S07.E03: The Queen's Justice

[Oscirus]

11 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

At this point I can't see what would move onscreen Jamie to break with her after he saw the sept drove Tommen out the window and she simply stepped over his corpse to put the crown on her head and kept on with business.  I've always felt it would happen, but I really wonder what is his breaking point this far down the road?

I simply cannot wrap my brain around the fact that the man who experienced his first real fatherly moment of joy bringing Myrcella home, only to have it ripped cruelly away from him moments later, could have shrugged off what happened with Tommen and Cersei's part in it. 

Because  he had nowhere else to go. His past actions are horrible,  his family name is mud. Where would he have gone at that point?

[iMonrey]

Quote

 And in this universe, finding out that they share a bloodline, but not too closely, won't be much of an obstacle. 

Not too closely? He's her nephew. That's a total Ick in my book. Now, I realize it's not an obstacle in the world of Westeros where Targaryens married brother to sister but I cannot escape my real-world sensibilities enough to be OK with someone being intimate with their own nephew. Even cousins gettin' busy gives me the wiggens. Bottom line, I'm not rooting for Dani and Jon to be a couple. I don't think it's cute or sexy or appropriate, I just think it's gross.

Quote

 I have noticed Cersei's servants have been wearing their hair short.  Given that it appears all her servants are wearing that style means to me they probably didn't have a choice. 

Hah! Good catch, I didn't even notice that but you're right.

[FnkyChkn34]

2 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Not too closely? He's her nephew. That's a total Ick in my book. Now, I realize it's not an obstacle in the world of Westeros where Targaryens married brother to sister but I cannot escape my real-world sensibilities enough to be OK with someone being intimate with their own nephew. Even cousins gettin' busy gives me the wiggens. Bottom line, I'm not rooting for Dani and Jon to be a couple. I don't think it's cute or sexy or appropriate, I just think it's gross.

I totally agree.  Not as bad as Cersei and Jaime, but really, they're not a comparison for anyone in the first place.

[Tikichick]

15 minutes ago, MrsR said:

About the teleportation issue, since this is the book thread I'll post it here:

 

Excerpt from 'A Storm of Swords':

"A Song of Ice and Fire is told through the eyes of characters who are sometimes hundreds or even thousands of miles apart from one another. Some chapters cover a day, some only an hour; others might span a fortnight, a month, half a year. With such a structure, the narrative cannot be strictly sequential; sometimes important things are happening simultaneously, a thousand leagues apart."

The structure and timing of books four and five nearly drove me around the bend.

[GrailKing]

17 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

Oh come on, Sansa is a skilled seamstress, which we've known from Season One when The Queen asked her to sew a dress, and Septa Mordane complimented her on her fine, fine stitching.  And then last season, she made a rockin' dress with a direwolf, and a cloak for Jon.  :)

As for the rest of Sansa's skills, I agree, she has none.  She's still a traditional female aristocrat, with skills to match, even though she fancies herself to be a player in the great game, and some sort of tactical genius on the battlefield.  I don't believe she'll be alive at the end of the series.  She's a pretty face and window dressing, not much more can be said about her.  She has no "agency", never has, never will.

OHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

She doesn't fancy herself a player, she never wanted to play the game, she's forced to; to survive.

Her Father's dead!

Her Mother's Dead!

Her oldest and youngest Brothers are dead!

Winterfell was in ruins and held by the Boltons

The Umbers betrayed them and gave Rickon to Ramsey: New Lord of the house

The Karstarks betrayed them: New Lady of the house

Tywin, Lysa, Maranda, Lord Bolton, Ramsey,Joffrey, Myrcella, Tommen, House Tyrell, Shae, House Martell, Ser Dontos, Balon Greyjoy.

Don't need brawn you need brains and know how and when to use them, Cersei and Tyrion along with LF knew what how and why of Sansa, she's playing the game as needed using skill sets she has courtesy and sex with skin no longer porcelain or ivory; but Steel!

I think when all is said and done, the last few pages will be either Bran,Sansa or Samwell Tarly completing the " Song of Ice and Fire " a story by Grand Maester Tarly as told by lady Sansa to her Nieces, Nephews and hopefully  Grand Children ( ok too sappy ).

Yeah Sam, and Sansa survives I think, Arya travels, Jon and Bran...if magic indeed needs to leave for humans to survive, not looking good for them or Danni.

[Pogojoco]

31 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Not too closely? He's her nephew. That's a total Ick in my book. Now, I realize it's not an obstacle in the world of Westeros where Targaryens married brother to sister but I cannot escape my real-world sensibilities enough to be OK with someone being intimate with their own nephew. Even cousins gettin' busy gives me the wiggens. Bottom line, I'm not rooting for Dani and Jon to be a couple. I don't think it's cute or sexy or appropriate, I just think it's gross.

Hah! Good catch, I didn't even notice that but you're right.

Also, Starks and the North in general don't do incest. It's known in Westeros as a weird Targaryen quirk and used to explain why some of them are crazy. It's not like it's something that just any of the major families do. Cersei and Jamie's incest is characterized as something worth killing over  (and pushing children out windows)  to keep quiet. It's also portrayed as a symbol of their deep dysfunction. Their sex scenes in this episode were creepy and weird, not sexy. It's corrupted and rotten. 

 

I don't quite know how the show is going to handle this whole thing. I hope Jon and Danaerys are allies, but not lovers. Her declarations in this episode about how she's the rightful heir and demanding he bend the knee, as well as bringing up the long history of Starks bending the knee to Targs makes me wonder how she will handle it if/when she discovers she's not the "last Dragon". I wonder if that is going to be a conflict between the two, which would probably be more interesting than a romance. When Melisandre talks about each of them having their "roles to play",  it's left open as to what that means. 

It would be a parallel sort of re-evaluation of what they were led to believe about themselves and how they define themselves:

Jon was raised thinking he is the bastard son of Ned Stark, that's his identity, how he's known in the realm- he's the bastard son that became Lord Commander, he's the bastard son crowned King in the North. But we know now he's actually the result of a Targ/Stark clandestine affair that started a war. He says in this episode he's "not a Stark" but what that means to him means something different than to the audience. The show winks at us when the dragon flies over as he says it. And it has a different context than when he said it in the very first episode to Bran when they found the direwolves. 

Dany, over the course of the series, has built up and collected her army under the power of her dragons and told herself that as the last Targaryen, she is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. It's hers by birthright. 

It would be like telling Tyrion, "By the way, you aren't a dwarf." 

[YaddaYadda]

5 minutes ago, Pogojoco said:

Cersei and Jamie's incest is characterized as something worth killing over  (and pushing children out windows)  to keep quiet. It's also portrayed as a symbol of their deep dysfunction. Their sex scenes in this episode were creepy and weird, not sexy. It's corrupted and rotten. 

I'm pretty sure the reason for that was because of the callback to Aerys who used to get turned on after he burned someone to death and then rape his wife. Cersei taunts Ellaria and gives Tyene the kiss of death and then rushes off to have sex with Jaime.

[spottedreptile]

6 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

The best move would have been for Dany to actually go and meet the lords one by one to get them to her side instead of perhaps thinking that she'd have their backing after what Cersei did.

Exactly. Dany is showing inexperience, for sure, but also she's not thinking straight. Why not present yourself as a better alternative to Cersei, and a reversal of the Targaeryans that came before you. Give the lords and the people a real choice, not just another cardboard cutout of a despotic ruler. 3 dragons and a tyrannical ancestry does not make a conquering force, and really, that's all she has at the moment. It was obvious the showrunners wanted to portray Jon as the reasonable elected ruler in contrast to Dany's arrogant histrionics, so it will be interesting to see what happens. 

[Blonde Gator]

1 hour ago, GrailKing said:

OHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

She doesn't fancy herself a player, she never wanted to play the game, she's forced to; to survive.

Her Father's dead!

Her Mother's Dead!

Her oldest and youngest Brothers are dead!

Winterfell was in ruins and held by the Boltons

The Umbers betrayed them and gave Rickon to Ramsey: New Lord of the house

The Karstarks betrayed them: New Lady of the house

Tywin, Lysa, Maranda, Lord Bolton, Ramsey,Joffrey, Myrcella, Tommen, House Tyrell, Shae, House Martell, Ser Dontos, Balon Greyjoy.

Don't need brawn you need brains and know how and when to use them, Cersei and Tyrion along with LF knew what how and why of Sansa, she's playing the game as needed using skill sets she has courtesy and sex with skin no longer porcelain or ivory; but Steel!

I think when all is said and done, the last few pages will be either Bran,Sansa or Samwell Tarly completing the " Song of Ice and Fire " a story by Grand Maester Tarly as told by lady Sansa to her Nieces, Nephews and hopefully  Grand Children ( ok too sappy ).

Yeah Sam, and Sansa survives I think, Arya travels, Jon and Bran...if magic indeed needs to leave for humans to survive, not looking good for them or Danni.

Apparently there's a "Sansa vs. [fill in the blank] thread to avoid further discussions about this never ending topic in Episode Threads.  I'll not be joining you, I've said all I have to say about player Sansa.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Blonde Gator

[Kathemy]

4 hours ago, Chairman Meow said:

Did anyone else see that scene with the dead horse?  I couldn't belive the way they were beating on it!

I am ready for Cersei to get her just deserts... I hate her so much that it has started affecting my feelings towards Lena Heady in other roles.. but even more than Cersei...I really want tosee Qyburn die a painful horrible death.  He just comes across to me as an utter sadist who really enjoys cooking up new instruments of torture...his glee in some of his scenes makes my skin crawl.  I felt very stabby towards him in this episode.

I'm the reverse, I've begun to love Lena's portrayal so much I don't want her to die. Then again I know she'd act the hell out of her death scene.

[Happy Harpy]

48 minutes ago, Pogojoco said:

Also, Starks and the North in general don't do incest. It's known in Westeros as a weird Targaryen quirk and used to explain why some of them are crazy. It's not like it's something that just any of the major families do. Cersei and Jamie's incest is characterized as something worth killing over  (and pushing children out windows)  to keep quiet.

IIRC, there's at least one uncle/niece couple in the Stark family tree (I wasn't wrong!  @doram) . Brother/sister is different, it seemed to be a Targaryen thing only in Westeros and at least frowned upon otherwise.  What was worth killing for, in Jaime and Cersei's case, was sleeping with the King's wife.

I don't know why, but on rewatch, Jorah and Sam's handshake made me think of Jeor Mormont and Aemon Targaryen, next generation.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Happy Harpy

[Francie]

2 hours ago, Tikichick said:

At this point I can't see what would move onscreen Jamie to break with her after he saw the sept drove Tommen out the window and she simply stepped over his corpse to put the crown on her head and kept on with business.  I've always felt it would happen, but I really wonder what is his breaking point this far down the road?

I simply cannot wrap my brain around the fact that the man who experienced his first real fatherly moment of joy bringing Myrcella home, only to have it ripped cruelly away from him moments later, could have shrugged off what happened with Tommen and Cersei's part in it. 

I don't know that he'd find Cersei to have "a part" in Tommen's death.  What he knows, when going to the RIverlands, is that the High Septon had his hooks into this son. "They have our son." He knows that Tommen is getting pulled in 100 directions -- that he's fallen under the High Septon's, and to a certain extent, Margaery's influence. That Kevan and Pycelle are whispering in his ear and controlling things.  He knows these people influenced Tommen's to fire hi from the Kingsguard and send him away from the City.  So, he would likely put himself in the same boat as Cersei.  That they were being held at bay by them. 

 

Jaime, I think, knows that Cersei blew up the sept. He gets, and accepts, that she was backed into a corner and given really no other offensive weapon.  He knows that she did take measures to keep Tommen from being in that sept. But I think he's laid blame for Tommen's suicide on all the people he thinks were tearing him apart, and that Cersei and he were the only two who had Tommen's best interests at heart .

 

That's how I interpret how Jaime is interpreting those events.  

[Tikichick]

5 minutes ago, Francie said:

I don't know that he'd find Cersei to have "a part" in Tommen's death.  What he knows, when going to the RIverlands, is that the High Septon had his hooks into this son. "They have our son." He knows that Tommen is getting pulled in 100 directions -- that he's fallen under the High Septon's, and to a certain extent, Margaery's influence. That Kevan and Pycelle are whispering in his ear and controlling things.  He knows these people influenced Tommen's to fire hi from the Kingsguard and send him away from the City.  So, he would likely put himself in the same boat as Cersei.  That they were being held at bay by them. 

 

Jaime, I think, knows that Cersei blew up the sept. He gets, and accepts, that she was backed into a corner and given really no other offensive weapon.  He knows that she did take measures to keep Tommen from being in that sept. But I think he's laid blame for Tommen's suicide on all the people he thinks were tearing him apart, and that Cersei and he were the only two who had Tommen's best interests at heart .

 

That's how I interpret how Jaime is interpreting those events.  

I can understand what you're saying, and it makes a lot of sense.  What trips me up is the fact that Jamie experienced something with Myrcella on that boat just before she died in his arms that I don't think he ever allowed himself to even hope for.  He was acknowledged as father by one of his children, and with love no less.  Having it monstrously ripped away like that had to be doubly soul crushing.  If one thing in the world could challenge what he feels for Cersei, I would say it would absolutely have been a father's love.

Cersei having any part whatsoever in Tommen's end I thought was the end for her with him. 

I see your logic, I'm just stuck on the fact he had such a transformative experience -- and wound up right back with her yet again. 

[Pogojoco]

Fine, Starks in the past have intermarried. I still think there could be more interesting (and less icky, and frankly, boring) ways of proceeding. 

 

More to the topic of the episode, Tyrion's own needs/ family issues clouded his judgement, I think. He thought Casterly Rock was important to Jamie because it's important to him. It's always bugged him that it's his seat by right (as Jamie gave up his claim by becoming a King's Guard) but Tywin would never acknowledge as much. Looking back, it's completely obvious that securing Highgarden is important as that's a source of grain/food stuffs. Olenna and Tywin spend scenes negotiating food to King's Landing before Joffrey's wedding. Tyrion probably didn't consider it necessary because he thought he had it secured. He probably also should've remembered that Lannisters are great at negotiating and convincing people to change allegiances. It's how Tywin got and kept power. 

[Tikichick]

Just now, doram said:

With the controversy surrounding incest, it's many things but boring it's not. 

Actually I think it would be more interesting to not have the Danaerys/Jon, Ice/Fire endgame be them becoming a couple.  That's more the expected storyline outcome with a man and a woman of a certain age.  I don't want some fairytale happily ever after.  Show me something truly interesting and let them redefine ruling the seven kingdoms -- heck, let them redefine the seven kingdoms. 

[Calamity Jane]

13 hours ago, Oscirus said:

As to Jamie still being with Cersei, we have to give him a break, Jamie has nobody else to turn to.  

Ah, but as Arya was told at the House of Black and White (in the show anyway, don't remember the book on this) - "You have everywhere else to go." He could always go somewhere, join a free company in Essos or whatever.  He just isn't ready to give up some semblance of his privileged life, even though it's slipping away faster and faster.  

[MrsR]

As I am a fan of British history and can actually give a short lecture on the War of the Roses and the intersecting family relationships, the incest angle doesn't bother me so much. Yes Aunt/Nephew is especially tricky (considering how continued experience with that practice tragically ended the Spanish Royal line)  a once off between two people who are unaware of the connection doesn't freak me out.

 

I mean in watching this show, I have lived through child defenestration, flaying, rape, murderous target practice, torture, ritual burnings, castration, dogs eating children, beheadings, various dismemberments and so on and so on.

Some sex between two hot young people who are unaware ain't going to send me packing. I'm made of tougher stuff.

[Tikichick]

24 minutes ago, doram said:

With the controversy surrounding incest, it's many things but boring it's not. 

A "twist" for the sake of a twist harms a story?  Yet you seem to be advocating controversy for the sake of controversy. 

I said nothing about a "logical" outcome, so you'll have to pick that nit alone.

13 minutes ago, doram said:

(Plus, it's easy to confuse an expected outcome with a logical outcome. A "twist" for the sake of a twist harms a story.)

[Francie]

40 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

 

I see your logic, I'm just stuck on the fact he had such a transformative experience -- and wound up right back with her yet again. 

I'm convinced of this just as much as I was convinced Snape was a good guy who had been in love with Lily Potter -- 

Hold tight. All will be explained. You're supposed to be perplexed. You're supposed to think that he's in a rut with her -- her lap dog, whatever you will. 

"The things I do for love" has far more meaning than any of us could have realized all those years ago. 

22 minutes ago, Calamity Jane said:

Ah, but as Arya was told at the House of Black and White (in the show anyway, don't remember the book on this) - "You have everywhere else to go." He could always go somewhere, join a free company in Essos or whatever.  He just isn't ready to give up some semblance of his privileged life, even though it's slipping away faster and faster.  

I don't think he's motivated by his privileged status right now. He's motivated -- well, beyond being motivated by what Cersei wants -- he's motivated by wanting to resolve this conflict amongst the houses (by having Cersei win) and creatinting a kingdom that is peaceful. He's motivated more by duty than by personal comforts.

[cambridgeguy]

50 minutes ago, Pogojoco said:

More to the topic of the episode, Tyrion's own needs/ family issues clouded his judgement, I think. He thought Casterly Rock was important to Jamie because it's important to him. It's always bugged him that it's his seat by right (as Jamie gave up his claim by becoming a King's Guard) but Tywin would never acknowledge as much. Looking back, it's completely obvious that securing Highgarden is important as that's a source of grain/food stuffs. Olenna and Tywin spend scenes negotiating food to King's Landing before Joffrey's wedding. Tyrion probably didn't consider it necessary because he thought he had it secured. He probably also should've remembered that Lannisters are great at negotiating and convincing people to change allegiances. It's how Tywin got and kept power. 

That might be some of it but that depends on where Lannisport is and how much they needed Casterly Rock's soldiers for defense.  As Robb Stark could tell you losing your ancestral home doesn't do wonders for morale anyway but if Jaime and Cersei pretty much left all of the citizens of Westeros's third largest city to fend for themselves against the dreaded foreign invaders then that really hurts.  Yes, Euron's fleet managed to wipe out the Unsullied's ships but most of the soldiers were on the ground.  Euron might be king of the seas but I can't see him being able to deal with the Unsullied in ground combat.  He's already taken Ramsay's title of supervillain extraordinaire but there have to be limits to what he can do.

Edited August 1, 2017 by cambridgeguy

[iMonrey]

Quote

Dany, over the course of the series, has built up and collected her army under the power of her dragons and told herself that as the last Targaryen, she is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. It's hers by birthright.

Ironically, the Iron Throne is not her "birthright," even by her own logic. No female descendant of a king had ever before been eligible to succeed him. Cersei has set something of a precedent by declaring herself ruler by right of conquest , more or less (or at least lack of contest), just as Robert had. The best Dany can hope for is to claim the throne thru the right of conquest.

Considering the obvious parallels between the Targaryens and the Plantagenets, it's like a female descendant of the Plantagenet line trying to claim the throne after the death of Henry VIII. Surely there are Baratheon claimants to the throne and at this point even if they are female they are still ahead of Dani in the line of succession because of Robert's conquest. 

[Francie]

10 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

That might be some of it but that depends on where Lannisport is and how much they needed Casterly Rock's soldiers for defense.  As Robb Stark could tell you losing your ancestral home doesn't do wonders for morale anyway but if Jaime and Cersei pretty much left all of the citizens of Westeros's third largest city to fend for themselves against the dreaded foreign invaders then that really hurts.  Yes, Euron's fleet managed to wipe out the Unsullied's ships but most of the soldiers were on the ground.  Euron might be king of the seas but I can't see him being able to deal with the Unsullied in ground combat.  He's already taken Ramsay's title of supervillain extraordinaire but there have to be limits to what he can do.

The plan was, I believe, that Dany's forces could have the castle. To the extent that the invaders went to Lannisport, Jaime was sacrificing that, yes. But if the invaders did sack Lannisport, they'd wouldn't gain the support of the people.  From a propaganda standpoint, Cersei would win again. "See what these invaders do?" she could say to all the other houses.  Dany would lose the people.

Fortunately, for the citizens of Lannisport, Dany sent the unsullied. And they'd do as they're told. Take the castle and don't cause unnecessary civilian casualties. 

[Pogojoco]

It's not a matter of being able to handle it. This show doesn't do romance particularly well and watching these two fairly bland actors  try to do it would be a bit of a slog.  That's what I mean by boring. Two attractive young people, they must be in love! Please just give me dragons roasting wights and politicking 

5 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Ironically, the Iron Throne is not her "birthright," even by her own logic. No female descendant of a king had ever before been eligible to succeed him. Cersei has set something of a precedent by declaring herself ruler by right of conquest , more or less (or at least lack of contest), just as Robert had. The best Dany can hope for is to claim the throne thru the right of conquest.

Considering the obvious parallels between the Targaryens and the Plantagenets, it's like a female descendant of the Plantagenet line trying to claim the throne after the death of Henry VIII. Surely there are Baratheon claimants to the throne and at this point even if they are female they are still ahead of Dani in the line of succession because of Robert's conquest. 

You're right. Her dragons are the difference. She never says that, but that's the difference.  If her dragons leave her or Cersei succeeds in killing them, I wonder where she'll be. I thought her assertion that there were centuries of peace and prosperity in the Seven Kingdoms under Targ rule to be kind of hilarious. 

[GrailKing]

14 hours ago, doram said:

I can't get over her telling the Matter of Arms to line armor with leather. I'm not doubting that a 'sweet summer child's won't know this but I'm laughing at the concept of a seasoned warrior who actually lived through Winter being written as incapable of his job so that so Sansa could shine.

Did she tell the MAA?

 She saw the Armour in passing and asked : Are they covering those breast plates in leather, where Royce said : no my Lady, Sansa asked : shouldn't they be ? before the real cold weather comes; Royce said indeed, excused himself, went there and asked why leather wasn't used.

Then it's on LF puting praise and fight every battle .......lines  to her then Bran.

Sansa grew up in WF, she probably learned why they used leather, she may not know how to make armor, but 13 years in WF ; she saw summer snows and learned how to protect themselves from the cold.

I may not know how to make sunscreen lotion, but I learned the advantage and purpose to use it, especially in summer, and can ask the question: shouldn't they use sunscreen on the child before said child burns?

[Macbeth]

7 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Can I just say, I loved the look on Varys face when Melisandre dropped her "I will die in this foreign land, just like you will" line as she walked off. He looked legitimately freaked out, it was kind of hilarious. Not that I want Varys to die or anything, and I do generally root for him, but it was nice to see someone break through his cryptic smiles and get the last word. Melisandre really knows how to close a scene, doesn't she?

 

Varys weak spots are the priestesses and magic in general really.  The red priestess last season completely freaked him out by giving him a very detailed account on how he was made a eunuch.  It was when they were admitted to Mereen that he went off to seek other allies. 

I think he is with Dany as she is his Hail Mary Pass.  If he had witnessed her walking unscathed through a burning building - He is more apt to bolt than bend the knee.  I think he just believe the myths surrounding how the dragons were born, etc.. are just myths - not real.

I think that is why book Varys wasn't with Dany and all her magic, but was looking for another, possible king.

Edited August 2, 2017 by Macbeth

[Hecate7]

7 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

The problem is that Sansa never showed any interest at all in stuff like arms and armor. If we were talking about Arya, that would be another story. I could easily see her hanging around the smithy until her nursemaid came to fetch her back to her lessons. Sansa was focused on the proper things for a woman to learn (we saw her very focused on her embroidery). But weapons? That was for men and not at all something that a proper lady should focus on.

So it's possible that she might have, on rare occasion, seen something having to do with armor construction. But it's not something that we ever saw on the show. I just can't buy that she would have no practical experience in the construction or wearing of armor, but would just have picked up on a very specific need in modifying armor for winter wear by osmosis. 

I have no trouble with Sansa understanding armor. Armor is what you wear. They didn't try to push her into understanding smithcraft or swordsmanship.

[anamika]

The Week has an article pointing out Sansa's sudden competence in all things when just two episodes back she was complaining that Ned failed to protect her by shielding her from all things. I guess she lied and Ned taught her so much that she actually knows more than the general of the Vale army about the importance of fortifications and more than blacksmiths about how to make armor after all.

Quote

Take, for example, Sansa's competence in "The Queen's Justice." Did you think it was strange? I did. Having complained that her father protected her and failed to teach her; having apparently learned so little from her mother that she didn't even know the words with which to receive Brienne into her service; having failed to rally any Northern families to the Stark cause; having inexplicably withheld Littlefinger's military support from Jon Snow and made dozens of other poor decisions, Sansa is suddenly outfitted with extraordinary logistical competence. The girl who couldn't convince a single Northern family to fight with her instinctively understands how to get nearby Keeps to send her all their extra grain on the understanding that they'll get it back if it goes unused? How did this happen? Is she like Sam? Did she dig up a Manual on Diplomatic Winter-Prep and follow the instructions?

It also makes some good points about Jon:

Quote

But Jon finally seemed to be outgrowing the sulks of a man who hates explaining himself! He expertly shut down Sansa's contention that the Karstarks and Umbers children should be punished for their fathers' crimes. Jon doesn't believe that, and he persuasively argued the point — reminding the assembled lords that he wasn't soft, but just.

This being Game of Thrones, he pointlessly backtracks. He makes a couple of good points to Daenerys, but his pitch to her is upsettingly ineffective. As Tyrion points out, what he's asking makes no sense, isn't reasonable, and his expectation that a stranger would fly to his aid on his say-so is … hard to understand. Is he really this incapable of reading an audience, or intuiting that people appreciate a story with some proof? If so, he has no business leading. He could very easily convince them by telling them he came back from the dead and showing them the scars that prove it. But no. For some reason, we're not doing that. In lieu of a useful, convincing disclosure, we get yet another instance of narrative withholding that makes Jon seem a little dumber and more hopeless — and flatlines the arc we thought he was on.

The show seems to be unwilling to let Jon grow as a leader - I guess this is because they need to give characters like Davos something to do, but it's so frustrating to watch when the 17 year old book version is a good diplomat and negotiator and forcefully makes his case to the Wildlings, NW, Stannis, Mountain clans etc about the threat of the Others.

His pitch about the WW continues to be frustratingly thin on details - all he does is tell everyone that WW are coming. Not what they are, how they operate, what he has seen etc. He speaks a few sentences and then mopes. Are people in Westeros and Dany familiar with the WW and the Night King? Is that why Jon expects them to already know about these things? No idea.

http://theweek.com/articles/715640/game-thrones-starks-problem

Edited August 2, 2017 by anamika

[screamin]

4 hours ago, Oscirus said:

I believe  that Olean na confession  opened up a huge door for jaime that wasn't previously there.

How so? Why does it make a difference that Olenna was the one who killed Joffrey?

Do you mean that Jaime might expect Cersei to forgive and spare Tyrion and Sansa now that she knows they aren't guilty of killing her son?  Well, Tyrion still killed Tywin, there's no denying that, and Cersei never needed much excuse to hate Tyrion. It could hardly come as a shock to Jaime that she'd go on hating him regardless. As for Sansa, well, Cersei would still hate and fear her as a possible candidate for being the 'younger, more beautiful queen' who would take all from her. (Incidentally, the show has completely fucked up that prophecy. Given the way Cersei's children died, there is no one candidate for 'younger, more beautiful queen' who could possibly be held responsible for the death of ALL of them).

If Jaime could think of Cersei's Mad King Aerys explosion of the High Sept and all the blocks around it as forgivable slum clearance in preparation for new and better housing, then there seems to be really nothing he won't overlook for her. Honestly, even if he disobeyed her in order to fight White Walkers instead of her chosen enemies, he'd probably think of it as protecting her best interests in spite of her poor judgement.

[Francie]

One observation I made on a re-watch:

There were 2 times this episode that someone poured 2 drinks, but only 1 person drank.

Do not tell me that's not something that'll happen, in a very important situation, down the road.

We're being groomed, people. We're being groomed. 

[WindyNights]

4 hours ago, screamin said:

I always thought book Jaime was kind of petty for forgiving Cersei, excusing, aiding and abetting her vilest impulses, but breaking with her mostly over her infidelities with Kettleblack and Lancel and her diminishing interest in him. To me show Jaime is following book Jaime pretty closely in staying faithful to her as long as she still wants him and brushing aside all her faults...making excuses for and deluding himself that she'll build a better world when she's only interested in destruction. IMO Jaime can only be redeemed if he breaks with her for a GOOD reason, not just because she slept with someone else.

Book Jaime is not a good person. Time with Brienne, the loss of his hand and Cersei's infidelity causes him to reexamine his life. He's a better person than before but Jaime will not be redeemed and will never be redeemed.

 

GRRM has set up Jaime to kill Cersei for being cuckolded. His motivation will not be heroism. The relationship is poison and it makes Jaime worse.

That said the show is not following Jaime's arc because he hardly struggles with being a true knight and being a Lannister. Show Jaime is fully on board with Cersei even if he has misgivings. 

Book Jaime may not be a good person but Show Jaime is worse.

[screamin]

25 minutes ago, anamika said:

The Week has an article pointing out Sansa's sudden competence in all things when just two episodes back she was complaining that Ned failed to protect her by shielding her from all things. I guess she lied and Ned taught her so much that she actually knows more than the general of the Vale army about the importance of fortifications and more than blacksmiths about how to make armor after all.

It also makes some good points about Jon:

 

About that article; I think she's misreading what happened between Bran and Sansa:

Quote

I was puzzled but not surprised, therefore, by how quickly her loyalty to Jon Snow went out the window on Bran's return. All those nice sibling moments between her and Jon meant nothing. Her acknowledgment of him was 100 percent provisional, and the old conventions we thought she'd outgrown, having seen more of the world, reasserted themselves instantly. Sansa appears to have learned nothing. She still fetishizes legitimacy, and she still considers Bran — Jon's younger sibling — the better Stark. She can't wait to proclaim him King. She's regressed so far I can almost imagine her sporting a Southern hairstyle and wanting to marry Joffrey.

Sansa didn't say that Bran was King in the North. She quite clearly says he is Lord of Winterfell. Sansa couldn't proclaim Bran king if she wanted to, because it's a title made by acclamation of the lords, not inheritance, and they would never proclaim paralyzed Bran king in place of warrior Jon. And as far as I can tell, Jon has never claimed the title of Lord of Winterfell, he always explicitly said Winterfell was Sansa's. So when she told Bran HE was the Lord of Winterfell, she wasn't conferring Jon's title on him; she was conferring her own title, without a trace of resentment or jealousy (though admittedly there was no doubt an element of desperation involved to say something, anything that would get a recognizable human reaction out of Bran at that point).

Not to mention I disagree with the author on this point, too:

Quote

Is he really this incapable of reading an audience, or intuiting that people appreciate a story with some proof? If so, he has no business leading. He could very easily convince them by telling them he came back from the dead and showing them the scars that prove it. But no. For some reason, we're not doing that. 

How do the scars prove squat-all about how he died and came back to life? Yes, he has scars all over his torso; they don't prove he was wounded any deeper than superficially through the skin. If he pulled open his shirt and said, "I AM THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE, ALL HAIL ME," he's likely to come off an empty braggart; probably the reason he's downplaying the whole resurrection thing.

Edited August 2, 2017 by screamin

[Francie]

22 minutes ago, screamin said:

 

If Jaime could think of Cersei's Mad King Aerys explosion of the High Sept and all the blocks around it as forgivable slum clearance in preparation for new and better housing, then there seems to be really nothing he won't overlook for her. 

This is my favorite game to play. No fighting the hypothetical. No fighting this premise. You are Cersei. You're on trial, about to face the High Septon in a trial of his making in the sept.  Your son has just outlawed trial by combat. How do YOU get out of the situation ...

 

the clock is ticking ..... 

 

(And that's how I think Jaime justifies Cersei's blowing up the sept.)

[Calamity Jane]

31 minutes ago, screamin said:

If Jaime could think of Cersei's Mad King Aerys explosion of the High Sept and all the blocks around it as forgivable slum clearance in preparation for new and better housing, then there seems to be really nothing he won't overlook for her. Honestly, even if he disobeyed her in order to fight White Walkers instead of her chosen enemies, he'd probably think of it as protecting her best interests in spite of her poor judgement.

This is how I see him at this point.  I don't think, as suggested a number of posts above, that he's on any kind of mission to save Westeros from Cersei, or somehow mitigate the damage her rampages are going to cause.  He must know that that will never happen now.  If Tommen's death wasn't enough to change his thinking, Cersei's jaw-dropping assertion that her beloved baby boy betrayed her must have done it.  I think he's only "stuck" doing what he's always done because he can't give up being Jaime Lannister.  Daario said it - everybody has a choice.  Jaime just won't choose to give up his current life.  Admittedly, the alternatives are not appealing.  But they exist. 

Edited August 2, 2017 by Calamity Jane

[screamin]

3 minutes ago, Francie said:

This is my favorite game to play. No fighting the hypothetical. No fighting this premise. You are Cersei. You're on trial, about to face the High Septon in a trial of his making in the sept.  Your son has just outlawed trial by combat. How do YOU get out of the situation ...

 

the clock is ticking ..... 

 

(And that's how I think Jaime justifies Cersei's blowing up the sept.)

Oh, I agree that Jaime would absolutely consider Cersei was justified in blowing up the Sept along with hundreds of innocent bystanders in order to escape the consequences of crimes she was absolutely guilty of committing. I'm just saying that given that, there seems to be literally nothing Jaime won't justify on Cersei's behalf.

[Francie]

2 minutes ago, screamin said:

Oh, I agree that Jaime would absolutely consider Cersei was justified in blowing up the Sept along with hundreds of innocent bystanders in order to escape the consequences of crimes she was absolutely guilty of committing. I'm just saying that given that, there seems to be literally nothing Jaime won't justify on Cersei's behalf.

Hey now, the guilty want to live just as much as the innocent do .... and he who casts the first stone ... 

I was just callin' you on the urban renewal crack. ;) 

[screamin]

2 minutes ago, Francie said:

Hey now, the guilty want to live just as much as the innocent do .... and he who casts the first stone ... 

I was just callin' you on the urban renewal crack. ;) 

Hey, Jaime started it by saying Cersei was interested in building things better...*pouts*

[Francie]

Just now, screamin said:

Hey, Jaime started it by saying Cersei was interested in building things better...*pouts*

Fair point. 

He's one step away from calling her a uniter, not a divider. 

[MrWhyt]

33 minutes ago, Francie said:

One observation I made on a re-watch:

There were 2 times this episode that someone poured 2 drinks, but only 1 person drank.

Do not tell me that's not something that'll happen, in a very important situation, down the road.

We're being groomed, people. We're being groomed. 

sometimes a cigar is just a cigar

[Francie]

4 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

sometimes a cigar is just a cigar

I'll meet you back here at the end of episode 7. 

[GrailKing]

13 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

There was no wool. There was no lining in the armour. And the way the way the conversation went, Sansa was reminding the Master of Arms that the armour needed leather when the "real Winter set in." He didn't say "oh, we only keep leather for the Lords but there's wool for the foot soldiers" or "that's what the wool is for". He went "Oh, yeah, that's a great idea, Lady Sansa! I'll get to it."

It had never even occurred to this seasoned Master of Arms to line the armour at all.

It's nice to show Sansa trying to do her best but when they need to make everyone else stupid to prop her up, it's ridiculous story-telling and personally, it threw me out of that scene completely. 

That never happened, because Sansa never talked to a MAA.

She was talking to Wolkum, Royce and LF was there, the discussion started about food; X amount of bushels, Sansa asked what did that mean; Lord Royce stated enough for a year with what is at WF at that moment, Sansa said you're telling me we don't have enough to feed people fleeing into WF, Royce agreed, Sansa asked what was the worst winter in last 100 years, Wokum said he didn't know he check Lewins records as he kept copies.

They pass people making armor, they pause Sansa looks at the man making armor they continue and Sansa asked shouldn't they be wrapped in leather for the colder weather coming, Lord Royce said yes, he excused himself talked to the armorer we hear why isn't leather ..... and it fades off.

Sansa never talked to the workers, she asked if that was the proper armor for the season coming and was told no, Royce handled it.

13 years growing up in WF, I'm sure she know why leather was used, she doesn't need how to do it;  That's for experts in weapons and armor.

[stagmania]

6 hours ago, taurusrose said:

Inaccurate term.  If Jon is Jon, and he is, how can you call him a zombie? Jon has not given up his agency, personality or soul, if you will.  He is not a mindless, rotting thing forced to do some other's bidding.  He is a living, breathing man favored by forces not totally revealed to us. Jon in no way resembles the reanimated corpses raised by the NK who are zombies.  The word that describes Jon is resurrected.

Yeah, I was being facetious. But thanks for the review of things I know!

Edited August 2, 2017 by stagmania

[GrailKing]

10 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

The problem is that Sansa never showed any interest at all in stuff like arms and armor. If we were talking about Arya, that would be another story. I could easily see her hanging around the smithy until her nursemaid came to fetch her back to her lessons. Sansa was focused on the proper things for a woman to learn (we saw her very focused on her embroidery). But weapons? That was for men and not at all something that a proper lady should focus on.

So it's possible that she might have, on rare occasion, seen something having to do with armor construction. But it's not something that we ever saw on the show. I just can't buy that she would have no practical experience in the construction or wearing of armor, but would just have picked up on a very specific need in modifying armor for winter wear by osmosis. 

No interest doesn't equate to no knowledge.

Asking about food , clothing etc, is part of a lady's education, learning the history of your  house or famous battles reading,writing ,would be basic education, walking around WF seeing armor is a visual tool . Sansa is said to be smart and a quick learner, it's not me saying it; it's Cat,Arya,Tyrion and LF.

The one person no one can dispute: GRRM:

Sansa isn't a soldier, can't use a sword like jon and Robb or like Arya, she doesn't control armies. But! Sansa has her mind just like LF has.

I may not have a desire or interest in politics, yet I know the branches of government, read and understand the constitution, etc.

I have no desire to make youtube video's but I have knowledge of audio and video codec and various software to help me if I wished to do it.

[TaurusRose]

11 hours ago, stagmania said:

Yeah, I was being facetious. But thanks for the review of things I know!

Heh. Hard to know what your intent was or what you do or don't know. Chalk it up to extreme language nerdiness on my part.

Edited August 2, 2017 by taurusrose

[Neko]

I find it troubling that Sansa can't know anything without it being a subject for discussion about how she isn't that smart or capable.  It reeks of misogyny.

[stillshimpy]

As I'm having that sort of night, I'd like to thank all the lovely people whose quotes I entirely lost because I'm a menace when it comes to quoting.  Someday I'll replace this Mac and then I'll be able to quote people frequently.  Then everyone will think I've been hacked because I have apparently really ticked off some quote fairy, I'll no longer sound a thing like myself in print. 

So here's the stuff I was pulling quotes on:  Dany, great leader? Yay? or Nay?  As it pertains to this episode only and with her character in very broad general terms: 

Book Dany: Has the benefit of an inner-monologue and a lot of detail added via the written word.  A lot of those words pertain to wardrobe, and "nibbling" because it's a whole thing with GRRM and the word nibble.  He really likes that word or the picture it conjures or something.  Anyway, we get to know Dany's thought process in between dressing and vague allusions to eating.  

Show Dany in this episode is the perfect illustration of what hobbles the character for me.  I want to have a strong opinion on her, but I just don't.  It's not the actress's fault, it truly isn't, but the poor woman has scene after scene where she's called upon to look primarily distant, possibly crazed as an undertone to light that up, amusing or affectionate as befits the situation, but mostly she's asked to play things with the vibe of, "Do your best to appear majestic.  In this outfit.  We know.  Look majestic, dignified, and sprinkle in aristocratic reserve...In this outfit.  Yes, we know.  Please do this all while wearing this wig and reciting lines in, for grins, three languages, two of which are made up. Okay, look, we really, really know, okay?  Just...do your best and...action!" 

It's really difficult for me to be as invested in the character as I'm clearly meant to be on the show because just witness what happens here:  She meets Jon Snow!  Holy shit!! The long fabled meeting, about to be committed to the digital record! This is a big thing over which show and book fans obsessed and the only "It's okay to look like I've unbunched just an eensy, teeny bit now..." scene that we got was Dany with Tyrion where she astutely asks Tyrion if he heard what we all heard and noticed it.  Yes, the "stabbed in the heart thing" they had to establish that she noticed that verbally, in another scene because Dany might have the most action but the poor actor is almost never called upon to be emotionally dynamic.  They had to have an entirely separate scene just to let the audience know that she noticed it.  Noticed it.  Forget what she thought about it, apparently.  

I know it fits the circumstances of the meeting but maybe weigh the screen time a little differently? I need some access to the emotional life of the character.   What happened here was clearly a bunch of things that would be insanely important to Dany. 

She gets to Westeros and almost immediately takes staggering losses in the form of every person in an alliance she just made.  It would have been nice to see her get a chance to react to that in some revealing way.    The poor woman gets scene after scene of "please be as enigmatic as possible, you're supposed to be a queen" and even when she has something that any feeling being would react to, the show isn't letting us in on how she feels or reacts to anything.  

Not to mention the whole, "Say now, did you also hear him reference being stabbed in the heart?" "Yup." "Odd. What do you make of it?"  "Well, since we're only discussing the possibility on an army of walking dead people, we certainly shouldn't discuss, at length, how unlikely it is that someone would live through that." "Certainly not. "  *scene*  

Edited August 2, 2017 by stillshimpy

[Shimmergloom]

14 hours ago, Dev F said:

Which is why this bothers me much less than something like Sam "discovering" that a volcanic island has lots of volcanic rocks on it.

Especially since Sam shows up at Oldtown and is smarter than all these Maesters, but it's ok.  Cause he's not Sansa.

[Oscirus]

6 hours ago, screamin said:

How so? Why does it make a difference that Olenna was the one who killed Joffrey?

Do you mean that Jaime might expect Cersei to forgive and spare Tyrion and Sansa now that she knows they aren't guilty of killing her son?  Well, Tyrion still killed Tywin, there's no denying that, and Cersei never needed much excuse to hate Tyrion. It could hardly come as a shock to Jaime that she'd go on hating him regardless. As for Sansa, well, Cersei would still hate and fear her as a possible candidate for being the 'younger, more beautiful queen' who would take all from her. (Incidentally, the show has completely fucked up that prophecy. Given the way Cersei's children died, there is no one candidate for 'younger, more beautiful queen' who could possibly be held responsible for the death of ALL of them).

If Jaime could think of Cersei's Mad King Aerys explosion of the High Sept and all the blocks around it as forgivable slum clearance in preparation for new and better housing, then there seems to be really nothing he won't overlook for her. Honestly, even if he disobeyed her in order to fight White Walkers instead of her chosen enemies, he'd probably think of it as protecting her best interests in spite of her poor judgement.

No I mean that it likely restores Jaime's faith in his brother.  Cersei/Tyrion ever having a relationship flew out the window a long time ago. I feel like a renewed relationship with Tyrion offers him other options.

[Oscirus]

7 hours ago, Calamity Jane said:

Ah, but as Arya was told at the House of Black and White (in the show anyway, don't remember the book on this) - "You have everywhere else to go." He could always go somewhere, join a free company in Essos or whatever.  He just isn't ready to give up some semblance of his privileged life, even though it's slipping away faster and faster.  

Fair enough, but it seems to me that a common theme among the majority of the characters. No matter how hard they may try or how tempting it is, they can't escape who they are. Same is true for Jaime. He can't give up the life. That being said I'd argue that he doesn't even love Cersei anymore. He's desperately trying to find that girl he once loved. Unfortunately for him, this season is proving that she's gone.

[GrailKing]

8 hours ago, anamika said:

The Week has an article pointing out Sansa's sudden competence in all things when just two episodes back she was complaining that Ned failed to protect her by shielding her from all things. I guess she lied and Ned taught her so much that she actually knows more than the general of the Vale army about the importance of fortifications and more than blacksmiths about how to make armor after all.

If your a child of  the North, you don't need to know how to make the armor to know which type to use for the winter.

The armorer I assumed is of the south, the armor is the wrong type for where they are.

Mance or Tormond when face to face with Stannis and Davos were told "and you got the wrong Armor on for this weather; I don't think Tormond knows how to forge armor, but he knows just steel isn't the right type to wear now.

I didn't hear her talk of fortifications, Just food and winter and she never gave a hint of knowing or even talking to a smith on his lack of knowledge on making armor, as a child of the north she realized they were forging the wrong type for the weather and asked if her knowledge was correct, which Royce agreed with her and took care of it.

[Bill1978]

Well that has to be one of the most enjoyable episodes of GoT I have watched. Not saying the best just really enjoyable. And I will put it down to all the little 'natural' humour that was allowed in. I'm never a fan of shows that decide that serious drama all the time is the way to go. So many little quotable lines. My favourite would probably have to be the Jon Snow....King of the North response to the credentials of Dany. I actually started laughing as her titles were prattled off. I'm pretty sure when QEII is introduced at events it's just Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland {and maybe insert Commonwealth nation she is visiting}. Dany needs to dump the 'nicknames' of her title like Breaker of Chains if she wants me to stop rolling my eyes.

This episode confirmed for me why I thought I disliked the first episode. The first episode was filled with stand alone plots, where the 2 after had characters of different plots interacting which is great and far more enjoyable. Although my eyes and ears did glaze over with the Iron Bank visit. Don't ask me what that was about. I just wish a raven was sent saying 'You have a fortnight to pay us back, Queenie'

I feel I was meant to feel a bit satisfied over the fate of Ellaria and her daughter, but all I could think was that Cersei has taken her revenge to far with them. Sure kill the daughter, I can deal with that. But locking Ellaria up for eternity is just plain madness and nnecessary. I felt for Ellaria and her daughter in that final moment when they reached for each other. I do hope then when Cersei dies (she dies right???) someone at least unchains Ellaria. Cause she got a couple of You go girl from me for her spitting and she needs to be rewarded for that LOL

As others have said the happiness of the Stark reunion this week was destroyed by robotic Bran. I hope he snaps out of the monotone before the end of the season. Maybe Arya will snap him out of it when she gets to Winterfell.

While it is nice to see Dany taking hits, does it really have to be to the benefit of Cersei? Argh. Cersei dies right?

Sad to see Oleanna die. I always enjoyed her snark and honesty. She will be missed. And with her death, I have to give up on my theory that the ending would involve a Commonwealth of Kingdoms. Like what QEII rules over at the moment. The show really is wiping out each of the 7 kingdoms one by one aren't there.

The most baffling moment of this episode for me was the crowd spitting and throwing things at Euron's prisoners. It just seemed far too quick for the townsfolk to be so supportive of Euron's achievements. I'm not even sure if those people would know what the person who killed their Princess looked like or care about it that much. And not sure why they would feel the need to celebrate Euron, who I got the impression was a nobody and didn't become a somebody until AFTER he presented his gifts.

And I agree with all those who believe there will be some important information in the scrolls Sam has to re-scribe. Why else would the maester delay 'scolding' Sam until the afternoon? He needed time to fetch the necessary books and scrolls. Otherwise he would have just said 'Sam, my office. NOW!!'