S02.E07: The Ranches

[Guest]

Quote

Promoted as educational camps for troubled youngsters, former students say the Mace-Kingsley Ranches were labor camps for children; former students describe the hardships they endured, from corporal punishment to challenging living conditions.

 

[mbaywife123]

To hear the stories of abused and victimized children at the ranches really pushed me over the edge.

Sending an email to someone I know who was VERY, VERY high up in the Clinton and Obama administrations. (Think former White House Chief of Staff, former CIA director and Secretary of Defense) he and his family don't like this kind of bullshit at all.

Edited October 11, 2017 by mbaywife123

[Mysteris]

That was pretty brutal. I don't buy for a second that the Church didn't know about the abuses going on in those child-labor camps. I felt so bad for both Nathan and Tara. I mean, these kids were physically, psychologically, and mentally abused for years. Tara got blamed for discovering her father's cheating, and there was mention that one of them was completely divorced from the non-Scientologist side of the family by decree of the Scientologist parent. What broke my heart the most was when Nathan was trying to pick up the pieces of his life after escaping the camp and his bitch of a mother wouldn't even sign the papers so he could try to make a life for himself. I know he felt bad that he cursed her out and she died, but honestly? I think he's better off.

 

Same with Tara. Her family won't speak to her after all they put her through? That's fucking rich. Let them go, and let them choke on that $150,000 they think she owes them for her abuse.

[Maelstrom]

Just when I think that we’ve heard the worst of CO$, they completely fucking outdo themselves. This is just heartrending, soul crushing stuff.

I must be around Tara and Nathan’s age, and I cannot imagine for half a second going through the hell they did. If the physical, mental and emotional abuse of the Cherch wasn’t enough, to have your family cut you entirely out of their lives like that? I truly cannot even imagine it, guys. If any of that had happened to me I don’t think i’d be here today, and certainly not as composed and together as Nathan and Tara both seemed. Yes, both of them were clearly (and understandably) upset and emotional, but if it were me in their shoes I certainly wouldn’t be anywhere near as functional. I commend them for moving on with their lives, and for coming forward as well.

This post probably stopped making sense awhile ago but I literally don’t know what to say anymore. If this episode can’t get the FBI or someone to finally step up, then nothing will.

[mbaywife123]

Since I don't Twitter, Facebook or Instagram ( I try to stay off of "social media" as much as possible except for direct emails) if any of you want to send Leah or Mike a link to the Panetta Institute it would be greatly appreciated.

[rhys]

According to Nathan, that turd Wally Hanks is still alive.

[mbaywife123]

6 minutes ago, rhys said:

According to Nathan, that turd Wally Hanks is still alive.

Turd indeed, I hope that when he is admitted to a nursing home he is scrubbed clean with lava soap and a Brillo pad.

[Glade]

These scientology parents are really something!  Their own kids might as well starve to death on the streets if they don't comply with their sick cult.   And they charge 150,000 for children to be fed a starvation diet of dry ramen noodles while engaging in around the clock slave labor.  Of course these places do exist outside of scientology--private prison camps for 'troubled teens,' the survivors (and these places are notorious for many deaths) of which describe being kidnapped by guards in their own beds just like Nathan.  But scientology puts a horrifyingly unique twist on that already abusive formula. 

And all while they claim to be saving the world, by scamming people out of their money and destroying their lives.  The hypocrisy and lies are so insanely disgusting.  Yes, you fucking knew what was going on; you liscenced this, and since it was run by scientologists who received auditing in your top-down church, you knew what was going on and you were happy with it.  It's fully in life with the RPF and the hole.  Honestly, the corporation needs to be dissolved today and the assets divided up into a dividend paid to every ex-scientologist ever victimized by the church.  It's disgusting that they hoard so much money while causing so much misery and poverty.

Lots of adult children of abusive parents wind up in the situation Nathan was in; there is a process by which you can gain an exception to apply for financial aid as an independant at a younger age, but it's a lot of paperwork and and very strict criteria that leaves some people with no option but to drop out or forgo college altogether.

[Whimsy]

This is proof of child endangerment and abuse.  I would like more recent examples of these activities highlighted only because I'm afraid the "church" will get away with this shit because they'll say it's not going on anymore (which is what their responses always say, but I don't know the statute of limitations for prosecuting this would be). 

I am a bit confused by Leah's reactions throughout and statements at the end, though, since she's been through all of this herself and even wrote a book about it.  Was it the same ranch?  I don't remember.  During the episode, I was thinking to myself that she was just being a good interviewer and asking the questions so the audience would get the full story but then at the end she was saying that she didn't know this was happening to children. That really confused me.  Did she think it had stopped, maybe?

Regardless, this is heartbreaking stuff to listen to.  All of us here- and anyone else not indoctrinated into this crap- can either empathize as either a parent or a child and know how messed up this all is.  That there are thousands of people who have been brainwashed that this is ok behavior scares the beejeezus out of me!  And, it's so ingrained I don't think just getting out when (and I do mean when) this "religion" is finally shut down will make them wake up and see they were wrong.  I definitely think that a lot of these people will continue to practice this crap on their own.  

[rhys]

What was that term they used last night? Something like "down stat?" I really need a a Hubbard dictionary hahaha to watch this show. So many made up words/terms that I don't know & can't get from context.

I was expecting this thread to be 2 pages this morning.

[ZoloftBlob]

Unfortuneatly, I really don't think this would inspire any legal action. If Scientology followed the pattern of other "rehabilitative boarding schools" - they have their butts nicely covered. People, survivors, have been going after these kinds of schools for years with sadly little result. Look up WWASP. Worse, look up Paradise Cove - a kid actually died there... and hardly anyone got in any trouble. It's perfectly legal in this country to put your kid in an abusive prison.

[veronicamers]

2 hours ago, Whimsy said:

I am a bit confused by Leah's reactions throughout and statements at the end, though, since she's been through all of this herself and even wrote a book about it.  Was it the same ranch?  I don't remember.  During the episode, I was thinking to myself that she was just being a good interviewer and asking the questions so the audience would get the full story but then at the end she was saying that she didn't know this was happening to children. That really confused me.  Did she think it had stopped, maybe?

Leah herself never went to one of these camps. IIRC, she was taken out of school when her mom went on staff in Clearwater (and later LA), but I don't think she was ever shipped away. 

Does anyone know how these camps relate to the ranch Jenna Miscavige Hill describes in her book? It sort of seems like the camp Tara and Nathan attended was a Scientology-sanctioned "reform" camp/school whereas what Jenna went to was Sea Org training related?

And wow to these sets of parents who completely abandoned their children. Boy oh boy is it rich to hold your child responsible for parental infidelity. When Tara said that I literally got so enraged I about flipped the coffee table.

Edited October 11, 2017 by veronicamers

[juliet73]

1 hour ago, Whimsy said:

This is proof of child endangerment and abuse.  I would like more recent examples of these activities highlighted only because I'm afraid the "church" will get away with this shit because they'll say it's not going on anymore (which is what their responses always say, but I don't know the statute of limitations for prosecuting this would be). 

I am a bit confused by Leah's reactions throughout and statements at the end, though, since she's been through all of this herself and even wrote a book about it.  Was it the same ranch?  I don't remember.  During the episode, I was thinking to myself that she was just being a good interviewer and asking the questions so the audience would get the full story but then at the end she was saying that she didn't know this was happening to children. That really confused me.  Did she think it had stopped, maybe?

 

I haven't watched the episode yet, but IIRC, Leah and her sister (s) were never at the ranch; they were in Clearwater. She used to clean hotel rooms, etc. I think Leah understands these stories to a point. IE, the sleeping arrangements, lack of food, education, working 16 hour days, thinking she was saving the world, etc. However, the difference between her and these other kids is her mom was nearby and was respected in the "church". Granted, they didn't see her often, but it was a lot more than these other kids. Plus, her mother always had her back. Leah wrote in her book that she got in trouble (something with kissing a boy) and the Co$ was going to punish her. I can't remember if it was by sending her to the ranch or something else, but her mom intervened and said absolutely not. So Leah and the rest of her family got out of their sea org contracts and were reassigned to California.

[juliet73]

22 minutes ago, veronicamers said:

Leah herself never went to one of these camps. IIRC, she was taken out of school when her mom went on staff in Clearwater (and later LA), but I don't think she was ever shipped away. 

Does anyone know how these camps relate to the ranch Jenna Miscavige Hill describes in her book? It sort of seems like the camp Tara and Nathan was a Scientology-sanctioned "reform" camp/school whereas what Jenna went to was Sea Org training related?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Palmdale and NM ranches were for the "bad" kids. There was (is) also the "school" ranches where the kids learn $cientology instead of math, history, etc, but they also do manual labor there as well. I don't know if the work is as extreme as the bad kid ranches, but it's definitely work that young children shouldn't be doing. 

[CindyBee]

Leah's sister tweeted last night something like "I thought we had it bad as kids but its nothing compared to what Tara/Nathan experienced".   So yes the Remini sisters were in a tough situation as kids but they weren't at some ranch from hell.

Every time I read/see programs about traumatic childhoods, I think why was I so lucky to have my happy, carefree one where my parents loved me, fed and clothed me, sent me to a top notch Catholic high school, helped me go to college, etc.    And then there are people like Tara and Nathan that had anything but which is so sad on so many different levels.

Tony's site has more from Tara about how her family tried for months to get this episode pulled off the air.   Good for her to have the strength to not allow that.   Tony also has a link to a GoFundMe page for her as she is trying to move to Austin, Texas with her kids to start a new life there.     I wish her luck with that as a new beginning will hopefully be good for her.

[bosawks]

Yeah, so, after this I can no longer complain about the boring day camp my parents sent me to, although I will insist on my right to detest macrame and kickball until the end of my days......

[Whimsy]

35 minutes ago, veronicamers said:

Leah herself never went to one of these camps. IIRC, she was taken out of school when her mom went on staff in Clearwater (and later LA), but I don't think she was ever shipped away. 

Does anyone know how these camps relate to the ranch Jenna Miscavige Hill describes in her book? It sort of seems like the camp Tara and Nathan was a Scientology-sanctioned "reform" camp/school whereas what Jenna went to was Sea Org training related?

And wow to these sets of parents who completely abandoned their children. Boy oh boy is it rich to hold your child responsible for parental infidelity. When Tara said that I literally got so enraged I about flipped the coffee table.

I read so much all at once that I got them confused- it was Jenna's book I was thinking of!

[Whimsy]

22 minutes ago, CindyBee said:

Leah's sister tweeted last night something like "I thought we had it bad as kids but its nothing compared to what Tara/Nathan experienced".   So yes the Remini sisters were in a tough situation as kids but they weren't at some ranch from hell.

Every time I read/see programs about traumatic childhoods, I think why was I so lucky to have my happy, carefree one where my parents loved me, fed and clothed me, sent me to a top notch Catholic high school, helped me go to college, etc.    And then there are people like Tara and Nathan that had anything but which is so sad on so many different levels.

Tony's site has more from Tara about how her family tried for months to get this episode pulled off the air.   Good for her to have the strength to not allow that.   Tony also has a link to a GoFundMe page for her as she is trying to move to Austin, Texas with her kids to start a new life there.     I wish her luck with that as a new beginning will hopefully be good for her.

Sorry for back-to-back posts, but I just read the article referenced above.  A couple of thoughts: 1- why are they so concerned about people being paid?  That's their go-to "proof" that the participants in this show are bad.  and 2- Tara said that she was on the phone with her uncle for FOUR hours.  I would've hung up after like 2 minutes since it was obvious why he was calling.  I don't know how she even could've stood to be on the phone that long with anyone, let alone someone trying to tell her how wrong she is, etc.  

[smorbie]

10 hours ago, mbaywife123 said:

Turd indeed, I hope that when he is admitted to a nursing home he is scrubbed clean with lava soap and a Brillo pad.

His true punishment will come when he dies and isn't reborn, but goes to meet an angry God.  Hell is waiting.  And the devil he served will be happy to have him.  That is the Hell Leah was talking about.  No rebirth, just an eternity of fire and punishment,

12 hours ago, Mysteris said:

That was pretty brutal. I don't buy for a second that the Church didn't know about the abuses going on in those child-labor camps. I felt so bad for both Nathan and Tara. I mean, these kids were physically, psychologically, and mentally abused for years. Tara got blamed for discovering her father's cheating, and there was mention that one of them was completely divorced from the non-Scientologist side of the family by decree of the Scientologist parent. What broke my heart the most was when Nathan was trying to pick up the pieces of his life after escaping the camp and his bitch of a mother wouldn't even sign the papers so he could try to make a life for himself. I know he felt bad that he cursed her out and she died, but honestly? I think he's better off.

 

Same with Tara. Her family won't speak to her after all they put her through? That's fucking rich. Let them go, and let them choke on that $150,000 they think she owes them for her abuse.

No child owes his parent for raising him, whether that includes sending him to regular camp or some prison camp like poor Tara endured.

7 hours ago, Glade said:

These scientology parents are really something!  Their own kids might as well starve to death on the streets if they don't comply with their sick cult.   And they charge 150,000 for children to be fed a starvation diet of dry ramen noodles while engaging in around the clock slave labor.  Of course these places do exist outside of scientology--private prison camps for 'troubled teens,' the survivors (and these places are notorious for many deaths) of which describe being kidnapped by guards in their own beds just like Nathan.  But scientology puts a horrifyingly unique twist on that already abusive formula. 

And all while they claim to be saving the world, by scamming people out of their money and destroying their lives.  The hypocrisy and lies are so insanely disgusting.  Yes, you fucking knew what was going on; you liscenced this, and since it was run by scientologists who received auditing in your top-down church, you knew what was going on and you were happy with it.  It's fully in life with the RPF and the hole.  Honestly, the corporation needs to be dissolved today and the assets divided up into a dividend paid to every ex-scientologist ever victimized by the church.  It's disgusting that they hoard so much money while causing so much misery and poverty.

Lots of adult children of abusive parents wind up in the situation Nathan was in; there is a process by which you can gain an exception to apply for financial aid as an independant at a younger age, but it's a lot of paperwork and and very strict criteria that leaves some people with no option but to drop out or forgo college altogether.

I think of everything I heard, their not giving the children water for the ramen hit me the hardest.  I guess I'm accustomed to all the horrible physical punishments from hearing about the sea org and the hole.

Edited October 11, 2017 by smorbie

[geekgirl921]

This one was very powerful. I feel so horrible for all of the kids who have had to go through this stuff and are still going through it. It's amazing how many parents are brainwashed by this cult into throwing their children away. I was especially "impressed" with Tara's family; your parents' divorce is your fault because you caught your dad cheating and you owe us $150,000 for the years of abuse you endured; that's some impressively, twisted logic there!! 

[Lady Iris]

2 hours ago, CindyBee said:

Every time I read/see programs about traumatic childhoods, I think why was I so lucky to have my happy, carefree one where my parents loved me, fed and clothed me, sent me to a top notch Catholic high school, helped me go to college, etc.    And then there are people like Tara and Nathan that had anything but which is so sad on so many different levels.

There, but for the grace of God, go I. It does make you wonder and be thankful that no matter how bad things get, somebody always has it worse. I've had the same thoughts watching this program but it just applies to life in general as well. The tragic part is how these children are just offered up to be...God I don't know, tortured, and for what reason? What is the end game for these kids once they grow up? Do they stay with the church?

[juliet73]

3 hours ago, Whimsy said:

Sorry for back-to-back posts, but I just read the article referenced above.  A couple of thoughts: 1- why are they so concerned about people being paid?  That's their go-to "proof" that the participants in this show are bad.  

I think if the Aftermath paid the victims for telling their stories, the Co$ can prove, in their own twisted way, that the victims are lying.  Basically, saying the show is paying them to say such nonsense.

I think it's ironic that the Co$ constantly states that without practicing their teachings, bad things will happen to their members.  However, Nathan got into drugs, homelessness, etc BECAUSE OF $CIENTOLOGY.  He has his life together now and seems to be doing well and his success has NOTHING to due with $cientology!  All these people who have come forward seem to have much better lives since quitting the Co$!

I had to fast forward the audio tape of the boy getting beat.  It crushed more than anything else on that I have seen on this show.  

[smorbie]

4 hours ago, juliet73 said:

I think if the Aftermath paid the victims for telling their stories, the Co$ can prove, in their own twisted way, that the victims are lying.  Basically, saying the show is paying them to say such nonsense.

I think it's ironic that the Co$ constantly states that without practicing their teachings, bad things will happen to their members.  However, Nathan got into drugs, homelessness, etc BECAUSE OF $CIENTOLOGY.  He has his life together now and seems to be doing well and his success has NOTHING to due with $cientology!  All these people who have come forward seem to have much better lives since quitting the Co$!

I had to fast forward the audio tape of the boy getting beat.  It crushed more than anything else on that I have seen on this show.  

Nathan was already heading down a dark path, skipping school and stealing at age eight.  However, at that age, it would have been easy to deal with at home rather than send him away, even if it was to a nice place.  I think his mom was frightened and overwhelmed because she was raising him on her own and he was already having a tough time at such a young age.  

That is the last nice thing I will say about her.

To turn your eight year-old-baby over to anyone else to raise because of such minor, but troublesome, reasons, is unfathomable to me.  He wasn't hitting her or taking knives to school, or cutting up cats.  His behavior was in need of correction; he was in need of guidance.  He wasn't a monster.

I'm always skeptical of someone who blames his decision to use drugs on something external.  No one, not even the crock, stood over him forcing the drugs into his body.  He made that decision.  I understand the continued use of substances is often for a coping mechanism.  And I'm sure he lacked healthy ones.  That is entirely the crock's fault. 

I probably would have become a professional drug abuser if I had to live through that.  But it would have not been the crock's fault I chose that, and neither is it their fault that he did.

But, he also made the decision to try to go to school and to better himself.  He and Tara have both made something of themselves.  They deserve all our commendation and admiration for that.

Edited October 11, 2017 by smorbie

[dwarmed]

I think some of these Co$ “parents” are happy to have justification for abandoning their kids. I won’t blame that on brainwashing. There is nothing lower than a person who brings a child into the world, then refuses to parent/protect/love that child. They are utter failures as human beings. 

[Jesse]

I know this is not at all the point of the episode, but I was impressed that Nathan said "drink the Flavor Aid," not "Kool Aid," because isn't Flavor Aid what they actually drank at Jonestown? He has been studying up on cults.

[Empress1]

11 hours ago, ZoloftBlob said:

Unfortuneatly, I really don't think this would inspire any legal action. If Scientology followed the pattern of other "rehabilitative boarding schools" - they have their butts nicely covered. People, survivors, have been going after these kinds of schools for years with sadly little result. Look up WWASP. Worse, look up Paradise Cove - a kid actually died there... and hardly anyone got in any trouble. It's perfectly legal in this country to put your kid in an abusive prison.

There was a person on Intervention who was sent to Paradise Cove and what she described was horrible. There are some addicts on this show where you think "Holy shit, no wonder you do drugs" and she was one.

This was brutal. I really do not understand hurting children. I don't. And Nate's mother didn't deserve to have him patch things up with her before she died. I can understand why he's upset about it, but I hope he can let that go.

[italianguy626]

41 minutes ago, Jesse said:

I know this is not at all the point of the episode, but I was impressed that Nathan said "drink the Flavor Aid," not "Kool Aid," because isn't Flavor Aid what they actually drank at Jonestown? He has been studying up on cults.

I caught that too. It was Flavor Aid at Jonestown, and even though I know this, I even say "Drink the Kool Aid..." 

[2727]

23 hours ago, dwarmed said:

I think some of these Co$ “parents” are happy to have justification for abandoning their kids. I won’t blame that on brainwashing.

Well, nothing is more important than their own progress up the fucking bridge, right?

I don't know why Scientologists even have kids.

19 hours ago, Empress1 said:

And Nate's mother didn't deserve to have him patch things up with her before she died. I can understand why he's upset about it, but I hope he can let that go.

I hope so, too. Abandoned and abused children who still ache for approval and love from their despicable, toxic parents break my heart.

Edited October 12, 2017 by 2727

[juliet73]

5 hours ago, smorbie said:

Nathan was already heading down a dark path, skipping school and stealing at age eight.  However, at that age, it would have been easy to deal with at home rather than send him away, even if it was to a nice place.  I think his mom was frightened and overwhelmed because she was raising him on her own and he was already having a tough time at such a young age.  

That is the last nice thing I will say about her.

To turn your eight year-old-baby over to anyone else to raise because of such minor, but troublesome, reasons, is unfathomable to me.  He wasn't hitting her or taking knives to school, or cutting up cats.  His behavior was in need of correction; he was in need of guidance.  He wasn't a monster.

I'm always skeptical of someone who blames his decision to use drugs on something external.  No one, not even the crock, stood over him forcing the drugs into his body.  He made that decision.  I understand the continued use of substances is often for a coping mechanism.  And I'm sure he lacked healthy ones.  That is entirely the crock's fault. 

I probably would have become a professional drug abuser if I had to live through that.  But it would have not been the crock's fault I chose that, and neither is it their fault that he did.

But, he also made the decision to try to go to school and to better himself.  He and Tara have both made something of themselves.  They deserve all our commendation and admiration for that.

From what I gathered, Nathan was headed down a dark path because of $cientology.  He said he born into it, but never really took to it.  He said he just wanted to be a normal kid who collected baseball cards. I guess in his 8 year old brain that meant ditching school and stealing cards.  As for his mother being an overwhelmed single parent...she brought that upon herself.  Nathan said that his father and his entire father's side of the family was cut out of his life because they weren't $cientologists.  Either way, I agree with you that sending him away to that hell hole ranch was unnecessary.  

Also, I agree with you about it being Nathan's choice to use drugs.  However, I don't think he was using as a coping mechanism, I think he was using to escape his life - both past and present.  If I had to go through that experience, I probably would be on drugs too.  The important thing is he got his act together and is leading a productive life and owes none of his success and happiness to the Co$.

I looked up Tara's GoFundMe page and her goal was $15k so she could move to Austin and start over.  She was already at over $12k in less than a day!  I saw that Marc and Claire Headly donated as well as Nathan.  It was nice to see so many people willing to donate and/or leave positive and encouraging comments.  

[Maelstrom]

^^ That is really cool about Tara’s GoFundMe getting such support! After hearing all of the horrible CO$ stories of mistreatment, abuse, and inhumanity it’s so nice to hear about there are still kind and caring people out in the world.

Though it may have been Nathan's choice to use drugs, it’s worth remembering that he wasn’t given the proper emotional/psychological foundation in his formative years to know how to deal with his pain. CO$ closed off every avenue of support that he normally would and should have had, such as loving parents, extended family, trusted teachers and friends. So was turning to drugs the best way to cope? No, of course not. But after all he’d been forced to endure in his life, I can see how it could have looked like the only option.

At any rate, I applaud both Nathan and Tara for speaking out, and as always I’m so grateful to Leah and Mike for doing this show.

[andromeda331]

27 minutes ago, Maelstrom said:

^^ That is really cool about Tara’s GoFundMe getting such support! After hearing all of the horrible CO$ stories of mistreatment, abuse, and inhumanity it’s so nice to hear about there are still kind and caring people out in the world.

Though it may have been Nathan's choice to use drugs, it’s worth remembering that he wasn’t given the proper emotional/psychological foundation in his formative years to know how to deal with his pain. CO$ closed off every avenue of support that he normally would and should have had, such as loving parents, extended family, trusted teachers and friends. So was turning to drugs the best way to cope? No, of course not. But after all he’d been forced to endure in his life, I can see how it could have looked like the only option.

At any rate, I applaud both Nathan and Tara for speaking out, and as always I’m so grateful to Leah and Mike for doing this show.

So do I.  Those kids went through hell. Had zero support, endless mistreatment, abuse and horrible parents. Poor Nathan wish he had patched things up with his mother. Nathan, your mother didn't deserve you. You certainly didn't deserve what happened to you. Same with Tara. Her shitty family is tried to collect 150,000 from her? Expected her to pay for her crappy treatment? None of those kids at the ranches deserved that. 

[ramble]

What in the actual hell? Just when I think I’ve heard the worst of the horrors that is the festering pit of CO$ I’m surprised again. This so-called “religion” is a money grubbing scam that is using and abusing people. I’m still so angry and I watched this more than an hour ago. 

These people who had children, I won’t call them parents, are unflinchingly selfish and cruel. It’s difficult raising a kid and you’re struggling? Welcome to real life you sick creep. I’m a single mom of two, and have been since they were very young. There have been hard, tough times. We’ve been in therapy off and on throughout  the years. I’ve felt helpless and hopeless at times, but damnit I’m their mom and pushing forward and trying my best is my job. One of my kiddos has had some emotional issues the past few years and I’ve changed my life and my work to do what I can to address them. I don’t think that’s special, I think that’s what a loving parent does. If your “religion” is telling you to put yourself and your super special ability to save the planet before your own child, maybe you should ask yourself what about saving your own child, who is on this planet, too  

I can’t truly wrap my head around the idea that children are little adults who are disposable and not really a parent’s responsibility. How does this cult expect to continue when they not only don’t value children but actively dislike them? New members aren’t clamoring to join and eventually it will die off if they don’t encourage children within their diehard membership. Maybe Little Davey plans on it dying with him? I don’t know, and I don’t care how, but It just needs to die. 

Imagining a child being blamed for their parents divorce because she caught her dad cheating is mind blowing. Sending her away for punishment when she isn’t processing the situations well is further craziness. And being told you owe your dad money for your time at abuse camp, what in the actual hell? Then there’s a young boy who is having trouble fitting into your crock of cult crap and you ship him off more than once. Abdicating your responsibility and even avoiding any contact with your own child for years so the abuse camp can raise him. I say again, what in the actual hell? 

I think I’m starting to rant. This show continues to amaze and upset me. I’m so glad it’s out there getting stories told and letting voices be heard. Still at times the content makes me crazy angry. I want the CO$ to burn down in flames of humiliation and shame. 

[AZChristian]

Next thing you know, hard-core $cientologists will start making up stories about how they want to leave the cult, so they start gofundme pages.  New source of income for the Co$.  I wouldn't put it past them, especially since I'm sure Leah and Mike have caused a big dip in their donations.

[Lawgiver]

My heart started pounding when I heard the "alleged" tape of Wally Hanks hitting that boy. It was terrifying, and I was safe on my couch watching it on TV. I can't even imagine how those kids must have felt, confronted with such abuse.

[TattleTeeny]

Quote

Leah herself never went to one of these camps. IIRC, she was taken out of school when her mom went on staff in Clearwater (and later LA), but I don't think she was ever shipped away. 

Just read her book and I think she did live at some kind of motel/hotel-based compound and did have to do manual labor (and was tossed into a lake by some authority figure), but maybe not a real-deal camp situation. 

[wendyg]

In her book, Remini says that the adult way the Scientologists treated her was part of the initial appeal: she felt she was being taken seriously and listened to, and she really liked that. Ironic, as this episode shows.

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

Next thing you know, hard-core $cientologists will start making up stories about how they want to leave the cult, so they start gofundme pages.  New source of income for the Co$.  I wouldn't put it past them, especially since I'm sure Leah and Mike have caused a big dip in their donations.

Or the church will make up fake members to do this.  They won't want their actual members to see so many people are in support of them.

[juliet73]

1 hour ago, deaja said:

Or the church will make up fake members to do this.  They won't want their actual members to see so many people are in support of them.

I wouldn't put it past them. But knowing how stupid the Co$ is, they'll have GoFundMe pages for Tim Bruise and Kristie Valley and then deny they are associated with the "church".

Edited October 12, 2017 by juliet73

[iMonrey]

Quote

 It's perfectly legal in this country to put your kid in an abusive prison.

Sadly, this is true. While this episode was heartbreaking and horrifying, these experiences are not unique to Scientology. 

It was nice to see that Nathan and Tara had managed to build decent lives for themselves, but I would have been interested to know how they finally managed to pull their lives together. And I"m a bit confused that Tara is running a GoFundMe campaign because the show gave us the impression she's doing OK now, financially. Both she and Nathan were described as having rather impressive jobs.

[funky-rat]

21 hours ago, smorbie said:

Nathan was already heading down a dark path, skipping school and stealing at age eight.  However, at that age, it would have been easy to deal with at home rather than send him away, even if it was to a nice place.  I think his mom was frightened and overwhelmed because she was raising him on her own and he was already having a tough time at such a young age.  

That is the last nice thing I will say about her.

To turn your eight year-old-baby over to anyone else to raise because of such minor, but troublesome, reasons, is unfathomable to me.  He wasn't hitting her or taking knives to school, or cutting up cats.  His behavior was in need of correction; he was in need of guidance.  He wasn't a monster.

I'm always skeptical of someone who blames his decision to use drugs on something external.  No one, not even the crock, stood over him forcing the drugs into his body.  He made that decision.  I understand the continued use of substances is often for a coping mechanism.  And I'm sure he lacked healthy ones.  That is entirely the crock's fault. 

I probably would have become a professional drug abuser if I had to live through that.  But it would have not been the crock's fault I chose that, and neither is it their fault that he did.

But, he also made the decision to try to go to school and to better himself.  He and Tara have both made something of themselves.  They deserve all our commendation and admiration for that.

Some of his "issues" were that he couldn't "get into" Scientology.  He didn't like it, didn't understand it, and didn't want to do it.  He wanted to be like his friends, but wasn't allowed to.  So he rebelled by skipping school and stealing baseball cards (likely because his mom wouldn't buy them for him).  My brother in law stole all the time when he was younger - from the time he was in Elementary School on.  And always stuff that their mom would wave in front of them, but not allow them to have (she would feed the kids stuff like Ramen and dollar store boxed mac & cheese, but keep a locked cabined full of stuff for her to eat - and only her - and God help you if you took anything from it).  My husband got much worse beatings than his brother, so he never stole.  I'm not saying it's right to steal -far from it - but being that Nathan was a little kid, it could be very easily corrected right then and there.  It didn't require him to be sent away.  My brother in law got kicked out of elementary school for various reasons, including stealing, and was sent away to a Christian School and to live with a relative who abused him worse than he got at home.  Even when Nathan got out of the ranch, he still had trouble conforming to Scientology, and ultimately ended up further down that dark road.

17 hours ago, Jesse said:

I know this is not at all the point of the episode, but I was impressed that Nathan said "drink the Flavor Aid," not "Kool Aid," because isn't Flavor Aid what they actually drank at Jonestown? He has been studying up on cults.

They had both Kool Aid and Flavor Aid at Jonestown, but most experts agree it was the Flavor Aid.  You can see the boxes of Flavor Aid stacked up in a pantry in one of the propaganda films that Jonestown people sent back home try to convince people to come down.

[Whimsy]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

And I"m a bit confused that Tara is running a GoFundMe campaign because the show gave us the impression she's doing OK now, financially. Both she and Nathan were described as having rather impressive jobs.

Honestly, this puts a bad taste in my mouth.  I wish all the survivors of this "religion" the best in life, I really do, but this seems like she's using her 15 minutes to get money.  It's just giving them more fuel for her smear campaign. 

[CindyBee]

2 hours ago, Whimsy said:

Honestly, this puts a bad taste in my mouth.  I wish all the survivors of this "religion" the best in life, I really do, but this seems like she's using her 15 minutes to get money.  It's just giving them more fuel for her smear campaign. 

 

I don't think the episode gave the impression that Tara was well off financially as I remember her blurb saying that she was a loving mom to two kids and is in therapy for PTSD.   Nothing about any career.  

FWIW, I read on Tony's site that  Nathan gave a large sum of money to the account so he must feel she's in need of some help as she moves on to the next chapter in her life.

[Lugal]

On 10/11/2017 at 2:13 PM, smorbie said:

I'm always skeptical of someone who blames his decision to use drugs on something external.  No one, not even the crock, stood over him forcing the drugs into his body.  He made that decision.  I understand the continued use of substances is often for a coping mechanism.  And I'm sure he lacked healthy ones.  That is entirely the crock's fault.

It's true the CO$ did not force him to take drugs, but they put him in a position for it to happen (by cutting away and destroying every support system he had).  I have seen it too much in life where the ones who set these tragedies in motion can walk away saying: I didn't force him/her to do that...

 

5 hours ago, Whimsy said:

Honestly, this puts a bad taste in my mouth.  I wish all the survivors of this "religion" the best in life, I really do, but this seems like she's using her 15 minutes to get money.  It's just giving them more fuel for her smear campaign. 

She's asking for money to move to a new place and start over.  Cost of moving, as well as time spent doing all the things like getting kids into school and finding a job not to mention rent for a place (I don't know the rental market in Austin).  What's she's asking for isn't that much, and that 15K she did ask for will go very quickly.

[Whimsy]

6 minutes ago, Lugal said:

It's true the CO$ did not force him to take drugs, but they put him in a position for it to happen (by cutting away and destroying every support system he had).  I have seen it too much in life where the ones who set these tragedies in motion can walk away saying: I didn't force him/her to do that...

 

She's asking for money to move to a new place and start over.  Cost of moving, as well as time spent doing all the things like getting kids into school and finding a job not to mention rent for a place (I don't know the rental market in Austin).  What's she's asking for isn't that much, and that 15K she did ask for will go very quickly.

I guess, it’s just that everyone else getting out has the same struggles and no one else has asked for money. I do wish her the best. 

[Dots And Stripes]

I thought Nathan showed a lot of maturity and perspective. He didn't blame Scientology for all his problems, he flat out said he couldn't do that. It's clear though that Scientology allowed or caused a lot of bad things to happen to him. Good for him for getting his life on track. That can't be easy to learn right from wrong when the adults you should be able to trust betray you repeatedly.

[Darknight]

How is this legal? Please someone tell me? 

[Lugal]

15 hours ago, Whimsy said:

I guess, it’s just that everyone else getting out has the same struggles and no one else has asked for money. I do wish her the best. 

I suppose it highlights the attitude we have toward people who ask for help in society, which is a whole other discussion for a different time.

[Whimsy]

1 minute ago, Lugal said:

I suppose it highlights the attitude we have toward people who ask for help in society, which is a whole other discussion for a different time.

Yeah, you're probably right.  But, to me, it's much more pronounced in this instance only because everyone involved in this show knows that the Scientology freaks are screaming "financial gain! financial gain!" as a reason they're doing this.  If it were me, I'd just be careful to not prove them right about literally anything.  But, if she really needs this- and apparently she does- and there are people willing to give to her - and apparently there are- then she can just take the money, get (hopefully) far away and make a nice life for her and her family.  

[Quilt Fairy]

Every time they highlighted page four hundred-whatever of Dianetics where Hubbard wrote that children were just "adults in small bodies" (and thereby giving justification to the punishments at the ranches) I kept thinking about people (including some posters) who have said that Hubbard was probably good-intentioned, it was David Miscaviage who ruined Scientology.  It was f*cked up from the start.

Edited October 13, 2017 by Quilt Fairy

[Rlb8031]

51 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Every time they highlighted page four hundred-whatever of Dianetics where Hubbard wrote that children were just "adults in small bodies" (and thereby giving justification to the punishments at the ranches) I kept thinking about people (including some posters) who have said that Hubbard was probably good-intentioned, it was David Miscaviage who ruined Scientology.  It was f*cked up from the start.

Every time I hear the "adults in small bodies" my brain goes to...what an incredible excuse for allowing sex with children and underage girls. Then I remember that the Commodore's Messenger Service was initially composed of mostly young teen and pre-teen girls who ran messages for Hubbard. I also recall the stories of Hubbard's treatment of his daughter after he kidnapped her (basically, he took her to Cuba with another male Scientologist and he ignored the baby to spend all of his time drinking - the guy ended up caring for her, not because he was good at it or responsible, but because he thought it was possible something could happen to her otherwise) and have to wonder what the hell was up with him and kids generally.