S07.E07: The Dragon And The Wolf

[Lady S.]

13 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

I believe she's said she makes exceptions if she believes a scene is empowering and not gratuitous (like when she walked out of the fire), but my understanding is that she keeps a no-nudity clause in her contract. A protracted, naked sex scene doesn't strike me as fitting her criteria. (I pass no negative judgment on this, BTW, and say good for her.)

Yes, that was her explanation after 6.04 but I don't think she ever mentioned a contract clause. People have been saying for years that she ruled out nudity entirely to the point that some doubted those were her boobs in s6, even though she's never said anything like that. The post-6.04 interviews were the first time she felt the need to make her stance clear and that was just over 1 year ago, when people had already been treating it as fact that she'd never do nudity under any circumstances. (Sorry for being a pedant, it sounds like I care way more about Emilia nudity than I actually do. Kitten's ass was all I was after in that scene.)

[Calamity Jane]

Forgive if this was explained (watching in an environment where I don't get captions but do get lots of distractions) - how did things end with Euron?  Is he dead?  If not, will he be taking some part of the fleet to fetch those Golden Company sell-swords? Will someone else go if he is dead?  Or did everyone switch over to Theon once Euron was bested by him?  It does seem a bit of a fly in the ointment for Cersei's big plan if there's nobody left to go get her fearsome fighters.  

[BitterApple]

5 minutes ago, Calamity Jane said:

Forgive if this was explained (watching in an environment where I don't get captions but do get lots of distractions) - how did things end with Euron?  Is he dead?  If not, will he be taking some part of the fleet to fetch those Golden Company sell-swords? Will someone else go if he is dead?  Or did everyone switch over to Theon once Euron was bested by him?  It does seem a bit of a fly in the ointment for Cersei's big plan if there's nobody left to go get her fearsome fighters.  

Cersei explained that Euron storming off to sail back to the Iron Islands was just a ruse. He's really on his way to Essos to pick up and transport the mercenary army back to King's Landing. 

I'm still not understanding her logic though, especially with the way Jaime laid it out and told her they lose the war either way. She seems hell bent on self-destruction at this point.

Edited August 28, 2017 by BitterApple

[Casually Observant]

1 hour ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Why was Tyrion creeping in the hallway after Jon went into Dany's cabin?

It looked to me like Tyrion had conjured the courage to go to Dany's cabin also, but Jon boy beat him to it.  Drats!

One last thought--why would Rhaegar name his baby boy after...his other son? Rhaegar's son by Elia Martell was also named Aegon.

Because his two children and wife Elia had just been killed, so he still wanted the name of his great-grandfather Aegon V (I think?) to be passed on to his remaining son, Aegon VII.

 

38 minutes ago, STRIDER1 said:

4) of course the ice dragon breathes ice now and NK rides him like a little pony at the annual state fair

No - the ice dragon still breathes fire, thus the melting and destruction of The Wall.

 

33 minutes ago, bmoore4026 said:

:(

Well, to be fair, just because the two gay dudes were killed, you can't say it was 'only' because they were gay?  What about everyone else who died and wasn't a gay dude? 

 

31 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

Does Tyrion somehow know Jon and Dany are related, or was he just concerned at the end about the messiness of a relationship between them because of their alliance?

No, he clearly doesn't know that. The only ones who do are Sam and Bran.  He was concerned for another reason - maybe because when Dany was not romantically involved (yet) with Jon, Tyrion was her most trusted advisor. Now, he's just the third wheel and probably feels a little sad and left out.

 

21 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

Why did we never see Theon ask Dany for help saving Yara? 

That was my question!  Why didn't Theon ask for Yara's release before they all left King's Landing? Especially when it appeared they were going to be Allies?  Seems odd that he didn't do so.

[Etta Place]

I'm glad Jaime finally walked away from Cersei (and glad she let him do it).

When they showed the Night King riding on the dragon in close-up it was so cheesy - he just bobbed up and down on it like they had green-screened him on a carousel.

Did Sam seriously say he had transcribed the maester's diary including the entry about Lyanna Stark's secret marriage and still never thought about it at all? You'd think it would have at least stuck in his mind as an interesting tidbit to tell his buddy Jon if he ever saw him again.

I know that Littlefinger was a weasel, but I didn't like/believe his groveling ending. 

[Calamity Jane]

1 minute ago, BitterApple said:

Cersei explained that Euron storming off to sail back to the Iron Islands was just a ruse. He's really on his way to Essos to pick up and transport the mercenary army back to King's Landing. 

So Theon did not kill him there on the beach?  At least some of the Ironborn seemed to be ready to go with Theon to rescue Yara, but it wasn't clear to me if Euron survived the encounter or not.  If he did, how much of the fleet is left for him?  If he didn't, will someone else go if everyone didn't defect to Theon?  

[madam magpie]

1 hour ago, enoughcats said:

Jorah could rock a lot of worlds that Jon just doesn't move. 

Amen to this!

[BitterApple]

3 minutes ago, Calamity Jane said:

So Theon did not kill him there on the beach?  At least some of the Ironborn seemed to be ready to go with Theon to rescue Yara, but it wasn't clear to me if Euron survived the encounter or not.  If he did, how much of the fleet is left for him?  If he didn't, will someone else go if everyone didn't defect to Theon?  

I'm sorry, I misread your comment. The guy Theon fought on the beach was one of Yara's men, not Euron. I don't know if Theon killed him or just knocked him out. The two actors do look eerily similar though, so I can see where it would be confusing. 

Edited August 28, 2017 by BitterApple

[Delta1212]

1 minute ago, Calamity Jane said:

So Theon did not kill him there on the beach?  At least some of the Ironborn seemed to be ready to go with Theon to rescue Yara, but it wasn't clear to me if Euron survived the encounter or not.  If he did, how much of the fleet is left for him?  If he didn't, will someone else go if everyone didn't defect to Theon?  

That wasn't Euron. It was an Ironborn follower of Yara's that kind of looked like Euron from some angles.

[Casually Observant]

14 minutes ago, MerBearStare said:

I was very confused by this as well. Someone in the comments section of youtube (reliable source, I know) said the showrunners have indicated that Tyrion is in love with Dany, but I hope that that's not true. One, because I like their friendship and advisor/advisee relationship and not every male/female relationship has to be romantic and two, as much as I love Dany, not every man needs to fall in love with her.

Of course Tyrion is in love with Dany.  I believe he said so in a conversation to someone else last season. Something to the effect that "she's beautiful, she's brilliant, she's good and she flies on a dragon. Who wouldn't fall in love with her?"  (Someone will be able to find the exact quote, I'm sure.)

1 minute ago, Calamity Jane said:

So Theon did not kill him there on the beach?  At least some of the Ironborn seemed to be ready to go with Theon to rescue Yara, but it wasn't clear to me if Euron survived the encounter or not.  If he did, how much of the fleet is left for him?  If he didn't, will someone else go if everyone didn't defect to Theon?  

No, Theon wasn't fighting Euron on the beach. Theon was fighting one of the men on the boat that grabbed him up out of the sea when he was half drowned. The man and his merry group were what was left of Yara's group of supporters, I think. 

[CeeBeeGee]

23 minutes ago, DrScottie said:

I don't think we have seen Yara with a man. As for "Up for anything," I think it was more that unlike Euron, Dany wouldn't have to sleep with Yara in return for the troop transports, just support her claim for the islands. I don't think being "up for anything" is necessarily a statement of bisexuality on Yara's part. Instead, she was making a pass at Dany and would certainly be welcome to any advances on her part.

Yara at least hinted she was bi in the scene on the ship with Ellaria, when Ellaria said "a man in every port?" and Yara replied "a man...or a woman..."

[Joimiaroxeu]

Heh, "You're late, silver-haired bitch." "Sorry, not sorry. Why you mad tho?"

Dickless Theon FTW!

SANSA! YAAAASSS, QUEEN! Or acting queen, anyway. Ding, dong, the Littlefinger is dead. You should've assumed the worst, Petyr.

But someone did walk away from you, Cersei. Oh look, is that your face in the floor?

So Danys about to get knocked up with an incest baby. Oy. If only Bran had opened his mouth sooner.

The zombie dragon was seven seasons worth waiting for. 

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Oh, I just realized something - Didn't season six of True Blood end with a bunch of zombies descending on our unsuspecting heroes?  

Speaking of True Blood, I'd love it if, when the battle finally ensues, one of the "good guys" yells, "Y'all about to get even deader, you dead-ass motherfcukers." #ripcooter

[Calamity Jane]

7 minutes ago, Delta1212 said:

That wasn't Euron. It was an Ironborn follower of Yara's that kind of looked like Euron from some angles.

Well, pfooooey to that.  I was distracted by various grandkid goings-on through that part.  Dang, wish he'd been able to knock Euron off.  

[voiceover]

3 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I still hate Cersei’s wig. I don’t understand how the show could spend thousands and thousands on costumes and won’t shell out for a good hairstylist and quality wigs. 

This, this, THIS!

They could've done Season One Law &  Order:SVU/Mariska Hargitay.  Or Season One Castle/ Stana Katic.

Instead we got original recipe Parent Trap/Hayley Mills-as-Cali-twin.

Edited August 28, 2017 by voiceover

[CletusMusashi]

2 hours ago, bmoore4026 said:

Wasn't that the name of one of the Ghostbusters?  Ooo, that could be another reboot right there. Jon, Tyrion, Grey Worm, and Jorah put on Proton Packs and bust ghosts.  Daenerys starts wearing weird glasses and talking in a pronounced Brooklyn accent.

Not Danaerys though. I picture it with Gilly.

[CletusMusashi]

1 hour ago, doram said:

Therefore, a Targaryen bastard would have been Waters. 

Bran should not have said that Jon was Jon Sand but that he was Jon Waters.

Now I'm just trying to picture the actual John Waters becoming a cast member next season. Bonus points if he's Arya's new water dancing instructor.

[Star Aristille]

So Littlefinger kills Jon Arryn and Lysa, betrays Ned and Cat, and expects Lord Royce, a man who knew Ned and Cat and served the Arryns, to save his ass?

Damn.  Littlefinger did not think that through, did he?

[CletusMusashi]

So who's in charge of The Vale now? Nipple Boy? 

[Lady S.]

13 minutes ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Yara at least hinted she was bi in the scene on the ship with Ellaria, when Ellaria said "a man in every port?" and Yara replied "a man...or a woman..."

Yeah, and the scene where Theon felt her up is somehow grosser to me if she normally avoided dudes altogether. (For those who don't remember, she stopped him groping her boobs only because it interfered with her steering the horse. His hand then moved into her pants unhindered. Yeah, this show loves incest.)

[Traveller519]

Night King has to be all,

 

"Sweet guys. I can finally scout south of the wall. Heading out. I'll kill what I cam with Dragon, report back soon "

 

Right? RIGHT?! 

[TaurusRose]

1 hour ago, EyesGlazed said:

Just like I thought:  Operation NitWight accomplished nothing except giving the Night King a new weapon with which to destroy the planet.

Cersei, you treacherous bitch.  I hope you watch Jaime get killed and then give agonizing birth to a troll before being stabbed in the gut with the Ice King's javelin.

Why was Tyrion skulking outside Dany's room looking all sad that Jon and Dany were, uh, together?  He wants a successor to Dany, right?  And even if he too believes she can't get pregnant, then what's the harm in a fling between allies?

I don't care if Jon is too honest, I heart him anyway.  I really wish they'd shown more of the love scene between him and Dany.

Who is coming for the Mountain?

Jaime, maybe you grew a little bit of spine, but what good are you to anyone now?

How utterly useless is Bran???  Has he ever prevented an evil or provided useful information in a timely way??

Wow!  I like it!

[Casually Observant]

12 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

Yeah, and the scene where Theon felt her up is somehow grosser to me if she normally avoided dudes altogether. (For those who don't remember, she stopped him groping her boobs only because it interfered with her steering the horse. His hand then moved into her pants unhindered. Yeah, this show loves incest.)

If I remember correctly, Yara recognized him as her brother, but he did not recognize her as his sister. She egged him on sexually for fun, then surprised him with the fact that she was his sister to humiliate him.

[Star Aristille]

So just to get things straight . . . everything that's happened between the Starks and the Lannisters has been because Littlefinger started it?  I just need that confirmed.  If so, no wonder Sansa, Arya, and Bran were all okay with him being killed.

[voiceover]

I just watched Jon & Theon again.  "You're a Greyjoy...and a Stark."

I can't remember the last time this show made me cry, but this did it.

[Lady S.]

I just realized the only reason Cersei couldn't let Frankenmountain kill Tyrion was because she'd planned the fake alliance offer and murdering Dany's hand would ruin that trick. Her storming off was an act and if Tyrion hadn't been stupid enough to go after her she could have just said Jaime convinced her to do the right thing.

[Sofie Fatale]

Cersei + Jaime = incest!!

Jon + Dany = WINCEST!!

?

[TVbitch]

umm, uhh, errrr. Well, it was quite a bit of and  wasn't it. 

[Lemuria]

4 hours ago, Couver said:

In hindsight the wight hunt now looks really really foolish. It doesn't seem like the NK had a sure plan to bring down the wall. They clearly weren't going to swim into the water by Eastwatch. Without Viserion the wally very likely could have stopped or halted him!

I touched on this in a post in the book talk thread:  the sea to the east of Eastwatch is freezing over.  They show this on the map at the beginning, when it moves up to show the Wall and (this season) Eastwatch.  The NK was marching his army to Eastwatch even before the plan to get a wight was hatched.  He wasn't doing it to keep his army in shape.  To me, it seems clear that he intended to flank the Wall and march his army around it over the frozen sea. 

Edited August 28, 2017 by Lemuria

[Mackey]

Seven seasons of perturbations, machinations, annihilations,  and revelations. But, it all comes down to dragons. Sigh.

[Daisy]

58 minutes ago, Star Aristille said:

So just to get things straight . . . everything that's happened between the Starks and the Lannisters has been because Littlefinger started it?  I just need that confirmed.  If so, no wonder Sansa, Arya, and Bran were all okay with him being killed.

Yeah. In season five when Littlefinger saves Sansa (well 'saves' Sansa) he takes her to the Eyrie. that's when Lysa starts blabbing how this has always been their plan, like she poisoned Jon Arryn  (I can't remember why this was important, like I can't remember why Arryn's death was important because I don't know what the point of Ned being HotK was to Littlefinger's plan). 

In Season 1, Baelish tells Catlyn that the dagger was his - but he lost it betting (something that Jaime was involved in) and that Tyrion won the dagger. Cat, knowing that there was already something fishy going on, jumped on it.

but as someone pointed out. When it comes out that you killed Jon Arryn, basically set up for Ned Stark to die, and killed Lysa Arryn, are you really expecting the Eyrie commander to be all "sure, I'll help you back home." I read in some places that some people were disappointed that's how Baelish died - and to me, I think that's perfect. he couldn't smooth talk his way out of it - and once you crack that facade - you babble, simper, whine and beg. the exact same thing happened with Joffrey when you cracked that shell (before he became king). And I think he just maneuvered himself one too many times - by ultimately not knowing his opponent. basically stating Arya wants to be lady of winterfell - was his undoing. claiming the North would have helped him vs. his ultimate goal of sitting on the Throne (i'm assuming with Sansa due to his obssession) - but as Sansa pointed out. 

 

You loved my mother.. yet betrayed her. 

So good. 

[Star Aristille]

3 minutes ago, Daisy said:

Yeah. In season five when Littlefinger saves Sansa (well 'saves' Sansa) he takes her to the Eyrie.

That was season four, actually.

[scrb]

Tyrion got played by Cersei again or is he, along with Dany and Jon, playing the game knowing Cersei will betray them?

It's important to the plot that Bran tell Jon who he really is (but maybe he no longer cares after Dany rocked his world).

But there are a few more urgent things he could be telling him, like the zombie dragon busting through Eastwatch and Cersei bringing over the mercenary army.  Though if the mercenary army is so bad ass, what are they doing in Essos, away from the main action?  How did they build up such a rep just among the "barbarians" in Essos?

I think they should have told her that the Night King took down one of the dragons and now likely has a zombie dragon among his forces.  What is the point in not saying?  They will know soon enough there are only 2 dragons around Dany.  That should be a more compelling argument, that the NK can kill dragons with a single javelin throw.

[Daisy]

Okay.  the only thing that's going to keep me from freaking out about the night being long and full of no Show - is that Outlander starts in two weeks. woo. but. onto GoT. 

With an Episode this long, I was really hoping, like what they do with a lot of these imagery titles. - was a focus on said Dragon and Wolf. And by that I actually mean Rhaegar and Lyanna. There is still a heck of a lot of "why" left to be answered. 

That clip answered our questions from last week (at least for me) that Lyanna wasn't forced into anything. She looked happy as punch marrying Rhaegar. (which. Yay). and they were in Dorne. but so many whys. 

1: Why didn't Lyanna say anything to Robert?/Her family (or. you know in a GRRM/Show twist - maybe Lyanna did. maybe she did send a Raven, and Robert was so incensed and mad, he thought it was some Silver-Hair Bastard lying trick  or she was being forced to do it). at the end, she feared for baby Aegon's life if Robert found out about him) - with all that blood etc, I wonder if the pregnancy was always troubling

 

2: Why was it such a hush hush secret? I mean - Dorne was connected politically (of course via marriage) - but i mean would there have been this big rebellion of North/Eyrie/Stormlands (later Lannisport) vs. Targaeryans had Rhaegar just been  - I love Lyanna, she loves me, suck it robert, we're getting married?  (I mean from what we know of Aegon the Mad King - eventually some drama was going to happen there anyway - so maybe Rhaegar needed to keep it hush hush until he was able to overthrow Aegon, thus needed the Dorne political power?)

I just felt that this could have worked had they cut even 15 minutes of the Summit Meeting and just intercut with some more Dragon and Wolf 1.0 scenes. 


Still well played that we actually don't know if Cersei is pregnant or not. but she's using it very deftly as a weapon. As well as her children's deaths. And again, It's that fine line of... does she really believe in what she's saying (like if Tywin was alive maybe there is no revenge plot, and I don't get stupid and bring in those fanatics which made me walk naked, and didn't let me do Trial by Combat, thus making me blow up the Sept and my baby boy jumping out the window).  or is it ust. meh. use what i've got.  

And the amazing thing is - I don't really know if Cersei is really lamenting over Tywin's death - or likes using it as a weapon as she does everything. I will admit to being naive - I did think Cersei had  change of heart (but well played on the twist). Euron's all "peace out homies, see you in the spring" action was funny  but yah makes sense he's off to get the Golden Company. (also. I did like how Cersei was like she brought two dragons so she's like she wouldn't leave just one. making me think it would have behooved Dany to only bring 1 but eh). 

Jamie vs. Cersei. that one really shocked me, and I wonder how much of Brienne's "Fuck Loyalty!" was still ringing in his ears (that plus whole you know. I saw them fight, Cersei."  I was afraid for Jaime i that moment. I was half expecting him to toss his gold hand away. 

Jon's i'm not gonna lie - speech. I can see both sides. Yah. just lie. but the thing is -his point is also true. he could easily have lied - and then it puts the nugget in dany's head that i can lie to get what i want (even if it's important)  swearing Fealty (or even 'neutrality' to the family/figure head that the entire north blames (well until now) for the destruction of the Starks wouldn't fly very well either. Jon  is and has always been loyal to his words and vows - so expecting him to lie now makes no sense. Even if we think it's dumb. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

That awkward reunion at the dragon pit was like a hilarious version of Downton Abbey where everyone politely stares at each other but the stares are fraught with meaning after the initial "What are you doing here?" "No, what are YOU doing here?" Loved that we got some good but brief conversations with people who haven't seen each other in years.

Qyburn's obvious fascination with the wight parts was both hilarious and creepy. You know he wanted to gather up all the parts and take them down to his lab so he could tinker with them.

4 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Bran is all of a sudden revealing family secrets to Sam, (a guy he met one time), about Jon's parentage, but hasn't told Arya or Sansa?

I think it's a combination of Bran needing time to digest the huge amount of information he has been given access to now that he's the three eyed raven and knowing that Sam is loyal to Jon but has no stake in the Stark/Targaryen houses. Arya definitely loves Jon and Sansa trusts him, but as trueborn Starks who expect their brother to rule as King of the North, how will they react to the news? Would Sansa tell him the news immediately so that she can be the Lady of Winterfell? Would either sister want to keep the news from him so that he doesn't go to Kings Landing? They know Cersei won't allow anyone to challenge her rule, so would they keep this information a secret in the hopes of protecting Jon? Sure, he's openly rebelling against Cersei as King of the North, but if he were to claim that he's the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, she would want him killed immediately and I'm sure Sansa knows that.

4 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I sensed Sansa knew what was up, when Littlefinger asked her what Arya would gain from Sansa's death and Sansa replied, "to be Lady if Winterfell" and I was like, Sansa knows dawn well Arya doesn't want to be lady of anything.  That's when I knew she was playing Littlefinger.

Even though people were speculating about Sansa and Arya playing Littlefinger (and I was hoping that was the case rather than Sansa and Arya really being at odds with each other due to a supreme lack of communication), that was the moment when I definitely knew Sansa was playing Littlefinger because she knows that Arya has never had any desire to be a lady. This is the little girl who hated sewing and learning about house sigils and wanted to run around the castle playing with her brothers' weapons. And after reuniting, Sansa knows that Arya STILL doesn't want to be a lady. But A+ to the sisters for playing Littlefinger like a violin. That was glorious to behold. I will miss that sneaky scheming bastard, always stylishly and impeccably dressed, but this was a long time coming. My only quibble is I'm almost certain that someone (Ned? Syrio?) once told Arya to always clean her sword before putting it back in the scabbard so when she cut Littlefinger's neck and then just jammed that knife back in, I was like nooooooo! Now you will need to disinfect inside the knife holder too and you'll never truly be rid of his cooties!

3 hours ago, Libby96 said:

Bran: "I became the three-eyed raven."

Sam:  "Ooooh!  ....... I don't know what that means."

Something about his delivery of that line was just perfect.

One thing I really loved about it is that Bran keeps saying that to people like he thinks everyone already knows what it means, but the response is always, "Uhhhhh, okay - but WTF? Is that code for something?"

3 hours ago, TaraS1 said:

Also, can someone please tell DB Weiss that it's Cer-SEE, not Cer-SAY?! You write the show, for crying out loud, how do you not know how to pronounce it?! lol

That drives me crazy in every interview/behind the scenes video where he mentions her.

3 hours ago, Lady S. said:

So, can we call Jon a dragonrider now? Or just say that was two dragons riding each other.

The dragon with two backs?

3 hours ago, TaraS1 said:

So Bran's really just the two-and-a-half eyed raven?  Clearly I'm lost on how his visions and knowledge work...or don't.

4 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

It's like getting Wikipedia downloaded into your head, you have all the info, but you don't see it until you know to look for it.

@AimingforYoko explained it better than I was going to!

[HunterHunted]

3 hours ago, Daisy said:

Yeah. In season five when Littlefinger saves Sansa (well 'saves' Sansa) he takes her to the Eyrie. that's when Lysa starts blabbing how this has always been their plan, like she poisoned Jon Arryn  (I can't remember why this was important, like I can't remember why Arryn's death was important because I don't know what the point of Ned being HotK was to Littlefinger's plan).

Because Jon Arryn was savvy, trusted by Robert, and had figured out that Cersei's kids were not Robert's. I think they were hoping that Tywin would be Hand once Jon Arryn was dead, but Robert named Ned because he didn't trust anyone else around him. After Ned was appointed, I think they expected that Ned wouldn't figure out that Cersei's kids weren't Robert's. Once they realized that Ned figured it out, they trusted that Ned was too nice and honorable to go straight to Robert, which was true. Ned went to Cersei in hopes that if she admitted her treason that Ned could convince Robert to spare Cersei's and the kids' lives and just banish them.

Quote

In Season 1, Baelish tells Catlyn that the dagger was his - but he lost it betting (something that Jaime was involved in) and that Tyrion won the dagger. Cat, knowing that there was already something fishy going on, jumped on it.

but as someone pointed out. When it comes out that you killed Jon Arryn, basically set up for Ned Stark to die, and killed Lysa Arryn, are you really expecting the Eyrie commander to be all "sure, I'll help you back home." I read in some places that some people were disappointed that's how Baelish died - and to me, I think that's perfect. he couldn't smooth talk his way out of it - and once you crack that facade - you babble, simper, whine and beg. the exact same thing happened with Joffrey when you cracked that shell (before he became king). And I think he just maneuvered himself one too many times - by ultimately not knowing his opponent. basically stating Arya wants to be lady of winterfell - was his undoing. claiming the North would have helped him vs. his ultimate goal of sitting on the Throne (i'm assuming with Sansa due to his obssession) - but as Sansa pointed out. 

 

You loved my mother.. yet betrayed her. 

So good. 

Littlefinger only works in the shadows and in secret. It's not surprising that when challenged directly he'd have no skills.

3 hours ago, Daisy said:

That clip answered our questions from last week (at least for me) that Lyanna wasn't forced into anything. She looked happy as punch marrying Rhaegar. (which. Yay). and they were in Dorne. but so many whys. 

1: Why didn't Lyanna say anything to Robert?/Her family (or. you know in a GRRM/Show twist - maybe Lyanna did. maybe she did send a Raven, and Robert was so incensed and mad, he thought it was some Silver-Hair Bastard lying trick  or she was being forced to do it). at the end, she feared for baby Aegon's life if Robert found out about him) - with all that blood etc, I wonder if the pregnancy was always troubling

Lyanna didn't say anything to her family because legally it wasn't a decision she could make. The men in her family decided she belonged to Robert. She belongs to her father or her husband. She has no agency to run off and marry who she wants. Say it wasn't Rhaegar. It was Howland Reed. The Starks could have dueled with Reed for her. If they win, the give her to Robert if he still wants her. Or they could have forced her to become a septa.

Lyanna couldn't just write a note to say that she was in love with Rhaegar. That's not a decision she can make. When this story began women had no agency. They couldn't make their own decisions and especially not about who to marry. Remeber, Viserys sold Dany to Drogo. 

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2: Why was it such a hush hush secret? I mean - Dorne was connected politically (of course via marriage) - but i mean would there have been this big rebellion of North/Eyrie/Stormlands (later Lannisport) vs. Targaeryans had Rhaegar just been  - I love Lyanna, she loves me, suck it robert, we're getting married?  (I mean from what we know of Aegon the Mad King - eventually some drama was going to happen there anyway - so maybe Rhaegar needed to keep it hush hush until he was able to overthrow Aegon, thus needed the Dorne political power?)

Westeros would likely still have ended up in chaos. Robert is insulted because Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar so he has beef with the Starks and the Targaryens. The Dornish are pissed because all of Rhaegar's children with Elia are out of the line of succession and likely to be killed to prevent them from becoming a threat to any kids Rhaegar had with Lyanna. The Starks have no other daughters to marry to Robert. To make Robert whole (marriage to another great house), Aerys would have had force a marriage between Robert and Cersei or Robert and Catelyn, which would break the Tully agreement to marry a Stark. I'd also imagine that the Baratheons would have also demanded gold from the Starks and the Targaryens too. I imagine that the Lannisters and Tullys would have also negotiated that the Targaryens supply the dowry for the woman Robert would eventually marry.

So even formally acknowledging the marriage of Rhaegar and Lynna costs the crown a lot of money and breaks old bonds and ties and would still have had at least two, maybe three or more, of the great houses in open rebellion against the crown. Also the Targaryens never conquered Dorne.

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Still well played that we actually don't know if Cersei is pregnant or not. but she's using it very deftly as a weapon. As well as her children's deaths. And again, It's that fine line of... does she really believe in what she's saying (like if Tywin was alive maybe there is no revenge plot, and I don't get stupid and bring in those fanatics which made me walk naked, and didn't let me do Trial by Combat, thus making me blow up the Sept and my baby boy jumping out the window).  or is it ust. meh. use what i've got.  

And the amazing thing is - I don't really know if Cersei is really lamenting over Tywin's death - or likes using it as a weapon as she does everything.

I'm going to quote myself from the book thread:

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Tyrion killing Tywin made the Lannisters more vulnerable because the biggest vulnerability the Lannisters have is Cersei. When Tywin was alive, she never would have acted against him. Tywin was planning on marrying her off to Loras. Myrcella was dead the moment the Mountain squeezed Oberyn's head like a grape. Tywin was still alive when Oberyn died. Even after Tywin died, Uncle Kevan came in to help. Cersei wouldn't listen to Uncle Kevan. She empowered the Faith Militant because she didn't like the power and influence the Tyrells had. She blew up the Great Sept because she couldn't get control of the dog she unleashed in the Faith Militant. If she cared about the Lannisters, she wouldn't have let Uncle Kevan die in the Great Sept. She should have kept Margaery back in the Red Keep to keep as a hostage Queen until Margaery pops out a couple of heirs. Heck if she had any sense, she would have saved Loras too. She could have a couple more of Jaime's kids, passed them off as Loras', stolen Highgarden, and it would have all been completely legal. Tywin was right. She's not as smart as she thinks she is.

Cersei isn't smart enough to realize that Tywin won the the war against the North at the Red Wedding without spilling a single drop of Lannister blood. He got other people to do exactly what he wanted. Cersei doesn't understand that Tywin negotiated for things. He didn't always use force. What he couldn't negotiate, he'd buy, and what he couldn't buy, he'd destroy. Cersei is all fist. She wants to crush everything. She can't be trusted.

 

Edited August 28, 2017 by HunterHunted

[thegreathoo]

Tyrion is one step out.  He proved to be a weak unreliable advisor.  If Dany finds out he failed in negotiations  again, it will not be pretty.  He's got reasons to be concerned about his status.  Maybe that's the reason he made peace with Cersei.

 

Jamie parting with Cersei was weird.  He has a kid on the way.  Where is he going?  I just can't imagine him arriving in the North without the army, saying Cersei lied but Im here to represent the army.  And doesn't he have anyone who will follow him but must ride alone?

I expect Jamie to die because Bran remembers.

 

 

The topic of a "just" murder came up again.  Lannisters for the most part kill real threats and do not exercise killing for game.  Joffrey was the exception.  Tyrion killed his father when his life was threatened.  Cersei killed Ned and the septans when they threatened her power.

Ramsey Bolton killed for game.

Dany killed for disobedience, not power threat.  That's a little wild, closer to game killing.

And now we have Sansa and Arya killing because they want to, which is closer to Ramsey.

In all this Lannisters seem pretty stately.  I hope Jon can fix up Dany in that regard.  Im starting to cheer for the Lannisters, they seem most civilized.

Edited August 28, 2017 by thegreathoo

[Star Aristille]

13 hours ago, thegreathoo said:

And now we have Sansa and Arya killing because they want to, which is closer to Ramsey.

No, Arya killed Littlefinger because he was a threat to their family.  Sansa said it herself as his trial began.  Once they finally realized that he was the one who set things in motion to put their family on the path to their misery and ruin, he was rightly determined to be a threat to them and had to be eliminated.  Which is exactly what Arya did.

So yes, they did want to.  But they also had to.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Star Aristille

[Star Aristille]

35 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

Littlefinger only works in the shadows and in secret. It's not surprising that when challenged directly he'd have no skills.

Sansa herself knew that, I think, from her confrontation with him last season over whether or not he knew what Ramsey would do to her.  He was left completely speechless and blindsided.  From there, I'm fairly sure Sansa knew that the best way to beat Littlefinger at his own game was to catch him totally off guard in addition to confronting him directly.

[charmed1]

5 hours ago, The Companion said:

We didn't see him die on screen, so I refuse to believe he didn't make it and isn't hightailing it to Winterfell until proven otherwise.

That's how I feel about Olenna Tyrell. I'm still holding out hope for that mean old dame.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1 hour ago, thegreathoo said:

The topic of a "just" murder came up again.  Lannisters for the most part kill real threats and do not exercise killing for game.  Joffrey was the exception.  Tyrion killed his father when his life was threatened.  Cersei killed Ned and the septans when they threatened her power.

Ramsey Bolton killed for game.

Dany killed for disobedience, not power threat.  That's a little wild, closer to game killing.

And now we have Sansa and Arya killing because they want to, which is closer to Ramsey.

In all this Lannisters seem pretty stately.  I hope Jon can fix up Dany in that regard.  Im starting to cheer for the Lannisters, they seem most civilized.

So I guess it was really civilized of Tywin to put Tyrion on trial for Joffrey's death even though he knew Tyrion wasn't the one who killed Joffrey. And it was civilized when Cersei put a price on Tyrion's head.

[Chinspinner]

I have just caught up with the last episode: -

1)      Over the last two episodes, the walking and talking scenes have been some of the best of the series.

2)      Euron Greyjoy is irritating as a character, it is too much, too try hard. He does not have the quiet, sadistic, psychopathic threat of Ramsay Bolton, he is a clown. I am glad he returned to the Iron Island.

3)      That overlong, pregnant pause before the white walker came out the box was superb. That one moment made the whole silly plan and the loss of the dragon worthwhile.  

4)      Jon Snow is an idiot (like father, like son), and no one made the return of prisoners a stipulation of the agreement- disloyal bunch.

5)      The Tyrion/ Cersei scene was great. The Jon/ Daenerys scene that followed, less so. This is the difference between strong, compelling characters, and slightly muddled, cardboard characters.

I paused the episode here, it seemed a natural break.

[Chinspinner]

I’ve got around to watching the rest: -

1)      Finally, the Arya/ Sansa storyline was resolved. They were far too easily duped by Baelish, it had to be a set up. His downfall was an entertaining scene.  

2)      Cersei was lying, a scene that everyone and their cat knew was coming. How do the Lannister’s have the iron bank still? Surely, they lost the gold when attacked by Daenerys. What the hell is this 10,000-strong army nonsense (Golden something)? Why are they just waiting around for a war to fight? This smacks of deus ex machina.

3)      Bran is very selective in the visions he has; he seems to see things that suit the plot, and nothing that doesn’t, it is very convenient.

4)      Incest!

5)      The destruction of the wall by the zombie dragon was a strong ending.

A good episode overall.

[phane00]

It's good to know that despite Jon's total lack of ability to lie to a known enemy, his loyalty and truthful nature didn't truly sway the vote.  Cersei and Euron never planned to join them in the first place.  But it did give him more points to score with his auntie.  So... yay?

The sudden trial of Littlefinger was a nice bonding moment for the Stark siblings.  A good way to clear the air, and mend the family ties.  I think that Arya is really warming up to Sansa's management style.

So, we'll have Euron and his teleporter bringing in the 20k mercenaries from the East, which should take about 2 episodes.  At least Theon should have a clear path to rescue his sister, unless she's aboard Euron's ship.

Jaime's departure was a surprise.  It certainly took him long enough to figure out that everyone was right about his sister.  I wonder if Bronn is sticking around KL or opted to leave with him.  At least Dany finally gains an intelligent military advisor. 

[rozen]

Sansa and Arya worked him like pros, though I'm sure a lot of the nasty things they said to each other when he was listening had some truth to them. Hence Arya's apology on the wall. The one time LF is under-informed, he overreaches with disastrous consequences. No matter how rebellious a child Arya was, he couldn't dream she could aspire to anything else other than being a powerful Lady. When all three turned to look at LF in the great hall, I shivered! It was like when Sansa let those dogs loose on Ramsay, hungry, angry, and the quarry had no escape.  LF should have bounced the second Bran quoted 'chaos is a ladder' at him. The remains of the Stark pack devouring him is exactly what I think Catelyn would have wanted.

Rumors of this 'treaty' are going to burn thorugh King's Landing like wildfire. This is going to bite Ceresei in the butt if the North wins. The crux of her reign is 'better the devil you know who follows the rules, generally.' That's kind of shot to hell when everyone hears the evil foreigner usurper whore dropped everything to go save them from the Long Night. Ok, they've foreshadowed Dany's fecundity with a sledgehammer like 4 episodes in a row. I look forward to this incest Targ baby that shall mount the world. 

Kind of rich for Dany to nag her ancestors for having the same stupid idea she did with her two 'babies'. Conquer the world with your living nukes, then lock them up until they wither and die. GG, y'all. 

Whooo, dragon on dragon fight, I'm looking forward to that massive expenditure of CGI funds. The Night King could look at least a *little* happy he's got a dragon of his own. He's sitting there like it's a supped up horse and he can't be bothered. Also, why are there no female White Walkers? 

I would have preferred Theon to have made this evolution without Jon of all people granting partial absolution. He should have been able to get here (psychologically) on his own. His little grin when the sailor went for the cheap shot was hilarious though. Shouldn't literally everyone know by now that his business got shipped to his dad in a box? What do you think kneeing the guy in the crotch is going to do?

Every episode I hate the 'Jon Snow for President' faction more. This dude is an idiot, furthermore, with Dany their idiocy magnifies and synergizes with one another to form an Idiot SuperNova.

Edited August 28, 2017 by rozen

[HunterHunted]

20 minutes ago, Chinspinner said:

2)      Cersei was lying, a scene that everyone and their cat knew was coming. How do the Lannister’s have the iron bank still? Surely, they lost the gold when attacked by Daenerys. What the hell is this 10,000-strong army nonsense (Golden something)? Why are they just waiting around for a war to fight? This smacks of deus ex machina.

They have all of the gold that they looted from Highgarden. Randyll Tarly clearly says all of the gold was safely in Kings Landing. The loot train battle destroyed the crops and food from the Reach.

The Golden Company is a mercenary army for hire, just like the private military company Blackwater USA.

[The Kings Foot]

7 hours ago, Katalina said:

 

What reason would Euron have used for up and leaving if there hadn't been a wight?

He was acting like an ass from the beginning and then Cersei told him to shut up. A couple more incidents like that and he would have stormed off in a huff. 

 

That was plan A I believe. But he saw the wight and decided thst made a better exit. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

36 minutes ago, Chinspinner said:

How do the Lannister’s have the iron bank still? Surely, they lost the gold when attacked by Daenerys.

This was discussed at great length in the S7.E4 thread, but you can clearly hear Tarly tell Jaime that all of the Highgarden gold is safely through the gates at Kings Landing at the beginning of the loot train scene:

[DarkRaichu]

6 hours ago, Delta1212 said:

 

I can think of practical examples that say you are wrong, but I don't want to get into book talk.

Also did a 20 second search on AWOIAF out of curiosity, and the results disagreed with you there, as well.

 

6 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

As did I. (I consulted the TV-specific GOT wiki which was very clear that bastards are named for the region, not the father.)

Quote from the wiki:

Quote

The surname a bastard received appears to be connected to the location the child is raised, though this is not a consistent rule.

And it continues on with examples.  Bran of all people should know that Jon never stepped foot on Dorne, much less was raised there..

 

7 hours ago, doram said:

And yet again, the showrunners proving that they have no fundamental knowledge of their source material and they can't be bothered to do the homework of a 20 second search on AWOIAF.

Worse, I think they (or someone in writers' room) knew about it and decide not to give a f**k for the sake of drama :P

Edited August 28, 2017 by DarkRaichu

[CeeBeeGee]

41 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

 

Quote from the wiki:

And it continues on with examples.  Bran of all people should know that Jon never stepped foot on Dorne, much less was raised there..

 

Worse, I think they (or someone in writers' room) knew about it and decide not to give a f**k for the sake of drama :P

Quote from the wiki:

"Bastard surnames are dependent on the region a child was born in, i.e. where the mother is from, not where the father is from. For example, a noble lord from the Stormlands could father one bastard child in the Vale, and another in the Riverlands, but neither would use the surname "Storm": the first bastard would use the surname "Stone", and the second would use the surname "Rivers."

And Jon was born in Dorne.

[CletusMusashi]

 So I guess Jon's full name is:

Aegon Towerborn Targaryan, The Second of His Name, The Unmurdered, King of the North, Leader of Wildlings, Knower of Nothing, Collector of Zombies, Washer, Rinser, and Repeater, and, if they want to go meta, Launcher of a Thousand Ships.