The Lonely Js Club: James, Jackson & Johannah

[Fuzzysox]

I had a horrible thought: what if Jana was sexually assaulted at some point? Then she'd no longer be "pure" and could no longer be matched up with a devout Fundy boy. They'd think Jana was to blame because women tempt men and are easily led astray by Satan.

I've thought about that for years. I doubt her parents would even get her some help if she did.

[cmr2014]

 

I had a horrible thought: what if Jana was sexually assaulted at some point? Then she'd no longer be "pure" and could no longer be matched up with a devout Fundy boy. They'd think Jana was to blame because women tempt men and are easily led astray by Satan.

 

I read this and thought -- wow, this is really drifting off into wild conjecture.

 

Then, I realized that the Duggars have no one but themselves to blame if all kinds of wild things are speculated about their family (and this doesn't seem like wild speculation to me). They have intentionally exposed their family to public scrutiny for years while hiding some aspects of their lives, offering partial views of others, and providing intentional mis-information in still other areas.

 

This Gothard scandal broke a long time ago, and they have made no effort to address it, and continue to send their children off to Gothard events (although I haven't heard anything about JTTH recently). When asked, they deny any connection to Gothard -- even though they are clearly connected (through Gil Bates, David Wallace, JTTH, Alert, etc.).

 

Even if Jana wasn't directly affected, I find it hard to believe that she hasn't been affected at all. She must have know at least some of the girls who were abused. She was indoctrinated for years to believe that Gothard was some kind of hero, and then to discover that he was pervert must have been devastating to her. If I were her, I'd be questioning the character of all of the "Godly" men in my world, and I wouldn't be super-excited about making a commitment to anyone. And, I wouldn't have a lot of confidence that my father -- who was a devotee of Gothard -- was a good judge of character and could be trusted to find me a good husband.

[NikSac]

Someone on another blog was questioning why Boob matched Jill with Derick instead of Jana. Even tho they have the missionary thing in common, Derick seems more on the quiet side, like Jana, thinking before speaking & Jill is very outgoing, constantly talking over whoever she is speaking with. Granted opposites attract but it can work the other way with similarities. What do you all think?

 

You know I never even thought about that. Who knows, maybe he tried and there was no attraction there, but they (Jana and Derick) do seem a lot alike in terms of their personalities.

Ah yes, "more smarter." I'm guessing that individual received a SOTDRT education as well!

 

For those who also watch Teen Mom 2, this reminds me of Jenelle's "more classier" court heels. More smarter?  Sheesh.

[GEML]

Also, his daughters have asked for some very specific things.  One of the chaperone boys (James?) said that Jill prayed for a man who was tall.  I've even thought it might be as simple in JB's mind that Derrick is tall, and therefore he should go to Jill.  Jana might have asked for someone with blue eyes.  The point is, in this kind of crazy world, we don't have any idea what they are "praying" for, because in a way, they don't know what to ask for in their "Prince Charmings."  When love to you is just an idea, and not a relationship that you have with an actual person, you might as well request specific things such as how he looks and what he does for a living and even (for Jinger) where he lives.  And it might be that Jim Bob makes the best attempt possible to find that perfect match on paper.

But how strange does that sound in the 21st century?

[Micks Picks]

One of the commenters on the site vcpost referenced above said that the ugly bridesmaid dresses were Jana's stick it to you for the lack of help and appreciation.  Really tickled me.  I love to think of it as a finger in the air to the rest of them.

[WTFFF]

IMHO and experience, opposites attract but eventually annoy the heck out of each other. People who have more in common get along better.

 

I agree, but JimBob and Michelle don't.  They talk a lot about how they chose "opposites" for the girls so the boys would "balance them out" like JimBob and Michelle did for each other.  There was also a moment when Joseph declined to speak on camera and Michelle commented that he would need a wife who talks a lot because Joe is so quiet.  (He was like 15 or 16 at the time, too; seemed kind of a weird thing to say.)

[floridamom]

I also don't think that opposites last, in most cases. Those differences to grate on one sooner or later. I do think similar personality types mesh better together over the long haul. Jessa and Ben are a prime example of this...his emotional make up is opposite of Jessa's and they just "don't get each other's ways". Jill and Derick are also another example, as they are opposites, Jill, talkative, doesn't shut up, anxious and quick, Derick, quite, a slow speaker and thinker, he constantly steps back to allow Jill to finish his sentences for him and outright interrupt him before he's finished speaking....that will wear on him soon, I think. Josh and Anna are more alike and are easier to watch during an interview....what do you guys think?

I can't believe that these girls' prayer to God for their husbands are physical features like height and eye color? What are they 12? Then they go on about "being slow to anger", but don't have a relationship which is long enough to live through a disagreement BEFORE marriage...everyone is still on their "company behavior" when they marry. Not a good idea,, folks. This family doesn't live in reality nor with any maturity. Their parents are wasted on them, sad to say.

I have wondered and have posted from the get to as to why Jim Bob didn't match up Derick and JANA. I thought for sure she would be first in his mind with him. They are similar like Josh and Anna and I think would have had a more agreeable household and they both live at the same speed.

[NausetGirl]

Ivy 26, that's because the Duggars are a cluster of contradictions, always were, still are and always will be... I agree with you. I like Jana, always have, and I feel that she is being taken advantage from day #1 by her infused generous "spirit" and having to do for everyone else... where is that in Michelle? Once again, a contradiction...Can't stand them....

 

I think the difference can be attributed in large part to the fact that Jana is an eldest daughter and MeChelle was a youngest.  In the psychology of birth order, oldests tend to be reliable, cautious, conscientious, structured, controlling and achievement-oriented.  Case in point: 23 of the first 24 Americans astronauts were either  firstborns or only children. !!!  Youngests/lastborns tend to be fun-loving, uncomplicated, manipulative, outgoing, attention-seeking and self-centered, often expecting others to do things for them.  Sound about right?

[NausetGirl]

I just don't like Jessa. I really don't.  She seems self-centered and just plain mean. I wonder if she's the family member poor Jana talked about having had trouble with.

 

 

So agree.  I think Lindsay Lohan will end up playing Jessa in the movie - and Sandra Bullock will be Jana...

[NausetGirl]

If Jana& Frank Sun married & had kids, wouldn't the children have Asian features? I thought Kate Gosselin explained this that Asians carry the dominant genes. How would Jim Boob & Michelle deal with that?

 

Hate to say it, but Kate G is right. In almost every instance, Caucasian features are dominated when the other parent is some other race. Case in point - Jon Gosselin has an Asian mom [Korea] and a Caucasian dad. And both of Kate's parents are Caucasian. So the kids are three-quarters white. Yet all 8 children appear strongly Asian in most respects.  I remember an episode where even the tups - maybe only 3 or 4 at the time - sat around the table goodnaturedly arguing about "who was most Asian..."  A cute episode.

Edited October 14, 2014 by NausetGirl

[Barb23]

I think the difference can be attributed in large part to the fact that Jana is an eldest daughter and MeChelle was a youngest. In the psychology of birth order, oldests tend to be reliable, cautious, conscientious, structured, controlling and achievement-oriented. Case in point: 23 of the first 24 Americans astronauts were either firstborns or only children. !!! Youngests/lastborns tend to be fun-loving, uncomplicated, manipulative, outgoing, attention-seeking and self-centered, often expecting others to do things for them. Sound about right?

I agree about the traits of first born/onlies. I read the same kind of things about them being leaders. My son is an only child & fits most of them. I am the youngest of 3 children but don't exhibit many of the youngest born traits. I definitely don't want to be the center of attention & am not very outgoing. I would rather blend in with the crowd.

But I do understand the birth order difference between Jana & MEchelle. My mother is also the last of 3 children. She has told me many times she can relate to me more than my older siblings because she understands what it's like being the last.

[BitterApple]

I also don't think that opposites last, in most cases. Those differences to grate on one sooner or later. I do think similar personality types mesh better together over the long haul. 

I agree. I've found that to be true even in my own relationship history. That's why I think Ben and Jessa are going to be a disaster. 

[NausetGirl]

I also don't think that opposites last, in most cases. Those differences to grate on one sooner or later. I do think similar personality types mesh better together over the long haul.

 

Totally agree.  I've always thought that people miss the real meaning of "opposites attract..."  It is true, oftentimes opposites do ATTRACT.  But this doesn't mean opposites LAST in the long haul.  Do they mesh well, work together, understand each other, have the same goals?  Certainly sometimes, but probably more often than not, no.

[floridamom]

I also would like to know what's the deal with sweet Jana. Why does she almost always look so underlyingly sad? What are HER hopes and dreams, if she is allowed to explore them and really know.

[PityFree]

She looks sad because she is defiant and disrespectful of her headship and should be beaten* until she can appear sweet again. It's been a long time since she was blanket trained. 

 

(I am being facetious! No way should anyone be beaten. But that is what Gothard and the Pearls would recommend.)

[jilliannatalia]

 

Hate to say it, but Kate G is right. In almost every instance, Caucasian features are dominated when the other parent is some other race. Case in point - Jon Gosselin has an Asian mom [Korea] and a Caucasian dad. And both of Kate's parents are Caucasian. So the kids are three-quarters white. Yet all 8 children appear strongly Asian in most respects.  I remember an episode where even the tups - maybe only 3 or 4 at the time - sat around the table goodnaturedly arguing about "who was most Asian..."  A cute episode

 

I remember that episode. they all agreed that Alexis wasn't Asian but the rest of them were.

[Darknight]

Jana should hang out with a Bates girl. She can sew, make money, and attend fundie college. Something to get her out of the house

[Adeejay]

I remember that episode. they all agreed that Alexis wasn't Asian but the rest of them were.

Of all the Gosselin kids, I think Alexis is the only one who vaguely resembles Kate.  However, Hannah seems to be her favorite. 

In a passive aggressive way, Anna totally called the other ladies out for not helping Jana with the bridesmaid dresses.  It was almost as if she’d been reading the blogs.  I saw the episode where the “Duggar ladies go shopping for a wedding dress”, for the first time the other day.  I noticed that while everyone was enjoying the lunch Anna prepared, Jana was unable to eat because she had Marcus in her lap and had to keep attending to him.  I just can’t get over the fact that no one seems to take her feelings into consideration.  She is constantly ignored or forgotten and they all seem to think it is okay because she never complains.

[GEML]

I had meant to mention this, but I had a different take on Jana holding Marcus.  I wondered if she was holding him during the brunch so that no one would notice that she wasn't eating.  It was a very nice brunch.  And we know that Jana did the Weight Watchers.  And then during the tea party, Jana was at the sewing machine.  I wondered about that too.  I wondered if maybe one of the reasons Jana is a little cranky right now is because she's HUNGRY.  We know eating disorders run through Gothard women, and there have been a lot of situations where Jana seems to be there, but not eating, or instead of Jana it's Jessa that goes to try out the cake, even thought she doesn't want cake at her wedding, etc.  Jana doesn't even eat the healthy food (like the fruit on the stick.)  Perhaps some unkind things have been said to her about not courting, I don't know, but I thought it was odd that this whole season, Jana doesn't seem to have eaten a thing.

Edited October 15, 2014 by GEML

[NausetGirl]

I can't believe that these girls' prayer to God for their husbands are physical features like height and eye color? What are they 12? Then they go on about "being slow to anger", but don't have a relationship which is long enough to live through a disagreement BEFORE marriage...everyone is still on their "company behavior" when they marry. Not a good idea,, folks. This family doesn't live in reality nor with any maturity. Their parents are wasted on them, sad to say.

 

Yes, it's sad to say it but they ARE 12. Emotionally and psychologically 12 years old. Thanks entirely to their parents who, at a very young age themselves, fell into a hole that is the Gothard world.  God alone knows what kind of a childhood/upbringing THAT guy had. To be very clear, I'm in no way condoning Gothard or what he believes and teaches. But no one's born that way. That he's been able to get a lot of largely-uneducated hillbillies to follow along is no mystery to me. People who were probably damaged by their own parents in varying extents as well. The whole thing is really tragic. So much potential wasted.

[msblossom]

So agree.  I think Lindsay Lohan will end up playing Jessa in the movie - and Sandra Bullock will be Jana...

Oh funny!! +10 likes

Totally agree.  I've always thought that people miss the real meaning of "opposites attract..."  It is true, oftentimes opposites do ATTRACT.  But this doesn't mean opposites LAST in the long haul.  Do they mesh well, work together, understand each other, have the same goals?  Certainly sometimes, but probably more often than not, no.

Not sure if I agree with this or not. I know many "opposites" in long term relationships and marriages (myself included) where that theory works very well. It's hard to say since 50% of all marriages end in divorce, so who knows? That said, I can see Jana with someone who is more outgoing. I certainly wouldn't eliminate a potential relationship if she was attracted to someone with a similar personality though. Obviously you need to have the similar values and goals, but I think a relationship has less challenges if you were both raised in similar ways -- I don't know what this would mean for Jana, because I would love to see her break free from fundamental Gothardism.

As badly as I feel right now for Jana with her sadness and public scrutiny, I do think she'll be fine. I think she's single because hasn't met the right guy -- no dramatic backstory. I think she'll end up with the pick of the litter too. He'll be a grown man who doesn't live with Mom and Dad, with, dare I say, a career. My hope is that he'll be from another state, preferably a good distance away and somewhere metropolitan like Chicago, New York, maybe DC, so that our girl Jana can put some mileage between herself and the Duggars. And preferably in a high rise apartment or brownstone where the Duggars can't camp out on her doorstep in the family bus or pile into her apartment like the Beverly Hillbillies. In other words, they'll have to fork out some dough and spring for a hotel like a normal family with more than 3 or 4 people would. That should cut down on the Duggars invading her territory some. As much as I'd love to see a whirlwind romance unfold and watch Jana fall in love, I hope we don't. Perhaps we'll catch a few glimpses. Mostly I hope Jana does what she wants for a change. It's about time.

[BucFan]

I had meant to mention this, but I had a different take on Jana holding Marcus.  I wondered if she was holding him during the brunch so that no one would notice that she wasn't eating.  It was a very nice brunch.  And we know that Jana did the Weight Watchers.  And then during the tea party, Jana was at the sewing machine.  I wondered about that too.  I wondered if maybe one of the reasons Jana is a little cranky right now is because she's HUNGRY.  We know eating disorders run through Gothard women, and there have been a lot of situations where Jana seems to be there, but not eating, or instead of Jana it's Jessa that goes to try out the cake, even thought she doesn't want cake at her wedding, etc.  Jana doesn't even eat the healthy food (like the fruit on the stick.)  Perhaps some unkind things have been said to her about not courting, I don't know, but I thought it was odd that this whole season, Jana doesn't seem to have eaten a thing.

Never noticed before, but now that you mention it :( Also, she was not eating at the Dave and Buster's place (the one with the giant pizza). Edited October 15, 2014 by BucFan

[floridamom]

msblossom, those are some nice wishes for Jana, but I hightly doubt any of that will happen as all those things go against their belief system. I just hope that Michelle doesn't hold on to her so long and sucks the life and youth out of her that her only choice is an older fundamentalist widower with 8 kids who needs another housekeeper, babysitter and brood mare for his "righteous fulfilling desires". Where is Jana going to find a decent man over 25 who has never held a female's hand other than his mom's? I hope they step on it for her and realize what they have been doing to her...maybe Jim Bob might, Michelle, uhhh, not so much.

[GEML]

I don't put a lot of stock into simplistic notions that you have to be similar or different or somewhere on the birth order, etc. Anything we pull out is a statistic, and any particular couple is a real flesh and blood couple. Anything that isn't 90-10% means you have pretty good odds as individuals when you are talking about millions of people.

Edited October 15, 2014 by GEML

[floridamom]

NausetGirl, I hear you, but I don't see how Jim Bob and Michelle were damaged by their parents..it seems to me they had a nice experience growing up, regardless what spiritually superior Jim Bob said or thinks about his father. The man did the best he could, have his kids a private house to live in and Grandma owns more than one property, Jim Bob went to private school, etc....I fail to see where Michelle sacrificed anywhere at all in her youth. They are both spoiled brats even at this age. But I get your point about probably others.

[Clemgo3165]

I felt terrible for Jana last night. Spending the better part of a month sewing ties and dresses while your sisters flit around setting up housekeeping. I love Jill, but was sorely disappointed at her attitude toward her sister last night, and no "thank you" in sight - except from Anna. Seems like Jana, being the oldest daughter, pulled the short straw and has to stick around Mom and Dad to help care for the family, since we know Mom and Dad and the boys won't be helping.

[GEML]

According to most written reports, most fundamentalist men in these circles don't marry until 25-30, because they really do take the ability to support a family seriously. Young men married off before then either come from much wealthier homes or are, well, chomping at the bit and it's better to marry than to burn.

There still is the very real problem that there are more princesses than prince charmings - or to quote Joy, a lot of the men are duds. That's unfortunately true. You see it in all fundamentalist cultures- the Amish, Orthodox Jewish, Mormonism, etc. It's not a culture that is really conducive to raising healthy young men across the spectrum of men, and more leave, fall through the cracks, or just aren't reliable than there are women who could marry them. It can be true that waiting too long is as risky as jumping the gun.

[msblossom]

msblossom, those are some nice wishes for Jana, but I hightly doubt any of that will happen as all those things go against their belief system. I just hope that Michelle doesn't hold on to her so long and sucks the life and youth out of her that her only choice is an older fundamentalist widower with 8 kids who needs another housekeeper, babysitter and brood mare for his "righteous fulfilling desires". Where is Jana going to find a decent man over 25 who has never held a female's hand other than his mom's? I hope they step on it for her and realize what they have been doing to her...maybe Jim Bob might, Michelle, uhhh, not so much.

A girl can hope, right? :)

Hey, if only half the stuff I hope for Jana comes true -- she'll be way ahead of the game.

I do see Jana differently than Jill and Jessa. I think she wants a different life than her sisters. I believe she wants to forge her own path yet remain faithful to her beliefs (which may or may not be the same as Ma & Pa Duggar). I'm not sure it's necessary that she falls in love with a "decent man over 25 who has never held a female's hand other than his mom's".

I know, shocking, right? What about a man with a kinky past that's done more than kiss a girl?

Whether JB is directly involved in helping Jana find the right guy or not, I think he'll be supportive and trusts Jana's good judgment if she finds this guy on her own or through other relationships. She's a bigger catch than Jill and Jessa, I'm not at all surprised that she's not falling for just anyone.

Edited October 15, 2014 by msblossom

[RazzleberryPie]

According to most written reports, most fundamentalist men in these circles don't marry until 25-30, because they really do take the ability to support a family seriously. Young men married off before then either come from much wealthier homes or are, well, chomping at the bit and it's better to marry than to burn.

There still is the very real problem that there are more princesses than prince charmings - or to quote Joy, a lot of the men are duds. That's unfortunately true. You see it in all fundamentalist cultures- the Amish, Orthodox Jewish, Mormonism, etc. It's not a culture that is really conducive to raising healthy young men across the spectrum of men, and more leave, fall through the cracks, or just aren't reliable than there are women who could marry them. It can be true that waiting too long is as risky as jumping the gun.

True, and no matter how much 'seeking a righteous women' is drilled in a man's head from birth, most of them will pick The Hot Chick over anything else. A few years down the road when the hornyness and hotness wears off, most wish they'd chosen wiser, but seriously, even Jim Bob was a Fundie Captain Save a Ho (not that I think Michelle was promiscuous or even sexually active before Jim Bob, but they love to reiterate that her emotions were damaged before she was married).

 

I just think Jana may be an introvert with an independent streak - she's not front and center howling or eyerolling like many of her siblings, but she still isn't going to chose the first guy who walks by with a Bible just for the sake of being married. Sometimes it's easier or more comfortable to stay behind the scenes and do the jobs that need done instead of goofying off.

[NausetGirl]

NausetGirl, I hear you, but I don't see how Jim Bob and Michelle were damaged by their parents..it seems to me they had a nice experience growing up, regardless what spiritually superior Jim Bob said or thinks about his father. The man did the best he could, have his kids a private house to live in and Grandma owns more than one property, Jim Bob went to private school, etc....I fail to see where Michelle sacrificed anywhere at all in her youth. They are both spoiled brats even at this age. But I get your point about probably others.

 

Floridamom, I completely agree with you that Boob & MeChelle had basically "normal" childhoods. At least outwardly. They went to school outside-the-home. Had friends that weren't siblings. We certainly know they dated, even touched people. Wink. But I'm guessing both were damaged too, on a more subtle psychological level. MeChelle, I think, was just spoiled rotten. She shows nearly every characteristic of a last-born child and a whole lot of narcissistic tendencies as well. Jim Bob, from comments that have been made over the years, had some issues with his father. Not clear at all what they were, but something was going on. I remember him saying once how he had been a little scrawny kid until later in high school. Something about being very short and not having his final growth spurt until he was 16 or 17, later than most boys. He very well could have been mocked and bullied extensively when he was younger by other kids. Maybe even his dad messed with him about being short. And maybe he didn't even mean it the way Boob took it, but it still is likely to have had an effect. And now he seems like someone who is always trying to prove himself as better than others. Of course none of us know for sure.  It's all a massive amount of conjecture on all our parts. I just don't think they would have taken the extreme turn into Gothardism in their early 20s based on a miscarriage alone.  Which is what I'm remembering as the reason they now give for "letting God decide how many children we'll have..." For a young couple to basically alter their whole way of life so drastically from the way they were raised, there had to be some major things at play.

[Joe Jitsu913]

Does anyone remember the speculation about Jana and "tomato staking". It was right around a book tour. Jana was pictured away from her siblings but constantly around Michelle, IIRC. I always wondered about that.

[GEML]

I would caution that people who join cult or cult-like religious groups are automatically damaged or otherwise compromised psychologically when they do so. Pretty much every study out there shows differently. It's something we like to tell ourselves, because no one likes to think of themselves as people vulnerable to group thinking, when in truth, most of us are if the person leading that group thought could find the right hook.

Of course, once that hook has caught and people have been in a movement for a long time, it is true that their brain thought patterns DO change, and any tendency towards a mental illness or personality disorder, for instance, may be exacerbated. This doesn't have to be religious group think of course - it can be political, environmental, socio-economical, racial, psycho-sexual, just to name a few.

And of course, children raised in an EXTREME form of any type of isolated and insular thinking generally do have a hard time as adults, but that's another topic altogether.

[RazzleberryPie]

Does anyone remember the speculation about Jana and "tomato staking". It was right around a book tour. Jana was pictured away from her siblings but constantly around Michelle, IIRC. I always wondered about that.

I don't understand what this means.

[cmr2014]

Tomato-staking is keeping a child (of whatever age) within arms length at all times.

 

Here is a link with info about Gothard child-rearing theories:

 

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/08/14/371430/-Dominionism-and-child-abuse-part-2#

[Portia]

Does anyone remember the speculation about Jana and "tomato staking". It was right around a book tour. Jana was pictured away from her siblings but constantly around Michelle, IIRC. I always wondered about that.

  

I don't understand what this means.

I didn't either, so I googled "tomato staking children." Interesting!

[Mrsjumbo]

I googled "tomato staking"- scary! In young kids, it sounds like you are constantly watching the kid, waiting for them to mess up, then you spank them. One degree removed from "blanket training". It sickens me.

[Darknight]

I hope Jana has a lot of resentment towards her parents. As she should. Poor girl can't get a break. I hope she does meet a great guy and does what she wants in her life. Or decides to leave and follow her own dreams. She's almost 25 still raising kids that aren't hhers.her desires and dreams have been shattered or toss aside

I googled "tomato staking"- scary! In young kids, it sounds like you are constantly watching the kid, waiting for them to mess up, then you spank them. One degree removed from "blanket training". It sickens me.

This is child abuse

[WTFFF]

 

Maybe even his dad messed with him about being short.

I really hope that's not true, because if so, it makes his mocking Josiah for being so short all the more infuriating. 

[Joe Jitsu913]

Tomato-staking is keeping a child (of whatever age) within arms length at all times.

Here is a link with info about Gothard child-rearing theories:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/08/14/371430/-Dominionism-and-child-abuse-part-2#

It was around the time Jana mentioned she had resentment toward someone in her family. Then during the book tour, Jana was always seated away from the other J'slaves and right next to Michelle. Makes me wonder if there was some kind of punishment of Jana. She always looks so sad.

[Adeejay]

Jana mentioned she had resentment toward someone in her family.

 

About two years ago, Jana told a story about Jessa and her jewelry box.  Jessa used to lie in her bottom bunk and kick the upper bunk that Jana was in, over and over again. When they fought about it, Michelle told Jana to give Jessa her most important prized possession to "bless" her or "encourage" her or something.  Anyway, Jana gave her prized jewelry box to the nasty, little brat.  And, even though it had been 15 years, when Jana was telling the story, she had tears in her eyes.  It seemed she took it as “turning the other cheek and being nice to your enemy.”  However, Michelle’s rational didn’t make sense to me, because you don’t reward negative behavior.

[mimionthebeach]

About two years ago, Jana told a story about Jessa and her jewelry box.  Jessa used to lie in her bottom bunk and kick the upper bunk that Jana was in, over and over again. When they fought about it, Michelle told Jana to give Jessa her most important prized possession to "bless" her or "encourage" her or something.  Anyway, Jana gave her prized jewelry box to the nasty, little brat.  And, even though it had been 15 years, when Jana was telling the story, she had tears in her eyes.  It seemed she took it as “turning the other cheek and being nice to your enemy.”  However, Michelle’s rational didn’t make sense to me, because you don’t reward negative behavior.

I have only read about this story on comment boards, but it always struck me as a total parenting cop-out on Michelle's part. Punished Jana (who started the fuss) and reinforced Jessa's bad behaviour, but it was the path of least resistance for a woman who'd already started downloading parenting to her children. 

 

(Edited because nothing about the Duggars is "rad".)

Edited October 16, 2014 by mimionthebeach

[GEML]

I'd like to try and explain the jewelry box story, but I'm not sure I can if you didn't grow up in a world of profound self sacrifice. But I can tell you that I don't watch that story and see Jessa laughing at Jana for being stupid. I do see Jessa pleased to have finally gotten someone's attention (I think she was starved for attention as a child and as an adult no longer wants anything to protect herself) but I do think she's sad that it had to be Jana that gave the attention to her.

Don't be fooled when any Duggar is smiling. They have been taught, perhaps even hit, if they are among the older children, if they didn't smile. They were taught to smile when they were MOST unhappy.

Jana's story is perfectly in keeping with extreme Christian values and it very likely worked or Jana wouldn't remember it.

Or out it this way, I remember my similar story, and giving everything to the person tormenting you can be very powerful. And when it works, it does change the way you see the world and you don't forget that. It's very Christ gospel. But I'm not sure I can do it more than a handful of times in my life - I'm simply not brave enough to do it - and I'll tell you flat out that the Duggars aren't doing it at all.

Edited October 16, 2014 by GEML

[alegtostandon]

Wow!

 

 

About two years ago, Jana told a story about Jessa and her jewelry box.  Jessa used to lie in her bottom bunk and kick the upper bunk that Jana was in, over and over again. When they fought about it, Michelle told Jana to give Jessa her most important prized possession to "bless" her or "encourage" her or something.  Anyway, Jana gave her prized jewelry box to the nasty, little brat.  And, even though it had been 15 years, when Jana was telling the story, she had tears in her eyes.  It seemed she took it as “turning the other cheek and being nice to your enemy.”  However, Michelle’s rational didn’t make sense to me, because you don’t reward negative behavior.

 

I have never heard of this term 'tomato staking' in regards to raising children before.  I can understand the need to keep a toddler within your range, but a 25 year old?  Do these people not have any rights?  What if Janna were to say 'screw you all and your damn laws, infractions, consequences, tomato staking ideas, whatever the heck it is you call them, I am an adult and choose to live my own life.' and moves into her own apartment or house?  With as long as these people have been on TV, those kids should have a nice nest egg.  Would she be banned from the family?  Is any of this money made from this show given to the kids? Being that they are 'adults' and not minors, is the money not given to them? 

 

After reading a bit about the 'tomato staking' and it said if the 'child' does not obey you, you are to swat them on the behind, are these 'adult children' swatted still? 

 

I am just shocked at the people who responded to that article talking about 'Christianity' and what wonderful 'Christians' this family is.  To me, this is not 'Christianity' but dictatorship. 

 

RE: The above quote; what was the purpose in Janna having to give her prized possession to the sibling who was causing problems? Why would it not have been the other way around,, where Jessa had to give something of hers to Janna? Makes no sense to me, but nothing in this family does.

[starfire]

Does anyone know the name of the episode where Jana and Jessa discuss the jewelry box? I haven't seen it but would like to.

[Adeejay]

Does anyone know the name of the episode where Jana and Jessa discuss the jewelry box? I haven't seen it but would like to.

 

If memory serves, the episode aired in the Fall of 2012.  It's the one where they visited Nashville and the Grand Ole Opry. 

[starfire]

Adeejay, on 16 Oct 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

If memory serves, the episode aired in the Fall of 2012.  It's the one where they visited Nashville and the Grand Ole Opry. 

 

Thanks for the info! I Googled and found the episode, it's called "Grand Ole Duggars". It's on Youtube but it costs $1.99. I do not want to pay to watch the Duggars!

 

In the recap for that show it was mentioned that the Duggars somehow managed to weasel their way onto the Grand Ole Opry stage and sing "Amazing Grace"! I bet Patsy Cline was rolling over in her grave.

Edited October 16, 2014 by starfire

[ginger90]

Does anyone know the name of the episode where Jana and Jessa discuss the jewelry box? I haven't seen it but would like to.

I looked it up and it's Season 10, Episode 10, Grand Ole Duggars.

[GEML]

About the Daily Kos article - I do want to say that James Dobson is NOT Dominionist.  Please keep in mind that within the subcultures these are very specific terms that have very specific meanings.  James Dobson is not "raising an army for God" or anything like that, for all the talk about having Christians vote in an government that cares about Christian ideas and beliefs.  (I know this because I was raised under the Dobson model of child, not the Gothard model, and I have friends who were raised under even different models and I know where the fault lines of each are, the fault lines matter.)

 

I've walks away from almost all of this, and I'm not trying to defend any of it, but I am a real stickler for accuracy, and telling the truth.  I did keep that from my childhood ideals!  ;)

And the tomato staking is for young kids.  The idea that the Duggars would be using it with a young adult is very strange.  The only non-nefarious reason someone might be using it would be if the person were ill, or on a medication and needed genuine care.  

[Grandma Sheila]

Also, his daughters have asked for some very specific things.  One of the chaperone boys (James?) said that Jill prayed for a man who was tall.  I've even thought it might be as simple in JB's mind that Derrick is tall, and therefore he should go to Jill.  Jana might have asked for someone with blue eyes.  The point is, in this kind of crazy world, we don't have any idea what they are "praying" for, because in a way, they don't know what to ask for in their "Prince Charmings."  When love to you is just an idea, and not a relationship that you have with an actual person, you might as well request specific things such as how he looks and what he does for a living and even (for Jinger) where he lives.  And it might be that Jim Bob makes the best attempt possible to find that p?erfect match on paper.

But how strange does that sound in the 21st century?

It sounds very strange. 

 

I thought it was so funny when the older girls were talking about what kind of partner they want. How in the heck do they know without dating first? Also the relationship advice really cracked me up. If life were only that simple!

[RazzleberryPie]

My take on Jana and Michelle, is that Michelle has never like Jana. Michelle was doted upon for her entire life, then had Josh and twins (Jana and John David), and became overwhelmed. Then she had Jill, Jessa and Jinger very quickly. She says Jana was 'high spirited', but all we've ever seen of Jana is very introverted, calm, responsible, etc. Of all the kids who could be called high spirited, Jana is not one. 

 

I think Michelle was overwhelmed, didn't have much help, and as the youngest of her own family, really, really resented how much work all those kids area, and she took it out on Jana. I have a cousin who was an only child, and when she had kids, was always lamenting about how energetic and difficult they were, that they never gave her rest and were so hard to handle. Truth is, they weren't very active or wild kids; she just had never not been the center of attention who could do as she pleased, so she couldn't comprehend why they didn't want to sleep until 9 or 10, sit and coo, then go to bed at 7. 

 

Jana is a girl, and boys can never do wrong, so she was 'high spirited.' Also, there may have been some subconscious resentment from Michelle that another girl might be getting some of her attention, so she disliked Jana even more. To top it off, when the went Full Gothard Fundie, Michelle had to pray to have a heart for children, but Jana just does, naturally. She's very good at the whole Susie Homemaker sewing/cleaning/diapering/cooking business, and instead of thinking this is a good thing for the eldest daughter of a brood, Michelle resented that, too.  Jana is everything Michelle had to pray to be, and she hates her for it.