S07.E02: Stormborn

[Haleth]

3 minutes ago, Francie said:

I do get what you're try to say. Here's my last attempt to explain what I'm trying to explain. You're all doing what my con law professor would call "fighting the hypo."

The Baratheon line is extinguished.  It's gone. Root and stem. They're all gone. There are no distant cousins.  There are no living distant cousins of distant cousins.  There are no living distant cousins of distant cousins are distant cousins. There is nobody identifiable alive who has Baratheon blood. In that case, to whom does the throne go? 

You can get a maester who traces back the generations many many generations, and comes up with the name.  No matter who that is,  if they're going back six to eight generations are more, it's going to sound like it's out of left field. So, the lords aren't fighting that it's Cersei. 

And I get what you are saying, but the question was who is Tommen's heir. I'm sure there are distant 2nd, 3rd, 4th cousins on his father's side(*) since the houses intermarry frequently.  But you and others are absolutely right that no one is going to challenge Cersei's butt on the throne.  At least until she starts losing. 

*Of course the thing is that Robert wasn't Tommen's father anyway.

[Francie]

6 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

The remaining leading families' meek acceptance of Cersei is taking me out of the story, so to speak. What she has done — that the public knows about — is far worse than anything the mad king did, and look at what resulted: Robert's Rebellion.  IRL, someone like Cersei would have been given the Bonaparte treatment by now and KL would be well under siege. Also, Olenna would have been expected to communicate to her vassals, her change of alliance — shit, she would have done well to command the Tarlys lay siege, themselves, instead of licking Jamie's boots.

The Vale is all at Winterfell, but the Freys are all dead and six young boys aren't going to take out the remnants of the Tully army. They, too, would have found someone to pay the rent by now and go after Cersei, or at least support Jon.

Robert's Rebellion didn't happen just because of the mad king. It happened because Robert was pissed that, in his mind, Rhaegar kidnapped his intended.  Plenty of houses, about half the realm, stayed on the Targaryen side of Robert's Rebellion. It wasn't until they were quashed that they accepted Robert as the new ruler.

[FemmyV]

Just now, Francie said:

Robert's Rebellion didn't happen just because of the mad king. It happened because Robert was pissed that, in his mind, Rhaegar kidnapped his intended.  Plenty of houses, about half the realm, stayed on the Targaryen side of Robert's Rebellion. It wasn't until they were quashed that they accepted Robert as the new ruler.

Robert wasn't alone in his rebellion, though, because of what the Mad King did to Brandon and Rickard Stark. If the Targaryens had stopped with Rheagar taking Robert's girlfriend, Robert wouldn't have enough other outraged nobles backing him, to be successful.

[Gertrude]

As to the question of Tommen's heir, he had none. Cersei is Tommen's successor, but not heir. She took it and no one wants to challenge her. Done.

Well, Dany wants to challenge her, but she would challenge anyone and it's not Cersei specific.

[Blonde Gator]

11 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Thank you to nodorothyparker and Francie for mentioning Hot Pie told Arya that he heard Cersei blew up the Sept of Baelor, i.e she murdered Mace Tyrell, Lord of Highgarden and Lord Tarly's liege lord

Cersei has no claim to the Iron Throne, so why is Tarly even considering supporting her

As the saying goes, "possession is 9/10ths of the law".   Proximity and armies give her that right, however Tarly turning his cloak is the thing to question.  Is it a show thing?  I suppose we may never know.

[stillshimpy]

14 hours ago, benteen said:

We owe Euron our thanks for killing two of the three Sand Snakes (at least one of them is Colleen Wing on Iron FIst) but we were treated to another god awful line with Ellaria's "southern invasion" quip.

I noticed that they deBarbied the Sand Snakes a bit (more than a bit) so that they were no longer quite so, "Hi, we're sexualized to an unnecessary degree that is pointless in this plot" and I did appreciate that.  It made perfect sense that Theon broke and jumped.   A lot of these characters have been hideously traumatized and I like that the show is being mindful of that in the character actions.  

I guess poor Grey Worm is off to his death, seeing as whenever anyone has a sexual encounter on this show that isn't deeply disturbing, it's like the Harbinger of Death.  "Hey, look!  People having sex wherein no one is being treated with violence or as a piece of meat.  That's nice.   I suppose we ought to get about ordering their tombstones though because that never ends well on this show."  

I really hope the show didn't just have Nymeria show up so that we could be more fully devastated when she's killed because this show and direwolves, man, because they are so expensive to render they tend to only show up for important plot points.  Here's freaking hoping that was just a bit of fanservice, long overdue after some of the shit they've pulled with the direwolves.  Tossing out a head last season just felt like the biggest "fuck you" to the fans, so here's hoping this was the "in retrospect, we hear you, and here, have a bit of resolution that isn't horrifying" as an apology.  

I have essentially no idea what happened to Jorah.  No one in this house does because my husband and I were having a pleasant "shielding our eyes behind our hands, now we will begin to converse loudly to cover the sounds, JESUS SHOW, this is a pleasant way to spend time, how are you?"  but I'll just assume that Sam basically gave Jorah a manual chemical peel and leave it at that. 

I say in all seriousness:  Hooray.   So much less shit this week.  

[FemmyV]

3 hours ago, Dev F said:

It's actually one of the more persistent weaknesses in the show's writing: the writers are great at coming up with compelling character moments, but not as good at establishing coherent character arcs. So, for instance, Arya's arc of the past few seasons ends up being that she comes to accept that she's No One but then realizes that she's still Arya Stark, then enacts a cold-blooded campaign to avenge her family, but not too bloody because she won't kill innocent Lannisters, and then she lets go of the campaign so she can go home, but then wonders whether she's too wild to actually do that . . . It's all over the place, and even if usually works in the moment, in the long term it ends up moving the character every which way in support of no clear end.

Jebus, yes! We watched Arya go through: watching Ned's assassination; traveling with rough young men and criminals; traveling with the Hound; Faceless Men, and through it all, she essentially remained Arya. Shocked Arya, sad Arya, angry Arya, reflective Arya, but basically: Arya. And after two significant encounters (Freys, Lannister soldiers), in her confusion, she channels Clegayne (kudos to whomever caught that first) while reuniting with Hot Pie? WTF? Then she's Arya again for Nymeria. Who will she be when she gets to Winterfell, just so the writers can show us how much Arya Has Changed (over the course of two episodes)?

[FnkyChkn34]

1 hour ago, GrailKing said:

Jon is training her subtly with Brienne there to protect her and the invisible   Ghost.

I was disappointed to see that Ghost didn't go with him.  Would that have been so hard to include?

[Eyes High]

19 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

I think its going to be more about the parallels though... Mad King wanted to wildfire the city, Cersei wildfire'd the Sept and a whole bunch of people. Mad King murdered children and their parents in front of each other and Cersei will likely do the same. 

In Ellaria's case, though, the parallel fails, because Rickard hadn't murdered any of Aerys' children, so it's unlikely that Jaime will be influenced by that event one way or another.

Edited July 24, 2017 by Eyes High

[FnkyChkn34]

15 minutes ago, CrashTextDummie said:

Arya nearly brought tears to my eyes. Twice. Hot Pie is such an anomaly on this show, a pure, kind-hearted person who leads a good life unmarred by the kind of tragedy that every other pure, kind-hearted character has been met with. So his presence alone in the reunion scene already gave it the rarest of uplifting, warms-the-heart feeling. And then MW's reaction to the news and (for the first time in how long in Arya's storyline?) the Stark theme swelling up, a gorgeous, less depressing version of it. And then she turned her horse around and the scene was cemented as possibly my favorite in the entire series so far. Finally, closure to an incredibly dark, incredibly long chapter in the life of Arya Stark. So, so well done. The Nymeria reunion was simply icing on the pie, if no less emotionally satisfying.

Maybe this is just my general dislike for Arya coming through, but once someone else pointed out that she kept wiping her mouth with the back of her hand, that was ALL I noticed on my re-watch.  Yes, she's a slob.  She has no manners.  What is that supposed to convey?  She's as wild as her direwolf?  Or that she's just a pig?

[screamin]

4 minutes ago, CrashTextDummie said:

Arya nearly brought tears to my eyes. Twice. Hot Pie is such an anomaly on this show, a pure, kind-hearted person who leads a good life unmarred by the kind of tragedy that every other pure, kind-hearted character has been met with. So his presence alone in the reunion scene already gave it the rarest of uplifting, warms-the-heart feeling. And then MW's reaction to the news and (for the first time in how long in Arya's storyline?) the Stark theme swelling up, a gorgeous, less depressing version of it. And then she turned her horse around and the scene was cemented as possibly my favorite in the entire series so far. Finally, closure to an incredibly dark, incredibly long chapter in the life of Arya Stark. So, so well done. The Nymeria reunion was simply icing on the pie, if no less emotionally satisfying.

I really loved Maisie's portrayal of Arya at this point...the flatness of her emotions when she met with Hot Pie, with only the mildest of interest and reaction to even the surprise appearance of an old friend conveys how close Arya has gotten to becoming a sociopath - one of whose characteristics is that s/he has no deep emotional attachments to anyone or anything. Then later, she showed the dawning of real profound emotion showing that she still CAN feel love and turn aside from the path she'd been following. Wonderfully done.

[GrailKing]

14 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I was disappointed to see that Ghost didn't go with him.  Would that have been so hard to include?

I believe he was leaving ghost to protect Sansa.

[FormerMod-a1]

11 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

What is that supposed to convey?  She's as wild as her direwolf?  Or that she's just a pig?

That she was hungry?  Who knows how often she gets to eat.  She last ate with those soldiers, but how long ago was that?  And even if not that long, I'm sure living how she does doesn't lead to great feasts.

[Maximum Taco]

18 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I was disappointed to see that Ghost didn't go with him.  Would that have been so hard to include?

I'm 90% sure that the Ghost scene that was cut was him asking Ghost to protect Sansa.

Especially after Littlefinger's creeptastic "I love Sansa like her mother" comment.

Edited July 24, 2017 by Maximum Taco

[mrspidey]

14 hours ago, anamika said:

Arya hearing about Jon and going home! Nymeria not going with her :(

I loved that last bit. Especially Arya's "That's not you".

That was a great callback to season one where Ned talked to Arya on some stairs and told her how she'd marry a lord and becoma a beautiful noble lady of the north. To which Arya replied: "No. That's not me". And then she left. 

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, aquarian1 said:

That she was hungry?  Who knows how often she gets to eat.  She last ate with those soldiers, but how long ago was that?  And even if not that long, I'm sure living how she does doesn't lead to great feasts.

Brought me back to the farm scene; she acted more like Sandor.

[Francie]

13 minutes ago, screamin said:

I really loved Maisie's portrayal of Arya at this point...the flatness of her emotions when she met with Hot Pie, with only the mildest of interest and reaction to even the surprise appearance of an old friend conveys how close Arya has gotten to becoming a sociopath - one of whose characteristics is that s/he has no deep emotional attachments to anyone or anything. Then later, she showed the dawning of real profound emotion showing that she still CAN feel love and turn aside from the path she'd been following. Wonderfully done.

It was masterfully done. And heart-breaking, for me, to watch. But it also struck a false chord for me.  We saw Arya being able to interact personably, personally, and socially with Lady Crane.  The events were short – hours long – between the Waif killing Lady Crane, being killed by Arya, and Arya marching in to the House of Black and White and declaring, “I’m Arya Stark, and I’m going home.”

So when did this transformation to a person with flat affect come from?  During the ship ride across the Narrow Sea? 

[Dev F]

2 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

I'm 90% sure that the Ghost scene that was cut was him asking Ghost to protect Sansa.

Makes sense. Also, as with "Hardhome," I'm 100 percent on board with the principle that you don't schlep a giant half-wild canine around with you on a boat.

[Francie]

32 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

Robert wasn't alone in his rebellion, though, because of what the Mad King did to Brandon and Rickard Stark. If the Targaryens had stopped with Rheagar taking Robert's girlfriend, Robert wouldn't have enough other outraged nobles backing him, to be successful.

Yes, but your point was that the lords shouldn't support Cersei because what she had done, you argue, is worse that what they knew that the Mad King had done. 

And my response was, it didn't matter to a whole bunch of them back then in Robert's Rebellion.  It didn't matter to the Reach. It didn't matter to the Westerlands. It didn't matter to about half the Riverlands. It only matter to Robert, the STarks, and Jon Aryn and the three kingdoms they controlled.  Everyone else was "Not my fight," until they came in strategically. 

So, same philosophy should apply here. Cersei targeted her enemies. The faith militant, the Tyrells (save one), and the lord and ladies of the crownlands are gone. Those lords before her didn't have a dog in that fight.  She didn't attack the Reach. She instead was responding to their power grab beyond the Reach. 

Edited July 24, 2017 by Francie

[Mya Stone]

To the poster who said Nymeria's new pack was harkening back to the brothers and sisters she was born among, I agree. 

Upon further reflection, I also believe the meeting between the two was meant to show Nymeria finding a place "in her pack" and meant to illustrate that Arya must go "find her pack." I know she was heading to Winterfell anyway, but the imagery of the wolves among Nymeria was too strong to not push Arya even farther towards the "find your pack" mentality. 

[nodorothyparker]

47 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

The remaining leading families' meek acceptance of Cersei is taking me out of the story, so to speak.

I think this might be a very different story if Cersei taking the throne she has no legitimate right to had happened a couple of seasons ago before most of the houses and their armies had been largely decimated by years and years of warfare.  Now those who managed to survive are facing winter with limited stores to make it through and an imminent foreign invasion sitting just offshore.  It may be as simple as those survivors now having bigger fish to fry than worry about whoever's styling herself queen in faraway Kings Landing at the moment.  As Jaime pointed out last episode, she has any real control in maybe three of the seven kingdoms at best.  The rest may be simply ignoring her while they deal with their own problems.

[Tikichick]

3 hours ago, Dev F said:

I think the biggest source of confusion is that the various storylines are not actually happening simultaneously, and it's hard to know how they're all supposed to line up. It seems like Varys should at least know that Jon is on his way to becoming king, since we saw the Battle of the Bastards and much of the aftermath before Varys even made it to Dorne to recruit Dany's Westerosi allies, but the end of Jon's storyline was taking place at a much faster pace than everyone else's, so it's possible much of it took place once Dany was underway.

Or maybe it isn't? I haven't actually gone back and checked the various intersection points. I would hope that someone in the writer's room is keeping track of how things line up, but I wouldn't be completely surprised to learn that no one is.

Yep, yep. And here I think part of the confusion stems from the fact that this revelation runs contra to the one Arya made earlier in the episode, when she decided to give up on her quest to kill the queen and ride to Winterfell instead. So they're whiplashing the character a little bit, by essentially having her decide that she is indeed the same person she was and it's time to return to her family, but then have her ponder whether maybe she was right in the first place and there's no way for her to go back to what she was.

It's actually one of the more persistent weaknesses in the show's writing: the writers are great at coming up with compelling character moments, but not as good at establishing coherent character arcs. So, for instance, Arya's arc of the past few seasons ends up being that she comes to accept that she's No One but then realizes that she's still Arya Stark, then enacts a cold-blooded campaign to avenge her family, but not too bloody because she won't kill innocent Lannisters, and then she lets go of the campaign so she can go home, but then wonders whether she's too wild to actually do that . . . It's all over the place, and even if usually works in the moment, in the long term it ends up moving the character every which way in support of no clear end.

Maybe it's meant to be Arya realizing Nymeria has become a seriously wild thing, spending most of her time killing to survive, and thus could no longer adapt to once again being her companion and a life at Winterfell.  This in the aftermath of Arya's bloodiest actions, and watching her truly appalling table manners.  Granted, the standards were lower along the road when she ate with the soldiers, but she ate like a truly feral beast at the table with Hot Pie.  Maybe Arya has doubts about being able to live a life at home with her siblings anymore in light of who she has become and what she has done to get there.

[Greta]

I have no idea how to find it now, but I remember last year someone worked through a family tree to determine that after all the Baratheon deaths, Robert's closest living male heir would have been... Tywin Lannister. There was a Lannister-Baratheon marriage generations past directly referenced in the AGOT when noted geneticist Ned Stark was researching the "black of hair" marker.

Of course, the throne has always gone to the closest male heir.  And since Tommen retired Jaime from the Kingsguard, the closest male heir is standing right next to Cersei.

[Tikichick]

3 hours ago, screamin said:

Re: the whole Sansa/Tyrion marriage still valid or not thing...I really wouldn't like it if the showrunners decided to put them together at the end as a facile 'happily ever after' gesture. Their marriage was a product of coercion on both sides (though much more one than the other) and I can't see either character (especially Sansa) really wanting such a union to continue.

Actually I think Sansa's experiences with Joffrey, and especially Ramsay, may leave the door slightly open to her coming to reason that being married to someone kind is infinitely preferable. 

[RedHawk]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

His closest relative traced through his father.

You mean Robert Baratheon? I don't think there's a maester in Westeros who's going to concern himself with this question now.

Edited July 24, 2017 by RedHawk
Took out something that may have been in books but not series

[YaddaYadda]

6 hours ago, anamika said:

From Bryan Cogman on Twitter "FYI... We shot a Jon/Ghost scene. Didn't make it in. I tried! Thx for watching, everybody. #Stormborn"

Ugh! I hope all these cut scenes make it into the extras.

I would have taken Jon/Ghost over the extended Grey Worm/Missandei scene. The dialogue was really good, but that scene stretched into forever for me and I looked at the clock and it was the halfway point of the episode. They could also have skipped Yara/Ellaria altogether. 

I was glad Tyrion brought up Myrcella and I wish he had thrown one of the pieces on the map at her head for that barb about wishing Oberyn hadn't died defending him. Was she there? Did she know Oberyn at all? Does she realize no one twisted his arm into championing Tyrion and that he entered single-combat because he wanted to avenge his sister's horrific death and her children's? I don't even understand how that's her reply. Myrcella did nothing wrong, and Trystane was Oberyn's blood. 

I hate the Sand Snakes, and they were beyond annoying before the battle started because why write them as anything less? But Obara and Nymeria went out like champs.

Dragonstone scenes with Varys/Dany, Dany/Olenna, Mel/everyone, A+

The scenes in the north were good, I wish Jon had snapped LF's neck. The man doesn't know when to stop or when to shut his lying mouth. 

Theon...I was really surprised that he even fought. I thought he'd be cowering somewhere until I saw him on the deck. I kind of get why he did what he did in the end though.

Sam with Jorah and the whole greyscale and transitioning the pus to the people eating food the same color - Very gross and also, why?

Arya never doesn't break my heart. Finding out about Winterfell and Jon, Maisie Williams can convey a lot without dialogue. It sort of reminded me of Arya hiding Needle. But I have to say that the scene with Nymeria left me rather cold. I did not feel it. Not because I didn't think the actress did a good job on it, but because it just came out of nowhere. Arya in the books is bonded to Nymeria, on the show, she isn't. They took away the warging and reduced the direwolves to nothing, so I felt nothing. I felt more when Summer died last season protecting Bran, or when Shaggy's head was given to Ramsay. 

Edited July 24, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[VCRTracking]

I'm looking forward to the Sansa/Arya reunion(if it happens) because while I'm sure it will be at first, the old resentment and unresolved issues they have will come back. They've both changed so much but their old dynamic I believe will be the same.

[screamin]

22 minutes ago, Francie said:

It was masterfully done. And heart-breaking, for me, to watch. But it also struck a false chord for me.  We saw Arya being able to interact personably, personally, and socially with Lady Crane.  The events were short – hours long – between the Waif killing Lady Crane, being killed by Arya, and Arya marching in to the House of Black and White and declaring, “I’m Arya Stark, and I’m going home.”

So when did this transformation to a person with flat affect come from?  During the ship ride across the Narrow Sea? 

It may well have been the death of Lady Crane and the Waif and the House of Black and White being responsible for her death that did that - a replay of the hard lessons she's already learned, namely "Care for somebody and they'll die", as well as "Trust in something and it'll fail you or double-cross you and try to destroy you."

Not to mention she got to indulge in the sociopath's fondest dream of mass slaughter of people she hates...as a gratifying, positive experience, it would likely push her deeper into the role.

Edited July 24, 2017 by screamin

[proserpina65]

Hot Pie!  That is all for now.

[VCRTracking]

1 minute ago, YaddaYadda said:

I was glad Tyrion brought up Myrcella and I wish he had thrown one of the pieces on the map at her head for that barb about wishing Oberyn hadn't died defending him. Was she there? Did she know Oberyn at all? Does she realize no one twisted his arm into championing Tyrion and that he entered single-combat because he wanted to avenge his sister's horrific death and her children's? I don't even understand how that's her reply. Myrcella did nothing wrong, and Trystane was Oberyn's blood. 

And he did it mainly to kill the Mountain to avenge his sister as much to help Tyrion. Then she goes and kills his brother? Fuck this bitch. The Sand Snakes were also jerks but one of them at least brought up the point their father got killed because he was careless.

[nodorothyparker]

2 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

I was glad Tyrion brought up Myrcella and I wish he had thrown one of the pieces on the map at her head for that barb about wishing Oberyn hadn't died defending him. Was she there? Did she know Oberyn at all? Does she realize no one twisted his arm into championing Tyrion and that he entered single-combat because he wanted to avenge his sister's horrific death and her children's? I don't even understand how that's her reply. Myrcella did nothing wrong, and Trystane was Oberyn's blood. 

Ellaria was sitting there watching it.  She saw how the whole thing played out, which is why nothing about the entire stupid Dorne story as presented has made sense.  She knew Oberyn volunteered to stand as Tyrion's champion.  She saw him strutting around the arena doing his best Inigo Montoya impression when he had the Mountain on the ground instead of finishing him off first.  Yet they've acted like the Lannisters were somehow responsible for the decisions he made and decided that murdering the legitimate head and heir of Oberyn's house was the correct response to it.

[SimoneS]

As for Tarly and the other lords, there is no absolute no rationale for them allying with Cersei other than as a plot device. Oh, Daenerys has the exact forces that Aegon had when he conquered Westeros so let us ally with her enemy. WTF! If they really don't want their daughters raped by the Dothraki or to be fried to a crisp, their only option is to bend a knee to Daenerys.

Tarly allying with Cersei, especially makes no sense because as @screamin pointed out he is now Olenna's only presumptive heir. Why risk losing everything by betraying Olenna now that all this power is almost in his grasp?

Edited July 24, 2017 by SimoneS

[FnkyChkn34]

37 minutes ago, aquarian1 said:

That she was hungry?  Who knows how often she gets to eat.  She last ate with those soldiers, but how long ago was that?  And even if not that long, I'm sure living how she does doesn't lead to great feasts.

 But that bag of money can buy her whatever she wants. From others who have traveled, we know that inns and pubs exist. 

[Oscirus]

4 hours ago, Miles said:

Really? Two sandsnakes couldn't take out Euron? That makes the show Dorne storyline even more pathetic somehow.

Also Euron was cut by one of them. If he isn't dead within the next episode I'm calling shenanigans of the highest order!

To be fair, the whip was never established as a dangerous weapon, so he was fighting one and being annoyed by the other and he took out the fighter first.

[Oscirus]

3 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Jon meets Tyrion next week that be a good time for how's my wife?

Does he even know that she's still alive? Jon might tell him when he arrives, but at the current time, these guys know nothing about the North other than Jon being king.

[stillshimpy]

1 hour ago, CrashTextDummie said:

Arya nearly brought tears to my eyes. Twice. Hot Pie is such an anomaly on this show, a pure, kind-hearted person who leads a good life unmarred by the kind of tragedy that every other pure, kind-hearted character has been met with. So his presence alone in the reunion scene already gave it the rarest of uplifting, warms-the-heart feeling. And then MW's reaction to the news and (for the first time in how long in Arya's storyline?) the Stark theme swelling up, a gorgeous, less depressing version of it. And then she turned her horse around and the scene was cemented as possibly my favorite in the entire series so far. Finally, closure to an incredibly dark, incredibly long chapter in the life of Arya Stark. So, so well done. The Nymeria reunion was simply icing on the pie, if no less emotionally satisfying.

I get so nervous whenever HotPie pops up because I always expect him to die in some terrible fashion, likely involving an oven.   It's amazing how the show can have a guy whose main calling is baking and every time I see the poor kid, I'm terrified for him.  "Oh God, it's HotPie, the decent and kind, well we know what that usually bodes...it's bodes inventively and horribly dead.  Get off the screen, HotPie!! It's the only way you'll live!"   

But it also just about broke my heart to have him tell Arya "Friends don't pay."   Arya and the concept of friendship, it must seem like something from a forgotten life.  When Arya announced that she was Arya Stark and she was going home, I think it was meant to imply to finish up her Stark business.   She doesn't think she has anyone to go home to.  

So I was momentarily all "HELL YEAH, a reunion with Jon!"  but of course, he's off to have some really uncomfortable sexual tension with someone we all know is a blood relative instead.  

35 minutes ago, screamin said:

It may well have been the death of Lady Crane and the Waif and the House of Black and White being responsible for her death that did that - a replay of the hard lessons she's already learned, namely "Care for somebody and they'll die", as well as "Trust in something and it'll fail you or double-cross you and try to destroy you."

"Maybe I'll just keep my emotional distance" underlying theme for a person's psyche.  That would tend to be a normal reaction to "hey if I like someone, they end up dead either by my hand or someone else's and it's always horrible.  No one I care about has the 'die fat and happy, surrounded by grandchildren' as a behavioral conditioning device.    

Edited July 24, 2017 by stillshimpy

[benteen]

I can see the explosion of the Great Sept as having finished off the Faith Militant and made the smallfolk give up in fear.  But I can't imagine blowing up the Great Sept, along with the High Septon (and taking House Tyrell with it) would make a lot of the great Lords happy, especially the religious ones.  If Cersei had a real army behind her (or three dragons) then yes, I can see a lot more of the Lords meekly surrendering.  But she doesn't and that makes it hard to believe that there wouldn't be a more full scale revolt around Westeros against her. 

That's one thing that I acknowledge doesn't make sense.  Cersei has literally nothing to hold her empire together with.  Unless somehow she is using the wildfire as her WMD and even in this episoe, she doesn't threaten the remaining Lords.  She actually rationally reasons with them.

Edited July 24, 2017 by benteen

[Oscirus]

1 hour ago, Francie said:

Robert's Rebellion didn't happen just because of the mad king. It happened because Robert was pissed that, in his mind, Rhaegar kidnapped his intended.  Plenty of houses, about half the realm, stayed on the Targaryen side of Robert's Rebellion. It wasn't until they were quashed that they accepted Robert as the new ruler.

Robert didn't even call his banners until Aerys came after him. If anything, Robert was a bit too reasonable about everything given what he thought happened.

[FnkyChkn34]

4 minutes ago, benteen said:

I can see the explosion of the Great Sept as having finished off the Faith Militant and made the smallfolk give up in fear.  But I can't imagine blowing up the Sept (and taking House Tyrell with it) would make a lot of the great Lords happy, especially the religious ones.  If Cersei had a real army behind her (or three dragons) then yes, I can see a lot more of the Lords meekly surrendering.  But she doesn't and that makes it hard to believe that there wouldn't be a more full scale revolt around Westeros against her.

Maybe there is and we just don't know it yet.  Afterall, we know that only 3 "kingdoms" support her, and one is her own.

[GrailKing]

13 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Does he even know that she's still alive? Jon might tell him when he arrives, but at the current time, these guys know nothing about the North other than Jon being king.

At the moment I think he just knew she escaped and possibly alive, with his talk with Jamie in the cell.

[Oscirus]

48 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

I was glad Tyrion brought up Myrcella and I wish he had thrown one of the pieces on the map at her head for that barb about wishing Oberyn hadn't died defending him. Was she there? Did she know Oberyn at all? Does she realize no one twisted his arm into championing Tyrion and that he entered single-combat because he wanted to avenge his sister's horrific death and her children's? I don't even understand how that's her reply. Myrcella did nothing wrong, and Trystane was Oberyn's blood. 

I love the way Dany shut that shit down by basically saying "next time you talk to my hand, you betta put some respect behind that."

Spoiler

Easy to see why Tyrion winds up falling for her. 

[stillshimpy]

12 hours ago, Cherpumple said:

But doesn't cutting off supply routes and besieging Kings Landing have the potential to kill many civilians too (by starvation rather than incineration)? Not to mention all the poor folk around Casterly Rock that will soon be at the mercy of the Dothraki/Unsullied? Neither plan looks particularly merciful to the common folk.

Yeah, as a plan, it stinks and exists to be in direct contrast to Varys "somebody has to give a fuck about the people because you all kind of historically and traditionally suck at it."  Great.   So the citizens of King's Landing can just be like Moscow under siege and eat each other?  Cersei better hope that the dead can't rise South of the Wall because King's Landing is already positive stuffed to the gills with dead people, is going to have a lot of starving people soon. 

Or not, as the great battle of "Did you ever think about posting a fucking lookout?  Because I think I've found a slight flaw in your battle strategy, Yara/Asha.  How'd you let that sneak up on you??"  seemed to be about restoring King's Landings supply lines since Cersei's plan was ...typical of Cersei in how long it was likely to solve any problems before creating massive new ones.  Nice of Euron to stealth his way (in a giant ship that you'd think wouldn't be able to just suddenly fucking be there) to a solution for her.  I think he must have sailed through a plot hole to get right up on her shiply business like that. 

Also, I raise a fist in solidarity to the person pointing out that GRRM clearly didn't do a lot of research into what it would medically mean to have a bunch of soldiers castrated (I'm just going with castrated because I really am not interested in dwelling too much).  

[Haleth]

Are the Unsullied and Dothraki camped on Dragonstone Island?  Are they stranded there now without Yara's ships?  

[RedHawk]

So how awkward was that "prince who was promised", um er well Khalessi of 1,000 Names, "that word in High Valerian has no gender, so chill, it actually could be the princess who was promised, so it still might mean YOU!" 

Why not use "person who was promised" if you want to get all gender-neutral and stuff and keep the alliteration going? The whole use of "prince" and "princess" seems silly anyway. That entire scene took me so out of the show for several minutes, and it seemed like a re-work of the story or something. I wish the Red Woman and her prophesies would just get burned to ashes already. Can't wait for her demise, if not by dragons and fire, then by the hand of Ser Davos.

[Oscirus]

Just now, Haleth said:

Are the Unsullied and Dothraki camped on Dragonstone Island?  Are they stranded there now without Yara's ships?  

I assume some ships were left behind to transport the unsullied to Casterly Rock

[ChromaKelly]

56 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

Ellaria was sitting there watching it.  She saw how the whole thing played out, which is why nothing about the entire stupid Dorne story as presented has made sense.  She knew Oberyn volunteered to stand as Tyrion's champion.  She saw him strutting around the arena doing his best Inigo Montoya impression when he had the Mountain on the ground instead of finishing him off first.  Yet they've acted like the Lannisters were somehow responsible for the decisions he made and decided that murdering the legitimate head and heir of Oberyn's house was the correct response to it.

Yes, this is bugging the crap out of me. They are skewing the narrative to be that the Lannisters killed Oberyn and the Dornish want revenge, when really, he went and got himself killed.

[Hecate7]

2 hours ago, screamin said:

I think Baratheon blood is the key here.

There is no Baratheon blood anywhere on the planet. It's all gone, except Gendry, and nobody knows he exists.

[Oscirus]

5 minutes ago, ChromaKelly said:

Yes, this is bugging the crap out of me. They are skewing the narrative to be that the Lannisters killed Oberyn and the Dornish want revenge, when really, he went and got himself killed.

I believe it's more a case of Ellaria not giving a fuck. She wants revenge for anybody even remotely responsible for Oberon's death, The narrative being that she's so filled with hate that she's willing to do anything to anybody to ensure that she gets it.

[SimoneS]

6 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

There is no Baratheon blood anywhere on the planet. It's all gone, except Gendry, and nobody knows he exists.

Melisandre and Davos know that Gendry is Robert's son. 

[MrWhyt]

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

Robert has one living son, Gendry. 

that we know about