S07.E06: Beyond the Wall

[GrailKing]

10 hours ago, mac123x said:

In the books, he definitely got burned.  I don't remember how much they dwelt on it on the show.  I was just being silly, though I wouldn't be surprised if the writers use the immunity-to-fire thing as a way to convince Dany that Jon is a secret Targaryen.

He got burned throwing a lantern at the wight in LC room.

[CherryMalotte]

4 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

Also, I know the dragons flew from Dragonstone, so they probably flew over the sea the whole way to Eastwatch, but man, it would have been nice to just see them fly over Winterfell for like 5 seconds, scare the shit out of everyone, have Glover start ringing his town crier bell. 

Absolutely - Dany could have dropped down, parked for a bit, explained she was on her way to help Jon and the dragons needed a refuel, may I have a few sheep you aren't using?  If only...well even just to amuse me because I am enjoying the various actors having their characters react to the dragons.   

But when John grabs the sword the eyes turn black -- as if the sword has come back to "life".  

I rewatched this afternoon and went over that very part about five times.  There is some sort of jewel or stone in the eyes that may be just echoing light.  I know it does look 'blue' at one point but it's reflecting, nothing out of the ordinary.  Maybe just a pommel version of a mood ring.

Upon reflection of the series thus far and our various conversations here and in the other episodes, D&D really should have put it to a full ten episode season. Then maybe we'd have some of the flaws worked out of the plots lines, time factors, verbal exchanges - all of it.  As much as I've loved this season there's still a mess at times.  

[Tikichick]

On 8/21/2017 at 5:28 AM, whateverdgaf said:

I wouldn't worry about Brienne being killed off, not before she can fight some White Walkers at least. She's a badass warrior woman armed with Valyrian steal, D&D aren't going to waste such an opportunity, especially as I think her mere presence will be enough for Jaime to break away from Cersei. She can talk some sense to him, and she is a reminder that he isn't utterly friendless and Cersei isn't his only ally.

It seems poetically that Brienne would remain around for battle with the WW.  It seems expected that both halves of Ice should be fighting the coming of winter in the end.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Tikichick
spelling!

[screamin]

21 hours ago, stagmania said:

The problem is that I prefer to discuss the show as it appears on my screen, where you appear to prefer inventing something else to discuss. I believe we're at an impasse, so I'll leave it there. 

In other words, you interpret what is implied differently than I do. Fair enough.

[GrailKing]

9 hours ago, Tikichick said:

At this point I only have two small thoughts to share.

Is it curious to anyone else that Arya presented that dagger to Sansa with precisely the same movements as LF presented it to Bran?

Was the ginger discussion entirely a setup to make us have deeper insights into Tormund's feelings precisely before we thought we were watching him meet a very gruesome end, or was it simply  way to slip in the kissed by fire reference because it will be meaningful?

Isn't customary as a form of safety and or trust you give a knife or sword ,  hilt first.

I don't think it goes beyond that.

[Tikichick]

Just now, GrailKing said:

Isn't customary as a form of safety and or trust you give a knife or sword ,  hilt first.

I don't think it goes beyond that.

I wasn't referring to turning the hilt.  I assume Sansa in season one understood that much common sense about weapons.  I am referring specifically to the flourish of the movements, almost as if LF is quite familiar with the style of approaching weapons Arya has learned since he displayed the very same flourishes when he presented the dagger to Bran.

[GrailKing]

Just now, Tikichick said:

I wasn't referring to turning the hilt.  I assume Sansa in season one understood that much common sense about weapons.  I am referring specifically to the flourish of the movements, almost as if LF is quite familiar with the style of approaching weapons Arya has learned since he displayed the very same flourishes when he presented the dagger to Bran.

Bran saw her handle weapons before you mean?

[Tikichick]

Just now, GrailKing said:

Bran saw her handle weapons before you mean?

No, just this season we saw LF present Bran with that very same dagger, in the very same way Arya presented it to Sansa -- the flourishes of the movement.  Points all the more to LF absolutely understanding where Arya's training came from and understanding implicitly what she meant when she answered she was trained by No One.

[Macbeth]

I really did love the little Crow wight that was the first on the ice after The Hound threw the 2nd rock.

He was mostly bones and he was just dragging his sword listlessly across the ice.  As if to say "Well if I must." 

Must have been one of those recruits who was told "Join the Night's Watch, or lose a hand." 

[GrailKing]

Just now, Tikichick said:

No, just this season we saw LF present Bran with that very same dagger, in the very same way Arya presented it to Sansa -- the flourishes of the movement.  Points all the more to LF absolutely understanding where Arya's training came from and understanding implicitly what she meant when she answered she was trained by No One.

Ah now I got you.

You think, he's a FM, or just his ties to a  Bravossi mafia

[WaltersHair]

Quote

I think I'm a little less sentimental than most here about Viserion (though those baby pictures would melt the heart of a White Walker).  

But am I the only one who thought of this and re-worked it in their head as:

"The dragon has three ... three heads .... Oy!  Two ... The dragon has two heads."

Thank you. I see the dragons as giant, flying lizards and I hate lizards (which I chalk up to an unfortunate friendship with a guy who had one he let run free around his apartment. I never knew when Id run into the thing)

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Ah now I got you.

You think, he's a FM, or just his ties to a  Bravossi mafia

It's LF, so of course I haven't a clue.  There are underlying details with LF's appearance every single episode this season.  I don't know what they add up to, but it's clear they're there.

I have wondered several times if he is wearing another's face and is not in fact LF at all.  He gave a dead on explanation of philosophy to Sansa that fit the 3-Eyed Raven to a tee at the very moment someone came to fetch Lady Stark to the gate before Bran arrived.  We've seen him lurking up in the upper levels of the WF courtyard with no dialogue, but we hear the raven distinctly squawk.  We watch him eager to present Bran with that dagger -- and tell him its story and significance.  Also significantly Meera Reed interrupts that convo to say goodbye. 

I don't know what LF is up to or what his deal is, but I feel it's important to keep a constant eye on him as if I'm trying to keep my eye on the cup someone hid the ball under so I won't lose track of it, yet I inevitably do.    

[Tikichick]

11 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I am going to focus on what worked.

The Hound works for me. His attitude, his fear of fire, how his boredom started the second fight, and his grudging respect for Tormund. We are seeing a deeply cynical and hurt man finding something to believe in. It is a great arc.

Beric's voice. Give that man all the voiceover  work he can handle.

Dany & Jon work for me as family. Yes, I get that even Tyrion is shipping them (and Jorah and Tormund and Davos), but only because they are short sited. Pretty woman=sexual partner. I am not saying Jon is above those thoughts, but he has shown remarkable restraint since Ygritte. Even in the books he is not a hound dog like Tormund. So I see the beginning of a beautiful platonic friendship.

Tormund is hilarious and while his plans for Brienne are plain and blunt, I love that he has goals. It is nice that she is the object of someone 's admiration. (And how much did I love that the Hound remembered her full name? That loss stung! )

 

I think the Night King set a trap. I am not sure how he knew about the dragons except he is so old he remembers the originals and hoped to see some again and made plans.

 

I missed Bran. His distance from his sisters is frustrating. I wanted to see him plotting and pondering. 

Honestly I have grave concerns Bran isn't an ally or asset the Starks or the north can confidently rely upon.  I don't think he has much emotional attachment to anyone at this point, and I also worry what connections/networks his new status has linked him up with.

[tennisgurl]

Personally, I'm still hoping that Sansa will kill Litterfinger, let him turn into an ice zombie, and send his undead ass to Cersei. Even her Crazy Highness will maybe get on board by then.

The Good:

The stuff behind the Wall was great, filled with lots of great fight scenes and some fun character dynamics. The flaming sword! The hammer! The freaking ice bear! Tormund weirdly hitting on Gendry! Tormund realizing that Sandor doesn't hate him because he's a Wildling and Sandor is Westerosi, but because Sandor hates everyone! Tormund going on about his future kids with Brienne! Tormund is just great in general. So glad he didn't meet a nasty end. Jon is a solid leader in battle. even if I'm not totally sure how he will do in peace times.

Viserion! No! I admit it, I got emotional. Yes, I got emotional over a CGI dragon. This is my life now. I also thought the scenes between Dany and Jon worked pretty well, and I do like the connection they have, even though every time they start sending possible heart eyes at each other, all I can think is "Aunt and Nephew! Aunt and Nephew!"

Dany looked awesome in her winter coat! I do hope we get a scene where Dany, who has lived in desserts and hot places for most of her life, has to adjust to being somewhere so cold. "Holy crap Jon I'm about to get my babies to set some shit on fire to warm up! How have you lived here for so long!?!"

RIP Thoros, you crazy burning bastard. I knew someone had to die, but it still sucked. At least he got a pretty decent death.

Brienne is going to Kings Landing, meaning she can finally slap some sense into Jaimie and get his character development rolling again. I am so over Jaimie being Cerseis lap dog.

Dany saying how Jon was too short for her, only to realize who she just said that to, and her "oh crap, I totally didn't mean you" expression.

The Bad:

What the hell was with Arya and Sansa this week? Is Winterfell having a coffee shortage, and everyone is in a super pissy mood? I've never been on the "Arya is a serial killer" bandwagon, but now? She has become a dead eyed psycho who is seething with hatred towards her sister, seemingly out of nowhere. She wasn't like this last week, and we have never gotten any indication that she was still mad at Sansa before now, so why so much intense hatred now? Threatening to cut her face off? Telling her how she "betrayed" her family? That escalated quickly, didn't it? I guess I can see why they've decided to keep things rather tense between Arya and Sansa, considering their dark experiences, and how they had issues back in season 1, but this just seems ridiculous.

And then, Sansa got the asshole bug when she sent Brienne to Kings Landing because of...reasons. I truly have no idea why she's sending her there (does she want to assassinate Arya? Huh?) or why she was so awful to her, it, like Arya's anger towards Sansa, came right out of nowhere to create a conflict outside of the White Walkers. Maybe they were trying to show that Sansa and Arya are both in the wrong, but it didn't work. It just made them both seem OOC and awful.

I guess I get why they decided to avoid making Tyrion a darker character like in the books around this point (because Tyrion is basically the series main character and the creators adore him), but it also means he doesn't really have his own story now. He is basically a supporting character in Danys story now, his own character development taking a back seat.

[ParadoxLost]

31 minutes ago, CherryMalotte said:

Upon reflection of the series thus far and our various conversations here and in the other episodes, D&D really should have put it to a full ten episode season. Then maybe we'd have some of the flaws worked out of the plots lines, time factors, verbal exchanges - all of it.  As much as I've loved this season there's still a mess at times.  

Its clear that they are working from an outline.  Not allowing anything to breathe is taking away some of the gravitas and making the GoT world seem small both in geography and cast of characters.   I think you are right that having ten episodes would help.  If for no other reason than to require a new episode to cross a continent.

 But I also think they made this call because they knew that they weren't up to flushing anything out beyond the outline.

[GrailKing]

8 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

I said I hope Tormund "wins her hand" by which I meant that I hope Brienne comes to see that Tormund (unlike virtually every other man she's ever met) both admires her as a warrior and desires her as a woman.  That's a pretty potent combination.  I assume that Brienne's negative initial reaction to his clear admiration is that she doesn't believe it and she wonders what he is up to.  Book Brienne has been tricked by men pretending to admire her and as a result she reacts with suspicion when she encounters honest admiration.  I will continue to ship Tormund and Brienne because in the end, I think they could be happy together.  

In the book a Northern noblewoman (I've forgotten the character's name) is being pressured into marriage by someone who will usurp all her rights.  She flees to the Castle Black and there a marriage is arranged between her and a Wildling chieftain who will bring his followers with him to her castle and protect her rights.  I could see a similar show plot line wherein Tormund ends up on the Sapphire Isle, at Brienne's side, loving life, being her loyal partner and husband, and cranking out a bunch of huge, red-headed warrior children.

But let's face it -- this is Game of Thones -- they'll both probably both end up dead.

Alys Karstark, we saw her in 7-1

[FnkyChkn34]

11 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

Has anyone else noticed that the eyes of the wolf's head on Longclaw changed to blue when Jon emerged from the water and grabbed it? 

Sorry, but I just watched this scene multiple times, and I have to disagree. That was just the camera angle and reflections. The eyes looked white and then black; I never thought they looked blue, and especially not the icy light blue shade of WW. I think the hilt got splashed with water so the lighting changed. 

[Growsonwalls]

I just rewatched that scene between Sansa and Arya and the knife. I think Arya gave Sansa the knife at the end almost to taunt Sansa. To say: I dare you to get violent with me, because I will cut your face off. We've seen over and over again that Sansa because of her experiences recoils from violence. She avoids it. All her traumatic experiences have been violent. Sexually violent, physically violent, emotionally violent. 

Arya OTOH has always felt empowered by violence and her ability to kill. When she had nothing else, when she was "nobody" she held onto her identity by reciting people she wanted dead and ticking off that list one by one. 

So I saw Arya's gesture as "I dare you to kill me." 

[ParadoxLost]

1 minute ago, tennisgurl said:

And then, Sansa got the asshole bug when she sent Brienne to Kings Landing because of...reasons. I truly have no idea why she's sending her there (does she want to assassinate Arya? Huh?) or why she was so awful to her, it, like Arya's anger towards Sansa, came right out of nowhere to create a conflict outside of the White Walkers. Maybe they were trying to show that Sansa and Arya are both in the wrong, but it didn't work. It just made them both seem OOC and awful.

I really think Brienne is going to KL just so Jamie can witness a super awkward scene between Tormund and Brienne.  I didn't see him in the preview but it seemed like he was going to me.  That or Jamie needs to see that she is allied to the North for some motivation for something.  That's why the reasons don't quite follow.   There aren't good ones other than wanting a certain portion of the cast on hand for the Dany/Jon/Cersei confrontation.

Given the reputation this show used to have, I'm kind of surprised that they didn't loose their white walker.  It seems like it would have made more sense to have all the WWs go to dust instead of having one random one turned by someone else and survive.  Then have them be forced to make the decision to let Thoros rise. 

[GrailKing]

7 hours ago, iMonrey said:

At this point, that seems like wishful thinking. I'm not seeing any evidence or even any hint that Sansa and/or Arya might be playing Littlefinger. On the contrary the opposite seems true.

The problem I have (aside from their stupidity in allowing themselves to be manipulated) is that I don't understand what Littlefinger's plan is. Ultimately, I know he covets the Iron Throne for himself, but how does he expect to get it, and how does Sansa fit into that plan? Does he expect to manipulate or force her into marrying him? That would effectively give them control of The North and The Vale, but at this point does he really think that will be enough to take the Iron Throne? Against the army he knows Dany brought with her, not to mention the dragons? 

I just feel like the show is wasting too much time on Littlefinger without explaining what he's trying to do. If they insist on keeping him a relevant player we need more insight because otherwise he just baffles me and I feel like the show is wasting time on him.

LF plan was based on all the male Starks dead, hence Sansa is the KEY to the North, Tywin knew it, QOT, Tyrion, Robb, LF, all the major houses knew it.

Jon taking WF upset the carton, but he's off in Dragonstone, so he thinks he has an open shot with Sansa, surprise Bran is back, he has to split them up again ( NOT EFFIN HAPPENING )he gets Sansa and WF he gets the NOrth,Vale and RL ( as they are tied with WF ), he lets Cersei battle the Tyrells, the Martells they weaken and he swoops in.

Then OOPS ! Dragons, unsullies, Dothrokis and another contender.

That was his Plan, Sansa derailed it by not pushing her claim and the Lords chose Jon as KITN. 

There's hints all over the books and show, LFis targeted by Sansa for what he put her through, in books the Ghost of High Heart seen a maid with serpents in her hair (Sansa ) dripping venom (the strangler ) Joffe's wedding, I see the same maid killing a savage giant in a castle built of Snow ( WF and LF ).

She hasn't forgot all hers and family suffering, she just doesn't know how her father came to be on the chopping block.

He's fucked, she stared in 4-8 and been moving along since 6-10.

Edited August 22, 2017 by GrailKing

[Constantinople]

Four of the Seven Samurai -- Gendry, Thoros, Beric & the Hound -- knew Arya and some of them spent significant time with her, yet none of them mentioned this to Jon when they were talking about shared memories and people they knew in common

[Thinbalina]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

 

The Bad:

What the hell was with Arya and Sansa this week? Is Winterfell having a coffee shortage, and everyone is in a super pissy mood? I've never been on the "Arya is a serial killer" bandwagon, but now? She has become a dead eyed psycho who is seething with hatred towards her sister, seemingly out of nowhere. She wasn't like this last week, and we have never gotten any indication that she was still mad at Sansa before now, so why so much intense hatred now? Threatening to cut her face off? Telling her how she "betrayed" her family? That escalated quickly, didn't it? I guess I can see why they've decided to keep things rather tense between Arya and Sansa, considering their dark experiences, and how they had issues back in season 1, but this just seems ridiculous.

And then, Sansa got the asshole bug when she sent Brienne to Kings Landing because of...reasons. I truly have no idea why she's sending her there (does she want to assassinate Arya? Huh?) or why she was so awful to her, it, like Arya's anger towards Sansa, came right out of nowhere to create a conflict outside of the White Walkers. Maybe they were trying to show that Sansa and Arya are both in the wrong, but it didn't work. It just made them both seem OOC and awful.

 

I'm starting to wonder if that scene really involved Arya as Sansa..

[tennisgurl]

49 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Four of the Seven Samurai -- Gendry, Thoros, Beric & the Hound -- knew Arya and some of them spent significant time with her, yet none of them mentioned this to Jon when they were talking about shared memories and people they knew in common

Maybe because it would seem like their entire world is actually a VERY small world after all, considering the same dozen or so people keep running into each other? :)

[Constantinople]

Tyrion devised the plan to send Yara's fleet to ferry the Dornish army to King's Landing, to capture Casterly Rock with the Unsullied and now to send a team to capture a wight to try to make a deal with his sister, whom he acknowledges is totally untrustworthy

As a result of this, they've lost Dorne and The Reach, the Unsullied have been neutralized for the moment and now Viserion is dead

Why does Tyrion still have a job?

[Francie]

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

Four of the Seven Samurai -- Gendry, Thoros, Beric & the Hound -- knew Arya and some of them spent significant time with her, yet none of them mentioned this to Jon when they were talking about shared memories and people they knew in common

I thought the walk of exposition was littered with painful and heavy-handed dialogue. 

"You don't look like your father."

"Give the sword to your children." (Or whatever that one was)

"You were kissed by fire too." (Or whatever it was). 

Very little of it was organic.  The only exchange that I enjoyed was Thoros acknowledging that he wasn't the bravest that day; just the drunkest. 

[rmontro]

8 hours ago, GrailKing said:

The first time we saw him, he tells us the 3 eye raven called him.

Bran is the new 3ER, he called him to save Jon.

 

8 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

In addition to this, I also think Benjen tracks the wights and White Walkers.  So while he stays out of sight and out of harms way, he's probably in the vicinity.  He may have known about Jon and his hunting party all on his own as well.

Those are both possibilities.  I was kind of assuming it was the latter, although I had not considered the 3 eyed raven calling him.  If that was the case though, I would have appreciated maybe a five second scene showing us Bran's involvement for those of us who perhaps aren't as sharp at putting the pieces together.

1 hour ago, Thinbalina said:

I'm starting to wonder if that scene really involved Arya as Sansa..

An interesting idea, although again it leaves open the question as to why?  I don't see why they wanted Sansa at King's Landing anyway, Jon is going to the big meeting to represent Winterfell.  And seriously, no one in the right mind would expect Sansa to step foot back in that place again.

This episode brought up the question about the Faceless Men again.  I had orginally thought that they had to literally carve off the face and wear it to use it.  Then others pointed out that Jaqen had appeared with Arya's face, and the Waif (I think) had appeared as Jaqen.  Some said that was different, that was some sort of magic, but I just figured I was wrong.  But this episode seems to suggest that they need to literally cut off the face.  Arya is carrying faces in her suitcase, and she talks about how if she wanted to become Sansa, all she'd have to do is take her face (threatening her with the knife).  So now I'm wondering again.  If she could just change faces by magic, why carry the faces around?  Why do they store all those faces in Braavos?  Maybe there's some inconsistency in the writing here.

But for the above reason, I don't think Arya was posing as Sansa when she talked to Brienne.  If Arya wanted to pose as Sansa, seems like she would go to King's Landing as her, and assassinate Cersei.

[Lemuria]

17 hours ago, MadMouse said:

Also we have the Northern Lords disrespecting and plotting against Jon who we know Arya loves more than anyone.

Ah, yes, Lord Glover.  "...and I'll regret that to my dying day."  

Or, two months.  Whichever comes first.

[Blonde Gator]

12 minutes ago, rmontro said:

 

Those are both possibilities.  I was kind of assuming it was the latter, although I had not considered the 3 eyed raven calling him.  If that was the case though, I would have appreciated maybe a five second scene showing us Bran's involvement for those of us who perhaps aren't as sharp at putting the pieces together.

An interesting idea, although again it leaves open the question as to why?  I don't see why they wanted Sansa at King's Landing anyway, Jon is going to the big meeting to represent Winterfell.  And seriously, no one in the right mind would expect Sansa to step foot back in that place again.

This episode brought up the question about the Faceless Men again.  I had orginally thought that they had to literally carve off the face and wear it to use it.  Then others pointed out that Jaqen had appeared with Arya's face, and the Waif (I think) had appeared as Jaqen.  Some said that was different, that was some sort of magic, but I just figured I was wrong.  But this episode seems to suggest that they need to literally cut off the face.  Arya is carrying faces in her suitcase, and she talks about how if she wanted to become Sansa, all she'd have to do is take her face (threatening her with the knife).  So now I'm wondering again.  If she could just change faces by magic, why carry the faces around?  Why do they store all those faces in Braavos?  Maybe there's some inconsistency in the writing here.

But for the above reason, I don't think Arya was posing as Sansa when she talked to Brienne.  If Arya wanted to pose as Sansa, seems like she would go to King's Landing as her, and assassinate Cersei.

Although we didn't get to read the note, and Sansa didn't spell out WHAT the invitation said, I'd imagine it was something along the lines of a joint invitation from Cersei and Danaerys, to all of the Lords of the Great Houses/Wardens in Westeros, and perhaps to the Grand Maesters at the Citadel, asking for the honor of their presence in King's Landing to discuss a matter of great and grave importance to the Realm.  This would be the only thing that would make sense as to why Sansa specifically got an invitation (from Tyrion).

As for the Faceless men, I believe the less experienced assassins among them have to use actual faces of dead people, whether from the "library" of faces at the House of Black and White in Braavos, or from newly dead victims.  The FM's don the faces with the assistance of magic, to complete the "glamour" of changing shape, body size, sex, voice and speech patterns, etc.   Arya is still a fairly inexperienced assassin, so she must carry faces with her.  Experienced FM's, like J'quen Hagar, don't need to carry the faces, they can more-or-less magically reuse faces (not exactly, but the closest analogy I can reach) without physically having to carry faces around with them.

In order for Arya to become Sansa, she'd have to kill her, and take her face.  So it wasn't Arya.  But I won't be surprised to see LF show up at the big King's Landing confab....particularly if he's been sneakily offed by the Stark girls in Winterfell first.  We know from the Preview that Pod & Brienne are there.

[KaleyFirefly]

10 hours ago, dragonsbite said:

Someone will just slip this note under her door:
        "Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony."
</sneaks away>

"Oh, Queen, eh? Very nice. But I didn't vote for you."

[jeansheridan]

3 hours ago, Tikichick said:

Honestly I have grave concerns Bran isn't an ally or asset the Starks or the north can confidently rely upon. 

Do you mean the NK has turned him or that he just wasn't ready to be the Three Eyed Raven? Because I am unsure why the perfectly adequate three eyed raven needed to be replaced. Also it is deeply plausible Bran could fail again. In the books that young lord who seems sweet dies trying to help Dany during the ambush in Meereen. He was honorable and good intentioned but not able to rise to the moment. Maybe Bran won't. 

[Raachel2008]

I'm in the minority here, but I really liked this episode. It is one of my favorites, though, like everyone else, there are a few things there that drove me nuts.

Differently than most, I don't think the wight hunt was a stupid plan. It's the the bigger picture that is stupid, but I will get there. The wight hunt was a dangerous suicide mission with very little chance of success, like all heroic against all odds suicide missions. And yet it was a success. They captured the wight. The human losses were minimal: the KITN lives, the leader  of the freefolk lives, the head of the Brotherhood lives, the only living Baraethon lives, the trusted advisor of Daenerys Targaryen lives.  Dany now  not only believes the WW threat but she knows the extent of the NK power - and this is why I cannot be against Viserion dying: his death is what showed her that. If the KN hadn't killed Viserion, then the WW would be just like any other enemy, just a bit harder to beat. Dany has burnt people, fleets, armies. But she has never met a power up to her dragons. So yeah, Viserion had to die, because his death showed that the NK and the WW are a bigger threat than anyone could have possibly imagined adn evened the war to come. And it was Viserion's death that commited Dany to the fight against the WW, and it was her commitment  - as well as saving them - that made Jon see that he could trust Dany and bend the knee.

That's not to say that there weren't problems there, because there was a ton of them.  The chains didn't bother me; the wildlings had them, but the tension and force to lift Viserion were all wrong, and who went underwater to tie him? A WW? Jon and co had provisions, there was an aerial shot showing the red shirt carrying some sort of boxes, or whatever that was, and they had dragonglass. The ice thing didn't bother me, that happens on Artic why it wouldn't happen North of the wall? But if one of the WW or the KN could go underwater to put those chains in place, why they didn't go after Jon and the others? Was the KN expecting Dany? Did he forsee it? I gave up a long time on the timeline and travel warp is a reality in this show, but what I saw on screen implied it took days to meet the wights, while sleeping, stopping to eat, etc. But Gendry, who has never been in the North, who has never seen snow, who is the least used to walk/run/work around such a hard environment is supposed to be Bolt on an adrenaline rush? Why didn't they put up an alarm system, something like, I dunno a wildling every xx miles, so if something goes wrongs someones shoots a flaming arrow into the sky and alert the previous one and so on?  Or something like that? I also don't understand why Jon ketp fighting the wights. Yes, he is Jon Snow he will always try to save others, blah blah blah. But really? Plot >>> characters = stupidity.

For me two things were really annoying, though. The first one was Tormund asking for Gendry's axe. I understand where he was coming from, but when you are not used to ice and snow, you know, those things Gendry had never seen in his entire life, walking is hard, running is almost impossible. The axe, or sword or spear or whatever works like a snow stick. It helps A LOT. So stupid. The second, and others have said the same, is that no one died. No, I didn't want any of them to die, but Thoros is a minor character in the show, so it should have been Tormund or the Hound. Tormund fills the 'wildling' role, so the Hound had to go. I guess they are saving the deaths for next season.

Oh, there is a third thing: Beric told Jon he met his mother. And Jon is all, ah okay, fine? That made no sense for me. I can't buy for a second that Jon wouldn't ask more. It is his mother, the mother he has always wanted to know about. Or was Beric being all metaphorical and I didn't catch it?

Anyway, the wight hunt wasn't a problem for me. The wight hunt lead to Dany rescuing them, Dany rescuing them lead to Viserion being killed, Viserion being killed lead to Danny being trully commited to fight the WW and Danny's commitment lead to Jon bending the knee. So yeah, from a narrative POV the wight hunt was needed. Of couse the wight hunt wouldn't have happened if Dany had just conquered King's Landing. This is the bigger picture: D&D inadequacy to write the Dany x Cersei stuff in a believable way. Had Dany conquered King's Landing and the Iron Throne, no need to a wight to impress Cersei ( or Dany herself which I think is the real there). But since it didn't happen, wight hunt it is.

All in all, the way I see it the problem is not the plot itself, but how they cannot tie those lose ends.  I'm sure that if you have these exactly plots - Dany cannot attack Cersei, there has to be a wight hunt - if you give them to ten smart fans and fiction writers, they would have done better and found elegant solutions for all our complaints.

ETA: I loved all the small talk between the members of the Fellowship of the Doomed. That was the best part of the episode, and the only one that really sounded like something George would have written - with better words, or course. Also,  Richard Dormer's voice is something.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Raachel2008

[dragonsbite]

7 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

Oh, there is a third thing: Beric told Jon he met his mother. And Jon is all, ah okay, fine? That made no sense for me. I can't buy for a second that Jon wouldn't ask more. It is his mother, the mother he has always wanted to know about. Or was Beric being all metaphorical and I didn't catch it?

The first time I saw the episode, I thought Beric said, "I met your mother."
But on rewatch, Beric says, "I met your father. You don't look like him. You must resemble your mother."

[MVFrostsMyPie]

The chain of events (no pun intended re: those mysterious magical chains that the WW abracadabra'd out of nowhere and use no strength to ) during the stuck-on-an-island-surrounded-by-WW scene was a little too predictable. 

The Hound throws a rock at WW. Me: Um, let me guess you'll throw another rock, it'll land on the ice but it won't break it. Here we go!

Dany and her dragons start flying in. Me: Well duh, she has to show up so the NK can kill one of the dragons and totally turn it into a zombie dragon. Hellooooo.

[rmontro]

11 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

.  The chains didn't bother me; the wildlings had them, but the tension and force to lift Viserion were all wrong, and who went underwater to tie him? A WW?

I don't imagine dead people have to breathe, so I don't see why some of the dead horde couldn't have dived down and secured Viserion.

As for Jon not looking like his father, maybe he doesn't.  But he's still half Stark, and his mother is Ned's sister, so he shouldn't be too far off the tree.

[Blonde Gator]

19 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

I'm in the minority here, but I really liked this episode. It is one of my favorites, though, like everyone else, there are a few things there that drove me nuts.

.

Oh, there is a third thing: Beric told Jon he met his mother. And Jon is all, ah okay, fine? That made no sense for me. I can't buy for a second that Jon wouldn't ask more. It is his mother, the mother he has always wanted to know about. Or was Beric being all metaphorical and I didn't catch it?

.

An excellent and well reasoned (and different) take on the Wight hunt.  I like it.

As for Beric re: Jon's mother.....he didn't say he met her.  He was talking to Jon about his father (Ned) and said "you don't look much like your father, you must take after your mother".   I think you merely didn't quite catch the dialog correctly.

That Beric says "you must take after your mother", as far as Jon's looks, is kind of funny, because book Ned has two children who really look like he does, Jon, and Arya.  Robb, Sansa, Bran all take after the Tully's, with the reddish hair and blue eyes, whereas The "Stark look" is dark hair, wiry and thin, with gray eyes (Ned's eyes are said to be changeable, from light to dark, when he's upset).  AND, Arya is said to very much resemble her aunt Lyanna, who is a Stark through and through.

So Beric's saying "you must take after your mother" is kind of lame.  Because both Ned & Lyanna have the "look" of the Starks.  Even Craster picked out Jon as a Stark immediately in the books. 

Hope that cleared up your Beric/Jon convo confusion.  I LOVED Beric, I'm really sorry we didn't get more of him as a minor character on the show.  He's an excellent actor (and quite dashing w/o his GOT costume), and his voice.........  This episode had a group of some of the best male voices, ever.   They should get together and release a GOT audio cookbook or something, LOL.

[jeansheridan]

5 hours ago, Francie said:

Third realization on second watch through.  Tyrion isn't in love with Daenerys -- she's a mother replacement. And that's why he's terrified of her dying. 

I don't get your thinking. Tyrion is an idealist on the show. He is more of an opportunist in the books. But show Tyrion needs to believe that he can improve the world, even if it just improving the sewers at Casterly Rock. Dany is his vehicle to do so. I don't see her as a mother figure. I see them as colleagues. Maybe not quite equals but there is mutual respect.  That's why he is gracious and kind to Jorah. He can afford to be. Tyrion knows where he stands with Dany. 

I really am hoping Tyrion and Sansa meet again. I think they could have a great power couple marriage/alliance. And it doesn't hurt that show Tyrion looks like Peter Dinklage. He is very handsome and would respect Sansa's history.

[Blonde Gator]

14 minutes ago, rmontro said:

I don't imagine dead people have to breathe, so I don't see why some of the dead horde couldn't have dived down and secured Viserion.

As for Jon not looking like his father, maybe he doesn't.  But he's still half Stark, and his mother is Ned's sister, so he shouldn't be too far off the tree.

Totally agree, but I think the writers could have done a better job with the raising of Viserion.  Without changing anything at all, really, and keeping us bookies off their ass for stupid short-cuts.

Instead of immediately having four (!?!) gigantic aircraft carrier sized METAL chains, ready and waiting for a dead dragon North of the Wall, where metallurgy is a barely known art (except amongst the Thenns, who are pure first men and still create bronze).....the Night's King could have resurrected Viserion from shore of the lake, as Viserion lay dead and immobile on the bottom, and had a blue-eyed Viserion slowly and painfully climb out of the water, dripping freezing water and being totally pissed off, and opening his fantastic blue eyes!   Viserion lets out a gigantic roar (and ice flames)......or not. 

That would have eliminated the stupid chains, and also the utilization of the wights as some sort of a working slave labor force, instead of just a bunch of mindless zombie killers. 

Easy peasy, and no suspension of disbelief on the part of millions of viewers regarding 20th century aircraft carrier chains!

[Raachel2008]

20 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

As for Beric re: Jon's mother.....he didn't say he met her.  He was talking to Jon about his father (Ned) and said "you don't look much like your father, you must take after your mother".   I think you merely didn't quite catch the dialog correctly.

Ah, thank you!

20 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

That Beric says "you must take after your mother", as far as Jon's looks, is kind of funny, because book Ned has two children who really look like he does, Jon, and Arya.  Robb, Sansa, Bran all take after the Tully's, with the reddish hair and blue eyes, whereas The "Stark look" is dark hair, wiry and thin, with gray eyes (Ned's eyes are said to be changeable, from light to dark, when he's upset).  AND, Arya is said to very much resemble her aunt Lyanna, who is a Stark through and through.

Not in the show though. 

34 minutes ago, rmontro said:

I don't imagine dead people have to breathe, so I don't see why some of the dead horde couldn't have dived down and secured Viserion.

Because they couldn't reach that small island Jon and the others were. They stopped and waited for the water to froze. So my reasoning is that they cannot swim or dive, so how did they tie Viserion?

[britesongs]

22 hours ago, FemmyV said:

And where DID those chains come from? Ace Hardware Beyond The Wall?

Hardhome Depot, actually.

[KaleyFirefly]

8 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

They should have just had the dragon come busting out of the water, have had all the fans gasp in delight, only for him to turn towards the camera, fix us all with a blue eye and let loose a stream of blue ice death right at the camera.  Roll credits.   Those chains were just kind of goofy, particularly since they've made such a damned point of Wights not being able to swim.  

That would have been great!

[OhOkayWhat]

This episode shows one of the reason why I find this season so interesting: the heart in conflict with itself. The characters struggle with their own doubts, their own feelings. The trauma and consequences. Lots and lots of character building. 

By the way, even the Giants used really big chains.

I read a long list (in other forum) of maybe 20 "problems" with the episode. Maybe 3 or 4 are real ones. The rest are not problems at all. 

Edited August 22, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[britesongs]

11 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Why would he risk the one person he needs to take the North ? his little game with the Boltons did backfire on him, he just happened to have what Sansa needed and though they are ruled by LF, they swore to the North and  as Royce said they came for her.

Royce isn't going to do his bidding, at least not willingly or without rebuttal. 

I don't think he believes Sansa will go south, so as far as I'm concerned, he doesn't believe he's risking her. Unless you mean she is at greater risk from Arya with Brienne being gone? In which case he shouldn't have started Arya on this path. I believe he knew Sansa would send Brienne and wanted to separate her from anyone else from whom she might seek counsel.

ITA about Royce et. al. I'm not sure why Sansa hasn't enlisted him or another Vale knight or lord to kill Littlefinger (aside from D&D's apparent belief in the necessity of manufacturing Stark sister drama). She'd have no problem talking Robin Arryn into whatever she wanted and there would be no one who would oppose whatever version of LF's death she decided to tell him.

[arjumand]

3 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Tyrion devised the plan to send Yara's fleet to ferry the Dornish army to King's Landing, to capture Casterly Rock with the Unsullied and now to send a team to capture a wight to try to make a deal with his sister, whom he acknowledges is totally untrustworthy

As a result of this, they've lost Dorne and The Reach, the Unsullied have been neutralized for the moment and now Viserion is dead

Why does Tyrion still have a job?

At this point I'm just rolling my eyes at everything he says. My favourite part was when he said something to the effect of "Of course, Cersei is planning to kill us all, right? We're walking into a trap, you know this, right? But we're not going to make a trap of our own, in case something goes wrong, oh no. We're better than that."

Editing to add - I'm kind of ignoring his "of course, if she touches you, we'll burn the Red Keep to its foundations." Because he undercut it straightaway, in his very next utterance, and he spent five minutes yammering on about the succession, when there's a much more urgent problem coming up: how to get out of KL again.

And the whole bit of figuring out her succession before she even gets the throne is also making me give him the side-eye. I come from a very superstitious people - we'd be making horn signs (to ward off bad luck) and burning olive leaves (to ward off bad luck) by now. 

Last episode, a poster reacted to Tyrion's "Daenerys will win this war" with 'oh, shit! She's totally gonna lose!" This week's pronouncement was: "If you die, we're all lost!"

My spec: Dany will die, but they won't be lost, because of Jon. That's why he couldn't ride the dragon in this episode. His becoming a dragonrider has to be a much more dramatic moment, and he has to do it in his own right, not as a companion with many others.

Edited August 22, 2017 by arjumand

[OhOkayWhat]

After this episode I believe in the theory that the Night King was (as human) a warg and a greenseer.

[GrailKing]

24 minutes ago, britesongs said:

I don't think he believes Sansa will go south, so as far as I'm concerned, he doesn't believe he's risking her. Unless you mean she is at greater risk from Arya with Brienne being gone? In which case he shouldn't have started Arya on this path. I believe he knew Sansa would send Brienne and wanted to separate her from anyone else from whom she might seek counsel.

ITA about Royce et. al. I'm not sure why Sansa hasn't enlisted him or another Vale knight or lord to kill Littlefinger (aside from D&D's apparent belief in the necessity of manufacturing Stark sister drama). She'd have no problem talking Robin Arryn into whatever she wanted and there would be no one who would oppose whatever version of LF's death she decided to tell him.

Mentioning Brienne's vows isn't for nothing, when Arya sparred, first words out of her mouth was your sworn to protect both my mother's daughters, and B nodded yes, as soon as that happened they panned to Sansa who gave a quick side glance at LF, Sansa knew that he could use that to put a wedge between her and Arya. come to this weeks show, Sansa knows where that scroll came from LF, she lets him know that the scroll could make her bad ( even under duress ) and Jon's army revolt, what does LF bring up Brienne's vows, next thing we know an invite to KL comes, 6 years around LF, at least 2-3 at the Eyrie, where she's running his affairs, she knows his handwriting, Tyrion knows she won't go, and Dany has Jon, so it's likely Cersei.

Sansa sends Brienne gets her away from LF and removes a piece from his side of the board.

Sansa's taking a risk and putting her trust into Arya.

[britesongs]

10 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

so it's likely Cersei

I get everything you're saying about the maneuvering happening between Sansa and LF with regards to Brienne. It makes sense.

BUT, there is literally no reason I can think of or that I've read for Cersei to send that invite though. That's where I struggle making sense of this. No one has any reason to send Sansa an invite because she isn't involved in anything outside Winterfell. Whatever role she would have related to Winterfell and the North would already be filled by Jon's presence. And I don't think Cersei is the one calling the meeting about the WW; the Tyrion/Dany/Jon side is and she is merely agreeing to it.

Maybe it was Tyrion and he wants to renew their vows.

[Oscirus]

1 hour ago, britesongs said:

Maybe it was Tyrion and he wants to renew their vows.

LOL those two would actually have more chemistry than Jon and Dany.

 

I don't get the theory that Sansa and Arya are play acting to sucker Littlefinger in. If Sansa want to get rid of Littlefinger, she has the means to do so. 

[WebosFritos]

7 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Sorry, but I just watched this scene multiple times, and I have to disagree. That was just the camera angle and reflections. The eyes looked white and then black; I never thought they looked blue, and especially not the icy light blue shade of WW. I think the hilt got splashed with water so the lighting changed. 

What was really weird about the shot is that the wolf on Longclaw has alway had black eyes, some kind of gem, and yet they were clearly white when Jon was underwater . It might not mean much but I don't think it was just reflections.

 

16 hours ago, MadMouse said:

Why would either of them be weirded out? Dany expected to marry Viserys, Jon's Stark grandparents were cousins and there's been an uncle/niece marriage in the Stark family tree.

It's just what I'd like to see on the show. I know incest is pretty common in the books but the show is still made for modern audiences. I think they have pointed out that the Targaryens marrying each other was the reason they went mad. I don't remember if uncle/niece marriages in the Stark family have been mentioned on the show as a common thing but in real life they were very rarely practiced. And I think the show has made it clear that people still look down on Cersei and Jaime's relationship, for example, as Tormund made a joke about them last episode.

Like I said, it's just a personal preference but I'll be disappointed if there isn't any weirdness between them when they learn that they are closely related. 

Edited August 22, 2017 by WebosFritos

[screamin]

2 hours ago, WebosFritos said:

What was really weird about the shot is that the wolf on Longclaw has alway had black eyes, some kind of gem, and yet they were clearly white when Jon was underwater . It might not mean much but I don't think it was just reflections.

 

It's just what I'd like to see on the show. I know incest is pretty common in the books but the show is still made for modern audiences. I think they have pointed out that the Targaryens marrying each other was the reason they went mad. I don't remember if uncle/niece marriages in the Stark family have been mentioned on the show as a common thing but in real life they were very rarely practiced. And I think the show has made it clear that people still look down on Cersei and Jaime's relationship, for example, as Tormund made a joke about them last episode.

Like I said, it's just a personal preference but I'll be disappointed if there isn't any weirdness between them when they learn that they are closely related. 

Among the aristocracy in our world (and Jon and Dany are both aristocrats) uncle-niece marriages weren't that uncommon in the age of arranged marriages, for political reasons.

[Hana Chan]

20 minutes ago, screamin said:

Among the aristocracy in our world (and Jon and Dany are both aristocrats) uncle-niece marriages weren't that uncommon in the age of arranged marriages, for political reasons.

And in this world, where Queens fucking their brothers has become a punchline even at the Wall, an aunt/nephew relationship will likely elicit yawns. 

I've said it before... even if Jon and Dany don't feel much romantically towards one another, a political marriage between them makes tremendous sense. Jon right now controls the single largest territory in Westeros and is a respected warrior. And while he may be on the shorter side, he's very easy on the eyes and has decent manners. Dany could do far, far worse.