doesn’t quite work for me (though overall I was far less annoyed by Jim than I usually am).

 

On 11/3/2017 at 1:24 AM, DR14 said:

Glad to see Jim actually admit to some of his shortcomings in this episode and people calling him out. He was not as annoying as he has been in his non-Bruce scenes.  His roughness with Harvey seems forced though.

 

 

20 hours ago, Danielg342 said:
  1. Given everything that's happened so far in the series, it's downright hypocritical of the show to believe it can portray Gordon- as he is now- as some kind of "moral savant" who can claim some kind of high horse over all of his colleagues, Bullock included, especially considering that Bullock has, many times, bent over backwards for Jim when he's gone off the deep end.

 

12 hours ago, Kostgard said:

This is my issue as well - or rather, the inconsistency between the narrative push that keeps telling us that Jim is the hero and the factors they write in that show it's all far more complicated than that. 

Oswald did lower the crime rate. Yes, he's profiting off of it, but also in his own twisted way he believes he's helping the city and wants to help (it's tied into his desperate need for love and approval. It's why he kept running to the press in this episode and tried to get Sofia to tell him what a good boy he was saving cops' lives) and would probably do it for free if people patted him on the head and told him how great he is.  Yet, despite all this, it is also true that a criminal like Oswald shouldn't be controlling the city like that. And yet...Harvey still has a point. At this point it's better to go with it because there isn't a better alternative. And as Harvey pointed out this episode, despite his criminal record, Oswald is a legitimized figure in the city so this isn't entirely insane. He was elected mayor fair and square a year ago. The GCPD suck ass, Harvey knows it, and  he's just trying to keep  those idiots safe. He doesn't want to step away from Oswald because he was doing a better job that the cops were able to do and he had a point that they shouldn't shove Oswald out without a backup plan to replace his efforts. He may be on the take, but he was already doing what he was currently doing before the cash bonus came in. 

So, there are all these complicating factors, and then there's the biggest one of all - Jim is currently partnering with one criminal in order to bring another criminal down. And HE'S ALWAYS DONE THIS. It's just that usually the criminal he partners with is Oswald. Oswald called him on that this episode. Jim called himself on this. So, they've written it to show that this is all a much more complicated mess than it might appear to be on the surface, and yet the narrative is still giving Jim the big hero push. The tone is telling us that Jim here is right, he's the only one who is righteous and true. But the actual story tells us he's not. He's really not. He's still up to old tricks, just with a different criminal this time. This is the part I find confusing and inconsistent. The show needs Jim to be the hero, but they haven't written him to be the hero. At least not yet. And they should not act like he is until he actually gets there.

I'm hoping it will all blow up in Jim's face (possibly when Sofia's plan comes to fruition). And then Jim will finally figure out that he needs to actually walk the walk and not just look down his nose at everyone else while he's just as corrupt as they are. And then he'll owe Harvey a big fat apology. That's actually what pisses me off the most here - Harvey has stuck by Jim through thick and thin and partially skimmed. Stood by him all through his stupid/illegal dealings. Always has his back. And yet now that Harvey is really hitting the skids, Jim isn't helping his friend. That's just dick behavior (I largely see this whole situation as a poor reflection on Jim and not on Harvey). At least I suspect/hope that Jim will get a wake-up call in regards to Harvey, since both BM and DL have mentioned in interviews that Jim is being a big ol' hypocrite about Harvey. I'm guessing they wouldn't talk about it in interviews unless Jim being a hypocritical dick about Harvey ends up being part of the story (and not just something the viewers see but the show never addresses). So I'm willing to see where they go with it, but they REALLY need to figure out that they can't legitimately sell Jim as the hero until he acts like one.

I feel like I'm Quoting half the thread, but all of these comments feed into something I think has been developing for a long time, even since season 1, regarding Jim.  When he first came into GCPD and was such a boy scout, I feel like there were a lot of comments about how he needed to understand that the world isn't black and while, and that there is a lot of grey he has to work with.  And then Jim has gone dark.  I'm very glad to see him own his own darkness, but I think he has always recognized when he has crossed the line, and he has often hated himself for it, selling his soul little by little to do things that each seem understandable and right at the moment, but in the big picture add up to a lot of evil means for god ends, as it were.  

This show is often portrayed as being Bruce's learning arc, and also Selina's, and sometimes that of the various villains too.  But it's also the story of how Jim Gordon grew into the person he is supposed to be.  I think that he is going through the process of learning where he should draw lines, and how firm those lines have to be, for himself and for Gotham City.  If Jim stayed a boy scout the whole time, there's be endless complaining about hos he was too rigid and too unwilling to adapt to Gotham.  And I think even more dummy comments than he gets now.  Don't get me wrong, he doesn't do everything right, but I think Jim's "dummy" qualities are often the result of his struggle with his conscience versus the practical solutions he keeps so readily seeing and then using.  He doesn't want to be the guy who makes Machiavellian choices that are pragmatic but not ethical--he wants to be the good guy, the person that he can look into the mirror without flinching away from.  And I think this show is about how he gets there, through a dark and winding road.

22 hours ago, doram said:

The adaptation should stand on its own. 

A thousand times yes!

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Side note, Bruce didn't recognize Grace but for some unfathomable reason he seemed to recognize Tommy... :D :d .p ;D

The logic!

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Besides Harvey & Jim are there any veterans left on GCPD? So many have been killed or quit or gone bad...GCPD is mostly a bunch of inexperienced dimwits that are "easily swayed"....

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Pyg is a relatively new baddie, only been around for about a decade in the comics but he's been in the Arkham games and Beware The Batman animated show. He's creepy as hell.

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On 11/4/2017 at 2:43 PM, Ailianna said:

I feel like I'm Quoting half the thread, but all of these comments feed into something I think has been developing for a long time, even since season 1, regarding Jim.  When he first came into GCPD and was such a boy scout, I feel like there were a lot of comments about how he needed to understand that the world isn't black and while, and that there is a lot of grey he has to work with.  And then Jim has gone dark.  I'm very glad to see him own his own darkness, but I think he has always recognized when he has crossed the line, and he has often hated himself for it, selling his soul little by little to do things that each seem understandable and right at the moment, but in the big picture add up to a lot of evil means for god ends, as it were.  

This show is often portrayed as being Bruce's learning arc, and also Selina's, and sometimes that of the various villains too.  But it's also the story of how Jim Gordon grew into the person he is supposed to be.  I think that he is going through the process of learning where he should draw lines, and how firm those lines have to be, for himself and for Gotham City.  If Jim stayed a boy scout the whole time, there's be endless complaining about hos he was too rigid and too unwilling to adapt to Gotham.  And I think even more dummy comments than he gets now.  Don't get me wrong, he doesn't do everything right, but I think Jim's "dummy" qualities are often the result of his struggle with his conscience versus the practical solutions he keeps so readily seeing and then using.  He doesn't want to be the guy who makes Machiavellian choices that are pragmatic but not ethical--he wants to be the good guy, the person that he can look into the mirror without flinching away from.  And I think this show is about how he gets there, through a dark and winding road.

ITA. Yes, Jim has crossed the lines and has hated himself for it, but he has usually done it when he feels desperate and regrets it almost immediately. His desperation is the result of being one, if not the only, honest cop in that city. It isn't surprising that he occasionally goes rogue or allies with one criminal to catch another. However, no way is Jim as corrupt like Harvey and the rest of GCPD.

Edited by SimoneS
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I liked Season 1 Jim Gordon, the eagle scout and war hero.  Though by necessity a one-dimensional character, I thought he was well cast and would be a good Commissioner Gordon going forward.  I've enjoyed his character arc less with each subsequent season, especially the revolving door of his pointless romances with tragic consequences.  I would welcome season 1 Jim Gordon back to my TV now, and I'd hope for the character to be a bit less cardboard-y as a consequence of the previous seasons.

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On 11/4/2017 at 11:43 AM, Ailianna said:

I feel like I'm Quoting half the thread, but all of these comments feed into something I think has been developing for a long time, even since season 1, regarding Jim.  When he first came into GCPD and was such a boy scout, I feel like there were a lot of comments about how he needed to understand that the world isn't black and while, and that there is a lot of grey he has to work with.  And then Jim has gone dark.  I'm very glad to see him own his own darkness, but I think he has always recognized when he has crossed the line, and he has often hated himself for it, selling his soul little by little to do things that each seem understandable and right at the moment, but in the big picture add up to a lot of evil means for god ends, as it were.  

This show is often portrayed as being Bruce's learning arc, and also Selina's, and sometimes that of the various villains too.  But it's also the story of how Jim Gordon grew into the person he is supposed to be.  I think that he is going through the process of learning where he should draw lines, and how firm those lines have to be, for himself and for Gotham City.  If Jim stayed a boy scout the whole time, there's be endless complaining about hos he was too rigid and too unwilling to adapt to Gotham.  And I think even more dummy comments than he gets now.  Don't get me wrong, he doesn't do everything right, but I think Jim's "dummy" qualities are often the result of his struggle with his conscience versus the practical solutions he keeps so readily seeing and then using.  He doesn't want to be the guy who makes Machiavellian choices that are pragmatic but not ethical--he wants to be the good guy, the person that he can look into the mirror without flinching away from.  And I think this show is about how he gets there, through a dark and winding road.

 

 

I do agree that this is what they are doing, and I don't mind Jim going dark while he walks his path. The thing that bothers me is the way he stomps around and yells about corruption when he is equally guilty, and the way the show presents him - telling us, "Look at the righteous hero" when he really isn't. After his conversation with Pyg with the ambulance where he acknowledged the shady shit he's done, I wish he had a moment where he tried to level with Harvey, all, "Look, we've both made mistakes. But this shit needs to stop and we both need to do it." Instead it was more of Jim looking down his nose at Harvey. And it's hard to buy him as the guy trying to get the GDPD back online when in the background he's got this deal with Sofia going on (and again - if/when she topples Oswald, she isn't going to just go back home. She's going to run the criminal underworld in the Falcone name. And she will no doubt expect Jim to turn a blind eye to her crimes. She isn't doing this out of the kindness of her heart. Jim is going to have to pay up once she's won). It would be one thing if they were a bit more honest about Jim's struggle with breaking bad, but while that goes on in the script, the overall tone is still "Look at the amazing hero! " and the dissonance there is annoying (Gotham's official twitter even sent out something about Jim being the only "honest" man in Gotham, which...nope. Not quite, guys). 

Heh - I'm listening to "Gotham TV Podcast" in the background while typing this and they were just reading listener mail where the listener asked "Why is Jim giving Harvey crap for breaking Jim's moral code when he breaks it himself all the time?" And the hosts are all, "Yeah, Jim is very much a 'do as I say, not as I do' kinda guy." And that's why I have a hard time buying Jim as the hero.

And I still maintain that Jim's a bonehead a good chunk of the time. And I've been greatly amused when the show acknowledges that in meta moments. 

 

Shifting gears slightly, I think part of the issue for me with the latest string of episodes is we need to see more of Jim and Sofia and what's going on there. We've seen her playing Oswald like a fiddle (just in one scene she reverse psychology'd him into a dumb decision by doing the whole "My dad would never do that" thing because she knows that makes him double-down on his original plan - a plan bound to fail and weaken his position. And I think we're seeing the beginning of her withholding her love and approval after showering him with it - momma giveth, momma taketh away. That will make him desperate to get it back and will no doubt lead to more bad decisions). I don't have a full gripe on what she's doing with him. I mean, in the previous episode when she was at her house with Oswald and was all, "Yes, we've been seen in public around town, but now NO ONE IS HERE WATCHING US so you can totally trust that I'm being sincere" and we see that Jim is hiding around the corner. Was she trying to tip Jim off that she knew he was there? If so, she didn't give that away when he stepped into the room and she was all, "Oh, Jim! When did you get here?" and Jim didn't see to be all, "Oh, come on. You knew I was here." This half of her plan is still a mystery and they need to show us some of it.

 

Side note, Bruce didn't recognize Grace but for some unfathomable reason he seemed to recognize Tommy... :D :d .p ;D

The logic!

I got the impression that Grace was just a girl from his class - probably someone he never hung out with, but she knew who he was, what with the whole "billionaire orphan" thing. He had a confrontation with Tommy, so he stood out in his memory.

Edited by Kostgard
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I'm not against a redemption storyline for Jim, and I would agree that "Jim learning the ropes" is a viable story for the character through the course of this series.

What bugs me is that the show is using this storyline to push the idea that Jim is "the good guy" and Harvey is "the bad guy" when I don't think the show has done enough to establish either standard.

Like many other storylines this show has done, the writers just immediately jumped into this storyline without thinking if it'll make sense or even if it jibes with what they've done before, and the result is a haphazard mishmash that's really ruining everything I had enjoyed about this show.

I get it- whether or not it's "good" for Harvey to be corrupt is subjective. Having said that, I'm not sure the show is recognizing why Harvey and the GCPD are corrupt in the first place- that they're doing it not because they want to do it but because they had to.

More to the point, Harvey has always hated that he had to sell his soul to continue living his life, and I believe his despair of having to do this while also realizing he had no other choice has consumed him.

He's a textbook case of depression, and it's one that I can relate to on so many levels. I mean, I've never done anything illegal (aside from jaywalking and stealing a pen from a restaurant), but I know what it's like to want things to be different yet feel helpless in being able to achieve that.

So for the show to decide that Harvey no longer deserves our sympathy is really a slap in the face to me and all others who've enjoyed the character. I won't go into a soliloquy into how "depression is real and I'm grateful that the show is acknowledging that" but I will say it's completely and totally unsettling that the show has spent so much time creating a character like Bullock who has nuances and depth and crafting someone who's so relatable only to decide none of that matters.

Harvey Bullock was there as a reminder that "not everyone who's 'bad' is necessarily a bad person themselves", while Jim Gordon is there to remind us that "to do good, sometimes you have to be bad". Neither characterization should be viewed negatively, in my opinion, because both are "real", because none of us are perfect.

Truth be told, Bullock and Gordon were the last two characters who still had their nuances, and for the show to wipe those away for some cheap drama is just cheap all in itself.

Don't build up these characters with all kinds of depth and nuance if you're going to decide later that it just won't matter. That's the biggest crime the show can commit, and I'm not sure it can ever recover from it.

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2 hours ago, Kostgard said:

I got the impression that Grace was just a girl from his class - probably someone he never hung out with, but she knew who he was, what with the whole "billionaire orphan" thing. He had a confrontation with Tommy, so he stood out in his memory.

Just thought it was funny since Grace, well, looked like she could possibly be his age, while Tommy was twice as big with a different face. :-D

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3 hours ago, Kathemy said:

Good point in the review about despite being a moron and a hypocrite, Jim is a good fighter. True that. I will absolutely give him credit for that one.

Also good point about them making Harvey and Oswald kinda stupid in order to make the plot move forward. I think I can chalk up Harvey's actions to his desperate need for the extra cash Oswald provides (though they didn't really explain why he's up to his eyeballs in debt, apparently. Gambling habit? Bad investments? Ex-wife bleeding him dry? What?). As for Oswald, I'm still really hoping that somewhere in the back of his mind he's aware of what Sofia is up to, but he's so desperate for affection/acceptance that he's ignoring that little voice in his head for the time-being. I've noticed that they've made a point to show him stress-eating since she's shown up. The first incident made sense since she had just stood him up for their lunch date and he was suspicious about what she was really up to (so he dove into a bucket of chicken). But in this episode, things largely seemed fine between them. yet he was still chomping away at the chocolates (I think) from the candy dish beside his chair. Even before she lead him down the path to dumb decisions by pulling the "My dad would never do that" move on him. I also noticed the candy dish was practically empty - just a decision from the props department to put one or two chocolates in there, or are we to assume that Oswald drained the dish while he was sitting there?

Basically, I'm kinda buying it for now, but they've got further explaining to do.

Edited by Kostgard
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One thing I like about your reviews Kathemy is how you never fail to give David Mazouz his due. I read elsewhere on how people think he's a shitty actor, and I wonder where the hell their brain cells have gone.

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52 minutes ago, Miss Dee said:

One thing I like about your reviews Kathemy is how you never fail to give David Mazouz his due. I read elsewhere on how people think he's a shitty actor, and I wonder where the hell their brain cells have gone.

They're haters, they don't need brain cells.

People a certain age, think 20 to 25, often have a desperate need to take a dump on teenagers in order to distance themselves and try to look "mature", never realizing how petty that makes them. They could never discuss a show like 'Girl Meets World' - a hilarious unintended satire of Moral Majority dogma while it was airing - as that's targeted at below their age group. I'm old enough where I don't feel threatened to my adulthood giving a prodigy some credit.

Side note is I think this is why I have so many haters at reddit, that, and being an arrogant bastard. And thank you. :-)

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