S07.E05: Eastwatch

[Willowy]

Why would Sam be angry or feel butthurt by his ragingly abusive father being roasted? He's seen and endured far worse and he's made far better/stronger relationships with Jon and Gilly than he ever had with that stiff-necked thistle-head. He may feel a twinge for his brother but it seems Dickon never really protected Sam from his mean dad... so fuck 'em.

I'm not so sure Arya is falling for Littlefingers machinations. At least if she is right now, she may not be for long. She's been taught to see every side, every possibility, and she is a master spy and assassin. Littlefinger is good, but at best he's a classic manipulator and opportunist. Arya is better at this than he is. I hope she gets a chance to show Sansa just how much better at it she is.

And why wouldn't she know how to pick locks? That's Spy School 101.

Gendry!

God I love Davos.

Beric Dondarrion's voice makes me feel all melty.

Love the rag-tag band of not so merry men, but what is the plan exactly? To sneak up on the dead, then grab one and hightail it outta there? I don't understand their plan but if they pull it off I want them to turn it loose in Cersei's bedroom and watch her smug-ass face FREAK THE FUCK OUT before they charge in and rescue her. 

Tormund Giantsbane is an adorable force of fearless nature Greek god Zeus made flesh. AND he's hilarious. "Did you bring the big woman?"

I was floored... like actually gasped at the beauty with which they are rendering Drogon. He is magnificent, and the way they are framing the shots of him are breathtaking. He had better NOT die. I'm now not so worried about there being poison on the spear as I was before, because Cersei would've gloated about it if there had been.

I'm so angry I have to wait a week for more. So much happened tonight, yet I'm like a bingey Netflix child screaming for the next episode. 

[Oscirus]

5 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I don't see that at all.  She listened to what they said, and calmed them down. 

She placated, cajoled, did what she had to do to calm them down. Northern leaders from Ned to Robb to Jon have all done a "my way or the highway" type of rule.  I can only imagine that's a northern thing and not a gender thing.

[SimoneS]

2 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

Isn't he the son of the King's first son? That's how it typically goes.

 

2 minutes ago, The Kings Foot said:

He's the mad kings grandson,  not nephew. 

You are correct. I forgot that Rhaegar was Aerys' son. 

[stagmania]

4 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I keep reading that Jon is the heir. I don't get where that comes from. In no European monarchy succession (which this story is based on) can the king's nephew claim succession right to the throne over any of his children, male or female. 

He is Rhaegar's heir. Rhaegar became king when Aerys died, so Jon would have a claim. Daenerys also has a claim, though, so I don't think it's clear cut. 

[Advance35]

Quote

Im personally betting on Gendry-Sansa. And the sounds of a million Arya fans screaming in the night. 

OMG I would so be on board for that reason alone LMAO.

I like that you can tell Sansa spent her time in a completely different environment. Episodes ago when Jon told Sansa "Everything before the word "but" is horse sh*t", Sansa was selling the kind of flattery that is par the course in Kings Landing.  She still has a LOT to learn but there probably isn't a Royal Court or Ballroom that Sansa couldn't flourish in, during peace time.

Quote

Why would Sam be angry or feel butthurt by his ragingly abusive father being roasted? He's seen and endured far worse and he's made far better/stronger relationships with Jon and Gilly than he ever had with that stiff-necked thistle-head. He may feel a twinge for his brother but it seems Dickon never really protected Sam from his mean dad... so fuck 'em.

Sam's Mother and Sister probably won't have the same outlook.  For Dickons sake if not Randyll's.  Dickon didn't strike me as a bad egg.  He clearly loved his Father a great deal and whatever issues present with Sam, Randyll clearly loved Dickon.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Advance35

[Moya the Leviathan]

1 minute ago, SimoneS said:

I keep reading that Jon is the heir. I don't get where that comes from. In no European monarchy succession (which this story is based on) can the king's nephew claim succession right to the throne over any of his children, male or female. 

The Targ family tree is super convoluted because of all the incest, but the Mad King (Dany's father) had 3 kids, Rhaegar (who was meant to be successor), Viserys (the icky one we met in season 1) and Dany, who as a woman, only comes in line if Rhaegar and Viserys die without acknowledged kids.  Rhaegar had an affair that produced bastard Jon Snow (Jon is not Ned Stark's bastard, but Rhaegar).  Now we hear that Jon Snow is legitimate, so he moves up in line ahead of his Aunt Dany.

[SimoneS]

3 minutes ago, Willowy said:

Beric Dondarrion's voice makes me feel all melty.

He does have a sexy voice.

[that one guy]

3 minutes ago, alaynestone said:

This seems so soap opera-ish to me.

Well, Game of Thrones is very much a soap opera, so that tracks.  I mentioned that article to my stepmother who has never watched the show. She's like, secret/mistaken identies? Was anybody dead and then come back? I explained about the Hound and Jon, and then I'm like, "oh and his parents weren't who he thinks they were and the audience knows," and she says, "that's totally a soap opera." That shouldn't be a naughty word, the problem with soaps is the low production values and shoddy writing process, not the structure or content itself. 

 

10 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

 I'm not sure where this of idea of Sansa wants power above all is coming from. Like everyone else, she likely wants many things and prioritizes them.

It's mostly in Arya's head. Arya is a crazy person, deepliy traumatized, angry and paranoid. Sansa sided with Joffrey and lied to the King. Sansa was standing on the steps of the Great Sept with the Lannisters when their dad was beheaded. They haven't seen each other since. Arya just doesn't trust her. And Littlefinger is using that to sow chaos and dischord because that's what Littlefinger does.

[Oscirus]

Just now, stagmania said:

He is Rhaegar's heir. Rhaegar became king when Aerys died, so Jon would have a claim. Daenerys also has a claim, though, so I don't think it's clear cut. 

No he didn't, Rhaegar died before Aerys did.

[SeanC]

Just now, Oscirus said:

She placated, cajoled, did what she had to do to calm them down. Northern leaders from Ned to Robb to Jon have all done a "my way or the highway" type of rule.  I can only imagine that's a northern thing and not a gender thing.

Robb defused the tension with the Greatjoin in S1E8 with a joke, as I recall, rather than have the Greatjon executed for treason.

[GrailKing]

25 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

I didn't see what you saw.  Sansa seemed more stunned/disturbed than anything.

She really looked hurt by that comments, she's doing the right thing and getting shit on just like Jon, ruling sucks, Arya should try it.

[dargosmydaddy]

Gendry! He better not have returned just to become White Walker fodder...

Echoing that Davos is the best.

Tyrion, on the other hand, needs to learn how to look before he rambles down paths toward gold cloaks. Though it was nice to see Gendry's hammers in action.

Shouldn't the crew venturing north of the wall maybe invest in some hats? Earmuffs, at least?

Is it just me, or does Little Sam look, like, a year older than he did in the first episode of the season?

Reunions I am atill hoping to see: Gendry/ Arya, Jon/ Arya, Pod/ Tyrion

Edited August 14, 2017 by dargosmydaddy

[GrailKing]

27 minutes ago, anamika said:

They don't need to spin that epiphany because they will never accept that Arya is right about Sansa wanting to rule the North. Arya is just being unnecessarily jealous and petty. Stop assuming Sansa is evil dammit!

Also Lord Glover continues to be a waste of time. After all that sword waving and big words, here he is saying that he regrets making Jon king. I can't even enjoy the KITN scene anymore because of this asshole and knowing that was all fake.

Now we wait to see in WF whom is playing who.

[LanceM]

Dany's claim comes from being Viserys's heir. Viserys was crowned King on Dragonstone prior to them fleeing to Essos.

Jon's claim would be that he is Rhaegar's trueborn son.

Whose claim is stronger depends on who you ask.  Look back at the war of the 5 kings and who was supporting Renly and Stannis.

[CofCinci]

"Did ya bring the big woman?"

As if he doesn't know her name? 

[dbell1]

I could be wrong on the scroll since I was watching in real time, not freeze framing. But I swear I saw "Jon" "poison" and Lyssa's signature. And yep, I remember Catlyn burning the scroll. But considering all that happened afterwards with the attempt on Bran, they're probably hand waving it and saying Maester Leuwin wrote down a copy. I think in the book the message was inside a jewelry box. 

[GrailKing]

29 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Hey does anyone find it ironic that fat beta-male Sam is probably getting the most sex out of anyone in Westeros? He and Gilly obviously have a very loving relationship.

I don't know, looks like he gets home and says not tonight I have a headache.  LOL

[Oscirus]

1 minute ago, CofCinci said:

"Did ya bring the big woman?"

As if he doesn't know her name? 

He was clearly talking about Walda hence the "big" part of the comment. 

[GrailKing]

29 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

I think this episode is proving that Sansa is more a kings landing type of leader than a winterfell leader. She plays the game, better then most nowadays. North don't have the time for games so they're straight to the point. 

They may be straight to the point, but they're acting dumb as fuck.

[Francie]

2 minutes ago, CofCinci said:

"Did ya bring the big woman?"

As if he doesn't know her name? 

Well, you know, he doesn't want to seem obvious. 

Dammit, where's the sarcasm font?

[KaleyFirefly]

1 hour ago, aquarian1 said:

Gendry!  
Davos "I thought you might still be rowing" Sucn fanservice, but I loved it.

Also, "Don't mind me.  I'm just someone that's lived to a ripe old age."

Davos is so great.

[stagmania]

14 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

No he didn't, Rhaegar died before Aerys did.

Ah, okay. So that just makes the battling claims even more competitive. I don't think either of them is a clear outright heir.

6 minutes ago, CofCinci said:

"Did ya bring the big woman?"

As if he doesn't know her name? 

He's clearly trying to play it cool.

[Moya the Leviathan]

25 minutes ago, KaleyFirefly said:

Probably not the best moment to be mentioning extra Tarlys to Danerys though...

yeah, the timing is a little unfortunate, but Jorah keeps getting "I knew your Dad..."  and Sam is going to be adorkable when he meets Dany. Probably will have a diaper in hand when getting introduced.  

[Paradigm14]

2 minutes ago, stagmania said:

Ah, okay. So that just makes the battling claims even more competitive. I don't think either of them is a clear outright heir.

He's clearly trying to play it cool.

Nope, matters what order they're born, not what order they die. As the first son of the first son, Jon wins.

[SimoneS]

17 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

No he didn't, Rhaegar died before Aerys did.

Then Dany is the heir. Brings me back to  why are so many people claiming Jon is?

[Macbeth]

I wondered what happened to the Brotherhood.

Of course while they finally made it to the North - Jon has traveled to the South and then back to the North.

Beric - You may have risen more times from the dead than Jon.  But Jon has a teleporter.

[SimoneS]

41 minutes ago, Paradigm14 said:

Nope, matters what order they're born, not what order they die. As the first son of the first son, Jon wins.

Actually it does matter what order people die in European and most other monarchy successions. There is no way that Jon could inherit over Dany if Aryes passed over Aegon and crowned Viserys king as I just read. 

Edited August 14, 2017 by SimoneS

[Francie]

11 minutes ago, CofCinci said:

"Did ya bring the big woman?"

As if he doesn't know her name? 

You know he's been writing on the back of raven scrolls "Mr. Tormund Tarth" over and over again. 

[Oscirus]

1 minute ago, Macbeth said:

I wondered what happened to the Brotherhood.

Of course while they finally made it to the North - Jon has traveled to the South and then back to the North.

Beric - You may have risen more times from the dead than Jon.  But Jon has a teleporter.

Jon stole Littlefinger's teleporter while Littlefinger was busy ogling his sister.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Oscirus

[GrailKing]

35 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

I don't think Arya "needs" a love interest.

Nah, she needs a bop upside the head to get her out of season 1 mode.

[TiredMe]

Why did Cersei say Jamie better not betray her again? It's not his fault he got conned into meeting with Tyrion.

[VCRTracking]

Okay I kept thinking of this by the end:

[mojoween]

We paused the scroll and the one Arya was looking at was signed "your sister Sansa", talked about someone getting killed and mentioned Joffrey twice, once I think mentioning him as the king.

[Growsonwalls]

1 minute ago, GrailKing said:

Nah, she needs a bop upside the head to get her out of season 1 mode.

I sort of ship Arya and Brienne. I always thought Arya was lesbian.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Growsonwalls

[sumiregusa]

1 minute ago, TiredMe said:

Why did Cersei say Jamie better not betray her again? It's not his fault he got conned into meeting with Tyrion.

What does Cersei ever mean by anything she says? She demands allegiance without negotiation. She's the true mad queen. 

[Willowy]

Maybe, but she def 'appreciated' Gendry.

[GrailKing]

5 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

I sort of ship Arya and Brienne. I always thought Arya was lesbian.

I honestly only shiped 1 pairing, but he's not on the show, Ned Dayne with Sansa.

Edited August 14, 2017 by GrailKing

[Oscirus]

6 minutes ago, TiredMe said:

Why did Cersei say Jamie better not betray her again? It's not his fault he got conned into meeting with Tyrion.

In her mind, picking Tyrion over her is a betrayal and he's done it numerous times throughout this show. Latest being defending him to her earlier in this show.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Oscirus

[Paradigm14]

6 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Actually it does matter what order people die in European and most other monarchy successions. There is no way that Jon could inherit over Dany.

Not buying it. Also wouldn't fit the story.

[GrailKing]

40 minutes ago, stagmania said:

Not sure if this is a joke, but I don't think either sister is going to end up in a romance. They have bigger fish to fry. Sansa/Gendry would be truly random and Arya seems not remotely interested in that kind of relationship. Plus, if they wanted us to know Gendry ever thinks of Arya that scene with Jon would've been the moment to do it. 

Actually, Bobby B been right on the Dotdraki's, wars coming, so he may still be correct on the Starks and Baratheons  joining houses.

[Willowy]

Jamie can 'defend' Tyrion all he likes. That's not any kind of 'betrayal'. I didn't get that either, from Cersei. Is she trying to control Jaime with fear? Fuck that, he faced down a fucking dragon, I can totally see him MAKING Cersei listen to his one-armed ass. Jaime knows what's UP.

[Francie]

Dany in episode one to Vary:  Don't ever betray me.

Cersei to Jaime this episode: Don't ever betray me again. 

And the parallels keep happening. 

So, any takers on both Varys and Jaime betraying their respective queens for the good of the realm? 

[WatchrTina]

THE GOOD

Hey look! Eastwatch-by-the-Sea is in the opening credits!

Hey look!  Drogon can smell that Jon is a Targaryan.

Hey look! Ser Jorah is back.

Hey look! Gendry is back.

Hey look!  The Hound and Ser Beric Dondarrian and Thoros of Myr!

Seriously – that dream team in the last shot (everyone above + Tormund) is made of win.

Also, Davos’ joke to Gendry about wondering if he was “still rowing” – that was some awesome fan service there.

 

THE BAD

Oh look, Arya & Sansa are fighting again.  And Arya thinks chopping off the heads of allies is a good idea. And Littlefinger is plotting and smirking from the shadows again.  I hated every moment in Winterfell.

Cersie.  I hated every minute that she was on screen.  I hate that she “let” the meeting between Tyrion and Jamie take place.  I hate that she now wants to punish Bronn for setting up the meeting.  And I hate that she’s pretending to be pregnant (because until she is in active labor I ain’t believing it.)

 

THE UGLY

Not only did Dany burn people alive – she burned a “good” guy – Dickon Tarley.  (Damn, what a waste of a fine-looking actor, who never got an opportunity to take off his shirt and show off that exceptional body.) 

Also, Gendry’s new hairdo sucks.

 

UNANSWERED QUESTIONS

Uh, did Gilly just find evidence that Raeygar Targaryan annulled his first marriage so that he could marry Leanna Stark (making Jon the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne)?

Edited August 14, 2017 by WatchrTina

[Drogo]

Can't wait to try that new Dickon' the Barbie special at Outback.

[Francie]

7 minutes ago, TiredMe said:

Why did Cersei say Jamie better not betray her again? It's not his fault he got conned into meeting with Tyrion.

Because he let him go.  He didn't capture him. Putting aside Joffrey's murder, he is the hand of the queen who is in open warfare against them.  Capturing him would help, just a bit, in that campaign.  Not knock out a dragon help, but a help all the same. 

[Lemuria]

Yay for Jon and Drogon!  "Hey, Mom, I think he's family!"  I love that Jon, who's faced WW and the Night King, really looked nervous--and yet, instead of just standing there and hoping he didn't get eaten, he took his glove off and petted Drogon.  (There was a post upthread suggesting it was similar to Tyrion with Rhaegal and Viseryion but I think that Tyrion scene was more about showing us that dragons could understand what Tyrion was doing and were willing to let him.  I don't recall--and I admit I could be wrong--his ever petting them.)

Quote

In no European monarchy succession (which this story is based on) can the king's nephew claim succession right to the throne over any of his children, male or female. 

As others have noted, Jon is Aerys' grandson.  And there are instances when the son of the heir takes the throne ahead of his uncles, if the heir dies before his father.  The one that comes to mind first is in England:  Edward the III's eldest son, Edward the Black Prince (so named for the color of the armor he wore), predeceased his father.  The throne went to his son, Richard (the II), even though Edward the III had four other adult sons.  

I find it interesting that the annulment was in Dorne.  You would think that Doran might object.  I'm wondering if one of the reasons for the annulment was because Aerys was holding her as a hostage--it seems Rhaegar was treating with some of the lords with an eye toward deposing his increasingly-insane father--and if the marriage was annulled, it might convince Aerys that Rhaegar didn't care about her and Aerys might let her go.  (I'm also wondering if the marriage had been more of a political alliance than a love match and perhaps neither of them was happy.)

Quote

That wight hunt is not a smart idea

What's the better idea?  Even in the North, first on the line, they're complaining about Jon's absence though he's at Dragonstone to get what they need to fight the WW.  The maesters will not take a stand on whether or not the WW exist or urge Southern houses to send troops to the battle.  If Cersei is not convinced, she could harry their people and make it difficult to concentrate on the war on the North.

This is like the complaints that Jon should not have gone to Dragonstone.  Except that no one else would have had a chance of convincing Dany, as no one else had even seen, much less fought, the WW.  (I believe I read a post that said that Jon should have brought a member of the NW with him.   He did.  He brought the former Lord Commander of the NW.)

Same thing here, IMO:  they are out of options.  They have to convince everyone that the North is where the real war is starting.  

[SimoneS]

4 minutes ago, Paradigm14 said:

Not buying it. Also wouldn't fit the story.

I agree with the "wouldn't fit the story" part. Clearly, the story is setting up Dany and Jon to have competing claims to the Iron Throne.

[KaleyFirefly]

1 hour ago, Growsonwalls said:

 I loved when Jon told her that he didn't need her permission to do anything. 

 

That was so awesome! I loved Jon even more in that moment. And I think Dany respected him for that. She likes him more than she is letting on. She didn't want him to leave so soon.

[Paradigm14]

2 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I agree with the "wouldn't fit the story" part. Clearly, the story is setting up Dany and Jon to have competing claims to the Iron Throne.

There's no competition. If Dany finds out, you'll see her yield.

[mac123x]

Male-preference primogeniture says that Jon is the "rightful" king.  Eldest living son of the eldest son of the Mad King.

Proximity of blood says that Dany is the rightful queen.  She's the king's daughter, Jon is the king's grandson.

Most of the realm follows male-preference primogeniture, which is why Littlefinger was sort of right calling Bran "Lord Stark".  Technically, Bran is ahead of his sisters even though they are older than him.  He doesn't want it though, so Sansa stays Lady of WInterfell.  Dorne does absolute primogeniture, so eldest child (Arianne) inherits ahead of her brothers.

 

Based on the stuff going on in World of Ice and Fire, the Targs seem to follow whatever they want.  Mostly male-preference primogeniture, but various kings have basically chosen who their heir is regardless of which system applied.  At one point, Aerys threatened to disinherit Rhaegar and leave the throne to toddler-Viserys.

 

Dany really wins and question of "who is the rightful ruler" because of dragons.

3 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

Also, Gendry’s new hairdo sucks.

I totally agree.  Joe Dempsey is a FINE looking man, but that buzz cut isn't doing him any favors.

 

3 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

find it interesting that the annulment was in Dorne.  You would think that Doran might object.

He might not have known about it.  Rhaegar's new marriage probably took place in secret at the Tower of Joy.