The Lonely Js Club: James, Jackson & Johannah

[GEML]

Except I don't think she does. She simultaneously says how wonderful the older twins are, but it always sounds like she's selling puppies (which, given the way they marry, may not be that far off.). But you never get the impression that she LIKES them!

[kokapetl]

Except I don't think she does. She simultaneously says how wonderful the older twins are, but it always sounds like she's selling puppies (which, given the way they marry, may not be that far off.). But you never get the impression that she LIKES them!

I think it's "puppies, free to good home" at this point.

[Churchhoney]

Except I don't think she does. She simultaneously says how wonderful the older twins are, but it always sounds like she's selling puppies (which, given the way they marry, may not be that far off.). But you never get the impression that she LIKES them!

 

Yeah, good point.

 

I still think she probably would prefer blandness from most of her kids, though. Less competition for her and JB and fewer things to remember about them.

[Temperance]

I'm pretty sure I've seen all of the Duggar clips and specials that everyone else has, and I just don't see happy, animated Jana. I see a very pleasant young girl who was still very much overshadowed by her two younger sisters.

And yes, Michelle is STILL telling us how wonderful Jana and John David are, but you know, they hide it awfully well behind bland personalities that occasionally are pleasant but are just as likely peevish (Jana) or rather crude (JD). So I don't know.

The section I highlighted could describe the entire family from what I've seen of their show.  They come bland in a lot of the time, but are peevish (about not wanting to really encounter anyone who doesn't share their values, etc.) or crude (JB and Michelle constantly talking about increasing the brood; everyone obsessing about so and sos' first kiss, etc.) I could probably think of a better example of peevish, but my brain is tired today.

 

 

Except I don't think she does. She simultaneously says how wonderful the older twins are, but it always sounds like she's selling puppies (which, given the way they marry, may not be that far off.). But you never get the impression that she LIKES them!

I don't know if she likes them or not, but she's baffled by them and the fact they aren't married. Michelle was married at 17 and JB at 19. She's surprised she could have children 25 and unmarried.

Likewise she's the Cheerleader who had a boyfriend (husband at 17!) and they are the nerds? (not sure which clique to place them in, but definitely a less cool clique than cheerleaders) who are unable to get dates. 

Edited July 4, 2015 by Temperance

[Loves2Dance]

Except I don't think she does. She simultaneously says how wonderful the older twins are, but it always sounds like she's selling puppies (which, given the way they marry, may not be that far off.). But you never get the impression that she LIKES them!

I don't think Michelle likes any of her kids, tbh. I think she has started to like Jill and Jessa for the attention it brought her when they courted/got married/got pregnant, but kids seemed more like a means to an end with Michelle as a martyr figure for all to aspire for; when in reality, she isn't very motherly. A lot of her personality and life change focus happened right before Jana/John David and the time period right after it; Josh proved that they didn't start soon enough and if Jana was too chatty and John David wasn't mindful enough, then she failed them and went to the next learning how to break the spirit of the child faster and more efficiently. 

[GEML]

This is the thing about the breaking wills. It takes time. And I don't think Michelle gives ANY of her children enough time to do it. Even something like blanket training takes longer than a few tries. Yes, that will work in the short run, and with SOME children it might work in the long run, but MOST children, as they reach new developmental milestones themselves will push those boundaries again. But by then, those children have moved on to some "buddy."

They can talk about the Pearl method all they want, but with children being born every 12-18 months in their house the way they were in the thick of it, I'm having a hard time logistically seeing how they made it work. I figure a few of the middle children had it before they gave up, because it would have required effort, and they give up everything that requires REAL effort on the parents' part.

[kokapetl]

This is the thing about the breaking wills. It takes time. And I don't think Michelle gives ANY of her children enough time to do it. Even something like blanket training takes longer than a few tries. Yes, that will work in the short run, and with SOME children it might work in the long run, but MOST children, as they reach new developmental milestones themselves will push those boundaries again. But by then, those children have moved on to some "buddy."

They can talk about the Pearl method all they want, but with children being born every 12-18 months in their house the way they were in the thick of it, I'm having a hard time logistically seeing how they made it work. I figure a few of the middle children had it before they gave up, because it would have required effort, and they give up everything that requires REAL effort on the parents' part.

I agree. I think Jana does what she does because she'd feel guilty if she abandoned her 'duty', and the guilt would be due to 'injuring' her siblings, not Michelle.

[Fostersmom]

Except I don't think she does. She simultaneously says how wonderful the older twins are, but it always sounds like she's selling puppies (which, given the way they marry, may not be that far off.). But you never get the impression that she LIKES them!

 

Other than Josh, I've never got the impression any of the kids truly like Michelle either. JimBob, yes, I do think the kids like him. Michelle not so much. Josh is the only one I've ever seen show honest concern or love for her. The rest give the expected answers or impressions, but it always seems for the camera only. 

[GeeGolly]

As much as we would like to believe the Duggar kids don't like their parents, I'm sure they do love them & and even like them. The kids have only had glimpses into other parents & families who share similar styles. Other parents, like Aunt Deanna, are portrayed as sinners, or people that have strayed. Quick statements said about Jana, make me think she also blanket trained the younger ones and believes in immediate obedience. I recall Joy telling a group of littles she was going to get Jana if they didn't obey. I think unless the parents are physically abusive it takes some distance & independence for adult children to see their parents as they really are. And Jana really hasn't had that opportunity yet.

[GEML]

I think Jana is probably pretty strict, and was strictest with the middle ones like Joy, the younger twins, and Josiah. Jiggers might have been spared because she had Jessa, and Joseph had John David.

We know that Michelle talked about blanket training around the time of being pregnant with the older twins, and we know she had her melt down about this time. I can see a responsible daughter, like Jana, reinforcing strictness to make the house more peaceful. Especially if her father is also known for blowing his top and yelling and the mother is a screamer.

So maybe Jana was pretty harsh with them. That would "break" a person pretty badly. And it would also allow every other Duggar child to still love and even like their parents very much (which I believe they do.)

[BitterApple]

Other than Josh, I've never got the impression any of the kids truly like Michelle either. JimBob, yes, I do think the kids like him. Michelle not so much. Josh is the only one I've ever seen show honest concern or love for her. The rest give the expected answers or impressions, but it always seems for the camera only.

I remember one epi where Michelle and Boob were making a big fuss as they were leaving for a trip and the kids barely paid attention. It makes no difference to those kids whether their parents are around or not.

As far as Jana, I do feel like if she ever wants to marry she needs to be a little more pro-active. The pickings in her circle are slim as it is and she has the baggage of an insane, overbearing family. If she was living a mainstream life it would be no big deal to be 25 and single but in Gothardland her expiration date isn't too far off.

[Janet Snakehole]

Frankly, I would view not being liked by Michelle as a plus.

[Churchhoney]

I think unless the parents are physically abusive it takes some distance & independence for adult children to see their parents as they really are.

 

 

And when people are isolated like these kids and there's an actual program to convince them of their parents' right-thinking and other so on, there may never be enough distance and independence for some to see them as they really are. So says my family experience, at any rate. I don't grok Jana really, but from the superficial impression that I have, I can see her being one for whom no amount of distance will really give her perspective on JB and M.

Edited July 4, 2015 by Churchhoney

[birkenstock]

I also wonder how involved in physical discipline Jana and the other older girls are/were. I always viewed Jana as being nurturing and motherly - especially in her relationship with Josie and interactions with some of the other littles. Jill always seemed more of the disciplinarian and trying to make their parents happy YMMV.

I think that Jana has authority over the littles because she and Jill were the primary caregivers. Being in a caregivers role provides for a certain level of respect without needing to use physical discipline. IMO Joy Anna doesn't have that same authority because she was a junior member of a buddy team and didn't have as much of a leadership role that made the little kids less likely to listen to her.

I'm not saying that the older girls never spanked their siblings, but even Jana was only a child (8) when Jed and Jer were born. I can't imagine even Jim Bob and Michelle had children and preteens physically discipline/blanket train babies and toddlers. If the older girls were physically disciplining the howlers then that's a whole other level of abuse Jim Bob and Michelle have perpetrated against all of the kids involved.

It would have been interesting to see an "All About Jana" episode like they did Jill and Jessa. I don't want the show to continue, but would be interested to see how the siblings viewed their relationship with her.

[kokapetl]

Letting an 8 year blanket train a baby is a recipe for disaster. The Duggars would have had to be really really absolutely incredibly stupid and reckless to permit it, and I don't think they are that stupid. I'm guessing the overcrowded living arrangements the family had earlier kept the kids in line, it was practically impossible to get away with anything when it was impossible to not be in the same room as a sister mom. TTH changed things a bit, and in Jana's buddy team of Jason, Jackson and Josie, the last two are particularly wild.

[Sew Sumi]

As many here have said after I mentioned the fall into the orchestra pit: "There's a Jason?"

 

The laundry room breakdown was before the twins were born. IIRC, it happened when Joe was a baby, so about 20 years ago. The take away is that this was the defining moment when Mechelle checked out and created buddy teams with little girls who needed to enjoy being children rather than little adults.

[GEML]

This is my original point - I think the kids were spanked, and probably pretty often. But I think the blanket training is oversold. I think it probably was done for a few of the middle children at their earliest stage, but if you've read the Pearl book, it's not just something you do a few times and are done with it. The Pearls have, what, four, maybe five children? Their lives are COMPLETELY different from the lives of the Duggars, especially after about eight or nine kids. The Pearls also lived on a farm and incorporated a lot of manual, tiring labor, whereas the Duggars worked their children, but in much more demanding (yet tedious) ways. Even the boys were given too much responsibility without proper education with the house building. That doesn't build confidence - that breeds insecurity.

[Churchhoney]

Letting an 8 year blanket train a baby is a recipe for disaster. The Duggars would have had to be really really absolutely incredibly stupid and reckless to permit it, and I don't think they are that stupid.

 

The really scary thing, though, is that a fair number of parents who, ostensibly at least, are much smarter, better educated, more well meaning and less neurotic than the Duggars actually have done and do do this.

 

Yet more evidence that there are serious, serious problems with the Quiverfull lifestyle.

Edited July 4, 2015 by Churchhoney

[kokapetl]

The really scary thing, though, is that a fair number of parents who, ostensibly at least, are much smarter, better educated, more well meaning and less neurotic than the Duggars actually have done and do do this.

Yet more evidence that there are serious, serious problems with the Quiverfull lifestyle.

I can see people who raise their own children blanket training, but anyone who delegates that to a preteen will end up with a dead baby and a Coronial Inquiry.

I totally believe the Duggars spanked their older kids, it's in the police report. It also used to be fairly common.

[Churchhoney]

I can see people who raise their own children blanket training, but anyone who delegates that to a preteen will end up with a dead baby and a Coronial Inquiry.

 

 

Absolutely. But If you read around the blogs and such written by young adults who've left many of these mega-households, you'll see that sister moms, especially, seem to be handed this responsibility more often than you'd ever want to think.

 

A few prominent examples:

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2015/06/how-being-an-older-sibling-in-a-big-family-is-like-being-a-polygamous-sister-wife.html

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2012/03/giving-the-child-the-rod-2.html

 

http://cynthiajeub.com/2014/10/im-sorry-you-lost-your-kids/

 

https://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/2015/01/22/their-happiness-does-not-depend-on-me-asenaths-story/

[BitterApple]

It wouldn't surprise me if Jana and Jill were expected to discipline their younger siblings. I also fully believe that Michelle partially blamed Jana for the molestation because it happened on HER watch. The kids were Jana's responsibility, not Golden Boy Joshie-poo's. I don't think Jana was let off scot free when the shit hit the fan twelve years ago.

Edited July 4, 2015 by BitterApple

[may2]

I read somewhere Jana does  all lthe spanking.

[HundFan]

 But If you read around the blogs and such written by young adults who've left many of these mega-households, you'll see that sister moms, especially, seem to be handed this responsibility more often than you'd ever want to think.

 

http://cynthiajeub.com/2014/10/im-sorry-you-lost-your-kids/

 

I found this article - especially the comments - particularly heartbreaking. Children should be children. Parents shouldn't have them if they can't grasp that truth.

[GEML]

I believe that Michelle abdicated, but I doubt that Jim Bob would want to give that up. I have yet to meet a Fundy Dad that refused to spank a child but was ok with someone else doing it. Headship issue.

[Churchhoney]

I believe that Michelle abdicated, but I doubt that Jim Bob would want to give that up. I have yet to meet a Fundy Dad that refused to spank a child but was ok with someone else doing it. Headship issue.

 

I can see Michelle giving it up, too, since she gives up everything.

 

It's clear that it doesn't require either parent giving it up, though. In some cases -- most that I've heard and read about, in fact -- the older kids are just added to the list of those empowered to do it, since sometimes they're in charge of the younger kids when the parents are busy elsewhere. If you demand instant obedience -- including to an older sibling who's in charge -- it clearly makes sense to some people to empower the sibling to exact an immediate consequence if the obedience isn't forthcoming. According to their kids' accounts, Chris Jeub and Libby Anne's parents, for example, kept spanking even though some of their children were also empowered to do it.

 

Edited July 5, 2015 by Churchhoney

[kalamac]

A lot of parents not in fundie land, who don't necessarily consider the husband/father to be the headship do that too. Kid misbehaves, mother is "wait til your father gets home!", and 6 hours after actually being bad is when they get spanked for it, which is terrible for the kid, because by then their mind is on something else, and they've maybe had a good few hours with the non-spanking parent, and even though they know they did something wrong, they time being committing the act, and receiving the punishment can create confusion, and result in hostile feelings toward the parent doing the punishing.

[GEML]

Discipline/punishment is a complicated thing. I was at dinner with school friends, all of whom went to school with an overly zealous paddling principal. (I went to a tough urban school district. No, I was never paddled.). All but one of the boys (out of about 15) had been, most multiple times.

But most said they wished they own children had the option of the swift paddling over the long drawn out punishments schools do today, which often take several days for any given infraction, and multiple lectures and "interventions" by adults. This surprised me very much, and I came home and asked my own (never spanked) son about it. He agreed a quick paddling would be unpleasant, but being suspended and lectured and labeled was worse.

On the flip side, plenty of children find the paddling beyond humiliating, and fill the time in suspension with productive activities, so the time isn't a dead loss.

So "wait until your father gets home" is sort of the new way we handle discipline in society (think about what happens to someone in the prison system).

[msblossom]

My mom was the "wait til your father gets home" type, which was never too long since he arrived home from work about an and fifteen minutes after I got home from school. Fortunately, I didn't get spanked very frequently.

Our grade school principal gave "hacks" with an old Converse tennis shoe. I never got one. Funny thing is, he was extremely popular and well liked by all the students and parents. I don't think Mr. Brown resorted to giving too many hacks.

[lookeyloo]

I think the "wait until your father gets home" isn't all that new unless I skipped a few posts.  It was very common when I was growing up many moons ago.  My mother never could remember to tell my father, and she usually gave out a slap or pinch at the moment.  My uncle, and several other relatives/neighbors, used the "wait until your father gets home".  My uncle's family lived next door so we knew what was going on.  My aunt would have my cousins sit on the sofa and when the uncle came in, in a fedora and top coat, his first words were "have you been good girls today?" I was very afraid of that uncle although he never touched me.  My cousins were terrified of him too. I heard from some of my friends at the time that they had to wait too.  I realize this is a small non representative sample, but it is my experience.

[GeeGolly]

Wally & Beaver had to wait for Ward to get home. Then he would give them a stern talking too.

[GEML]

Jim Bob was never home, we were told, at least during large portions of the early years when they were starting out or when he was in politics. Now, of course, he's home all of the time. That probably played a role in the household dynamics and discipline method.

I think the problem with an "All about Jana" episode is that until she's safely married, the family line has to be about how wonderful she is. It's not until a child is married that they "joke" about some of their faults. Of course, I think any long term viewer has seen these faults pop up over the years, but the family thinks they've done a bang up job being perfect.

[Flowers]

Remember in the episode where Joy is helping the littles with their song for the J/M show? The girls aren't cooperating and Joy threatens that she'll send them to Jana.

Makes me wonder what would have happened to them, should that have occurred.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Flowers

[Jellybeans]

It is scary what a smile can hide. Jana strikes me as cold.

[TessHarding2]

I'd like to see Jana romanced by a grown man, not a man-child.  Like early 30's (not that a lot of men are mature at that age, but it's better than a 19 year old guy).  Some one with real life experience who would open her up to living outside of that metal box.  I think she's so incredibly beautiful.  She may have some depression too.  She always looks like she could use some true joy.

[GeeGolly]

I see Jana as parentified. Too much responsibility, too soon. Footloose and fancy free is foreign to her. She probably does not remember a time where she not burdened with adult responsibilities.

[Darknight]

I see Jana as parentified. Too much responsibility, too soon. Footloose and fancy free is foreign to her. She probably does not remember a time where she not burdened with adult responsibilities.

Some parentified children don't even want their own children because they've already raised children. When they get older it's hard for them to form relationships. I'm sure Jana has seen and done things no child should have to do. Plus she's the oldest girl. That has to be hard on her.

[sometimesy]

It is scary what a smile can hide. Jana strikes me as cold.

She is the one I wanted to champion, to escape, make money, have a life. That damn pasted on smile, the glimpses of her at that Gothard camp etc make me believe SHE is deep deep into this mess. Not much emotion from her at all for anything. She is too far gone imo. That countenance smile crap is freaking me out. At the rodeo, at the good bye thing, while sewing, while doing anything EXCEPT trying to save Josie. It's almost like some light got into a very dark place. Hello Jana? You in there? As they say "sometimes God has to break a heart to get in". I do not believe 'God' would want this life for these kids. This is Gothard.

 

OK so Jinger, you ready to run?

Edited July 10, 2015 by sometimesy

[Happyfatchick]

I'm always "stupidly" excited when there's a new post on this thread, and excited to click on. Sadly, there's never news about Jana. Yep, I think she's probably in too far. So beautiful (IMO only, the most beautiful of the whole bunch), but so absent.

[dillpickles]

I'm always "stupidly" excited when there's a new post on this thread, and excited to click on. Sadly, there's never news about Jana. Yep, I think she's probably in too far. So beautiful (IMO only, the most beautiful of the whole bunch), but so absent.

This post got me excited, i feel defrauded.

I dunno though, Jana's plastered on smile seems like a coping mechanism to me. Just smile and nod, and everything will blow over. It'd be interesting to see if she grows a personality when this whole Duggar thing officially (in Jim Bobs mind) blows up.

I often wonder what she thinks, she's one Duggar I'd want to interview, but i doubt she'd talk.

[louannems]

Jana is the reason I found this forum. I had watched a whole day of Duggar marathon and all Jana ever did was smile and nod. She rarely talked. Her eyes seemed so sad and vacant to me. I actually googled Why is Jana Duggar sad? And I found this forum! The only emotional response I observed was during Josie's seizure when Jana was hysterical, and when Jill announced her pregnancy and Jana shrieked and cooed. But her few TH's have Jana talking Gothard speak. I do distinctly remember a real look of disgust when Anna announced her 4th pregnancy but I do believe it was later edited out. As a girl being raised that being a wife and mother are everything, I wonder how she feels about her 2 younger sisters marrying before her. I was the oldest daughter and my two much younger sisters married before me, and I felt embarrassed about that.

[FakeJoshDuggar]

This probably goes into the Bates thread, but since it was brought up here... Girl Bates is on the board of directors for IBLP and had to have had a hand in Bill Gothard's ousting.

[FakeJoshDuggar]

I'm pretty sure I've seen all of the Duggar clips and specials that everyone else has, and I just don't see happy, animated Jana. I see a very pleasant young girl who was still very much overshadowed by her two younger sisters.

And yes, Michelle is STILL telling us how wonderful Jana and John David are, but you know, they hide it awfully well behind bland personalities that occasionally are pleasant but are just as likely peevish (Jana) or rather crude (JD). So I don't know.

I've met a few of the Duggars as they were practically in my backyard at an event. I've talked about it on instagram and a few other places, but Jana gives off intense vibes of being fragile. Like she's on the verge of a nervous breakdown and holding on to every minute. She's gracious and reserved but her body language screams fragility.

I also met John David, the older twins, Josh and Anna (who I called being pregnant way before she announced), Josiah and someone else, but it didn't stick.

[CofCinci]

Jinger has lost a lot of weight.

[GEML]

I can very much believe that. The Josie episode was very eye opening.

[kokapetl]

She sure has. I hope it's just a coincidence that she's worn those super long dresses, and that she doesn't have a body image thing with her legs.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Kokapetl

[GEML]

In the Jill video, she looked so thin, her eyes so dark, and her skin so unhealthily pale, that with her hair piled up and the long dress, she looked like the bride of Frankenstein. And all of her vitality had been sucked right out of her, Dracula style. I hope she's ok. She's a lovely girl who seemed just fine and healthy looking a few months ago.

[Bella]

In the Jill video, she looked so thin, her eyes so dark, and her skin so unhealthily pale, that with her hair piled up and the long dress, she looked like the bride of Frankenstein. And all of her vitality had been sucked right out of her, Dracula style. I hope she's ok. She's a lovely girl who seemed just fine and healthy looking a few months ago.

 

I wonder if the sister-mom teams have just collapsed with Jill and Jessa leaving. In Jana's thread, there was discussion about her fragility. In the Other Duggars thread, there have been comments about how some of the younger children appear neglected. Did the Josh scandal throw the family into much more disarray than many of us imagined? Is Jinger in charge of more than she can manage? Is she depressed at the loss of a close sister? Does she need some mothering herself (which, of course, MEchelle would not do)? Call me crazy, but I think even teenagers need involved parents caring for them. [insert sarcasm tags here]

[yogi2014L]

I wonder if the sister-mom teams have just collapsed with Jill and Jessa leaving. In Jana's thread, there was discussion about her fragility. In the Other Duggars thread, there have been comments about how some of the younger children appear neglected. Did the Josh scandal throw the family into much more disarray than many of us imagined? Is Jinger in charge of more than she can manage? Is she depressed at the loss of a close sister? Does she need some mothering herself (which, of course, MEchelle would not do)? Call me crazy, but I think even teenagers need involved parents caring for them. [insert sarcasm tags here]

It's probably stress, IMO from after the scandal broke. Jill and Jessa had their hubbies and homes to escape too, poor Jinger is stuck in the house of horrors

 

I lose weight really easily when I am stressed so it doesn't surprise me that she lost some too- and she was thin to begin with so it pushed her from skinny to REALLY skinny. 

[Clemgo3165]

My name has a "Y" where when spelled more mainstream is an "I".  I have spent my life explaining how to spell it.  It is just a five letter name, but still hard for people even when I spell it very slowly.  And some people I know cannot seem to get it right.  I used to want to change my name to "Jane Doe"... but that would lead to another set of problems.

 

I have the exact same problem, same letter, same 5 letters, I'm even named after a President's daughter (who is the former first lady of the State I live in) but yet nobody can spell it. Compound it with a last name that's also 5 letters long with a "Y" in the same location and, even though it's not at all unusual, nobody can spell it either. I gave up on ever having a prescription filled at CVS because no matter how many times I told them that Y was the 2nd letter in my last name, they'd invariably head for the E's. That said, I love my name and I love my Y's and wouldn't trade them no matter how many people get it wrong.

[kokapetl]

I wonder if the sister-mom teams have just collapsed with Jill and Jessa leaving. In Jana's thread, there was discussion about her fragility. In the Other Duggars thread, there have been comments about how some of the younger children appear neglected. Did the Josh scandal throw the family into much more disarray than many of us imagined? Is Jinger in charge of more than she can manage? Is she depressed at the loss of a close sister? Does she need some mothering herself (which, of course, MEchelle would not do)? Call me crazy, but I think even teenagers need involved parents caring for them. [insert sarcasm tags here]

When Jill and Jessa got married, aside from removing two sister moms, it also split up two sister mom 'alliances', and those remaining in the TTH, Jana and Jinger, were the passive halves of their alliances. I wouldn't be surprised if either or both were struggling at the extra duties and lack of leadership, and that's without the stress of the molestation scandal added.