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The Lonely Js Club: James, Jackson & Johannah

SpaghettiTuesdays

By SpaghettiTuesdays
in Counting On

Scarlett45
Message added by Scarlett45,

Discussing the charges against Jana is fine, but do not post any information that reveals her address/contact information- even if said documents are public (i.e. a part of court proceedings.)

Discussing charges against Jana is NOT a jumping off point to speculate on other instances abuse/neglect etc towards the M-children or to elaborate on Josh's conviction and potential victims.  

 

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Ijustwantsomechips
Ijustwantsomechips

Maybe Jana needs her own thread as a token of the respect she’ll never garner as a single woman in Gothardland.  

andromeda331
andromeda331

How about both hop in the plane close the door really quickly and fly off.  Abbie: "Where are we going?" JD: Cayman Islands. We're elope. And we're not coming back! Abbie: Wait we need

BitterApple
BitterApple

Wow, so this is what, the fourth guy to publicly release a statement denying involvement with Jana? That must be doing wonders for her self-esteem.  These guys are starting to piss me off, though

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Tikichick

Tikichick

9 hours ago, Zella said:

Jeremy's notes: "Needs more sneakers and expensive ice cream."

IMO that ice cream is beyond expensive, exorbitant even.  It's not as if, OMG, I can't afford that, rather being able to justify trying it as some kind of special celebration splurge as opposed to a Tuesday night indulgence. 

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Heathen

Heathen

12 hours ago, MargeGunderson said:

I find Philip creepier. I don’t know why, and I’m vaguely ashamed I’ve spent any time comparing Rodriguii in my head.

I think with Timmy, it's the bleached blond hair and dark eyebrows, and the fact that he reminds me so much of Kiefer Sutherland in Lost Boys, a role that has always upset me and freaked me out. 

 

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BitterApple

BitterApple

1 hour ago, Heathen said:

I think with Timmy, it's the bleached blond hair and dark eyebrows, and the fact that he reminds me so much of Kiefer Sutherland in Lost Boys, a role that has always upset me and freaked me out. 

 

Omg, Lost Boys is my jam! Now all I'm ever going to see is the vampire version of Timbits!

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Jynnan tonnix

Jynnan tonnix

3 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Omg, Lost Boys is my jam! Now all I'm ever going to see is the vampire version of Timbits!

I keep meaning to ask...where did the nickname Timbits come from? I vaguely remember wondering about it a while back, then, I think I "got" the joke once, and found it hilarious, but then never could remember it or figure it out ever after. So maybe I dreamed that part.

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MargeGunderson

MargeGunderson

1 minute ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

I keep meaning to ask...where did the nickname Timbits come from? I vaguely remember wondering about it a while back, then, I think I "got" the joke once, and found it hilarious, but then never could remember it or figure it out ever after. So maybe I dreamed that part.

Because Mommy’s got Tim by his bits? I don’t know if that was the original reason but that’s how I’ve always interpreted it.

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sheshark

sheshark

11 hours ago, Heathen said:

I think with Timmy, it's the bleached blond hair and dark eyebrows, and the fact that he reminds me so much of Kiefer Sutherland in Lost Boys, a role that has always upset me and freaked me out. 

 

My kids live in Santa Cruz, CA where “Lost Boys” was filmed.  The sound of kids screaming on the boardwalk rides can be heard all over the town, just like in the movie.  It is eerie. 😱

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CalicoKitty

CalicoKitty

As I remember the picture, it was an attempt to make the crotch area not as noticeable.  But she erased so much of the area that she took most of his thighs, too.  There was this huge space with about 3 inches of thigh left, with his normal-sized legs attached.  It brought more attention to the "area" than if she had just left it alone.  It must be exhausting to be so virtuous.  

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Heathen

Heathen

What normal mother looks at a photo of her adult or almost-adult son and thinks, "Gotta make the crotch smaller?" What normal mother looks at a photo of her adult son and intentionally looks at his crotch at all? 

Jill is so weird, she outweirds just about all the other fundie mothers put together, and that's a damned hard thing to do. 

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emmawoodhouse

emmawoodhouse

21 minutes ago, Zella said:

But he was probably too busy getting betrothed to Katey to police Jer! 

Nah, Jana probably set everything up. All Jed! had to do was show up at God's appointed time. 🙄

Seriously, I doubt these two saw much of each other before the move to Arkansas. As for Jer's courtship, remember I saw a Duggar plane in Nebraska about a month ago. Sinner Twin is a pilot....

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Zella

Zella

Just now, emmawoodhouse said:

Nah, Jana probably set everything up. All Jed! had to do was show up at God's appointed time. 🙄

Seriously, I doubt these two saw much of each other before the move to Arkansas. As for Jer's courtship, remember I saw a Duggar plane in Nebraska about a month ago. Sinner Twin is a pilot....

That actually does sound very on-brand for Jed! LOL

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Churchhoney

Churchhoney

(edited)
11 hours ago, SMama said:

I hope not because it would suck if Jana chaperones her younger siblings, raised/still raising her siblings, and is the default babysitter for her nieces and nephews. 

I think she does do that, though.

I can't remember which Howler it was that she was pictured with biking around the neighborhood last year some time. But the picture seemed pretty clearly to imply that he wanted to go out for an extensive bike ride, so she went along because you can't go anywhere on your own.......    Similarly for many photos we saw during Jed!'s busy year of selling himself. Jer was right by his side but so was Jana. Time and again. At event after event. Looked pretty clear that they didn't fully trust the twins to police each other. Big sis had to be along, too.  

Of course, if she has a tendency to boredom or just likes to  gad around, this probably isn't the  worst thing for her.

Nevertheless, I think the signs are that she has a lot of duties besides looking after the house and feeding everybody.

Chaperoning all and sundry if they decide to go out somewhere, participating in a lot of the Howlers' reno projects as a kind of worksite chaperone, giving special classes to the still-in-school crowd, holding and playing with and probably feeding and changing all the "grandbabies" when their parents hang out at the TTH or drop the kids off there, etc. I expect whatever the Lost Girls know about housekeeping and cooking comes from Jana's tuition, too -- while she probably had to mostly learn it on her own, since I doubt Meeechelle ever helped the Original Sister Moms (good name for an ex-fundie all-woman band, by the way) actually learn much. 

They're all used to Jana doing everything.

And we know JB and M are going to do very little (if any) of this stuff, even though it's all needed because of the nutso "principles" on which they operate. And  even though they make a huge deal about how parents are the ones constantly guiding, protecting, teaching and caring for their children -- from conception until forever. (a formulation that leaves the despised single people like Jana forever unmentioned, unsung and meaningless in the history of their world, no matter how much they do to keep it running)

When to you your kids mostly represent just the number of godly feathers you have in your super-godly cap, you apparently don't feel all that responsible for the vast amounts of guiding, protecting, teaching and caring a bazillion kids (who don't go to school) require. That's why God made some of the kids older than the others. And why he made some of those older ones girls. 

Edited by Churchhoney
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rue721

rue721

I think Jana is JB's lieutenant, and as such, she's probably got a fair amount of both power and responsibility within the household.

I don't think she's especially put-upon at this point of her life, though. She doesn't have a job, has never been in school, and isn't seriously pursuing a demanding vocation, like art or music or sports. So she's accountable to nobody outside the family, can make her own schedule, has no deadlines or complex demands on her... I dunno, as far as adult responsibilities go, I don't think Jana really has a lot. Not compared to the average 30-something for sure. Tagging along on her little brother's bike rides or being one of the supervising adults in the house when the grandkids are over is kind of annoying, but I don't really think that sort of thing is a big imposition, especially since it's not like she's got anything else going on.

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Churchhoney

Churchhoney

(edited)
1 hour ago, madpsych78 said:

OK, I don't dispute that Jana has a lot of tasks at home, and we've seen some of those through social media. But there are still a lot of kids left, and there comes a point where Jana just cannot be in two places at once. 

Certainly true.

But mine is the rant of someone who thinks that at this point in all their lives Jana shouldn't have any tasks at home!

Of course, I don't think she should live at home at this point either. (or be uneducated or unfamiliar with gainful paycheck-producing employment in enterprises that aren't run by her parents and unaware that at her age she should be steering her own ship instead of mainly doing assigned chores for a couple of nutbars who were too crazy about producing babies 😁)

Her parents aren't yet elderly. And they have money.

If they wanted to have 19 kids plus a foster kid and want now to have tons of grandbabies in their house all day, they should have to do the lion's share of the work involved in that and pay people to do the rest of it, in my opinion!

I'm sure they participate in some of the chores and the interaction-with-all-those-children. But since it seems to be a big event when Meeechelle puts on an apron or even goes out to lunch with a group of her own children, I doubt they do much of the work or provide more than a minimal amount of the kids' socialization.

And if those things aren't important enough for a couple of able-bodied adults to spend their time on, when they're the ones whose "hey hey heying" created this monster mob of wandering bodies, I think their kids (or, to be realistic, their unmarried daughters) should also have a choice about whether they want to do it. And we know that the daughters are conditioned to believe that they have no choice. That this is what their life is and is supposed to be. 

Of course, I'm sure Jana sees herself as being always engaged in the right and proper work for her station. I'm sure she would vehemently disagree with my rant, if she ever saw it.  🙃

But.....just because she's ignorant of her right to her own autonomy doesn't make her ignorance acceptable, in my opinion.  And -- also not acceptable to me -- that because a Duggarling is unmarried they have less right than their married siblings to live a life of their own outside the TTH.....

End of rant, more or less. 

Today I just don't feel like normalizing a system in which a woman over 30 most likely spends considerably more time than her able-bodied mother doing every conceivable kind of shit for the oodles of children and grandbabies that her mother-the-high-school-cheerleader happily hey-hey-heyed her way to. Or a system in which an over-age-30 person in the 21st-century U.S. is conditioned by her family, church and cult to believe she really has no choice in whether she takes this role or doesn't! 

ETA: I think she may well have nothing else going on because she was conditioned to believe that single women risk going straight to hell if they step out from under Daddy's umbrella to go to college, get a job or live on their own rather than stay home and do their parents' chores. To me, that's not a picture of a person who ever knew she really had a choice. 

Some slaves  in this world have always been comparatively well treated. But a comparatively well-treated slave is still a slave. When somebody keeps you from claiming full autonomy you're really stuck in Plato's cave staring at those shadows on the wall. When those people in the cave get turned around so they can see the real world outside the entrance, they're happy -- and quite different people! 

 

Edited by Churchhoney
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madpsych78

madpsych78

16 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

Certainly true.

But mine is the rant of someone who thinks that at this point in all their lives Jana shouldn't have any tasks at home!

Of course, I don't think she should live at home at this point either. (or be uneducated or unfamiliar with gainful paycheck-producing employment in enterprises that aren't run by her parents and unaware that at her age she should be steering her own ship instead of mainly doing assigned chores for a couple of nutbars who were too crazy about producing babies 😁)

Her parents aren't yet elderly. And they have money.

If they wanted to have 19 kids plus a foster kid and want now to have tons of grandbabies in their house all day, they should have to do the lion's share of the work involved in that and pay people to do the rest of it, in my opinion!

I'm sure they participate in some of the chores and the interaction-with-all-those-children. But since it seems to be a big event when Meeechelle puts on an apron or even goes out to lunch with a group of her own children, I doubt they do much of the work or provide more than a minimal amount of the kids' socialization.

And if those things aren't important enough for a couple of able-bodied adults to spend their time on, when they're the ones whose "hey hey heying" created this monster mob of wandering bodies, I think their kids (or, to be realistic, their unmarried daughters) should also have a choice about whether they want to do it. And we know that the daughters are conditioned to believe that they have no choice. That this is what their life is and is supposed to be. 

Of course, I'm sure Jana sees herself as being always engaged in the right and proper work for her station. I'm sure she would vehemently disagree with my rant, if she ever saw it.  🙃

But.....just because she's ignorant of her right to her own autonomy doesn't make her ignorance acceptable, in my opinion.  And -- also not acceptable to me -- that because a Duggarling is unmarried they have less right than their married siblings to live a life of their own outside the TTH.....

End of rant, more or less. 

Today I just don't feel like normalizing a system in which a woman over 30 most likely spends considerably more time than her able-bodied mother doing every conceivable kind of shit for the oodles of children and grandbabies that her mother-the-high-school-cheerleader happily hey-hey-heyed her way to. Or a system in which an over-age-30 person in the 21st-century U.S. is conditioned by her family, church and cult to believe she really has no choice in whether she takes this role or doesn't! 

ETA: I think she may well have nothing else going on because she was conditioned to believe that single women risk going straight to hell if they step out from under Daddy's umbrella to go to college, get a job or live on their own rather than stay home and do their parents' chores. To me, that's not a picture of a person who ever knew she really had a choice. 

Some slaves  in this world have always been comparatively well treated. But a comparatively well-treated slave is still a slave. When somebody keeps you from claiming full autonomy you're really stuck in Plato's cave staring at those shadows on the wall. When those people in the cave get turned around so they can see the real world outside the entrance, they're happy -- and quite different people! 

Well my point is that I think it is pushing it to say that Jana is an accountability partner to both Jed and Jer because they don't fully trust the twins to be accountability partners to one another. I would think that if she spent time with them during Jed! activities last year, it was because she wanted to, not because she had to. I don't doubt Jana serves that role with the younger kids (i.e., Josie) and even the grandkids at times, but I just don't think that Jana is the only one who serves that accountability partner role. 

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rue721

rue721

I don't have any problem with Jana contributing to the household or being expected to contribute. She's an adult, that's her home and her family, she should pull her weight. From what we've seen, it doesn't seem very burdensome. Tagging along with her brother on a bike ride, taking a CPR class, babysitting for half an hour in the afternoon. I don't think it would be better for her to be swanning around as lady of the manor while paid servants took care of the few responsibilities she does have. She's already infantalized and "sheltered" enough.

Her autonomy and lack thereof is a separate issue, I think. And even there... just because she's had a weird childhood and makes weird choices doesn't make those choices invalid.

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Churchhoney

Churchhoney

(edited)
38 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I don't have any problem with Jana contributing to the household or being expected to contribute.

That makes sense to me right up to the point where I'm convinced that her mother -- who chose to have the 19 kids (and would have spat out more, given the chance)-- contributes less and has contributed less for many years! 

And that for years the poisonous thought poured into Jana's ears was that only hellbound single females leave their parents' households to go to college or get a job outside the home! 

If I thought she'd ever heard from her parents that she had a choice of the alternate activities you mention, or if I thought Meeechelle had ever pulled her weight in that household except for the continual birthing or was willing to do so now, I'd agree with you completely! 

Edited by Churchhoney
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cmr2014

cmr2014

1 hour ago, Churchhoney said:

Certainly true.

But mine is the rant of someone who thinks that at this point in all their lives Jana shouldn't have any tasks at home!

Of course, I don't think she should live at home at this point either. (or be uneducated or unfamiliar with gainful paycheck-producing employment in enterprises that aren't run by her parents and unaware that at her age she should be steering her own ship instead of mainly doing assigned chores for a couple of nutbars who were too crazy about producing babies 😁)

Her parents aren't yet elderly. And they have money.

If they wanted to have 19 kids plus a foster kid and want now to have tons of grandbabies in their house all day, they should have to do the lion's share of the work involved in that and pay people to do the rest of it, in my opinion!

I'm sure they participate in some of the chores and the interaction-with-all-those-children. But since it seems to be a big event when Meeechelle puts on an apron or even goes out to lunch with a group of her own children, I doubt they do much of the work or provide more than a minimal amount of the kids' socialization.

And if those things aren't important enough for a couple of able-bodied adults to spend their time on, when they're the ones whose "hey hey heying" created this monster mob of wandering bodies, I think their kids (or, to be realistic, their unmarried daughters) should also have a choice about whether they want to do it. And we know that the daughters are conditioned to believe that they have no choice. That this is what their life is and is supposed to be. 

Of course, I'm sure Jana sees herself as being always engaged in the right and proper work for her station. I'm sure she would vehemently disagree with my rant, if she ever saw it.  🙃

But.....just because she's ignorant of her right to her own autonomy doesn't make her ignorance acceptable, in my opinion.  And -- also not acceptable to me -- that because a Duggarling is unmarried they have less right than their married siblings to live a life of their own outside the TTH.....

End of rant, more or less. 

Today I just don't feel like normalizing a system in which a woman over 30 most likely spends considerably more time than her able-bodied mother doing every conceivable kind of shit for the oodles of children and grandbabies that her mother-the-high-school-cheerleader happily hey-hey-heyed her way to. Or a system in which an over-age-30 person in the 21st-century U.S. is conditioned by her family, church and cult to believe she really has no choice in whether she takes this role or doesn't! 

ETA: I think she may well have nothing else going on because she was conditioned to believe that single women risk going straight to hell if they step out from under Daddy's umbrella to go to college, get a job or live on their own rather than stay home and do their parents' chores. To me, that's not a picture of a person who ever knew she really had a choice. 

Some slaves  in this world have always been comparatively well treated. But a comparatively well-treated slave is still a slave. When somebody keeps you from claiming full autonomy you're really stuck in Plato's cave staring at those shadows on the wall. When those people in the cave get turned around so they can see the real world outside the entrance, they're happy -- and quite different people! 

 

I absolutely agree with you. Given our history in the US, I think we tend to focus too much on the horrors of slavery -- the beatings, children ripped from their parents, etc. The fact is that house slaves were just as much slaves as field slaves. Slavery isn't okay if the person isn't beaten or mistreated.

Women all over the world live in literal slavery -- but we're unwilling to call it that. When a man sells his daughter to another man, and she has no recourse and must have sex with that man, and work in his household, she's a slave, not a "wife" no matter how well or poorly he treats her. Slavery is having no agency over your own body or your own future and having no recourse.

While Jana and her siblings aren't literal slaves, they're pretty close. They all have had a lifetime of brainwashing with little to no outside contact to counteract what he's told them.. Jana may be free to leave at any time -- but does she really know that? Does she have any way of imagining what that would look like? I think that Jill and Jinger are the most dangerous vectors of outside information into his family and JB is keeping them under surveillance whenever they're around.

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Zella

Zella

(edited)
11 minutes ago, cmr2014 said:

I absolutely agree with you. Given our history in the US, I think we tend to focus too much on the horrors of slavery -- the beatings, children ripped from their parents, etc. The fact is that house slaves were just as much slaves as field slaves. Slavery isn't okay if the person isn't beaten or mistreated.

Women all over the world live in literal slavery -- but we're unwilling to call it that. When a man sells his daughter to another man, and she has no recourse and must have sex with that man, and work in his household, she's a slave, not a "wife" no matter how well or poorly he treats her. Slavery is having no agency over your own body or your own future and having no recourse.

While Jana and her siblings aren't literal slaves, they're pretty close. They all have had a lifetime of brainwashing with little to no outside contact to counteract what he's told them.. Jana may be free to leave at any time -- but does she really know that? Does she have any way of imagining what that would look like? I think that Jill and Jinger are the most dangerous vectors of outside information into his family and JB is keeping them under surveillance whenever they're around.

I agree with everything you said except that Jinger is a vector for outside information for the family. From what I've seen, I don't think L.A. has introduced any substantive subversiveness into the Vuolo fold. The differences between Jeremy and his in-laws are superficial and cosmetic, really. I don't think Jeremy and Jim Bob like each other on a personal level because they are too similar to each other in some ways, but I don't think he really regards Jeremy or Jinger as a corrupting influence. 

Edited by Zella
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cmr2014

cmr2014

2 minutes ago, Zella said:

I agree with everything you said except that Jinger is a vector for outside information for the family. From what I've seen, I don't think L.A. has introduced any substantive subversiveness into the Vuolo fold. The differences between Jeremy and his in-laws are superficial and cosmetic, really. I don't think Jeremy and Jim Bob like each other on a personal level because they are too similar to each other in some ways, but I don't think he really regards Jeremy or Jinger as a corrupting influence. 

I think this could go either way. Jeremy is definitely in the fold -- he has that LLC in Arkansas which suggests that he's involved in some way in "Duggar Enterprises" and there's no outward sign of them straying off message. I do think, though, that they're a subject of concern. I don't think he sees them as subversive or dangerous like Jill and Derick, but more of a potential problem -- like when Josh and Anna went to DC. I think he wants to keep and eye on them and have some control over them having unsupervised access to the TTH.

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Zella

Zella

Just now, cmr2014 said:

I think this could go either way. Jeremy is definitely in the fold -- he has that LLC in Arkansas which suggests that he's involved in some way in "Duggar Enterprises" and there's no outward sign of them straying off message. I do think, though, that they're a subject of concern. I don't think he sees them as subversive or dangerous like Jill and Derick, but more of a potential problem -- like when Josh and Anna went to DC. I think he wants to keep and eye on them and have some control over them having unsupervised access to the TTH.

I think their biggest potential concern for their family is they seem to be going off the rails, and I can see how that would be a problem for the Duggars potentially from a PR perspective. (I almost called them the Firm like the royal family refers to itself and I laughed and laughed and laughed. 😄 ) I don't think that the Vuolos would be wholesale banned from unsupervised access. 

Derick is on the shitlist because he called out Jim Bob more so than any lifestyle changes he made. (I am sure them sending Izzy to school wasn't well received, but I think that was actually the result of the estrangement rather than the cause of it.) Jeremy so far at least seems to know to carry the party line. 

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cmr2014

cmr2014

12 minutes ago, Zella said:

I think their biggest potential concern for their family is they seem to be going off the rails, and I can see how that would be a problem for the Duggars potentially from a PR perspective. (I almost called them the Firm like the royal family refers to itself and I laughed and laughed and laughed. 😄 ) I don't think that the Vuolos would be wholesale banned from unsupervised access. 

Derick is on the shitlist because he called out Jim Bob more so than any lifestyle changes he made. (I am sure them sending Izzy to school wasn't well received, but I think that was actually the result of the estrangement rather than the cause of it.) Jeremy so far at least seems to know to carry the party line. 

I don't know that they think that the Vuolos are off the rails. A lot of what we comment on probably doesn't matter to JB. They are engaging in some poorly planned "business" ventures -- that's 100% on brand for the Duggars. Jeremy isn't working for a paycheck from some godless outsider, he's starting his own business.

Jeremy seems to be completely clueless as Jinger struggles with a toddler and a newborn? 100% on brand for the Duggars. He takes a bunch of photos of Jinger captioning them with hearts and smiley faces and talk of how wonderful she is without lifting a finger to help her -- 100% on brand.

Jinger/Jeremy was the last marriage outside of the Gothard fold, and JB has taken a much more active part in marrying off his kids since then -- that may or may not be a coincidence. I do think it matters -- a lot -- to JB that MacArthur is Jeremy's headship and not JB. I don't think he wants any more of his kids moving into the MacArthur fold. Jeremy may be toeing the line, and there's no active conflict between them, but I don't think it's as comfortable as it is with Austin.

I agree that Derick's transgression had to do with questioning JB's authority. Pants and public school are one thing, but questioning JB's control is something else.

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Zella

Zella

4 minutes ago, cmr2014 said:

I don't know that they think that the Vuolos are off the rails. A lot of what we comment on probably doesn't matter to JB. They are engaging in some poorly planned "business" ventures -- that's 100% on brand for the Duggars. Jeremy isn't working for a paycheck from some godless outsider, he's starting his own business.

Jeremy seems to be completely clueless as Jinger struggles with a toddler and a newborn? 100% on brand for the Duggars. He takes a bunch of photos of Jinger captioning them with hearts and smiley faces and talk of how wonderful she is without lifting a finger to help her -- 100% on brand.

Jinger/Jeremy was the last marriage outside of the Gothard fold, and JB has taken a much more active part in marrying off his kids since then -- that may or may not be a coincidence. I do think it matters -- a lot -- to JB that MacArthur is Jeremy's headship and not JB. I don't think he wants any more of his kids moving into the MacArthur fold. Jeremy may be toeing the line, and there's no active conflict between them, but I don't think it's as comfortable as it is with Austin.

I agree that Derick's transgression had to do with questioning JB's authority. Pants and public school are one thing, but questioning JB's control is something else.

That is a good point about MacArthur and not one I had thought of. Yes I could see Jim Bob not being overly fond of someone else looming so large instead of him. 

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GeeGolly

GeeGolly

5 minutes ago, floridamom said:

So, Jed is getting married this Saturday?

The secrecy is so weird. It makes me wonder if the Duggars and/or TLC are trying a new strategy and are keeping things on the down low to increase viewers. Maybe TLC has warned them if their numbers decrease anymore, they're gone.

Everything in the past was leaked so much, TLC resorted to putting out shorts of Duggar events on their website, before the episodes were aired on TV.

 

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Scarlett45
Message added by Scarlett45,

Discussing the charges against Jana is fine, but do not post any information that reveals her address/contact information- even if said documents are public (i.e. a part of court proceedings.)

Discussing charges against Jana is NOT a jumping off point to speculate on other instances abuse/neglect etc towards the M-children or to elaborate on Josh's conviction and potential victims.  

 

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