S02.E04: Team Cockroach

[NJRadioGuy]

On 10/6/2017 at 1:55 AM, Dowel Jones said:

If I recall correctly, The Twilight Zone had an episode that did just that, with a gambler who ended up in a casino where he won every bet and every woman worshipped him, and so forth.

 

On 10/6/2017 at 7:35 AM, Chaos Theory said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Turns out that was his Bad Place. 

 

The Twilight Zone also did another similarly-themed episode that will always, always bring a tear to my eyes. It's called The Hunt; it's about an old hunter and his hound dog discover that they've passed away and, well, just find it and watch it. It's very relevant, that's all I can say without spoiling anything.

[Mockingbird]

Maybe I’m being too optimistic, but I think, despite all of his talk about humans being cockroaches, that Michael actually likes Eleanor. The look he shot her when they were pretending to tour the neighborhood and especially their shared annoyance when Vicky started singing weren’t the interactions you’d have with a cockroach. That dirtbag from Arizona is going to win him over yet. (Also, in this paragraph, Eleanor is pronounced El-lin-er just like Ted Danson does.) 

And Jason may be literally the dumbest person, but he is loyal. Maybe knowing who’s on his team and who isn’t will help him keep his mouth shut  but probably not.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 10/5/2017 at 9:27 PM, Linny said:

Jason's face when Janet handed him the sparkler was the best. He may be the dumbest person ever, but he's also pretty damn adorable.

 

On 10/7/2017 at 9:11 AM, clack said:

Show still hasn't addressed why Michael chose Jason to psychologically torture. He's too stupid to subtly torment, as this episode again makes explicit.

Is there an in-world explanation, or did the writers add Jason for comedic effect, even though his presence doesn't make sense?

 

On 10/7/2017 at 1:39 PM, clack said:

And again, why choose Jason, who has the mental capacities of (at best) a 12-year old, out of all the millions of dead people as a subject for subtle psychological torture?  Wouldn't it be mostly wasted on him?

And yet, Jason was the only one who thought to ask Janet if she would tell Vicky the truth.  To me, it seemed out of character that he would think to ask.  Eleanor or Chidi seemed more likely to think of that possible flaw in their plan.

[AnnieBeez]

Silent Jason tortured Tahani. He was smart enough to get his bud hole. Eleanor didn't think to ask Janet for stairs up to her bedroom [Yes, I know they're hidden] or to get rid of the clowns and circus music. I hope they don't make him too stupid to breathe. He does have some insight, and he's sweet. 

[Affogato]

7 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

 

 

And yet, Jason was the only one who thought to ask Janet if she would tell Vicky the truth.  To me, it seemed out of character that he would think to ask.  Eleanor or Chidi seemed more likely to think of that possible flaw in their plan.

Still voting for holy fool. 

 

A modern hermit who who lives in a man cave version, of course. 

Edited October 9, 2017 by Affogato

[Affogato]

10 hours ago, NJRadioGuy said:

 

The Twilight Zone also did another similarly-themed episode that will always, always bring a tear to my eyes. It's called The Hunt; it's about an old hunter and his hound dog discover that they've passed away and, well, just find it and watch it. It's very relevant, that's all I can say without spoiling anything.

one of the best!

[Winston Wolfe]

10 hours ago, Mockingbird said:

Maybe I’m being too optimistic, but I think, despite all of his talk about humans being cockroaches, that Michael actually likes Eleanor.

He did tell someone (either Chidi or Vicki I believe) that he does enjoy Eleanor's company.  He doesn't seem to harbor any affection for anyone else in the Good/Bad Place.

[possibilities]

Michael and really all the others from Vicky to Shawn to the demons in between, all seem like bureaucrats just doing their jobs, not really like they are super invested in it one way or the other. They don't want to be bored, they want to be recognized and allowed to use their talents, but it's all in an eternity's work for them, as far as we've seen. It gives a new meaning to "the banality of evil".

[ByTor]

On 10/7/2017 at 11:12 PM, MDKNIGHT said:

Do people think Michael was telling the truth about HOW good somebody has to be toget to the Good Place and also do you think he was telling the truth when he said Florence Nightingale and all the philosophers didn't make it?

I absolutely do not think Michael was telling the truth.  Florence Nightingale was to fork with Eleanor.  If Eleanor suspected she didn't belong in the Good Place, knowing that Florence Nightingale didn't make it there  would make Eleanor know for sure that she didn't belong in the Good Place.  And I think telling Chidi the philosophers were in the Bad Place is because Chidi was so excited to talk to them, but since the philosophers are probably not in the Bad Place, Michael needed a bullshirt reason why Chidi wouldn't be able to talk to them.

[Delphi]

 

Best part of the episode.  Jason is just so forking adorable. 

[CherithCutestory]

Quote

He was smart enough to get his bud hole. Eleanor didn't think to ask Janet for stairs up to her bedroom [Yes, I know they're hidden] or to get rid of the clowns and circus music. I hope they don't make him too stupid to breathe. He does have some insight, and he's sweet. 

But the budhole is what eventually got him caught by Tahani so it wasn't very smart.

Eleanor knows she could ask for those things but is afraid that any changes to her "perfect" house would tip Michael off that she's not who she says she is. Michael pops in enough that he could notice any drastic changes. The Eleanor they though they had loved all of those things.

That's why she only dared to exchange one clown picture for a sexy mailman. Easy to explain away as just one minor adjustment not a total rejection of everything she's supposed to love.

 

Quote

And yet, Jason was the only one who thought to ask Janet if she would tell Vicky the truth.  To me, it seemed out of character that he would think to ask.  Eleanor or Chidi seemed more likely to think of that possible flaw in their plan.

Well, he's the only one who thinks Janet is a person not a robot (she's not a robot.) The others don't even consider that she may do something of her own volition without being commanded to do so. Because they think of her as a programmed electronic tool. She's Sexy Alexa.

Jason doesn't understand what Janet is (although nobody seems to fully understand her including Michael.) Which endears him to her and makes her more human like.

 

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Do people think Michael was telling the truth about HOW good somebody has to be toget to the Good Place and also do you think he was telling the truth when he said Florence Nightingale and all the philosophers didn't make it?

I don't know but I think it's plausible. Considering Tahani didn't make it I think almost anyone who is famous enough for us to know them probably didn't make it either. Florence Nightingale was probably deemed to have impure motives. Like she wanted the attention. This is not an attack on Florence Nightingale from me. I know she made major improvements to how hospitals were run and nursing, in general, that should earn anyone a spot. She didn't just raise money without much genuine engagement with people like Tahani. I'm  just going by show logic as we know it so far.

And most philosophers probably had a similar Chidi problem where they were too in their own heads and didn't engage with life enough to acquire points. (Although John Stuart Mill was pretty engaged with the world and did good things and he was a hero of Chidi's.)

Edited October 10, 2017 by CherithCutestory

[piewarmer]

On 10/8/2017 at 7:16 PM, Mockingbird said:

 (Also, in this paragraph, Eleanor is pronounced El-lin-er just like Ted Danson does.)

This pronunciation is really distracting for me. I notice it every time, Ted Dansen.

[cpcathy]

Danson has a way of pronouncing words that is different, I've noticed it over the past thirty five years since he started on Cheers.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

2 hours ago, cpcathy said:

Danson has a way of pronouncing words that is different, I've noticed it over the past thirty five years since he started on Cheers.

Perhaps it's a Boston pronunciation, left over from Cheers.

[cpcathy]

He went to prep school in real life, perhaps they teach fancier pronunciation there.

[Captain Carrot]

I've been thinking about how Michael restored Tahani's memory of her death. That probably means that he can restore all of their memories and undo the reboots.

Regarding when Michael has lied or told the truth. I believe him when he said there might be a way to get into the real Good Place (at least for him) because he has to know that the status quo can't last. So, he would want to escape before Shawn finds out what's been going on. But I don't believe anything he said in the pilot regarding the percentage of people that make it to the real Good Place. That was probably just him messing with Eleanor and making Tahani feel special.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

On 10/5/2017 at 6:27 PM, Linny said:

Jason's face when Janet handed him the sparkler was the best. He may be the dumbest person ever, but he's also pretty damn adorable.

I now aspire to be as delighted by everyday things as Jason was by that sparkler.

On 10/6/2017 at 9:00 AM, Blakeston said:

They've shown us that Eleanor can be a good person, and that she probably would have been a good person on earth if she hadn't been born into that awful family. They've also shown us that Chidi tried as hard to be good as he possibly could.

It seems to me the point he's making is that there's a lot more to people than just a sum total of their actions, and that we have to take their pasts, and their issues, into account.

I think that what he's saying with our four main characters is that it's not enough to want to be a good person, and it's not enough to do good things. You have to actively want to be a good person AND do good things with good intentions. Eleanor was clearly doing neither of those things while she was alive. Chidi wanted to be a good person while he was alive but his actions negatively impacted those around him. Eleanor was doing good things but she didn't have good intentions and she didn't want to be a good person. Jason was doing bad things but usually without any malice. When you think of them that way, they make the perfect four square chart!

[Mabinogia]

Quote

I now aspire to be as delighted by everyday things as Jason was by that sparkler.

That is a worthy aspiration. Jason is a genius. He is one of the very few truly happy people in the world.

[DrScottie]

On 10/10/2017 at 9:18 AM, CherithCutestory said:

Eleanor knows she could ask for those things but is afraid that any changes to her "perfect" house would tip Michael off that she's not who she says she is. Michael pops in enough that he could notice any drastic changes. The Eleanor they though they had loved all of those things.

Was there really another Eleanor Shellstrop? I don't think so. It was all for the purposes of torture to make her inadequate and a mistake. The clowns were there because Eleanor hates them. Her modest house was right next to Tahani's mansion. 

On 10/9/2017 at 2:52 PM, possibilities said:

Michael and really all the others from Vicky to Shawn to the demons in between, all seem like bureaucrats just doing their jobs, not really like they are super invested in it one way or the other.

 I don't know about that. Michael put himself out on a limb to try something different and he's precariously close to the Eternal Shriek for doing that.  As for Vicki, she seems to be a prideful demon who craves the spotlight. As for the others, many of them hate what they've been assigned to do. It's far more nuanced than just snapping people in half as part of an assembly line or immolating them so they don't care about Michael's little experiment. 

On 10/8/2017 at 10:16 PM, Mockingbird said:

(Also, in this paragraph, Eleanor is pronounced El-lin-er just like Ted Danson does.) 

Having lived in Massachusetts most of my life, that's how I pronounce it too. 

On 10/9/2017 at 6:33 AM, PuhLeeze said:

I hope they don't make him too stupid to breathe.

Didn't he die wearing a snorkel inside a closed safe without an air hole? 

[AnnaRose]

1 hour ago, DrScottie said:

 

On 10/9/2017 at 6:33 AM, PuhLeeze said:

I hope they don't make him too stupid to breathe.

Didn't he die wearing a snorkel inside a closed safe without an air hole?

Haha!  That's so funny.   You're right, he is/was too stupid to breathe.

[ByTor]

17 hours ago, DrScottie said:

On 10/10/2017 at 9:18 AM, CherithCutestory said:

Eleanor knows she could ask for those things but is afraid that any changes to her "perfect" house would tip Michael off that she's not who she says she is. Michael pops in enough that he could notice any drastic changes. The Eleanor they though they had loved all of those things.

Was there really another Eleanor Shellstrop? I don't think so. It was all for the purposes of torture to make her inadequate and a mistake. The clowns were there because Eleanor hates them. Her modest house was right next to Tahani's mansion. 

No, there wasn't another Eleanor, but Eleanor (Kristen Bell aka "fake" Eleanor) didn't know that.  If "fake" Eleanor had the clowns taken away, in her mind Michael would figure out she's "fake".  At least that's what I thought the original post was getting at.

Edited October 12, 2017 by ByTor

[AnnieBeez]

2 hours ago, AnnaRose said:

Haha!  That's so funny.   You're right, he is/was too stupid to breathe.

hahaaha! Wow! Thank you. 

[Affogato]

On 10/9/2017 at 2:52 PM, possibilities said:

Michael and really all the others from Vicky to Shawn to the demons in between, all seem like bureaucrats just doing their jobs, not really like they are super invested in it one way or the other. They don't want to be bored, they want to be recognized and allowed to use their talents, but it's all in an eternity's work for them, as far as we've seen. It gives a new meaning to "the banality of evil".

Trevor seemed invested. That group seemed like they believed in the work. 

[DrScottie]

On 10/9/2017 at 8:45 AM, Winston Wolfe said:

He did tell someone (either Chidi or Vicki I believe) that he does enjoy Eleanor's company.  He doesn't seem to harbor any affection for anyone else in the Good/Bad Place.

It was Chidi.

Most Improved Player (Season 1, Episode 8)

As Eleanor goes on the train with Trevor, Chidi confesses to killing Janet to save Michael and argues for Eleanor to stay on the basis of her self-improvement. Michael then tells Chidi that while that he enjoyed her company, it's not little league and there's no award for Most Improved Player. 

Forgot to add: Michael is surrounded by Hawaiian pizza as the Bad Place crew ordered 100 of them to his office. The worst pizza he says. 

Fun note: While Eleanor is sitting on the train, Trevor informs her that the dining car only serves room temperature Manhattan Clam Chowder and it's closed. 

Both claw chowder and Hawaiian pizza are prominent food choices this season. 

Edited October 16, 2017 by DrScottie

[Amarsir]

On 10/11/2017 at 9:07 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I think that what he's saying with our four main characters is that it's not enough to want to be a good person, and it's not enough to do good things. You have to actively want to be a good person AND do good things with good intentions. Eleanor was clearly doing neither of those things while she was alive. Chidi wanted to be a good person while he was alive but his actions negatively impacted those around him. Tahani [typo corrected] was doing good things but she didn't have good intentions and she didn't want to be a good person. Jason was doing bad things but usually without any malice. When you think of them that way, they make the perfect four square chart!

While I enjoy your line of thinking, I'm not sure it's accurate. The fourth square would be "Does good things with good intentions", and that person would be in The Good Place. Jason, when torching speed boats and slashing tires, was doing it as revenge which has to qualify as pretty malicious. That puts him in the same quadrant as Eleanor.

[lucindabelle]

On 10/8/2017 at 9:26 PM, NJRadioGuy said:

 

The Twilight Zone also did another similarly-themed episode that will always, always bring a tear to my eyes. It's called The Hunt; it's about an old hunter and his hound dog discover that they've passed away and, well, just find it and watch it. It's very relevant, that's all I can say without spoiling anything.

Memorable.

If my pets aren't in Heaven I do not want to go.

 

I hope there's more to the story of Tahani. I'm not big on intentions. Actions are what matters. The poor people she saved-- got saved. Do they care why?

[CherithCutestory]

On 10/12/2017 at 5:40 PM, Amarsir said:

While I enjoy your line of thinking, I'm not sure it's accurate. The fourth square would be "Does good things with good intentions", and that person would be in The Good Place. Jason, when torching speed boats and slashing tires, was doing it as revenge which has to qualify as pretty malicious. That puts him in the same quadrant as Eleanor.

I think Jason belongs there more than any of them. I think he was a worse person on earth than Eleanor ever was. Eleanor was so malicious that she would go to a coffee place her boyfriend hated or throw a cup on the ground. She wasn't so malicious that she'd blow up a speed boat or slash tires of a supposed friend who has every reason to be angry with her. Jason absolutely knew what he was doing. And he did those things explicitly to hurt people.

 I think Jason sort of has all of their flaws. He is ridiculously selfish more so than Eleanor (he had no issue with Chidi and Tahani going to the Bad Place for his sins last season, he framed a woman to prevent his friend from moving away.) He was in constant need of attention for the sake of recognition and attention like Tahani (which is why he revealed himself at the concert.) His self-absorption and putting his own desires first  hurt everyone around him like Chidi (his dance crew ended up wrecked anyway after he framed the girlfriend of a crew member, Pillboi ended up arrested.)

 

Quote

The poor people she saved-- got saved. Do they care why?

I do agree with you on this. I think policing intentions get to be ridiculous and ends up in a cynical place. Yes, everyone is a little selfish. So what? But with Tahani she just raised money by throwing amazing parties which she loved.She directly benefited from those parties.  It's not like she ever even sacrificed her own comfort a bit to help anyone. We don't even know that the money she raised really went to their purpose. And there are several large non-profits that end up spending very little on direct charity they claim to be supporting (although this claim can also be a bit overblown because percent of revenue to direct aid is not actually the best metric but it's true that those charities exist.) Did Tahani seem like the type to bother to find out if the money she was raising was going directly to those in need? She probably had little to no idea how that money was being spent nor did she care.

With Tahani I think her actions are just so far removed from any good that came from them.

Edited October 17, 2017 by CherithCutestory

[ByTor]

19 hours ago, CherithCutestory said:

Did Tahani seem like the type to bother to find out if the money she was raising was going directly to those in need?

Last season when Eleanor was trying to get information from people to "prove" that they weren't much better than her, Eleanor asked Tahani if she ever skimmed anything off the top, and Tahani said (paraphrasing) "Oh gracious no!  Every penny was accounted for!"  I thought that was supposed to imply that she did know the money was going to those in need.

Edited October 18, 2017 by ByTor

[CherithCutestory]

39 minutes ago, ByTor said:

Last season when Eleanor was trying to get information from people to "prove" that they weren't much better than her, Eleanor asked Tahani if she ever skimmed anything off the top, and Tahani said (paraphrasing) "Oh gracious no!  Every penny was accounted for!"  I thought that was supposed to imply that she did know the money was going to those in need.

That just means she never stole any herself. And they were all given to the non-profits. She never suggested she knew or cared what the non-profits did with them.

[ByTor]

15 minutes ago, CherithCutestory said:

That just means she never stole any herself. And they were all given to the non-profits. She never suggested she knew or cared what the non-profits did with them.

Except I thought Tahani was the nonprofit.

[RachelKM]

2 hours ago, ByTor said:

Except I thought Tahani was the nonprofit.

I don't think there has ever been any indication that Tahani provided direct aid to anyone or ran any foundations that provided such.  She was a fundraiser.  If there was anything she directly ran, I don't recall, it seems that it was more a foundation to collects donation then distributes the funds to providers of aid. 

Edited October 18, 2017 by RachelKM

[Fukui San]

In all the counting up of good deeds points and bad deeds points, if Tahani was pocketing money it would have been mentioned as a major factor against her point total. Instead it was always the insincerity of her motives that was brought up. I think we can assume that she might not be the most efficient of fund distributors, but she's not actively stealing from the funds that she does raise.

[ByTor]

49 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

I don't there has ever been any indication that Tahani provided direct aid to anyone or ran any foundations that provided such.  She was a fundraiser.  If there was anything she directly ran, I don't recall, it seems that it was more a foundation to collects donation then distributes the funds to providers of aid. 

I didn't think there was any indication that Tahani didn't directly provide the funds, so that, combined with the comment that "every penny was accounted for" gave me the impression that she was running things.  I have no idea what the showrunners meant,, it was just my opinion and my impression (which nobody is required to agree with)

[RachelKM]

42 minutes ago, Fukui San said:

In all the counting up of good deeds points and bad deeds points, if Tahani was pocketing money it would have been mentioned as a major factor against her point total. Instead it was always the insincerity of her motives that was brought up. I think we can assume that she might not be the most efficient of fund distributors, but she's not actively stealing from the funds that she does raise.

Yeah, I don't think she skimmed or pocketed.  My impression was that her major "sin" according to the rules of the show were that her motivations were purely self interested in that she cared about how people saw her, not so much the actual  good she put into the world.  She was also highly annoying with her endless name dropping.  

[snarktini]

I think it's important to remember only the best of the best get in, according to what we've been told. (So far! the story could change!) Tahani didn't have to steal. She didn't even have to have "sinned" at all. She just didn't get enough points. Nearly all people, even saviors and humanitarians, didn't get in according to Michael. Best good acts + best good intentions is the only group that makes it.

They've never explained why these 4. They don't have to be particularly bad, just the 4 Michael picked.

[Eva Marie]

In regard to Florence Nightingale: she can't be judged on the same terms as modern women in a time where her only options were to be legally a man's property or a nun (the Church's property). In fact, neither can any female human born before very recent times. Florence was actually a HUGE rebel in her day by forging her own path, while also transforming both medicine and womens' 'roles' (AND inventing pie charts!). How on Earth did she not get into The Good Place??

99% of big name philosophers were grotesque misogynists, so it makes sense why they didn't make it. Only Engels and John Mills would make the cut in that regard. Chidi never mentions that ugly detail about any of his heroes, so he isn't analytical about his life's passion AT ALL. He just treats everything they wrote as gospel.

[roamyn]

Binge watching this weekend and I just have to say to Tahani...

 

There’s nothing wrong w/dying in Cleveland!

While we probably won’t die there (live in Raleigh now), our ashes are going to be spread there.

[John Potts]

Not the funniest episode, but I like the idea of a realignment of the main five (or six, including Janet), allowing us more interesting philosophical takes.

We finally get to see Tahani's death and - wow, for somebody forever in her sister's shadow, that has to be painful. At least she can console herself with the fact that her sister is probably heading for the Bad Place herself, given she seemed about as self centred as Tahani is (OK, Michael could be lying, but you'd think if he did lie, he'd be more inclined to make her sister look better, not worse).

On ‎10‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 4:09 AM, whiporee said:

The other thing that could be going on is that all four of them really know they weren't the good people they should have been, down deep in their souls. They're in the bad place because they believe, at their core, they belong in the bad place And this whole process is to to get them to either overcome or forgive themselves for those flaws, and get to be happy in eternity. Or back to Earth for the next go round.

“The gods of the Disc have never bothered much about judging the souls of the dead, and so people only go to hell if that's where they believe, in their deepest heart, that they deserve to go. Which they won't do if they don't know about it. This explains why it is so important to shoot missionaries on sight.” Faust Eric, Terry Pratchett. Though Jason doesn't seem to think he deserves to go to The Bad Place (and only seemed to really be suffering when he had his "fellow monk" that never left his side) and most of the time seems fairly content with his lot. Maybe what makes a place heavenly is what you make of it - if you're happy with a sparkler, a hot robot ("I'm not a robot!") wife and unlimited free porn, then even hell can be heaven.

On ‎10‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 7:52 PM, possibilities said:

Michael and really all the others from Vicky to Shawn to the demons in between, all seem like bureaucrats just doing their jobs, not really like they are super invested in it one way or the other.

"The Greatest Crimes Against Humanity Are Perpetrated by People Just Doing Their Jobs" (Hannah Arendt on Adolf Eichmann). Apparently, that applies to demons as much as humans (indeed, last Season's Finale shows The Bad Place as a sort of infernal bureaucracy, further reinforcing that idea).

[aradia22]

"We will be the main ingredient in a chowder of pain."

Ugh! I didn't even think of the button to activate the stairs. I assumed real Eleanor/Vicky knew about it because she was familiar with that kind of home design style but it was because she was also a demon.

802 attempts... the longest 11 months? Wow. How has Michael managed to lie to Shawn for so long?

So we finally saw Tahani's death. Her sister is AWFUL. I hope we see her in the Bad Place at some point.

I feel like we're finally settling into the concept for season 2. Intrigued...

Edited August 18, 2019 by aradia22

[aradia22]

Quote

But with Tahani she just raised money by throwing amazing parties which she loved.She directly benefited from those parties.  It's not like she ever even sacrificed her own comfort a bit to help anyone. We don't even know that the money she raised really went to their purpose.

I feel like they didn't want to make Tahani too evil so she could be redeemed. Otherwise, they would acknowledge that in real life, someone as wealthy as she is would have probably gotten her money by exploiting others in some way (or through her husband or parents or sister doing so). They rarely talk about her consumption in a meaningful way. I assume there are yachts and private jets and blood diamonds. Even the flowers she gets for her parties have a big impact on that scale.