S02.E13: Echo

[maraleia]

 

No one is safe as Philip and Elizabeth evacuate their children while trying to complete the mission. Stan holds Nina's future in his hands.

 

[AimingforYoko]

So the Season 3 arc is set, the battle over Paige. Will this split our dynamic duo?

[crgirl412]

I'm rewatching to get some of my questions answered!  Can't wait for S3!!! 

[Tara Ariano]

Here's my post on the episode!

[soapfaninnc]

I can't stand Elizabeth. Truly. I cannot relate to someone so rabid about her cause that she'd throw her own children over to it. Maybe cause I was raised by one like that. I dunno.

 

Stan sucks - not for not betraying his country but for blackmailing Nina into spying for him, screwing her, promising her he'd keep her safe and then leaving her hanging. Perhaps literally.  And acting like he couldn't understand why his wife is moving in with someone else and his son doesn't want to have anything to do with him. 

 

Mind blown about Kate and the kid. Did not see that coming.  Poor Phillip. 

 

I think the Pastor is from the center. That's why he didn't flinch when Phillip cornered him in the church office that night. 

[saffronrice]

I thought it was hilarious that in Stan's dream, Martha was there stealing files from the mail robot and putting them in her bag.

Edited May 22, 2014 by saffronrice

[Catherinewriter]

I'm confused about the Stan scenes. He photographed a screen or two and that was supposed to be Echo? And then he dropped it off? So why didn't he wait for Nina? Just chickened out?

Stan, you suck.

Wow, Jared really came alive just as he was about to die, didn't he?

Incredible show.

[Tara Ariano]

I'm confused about the Stan scenes. He photographed a screen or two and that was supposed to be Echo? And then he dropped it off? So why didn't he wait for Nina? Just chickened out?

 

 

I think he didn't drop it off; he left that note instead. The apology was because he knew he was dooming her.

[Slacker]

I'm confused about the Stan scenes. He photographed a screen or two and that was supposed to be Echo? And then he dropped it off? So why didn't he wait for Nina? Just chickened out?

Stan, you suck.

The show's got you rooting for the bad guys. ;) Like Tara said, he didn't drop of the code, instead leaving the message for Nina. He apparently was going to do it initially but eventually came to his senses. 

 

I assume that's the last we'll see of Nina, which is a shame. Annet Mahendru was amazing in the role. Conversely, hopefully we've seen the last of Mrs. Beeman. Her scenes were always the least interesting part of the show for me. 

 

Paige is a great character and the possibility of wrapping her up in everything at the age of 13 is fascinating. Can't wait until next season. 

[dramachick]

Great episode!  I did not see it coming that Jared killed his own parents... and especially because they didn't want him to be a spy!  Kate must have really rocked his world to turn him against his parents so thoroughly that he murdered them.  Stupid Kate.  Stupid KGB. 

 

And I concur:  Stan sucks.

The show's got you rooting for the bad guys. ;) Like Tara said, he didn't drop of the code, instead leaving the message for Nina. He apparently was going to do it initially but eventually came to his senses. 

 

I assume that's the last we'll see of Nina, which is a shame. Annet Mahendru was amazing in the role. Conversely, hopefully we've seen the last of Mrs. Beeman. Her scenes were always the least interesting part of the show for me. 

 

Stan instigated the entire miserable mess that Nina's in because he thought he was a big and tough FBI agent that could f*** and kill anybody he wanted while treating his family like they were props.  He's a person of weak character, and I don't think things are going to end well for him.

Edited May 22, 2014 by sukeyna

[TravisNelson76]

Martha survived the season!  With her Chekhov-ian gun still in play!  I predict now that Season Three will some some birth control hijinks from Miss Martha.  

[dramachick]

Man, what a great season finale!

 

Jared was fucking nuts. Poor Henry still wanting his family to be perfectly normal so he easily believes it all.

I am not pleased with Elizabeth and her crazy ass fanatical "Mother Russia is the best" attitude. Phillip is right, Paige would never be able to handle it.

 

Jared must have went straight up berserk when his dad told him that he couldn't see Kate anymore.  SMH.  Never underestimate the power of the p***y.  Stan almost succumbed, but his instinct for self-preservation kicked in.

[90PercentGravity]

I have no idea who shot Larrick four times in the chest while he laid against the trunk? Jared was bleeding out on the ground. Elizabeth was handcuffed. Phillip was handcuffed. Other lady was dead. Where did those bullets come from?

 

That was a lot of monologuing for a guy bleeding through a fatal neck wound, likely aspirating blood into his lungs. Also, spending all of that time setting up the mystery just to have it all laid out so neatly in a few bits of dialogue was disappointing.

 

Still in for next season.

[Bannon]

I nearly gave up on this show after last season's finale, which I found incredibly lame, and I'm glad I didn't. The development of the potential recruitment of Paige is just brilliant, and they have a teenage actor who can pull it off. Elizabeth and Stan are two very well drawn characters with huge flaws, and Phillip is the moral center, in a very, very, immoral job,  being torn apart. This has the potential to be as well thought out, start to finish, as Breaking Bad.

 

I thought they might portray Stan as a complete idiot, which is a common failing in television and movies (the moronic FBI being unable to execute a simple stakeout and subsequent car chase is why I hated last season's finale), so I'm glad they took the path they did, but I do think they need to write him as being bit more sharp than what they have shown so far. Gaad is an interesting character played by a good actor, so I'd like him to get more scenes. The character of Elizabeth could end up being an all-time great in televised fiction, if they don't misstep.

[magdalene]

Maybe Oleg can help Nina somehow? I have a hard time believing this is the end for Nina.

 

As for Stan, what a disgusting douche-bag. I despise him - not for choosing his country at the end but for the way he conducted himself all along with regards to Nina and the way he fucked her and fucked her over.

[Bannon]

I'm pretty sure Phillip was able to turn his body, grab the weapon that was stuck in the belt in the small of Larrick's  back, and squeeze off some rounds into Larrick's back, bullets exiting through the chest.

[dr pepper]

A few people had previously said that Jared killed his family. I thought that was absurd. Now I salute their astuteness and award them the Hero of Socialist TV Watching Medal, which comes with the privilege of cutting in line for nachos.

 

Oh, I made an off hand remark that Jared was being evaluated for his potential as a natural spy. It was just a joke, OK? Sheesh!

[millennium]

I thought this season took an overly circuitous route to get to the events of Echo.   It never occurred to me that Jared had killed his family, so that plotline seemed to come out of the blue, almost like an afterthought -- an impression enhanced by all that exposition flowing out of Jared's mouth faster than the blood pumping out his neck.

 

In terms of plot and action, the season was just "meh."   Nice work by Matthew Rhys and Keri Russell though -- and Martha too.   I'd like to see more John Boy next season.

 

Oh, and "Twilight Zone" -- just too effing cool!

[fauxphysician]

When Elizabeth was seen staring off into the distance, mulling over Paige's future, I so wanted her to opt to let the girl go to Church Camp and be a counselor-in-training (as a means of channeling her altruism in a less harmful way), but being the zealot that she is, I knew that she couldn't choose that option. I think ,too, that Elizabeth really wants to be able to share her 'life' with Paige--at long last-- just as she thought that she was able to do with Jared ("...this is how I really look..."). Love this Show, and cannot wait for Season 3 !!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I didn't see any of that Jared stuff coming, so good job on that, show.

[NitneLiun]

Nina will be back. I read an interview with the showrunners, who made it clear that her story is not over.

 

Good news for you Annet Mahendru fans.

[attica]

I like and approve of the Jared plot-twist, but having it all revealed while he's bleeding from a neck wound is not a very artful way to achieve it, imo. As I said in my comment to Tara's post, that's an awful lot of plot to pump when you're bleeding out.

 

How tantalizing to imagine the million different ways the Centre could use to get to Paige! Whee! Can.not.wait.

 

Not only was the 'If she says one more thing about non-violent resistance, I'm going to punch her in the face' the line of the ep, MR's delivery of it slayed. Just the right mixture of weary irritation, contempt, and amusement at his own joke.

[mattie0808]

Sincere kudos to everyone who called Jared as the family's killer! What a psycho.

 

Having said that, I still think the whole idea of it is...off. I feel like the writers hadn't decided on that at the beginning of the season when Emmett and Leanne were killed and this was sort of a last-minute (or, at least, late) resolution. I'm really, REALLY surprised that E/L were happily talking like everything was fine when they were having beers with P/E in the season premiere. Even if they didn't know that their son was a complete, total psychopath capable of shooting them and his sister in the head, or didn't know that Kate was honey-trapping Jared behind their back (EW!), they had already been approached by the Center to recruit their son and said no. Paige is only a little bit younger than Jared. They really wouldn't even give P/E the heads up on that? Leanne, who trusted Elizabeth to deliver her letter to her son after she died? Leanne, who Elizabeth trusted enough to confide in about her marriage (she was updating Leanne that things between her and Phillip were better in the beer-drinking scene) and about her complete non-desire to have children (in the 60s flashbacks)? They just happily talk about college and cheerleading and such and send Claudia's regards?

 

And though TV always plays fast and loose with the passage of time, I thought in the series premiere that Phillip and Elizabeth headed to the hotel with E/L were staying right after Phillip did the exchange at the fair. Elizabeth was watching it happen, Phillip came over to her, she asked, "What the hell was that?" he said he would tell her later, let's go. Elizabeth gave Paige and Henry money for rides and games and they left. Got to the hotel, found them all dead. So what happened was after the two families passed each other at the fair, looking happy, and right after the drop, E/L and their kids hightail it back to the hotel in time for them to have a MASSIVE fight with Jared, during which they apparently learn for the first time (?) that their son has been recruited behind their back and has been honey-trapped into obsessive craziness. They have time for that discussion, to then fight about them not wanting Jared to be a spy, for him to kill all of them with neck and head shots (he must have been getting some top-notch weapons training from Kate), for him to get changed and go down to the pool as calm and normal as could be before P and E got there? And no one in the hotel heard arguing coming from that room or anything else they could have told the cops after the bodies were discovered (I assume the gun had a silencer)?

 

The only good thing about the neck-wound exposition scene (which was handled rather clunkily) was Phillip's ABSOLUTELY HORRIFIED FACE throughout/ Man, MR is just an amazing actor.

 

I love Elizabeth and the other non-Phillip Russians. So, you now have children of Illegals old enough to start recruiting. Great! But the first time you try it, the parents completely reject the idea out of hand, and the kid goes TOTALLY OFF HIS ROCKER and murders two of your top agents (in a way that would have instantly shown them to be spies if Phillip hadn't been able to at least quickly clean the room). But hey, let's keep at it, these American kids will totally work out eventually! I don't quite understand Elizabeth. Not that I think it's out of character for her to find the idea of her children following in her ideological footsteps appealing, that makes sense. But she literally JUST saw how completely screwed up (that's not even the phrase for it!) Jared was from being recruited. She JUST found out that her good friends were murdered by their own son because of the Center. She doesn't care about that at all? Really? She'd be okay with the equivalent happening to Paige? If that pastor dude was like Kate and was seducing Paige to get her loyalty? (I know that's not off-the-table as an actual option, but how can Elizabeth be all right with that as an idea?) She's still a true-blue believer, of course, but she's also seen since her shooting the toll this work takes on Phillip, and on her ("You think it's easy for me, what I do?"). Miss "I was recruited at 16 and had never kissed a boy" now wants to work on Paige when she's even younger than that? So because Paige is "looking for something" it's suddenly good to put her into this life? Ugh. I really hope Phillip has the strength to take a stand against Elizabeth on this.

 

Oh, and good for Stan not going through with it. He's still a complete mess and a jerk, but I didn't think it made sense for him to actually betray his country at that level. Poor Nina. I still think Oleg has a trick up his sleeve to help her though. We haven't seen the last of her.

 

Stan's dream-Martha was just WEIRD. I assume it's because she's been talking/complaining so much about the way files are left around that he's subconsciously put together that she's possibly taking them. I assume Phillip will eventually kill her with that gun, which will be horrifying on a million levels...

 

I don't think of Larrick as a bad guy, honestly. He was blackmailed into becoming a traitor, he was horrified that his actions got his fellow soldiers killed, took revenge by killing three Soviet operatives (phone guy, Kate, and cabin woman), and was willing to turn himself in as a traitor to expose Phillip and Elizabeth. He didn't kill Emmett and Leanne (and honestly, I wouldn't have had a problem with him if he had, though I would have had a problem with killing the daughter) and wasn't going to kill Jared. Wonder who the big bad will be next season, aside from kid-training Mother Russia.

 

Great season all-in-all, even if I thought the reveal on the killer was a misstep. I'm all-in for Season 3!

 

 

[maraleia]

@mattie0808 If you read any one of the interviews that the show creators did that were posted last night they said that Jared as the killer was planned from the start of the season. They told every director who worked on the show from the beginning that Jared killed his family and told the actor about 2/3 of the way into shooting the season's episodes so he could switch how he played the scenes.

I loved the finale and the way that everything built up to the moments we saw in last night's episode. BTW, Holly Taylor and Annet Mahendru are prolific tweeters during the show and have interesting things to say so I would recommend following them if you are on twitter.

[Dagny]

They have time for that discussion, to then fight about them not wanting Jared to be a spy, for him to kill all of them with neck and head shots (he must have been getting some top-notch weapons training from Kate), for him to get changed and go down to the pool as calm and normal as could be before P and E got there? And no one in the hotel heard arguing coming from that room or anything else they could have told the cops after the bodies were discovered (I assume the gun had a silencer)?

 

There was a reason why the runners went with The Twilight Zone. Lots of stuff happening really fast. Through the magic of reading Cracked, silencers don't make the gun go pffft. You still have the explosion of the gunpowder. It will still go bang. It just reduces the sound a bit. Shooting that many people should have made anybody around that room sit up and notice.

 

Elizabeth has always been the true believer, but I don't see Paige as the strong type.

[Curious5]

I do enjoy the show and have a possible twist about Stan. Everyone presumes that the marriage failure was all Stan's doing but I'm being to doubt that. If Stan had a decent relationship with his wife (Susan Misner) he might not have strayed. If I remember from the fist year all she was doing is asking questions of Stan everytime he came into the kitchen or bedroom. So the marriage was weak.

Then I thought of Elizabeth and how cold she was through the first season and it was only after her near death experience that she warmed up to Philip after years of marriage. Now stay with me.... Could Stan's wife be another deep cover KGB agent? Think of all the questions and how she constantly pushed for info in the first year. Go back to the final episode this season and how she was so "preceptive" when Stan is in the kitchen presumably debating betraying his country. Why would she still be there when she was suppose to move in with her boyfriend? Why would she be asking him again about what was bothering him? Was she trying to find out if he was going to go through with the betrayal?

I have no time for the Nina character. She will sleep with anyone at anytime for what she wants and she has proven that.

[Catherinewriter]

Bannon, maybe, but that's a very skilled operative to be able to shoot someone four times while handcuffed. I wondered too, where the shots had come from.

What is the "Twilight Zone" reference about? Confused.

I'm not sure Jared was a sociopath, but simply a very disturbed lad whose family secrets got to him, plus the attraction of a beautiful woman who focused on him. His final scene explains why he was so affectless the rest of the time - he was trying to prevent Elizabeth and whomever else was interrogating him from seeing what he was hiding.

More Claudia. Always more Claudia!

[SunnyBeBe]

I just knew it. There were others here too that thought Jared was responsible.  I was torn between Jared doing it because he was KGB and felt his family had been turned and had to be killed or that Jared was working with Larrick and killed his parents because he did not support their cause.  Still, I have trouble envisioning Jared in that motel room and being able to get the weapon, shoot his mom and dad who are very experienced trained agents, plus his sister and no one yelled or caused a commotion.  Hmmmm.....Okay... I guess we have to accept it.

 

I wish they had allowed Stan to show more of a progression towards his decision.  I didn't think he seemed that torn up about it.  A that silly dream...why? How would that cause him to betray Nina?  I wonder if the full and final story is in on Nina.  She's such a delicious character to be executed.  Perhaps Oleg could pull some strings for her back home OR perhaps that show of Nina leaving was for Stan's benefit and Nina will be used in a different way later on.  I can imagine she would be able to seriously bring Stan down since she knows he betrayed her and would hold nothing for him at this point.  

 

I certainly do think that the Paster is KGB and that the girl who befriended Page on the bus that day and invited her to the church is also KGB.  So, I guess once that's revealed, Page will go to the summer camp, only it's probably not really the Christian one, but one designed for Soviet youth spies.

 

I laughed so hard when Page was totally confused and annoyed with the packing in the middle of the night to go to a cheap hotel in NY and stay for one night!  Her bewilderment and disgust was so funny! Loved that part.

Edited May 22, 2014 by SunnyBeBe

[sistermagpie]

So because Paige is "looking for something" it's suddenly good to put her into this life? Ugh. I really hope Phillip has the strength to take a stand against Elizabeth on this.

 

 

I think he absolutely is--this is his "cause"--keeping his kids free of this stuff. We never got to hear the end of his story of how he got the milk home by facing down a gang of teenagers when he was 9, but he'll do it with Paige too!

 

I certainly do think that the Paster is KGB and that the girl who befriended Page on the bus that day and invited her to the church is also KGB.  So, I guess once that's revealed, Page will go to the summer camp, only it's probably not really the Christian one, but one designed for Soviet youth spies.

 

 

Could Stan's wife be another deep cover KGB agent?

 

 

Both of these projects would be a complete waste of time and money for the KGB. In the first they're recruiting kids to be religious, which is against their philosophy, just so they can then recruit them for their actual philosophy which is anti-Jesus? And nobody knows it? And they're still doing mission trips to convert others? I think the pastor is an actual pastor recruiting kids for his church. If it looks like KGB recruitment it's because recruitment in general looks kind of sinister.

 

Stan's wife has spent two decades married to a guy with nothing to do with espionage and living in the midwest somewhere (I think?) and now she's leaving him. In the kitchen scene she was just being his wife. She could tell something was bothering him because it was obvious. Nothing she's done is particularly helpful to the Soviet cause but it all makes sense as a woman who's what she appears to be.

[Curious5]

Yes - more Claudia. I was not aware of Margo Martindale until we watched the Justified series where she won the outstanding supporting actress as Mags Bennett.

The Christian twist in the story line is quite interesting - especially with Paige's expression of wanting to believe in something bigger then herself. It is a great reminder of why the Soviet Union was so against religion. The only thing the State wanted anyone to believe is the Soviet Union was the only thing more important than the individual.

I keep thinking of Philip's facial expression as he leaves the church after his confrontation with the "pastor." It was full of hate and reminded me of a spiritual battle going on. If Paige's budding belief in Christianity comes head to head against Elizabeth's Mother Russia, it will be a stormy third season.

[thewhiteowl]

Considering the current adversarial relationship between Paige and her parents, I can't imagine why they would think they could turn her. Seems unlikely. She doesn't trust them. An outsider would have a better shot at it. Too bad the KGB compartmentalized information to the extreme because if Phil and Liz knew that it was always the plan to use the children, they could have started the process when she still trusted them.

Stan decided to forego love for country, good for him. Bad for Nina but she's wily, she will probably be pregnant. Then Oleg and Stan both have a reason to save her.

 

[attica]

What is the "Twilight Zone" reference about? Confused.

 

The song on the soundtrack, by Golden Earring.

 

I'm warming up to the idea of Paige growing up to be La Femme Nikita. 

[SimoneS]

I cannot believe that Nina is gone for good. She is too wonderful to lose. Maybe Stan changes his mind at the last minute. I felt for Oleg and Nina. I could not stand him at the beginning, but now I really like him. Watching Oleg fighting not to cry as he watched Nina leave and her tearful silent goodbye was heartbreaking. I hope they have a happy ending somehow.

 

I am not surprised that Elizabeth would consider letting Paige join the KGB. Phillip who is a capitalist at heart and would leave the KGB in a heartbeat if he could convince Elizabeth, but she is a true believer. I will never forget the wistfulness in her voice when she told the Cuban agent that their revolution was beautiful. Whatever doubts Elizabeth has they are fleeting and she shrugs them off so she could be persuaded by Claudia's argument that Paige joining the KGB was for the cause. Phillip . I also think that the girl who befriended Paige and the pastor are KGB. I think that the KGB would be better off waiting for Henry.

 

I hope that Margo Martindale comes back for more guest stints. She is such a talented actress. I miss Claudia.

Edited May 22, 2014 by SimoneS

[picklesprite]

 

I think the Pastor is from the center. That's why he didn't flinch when Phillip cornered him in the church office that night. 

 

I could totally buy this, and here's why (in addition to your point about the pastor's non-flinching): If the KGB is going to come on to a young kid, they're proabably not going to start by talking about Russia, or spy parents, or anything anywhere near that foreign and threatening. They're going to start in a nice, friendly church, and that's the first step. Next step--from the church they move into civil action, into causes, and movements. Third step, perhaps--the pastor "becomes" disillusioned with the USA "because" of being arrested, etc. He "begins" to admire Russia, socialism, etc. Paige moves sympathetically along with each step, until: gottcha. Although, at some point, I think she's going to be too smart for him. Also--I have thought for a couple of episodes now that the "pastor" is sexually coming on to Paige with those sympathetic eyes. I think she's falling for him, as Jarred fell for Kate. All of that--the attention of a mature man or woman, the budding sexuality of the teenager, the idealism, the "cause". . .it could happen.

 

edited to add: and in the seduction of a child, turning her against her parents would help, too. Seems to me the "friend," the "pastor," and the KGB are right on schedule with their plans for Paige.

 

We may not have seen the last of Stan's efforts on Nina's behalf, either.

 

There were a couple of instants when Oleg had a very slight smirk, as if he had either been trapping Nina all along, or he had something planned to save her, or. . .who knows? It's Oleg! He could be up to anything, with or without the connivance of Arkady.

 

And I'm relieved to find out that it was actually true that when Jarred hurled himself, screaming, into the hotel hallway, he was a good actor playing a boy who was a bad actor, lol. I thought that scene rang false, and I'm glad to know for sure they planned it that way.

 

Wow, what a great series. Love it love it.

Edited May 22, 2014 by picklesprite

[5cents-worth]

I was surprised by the Jared revelation, and I didn't totally buy it for all the reasons mentioned already.  Meanwhile, the last time we saw Claudia, didn't she put herself into this by admitting she had blabbed her secret spy beeswax to her lover?  And didn't she ask Elizabeth to investigate her?  That was a pretty big plot thread that was never mentioned again by anyone.

 

 

I don't quite understand Elizabeth. Not that I think it's out of character for her to find the idea of her children following in her ideological footsteps appealing, that makes sense. But she literally JUST saw how completely screwed up (that's not even the phrase for it!) Jared was from being recruited. She JUST found out that her good friends were murdered by their own son because of the Center. She doesn't care about that at all? Really? She'd be okay with the equivalent happening to Paige? 

 

It's possible that she is more frightened by saying no to the Center, and having them go behind her back and recruit Paige anyway (and we see how well that turned out for Jared.) If she and Phillip agree to go along with it, they have more control over the situation - perhaps they can even shape things so the risk is minimized.  I mean, it's a long road from age 14 to the FBI or CIA; lots of things can happen along the way.

[SunnyBeBe]

There are good points both pro and con that the Pastor is KGB, but think about it. What better cover for a teen soviet spy than being a devout, Christian girl?

 

Was it confirmed the guy who got shot died?  Where was he running from? Wasn't it a building with the Stealth plane formula? That must have been a different building that where Stan was looking at the Echo secrets, right?

Edited May 22, 2014 by SunnyBeBe

[90PercentGravity]

They said on the radio he was "code grey" (I think) and they needed a coroner instead of an ambulance. Of course, I suppose it is possible that maybe the FBI was watching him and put that message out to fool the KGB and he is still alive somewhere.

[ahpny]

They certainly surprised me with Jared’s story, but as intriguing and horrifying as that was, several parts don’t work well. Why would second generation illegals be so squeaky clean if their parents are admittedly anything but? Background checks look at parents. Wouldn’t “normal” Americans be easier and better? Wouldn’t second generation illegals be inherently compromised in terms of loyalty by being lied to their entire lives (up to being told who they erally are) or at least so screwed up that their work would be unreliable? See Jared.

Also, why would Arkady taunt Stan by warning him not to profess “I love you” so much to Nina? Didn’t that needlessly betray that Nina was talking to them? Maybe Stan thought they were torturing her, but couldn’t he also have, belatedly, begun to suspect he was being played? He clearly had intent to turn over Echo and came close to doing so. Could that have changed his mind?

I’ve always seen a lot of parallels between spies and mobsters, but at least with mobsters, the kids are off limits.  Not so much with the spies apparently.

[SilvaVocat]

I think Paige gave her parents the perfect opening to start turning her. Start with sitting her down one night after Henry is in bed and telling her that they're communists. They've kept it a secret from her because in the current political climate "communist" is a very dangerous thing to be, but now that she's taking an interest in the world, they want to show her that they share her values. Tell her communism is all about peace, and helping other and blah blah blah. Skip the atheism, as least for now. Once she's on board with that, slowly begin to introduce the idea that maybe Soviet Russia isn't the devil. Once that's okay, then you tell her you grew up there. Talk about what it was like. (Glossing over the horror, telling only what makes it look good.) Talk about how capitalism is false freedom, but communism is true freedom. Before she knows it, she'll think infiltrating the CIA was her own idea.

[Milaxx]

Such a great episode! Love every bit. I don't think the pastor is KGB. I think both he and in a way, Stan are supposed to parallel Elizabeth's dedication to the cause. The pastor is a dedicated to his faith as Elizabeth is to the Soviet Union. Stan is more dedicated to the USA and being an agent than he is to his family and even ultimately to Nina who he claimed to love. 

 

I wonder even if they did decide to tell Paige who she is would she agree to being part of the Second generation Illegals. I agree with the poster up thread. Adolescence is too late to indoctrinate. Most teens are too busy rebelling against their parents to go along. Paige certainly is. Telling her who she really is would only piss her off more. It could set up a potential Jared situation where she's angry because she feels her entire life has been a lie. I think Elizabeth longs for closeness with Paige that she thinks she could have if they both shared a dedication to the Soviet Union.

 

I also don't think Stan's wife is KGB. Stan has spent the majority of their marriage going deep under cover. Often for months at a time. IIRC when they moved across the street from the Jennings, he had been deep under cover with a biker gang for several years. Even living together couldn't undo the damage that those frequent estrangements had done on their marriage. It's no wonder that Stan now living with them but still being distant due to the job & his affair with Niina was the final straw for her.

 

I'm going to have to find time this weekend to rewatch this season. I'm sure there were small hints that Jared was an agent that were easy to overlook. Kudos to the poster who suspected him all along.

[SunnyBeBe]

I'm having a difficult time accepting that a privileged child, brought up in America, would have the same level of commitment and degree of long suffering that a child from the school of hard knocks would have.  Philip and Elizabeth have struggled to survive. They have endured so much to just be alive.  How could Page possibly ever know the depth of their inner strength?  

[picklesprite]

  How could Page possibly ever know the depth of their inner strength?  

 

I think the answer to that is, maybe she can't, and maybe the Center has erred in thinking any of these children could do that. Although, only half-facetiously, I say, who can tell about Henry? He could be an Oleg in the making. Just kidding, maybe.

[mattie0808]

If you read any one of the interviews that the show creators did that were posted last night they said that Jared as the killer was planned from the start of the season.

 

Understood, it just still comes across as somewhat haphazard or something that didn't quite get all the foundation and attention to detail that might have helped. That they tried to do all that is admirable, but I personally wouldn't say they exactly succeeded.

 

I think he absolutely is--this is his "cause"--keeping his kids free of this stuff.

 

Here's hoping. I'm still trying to wrap my head around Elizabeth wanting to expose Paige to all of this.

 

Too bad the KGB compartmentalized information to the extreme because if Phil and Liz knew that it was always the plan to use the children, they could have started the process when she still trusted them.

 

No kidding! At whatever point they thought this was a good idea, they should have instructed the Illegals to begin gently guiding their children toward similar ideological beliefs, as far as they could without risking their covers. That would have been an important start. And someone like Elizabeth would have been thrilled -- here's her chance, now with the backing of orders, to at least make socialist atheists out of her kids. The let's-spring-this-whole-thing-on-them-as-teenagers-and-assume-they'll-somehow-think-it's-awesome plan is pretty dumb. Especially since everyone involved with the first go-round of it is now dead.

 

It's possible that she is more frightened by saying no to the Center, and having them go behind her back and recruit Paige anyway (and we see how well that turned out for Jared.) If she and Phillip agree to go along with it, they have more control over the situation

 

She really better start framing her thinking along these lines to Phillip. I'm not saying it would work -- Phillip seems to want NO PART of any of this for either kid, but at least if Elizabeth hints that she's actually trying to act in Paige's best overall interest, Phillip might not just stare at her like she's some crazy monster. I actually don't think Elizabeth is thinking that way at all, personally. I think she wants control, but only because this is her chance to finally mold her spoiled American child in her own image, not because she thinks it'll be worse all around if they defy the Center. I see the appeal to Elizabeth in getting her kids on her side. I'm amazed she's so blinded by that thought after everything that just happened. I'm also amazed that she doesn't want a better life for her kids. I don't mean living in the US versus Russia, but that she would prefer that her own work and sacrifices lead to her children living in a communist paradise some day, not that her own daughter will run around honey-trapping men, sacrificing everything, having her life dictated by others, etc. Bah!

 

Also, why would Arkady taunt Stan by warning him not to profess “I love you” so much to Nina? Didn’t that needlessly betray that Nina was talking to them?

 

Seriously! That line alone makes me ready to jump on the "Arkady is STILL running game" bandwagon.

 

Bad for Nina but she's wily, she will probably be pregnant. Then Oleg and Stan both have a reason to save her.

 

That's some good thinking right here. Stan better not think he's done with those Russians yet!

 

 

[sistermagpie]

Considering the current adversarial relationship between Paige and her parents, I can't imagine why they would think they could turn her. Seems unlikely. She doesn't trust them. An outsider would have a better shot at it. Too bad the KGB compartmentalized information to the extreme because if Phil and Liz knew that it was always the plan to use the children, they could have started the process when she still trusted them.

 

She doesn't trust them because she thinks they're lying. If they tell her how they've been lying the dynamic would change.

 

Phillip who is a capitalist at heart and would leave the KGB in a heartbeat if he could convince Elizabeth, but she is a true believer.

 

 

I don't think Philip is a capitalist at heart at all. He's devoted his life to the idea that capitalist is not a fair system. Him being willing to enjoy nice things when he can in no way suggests that he doesn't believe in socialism. If he had to choose between owning the TransAm and someone else not having a car at all he'd want them both to have cheaper cars.

 

I could totally buy this, and here's why (in addition to your point about the pastor's non-flinching): If the KGB is going to come on to a young kid, they're proabably not going to start by talking about Russia, or spy parents, or anything anywhere near that foreign and threatening. They're going to start in a nice, friendly church, and that's the first step. Next step--from the church they move into civil action, into causes, and movements. Third step, perhaps--the pastor "becomes" disillusioned with the USA "because" of being arrested, etc.

 

 

You're suggesting that the KGB has a whole program set up to recruit kids to an idea in conflict with Soviet Socialism in order to convert them to Soviet Socialism. They're not just "not talking about Russia" they're converting kids to Christianity which is a totally different thing in conflict with the Soviet ideal. There is no "nice, friendly church" in the worldview. And you don't need a church to move anyone into civil actions. The pastor's probably spent years preaching Christianity every Sunday and we know he's making missionary trips to convert other people. He's converted possibly hundreds of people away from the Soviet cause in order to recruit...Paige? I think he didn't flinch from Philip because a) Like Paige herself he lives in a bubble of security as an American so he always feels safe and b) he has faith that God will protect him and probably thought Philip was a soul Jesus had sent him to save. There's nothing very OOC in his behavior for a Christian pastor.

[dramachick]

I have no time for the Nina character. She will sleep with anyone at anytime for what she wants and she has proven that.

 

The exact same thing could be said of Stan.  Or Phillip.  Or Amador.  Oh, silly me.  They're all men.

 

Nina has had only one non-coercive sexual relationship, and that was with Oleg.

 

I've come to the conclusion that Elizabeth isn't much of a critical thinker, unlike Phillip.  She should be extremely wary now that it's clear that Kate and the Center were ultimately responsible for the deaths of Leanne and Emmet as a result of their attempted recruitment of Jared.  It was a monumentally stupid idea and reveals a startling level of incompetence of those at the top.  I understand that Elizabeth has to believe that she's done all that she's done in service to a cause greater than herself otherwise she couldn't live with herself, but to want to impose that kind of life on her daughter as if it's a good thing is the height of delusion.

 

While Jared was giving his deathbed confession, I thought it was a good thing he was dying because Phillip looked like he could have strangled him.

[Dagny]

At whatever point they thought this was a good idea, they should have instructed the Illegals to begin gently guiding their children toward similar ideological beliefs, as far as they could without risking their covers. That would have been an important start. And someone like Elizabeth would have been thrilled -- here's her chance, now with the backing of orders, to at least make socialist atheists out of her kids.

 

I thought P&E have been gently guiding their kids toward their belief system.  They don't encourage material things, they don't go to church, push the science, push the alternate view than what is on TV (esp Reagan), etc.

 

They also don't have the Intellivision. My parents didn't get us Intellivision, we had the Atari.  I was pretty go at Space Invaders. I sucked at Mission Control.

[SunnyBeBe]

I thought it was an odd comment that Philip made about Page last night.  He was talking to Elizabeth about how Page was driving him crazy talking about something and he said, If she keeps talking I feel like blowing her head off.  Did anyone catch that?  I thought it was very odd.  I realize he was kidding and exaggerating, but considering what Jared did, well, ..............

[Dagny]

I thought it was an odd comment that Philip made about Page last night.  He was talking to Elizabeth about how Page was driving him crazy talking about something and he said, If she keeps talking I feel like blowing her head off.

 

IIRC, it was if Paige kept talking any more about non-violence, he was going to punch her in the face.

[sistermagpie]

I thought it was an odd comment that Philip made about Page last night.  He was talking to Elizabeth about how Page was driving him crazy talking about something and he said, If she keeps talking I feel like blowing her head off.  Did anyone catch that?  I thought it was very odd.  I realize he was kidding and exaggerating, but considering what Jared did, well, ..............

 

 

 

I thought it was perfectly in keeping with the situation--and funny, especially with the delivery. He was just saying how tedious Paige was and he said "If she said one more thing about nonviolent resistance I was going to punch her in the face." He didn't say anything about blowing her head off. 

Edited May 23, 2014 by sistermagpie

[Helena Dax]

Wow, I'm impressed. I was surprised when they dealt with Larrick so soon, but it's easy to understand why after the last twist. And I agree that the KGB is making a mistake. It's so risky! Those second generation kids love their parents but they also love their country. Some of them will talk. And then what? 

 

I understand why someone like Elizabeth could accept the idea of her children becoming spies too. But I'm on Philip's side this time, maybe because I think that life would destroy Paige. Anyway, it'll be a great plot to watch.

 

Poor Nina! But I'm glad to know she's still on the show. She's so brave! And Stan, well, bertraying his country for Nina would have been another mistake even if Nina's feelings for him were real. And it's interesting to find out that some part of his mind knows what Martha's doing.

 

I don't get why Arkady would make that comment about saying "I love you" too much. It could only work against Nina.