S07.E02: Stormborn

[Cherpumple]

But doesn't cutting off supply routes and besieging Kings Landing have the potential to kill many civilians too (by starvation rather than incineration)? Not to mention all the poor folk around Casterly Rock that will soon be at the mercy of the Dothraki/Unsullied? Neither plan looks particularly merciful to the common folk.

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, Oscirus said:

His birds didn't even know Jon was the king of the North. I doubt they'd know about something as recent as Euron.

Yeah, I forgot that part.

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

Jon slamming LF was EVERYTHING.

NYMERIA!

That Sam and Jorah scene though... disgusting... yet awesome; love me some rule-breaking Sam action.

Now please excuse me while I go cheer-vomit. 

Yes, but he painted a bigger target on his back, Jon needs to remember, he stands in the way of LF, he's possibly last male Stark which means LF won't let him last long; so from last weeks lines:  "want me to be smarter I should listen to you;" "is that so terrible?"

Not exact words, but the jest of it is close enough.

Yes Jon listen to Sansa.

[paramitch]

I liked this episode and the real sense of forward plot momentum we got.

I was moved by Arya's scene with Nymeria, but the "It's not you" was a clumsy and badly written attempt at a callback to a moment six seasons ago. I didn't understand it until I had it explained by the showrunners, and that's never good. As others have commented, I would have preferred something instead along the lines of "That's not you anymore. Or me either." etc. 

Although it made me really sad, because I feel like the direwolves are so vital to the Starks. To a degree, I hate seeing Nymeria and Arya separated because part of me believes Nymeria is connected to Arya's soul, and that if they are not together, a part of Arya herself will always be divided.

I was heartbroken at the outcome for Theon and Yara. The irony is, Theon did the right thing -- if he had made a move on Euron, he simply would have slit Yara's throat and taken Theon as the necessary royal hostage instead. By leaping overboard, I would argue that Theon saved (however temporarily) Yara's life. (I really hope she makes it through this somehow, darn it...)

3 hours ago, mac123x said:

Qyburn was hinting at some great new weapon to use against the dragons, and I thought "oh shit, he's got some voodoo black magic up his sleeve".  Nope, he's just invented the  ballista.  Which books readers will know is nothing new -- the Dornish kiled Meraxes (and Queen Rhaenys) with a scorpion bolt through the eye 300 years ago.  I also scoffed at the lack of physics the writers displayed - Cercei shot the ballista at the dragon skull from about 30 feet away on a flat tragectory, and it barely penetrated.  That weapon isn't going to do shit when shooting 100 feet, UP, at a living dragon that has armor.  Of course, the show will have something stupid, like a dragon will land and just the right place for Cercei to unleash a shitload of those weapons at close range.

Great points all, and that bothered me too. I kept wondering where they kept the ballistas, then Qyburn shows the "new design" to Cersei and I rolled my eyes. 

3 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Of all the eunuchs, Theon looks to have had the worst night

Still, I'm not sure what else he could do

This. He had zero chance of doing anything in that situation except dying.

3 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

One thing I dislike so much in an otherwise great start to the season is how they've written Jaime. Back to being Cersei's little lapdog. Book Jaime was so much more complex and for awhile the show followed that complexity. He had a very dark side yes (after all he threw Bran out of a tower) but his relationships with Tyrion and Brienne were humanizing. Now he's just Cersei's bitch on the show. I hope they can develop him further but I doubt it considering the multitude of storylines the show now has and the show's investment in Cersei as a central character.

This is my one big problem with the show vs. books (I'm much more a fan of the show overall). For some reason, the showrunners've absolutely and consistently torched Jaime's redemption arc and evolution as a character, and it's maddening and such a shame.

3 hours ago, Constantinople said:

By the Seven Sam!

Could you spare some milk of the poppy for your patient?

No kidding! Especially since we know they're in the healing center of the kingdom -- it sure seems like Sam could have acquired some. And poor Jorah. But I'm a fan of anything if it will possibly save his life. Although I wasn't thrilled with more gooshy closeups (or yucky/cheap smash cut to the spoon breaking the pie crust).

3 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

And maybe it was some wasted time between Grey Worm and Missandei, but they sure are pretty people.  The more I see of Jacob Anderson, the better.

I didn't think it was wasted, and I appreciated the moment between two characters I care about (much less, two of the few characters of color in the story).

I thought it was a lovely and sensitive scene, although I was slightly irked that Missandei's robe (like those of so many women on the show) seemed to have been designed for fastest possible nakedness -- a few strings in the bodice, and boom. I did like that Grey Worm was also naked, equalizing the moment between them, and I appreciated the real emotion when she asked to see him, no matter how damaged he was. Both actors played it beautifully.

3 hours ago, riprock said:

Also, not buying that Yara should think that Theon's a coward for swimming away. Euron had a knife to her throat, he'd taken over the ship, and the fleet is burning. How is Theon supposed to save her? The battle's already lost.

I agree, although I could buy that Yara -- being the fierce fighter she is -- would've simply wanted him to die fighting. She wouldn't be able to understand that he wouldn't be able to attack. I thought it was a sad echo of her comment earlier to Ellaria ('he's my protector"), when of course, there was absolutely nothing he could do there.

Although part of me did feel especially bad for poor Yara -- here she thinks she's going to get a few drinks and sexytimes, then suddenly the world turns upside down and in scant minutes, she's lost her fleet, her family, and her freedom.

I'm cautiously excited for Jon to finally meet and confront Dany (and am glad my darling Onion Knight will be there), but I'm definitely dreading how things will go at Winterfell under Sansa with Littlefinger hissing into her ear. I did love Jon publicly supporting Sansa as regent, but yet again, I wish Jon held his councils and discussions in private. The way he holds them in public forum just feels unwise and insecure to me. I do not expect things to go well for Sansa in his absence.

Edited July 24, 2017 by paramitch
typo

[Shimmergloom]

7 minutes ago, Cherpumple said:

But doesn't cutting off supply routes and besieging Kings Landing have the potential to kill many civilians too (by starvation rather than incineration)? Not to mention all the poor folk around Casterly Rock that will soon be at the mercy of the Dothraki/Unsullied? Neither plan looks particularly merciful to the common folk.

The last time the people of King's Landing were starving though, they rioted and nearly killed Joffery.  If Cersei doesn't surrender, I don't think she can hold back the citizens from storming the gates themselves and letting the Tyrell and Dornish armies inside.

A quick read here shows that Sieges are not meant to be long term.  So just because Dany intends to lay siege to King's Landing, it doesn't mean she intends for it to last for months like it did at Storm's End.  It's advantageous for her and her armies for it to be over as quickly as possible and a quick siege would therefore incur fewer deaths on the populace.

http://www.lordsandladies.org/siege-warfare.htm

[Minneapple]

Upon rewatch:

I kept waiting for Tyrion to tell Daenerys, "Oh yeah and btw Jon Snow is my brother-in-law." 

God, Baelish is SO CREEPY. Why the FUCK would you go telling a guy that you're in love with his sister the way you loved her mother? Shudder. Every time Baelish talks I feel like I should take a shower.

The scene with Arya and Nymeria just made me wish the wolves had been a bigger part of the show the way they are in the books. Bang-up job by Maisie Williams in that scene.

The Dany plot is such a mess. She made plans to cross the sea with a giant fleet and the Dothraki horde, stood on that damn ship while crossing the sea and meantime didn't come up with a proper plan to invade King's Landing and take the throne? Her main plan appears to be "I have dragons." But then she doesn't want to burn people or rule through fear. So then they come up with a half-baked plan and it gets mucked up because nobody knows that Euron has a giant fleet of a billion ships and everyone was asleep while the giant fleet attacked in the night.

No endless Sansa vs. Jon debate this week? I'm almost sad. Wait. No. I'm not.

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Wow, that Nymeria scene was sad. But it made sense. Arya is so different from when Nymeria knew her. I think it's just symbolic of how maybe Arya really CAN'T go home anymore. Her journey has been too dark. I hope I'm wrong.

Theon will always be a little shit. 

I wish Jon had killed LF right then and there. He is so gross. 

And Sam cutting off Jorah's greyscale was gross. But Sam is banging gilly so all is not bad in his life.

Theon has PTSD, he was fighting well until he saw an ear being cut off and it threw him back in Ramsey's grasp.

Sansa is showing signs too, not wanting Jon to go South, she tells him on one hand, no one can protect her but, on the other she knows he would, difference right now Sansa does have Breienne  and Pod to help her.

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, Francie said:

Arya broke my heart. Both with Hot Pie and with Nymeria. Her lack of manners, wiping her hand over her mouth constantly, shows she is becoming as wild as Nymeria is.  I fear that Winterfell is not going to feel like home to her.

Euron is a crazy MF and this season's big bad. But he took out the two most annoying sand snakes. I'm so conflicted.  No wait, I'm not. I'm happy those sand snakes are gone.  Live by the whip, die by ... 

Tyrion's catty aside to Ellaria was underwhelming. Tyrion, you sent Myrcella to Dorne. You bear some of the responsibility for her death.  But you're just going to snipe at the woman who killed her?  The least you can do is have Dany sic a dragon on her. 

Loved seeing Diana Rigg. 

The rest was blah. Other than the last seven minutes, the season really starts next week. 

Hot Pie - What happen to you Arry , WF will be her last chance for a pack, hopefully Sansa,and Bran and maybe Brienne can bring her back.

Many people liked her for badassery but look at the cost to her.

Most child soldiers don't fare well.

[Cherpumple]

10 minutes ago, Shimmergloom said:

A quick read here shows that Sieges are not meant to be long term.  So just because Dany intends to lay siege to King's Landing, it doesn't mean she intends for it to last for months like it did at Storm's End.  It's advantageous for her and her armies for it to be over as quickly as possible and a quick siege would therefore incur fewer deaths on the populace.

Ideally, yes. But sieges can be very unpredictable, especially with someone as unstable and ruthless as Cersei in charge of the besieged city. And as long as Dany's crew blocks the food supply route from the south, there could be devastating consequences for people in a much larger area than Kings Landing. Any way you slice it, the common folk are once again going to suffer because of the hubris of a few nobles.

I agree with people who are longing for Littlefinger to just die already. Of course I've always hated him, but now we are FINALLY moving towards the big picture Final Battle, and his bullshit political machinations just seem petty and sad rather than menacing. We need to be past that stuff, and on to the real threats to the realm!

[GrailKing]

4 hours ago, Fairlily26 said:

I got what I wanted and I suppose the answer to my question. Grey Worn is in fact a eunuch. He's also a good sport since he made sure Missandei got hers, so to speak. That was beautifully done by the actors.

Man, that fight scene was brutal, and the fact that "Reek" couldn't save his sister was heart breaking.

Is Arya seriously gonna miss seeing Jon again?! Damn. It was nice seeing her friend again though.

And kudos to Sam for helping Jorah. That was gross and interesting like YouTube. 

I think he has the pillar, by the way Missandei acted, of course she liked the Lord's Kiss also.

[that one guy]

4 minutes ago, Cherpumple said:

24 minutes ago, Shimmergloom said:

A quick read here shows that Sieges are not meant to be long term.  So just because Dany intends to lay siege to King's Landing, it doesn't mean she intends for it to last for months like it did at Storm's End.  It's advantageous for her and her armies for it to be over as quickly as possible and a quick siege would therefore incur fewer deaths on the populace.

Ideally, yes. But sieges can be very unpredictable, especially with someone as unstable and ruthless as Cersei in charge of the besieged city. And as long as Dany's crew blocks the food supply route from the south, there could be devastating consequences for people in a much larger area than Kings Landing. Any way you slice it, the common folk are once again going to suffer because of the hubris of a few nobles.

In practice, in the pre-gunpowder era, it was a race to see who ran out of food first. Often the besieging army ran out of supplies before the besieged, The struggle for the allegiance of the Reach is key here. They have the food, as Jaime pointed out last week. So, this is where Tarly is key. If the Reach backs Olenna, Cersei's done for. If she can break the siege with the help of the Reach, she can survive. Tyrion's right, the loyalty of the Houses is key. All of this adds up to - Jon needs dragonglass, Dany needs allies and a Westerosi husband. If they're not married within three episodes I'll be a Targaryen's uncle.

[anamika]

45 minutes ago, Cherpumple said:

But doesn't cutting off supply routes and besieging Kings Landing have the potential to kill many civilians too (by starvation rather than incineration)? Not to mention all the poor folk around Casterly Rock that will soon be at the mercy of the Dothraki/Unsullied? Neither plan looks particularly merciful to the common folk.

Look, war is ugly. The war of the five kings ravaged the riverlands - the fourth book, A feast for Crows - was pretty much about the effects of war on the common folk. We also see this through Arya's POV as she travels through the war ravaged lands.

Which is why, as much as Tywin's Red Wedding was treachery and betrayal, he also managed to end the war with as little loss of life as possible.

There is no easy way by which Dany can conquer the Seven Kingdoms without the common folk being affected.

She needs to draw out the Lannister army into battle like the Battle of the Bastards. That way could be her path to victory with her Unsullied, Dothraki and Dragons. Or go for the siege. Either way, she has lost for now, because Yara Greyjoy did not notice a huge fucking ship coming their way or the Dragons should have been around as escort.

Edited July 24, 2017 by anamika

[Oscirus]

1 minute ago, anamika said:

the Dragons should have been around as escort.

Would the dragons even listen to Dany? They'll protect her, but other then tell them to burn or eat people, we haven't seen her giving them commands like escort, etc. If anything, these cats should've been paying attention and not playing grab ass down below.

[GrailKing]

4 hours ago, mac123x said:

Two Sand Snakes dead!  It's not a trifecta, but we shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth.  I'm guessing that Yara and Ellaria are the "gift" Euron is going to give to Cercei.  Good choice, considering Ellaria poisoned Myrcella.

 

I was hoping Bran would arrive in Winterfell before Jon headed south.  "Hello Queen Danerys, or should I call you Auntie?"  Guess not, so now we get to see more of Wormtongue Littlefinger whispering poison in Sansa's ear.  I'm bored of Littlefinger and wish they'd kill him already.

 

Nymeria's cameo was (sorry to say) very fan-servicey.  Though really cool, glad she's got a pack to run with.  I'm also glad Arya turned around to head back to Winterfell, though I wonder if she'll catch up to the Hound and company.  Everyone on this show seems to be travelling at the speed of the plot.

 

I could have done without the loooooong sex scene and the even looooonger Samwell of York, Medieval Barber scene.

I don't think we can call it fan service of Arya and Nymeria connecting, plenty of foreshadowing given in book and from season one.

I also can't understand how people think GW & M scenes isn't relevant it's part of  the human story since B4 Neanderthals ;  people find love, people have sex, people have babies, it's life, it's hope,it's sadness, it's tragic; it's right for the story.

[TwistedandBored]

I loved Dany and Varys conversation. She needed to figure out his deal and make sure they understood one another going forward. I also liked Dany listened to her counsel. However, this is gonna be short lived after this defeat by Cersei's hand and that conversation with Lady Olenna. 

Loved that Arya is heading home. I am glad she got to reunite with Nymeria and Hot Pie along the way. 

Jon and Sansa are amusing specially with how quick Sansa was to agree with Jon leaving once she realized she will be ruling The North. 

 

I just can't wait for Jon, Tyrion, and Dany to be in the same room. Now that will be epic. 

[GrailKing]

4 hours ago, anamika said:

Also, Sansa in charge of the North? The North is in trouble! But I guess there is no one else as Jon put it. If only Bran had got there. By the way what's taking Bran so long to get there?

They are rolling in her Vale arc ( where she runs it rather well) into WF, when Bran arrives I think she be happy, because he's done it before, but Bran will ( like Jon ) be concentrating on the WW so she will need to run the North.

This will make her or brake her.

[anamika]

12 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Would the dragons even listen to Dany? They'll protect her, but other then tell them to burn or eat people, we haven't seen her giving them commands like escort, etc. If anything, these cats should've been paying attention and not playing grab ass down below.

She should go with them. That's the disadvantage with the dragons. She can't send them off by themselves. She has to be present with them. So yeah, that's probably hard to do because those ships are going so slowly - but they did travel with her ships from Essos.

But, yes - Yara should have been more vigilant. For being a sea- faring folk it's embarrassing that she could blindsided by that attack.

[GrailKing]

4 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Well, Tyrion may not have LOVED the idea --

Tyrion, wants nothing more than Casterly Rock !, big fu to daddy and sissy.

[TwistedandBored]

Also, those Dragons better know how to zig zag/ flip/dodge whatever during the battle scenes. After all this hype about Dragons, I don't want them getting punked like Rickon. 

[GrailKing]

4 hours ago, FemmyV said:

GRRM: "You don't hang a pack of wolves on the wall and not use them." If not in the show, then they will appear and be useful in the future books. If they ever come out.

 

Ghost is saving himself for his season's close up.

I hope what Aiden mentioned once, is true; saw no leaks on it though.

let's just say he gets very winded.

[Oscirus]

Another interesting thing is the Gender flips. Other then Euron, the males seem to be fairly level headed while the females are the blood thirty one ( before people respond, I get it, there are exceptions but for the most part).

[ElizaD]

Despite all the people Arya has killed, I feel that Maisie shows such warmth and emotion that I just can't see her as an irrevocably damaged murderer.

Alfie is another actor with an expressive face. Even though I never end up talking about Theon during the pre-season speculation, once Alfie is onscreen I just keep on thinking that he's one of the best younger actors in the cast, maybe the very best. He makes me go from not caring about Theon to finding his inner struggle an episode highlight.

It would have been better if the show never made such mistakes with the Sand Snakes, but they aren't good in the books either. While this was a little clumsy I respect the show for admitting that their plot didn't work out and sacrificing it in an effort to do what they can to improve Euron (it's working for me) and make Dany's army look like it actually faces a challenge.

The Grey Worm/Missandei scene doesn't seem to be a big favorite, but the show has done more than the books to make me care about the Essosi characters and see them as real human beings with hopes of their own rather than only as Dany's crew of inconsequential sidekicks.

[Gertrude]

2 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

I recall a scene in which Gendry and Mel compared notes about their impoverished childhoods.  The Kings Landing specialty "a bowl of brown" was mentioned.  But I don't recall her mentioning being a slave.

That scene was Gendry and Davos (after mel and the leeches). In the books we have strong indications that Mel was a slave. Others have said it's been mentioned in the show, but I didn't remember it.

1 hour ago, that one guy said:

Why does he need testosterone? Let's just accept Grey Worm as a trans character or whatever he is. I like him, and selfishly and shallowly, Missandei is the character I most want to see naked because Nathalie Emmanuel goddamn goddamn goddamn. Anyway I don't think they're rushing anything since this has been simmering for several seasons now. There may be no way to satisfy him, but he can certainly do something for her, Jon Snow style . . .

Testosterone is the main driver for male sex drive. If GW doesn't have his testicles, then he wouldn't have the sexual passion he displayed while kissing Missandei. I'm far from an expert here and I'm probably missing something, but if I am unsure about it, I'm guessing I was not the only one. I'd like them to have at least addressed it. And by the way, genital mutilation and transgender aren't even close to the same thing, so watch that.

My objection is not that they rushed it, it's how they handled it. It was treated just like a traditional love story culminating in sexy times. They only addressed it in the shallowest way possible when I think they had the chance to make this much more interesting and different that what we normally see. I agree that he can't enjoy sex as most men know it, but he still has human needs and a desire for intimacy and contact. They didn't even touch on what he hopes to get from this physical relationship. Like I said, they could have seeded a few lines in the past seasons about how the Unsullied still crave contact and intimacy, even if it's not sexual for them. Then again, your desire to see Missandei naked is probably what was motivating them in that scene rather than good or interesting writing.

eta: in response to the above post, I don't dislike the love story between M and GW, nor did I particularly dislike the scene. I was disappointed that it much like any other love scene we see on TV.

Edited July 24, 2017 by Gertrude

[GrailKing]

4 hours ago, Minneapple said:

No one knew Euron's fleet was done and headed for King's Landing, no one knew that Jon was king in the north, Yara's entire fleet was asleep (WTF?)...and yet, 30 seconds after Sansa arrived at the wall last season, Ramsey had sent a letter demanding she be returned. The writing on this show sometimes, man. How the hell do you spent a billion dollars on all your CGI dragons and then write a 50-cent script?

But, I will forgive D&D a lot if they write a good Sansa/Arya reunion. 

After seeing enough about not hearing about Jon and Sansa taking the North, they just landed umm a few hours ago, they been on ship weeks maybe, no time yet for Varys to call his birds so it could be plausable.

Euron's ship : well black ship, black sails, they see him but would be too late to react.

Devil's advocate here writer could hint some things yet didn't.

[rozen]

I think Sansa is perfectly capable of running the North. She just tends towards a more conservative strategy than Jon, and frankly the lord of the North have pretty much always agreed with her before Jon overrules. I'm excited to see her get to work. I imagine she will also establish a  council and freaking listen to them, instead of making decisions based on which way her piss flew that morning. 

I think Littlefinger's goal was to throw Jon off as much as possible before he sails off to meet Dany. He reminded Jon that he's leaving his dear baby sister in the hands of a lecherous traitor that Jon owes his life too. Littlefinger will only rise in chaos, if the Lannister's are tidily disposed of by Dany then he has no ladder to climb higher than he already is. He's trying to desperately sow as much instability as he can so Varys can't sail in and crush all his plans. 

I imagine Jon will unilaterally decide to marry Dany, and then Sansa will unilaterally decide to marry LF, and they'll both reunite and be hellishly pissed with each other. 

I wonder if the 'valonquar' (sp?) thing could also be a mis-translation? Arya is the little sister, after all. 

At first I was really made because Yara's fleet mad such a poor showing it made her seem incompetent. But I guess it makes sense in the context of Yara running the Iron Fleet and mostly raiding the coasts. Euron was forced to learn how to sail and ambush further out at sea, which is what Yara had to do to ferry back and forth from Dorne. Her man-to-man combat was epic, though. Poor Theon. 

I'm pretty sure Ellaria is fully capable of killing herself, if necessary, so I doubt anyone is going to hold her long. Euron is very...Mountain-esque in his beserker fighting style. I think he's actually the perfect husband for Cersei, I've always felt like she's had a thing for The Mountain (maybe dipped on the side when Jamie was away). 

[GrailKing]

4 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

I was handling it fine until they did the quick cut to the crusty top of a pot pie in the tavern.  Not cool, show runners.  Not cool.

Yet in a way, I laughed my ass off, thinking of the reactions to come.

[Gertrude]

By the way, shouldn't news that a Targaryen Queen has landed with dragons make the Knights of the Vale a little nervous? Royce said you couldn't trust a Targaryen, after all. They're just ok with leaving the Vale unprotected and chilling in the North because there are dead things? Dead things that exist, trust me, they exist and they are coming. Really they are. Dragons are a known thing and people believe in them. So if I were Royce, I'd be telling Jon 'Hey, it was fun, but I left the stove on and have to get home, Call me sometime, k?'

Oh that's right, Littlefinger has to be with Sansa in the North. Good job writers, good job. They've completely gutted LF as a scary guy now that he has no power base to weave his webs from. He's another character they've completely bungled, but since I don't like him, I care less and often forget about it til he does something creepy and I wonder, 'why is he still hanging around again?'

Edited July 24, 2017 by Gertrude

[GrailKing]

4 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

I wish he'd spoken privately to Sansa before he left. Just seems wrong to leave Littlefinger angry and alone with her.

Yeah, she didn't notice LF rubbing his throat, she was too concentrated on Jon leaving.

[GrailKing]

4 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Back in S3 or S4 Daenerys asked Missandei this question. Missandei said she didn't know, which seems unlikely given that she worked for the masters who raised and trained the Unsullied

My guess watching Missandei's face as GW went between her legs pelvis to pelvis; he had a pillar. 

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, magdalene said:

I don't care that Ellaria will probably be killed by Cersei.  I lost all sympathy for Ellaria when she killed the totally innocent and sweet-natured Myrcella just for being a Lannister. As for The Sand Snakes, they were all lame and none of the actors playing them impressed me with talent or charisma. Good riddance.

I agree, but I still don't give Cersei two shits.  At 13 she throws her friend down a well, and in show her boy her beautiful boy was a traitor  what a heartless bitch.

Ahhhhh I feel better now.

[KaleyFirefly]

4 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Dickon Tarly - can I see some more of him please?  Thank you.  

And maybe it was some wasted time between Grey Worm and Missandei, but they sure are pretty people.  The more I see of Jacob Anderson, the better.

Dickon Tarly actor - He's that hot dude from "Black Sails." 

Agreed on the pretty people nude scene. JA does have a nice butt.

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, TwistedandBored said:

Also, those Dragons better know how to zig zag/ flip/dodge whatever during the battle scenes. After all this hype about Dragons, I don't want them getting punked like Rickon. 

Tyrion better get a move on with that saddle maker.

[AuntieMame]

Regarding Grey Worm and Missandei, I've always liked their love story. The actor and actress are also beautiful people. I agree with the poster above though who thinks more should have been done with the emotional and psychological trauma of the mutilation. Martin was always clear that the Unsullied lost both root and stem and that they still needed love and craved affection. 

This brings me to the fact that the Unsullied have always been illogical to me. Especially, especially as a feared fighting force. Testosterone and its biochemical precursors and derivatives does a lot more than manage sexual desire. The difference in muscle to fat ratio? Testosterone. Aggression? At least partially testosterone. Muscle mass and upper body strength? Testosterone Again. Throughout history eunuchs were known to lose muscle, gain weight and lose secondary sex characteristics. Castration is Also known to diminish aggression. I always wondered exactly why Martin thought that this was a logical way to build a universally feared army. Varys  is much more representative of what a eunuch is actually like. And Martin puts both in the same story! 

Then there is the medical recovery from loss of the penis. Loss of testicles is not that big of a deal medically or surgically. But we are in a medieval world. Cauterization is the main way to close a huge wound with serious ingress to the inside of the body. So, cauterize the bloody stump and how do these guys pee? The complete vacation from logic and reality in the creation of the Unsullied has bothered me for years. Martin wanted to shock us with the emotional, psychological and physical cruelty of the formation of an Unsullied soldier. And he did, but in reality the Unsullied wouldn't be a feared, muscle bound legion of terror; they would be a platoon of Theons. 

The scene between Missandei and GW was just one more problem with the whole concept of the Unsullied. Come to think of it, what is Martin's obsession with relieving men of their manhood? Three major supporting characters and an entire "army"? 

I enjoyed the episode while watching it. I do have to just ignore many of the inconsistencies in planning, character and world building.

During Dany's  war council the questionable tactics were a giant huh? I'm not sure there is really a soft sell on invasion and conquest other than kill as few innocents possible and restore order, law and prosperity asap. The T plan prolongs things and for a very questionable gain tactically and strategically. 

I am so glad that Arya is turning North and can't wait to see the Stark sisters reunite and appreciate each other. 

Loved seeing LF slammed against the wall but the poster upthread was right. This isn't how necessary but strained alliances with untrustworthy partners are managed. 

Edited July 24, 2017 by AuntieMame
Auto correct craziness and a little tightening.

[Cherpumple]

1 hour ago, ElizaD said:

The Grey Worm/Missandei scene doesn't seem to be a big favorite, but the show has done more than the books to make me care about the Essosi characters and see them as real human beings with hopes of their own rather than only as Dany's crew of inconsequential sidekicks.

Agreed. I missed Strong Belwas at first, but I've barely thought about him since season 3, and haven't missed any of the other Essosi at all. Even when reading I could barely tell Dany's advisors apart, thanks to their bland personalities and unpronounceable names. I have really liked the Grey Worm/Missandei relationship in the show, and will be sad to go back to their book counterparts where they have no meaningful interactions and she is still a young child. I'm glad that they finally made their relationship physical, but agree that it should have been more interesting and different than your standard one kiss/strip/full-on sex sequence that any other couple would do. 

[AuntieMame]

Did anyone else find it strange that nobody mentioned that Sansa is still married to Tyrion? LF hand waved her marriage to Tyrion when he sold her to the Boltons with the assumption that Sansa was widowed. Her marriage to Ramsay was technically bigamy and Ramsay is dead besides but I think by the laws of Westeros Sansa is still legally married to Tyrion. Just funny it wasn't mentioned during the conversation on the balcony. 

I know the seven kingdoms have bigger fish to fry what with internal strife, invasion, winter and no appreciable stockpiles, wight armies and the sept a pile of smoldering ruins but marriage alliances are a big deal in this world. Tyrion alive and in Westeros has serious implications for Sansa. Just me? 

[Cherpumple]

2 minutes ago, AuntieMame said:

Did anyone else find it strange that nobody mentioned that Sansa is still married to Tyrion?

Yes! Although I do remember LF telling Sansa that since the marriage was not consummated it was no longer legally binding, so maybe all the characters in the show (as opposed to the book) are operating on the premise that the marriage has basically been de facto annulled. I definitely thought it was weird that Jon just said "you know Tyrion best" with neither one of them making a direct reference to the marriage. Hopefully the actual legal status of their union will become clear when Jon and Tyrion meet.

[Shimmergloom]

Not only was Sansa and Tyrion's wedding not consummated, but since this is the book thread, you know from what the Maester told Bran about Lady Hornwood's forced marriage to Ramsay, that a marriage by sword point was no marriage.  So Sansa's forced marriage to Tyrion is not legally binding, even if it was consummated.

[anamika]

From Bryan Cogman on Twitter "FYI... We shot a Jon/Ghost scene. Didn't make it in. I tried! Thx for watching, everybody. #Stormborn"

Ugh! I hope all these cut scenes make it into the extras.

Edited July 24, 2017 by anamika

[SimoneS]

2 hours ago, AuntieMame said:

Regarding Grey Worm and Missandei, I've always liked their love story. The actor and actress are also beautiful people. I agree with the poster above though who thinks more should have been done with the emotional and psychological trauma of the mutilation. Martin was always clear that the Unsullied lost both root and stem and that they still needed love and craved affection. 

This brings me to the fact that the Unsullied have always been illogical to me. Especially, especially as a feared fighting force. Testosterone and its biochemical precursors and derivatives does a lot more than manage sexual desire. The difference in muscle to fat ratio? Testosterone. Aggression? At least partially testosterone. Muscle mass and upper body strength? Testosterone Again. Throughout history eunuchs were known to lose muscle, gain weight and lose secondary sex characteristics. Castration is Also known to diminish aggression. I always wondered exactly why Martin thought that this was a logical way to build a universally feared army. Varys  is much more representative of what a eunuch is actually like. And Martin puts both in the same story! 

Then there is the medical recovery from loss of the penis. Loss of testicles is not that big of a deal medically or surgically. But we are in a medieval world. Cauterization is the main way to close a huge wound with serious ingress to the inside of the body. So, cauterize the bloody stump and how do these guys pee? The complete vacation from logic and reality in the creation of the Unsullied has bothered me for years. Martin wanted to shock us with the emotional, psychological and physical cruelty of the formation of an Unsullied soldier. And he did, but in reality the Unsullied wouldn't be a feared, muscle bound legion of terror; they would be a platoon of Theons. 

The scene between Missandei and GW was just one more problem with the whole concept of the Unsullied. Come to think of it, what is Martin's obsession with relieving men of their manhood? Three major supporting characters and an entire "army"? 

Exactly. The Unsullied' castration is one of the many things that took me out of Martin's books and why I never really take his perspective on the story seriously as it is clear to me that he doesn't know what he is talking about.

[ParadoxLost]

I just now got it.  When Arya was talking another not browning the butter when making pies, show was talking about the Freys. ha.

[TaurusRose]

7 hours ago, paramitch said:

 

I'm cautiously excited for Jon to finally meet and confront Dany (and am glad my darling Onion Knight will be there), but I'm definitely dreading how things will go at Winterfell under Sansa with Littlefinger hissing into her ear. I did love Jon publicly supporting Sansa as regent, but yet again, I wish Jon held his councils and discussions in private. The way he holds them in public forum just feels unwise and insecure to me. I do not expect things to go well for Sansa in his absence.

Well, now Sansa will get to see that leading isn't easy and that there will always be someone unhappy about a decision you make.  It's easy to stand in the background pissing and moaning, and a whole other thing entirely to pull together a bunch of people who have their own ideas and interests at hand, and have them support your policies. As far as Jon discussing things in private, he spoke with Davos and Sansa offline, it should have been no surprise to either one of them what his final decision would be.  I'm sure Davos wasn't surprised and Sansa needs to realize that Jon isn't going to ever take the easy road.  He's always going to do what's right for the greater good.

I'm glad that Jon had no fucks to give where LF is concerned.  LF is always trying to stir the pot and undermine from within.  I can't stand him and really want him dead.  Cersei  is more of the same.  Without Qyburn playing mad scientist, Jaime being slightly more persuasive in his arguments and an ill-advised alliance with Euron, she's nothing.  I'm really looking forward to seeing the end of her smug face and bad haircut. Best scene hands down was Jon telling the lords of the North that he didn't ask to be king and why he accepted the role and Varys going head to head with Danyeras.  Best expressions during brouhahas: Tyrion trying to keep D&V from going badly, Brienne liking Jon putting Sansa in charge while he's away, and Grey Worm and Missendei getting real with each other. 

Edited July 24, 2017 by taurusrose

[penelope79]

6 hours ago, CletusMusashi said:

I'm ashamed to say that I actually almost kind of liked Littlefinger for a few seconds. When word was announced that Tyrion Lannister was working for Danaerys Targaryan and wanted to meet with Jon Snow, even Baelish forgot about plotting for a minute and just got the same almost-giggly expression that the rest of us constantly watch this show with. He might as well have been suddenly eating popcorn.

I noticed that, too!

10 hours ago, SeanC said:

Minuses:

- There are a couple of time in this episode where we get conversations that should have happened much earlier.  The Varys scene is the ultimate example of this.  Dany met Varys in Meereen, and then they sailed together for what must have been months, and she's only now remembering all this stuff?  Not to mention, I have no idea why the show decided to call attention to what an inconsistent character Varys is as a result of the show writers changing his motivations midway through.  In particular, Dany points out the utter idiocy of scheming to replace Robert with Viserys in the name of the realm, and then that's basically sidestepped in favour of his big monologue about how everything he does is for the realm.

- The Jon/Littlefinger scene.  Much as we all enjoy seeing Littlefinger get choked again, this scene doesn't make sense.  First, what is Littlefinger trying to accomplish here?  Jon is leaving, his goal is to manipulate Sansa.  Second, I'm sorry, but are we to believe that Jon has never had a real conversation with Littlefinger before this point?  They've been in the same place for what must be months, and Littlefinger, as the Lord Protector of the Vale, is the most valuable ally King Jon has (as Sansa pointed out to Brienne last episode).  Said ally being the person he slams against the wall, which is not how one goes about managing such relationships, given that Jon's whole mission of late is bringing everybody together in a huge alliance to overcome grudges and beat the White Walkers.

 

GoT is not always correct with timelines, but I can buy  that Daenerys and Varys didn't have the chance to discuss their issues earlier. As soon as he arrived to Mereen, they ran into Tyrion. Then she took that little trip with Drogon and was kept prisoner by the Dothrakis. She burnt all the khals and went back to Mereen, but Meeren was under attack. Then there was the meeting with Yara and Theon and Varys was sent to Dorne to negotiate with Ellaria and Lady Olenna. Granted,  they supposedly had plenty of time to sort out their differences while travelling to Westeros, but their confront would've been off-screen and I guess D&D wanted the audience to see it.

As for Jon and Littlefinger, I'm probably alone here, but for a moment I thought that LF was about to officially ask for Sansa's hand, before Jon almost choked him (btw, yay!): no one else had the same impression? Plus, my take on that scene is that LF also wanted to suggest Jon that he knew who is mother was. Jon didn't catch it, because he was too worried about Sansa and because he probably thought about Cat when LF said: "I love Sansa, and I loved your mother, too." But LF mentioned HIS mother, while in the crypt where Lyanna is buried: are we really supposed to believe he was talking about Cat, while few moments before he pointed out that Cat didn't love Jon? If I were Jon I would've ask: "And what do YOU know about my mother?"

Edit: I watched the scene again and LF said that he loved Sansa as he loved HER mother.  I thought he said YOUR.

I have the feeling, though, this is an information Jon will learn AFTER he falls in love with Daenerys. Which is the same reason why Bran hasn't arrived in Winterfell yet.

10 hours ago, benteen said:

Freaking exciting as hell to see Dany and Jon so close to each other.  I'm looking forward to their meeting more than anything.

I can't wait, too!

 

10 hours ago, MadMouse said:

 Oh did anyone else see Varys reaction to Mel telling what kind of man Jon was? If I didn't know better I would have thought he got a hard on. Still a little weird hearing Dany, Varys mentioning his name.

I agree, and I found weird listening to Jon mentioning Daenerys' name, too. :)

 

2 hours ago, Shimmergloom said:

Not only was Sansa and Tyrion's wedding not consummated, but since this is the book thread, you know from what the Maester told Bran about Lady Hornwood's forced marriage to Ramsay, that a marriage by sword point was no marriage.  So Sansa's forced marriage to Tyrion is not legally binding, even if it was consummated.

One could argue that even Sansa's marriage to Ramsey was forced... :)

This is the first episode where I found Euron to be actually menacing. That grin on his face when he landed on Yara's ship!

I read here and there that that was a victory for Cersei and a message for those who underestimate her, but to be fair it was just Euron's. Sure, what happen will advantage her, but it's not like attacking the Dornish and Yara's fleets was her plan from the get go. Besides, I think and hope that the Unsullied attacking Casterly Rock will be more successful, mostly because the Lannister believe Dany will go straight to KL. They don't expect to be attacked at home. It will be very interesting.

Did I mention that I can't literally wait for Jon and Daenerys to finally meet? Is it Sunday yet?

Edited July 24, 2017 by penelope79
Correction

[SeanC]

2 hours ago, AuntieMame said:

Did anyone else find it strange that nobody mentioned that Sansa is still married to Tyrion? LF hand waved her marriage to Tyrion when he sold her to the Boltons with the assumption that Sansa was widowed. Her marriage to Ramsay was technically bigamy and Ramsay is dead besides but I think by the laws of Westeros Sansa is still legally married to Tyrion. Just funny it wasn't mentioned during the conversation on the balcony. 

I know the seven kingdoms have bigger fish to fry what with internal strife, invasion, winter and no appreciable stockpiles, wight armies and the sept a pile of smoldering ruins but marriage alliances are a big deal in this world. Tyrion alive and in Westeros has serious implications for Sansa. Just me? 

Littlefinger didn't say Sansa was widowed, he said that the marriage was invalid because they never consummated it.  So Sansa and Tyrion were never actually married.

[Francie]

5 hours ago, Shimmergloom said:

A quick read here shows that Sieges are not meant to be long term

 All I know is Stannis' speech itself about how long the Storm's End siege was, was interminably long. 

"First we ate the horses. Horses are big animals, good meat. Then we ate the cats. Never liked cats. Then we ate the dogs. That was hard. Dogs are loyal. Then we ate the babies. Never liked babies.  All that crying and never being clear and getting to the point."

Not how how it went? 

[Eyes High]

9 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Alot more subtle Tyrion and Sansa action. Just saying

I'm not sure what you're referring to.

Season 7 Euron is the worst, but he's also kind of the best. Roaring with delighted laughter when Theon abandoned ship was just about the perfect reaction. Really enjoying Pilou this year.

That shot on Theon as he is frozen with fear was the usual great work from Alfie Allen. The way the battle scene was shot made it difficult to follow what was going on (Mark Mylod strikes again, I guess). I did love the bit with Euron riding the prow of his ship as it slammed down onto the deck (and crushing one of Yara's men in the process), though.

Speaking of great work this episode, I was uncomfortable during Arya's scene with Hot Pie, in a good way. She really did seem like someone who had changed and seemed subtly dangerous and menacing, even though clearly Hot Pie was never in danger from her. And then of course in the Nymeria scene Arya showed real vulnerability when Nymeria showed up. Good stuff from Maisie.

[Francie]

They just sailed together, all the way from Mereen, along the southern coast of Essos and then across the Narrow Sea. They had time. 

[dr pepper]

Well, hot Greyjoy on Greyjoy action! I know that was supposed to be another GRRM twist of the knife ending, but frankly, i was glad to see both factions getting killed. I just kept expecting Danerys to enter stage left and laugh. "You call that a flame attack? Watch this!" But she didn't, and now Tyrion is going to have rethink his kinder gentler plan for mass murder.

[Diana Berry]

Maybe Gendry will pick up Theon on his little boat.

[Drogo]

Theon, when shit gets real:

[huahaha]

1 hour ago, penelope79 said:

As for Jon and Littlefinger, I'm probably alone here, but for a moment I thought that LF was about to officially ask for Sansa's hand, before Jon almost choked him (btw, yay!): no one else had the same impression? Plus, my take on that scene is that LF also wanted to suggest Jon that he knew who is mother was. Jon didn't catch it, because he was too worried about Sansa and because he probably thought about Cat when LF said: "I love Sansa, and I loved your mother, too." But LF mentioned HIS mother, while in the crypt where Lyanna is buried: are we really supposed to believe he was talking about Cat, while few moments before he pointed out that Cat didn't love Jon? If I were Jon I would've ask: "And what do YOU know about my mother?"

[snip]

This is the first episode where I found Euron to be actually menacing. That grin on his face when he landed on Yara's ship!

Agreed. I thought we were in for the big reveal of Jon finding out who his mother is, because of course Littlefinger would know somehow. And LF was definitely angling to marry Sansa, in exchange for saving Jon's neck.

As for Euron, I kind of like the character but he's almost comic relief. So campy. His life plan cracks me up as well.

Plan A: Offer giant cock and fleet of ships to blonde queen.

Plan B: Offer giant cock and fleet of ships to OTHER blonde queen.

I guess you gotta go with your strong suits.

6 hours ago, Cherpumple said:

I agree with people who are longing for Littlefinger to just die already. Of course I've always hated him, but now we are FINALLY moving towards the big picture Final Battle, and his bullshit political machinations just seem petty and sad rather than menacing.

We won't be rid of Littlefinger until he serves some major plot purpose. Same with Theon. Their characters have been set up from book 1 as spoilers in this whole mess, based on longstanding resentment and weirdness with the Starks.