S02.E05: Brothers

[debraran]

7 hours ago, possibilities said:

Adopted children are not universally rejected or resented by other kids in the family, and Kevin and Randall were brought home at the same time, as newborns. Also, Randall is not disruptive and hellacious to live with. Siblings often have conflicts, whether they are blood relatives or not. I think if they go down the road of "Kevin resents Randall because he's 'different'" I will consider it to be horrible writing and a cheap and insulting choice. I really hope that's not where this is headed.

I would like to see more Randall-Kate scenes, in any era.

Fat people can have sex. Also, there are lots of ways to have sex. I'm more irritated by the implication that couples who are not TRYING to have children would be DELIGHTED to discover a pregnancy. I get that contraception fails sometimes, but we have not been led to believe Kate and Toby have been trying to conceive.

I would grab something that I thought was dangerous , but I guess I don't think of a shrimp tail as being dangerous. Is that really something someone would choke on? I mean, she'd try to chew it, and it would be unpleasant, but it's not poisonous or obviously going to choke her. If she was about to step into traffic, or drink bleach, sure. But she was nibbling slowly and Randall had plenty of time to say something, plus it wasn't that big of a hazard; at least that's how it looked to me.

I think the actress who plays Deja is great. But I was surprised, even with a crush, that she wasn't freaked out by Kevin grabbing food off her plate.

I wish we'd seen the aftermath of Deja chopping off her hair. How did Beth and Randall handle that? Clearly she's had it re-cut and shaped since then, but did they talk with her, what did that look like, did they take her somewhere, did one of them do it? How did the other kids react? I wish this show didn't gloss over so many beats and drop the ball on follow up so often.

I agree with all your points. Please don't make this a black/white thing with Randall They were brought up together and he wasn't like Deja coming in new. We all know bio siblings that wouldn't be friends or close if not related and some that bond very much at some point in life, don't make it about race. I've also known families that adopted children of different races and if anything, the other children were protective, so it's not a "It has to be this way" type of thing. And why is Kate so absent from Randall's life? She seems so bound to Kevin which is fine, but Randall and his family don't seem to be in her thought process.

Shrimp isn't a dangerous food for a 12 year old.  She'd feel the tough skin the way I did many years ago and make a funny face or a "That part is not edible" from Randall would have been fine. Grabbing a 12 year old like that was more his embarrassment he would have felt projected on her.  Not really a big deal. If she had started to slip on something outside and he grabbed her and she reacted funny, that's fine, she could say she doesn't like grabbing or fast movements in the car after a silence and it wasn't age inappropriate.

I also wonder if they will have a flashback of the hair incident, more for the conversation with Beth about telling Randall everything that is "private" to them. She said it's been a month since she was there but at this point, they don't flashback really in the same era much.  That is a pretty important conversation though and an understanding they both need to discuss. I thought that bonding with Beth was very well done.

The producers talk about so much film ending up on the floor because they film a lot and then have to edit. Toby's scene is the restaurant could have went 30 minutes. That seems overkill even for having more to edit. The scene with Jack's dad was was also edited and had him say almost nothing. I could almost feel that one, it just seemed like he should have uttered something more than , "Is that my granddaughter" and Rebecca grabbing her to leave. Not sure how I feel about that either.

Edited October 28, 2017 by debraran

[maddie965]

Maybe I should go to the Unpopular opinions tread, but I feel like posting this here.

- I love this show as much as I did on Season 1. It is more disjointed and it has some problems, but it doesn't affect my love. Those characters are like family now. I want to see them and know what they're doing, and they never fail to touch me in some way.

- I love Kate with all my heart. I want to hug her and be her friend forever. I was immensely happy when we found out she was pregnant. I totally understand her hesitation to be happy or to tell others. I totally understand her reaction to Rebecca when she came to see her sing. I totally understand the phase she's going through right now. She's fighting with some huge inner demons. Not easy at all. Wish the authors would give her a proper job and a friend to confide into. Maybe Madison will solve that last part.

- I cried when Toby did his scene on the cafe. Yes, it was completely over the top, but so were the emotions he was feeling. Totally justified to go crazy. I was so happy for him and for Kate (for allowing that to happen), I burst into tears. I wanna cry right now just thinking about it. I bet Kate never thought she would get pregnant. I bet Toby never thought he would have a kid with a woman he loves. Such a wonderful moment for the both of them.

- I love every time there's a sex scene between Toby and Kate. Because yes, I do believe there's HUGE prejudice about fat people being able to do normal things that everyone does. I believe most people find the idea of fat people having sex gross, or undesirable, or not acceptable. How many scenes of fat people having sex, or even making out, have you seen in your life? Now compare it with the number of times you've seen thin couples having sex? Yes, that. So if the authors want to make a point there, so be it. Maybe it will make people aware that yes, fat people are just like them - only fatter..

- I love Deja. I wish someone would care about her. Really care about her, and not about some fantasy of being a foster parent.

The only thing that really bothers me about this season is how they are making me hate Randall. I used to love him, but now I can't stand him. I hate that they are using the adopting story to compare Randall's childhood and adulthood. Guess what? This is not about Randall. If the authors want to tell an adoption story, they should do that. And adoption stories are not about a character trying to feel good because he lost his job and his dad. Adoption stories are about the children that are being adopted. Randall should understand that the only thing that matters AT ALL is how Deja is feeling, and what he can do to make it better. If the best thing for her is  for him to be quiet and let Beth do the work, that's exactly what he should do. Stay quiet. Stay away. Wait for her to adapt. Wait for her to come to him. And if she doesn't, it's ok too. It's not about him connecting with a foster dad fantasy. It's about her having a chance at LIFE.

Edited October 28, 2017 by maddie965

[Biggie B]

I've got no problem with folks having a robust and hearty sex life no matter what their size. What I did have a problem with was Toby assuming Kate wanted to have sex IN HIS OFFICE ON HIS DESK while he was at work. Really? Just stop with that. Even if he meant it as a joke - which I don't think he did - it came off as scuzzy to me.  But, it is in character with Toby, and it's one of many reasons why I find him cringeworthy. I realize I'm stuck with him as a character, especially now that he and Kate are having a child, but I just can't like him, so I just endure his scenes.

[laurakaye]

1 hour ago, Biggie B said:

I've got no problem with folks having a robust and hearty sex life no matter what their size. What I did have a problem with was Toby assuming Kate wanted to have sex IN HIS OFFICE ON HIS DESK while he was at work. Really? Just stop with that. Even if he meant it as a joke - which I don't think he did - it came off as scuzzy to me.  But, it is in character with Toby, and it's one of many reasons why I find him cringeworthy. I realize I'm stuck with him as a character, especially now that he and Kate are having a child, but I just can't like him, so I just endure his scenes.

And my first thought was - holy crap, what did he just fling off his desk that made the horrible crashing sounds, and wouldn't his co-workers hear it since they were basically right outside the door?  Yet another "Toby Grand Gesture" comes across as skeevy rather than romantic.  There should be a drinking game for this.

[Clanstarling]

36 minutes ago, laurakaye said:

And my first thought was - holy crap, what did he just fling off his desk that made the horrible crashing sounds, and wouldn't his co-workers hear it since they were basically right outside the door?  Yet another "Toby Grand Gesture" comes across as skeevy rather than romantic.  There should be a drinking game for this.

While the IT person in me cringed at the tech he swept off and the Randall in me tsk-tsked at the mess. And the me in me just finds office sex off-putting in general for oh so many reasons, and did when I was young and nimble.

I actually like Toby, and even the coffee shop grand gesture (except for the mess with the water), but I didn't like this at all.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Clanstarling

[Guest]

What's weirdest to me is that Kate's known about this pregnancy for at least a month, and she chooses a surprise visit at work to finally tell Toby?  So I think the writers did that to (1) show that Toby does indeed work, finally and (2) for the cringeworthy desk-clearing scene.  

So what is the count at for inappropriate sex or proposed sex locales for these two?  We've got the desktop, some janitor's closet, the hospital bed, Randall's spare room... 

[Paloma]

7 hours ago, debraran said:

Please don't make this a black/white thing with Randall They were brought up together and he wasn't like Deja coming in new. We all know bio siblings that wouldn't be friends or close if not related and some that bond very much at some point in life, don't make it about race.

Yup, my brother and I (bio white siblings) have nothing in common and would have nothing to do with each other if I wasn't friends with his wife and my husband didn't go to football games with him. But I was one who wondered if race might be a factor--not directly (i.e., not because Kevin was racist) but as part of normal sibling resentment or jealousy of his brother getting more attention and protectiveness from the parents, if Kevin perceived that the attention and protectiveness  were at least partly due to his brother being black. As a child, Kevin may have recognized that Randall was the target of discrimination and realized that was wrong, and that recognition may have made Kevin feel guilty about his natural resentment/jealousy of Randall but still not know what to do with those feelings. Kevin might have felt the same resentment/jealousy if Randall got more attention due to being smart or for other non-race-related reasons, but the race factor makes it more complicated. Children can't help what they feel, even if they know what they feel is wrong! (Actually, that is mostly true for adults also.)

6 hours ago, maddie965 said:

The only thing that really bothers me about this season is how they are making me hate Randall. I used to love him, but now I can't stand him. I hate that they are using the adopting story to compare Randall's childhood and adulthood. Guess what? This is not about Randall. If the authors want to tell an adoption story, they should do that. And adoption stories are not about a character trying to feel good because he lost his job and his dad. Adoption stories are about the children that are being adopted. Randall should understand that the only thing that matters AT ALL is how Deja is feeling, and what he can do to make it better. If the best thing for her is  for him to be quiet and let Beth do the work, that's exactly what he should do. Stay quiet. Stay away. Wait for her to adapt. Wait for her to come to him. And if she doesn't, it's ok too. It's not about him connecting with a foster dad fantasy. It's about her having a chance at LIFE.

Well said, and it really bothers me, too. The whole adoption/foster child story has been about what he wants and not what his wife, biological children, and now foster child want. Maybe at some level he had good intentions that were not just all about him, but he (and the writers) lost me when he essentially bullied Beth into going along with adoption when she clearly thought it was a bad idea. I did not find it realistic that she eventually "came around" and suggested adopting or fostering an older and possibly troubled child.

[kili]

Quote

 I find him creepy and controlling.  Kate should get as far away from him as possible.

Kate was the controlling one this time. She was ordering him not to talk about his potential future child or even do a happy dance.

I find bachelor auctions creepy.

Randall keeps trying to tell little anecdotes to relate to Deja, but he doesn't seem to realize that his life experiences are light years away from Deja's. He keeps totally missing what is going on in her head. When he was rattling on about his first day at private school, she clearly wasn't even overwhelmed by the gala. She was just drinking it all in and looking for Kevin. Randall needs to be quiet and learn to listen. And he needs to stop staring at her. Kevin got further with her because he treats her like a normal person.

Randall writes a note to himself not to bug Kevin to let him use his gameboy? When did he write that? The entire first scene he was trying to grab it away from Kevin and as Kevin kept protesting he'd only just gotten it. This is the second time we've been shown a scene of young Randall trying to take away a new toy from Kevin (first time it was the Rubik's cube) and the parents not saying anything. Do the writers want us to see this pattern? Of course, I was left wondering how Kevin had just gotten an expensive toy like a Gameboy. If they were going camping, it probably wasn't for his birthday or Christmas.

When Randall and Jack were talking, the tent flapped open and Kevin didn't look like he was in there (probably because the young actor was not). I was beginning to wonder if he'd run off and nobody noticed. 

I suspect that Jack and Nicky never got to go fishing.

I kind of like Madison. Kate could use a friend. 

[jhlipton]

On 10/24/2017 at 7:12 PM, chocolatine said:

Would someone with poor eyesight have even been allowed into combat?

At the height of the Vietnam War, the Army was grinding through soldiers at a ridiculous rate and grabbing any warm-bodied male they could (I became eligible the year they ended college deferments -- I was faced with going to Nam, jail or Canada; but lucked out with a 4F deferment).  So yes, someone who could see at all would have been drafted.

On 10/26/2017 at 1:24 PM, GenevieveS said:

Honestly, as a former foster parent, this storyline is driving me nuts. Because Randall and Beth should have had training

Randall said that he "had been reading blogs".  I don't know which ones he'd been reading because most of Deja's attitude and actions seemed spot-on for someone who had been in a lot of foster homes -- especially if they were interspersed with Mommy being home.

[fountain]

On 2017-10-27 at 7:38 PM, NYCFree said:

Not true from personal experience. Not going on the TMI path.

 

On  a different vein, I would totally have grabbed my kid's hand if he were about to put something dangerous in his mouth, or touch something that could hurt him.  I m surprised that so many said they would quickly say something to their child.  Perhaps my brain works more slowly than others, I just don't think I could get from "DANGER" to , "oh she won't choke, I'll just alert her that it's not meant to be eaten," within that fraction of a second between my mind perceiving a danger, to my hand reaching out to stop the action.

But you can eat the tails, people do it all the time, I eat them on small shrimp as it is awkward to take them off. It isn’t really a DANGER situation, I doubt a teenager would choke.  I personally might just say “they are really crunchy, lots of people don’t eat them”.  I wouldn’t touch someone I am only just getting to know.

[biakbiak]

1 hour ago, fountain said:

But you can eat the tails, people do it all the time, I eat them on small shrimp as it is awkward to take them off. It isn’t really a DANGER situation, I doubt a teenager would choke.  I personally might just say “they are really crunchy, lots of people don’t eat them”.  I wouldn’t touch someone I am only just getting to know.

Seriously or just say "Oh here is how you peel back the shell to get the last bits!" He smacked a decent amount of edible shrimp out of her hand!

[JennyMominFL]

On 10/25/2017 at 3:06 PM, JudyObscure said:

This.  I don't think anyone mentioned it but she was so lucky to have a man so thrilled with the coming baby, I hated the way she shut him down as if his emotions for his child meant nothing compared to her feelings.

Glasses: My brother was drafted in 1967 and sent  right back home after his eye test.   I guess even the Army has a limit.  There are huge variations in how well people can see without their glasses.  The military doesn't want someone out there who would immediately become helpless the minute they lost their glasses in the jungle.  My eyes are like my bothers only not as bad, but if I knock my glasses off the nightstand my husband has to come and find them for me.

SO  does mine, but they got me into the Marines. As long as they can be corrected to 20/20 with  glasses you are good to go. Got presented with BC glasses when I got to boot camp. They were thick black glasses that were jokingly called BC glasses, Birth Control Glasses, because no man will come near you  while you are wearing them.

[Clanstarling]

40 minutes ago, JennyMominFL said:

SO  does mine, but they got me into the Marines. As long as they can be corrected to 20/20 with  glasses you are good to go. Got presented with BC glasses when I got to boot camp. They were thick black glasses that were jokingly called BC glasses, Birth Control Glasses, because no man will come near you  while you are wearing them.

Just watched an episode of the Vietnam documentary. I thought of this discussion when I noticed how many soldiers had the same kinds of glasses.

[JennyMominFL]

41 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Just watched an episode of the Vietnam documentary. I thought of this discussion when I noticed how many soldiers had the same kinds of glasses.

They are ugly but they are pretty unbreakable, which is kind of the point. And Contact Lenses were not allowed in basic training.

[Clanstarling]

45 minutes ago, JennyMominFL said:

They are ugly but they are pretty unbreakable, which is kind of the point. And Contact Lenses were not allowed in basic training.

Indeed. My Dad was military, and those are the glasses he wore. My brother too, when he enlisted.

[bettername2come]

I liked it. The thing about young Kevin in that scene where he started yelling back at his dad that he didn't know why he treated Randall the way that he did, was that he really doesn't understand why he's treating Randall so harshly. I think he doesn't understand how he's resentful of the preferential treatment that Randall sometimes gets and is acting out.

I kind of want Kate and Madison to become friends now. They had a nice moment, they're both annoying in different ways and they could both use some friends and perspective. 

[dcubed]

On 10/25/2017 at 7:49 AM, PRgal said:

On Madison:  Why is she in OA?  She's not even what some people in my circle would call "Asian fat" (i.e. anything above a size 6 or 8 - if you're under 5'6").  

Addiction is addiction and needs support.  This is like telling someone with 20 years of sobriety that they shouldn’t attend AA anymore because they don’t get drunk anymore.  

[biakbiak]

1 hour ago, dcubed said:

Addiction is addiction and needs support.  This is like telling someone with 20 years of sobriety that they shouldn’t attend AA anymore because they don’t get drunk anymore.  

But she isn't an OA who got thinner, she has body dismorphia which isn't an addiction. There are support groups that fit her better. Someone who has been sober for 20 years is still an alcoholic and struggling with the somw of the same issues. To me the comparison would more be a gambling addict shouldn't go to an AA meeting because their issues aren't the same and should go to GA or another support group for gamblers.

[debraran]

I was surprised to read this on an OA site. I have to admit I thought it was for people who were heavy but it covers a lot of issues. Some larger areas another site said, have sub meetings for different types of weight issues, like bulimia, etc.  I just don't understand why the lame meeting facilitator just said " Anyone else have something to share" or something like that? No one should feel abused, it's there job to keep things moving and calm.

What is OA?

Who belongs to OA?

In Overeaters Anonymous, you’ll find members who are extremely overweight, even morbidly obese; moderately overweight; average weight; underweight; still maintaining periodic control over their eating behavior; or totally unable to control their compulsive eating. OA members experience many different patterns of food behaviors. These “symptoms” are as varied as our membership. Among them are:

eating binges or grazing

preoccupation with reducing diets

starving

laxative or diuretic abuse

excessive exercise

inducing vomiting after eating

chewing and spitting out food

use of diet pills, shots and other medical interventions to control weight

inability to stop eating certain foods after taking the first bite

fantasies about food

vulnerability to quick-weight-loss schemes

constant preoccupation with food

using food as a reward or comfort

Edited October 30, 2017 by debraran

[PRgal]

9 hours ago, dcubed said:

Addiction is addiction and needs support.  This is like telling someone with 20 years of sobriety that they shouldn’t attend AA anymore because they don’t get drunk anymore.  

Shouldn't she be in a different group - one where people have been on the road to recovery longer?

[Guest]

We don't know the rules of her group, and she is apparently allowed in it because she's in it and has been in it for some time.  So I feel like it's on Kate to deal with it or find a new group that she likes better.  

Also, I can envision her being a past overeater who is now thin but also has body dysmorphia now.  That's pretty common. 

I've been a WW lifetime member for 12 years or so and there are plenty of thin people who still go and still work the program to maintain their weight.  What keeps a lot of them doing it is fear of going back to who they were.  The WW leader I've had throughout isn't much bigger than Madison.  I think she's been at her goal weight for like 27 years but she keeps doing the program to maintain.  So she's right in there with the obese people talking about the struggle of Halloween, dinner parties, etc.  If anything, her opinions matter more to me, not less. 

I think Madison might possibly be supposed to have never been heavy, though, and that's just Kate's problem to deal with sharing the spotlight with someone she thinks must be perfect because the scale reading is ideal.  So it illustrates Kate thinking if she solves her weight issue, her life will be perfect.  And it's supposed to be funny, I think.  And it is, if you've ever sat in a support group or listened to thin people decry their weight issues, which I think we all have.  

[biakbiak]

1 hour ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

We don't know the rules of her group, and she is apparently allowed in it because she's in it and has been in it for some time.  So I feel like it's on Kate to deal with it or find a new group that she likes better.  

Oh yes whether or not Madison is in an appropriate group or not for me is separate from Kate's abhorrent behavior in the group.

[ShadowFacts]

3 hours ago, PRgal said:

Shouldn't she be in a different group - one where people have been on the road to recovery longer?

I'm inclined to think maybe Kate should also be in a different group.  She's been in this one for a year now and from what little they've chosen to show us, she mostly is reactive in a negative way.  Maybe now that she's pregnant she will (one hopes) be on a medically supervised program that would be comprehensive.  We don't know if she is already, the last we saw she was leaving Horse Dick's camp, apparently also leaving behind the idea of surgery. 

[ClareWalks]

I found it interesting that Kate was so quick to say that Madison has "no problems" because she is thin, but Madison thinks (and has a point) that Kate and Toby meeting at group and having this amazing relationship are similarly being rubbed in HER face. It is bizarre that Kate and Toby seem to get nothing out of the support group, and either roll their eyes at each other or, in Kate's case, come out screaming at a thinner woman that she has no problems and shouldn't complain.

That said, I found it odd that Madison was like, "so I vape now." Huh? Are you saying it is a bad thing that you ran away from food and ran into a vaporizer? She didn't seem like she felt stupid about it, or was asking for advice to not replace one vice with another. She may have some issues with trying too hard to please potential love interests.

[dcubed]

On 10/30/2017 at 8:44 AM, PRgal said:

Shouldn't she be in a different group - one where people have been on the road to recovery longer?

No, I don't think so.  I don't think she is on the road to recovery based upon her behavior.  She is obsession, be it body dysmorphia, or bulimia/anorexia; she clearly has issues related to food and she needs help.  Part of the beauty of a recovery program is the knowledge one gains from others and the increase in empathy that one gain for others.  Not everyone is the same. 

I'm a recovering alcoholic with more than 8 years of sobriety.  I cannot relate to everyone in the room of AA.  I never got a DUI, my marriage didn't end and I didn't end up homeless.  Other people listening to me can't relate  to me crying about my losses because to them, I got through my addiction fairly unscathed.  There's a line in AA, "Take what you want and leave the rest."  I need to hear the stories of the person walking through the door of AA the first time because they remind me of where I've been.  I need to hear the stories of a person with 25 years sobriety to provide promise for where I'll be. 

If Kate listens carefully, she will find things in what Madison says that she can relate to and it may be eye-opening for her.  But she thinks that because Madison isn't her size, there is no value in what she has to share.  With that attitude, Kate will struggle to get better because she's too busy taking everyone else's inventory instead of taking her own. 

 

On 10/30/2017 at 0:40 AM, biakbiak said:

But she isn't an OA who got thinner, she has body dismorphia which isn't an addiction. There are support groups that fit her better. Someone who has been sober for 20 years is still an alcoholic and struggling with the somw of the same issues. To me the comparison would more be a gambling addict shouldn't go to an AA meeting because their issues aren't the same and should go to GA or another support group for gamblers.

We don't know if she is an OA who got thinner.  She has body dysmorphia now but that doesn't mean she has never been overweight or that she doesn't struggle with bulimia or anorexia and that anxiety is now exhibited in her body dysmorphia.  We've seen she's clearly obsessed with food.  OA is pretty open about who can or cannot go to their meetings.  Madison clearly exhibits the "constant preoccupation with food". 

 

On 10/25/2017 at 8:37 PM, candall said:

As I read all the posts about the OA meeting, I had to laugh because it occurs to me that between myself and my friends, I know a LOT about support groups--AA, NA, OA, ACA, WW.  (No gamblers, so far.)  The trick is to find the group with people who are roughly in the same boat as you. 

I'm sorry but that's just not true.  The trick is to go with your ears and eyes open and take something from what everyone says because in the end, everyone has value and everyone has a common struggle, in this case food.  If you want to be around people just like you, you won't be successful (see the group of anorexics that still have such a visceral reaction to someone overweight - that's not progress imho).  

Kate needs to be called out on her behavior and if it continues, she needs to be asked to leave.  She is hindering the success of the group.   

 

On 10/25/2017 at 10:54 PM, Dreamboat Annie said:

No, her behavior is not unacceptable.  It's not only acceptable, it's welcomed.  That's what support groups are for.  You can erupt, you can erupt big time, any time.  You can let loose.  It's understood.  The leader of the group did step in, and asked if anyone else had anything they wanted to say.  Anyone can and should if they want, respond.  There are alternatives to support groups should anyone wish for others to not be there.  One on one counselling, one on one therapy.  There are many affordable alternatives.  Yes, it's called a support group for a reason.  Anyone joining a support group knows that other troubled souls will be there and that it's not a private session, far from it. 

I have never experienced that in any support group I've attended (and I've attended a few).  Support groups are supposed to provide safety and eruptions at others is not safe.  You want to have a breakdown about you?  Sure.  About others?  No way.  As you said, it's called a support group, support being the operative word.  

[Blakeston]

I think it's a matter of finding the right group. There are groups specifically for people with anorexia, and it wouldn't be right for someone like Kate to attend one. She'd be intruding.

We don't know anything about the rules of the group on the show. If it's meant for anyone with food and/or body issues, then sure, Madison absolutely belongs there. If it's specifically a group for people with a medical need to lose weight, then Kate is right that Madison shouldn't be there. (Although Kate obviously isn't expressing her objections appropriately.)

If I were Madison, I'd never stick around a group like that, where everyone's situation is so different from mine, and there's a general undercurrent of hostility towards me. The fact that she's still around - when there are so many other groups in LA with people she could relate to better - makes me think that she's there because a) she wants to pick up weight loss tips, and/or b) she enjoys the feeling of being several hundred pounds lighter than the people around her. Neither of those are good reasons for her to be there. But even if that's the case, it still doesn't justify Kate's treatment of her.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Blakeston said:

We don't know anything about the rules of the group on the show.

I think the fact that Madison has been a welcome member (by the moderator, at least) for this whole time means she's allowed to be there.  

Groups like this change week to week.  Madison might've been the 300 lb. woman there two years ago.  Should she have to move now, after this leader and group led her to success?  If she moves now, what if another thin woman joins next week?  Maybe that other thin woman would appreciate Madison being there.  I think you just have to go to the group you're allowed in, that you want to go to.  I wouldn't go with Kate there sneering and eye rolling, either, though.  But then again the people with those attitudes are usually the ones who eliminate themselves quickly.  

And I do see some obnoxious, thin people who haunt the weight loss forums and post endless pics of their flat abs and seem to revel in being the successful one in the room.  It makes me think they're not usually in that position.  Maybe that is part of Madison's motivation.   She seems more needy in the 'my food/body issues freak me out' way than an 'I like to feel superior' one.  

[biakbiak]

I just find Madison in the group as an indication that they wanted a skinny person on the group so Kate would have someone to lash out to where the audience could understand some of her resentment and I find it lazy and annoying writing.

[Katy M]

I don't think Madison has ever been overweight.  I don't think anything has ever been said on the show that would make us think that she has been overweight. She either has body dysmorphia, or she wants to feel better about herself.   Judging how nice she was beign in the previous episode, I would go with the former.  Kate obviously should not have yelled at her.  But, a normal-sized person in a group of (mostly morbidly) obese people complaining about how fat she is, is bound to push some buttons.  If the group were a more mixed bag of people with eating and body issues, then I wouldn't have a problem with Madison being there.  But, when she is the only non-obese person there, and the only issue they seem to be discussing is weight loss and how to get down to a healthy weight, then, whatever the rules are, no, I don't think she belongs there.  not only because of the other people in the group, but for herself. Because she does not need to lose weight.  She needs to see herself for how she is, and that is a totally different issue than this group seems to be tackling.

[Blakeston]

17 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I think the fact that Madison has been a welcome member (by the moderator, at least) for this whole time means she's allowed to be there.  

The leader may not have barred Madison from attending, but that doesn't mean that the group is intended for people like her.

And considering that the leader hasn't said a damn thing about Kate's ridiculous outbursts, I don't think she's necessarily a stickler for rules.

[Guest]

Yeah, it's a stupid depiction because they've given the group traits of WW and of OA but neither would allow Kate's behavior (yet both would allow Madison's.) So since it's a fictional non-group that would never exist outside the land of Pearson-level melodrama, why should we bother trying to ascertain who's in the wrong?   

Besides the writers, I mean.  I kind of like the weight loss group setting because it's not something I see on tv but, man, they present such a bizarre, skewed vision of it.  Everyone in that group is morbidly obese or Madison.  Again with the lack of representation of the normal people.  

[Dreamboat Annie]

4 hours ago, dcubed said:

On ‎2017‎-‎10‎-‎25 at 11:54 PM, Dreamboat Annie said:

No, her behavior is not unacceptable.  It's not only acceptable, it's welcomed.  That's what support groups are for.  You can erupt, you can erupt big time, any time.  You can let loose.  It's understood.  The leader of the group did step in, and asked if anyone else had anything they wanted to say.  Anyone can and should if they want, respond.  There are alternatives to support groups should anyone wish for others to not be there.  One on one counselling, one on one therapy.  There are many affordable alternatives.  Yes, it's called a support group for a reason.  Anyone joining a support group knows that other troubled souls will be there and that it's not a private session, far from it. 

I have never experienced that in any support group I've attended (and I've attended a few).  Support groups are supposed to provide safety and eruptions at others is not safe.  You want to have a breakdown about you?  Sure.  About others?  No way.  As you said, it's called a support group, support being the operative word.  

I have since addressed the above quoted post of mine.

 

On ‎2017‎-‎10‎-‎26 at 4:33 PM, Dreamboat Annie said:

On ‎2017‎-‎10‎-‎26 at 8:11 AM, Jillybean said:

For clarification, are you saying that it's acceptable for one group member to personally, vehemently attack another? I ask out of genuine interest because I have never heard of this before. Ever.

I did say that but, no, of course it isn't.  I was wrong.  I apologize and, if I may, please allow me to not only clarify that, but correct it right now.  Seeing the Katehate for it and the sympathy for Madison I think got me down.  What my (somewhat) cooler head says is it's never okay but I can see why it happened.  I can see that what Madison was doing could easily come across as taunting, even if she didn't mean for it to.  If it wasn't Kate who felt provoked enough by it to finally snap, then I believe someone else would have.  I'm sure more than one attendee there wanted to stand and applaud.

I don't think Madison is fine there, and I don't think she should be there.  Yes, she has every right to be there.  But if she has body issues or a mental disorder which causes her to see herself as obese in her head then I think she needs much more help than a support group for obese people can give her.  If she's lost the weight and needs support in order to keep it off, there are support groups for that.  If someone is entirely healthy but believe in their head they are dying of all sorts of horrible diseases, they would not belong in a support group for terminally ill people, they need help for their hypochondria.  If someone is unemployed but wealthy, they shouldn't attend a support group for those looking for jobs complaining that the diamond on their ring is too heavy for their hand.  I don't believe that we should hurt peoples feelings just because we have the right to.

That said, I like the character of Madison.  I found her to be annoying in the meeting but her reaction to Kate's pregnancy news was outright endearing, and I thought it was warm, sweet and genuine.  The actress blew me away with her scene stealing moment.  Dan Fogelman's wife or not (she is), she has certainly earned the right to act alongside the major players!

[dcubed]

1 hour ago, Dreamboat Annie said:

have since addressed the above quoted post of mine.

Thanks dreamboat....sorry I didn’t read further along.  

 

PS - I like Madison too.

[debraran]

9 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I did too, until I noticed the good natured "ribbing" started having more of a mean edge to it (there toward the end).

It was obvious even to young ears. You could see some shows even where Chastity (at the time) was uncomfortable. They still had some chemistry though and Cher loved him and still misses him.  It will be fun to see the chemistry these two bring to them. ; )

2 hours ago, Blakeston said:

The leader may not have barred Madison from attending, but that doesn't mean that the group is intended for people like her.

And considering that the leader hasn't said a damn thing about Kate's ridiculous outbursts, I don't think she's necessarily a stickler for rules.

Is that a normal thing? A friend of mine who was in NA said you could call someone on something but it had to be respectful, what Kate did last time was awful. Bullying in a way. But each meeting might be different.

[Dreamboat Annie]

2 hours ago, dcubed said:

Thanks dreamboat....sorry I didn’t read further along.  

Oh, no worries, decubed!  With six full pages of comments on this episode alone, it would be unrealistic to think that we could get around to reading every one of them!

[smartymarty]

It appeared to me that Randall's shrimp cocktail glass was empty when Deja began eating hers. I didn't see tails on his plate, but presumably he didn't eat the tails. So wouldn't Deja have seen that and not tried to eat hers?

[Katy M]

18 minutes ago, smartymarty said:

It appeared to me that Randall's shrimp cocktail glass was empty when Deja began eating hers. I didn't see tails on his plate, but presumably he didn't eat the tails. So wouldn't Deja have seen that and not tried to eat hers?

Maybe he did eat the tails and he was jut being a big hypocrite.

[possibilities]

On 10/31/2017 at 7:09 PM, debraran said:

Is that a normal thing? A friend of mine who was in NA said you could call someone on something but it had to be respectful, what Kate did last time was awful. Bullying in a way. But each meeting might be different.

Does anyone watch "Loudermilk"? It's a show about a guy who runs an NA group, and the people in his life, in and out of the group. Sometimes they show the meetings. I always thought 12 step groups refused to allow any "cross-talk" or direct responses to what other people "share". But Loudermilk gives direct feedback to people in his group, and he pushes them, and to me it looks like even though he's basically kind of a dick, that the people he's dealing with actually do really need it.

I have no idea if that's because they write the show to suggest 12 step groups need to change, or if it's a thing that actually happens in 12 step groups in real life. But in real life OUTSIDE of 12 step groups, I have definitely seen people who will never get a clue until someone SPELLS IT OUT for them, and often that involves waiting until they've aggravated everyone around them til somebody explodes.

I agree Kate wasn't being gentle, and I was totally expecting her to be kicked out or challenged for how she was behaving, and I wouldn't have objected if that happened. But at the same time, I also think that sometimes people don't grow if all they do is wallow, and sometimes they need some tough love and direct feedback.

Kate still crossed a line-- she wasn't doing it to be helpful, she was doing it out of annoyance. But at the same time, Madison really does seem to need some perspective, and she was being insensitive and annoying, and she probably could stand to have some idea of how skewed her reality comes across. Maybe it was badly done, but could have some positive effect anyway. We saw that Madison is actually strong enough to take it, she can push back, and she was also able to drop it and respond a different way when she thought it might be a serious situation that called for it (that Kate might be hurt after the car accident, and then that congratulations were in order when she found out Kate was pregnant). Maybe if she had been new to the meeting, or more clearly fragile, Kate would have behaved differently. At some point, people will lose patience, even if they aren't chronically irritated like Kate is. You don't want to be enabled in your dysfunctions any more than you want to be condemned. It seemed like everyone was tired of Madison, and Kate was just the first to blow her top over it. Maybe it could be a breakthrough for them both.

[Neurochick]

On October 28, 2017 at 8:48 AM, maddie965 said:

- I cried when Toby did his scene on the cafe. Yes, it was completely over the top, but so were the emotions he was feeling. Totally justified to go crazy. I was so happy for him and for Kate (for allowing that to happen), I burst into tears. I wanna cry right now just thinking about it. I bet Kate never thought she would get pregnant. I bet Toby never thought he would have a kid with a woman he loves. Such a wonderful moment for the both of them.

- I love every time there's a sex scene between Toby and Kate. Because yes, I do believe there's HUGE prejudice about fat people being able to do normal things that everyone does. I believe most people find the idea of fat people having sex gross, or undesirable, or not acceptable. How many scenes of fat people having sex, or even making out, have you seen in your life? Now compare it with the number of times you've seen thin couples having sex? Yes, that. So if the authors want to make a point there, so be it. Maybe it will make people aware that yes, fat people are just like them - only fatter..

I get this post, I really do.  My issue is this show prides itself on being "real", you know, real feelings, real emotions, real family, etc. Yet Toby, at least to me, acts like a cartoon character.  Sometimes I think we on this board over think things (and when I say we I include myself too), but that's what happens when you get older.  Tony pushing everything off his desk, why did he think Kate would want to have sex with him when there were scores of people outside?  

The scene at the cafe was WAY over the top and fake, to me.  If someone really did that in a cafe, they'd be thrown out, a lot of people are particular about where they eat and when he threw the water on himself, I cringed because at first I thought it was boiling water. 

I feel that too many of the Toby scenes play like they're from a cheap nineties UPN sitcom.

Edited November 4, 2017 by Neurochick

[TobinAlbers]

Kevin sneaking Deja's bacon and her little smile when she noticed was too cute. Hell yes, if I was her I'd crushing hard on his charming hot ass. Shoot I'm older and crushing now. Love that Beth acknowledged that Kevin's hot even though she finds him unfunny.

Toby thinking that he and Kate were having a desk clearing kind of meeting was hilarious.  Whatever issues I have with Toby sometimes, he seems like he'll be a crazy amazing dad. Poor Kate, I get her issues and fears about the pregnancy going to term, but no, you can't live in fear and it is so not fair to ask Toby to not experience the joy of finding out he's going to be a dad.

Damn. The look on Jack's Dad's face as the realization all just washed over him: this is my son's wife, wow that kid did good, holy shit she's a sweet kid, oh...my...God I have a granddaughter. Just all the devastation and regret and time wasted and infinity of wishes to do it all over again and be better and wishing you had been better and knowing you were a piece of shit.

Nobody likes patience. Amen, Jack.

Kevin: There could be a woman ::whispers:: pooping in there.

Randall: (stoically looks at his brother) I know

Love when the brothers get to be brothers.

Yeah, it's weird that Sophie's not seeing the signs about Kevin's addiction problem. Honey he had knee surgery and was up and going after a week. Now he's out of character and sweating buckets. Although I think the penny may have dropped for her by the time he left.

Damn it weeRandall with your notepad and notes about Kevin.

The soundtrack for this show is sublime.

WeeJack and WeeNicky.  Just like Jack Bauer fit Kiefer Sutherland, Jack Pearson fits Milo and he plays the hell out of it. So may layers to this man and so many facets and sides to play. It's better than any feature role could offer.

[methodwriter85]

5 hours ago, TobinAlbers said:

WeeJack and WeeNicky.  Just like Jack Bauer fit Kiefer Sutherland, Jack Pearson fits Milo and he plays the hell out of it. So may layers to this man and so many facets and sides to play. It's better than any feature role could offer.

Jack having a little brother that he felt he had to protect because Daddy was an abusive alkie just makes so much damn sense about his personality and why he's so intent on giving his children a wonderful childhood. It would also explain why he wouldn't speak about Nicky, if he failed at protecting him.

[mostlylurking]

I absolutely loved Toby’s reaction to finding out Kate was pregnant.   I think that is the reaction most people would want their partner to have.  I don’t think Kate deserves him, and this is coming from someone who had fertility problems so I get her nerves.

Madison also was so much nicer and forgiving than Kate deserved.  I just find Kate extremely unlikeable.