S07.E07: The Dragon And The Wolf

[MadMouse]

If Connington is cast as the GC leader I think they'll be used to finally make Cersei go full mad Queen. She thinks they're her ace in the hole until the truth about Jon is revealed and then Connington switches sides because "my silver Prince's son" . She holds up in the Red Keep surrounded by wildfire. Let the dead or the silver haired bitch rule ashes.

[MVFrostsMyPie]

Pirates everywhere must be jealous of all that booty on the Ship of Incest. There be a lot of plunderin' going on below the hull, IYKWIMAITYD. If the boat's a-rockin', don't come a-knockin'!

[TwistedandBored]

The wall finally comes down. 

Me:

[jeansheridan]

3 hours ago, Ocean Chick said:

I'm still confused.  So Jon is the product of silver haired Raegar and light brown haired Lyanna.  Ned, her brother, and Arya, her niece, both have light brown hair.  And we had that whole "the seed is strong" theme in Season 1 about Baratheons having black hair and Lannisters having blonde hair and Tully's having red hair, which is how Ned realized that Joffrey and sibs were not Robert's children.  So how did Jon end up with black hair?  Does that mean he's not a "true" Targaryeon like Dany?    Ugh.

Sometimes it's best to ignore such details. I mean Jaime and Tyrion have become way less blond during the run of the show. Lyanna had dark enough hair as did Benjen. Jon looks like a Stark. I used to confuse him with Robb when the show started.

[Lemuria]

Quote

So in short,  Rhaegar should've acted like a king and not done something that would cause this much chaos, death and destruction because he ran into a pretty girl that caught his fancy.

I don't think it was just that he was in love with Lyanna--that merely meant that he didn't kidnap and rape her--but he was also obsessed with the prophecy and he believed a union with Lyanna would produce the PwwP.  (I've seen his belief in the prophecy called "insane" but since the Long Night is actually here and the Battle for the Dawn has started, well, he was right to believe in the prophecy, wasn't he?)

Quote

does anyone else get a sense that the whole mess with the golden company is a way to introduce (book) Aegon?

Nope, not for a minute.  With 6 episodes to go, you don't introduce a character out of the blue to take the place of someone that all signs have been pointing to (ie Jon).  It's better known as a "bait-and-switch" and nothing is more guaranteed to infuriate viewers and/or readers faster or more likely to make sure they never tune into or read anything you do again.  

Edited August 28, 2017 by Lemuria

[Shimmergloom]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

If all this is true, why hide her? There's no reason to hide her if he thought what he was doing was righteous. He should have married her took her to King's landing, told the Dornish, the Starks and the Baratheons to suck it up. He knew what he was doing. Hell Rhaegar could've went to Kings landing as soon as he heard the Starks were arrested, but he didn't he and many died because of it. He didn't care.

Look at the marriage scene on this show. Those aren't the face of two people disheartened by the fact that the brides family got slaughtered by their actions.

Because, if her dad and brother knew she wasn't really kidnapped and still showed up demanding her return or claiming she was really kidnapped, then he probably didn't trust that they were going to listen to reason.  It's also said or believed that King Aerys was keeping Elia hostage at KL.  So Rhaegar probably didn't want to be anywhere near there.  It seems like her dad and his dad were hellbent on not letting them be happy together.  I think a lot of where you side with this, comes down to whether you think Lyanna should have been ok with being sold to Robert or not.  She obviously was not.

 

1 hour ago, VCRTracking said:

I know it was only for the audience's benefit, to let us know that Ned knew that Jon was really legitimate, but Lyanna telling him her baby's full name was "Aegon Targaryen" was... I'll let this tweet say it:

 

Aww, don't be embarrassed. I've been seeing parallels between Padme and Anakin and Elizabeth and Phillip on Netflix's The Crown.(A young brunette Queen who's in over her head married to an arrogant blond who complains a lot)

I like to think that Ned misheard and thought Lyanna said, "A Jon" and not "Aegon".  And thus, A Jon Snow was born.

[HunterHunted]

1 hour ago, Miles said:

Well the trip north backfired massively. Not only did they not convince Cercei to do the right thing (which Tyrion really should have seen coming). They also gave the white walkers the means to break the wall. I don't see how else they would have made it over, considering all the enchantments in the wall. Seems like the only way to break it was dragon fire (since the horn of winter was never introduced).

Bran already broke the enchantments in the wall when he let the Night King touch him and later crossed the wall. The wall is a little like the Great Wall of China. Parts of it unmanned and crumbling. It hadn't been a problem in the past because no one had seen a wight or white walker in years. Additionally, the wall was still enchanted. Even without a dragon, the Night King could have thrown wights, wight giants, wight polar bears at the wall or the gates in the wall until they got through

1 hour ago, Lemuria said:

I think Tyrion believed that, when faced with total destruction at the hands of the undead, Cersei would make survival--especially her own--the most paramount problem.  Cersei may be "mad" (though I'm not sure how much that is true) but she's been very smart since she took over.  Under normal circumstances, letting two enemies fight first and then taking on the weakened survivor would make sense.  In this situation, it doesn't.  This is the first really irrational decision I've seen her make this season. 

Tyrion in many ways is like Jaime. Neither of them recognize that Cersei is The Stranger. Tyrion killing Tywin made the Lannisters more vulnerable because the biggest vulnerability the Lannisters have is Cersei. When Tywin was alive, she never would have acted against him. Tywin was planning on marrying her off to Loras. Myrcella was dead the moment the Mountain squeezed Oberyn's head like a grape. Tywin was still alive when Oberyn died. Even after Tywin died, Uncle Kevan came in to help. Cersei wouldn't listen to Uncle Kevan. She empowered the Faith Militant because she didn't like the power and influence the Tyrells had. She blew up the Great Sept because she couldn't get control of the dog she unleashed in the Faith Militant. If she cared about the Lannisters, she wouldn't have let Uncle Kevan die in the Great Sept. She should have kept Margaery back in the Red Keep to keep as a hostage Queen until Margaery pops out a couple of heirs. Heck if she had any sense, she would have saved Loras too. She could have a couple more of Jaime's kids, passed them off as Loras', stolen Highgarden, and it would have all been completely legal. Tywin was right. She's not as smart as she thinks she is.

Cersei isn't smart enough to realize that Tywin won the the war against the North at the Red Wedding without spilling a single drop of Lannister blood. He got other people to do exactly what he wanted. Cersei doesn't understand that Tywin negotiated for things. He didn't always use force. What he couldn't negotiate, he'd buy, and what he couldn't buy, he'd destroy. Cersei is all fist. She wants to crush everything. She can't be trusted.

Cersei is a short-sighted nihilist. Even if Euron ferries the Golden Company back from Essos, there is a decent chance that he might just hole up on Pyke until the war against the dead is done. If that happens to be won by Jon and Dany or if Cersei has to fight it out, so be it. I don't get the sense that Euron is willing to commit a single person to fight dead people. I suspect that he'll get the Ironborn to build ships and conquer some other part of the world and leave Westeros behind if the dead win. Euron will fuck Cersei over the first chance he gets.

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

So in short,  Rhaegar should've acted like a king and not done something that would cause this much chaos, death and destruction because he ran into a pretty girl that caught his fancy.

Basically, Rhaegar was going to screw up Westeros no matter what he did as long as he was determined to be with Lyanna.

Quote

I hope Martin will come up with a better story (should he ever get to this point). All the characters involved in that little fools errand should be smarter than that. But I fear the destruction of the wall will also be undead dragon based in the books and the horn of winter is just a red hering.

Martin has grossly overwritten the side parts of the story, which is part of the reason it's been taking him forever to finish.

Edited August 28, 2017 by HunterHunted

[Happy Harpy]

Brienne of Tarth: "Fuck loyalty!"

Me and Jaime Lannister: *clutching pearls*

It wasn't The Winds of Winter. It didn't go bam-bam-bam from start to finish. But it was quite satisfying, if more classical with the big bam, shit just hit the fan at the end.

I realize that they could have built the parlay like they did the Sept, I'm glad they resisted the temptation of a redux and went for character interactions instead. Pod/Tyrion was sweet, and my dream team  for Arya's West of Westeros trip  is shaping up with Brienne/The Hound bonding. I'd love it if the Hound took down the Mountain while Arya takes care of Cersei.

I'm so glad that Jon didn't lie. I'm so glad that he stayed true to his principles, and did it with his eyes wide open. I loved it when he talked about Ned. Being good and honest isn't easy, it's actually the most difficult thing. He was right. If some people didn't have the moral strength needed to stay true and honest, there would be nothing reliable or good at all in the world.

"For Yara" = the feels. Go save your sister, Theon, and please kill off that annoying buffoon uncle of yours. Best pleasant surprise this season is how little he was on. The Theon/Jon scene was one of my favorite in this episode and Theon's redemption arc has been great.

Talking about redemption arcs, is Jaime's finally, finally back on tracks? He left woo-hooo! And he wanted to keep his pledge. Very very very slow learner, this one. It surprised me but one of the things I'm looking forward to the most next season is his presence in the Targaryen/Stark alliance. He'll have to confront his past crimes along with Bran. Will Arya want to slit his throat now? How will he get along with Daenerys? Plus, Jaime & Brienne is my gravy, I can't give up on it. Joining the choir of those hoping Bronn joins him and goes North.

Cersei is actually as crazy as in the books. She looks more collected and cunning but she's as unhinged. I'm still so over her, though. I'm surprised that Qyburn didn't walk away from her ASAP to rush North and propose his services to the NK. All those walking corpses must be his mad scientist's wet dream.

I believe that if more time had been spent on Jon and Dany, many people would complain about "the ship that eats the show" and "time wasted on a stupid romance" (see: GreyWorm and Missandei). I'm personally glad that the writers decided to build Jon/Dany as a relationship between people who are attracted to each other but also have beliefs, obligations and actually bond over their resemblances and differences.  I love them together, although I was hit by so many baby anvils that I might have a small bump on my head now, but I didn't need their love scene to be longer. Things didn't end up too well for couples who had BFD ones, or it's unlikely they'll ever have another one (see: same). The two central characters, though? Probably they'll have another opportunity.

Poor Jorah. But in spite of trying to prevent the lovebirds to travel together, I don't think he'll betray for love. They are going to do the original Tyrion/Arya/Jon with Daenerys instead, don't they? Sigh. I need Tyrion to find his groove back and pinning for Daenerys won't do it.

I agree, "I'm a slow learner" was the definite sign that Sansa didn't realize LF's game until the moment he got her to the "Lady of Winterfell". The writing stayed balanced until the end, so I could fully appreciate the Arya/Sansa scenes, since it was about both sisters and not about using one to prop the other. Imo, it was obvious the whole trial was a set up the moment Arya came in with the dagger at her side -also, her smirk. LF pleading for his life like the coward he is was so satisfying, but the moment he said "I don't know what your aunt told you" was the one I actually cheered "Busted!". I've always been of the mind that the Stark sisters reunion would mean they'd have to deal with their past and differences, and it wouldn't go smoothly, so in spite of the basic mistake made back in S1, it worked for me. I think that Sansa passing the sentence and Arya swinging the sword meant that they are complementary and bringing each a different, but equally valuable contribution to their house.

Sam and Bran, the nerds connection? Sam was a welcome comic relief and he pretty much translated my own reaction to Bran's new 'tude: "Okayyy"". Maybe Bran's getting used to his flow of information now, though? He seemed to welcome Sam's arrival with more warmth than he showed to Sansa and Arya.  It surprised me already when he hugged Arya back, maybe it means he's gradually able to retrieve more of his emotions and personality.

I was a bit disappointed when Joe Dempsie wasn't in the credits, but so glad finally that Gendry wasn't showed at the Wall. He lives another season.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Happy Harpy

[Oscirus]

57 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

I don't think it was just that he was in love with Lyanna--that merely meant that he didn't kidnap and rape her--but he was also obsessed with the prophecy and he believed a union with Lyanna would produce the PwwP.  (I've seen his belief in the prophecy called "insane" but since the Long Night is actually here and the Battle for the Dawn has started, well, he was right to believe in the prophecy, wasn't he?)

So if Lyanna was ugly lazy and not "liberated" you think that Rhaegegar would've been interested in fufillingg the prophecy with her? As for the prophecy itself,  it's self fufilling. He's not running around screaming his head off about the white walkers, there's no wight hunt, the walkers don't get dragons and the wall doesn't come down. If anything, this proves that Rhaegar should've stuck to his wife.

 

40 minutes ago, Shimmergloom said:

Because, if her dad and brother knew she wasn't really kidnapped and still showed up demanding her return or claiming she was really kidnapped, then he probably didn't trust that they were going to listen to reason.  It's also said or believed that King Aerys was keeping Elia hostage at KL.  So Rhaegar probably didn't want to be anywhere near there.  It seems like her dad and his dad were hellbent on not letting them be happy together.  I think a lot of where you side with this, comes down to whether you think Lyanna should have been ok with being sold to Robert or not.  She obviously was not.

 

Ignoring the fact that what you're suggesting is that he put his wife and kids in danger because he developed a crush,  I'd argue that he only held Elia hostage to keep the dornish as allies due to this silliness.  As for reason, he inserted himself into Northern politics, there is no explanation in the world that can explain away the selfishness of his actions and the effect that it had on the larger picture.

As for Lyanna this comes down to a case of her being a victim or a perpetrator. If you insert this century's mindset into that one where it doesn't belong then sure, she's a victim.  However I choose to believe her independence only went as far as telling off a few punks and not giving up her name and all that it entails to show how independent she really is.  She's definitely a perpetrator.  As great at killing off her family as Tyrion is.

[arjumand]

5 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

I think it's to make it clear that they aren't an endgame couple.  That kind of thing doesn't happen with endgames.

 

5 hours ago, Francie said:

I think it was a message to the audience -- don't get too attached. Don't start rooting for them.

That was my impression too - and it wasn't just the whole avuncular sexing aspect. Rhaegar and Lyanna might have been in love (though I think on R's side it was mostly about the prophecy, and on L's it was partly not wanting to marry Robert), but their marriage / relationship was doomed from the start. Also, I think the actor was chosen to resemble Viserys, which was another hint for the audience, who'd immediately think, "Wait, this guy again?"

Not very good prospects for Jon and Dany.

 

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

So I just watched inside the episode and Jamie's reason for leaving Cersei is that she didn't tell him her plan? Are they serious? That's literally a worst reason than  the books.

I don't watch any discussion of the episode led by people who made it, I just go by what I see on screen (I trust the tale, not the teller!). And Jaime said it twice: "I pledged my support" and "I gave my word." The way I saw it was that he'd decided he wasn't going to be an Oathbreaker ever again. I'm sure it didn't help that she totally did not consult him before making false promises etc - he was the head of her armies, such as they are now.

I really want to see his reunion with Brienne, now - I hope there's some sheepish apologies in his future!

I enjoyed the episode, and I'm glad my fears for Brienne's life (I thought Cersei was going to kill her) and the Wight's 'life' (I was afraid it was going to deactivate that far South) were unfounded.

I love that as Jaime rides North, it starts snowing, and then we see snow in King's Landing, just like at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Very cool.

My favourite bit of Cersei and Jaime arguing was when she revealed that she'd noticed that Dany only brought 2 dragons along for the ride, and then Jaime's all "So what? I saw what one can do, and it's enough!"

[anamika]

3 hours ago, Kanner said:

Being a Jon fan and having no problem with his honor, a small part of me would be so proud if he slept with Dany as a manipulation. That whole scene can be viewed through a lense of he and Tyrion working together. This is why he hesitates and braces himself to see her. Tyrion is looking sad about his betrayal. This could be the bittersweet ending. Jon wins but loses what makes him special - his goodness and honor. He just like every other horrible person playing this stupid game.

Why do you want Jon to be just like every other horrible person playing the game? Is it not nice that we get that one character who stands out and continues to stick to his principles no matter the stakes and no matter how hard it is to do the right thing? That's why Jon is Jon and he is pretty much the only character who is not playing the stupid game. 

And it's baffling that people think that the guy, who could not lie to Cersei or break his oath to Dany when the stakes were so high, is manipulating and cheating Dany by sleeping with her.  I mean, this is Jon Snow we are talking about. Have you guys been watching this show? How can you be a Jon Snow fan and want him to manipulate a woman by sleeping with her? That would make him the worst scum and I would be cheering for Dany to roast him with her dragons.

And why would he need to manipulate her? Dany has already pledged to help him and the North before he bend the knee. That's why he bend the knee in the first place - because he saw that she put the needs of the kingdom before her fight with Cersei. That's why he's sure that the North will accept her as queen - 'they will come to see you for what you are.'

To quote the one true king Stannis Baratheon once again:

Quote

I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne.

Dany is trying to save the kingdom to win the throne and that makes her a good queen. Unlike Cersei, who is waiting for the kingdom to be destroyed to win the throne and become the queen of ashes. That right there tells us the difference between Dany and Cersei and Jon sees this. That's why he has pledged to Dany.

Edited August 28, 2017 by anamika

[Oscirus]

5 minutes ago, arjumand said:

I really want to see his reunion with Brienne, now - I hope there's some sheepish apologies in his future!

His meeting with Bran is going to be really awkward. Brienne is likely going to be caught in the middle of a really messy situation.

[Mya Stone]

Actual footage of me watching Jaime FINALLY turn away from Cersei and become closer to his book version, LF finally getting his, and Jon and Dany finally getting together: 

 

[Vella]

You know what would have been nice? Instead of the Stark sisters endlessly remembering Ned Stark, they remembered their MOTHER, Catelyn, for once. The woman who loved them and whom they each loved in return. The woman who was also betrayed and then watched her eldest child be murdered in front of her before she herself was murdered. If the sisters of Winterfell were able to even just ONCE talk about their Lady of Winterfell and what SHE might think of them standing together all these years later.  Hear some fondness and sadness in their voices for their dead mother, share a memory of two of her.  It's really hollow when the two girls are not allowed to even broach the topic of their dead mother, but seem to spend half their scenes talking about dear old amazing Dad and the other half about Jon.  While were at it, nothing for Robb? Nothing for Rickon? Nothing for their direwolves?  What a waste.

And it's really frustrating to see Littlefinger bite it in episode 7 when it could have EASILY happened in episode 1 because Sansa already knew about Lysa and Jon and what Littlefinger did to them. She could have blabbed to Jon and been done with him much sooner. Bran's return was a complete waste because one of the most valuable things he knew, Littlefinger betraying Ned was not even put on screen for either Stark sister, to react to, so what was the point of keeping Littlefinger around if we don't get to see the Stark sisters react to the reveal and plot revenge from that point? What was the point of sending Brienne away? Bran could have shown up in the last episode, had his scene with Sam and DONE. It really highlights how little thought and writing went into what was going on in Winterfell not only for just an episode or two, but the entire season.

[HunterHunted]

3 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

As as it was cool to the dragons as we saw them this season, it is obvious that all that CGI cost us the other three episodes. This season felt rushed in all the wrong ways, so many scenes should have been there and were not, so many talks, small lines between the characters that should have been there. There is not doubt, at least for me, that D7D are nowhere close to George - George, for all the myth of being really innovative and daring, is a very conventional writer. But he is a much better writer than D&D and it shows on screen; adds the lack of the three episodes and we got what we got, which wasn't exactly awful with a capital A, but it was a waste of potential. Not my favorite season, but I'm glad the plot moved forward.  Here hoping HBO as a change of mind and we get a 10 episodes season. Whishful thiking I know, but a girl can dream.

Martin has a long history of writing for tv. I think doing that and working in a writers' room has given him the skills to fully (and in some cases indulgently) flesh out characters and plot points. He's also a writing teacher and nothing helps you understand something like have to explain it to someone else. Benioff is a movie screenwriter. I think his brain only works in 2 hour increments.

[arjumand]

44 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

His meeting with Bran is going to be really awkward. Brienne is likely going to be caught in the middle of a really messy situation.

Crap, I keep forgetting about that. Maybe Bran is so super-three-eyed-raveny now that some of his memories have been erased to make up for new downloads.

Re. Jon's "real name" - I'm getting really annoyed at people on Tumblr going on about it being ridiculous that Rhaegar chose the same name of his dead son for his new son. Why is everyone assuming that only the dad gets to name the baby, rather than the woman whose body the kid just came out of? Sure, she's northern, but she seems to have drunk Rhaegar's 'Prince that was promised' Kool-Aid, and what better name for a boy with a DESTINY than to be named after Aegon the Conqueror? Ugh.

[anamika]

30 minutes ago, Vella said:

You know what would have been nice? Instead of the Stark sisters endlessly remembering Ned Stark, they remembered their MOTHER, Catelyn, for once.

Ned is the only dead Stark every one remembers. Did Robb even get a statue in the crypt? Bran and Arya did not even ask after Rickon. Bran spend an entire season on the run with Rickon and it was he who send Rickon off to the Umbers and we did not get a scene where he asks what happens to Rickon :(  Not surprising considering that we did not get to see Bran mourn Summer or Hodor either.

It's funny that Jon and Brienne were sitting right next to each other this episode and have yet to exchange a single word this entire season.

So, the mystery of who asked Sansa to come to KL remains unanswered. If it was Jon/Tyrion, then why is Sansa angry that Jon did not consult her. If it was Cersei, for what reason did she ask Sansa to come there? 

I did like all those glances that passed between Jaime, Brienne and Cersei though. Lena Headey continues to impress. I can see why they want Cersei to stick around till the very end, though I have gotten bored with the character.

Apropos of nothing, I loved Jon supporting Theon's decision to go save his sister as opposed to saving the world. That was very like the book Jon who broke his oaths to the NW and was ready to march on WF with a band of wildlings to save Arya.

Edited August 28, 2017 by anamika

[loki567]

I don't want to get too overwhelmingly negative but the sub-par plotting desperately makes me want the remaining books even more now. I do not want this show to have final say on GRRM's legacy. 

Favorite scene was Theon and Jon. Considering he's been such an afterthought this season and really his entire storyline was stolen by Sansa and Theon, a heroic effect by Alfie Allen to give the character the respect that he deserves. 

I never take the Jon/Sansa theories too seriously but I have to admit that I hmmed at the first time a potential Jon/Dany marriage is mentioned is a Sansa scene. Why? Feels like they're framing the final season with Jon having to choose between being a Targaryen or being a Stark. Dany is naturally one choice and Sansa might be the other.

Either way, they're still foreshadowing Northern unrest with Jon/Dany alliance and Sansa arguably having more sway with the North than Jon, so it's going to be a big issue in season eight. 

[BooBear]

7 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Cersei finally threatening Jaime may have been the final straw the broke the camel's back after a season of increasingly big straws falling all around him.  At this point, I'm just so happy he's finally on the move though I don't even care about his reasoning.  

For me this was the real reason he left. Not only that she threatened it but it would only be a matter of time before he was reduced to no say at all.   I also feel he was hurt that she still seemed to want to marry Euron.  Plus, as he rightly told her... her plan was stupid. No matter who wins in the north... once done they will come for you.  I only hope she marries Euron and then Euron tries to kill her or lock her up.  One good thin about Cersei, she isn't as smart as the thinks. 

Spoiler

I was surprised that the foretold scene of Cerci waking up in a bloody bed was skipped.. was that scene a lie or did they cut it at the last moment. 

I thought this was one of the worst finales.  Too much talking. Theon should have been cut. He should have stopped Jon in the fire pit and told Jon he was going after Yara.  That would have made the most sense and it would have taken like 3 lines. But also.. Theon? Do you have any allies?  Any firepower? Is this just a suicide mission? What about Dani? Shouldn't she be trying to get Yara back? 

Winterfell was just super stupid. I guess I can fanwank that Balish began to believe his own press and couldn't see that he wasn't manipulating anyone... but it is very disappointing to have him go down so unceremoniously.  At least the sisters aren't stupidly fighting anymore.  I am starting to wonder if the north aren't going to throw Jon over for Sansa someday. Killing Balish and revealing what he did to Robin's parents likely completely endears the north to Sansa.  Jon is a Targ. And wait until they find out Jon is responsible for a wright dragon.  If D&D want some fan service Robin needs to come back from years in training as  hot normal guy who is into Sansa... milk does the body good. 

Speaking of Jon, I am starting to lose the character. Perhaps it is that the people from the north are not comparable with the south because they think it is best not to lie, but Jon imho showed why he cannot be a leader. Telling the truth in that moment, in that circumstance, was foolish. But, it was the "truth" -- oh shut up Jon. Sansa warned you. Everyone warned you. You can't deal with someone sneaky if you can't or won't conceive of it.  He seemed smarter last year. 

Box sex wasn't hot.   But there was so much talk of Dani's heirs ... and her ability to have kids.. no way she isn't pregnant next year. 

I did like that Cerci was spitting bricks at the dramatic way that Dani came in but imho there is NO WAY she rightly surmised that one of the dragons was gone.   I do think that she cannot kill Tyrion and loves him despite herself. For his part, "the hand" is doing a bad job for Dani. The only explanation is that he cannot bring himself to kill Cerci.

I am sure they have more stupid battle scenes for next year but for me... the best way to win against the Night King is to lay a trap for him... and kill or capture him. That would be the most effective use of their resources and if it were me... that would be the plan. 

The wright did not convince Cerci, well at least that was consistent.  Her brother had to convince her.  So they lost a dragon for nothing. 

Where was Gendry?

[SimoneS]

4 hours ago, LanceM said:

In case anyone is wondering here is what D&D had to say about why they shot the R+L=J reveal and the Dany-Jon sex scene the way they did:

"He's the rightful heir to the iron throne. That changes everything... It was about making it clear that this was an information bomb that Jon was heading towards... Just as we're seeing these two people come together, we're hearing the information that will inevitably if not tear them apart, at least cause real problems in their relationship, and she's his aunt. It complicates everything on a political level, on a personal level, and it just takes everything that could have been so neat and kind of perfect for Jon and Dany, and it really muddies the waters."

I actually thought that was obvious in how they shot the reveal. They were going for the drama. I don't see how some people concluded from that they aren't going to end up together.  

Edited August 28, 2017 by SimoneS

[IntrovertGal]

Yup my favourite scene was Theon and Jon as well. It even made me tear up a little. If someone had told me that I would ever like a scene between Jon and Theon of all people this much I wouldn't have believed them. I loved that Jon told Theon that he didn't have to choose, that he could both be a Greyjoy and a Stark and this gave Theon the courage and determination to go save his sister. Such a beautiful scene!

To be honest, Boat!Sex was a letdown for me. It was way too short and abrupt. I wanted to see Jon and Dany kiss first. Also their sex scene being intercut with Bran's cold voice and the Rhaegar and Lyanna flashbacks didn't help. In addition, the Rhaegar actor looking so much like Viserys really creeped me out. On the plus side, the show finally officially spelled out R+L=J in the text and they even revealed that Jon is not a bastard but the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne. I do not really like the name Aegon though, I'm gonna keep calling Jon Jon.

The Winterfell storyline does still not make sense to me, but I'm glad that Littlefinger is finally dead and the Stark sisters have made up. This stupid tension and strife between them was so annoying.

Loved the reunion scene between Brienne and The Hound and how they talked about Arya and the scene between Brienne and Jaime. I had to chuckle how shocked Jaime was when Brienne told him to fuck loyalty.

Cersei has done so many horrible things and this is the thing that turns Jaime against her? WTF? But fine, whatever, as long as Jaime is removed from Cersei's influence and no longer with her, I'm glad. Of course D&D completely screwed up Jaime's redemption arc, his turning against Cersei should have come about 3 seasons ago. I just hope that GRRM will continue to write Jaime's arc better in the books. I really hope that Cersei dies early on next season, I don't know how much more of her that I can take. I'm sick and tired of her character.

Seeing Viserion the Wight destroying the Wall was impressive but I really hope Tormund made it out alive. It's gonna be a long wait until season 8!

[Spartan Girl]

7 hours ago, CofCinci said:

I'm very confused by Tyrion's bitchface. Wasn't he shipping them?!!!

If they turn him into the jealous third wheel, I will be pissed.

[DarkRaichu]

2 hours ago, Vella said:

You know what would have been nice? Instead of the Stark sisters endlessly remembering Ned Stark, they remembered their MOTHER, Catelyn, for once. The woman who loved them and whom they each loved in return. The woman who was also betrayed and then watched her eldest child be murdered in front of her before she herself was murdered. If the sisters of Winterfell were able to even just ONCE talk about their Lady of Winterfell and what SHE might think of them standing together all these years later.  Hear some fondness and sadness in their voices for their dead mother, share a memory of two of her.  It's really hollow when the two girls are not allowed to even broach the topic of their dead mother, but seem to spend half their scenes talking about dear old amazing Dad and the other half about Jon.  While were at it, nothing for Robb? Nothing for Rickon? Nothing for their direwolves?  What a waste.

And it's really frustrating to see Littlefinger bite it in episode 7 when it could have EASILY happened in episode 1 because Sansa already knew about Lysa and Jon and what Littlefinger did to them. She could have blabbed to Jon and been done with him much sooner. Bran's return was a complete waste because one of the most valuable things he knew, Littlefinger betraying Ned was not even put on screen for either Stark sister, to react to, so what was the point of keeping Littlefinger around if we don't get to see the Stark sisters react to the reveal and plot revenge from that point? What was the point of sending Brienne away? Bran could have shown up in the last episode, had his scene with Sam and DONE. It really highlights how little thought and writing went into what was going on in Winterfell not only for just an episode or two, but the entire season.

That makes too much sense, meaning there is no "drama", meaning will never be put on screen by the showrunners.  

1 hour ago, IntrovertGal said:

To be honest, Boat!Sex was a letdown for me. It was way too short and abrupt. I wanted to see Jon and Dany kiss first. Also their sex scene being intercut with Bran's cold voice and the Rhaegar and Lyanna flashbacks didn't help.

At least give us a hint about Jon's other skill that Ygritte was so pleased to receive ;) ;) ;)

1 hour ago, IntrovertGal said:

I really hope that Cersei dies early on next season, I don't know how much more of her that I can take. I'm sick and tired of her character.

Doubt it. The way D&D gush over Lena Headey's performance, Cersei would stay alive til the last 5 minutes of the last episode next season.

ETA: Just to clarify I think Lena is a great actress and I love the way she potrays Cersei.  I meant to say D&D love her so much to the point of keeping Cersei alive and relevant regardless of story points.

Edited August 28, 2017 by DarkRaichu

[anamika]

58 minutes ago, BooBear said:

Speaking of Jon, I am starting to lose the character. Perhaps it is that the people from the north are not comparable with the south because they think it is best not to lie, but Jon imho showed why he cannot be a leader. Telling the truth in that moment, in that circumstance, was foolish. But, it was the "truth" -- oh shut up Jon.

But he was right. If everyone lies, then what is the point of even asking for deals and promises from people?

One of the reasons for the Red Wedding being such a big deal in the books is because breaking guest rights made everything unscrupulous. Why would people agree to meet to hash out treaties and deals if they are just going to get back stabbed and betrayed?  Why would anyone ever trust in Jon's word again if he lied about something so important? 

He was the only one actually being a leader who understood that deals and treaties need to be honored or there's no point. Can we honestly criticize Cersei for going back on her word and then ask Jon to do the same - I mean Tyrion and Dany wanted him to lie and then they are trusting that Cersei honors her word? Especially Tyrion?

Edit: In the books, Jon is extra sensitive about his honor, because he is a bastard - bastards are seen as untrustworthy and dishonest in Westeros with quotes like - 'Black as a Bastard's heart'. That's why he goes the extra mile to choose honor - 'A bastard’s sort of honor' .

Edited August 28, 2017 by anamika

[Bryce Lynch]

8 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Yep, it's all tyrion's fault. People can't do their job, blame Tyrion. Jon makes a catch the wight plan in the dumbest way possible, let's blame tyrion.  Tyrion's plans may not have been the best but it's not his fault that people executed his plans in the worst way possible.

The catch a wight plan was Tyrion's idea, so he does deserve blame as do Jon and the rest of the team for poor execution.

You could argue Dany is really responsible for the Wall being breached.  Tyrion urged her not to go on her rescue mission.

In the end, I think the NK would have eventually found a way to get his army past the Wall, anyway.

[IntrovertGal]

11 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

At least give us a hint about Jon's other skill that Ygritte was so pleased to receive ;) ;) ;)

Doubt it. The way D&D gush over Lena Headey's performance (or rather her face), Cersei would stay alive til the last 5 minutes of the last episode next season

LOL yeah, that would have been awesome! :D  Maybe Dany will mention Jon's prowess next season?

Yes you are probably right. I have nothing against Lena Headey, she is a great actress and she makes Cersei a truly despicable character so kudos to her. I'm just so sick of Cersei almost always winning, also for reasons that make no sense, just because D&D want to keep her alive.

[Eyes High]

The Jon/Theon scene was great. 

Wilf Scolding, the actor they got to play Rhaegar, looked like a Viserys clone in profile. A+ casting job.

Quote

Can we start taking bets on the sex of the baby? I say it is a dark haired girl. Mark my words.

I don't know, but I'm guessing platinum-haired babies are in short supply if they're looking for babies to play Baby Targ. They had a blond baby play baby Jon in 6x10, though, so who knows?

A fan on Westeros.org has a theory about how when Targs marry non-Targs, their firstborn child always takes after the non-Targ parent (Rhaegar and Elia's firstborn resembled Elia, Rhaegar and Lyanna's child resembled Lyanna, Aegon V and Betha Blackwood's first child was dark-haired like Betha, etc.). If you classify Jon as the "non-Targ," then by that token their firstborn will have dark hair as well.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Eyes High

[Misplaced]

I think my favourite part of this episode was the music of what I'm now calling "Cersei's Theme" -- which was a solo cello/bass line from last season's "Light of the Seven."   Fantastic and creepy as hell.  I officially heart Ramin Djawadi.  

[Kanner]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

Why do you want Jon to be just like every other horrible person playing the game? Is it not nice that we get that one character who stands out and continues to stick to his principles no matter the stakes and no matter how hard it is to do the right thing? That's why Jon is Jon and he is pretty much the only character who is not playing the stupid game. 

And it's baffling that people think that the guy, who could not lie to Cersei or break his oath to Dany when the stakes were so high, is manipulating and cheating Dany by sleeping with her.  I mean, this is Jon Snow we are talking about. Have you guys been watching this show? How can you be a Jon Snow fan and want him to manipulate a woman by sleeping with her? That would make him the worst scum and I would be cheering for Dany to roast him with her dragons.

And why would he need to manipulate her? Dany has already pledged to help him and the North before he bend the knee. That's why he bend the knee in the first place - because he saw that she put the needs of the kingdom before her fight with Cersei. That's why he's sure that the North will accept her as queen - 'they will come to see you for what you are.'

To quote the one true king Stannis Baratheon once again:

Dany is trying to save the kingdom to win the throne and that makes her a good queen. Unlike Cersei, who is waiting for the kingdom to be destroyed to win the throne and become the queen of ashes. That right there tells us the difference between Dany and Cersei and Jon sees this. That's why he has pledged to Dany.

I don't. I am very happy with Jon's honor and not "being more of the same."  But I am not always as strong as Jon like Theon I struggle. So when he is called stupid for being a better person, I get seduced by ideas of him playing the game. But as I also stated that would not be good. It is only a fleeting thought which reinforces that Jon IS doing the right thing.

[Bryce Lynch]

8 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Revealing Jon's parentage in the same episode he has sex with his aunt is disgusting. There is no amount of "hotness" makes incest root worthy or sexy or anything good.

It is sad that this is an unpopular opinion.

By Targaryen standards an Aunt-Nephew is  is not incest.  It's practically mixed marriage. :)

[Misplaced]

8 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Jaegon Sandsnow

 

Jaegon Snowgeryan?  

[Scaeva]

7 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

OH HELL YES I knew something was up with the chemistry between Jon and Dany! Never ONCE bought it. Its clear now that this isn't endgame romance.

Disappointment is coming.

[GrailKing]

5 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Euron will likely become Theon food sooner rather than later.

He's gotto wreck some havoc before that happens,no? or a total waste of a villain, he's supposed to be worst than Ramsey.

[Ailianna]

1 hour ago, BooBear said:

Killing Balish and revealing what he did to Robin's parents likely completely endears the north to Sansa.  Jon is a Targ. And wait until they find out Jon is responsible for a wright dragon.  

Nobody likes Baelish, so there's that, but why on earth would the Northern Lords care about Robin or his parents?  Those are Vale problems--which is why there were no Northern Lords there, only Vale Lords.  This would more likely be seen as her having drug Southern problems up North and then having her siblings have to help her clean them up.  There's no way that the "treason and murder" charges have any importance in the North--since his murders were in the South and his treason was both in the South and not even to House Stark.  The only thing that involved the North was his betrayal of Ned--but since Ned wasn't his lord, that's personal betrayal, not treason.  He plotted to ultimately overthrow Baratheon and Lannister, not Stark.

[anamika]

17 minutes ago, Kanner said:

I don't. I am very happy with Jon's honor and not "being more of the same."  But I am not always as strong as Jon like Theon I struggle. So when he is called stupid for being a better person, I get seduced by ideas of him playing the game. But as I also stated that would not be good. It is only a fleeting thought which reinforces that Jon IS doing the right thing.

Have you read the books? It's only in the show that they try to portray honorable people like Jon and Ned as idiots because they do the right thing. In the books, Ned Stark's honor is what makes men march through the harsh winter and snow for Ned's little girl. They have destroyed the Northern houses on the show, but in the books, their very loyalty to house Stark is because of who Ned is as a person.

In the books, Jon is pragmatic and smart. He plans Stannis' entire Northern military campaign telling him which house to approach or not to approach and how to deal with them. He plays the game - he marries Alys Karstark to the Thenn, brings the wildlings into the North and nullifies the Karstark threat. Funnily enough, all this - him going against the rules and involving himself with Stannis and the game, him breaking his oaths to save Arya, him not being as honorable - that's what gets him killed in the books.

Edited August 28, 2017 by anamika

[Eyes High]

12 minutes ago, Ailianna said:

Nobody likes Baelish, so there's that, but why on earth would the Northern Lords care about Robin or his parents?  Those are Vale problems--which is why there were no Northern Lords there, only Vale Lords.  

Yohn Royce, the guy Littlefinger unsuccessfully begged for help, is a Vale lord, and there are other Vale lords in the North (we saw them in 6x10).

I liked that the writers left out the scene where Sansa presumably explained what was going to Arya and they both went to Bran to get dirt on LF.

I also love that LF died crying and begging for his life. So satisfying!

Edited August 28, 2017 by Eyes High

[YaddaYadda]

The Cersei/Tyrion scene was really good. I really liked the emotion both actors brought to it. The Jaime/Cersei scene was also pretty good. That said, Cersei is still fucked up. 

Jon didn't think to tell them to burn the bodies when someone dies? Can the NK raise the dead long distance now that he's past the Wall? And he can just go to Winterfell right now and fuck shit up on the back of Viserion who can still fly even though he's got holes in his wings.

I had a moment with Theon when he fell to his knees and washed his face. "What is dead may never die, but only rises stronger." 

I felt like he was being reborn somehow.

I did not care for that montage. I felt it was anti-climactic. I don't care for Jon being named Aegon when Aemon or even Daeron makes a lot more sense than that. Until GRRM comes out and says yup that's his name, I'll just in my fantasy bubble that that's not his name. I guess the place they got married was really nice. Rhaegar looked too much like Viserys, but I guess they're supposed to look like, going by Dany's vision in the House of the Undying when she thinks that she's looking at Viserys. I also hate that wig so much.

I didn't care for the boatsex. And Tyrion standing there. Did Bran warg him long distance or something, because that was just really weird. 

Cersei was not impressed by the dragons at all. I have to hand it to her. She showed zero emotion when she saw Drogon, and I thought the whole thing was lame tbh. I get the show of power, but this is something that was not really needed. Cersei knows Dany has three dragons, now she knows she's got only two left.

Jorah's reaction to Dany taking Jon's advice was funny. Jorah just needs to move on with his life at this point and understand that what he wants is simply not in the cards for him. 

There's an Ad wrecking havoc on the site for me since yesterday.

[SimoneS]

43 minutes ago, anamika said:

But he was right. If everyone lies, then what is the point of even asking for deals and promises from people?

One of the reasons for the Red Wedding being such a big deal in the books is because breaking guest rights made everything unscrupulous. Why would people agree to meet to hash out treaties and deals if they are just going to get back stabbed and betrayed?  Why would anyone ever trust in Jon's word again if he lied about something so important? 

He was the only one actually being a leader who understood that deals and treaties need to be honored or there's no point. Can we honestly criticize Cersei for going back on her word and then ask Jon to do the same - I mean Tyrion and Dany wanted him to lie and then they are trusting that Cersei honors her word? Especially Tyrion?

I agree. Unlike Cersei, Daenerys herself has never lied or deceived to get what she wants so why is she expecting Jon to do so? I don't even understand what would be the benefit of lying to Cersei. Cersei's request was ridiculous. The north has chosen a side, time to stick with it.

[Bryce Lynch]

I loved the way Qyburn reacted to the wight.  While everyone else was petrified with fear, he moved forward to get a closer look and then picked up the still living, severed hand after The Hound chopped it off.

[HunterHunted]

2 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I loved the way Qyburn reacted to the wight.  While everyone else was petrified with fear, he moved forward to get a closer look and then picked up the still living, severed hand after The Hound chopped it off.

As soon as I learned that Jon and I'm with stupid company decided to catch a wight to bring down south, my fear was that Qyburn was going to study a wight, see how they work, and replicate the process.

[Francie]

33 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I agree. Unlike Cersei, Daenerys herself has never lied or deceived to get what she wants 

"I'll give you a dragon for all your slaves."

"Psych!"

I think the real point of the moment was to show that Jon is no diplomat. He can rule on a small scale, but he would be ineffectual as ruler of a kingdom, where one has to placate in order to not cause dissension, or worse. 

I thought it interesting that he compared himself to Ned in that regard. 

Edited August 28, 2017 by Francie

[DarkRaichu]

5 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I agree. Unlike Cersei, Daenerys herself has never lied or deceived to get what she wants so why is she expecting Jon to do so? I don't even understand what would be the benefit of lying to Cersei. Cersei's request was ridiculous. The north has chosen a side, time to stick with it.

Yep.  Cersei already planned to get Golden Company before the meeting with Dany.  The whole pouting and storming of the negotiation was just a delay tactic. Although she must have anticipated Tyrion to come to her otherwise the tactic would not have worked.  Is Cersei better at anticipating her brother than anyone realize?? All indications point to yes if we want to believe that she handily won Highgarden and defeated Dorne earier.

I actually do not have any problem with this had the writing was not so sloppy, ie. without using teleportation / warp engine for Euron's fleet 

[Ailianna]

28 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Yohn Royce, the guy Littlefinger unsuccessfully begged for help, is a Vale lord, and there are other Vale lords in the North (we saw them in 6x10).

I liked that the writers left out the scene where Sansa presumably explained what was going to Arya and they both went to Bran to get dirt on LF.

I also love that LF died crying and begging for his life. So satisfying!

Exactly.  He's a Vale Lord.  The comment I was replying to suggested that dealing with Vale business would somehow endear Sansa to the North.  I'm pointing out how it had nothing to do with the North, and the Vale Lords are already there because Robin likes Sansa, not because they are of any importance dynastically in the North.  

[Francie]

With the early season comparisons of Sansa and Cersei, it's interesting that of the two women faced with killing someone whom they believed betrayed them, Sansa pulled the trigger, while Cersei did not. 

I think the purposes of this season -- which really felt like a part 1 of a season -- were, in order: 1) To have the wall come down:  2) Put Jon and Dany instead a sexual relationship; 3) Reveal Aegon Targaryen and that Robert's Rebellion was built on a lie; 4) Groom Sansa for an even bigger leadership role; 5) Send Jaime north; and 6) Cull the non-essential characters for the final showdown (bye Littlefinger, Olenna, Thoros, and the Sand Snakes). 

[Haleth]

I think maybe next year I shouldn't devour all the spoilers because it really made the finale anticlimactic.  Still, it was satisfying to see an end to LF's machinations and have Jaime walk away from Cersei (finally!).  I didn't know about the Theon scenes (so that's the payoff for Ramsay's torture?  Theon can't be kneed in the balls?) so it was good to see him be proactive.  Boatsex, ok.  The fall of the Wall, ok.  It was fun to see so much of the cast together in the dragon pit scene and I'm glad they put an end to the animosity between the Stark sisters.

Lena Headey is gorgeous (those cheekbones!) but I hate the way she clenches her teeth and talks through them.  Maybe she does this to make Cersei more annoying.  Gah, I hope she gets eaten by the undead in 8.01.  I'm so done with her.

[Kanner]

37 minutes ago, anamika said:

Have you read the books? It's only in the show that they try to portray honorable people like Jon and Ned as idiots because they do the right thing. In the books, Ned Stark's honor is what makes men march through the harsh winter and snow for Ned's little girl. They have destroyed the Northern houses on the show, but in the books, their very loyalty to house Stark is because of who Ned is as a person.

In the books, Jon is pragmatic and smart. He plans Stannis' entire Northern military campaign telling him which house to approach or not to approach and how to deal with them. He plays the game - he marries Alys Karstark to the Thenn, brings the wildlings into the North and nullifies the Karstark threat. Funnily enough, all this - him going against the rules and involving himself with Stannis and the game, him breaking his oaths to save Arya, him not being as honorable - that's what gets him killed in the books.

Not a book reader.  Thanks for the insight.

[loki567]

25 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I loved the way Qyburn reacted to the wight.  While everyone else was petrified with fear, he moved forward to get a closer look and then picked up the still living, severed hand after The Hound chopped it off.

And that's about the fifth most stupid thing of this entire storyline, the fact that a wight would absolutely shock and terrify everyone in King's Landing when hello, they were already sharing a pavilion with a zombie in FrankenGregor. 

[Eyes High]

22 minutes ago, Ailianna said:

Exactly.  He's a Vale Lord.  The comment I was replying to suggested that dealing with Vale business would somehow endear Sansa to the North.  I'm pointing out how it had nothing to do with the North, and the Vale Lords are already there because Robin likes Sansa, not because they are of any importance dynastically in the North.  

The main thrust of the charges was that LF had deliberately started a war between the Starks and the Lannisters, the same war that claimed thousands of northerners. I'm guessing the Northern lords would care about that very much. 

[Edith]

48 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I agree. Unlike Cersei, Daenerys herself has never lied or deceived to get what she wants so why is she expecting Jon to do so? I don't even understand what would be the benefit of lying to Cersei. Cersei's request was ridiculous. The north has chosen a side, time to stick with it.

Are you forgetting Astapor? 

[GrailKing]

8 hours ago, Oscirus said:

If your actions causes the death of thousands of people that you're supposed to protect,  you lose the moral high ground. 

Was it just their actions ?; or Bobby's B's jealousy ?