S03.E07: The Unveiling/ S03.E08: Children of Wrath

[Red Bridey]

I hate Madison.  HATE HATE HATE her.  That's all I have to say because I still have 40 minutes of the second hour to get through.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Red Bridey
can't type

[FishyJoe]

I have a hard time believing this whole water BS. Without hundreds of millions of people taking showers and flushing toilets, there should be water everywhere. 

[Razzberry]

I'm not even sure where they're supposed be (I've missed many episodes).  Mexico or So.Cal?  I'm sure they have water, so I'd stay put too,  especially since crazy cult leader is dead, Alicia's doing the son, and Madison seems to be on good terms with Greyeyes despite him killing her husband.    I'm definitely in the minority but I think Madison gets a bad rap.   I've always liked Kim Dickens 'acting style', if you will - in a sea of overly-emoting actors she's a breath of fresh air.   Whether that means she's not a good actress, I don't know, but it fits the Madison character,  who doesn't let emotions rule her head.   She cracks me up.

[diebartdie]

16 hours ago, SimoneS said:

 I get Walker's sentimental attachment to that land, but

First Nation/ Native American / Indians don't have a "sentimental attachment" to the land, it is a far deeper connection than I think any non-native person can comprehend. Otto saw it as a "sentimental attachment", Otto was a white supremacist piece of shit.

Edited July 11, 2017 by diebartdie
has anyone seen my hat?

[LocimusPrime]

Can't stand Madison, nick, and Ophelia! 

• They messed up Stand by me 
• didnt like the native Americans 
• hated Madison 
• hated nick 
• hated Ophelia 
• liked strand 

[CloudySky]

15 hours ago, Straycat80 said:

I wonder if the next season is going to be more of these people fighting over land in the middle of nowhere, where they have a water problem, are eventually going to run out of supplies and it looks hotter than hell all the time. Some of the prepper people are still living in tents. 

At least on TWD they move around from time to time to different places where there might be a chance at better shelter and finding supplies. 

This show is dumb. 

The water problem is manageable for now because they have a well. It could become a problem if it stays dry too long now that they have the native Americans joining them but even then, they can go out and find some. They have cars and horses. And that dam is only a couple of hours away. They could even set up some trade deal with that group. It's not an insurmountable problem.

I doubt they will run out of resources soon. Did you forget about that gigantic warehouse? Even with that many people, they are set for at least a year. And they have crops and animals...They are basically living on a bigger version of Hershell's farm. And remember, after TWD characters lost that, they nearly died because moving around and scavenging for supplies was that hard.

 

Some viewers just love to complain about nothing.

[diebartdie]

You know what was really REALLY stupid? The first time Ophelia was at the Otto compound, they put her IN THE WAREHOUSE, where allllll the guns, ammo and FOOD were stored. If I had been in Ophelia's position, even if I didnt have any poison with me, I would have been pooping in as much of the food as possible. At the very least, once returned to the Walker compound, she would have been able to give a very accurate, detailed inventory of exactly how many weapons there were as well as a great map to that warehouse.

[lezlers]

On ‎7‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 4:14 AM, oakville said:

Madison was stupid to try and invade Walker's camp to rescue Alicia. Jake & Walker had  a deal & they knew each other for a long time. She created chaos for no reason. Madison has wrecked every group she has joined since leaving L.A. She even left the gate open in LA so her neighbors would get attacked.

I actually asked my husband a few times when we were watching this "wait are we supposed to LIKE Madison?  Because she is totally insufferable."  She constantly puts others' lives at risk for her own selfish needs.  There was ZERO reason to invade Walker's camp.  She did the same thing with turning on that neon sign at the hotel.  She keeps endangering lives to rescue her children who don't WANT to be rescued, it's infuriating.  And her elbowing her way in to positions of power everywhere she goes also makes me want to strangle her.  She just marches in and starts making demands with all of her righteous indignation, not even realizing that SHE'S become "the bad guy" more often than not.  Her revealing her secret at the end shed a little bit of light on to why she behaves the way she does but it didn't really make her any more likable.  If anything, it just showed that she's unbalanced and dangerous, which aren't really great qualities for a protagonist.   I mean, by the end of the episodes I was actually rooting for Walker's side, which I'm pretty sure I wasn't supposed to be doing.  How many people are going to die because of her reckless behavior?  She's not fit to lead any sort of group.

[lezlers]

14 hours ago, JackONeill said:

I know they have a huge basement/warehouse/whatever full of food and guns, and I know they gave Walker (not the Texas Ranger) some water, but does the ranch have a replenishable water supply? If not, with the number of people they now have, they're going to have problems.

I don't know why Madison is so insistent on staying. It's a big sprawling heap of land with all kinds of places that walkers (the infected) could come swarming in. Sure, there are people and weapons, but we saw how well things went after the Ofelia-poisoning episode.

They had a conversation about a well in the episode (I believe it was between Jeremiah and the older son.)  Their supply will eventually be determined by rainfall, which doesn't seem very promising out in the middle of the desert.

[kj4ever]

15 hours ago, JackONeill said:

I know they have a huge basement/warehouse/whatever full of food and guns, and I know they gave Walker (not the Texas Ranger) some water, but does the ranch have a replenishable water supply? If not, with the number of people they now have, they're going to have problems.

I don't know why Madison is so insistent on staying. It's a big sprawling heap of land with all kinds of places that walkers (the infected) could come swarming in. Sure, there are people and weapons, but we saw how well things went after the Ofelia-poisoning episode.

I don't think they've ever seen a huge swarm of them yet.  I know I keep forgetting they are only a couple of months in to this since they decided to make them sooooo much smarter than our Georgia crew and figure every last thing out in like a few weeks.  I think in Mothership time Rick is still in his coma at this point.

I'm sure that's what will happen though, a big ass swarm of them is going to rain down on the ranch.

Is it to much to hope that they kill Madison?  Are the geek boys that in love with the character that they don't realize most people want the "hero" of their show dead?  I mean I actually didn't hate this episode and for the first time in a long time saw hope for the show, except for when Madison was on the screen.

The brother dynamic could be intriguing, especially now that the Father is dead.  Walker was an interesting character and even Ophelia, who I thought was a non-entity before brought it..  If they killed Madison and somehow got Strand and Daniel to the ranch we'd be in for some entertainment.  I'm assuming most of the people who are on the ranch share Otto's views so the tension with Indians moving in should be palpable.

So much opportunity, but I think they are dead set on Madison is a bad ass and a Rick.  Hell I'd even let them keep Nick, and at this point he is driving me crazy too and I used to like him.  That was probably because he threw deuces to Madison...lol

[indeed]

Yes, they have their own water supply (well/reservoir) with a lot of water...for now.  But it hasn't rained in like 5 years (or was it months)?

So, at the end the sons rode off with their father's body to bury/add to pit of the newly dead and Madison took the head to Walker.  Then the dramatic music continued to play while she walked over to a wood coffin in the barn.  What am I missing here?

Loved Nick's new hair (boy, does he look young, though!).  Hopefully, it lasts a while (but not so sure from the new clip).

[diebartdie]

1 hour ago, lezlers said:

by the end of the episodes I was actually rooting for Walker's side, which I'm pretty sure I wasn't supposed to be doing.

I was on Walker's side from the beginning.

[misstwpherecool]

No wonder Nick made such a good junky. Apparently qualities like manipulation, lying, cover up, hiding etc are family traits.  Nick is a sanctimonious sober junky  putting a bullet in Otto.

Disappointed they had Strand destroy the boat. Even if wasn't used in a story right away-No escape from Planet of the Apes salvaging the ship to travel where ever.

The question is will or what third party will threaten the ranch and tribe. How will Strand treat Ophelia if he runs across her.

[nitrofishblue]

I must be in the minority since I really don't like the character Walker. I find him dull and one dimensional. All he wants to do is kill the white man everything else be damn. Between him and Madison I really am losing interst in what happens to them. The writing has been so bad it is becoming hard to stomach.

[lezlers]

15 hours ago, Razzberry said:

I'm not even sure where they're supposed be (I've missed many episodes).  Mexico or So.Cal?  I'm sure they have water, so I'd stay put too,  especially since crazy cult leader is dead, Alicia's doing the son, and Madison seems to be on good terms with Greyeyes despite him killing her husband.    I'm definitely in the minority but I think Madison gets a bad rap.   I've always liked Kim Dickens 'acting style', if you will - in a sea of overly-emoting actors she's a breath of fresh air.   Whether that means she's not a good actress, I don't know, but it fits the Madison character,  who doesn't let emotions rule her head.   She cracks me up.

I respectfully disagree that Madison doesn't let emotions rule her head.  She's constantly putting others in danger because she's panicked about her kids.  At the hotel with flashing the neon sign and then with "rescuing" Alicia, who was in no need of rescue.  Her problem is her emotions are completely self serving.  When it comes to anyone outside of her immediate family circle, she becomes a reckless sociopath.

[SnarkyTart]

4 hours ago, kj4ever said:

Is it to much to hope that they kill Madison?  Are the geek boys that in love with the character that they don't realize most people want the "hero" of their show dead?

Yes, I think you're right about this.  The show has pre-ordained that Madison is the female badass Rick Grimes; fans, viewers and ratings be damned.   That was confirmed for me during the Talking Dead episode following, when they showed that little text segment of behind the scenes tidbits.  One of the stories was that Alicia has lost so much, but the one thing she was determined to keep was her butterfly knife, which she really enjoyed.  She fought to keep it, but she lost.  (As we saw in 301, she gave her butterfly knife to freaking Madison!)  It could seem that the showrunners were threatened by the idea of Alicia having a trademark weapon (like Daryl's bow or Michonne's katana), or that viewers might start talking about Alicia's potential badassery, instead of talking about Madison Madison Madison.  Can't have that!!

Edited July 11, 2017 by SnarkyTart

[gaPeach]

I just don't get the direction of this show.  Its a show about ZOMBIES not turf wars..........I try to care about main characters but usually just want to see them die....

I have read some great zombie books that would make a much better show than this crap.  Check out Zombie Road books 1&2 by David Simpson on Amazon.  Its a bunch of truckers that figure out the AZ pretty quickly and total trick up their trucks to mow down zombie hoards.  Now that would make a great series and more realistic.  I just can't get into this story or the characters at all.

But I will keep watching because it's so bad it's good.  And more importantly the comments here make it all worth while.

[Bongo Fury]

They have plenty of water, remember the lake Alicia jumped into?

 

And yeah,this show is crap. Comic book quality writing, shallow one dimensional characters, simplistic conflicts. And the zombies are few and far between. Thank god for snark.

[Raven1707]

The Sunday Cable Ratings are in for "The Unveiling" and "Children of Wrath":

The final two “Fear the Walking Dead” episodes of the summer were in line with recent ratings. The 9 p.m. episode drew a 0.9 [2.621 million], and the 10 p.m. one came in at 0.8 [2.402 million].

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/daily-ratings/sunday-cable-ratings-july-9-2017/

And here we have the Cable Live + Same Day ratings for the first half of Season 3:

06-04-17 “Eye of the Beholder” 3.109 million
06-04-17 “The New Frontier” 2.698 million
06-11-17 “Teotwawki” 2.504 million
06-18-17 “100" 2.396 million
06-25-17 “Burning in Water, Drowning in Flame” 2.499 million
07-02-17 “Red Dirt” 2.193 million
07-09-17 “The Unveiling” 2.621 million
07-09-17 “Children of Wrath” 2.402 million

[mightysparrow]

10 hours ago, indeed said:

So, at the end the sons rode off with their father's body to bury/add to pit of the newly dead and Madison took the head to Walker.  Then the dramatic music continued to play while she walked over to a wood coffin in the barn.  What am I missing here?

I can't believe that the sons were okay with Madison cutting their father's head off to gift it to Walker?  I mean, they must have noticed their father's head was missing when they took his body to be buried?  They must have noticed his corpse was a bit...light?

[TattleTeeny]

I'm no Madison fan but I feel like she comes off better with certain characters, even if I don't necessarily agree with what they're doing. I think I saw more of a backbone and a resolve that actually made sense (again, whether or not I thought whatever they were up to together was the right thing). But considering that the characters I am thinking of are Strand and Salazar, maybe my opinion here is based on the strength of those two actors reflecting onto Madison?

[nitrofishblue]

The writers are trying so hard to push Madison on us as this great female leader. Sorry I sure as hell wouldn't follow her if I was in her group. She doesn't express good leadership. Her way of leading is to have everyone do exactly what she wants and you are damned if you don't. There is no depth to her character. At least Rick inspires his group. This show is turning into nothing but a big soap opera. There seems to be no issue with the walkers, they only show up for a tiny part of the show. None of the people seem to be in trouble from the walkers. At least Strand brings a character I can cheer for!!!!!!! More Strand, less Madison and Walker.

[SyncMaster]

On 7/10/2017 at 7:56 AM, Ocean Chick said:

So can anyone tell me what Travis saw in Madison that convinced him that she was a better partner than Eliza?  Awesome Eliza who could heal people and actually emote?

That's a character that I miss and that I wish were still hanging on in there with this posse.  She'd probably be a half decent leader; Madison certainly isn't.

On 7/10/2017 at 6:35 AM, Juliegirlj said:

I saw the Ophelia trickery right away. So dumb that Nick ( the scrawny addict) survives because he "is strong", yet all the militia died. If someone slipped Anthrax into my kid's drink I would bury them alive to the neck. Alicia is now like a gaunt, emotionless zombie, just like her mom and brother.

Unless Nick ingested far less poison than the other militia members I don't see how he survived either.  I think it was Walker that said the young, and that would include dirty Nick, would be able to recover from the poisoning but that made it seem that the rest of the militia were made up of sexa- or septuagenarians or some shit.

[Yakimaman]

On 7/9/2017 at 11:16 PM, mightysparrow said:

The two minutes and 35 seconds (give or take) with Strand was better than the endless hours we had to endure with Madison and her tots.  Get it together, Show!!!!

Mr. Greyeyes is fucking hot!!

Can't stand him, was hoping for a shark attack when he waded out to the boat.  Could someone teach that moron to breathe through his nose?  Hard to even look at him.

23 hours ago, lezlers said:

I respectfully disagree that Madison doesn't let emotions rule her head.  She's constantly putting others in danger because she's panicked about her kids.  At the hotel with flashing the neon sign and then with "rescuing" Alicia, who was in no need of rescue.  Her problem is her emotions are completely self serving.  When it comes to anyone outside of her immediate family circle, she becomes a reckless sociopath.

Just like Rick Grimes

[Iguessnot]

Finally watched this mess yesterday. The first episode was okay but the second episode stunk. 

I have no idea why this whole ranch of people allow Madison to risk their lives for her stupid children. She doesn't even pretend to care about anyone else and they just follow.

How did that raid of Walker's place take place? I know the militia had been decimated and Madison and gang are all up in there ambushing people and stealing rv's, or driving pickups in, or something, I don't know what was happening, but it made no sense. Then we see Madison's/Otto's group back on the ranch seemingly the next day, but they are kind of just hanging out. They knew a war was coming but no one seem to worry about an instant strike from their previous stupidity.

I didn't give a damn about Madison's story. It was a backstory to a character Kim is unable to portray, so it seemed hollow. She killed a well known, well liked man pre-apocalypse. Exactly how did she get away with that? Yeah, her mom gave her the stink eye, but how was the murder handled? 

I don't know why Nick shot Otto. Otto's speech didn't seem potent enough to me. I also wondered why no one was suspicious of Madison, but my son said she made it look like suicide, but I didn't see that, so I guess I'll have to watch again , ugh.

Did anyone notice when the ranchers were throwing the dead into the pit, that one of the body pitchers looked Indian?  I'm sure there weren't any brown folks at the ranch and I didn't see the ranchers head to the 7-Eleven for day laborers.

[oakville]

7 hours ago, Yakimaman said:

Can't stand him, was hoping for a shark attack when he waded out to the boat.  Could someone teach that moron to breathe through his nose?  Hard to even look at him.

Just like Rick Grimes

Grimes created havoc for the Alexandrians last year when he tried to get the walkers out of the quarry. It was also dumb to start a fight with Negan.

3 hours ago, Iguessnot said:

Finally watched this mess yesterday. The first episode was okay but the second episode stunk. 

I have no idea why this whole ranch of people allow Madison to risk their lives for her stupid children. She doesn't even pretend to care about anyone else and they just follow.

How did that raid of Walker's place take place? I know the militia had been decimated and Madison and gang are all up in there ambushing people and stealing rv's, or driving pickups in, or something, I don't know what was happening, but it made no sense. Then we see Madison's/Otto's group back on the ranch seemingly the next day, but they are kind of just hanging out. They knew a war was coming but no one seem to worry about an instant strike from their previous stupidity.

I didn't give a damn about Madison's story. It was a backstory to a character Kim is unable to portray, so it seemed hollow. She killed a well known, well liked man pre-apocalypse. Exactly how did she get away with that? Yeah, her mom gave her the stink eye, but how was the murder handled? 

I don't know why Nick shot Otto. Otto's speech didn't seem potent enough to me. I also wondered why no one was suspicious of Madison, but my son said she made it look like suicide, but I didn't see that, so I guess I'll have to watch again , ugh.

Did anyone notice when the ranchers were throwing the dead into the pit, that one of the body pitchers looked Indian?  I'm sure there weren't any brown folks at the ranch and I didn't see the ranchers head to the 7-Eleven for day laborers.

It makes no sense to me that Madison would be able to convince the other ranchers to rescue Alicia.

[william0102]

The now confirmed racists though didn't want to rescue Alicia, they wanted to kill Walker/ Taka's people. That's it, we're talking about the same group of people that wanted to kill brown people, justifying it by saying they wanted to see how fast they would turn. Madison just gave them and excuse to do it.

[TattleTeeny]

Quote

Grimes created havoc for the Alexandrians last year when he tried to get the walkers out of the quarry. It was also dumb to start a fight with Negan.

I thought he was trying to get them into the quarry, and that the plan was OK more or less until some unforeseen thing went wonky. And to be fair, he was trying to end a fight with Negan, though it was dumb to just assume that all of this almighty and vicious Negan's folks were ever-so-neatly arranged in just one little hideout. 

Edited July 13, 2017 by TattleTeeny

[LocimusPrime]

On 7/11/2017 at 0:22 PM, nitrofishblue said:

I must be in the minority since I really don't like the character Walker. I find him dull and one dimensional. All he wants to do is kill the white man everything else be damn. Between him and Madison I really am losing interst in what happens to them. The writing has been so bad it is becoming hard to stomach.

I'm with you. Didn't like walker one bit 

Why did Ophelia walk forever looking for an opening in the chain linked fence lol?  With the knife that she had she could have easily bent the fence from the bottom, broken some ties from the posts, or simply climbed over the top using her backpack or clothing to protect her from the barbed wire. 

[indeed]

So, Ofelia never made it to wherever her fiancée was last, right?  She was still on her way.  (A story to be dragged out or dropped?).  Didn't get very far and lucky TWO of the new people just happened to find her out in the middle of seemingly nowhere.  Maybe I don't remember her last appearance that well, but I thought she had made more progress than the general vicinity where Madison and co. are.  (How far is this ranch supposed to be from the hotel?) . Seems Madison found Nick quickly enough (and Strand Abigail for that matter).

Edited July 13, 2017 by indeed

[lezlers]

Well, Strand and Daniel drove back to the hotel to find Ophelia, which was originally where the Abigail was so it's not that strange that he found it again.  Not sure how far the ranch was from the hotel.  I think Daniel and Strand were saying it was about a day's drive from the dam?  I'm guessing everywhere is about a day's drive away at this point.

[Nashville]

On 7/9/2017 at 10:56 PM, ottoDbusdriver said:

It's out walking the highways and biways of the SouthWest.  He's definitely dead, that doesn't mean he didn't turn.

Travis' body fell out of a frikkin' helicopter at height; even assuming he didn't land on his head, ain't nobody doing much walking at all on shattered legs.

 

On 7/10/2017 at 0:22 AM, thuganomics85 said:

I really think they're aiming for some kind of Walter White-ish arc with Madison, but I doubt they'll end up holding her feet to the fire and owning to her horribleness like Breaking Bad.  Plus, BB had Bryan Crantson being awesome, all while Kim Dickens still seems to have forgotten how to emote.

Well, I'm guessing they ARE pretty close to Albuquerque....

 

On 7/11/2017 at 10:21 AM, indeed said:

Yes, they have their own water supply (well/reservoir) with a lot of water...for now.  But it hasn't rained in like 5 years (or was it months)?

I expect the writers' point was the rich old white murdering bigot guy had deep enough pockets to dig himself a deeper well - one which would keep pumping water in a drought long after shallower wells dried up.

 

On 7/11/2017 at 10:21 AM, indeed said:

So, at the end the sons rode off with their father's body to bury/add to pit of the newly dead and Madison took the head to Walker.  Then the dramatic music continued to play while she walked over to a wood coffin in the barn.  What am I missing here?

1. The boys took the body and prepared it for burial.
2. Afterwards the body was put into the casket, which was closed up and placed in the barn until a grave could be dug and the remains interred - doubtful there was likely to be any kind of open casket service, what with the gaping "self-inflicted" gunshot wound in the head and all...
3. In the interim between closing the casket and burying it, Madison snuck in and decapitated the corpse.

[rmontro]

23 hours ago, Nashville said:

In the interim between closing the casket and burying it, Madison snuck in and decapitated the corpse.

That makes sense.  I was trying to figure out how Madison got the head and how the sons didn't notice it, or were okay with it.

Not fond of the main family.  Alicia's okay.  My favorite scene was Strand talking to the cosmonaut.  Horrible idea that he was stuck orbiting in space.

[Red Fields]

I predict a Madison-Walker hook-up in the second half of the season.

[rmontro]

13 hours ago, Red Fields said:

I predict a Madison-Walker hook-up in the second half of the season.

Troy's going to be jealous!  That, or it'll be like him getting a new daddy.

He'll probably find some way to screw up the peace.

[nodorothyparker]

Please whatever zombie gods there might be no hookups for Madison of any kind.  Her attempts at romantic scenes with Travis were downright painful to watch as she couldn't seem to convey any feeling there either.  Plus now she's got that weird vaguely sexual mommy vibe going with both Nick and Troy.

[Razzberry]

On 7/14/2017 at 6:34 AM, Nashville said:

Madison snuck in and decapitated the corpse.

That's what I like about her.

[allthatglitters]

I never understood why Madison was so hell bent on "taking over" the ranch. Here, without knowing about the whole white supremacist thing, was a functioning ranch with pleasant enough people, crops, water, shelters. She was a mother of two. What scenario could be better than holding up there and joining in the communtiy, at least for awhile? Then there is the whole idea of Madison as some warrior leader. lol Not only can she not act, Kim is wrong for the part, if they really wanted some badass. She just looks like a follower pretending as hard as she can to play the leader.  But what is really odd is that the other characters don't just laugh her off. They actually listen to her! 

Kim looks like she is on tranquilizers all the time. Her face hardly moves no matter what kind of intensity the scene calls for. Her brows may furrow a tad.  It was so painful to watch her try and force her face to change shapes when attempting to show grief over Travis's death. Make little noises. Please show kill her off now!

[Red Fields]

I've never seen the actress in anything else, but can't help but wonder if her inability to emote isn't Botox related.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Red Fields

[SimoneS]

On 7/10/2017 at 10:52 PM, diebartdie said:

First Nation/ Native American / Indians don't have a "sentimental attachment" to the land, it is a far deeper connection than I think any non-native person can comprehend. Otto saw it as a "sentimental attachment", Otto was a white supremacist piece of shit.

I appreciate the correction. 

[Nashville]

On 7/10/2017 at 9:52 PM, diebartdie said:

First Nation/ Native American / Indians don't have a "sentimental attachment" to the land, it is a far deeper connection than I think any non-native person can comprehend. Otto saw it as a "sentimental attachment", Otto was a white supremacist piece of shit.

Missed this'un originally, glad @SimoneS's comment resurfaced it.  

Total agreement, @diebartdie. The connection American Indians and Alaska Natives have to the earth as a whole is much more organic than a mere "sentimental attachment"; that was merely Jeremiah  projecting his own perceptions onto the Tribe.  The European view of "man as steward to the earth" by its very characterization creates an artificial  disconnect between Man and Nature in depicting them as two separate discrete entities, with Man as the superior of the two.  I'm not aware of any AI/AN Tribes which ever held any such notions; they tend to view the entire world as a single living organism, of which every living thing - plants, trees, animals, humans - are but individual manifestations of the greater all-encompassing life force of the whole.

I suspect this worldview was more than a little beyond Jeremiah's ability to comprehend.

[Ohwell]

But whatever one might think of "Man" and Jeremiah as it relates to the land, the fact remains that his father legally purchased the land, correct?  Or did he steal it?  

[nodorothyparker]

I'll be honest that I was zoning in and out during much of the discussion of it, but my impression was that they'd spent a fair bit of time pre-ZA in and out of court wrangling over it.   I want to say that both Jake and Walker alluded to as much.  But again, my attention was pretty scattershot through much of that.

[Nashville]

1 hour ago, Ohwell said:

But whatever one might think of "Man" and Jeremiah as it relates to the land, the fact remains that his father legally purchased the land, correct?  Or did he steal it?  

 

48 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

I'll be honest that I was zoning in and out during much of the discussion of it, but my impression was that they'd spent a fair bit of time pre-ZA in and out of court wrangling over it.   I want to say that both Jake and Walker alluded to as much.  But again, my attention was pretty scattershot through much of that.

Sounded something along the lines of the Walkers were challenging in court the legality of Otto's deed - but when the challengers to Otto's claim mysteriously "disappeared" (i.e., were shot by Otto and their bodies hidden), Otto got a summary decision in his favor.

But even if the Walkers' land theft claim went back generations of owners before the Ottos - if the police catch someone selling stolen property, it's still considered a crime regardless of how many hands through which the property has changed since the original theft.  The last in line is still likely to catch the receiving stolen property charge, unless they can convince the judge and/or jury they had no clue the property was stolen - but regardless of that, the property is still returned to its rightful owner(s).  Why should the rules be different just because the property in question is land?

Edited July 20, 2017 by Nashville

[Ohwell]

19 minutes ago, Nashville said:

 

Sounded something along the lines of the Walkers were challenging in court the legality of Otto's deed - but when the challengers to Otto's claim mysteriously "disappeared" (i.e., were shot by Otto and their bodies hidden), Otto got a summary decision in his favor.

But even if the Walkers' land theft claim went back generations of owners before the Ottos - if the police catch someone selling stolen property, it's still considered a crime regardless of how many hands through which the property has changed since the original theft.  The last in line is still likely to catch the receiving stolen property charge, unless they can convince the judge and/or jury they had no clue the property was stolen - but regardless of that, the property is still returned to its rightful owner(s).  Why should the rules be different just because the property in question is land?

I never suggested that the rules should be different.  I was merely questioning whether or not the land was stolen or legally purchased because I didn't remember much of what Walker and Otto/sons had said about it, although I thought I remembered Otto saying something about it being a legal purchase.  

Furthermore, if Walker says the land theft was generations before the Ottos, I wonder how he would prove it. 

[raven]

18 minutes ago, Nashville said:

Sounded something along the lines of the Walkers were challenging in court the legality of Otto's deed - but when the challengers to Otto's claim mysteriously "disappeared" (i.e., were shot by Otto and their bodies hidden), Otto got a summary decision in his favor.

That wasn't the impression I got.  Jake talked about seeing Walker in court more than once and Walker's family had been dead a long while.  I don't think Otto murdering them had anything to do with winning in court.

I thought Otto's family had owned it for generations, been challenged in court by Walker's family and eventually Walker himself and always won.  We didn't really get any specifics about it (the court issue) and don't know how the land originally came into the possession of Otto's family.

21 minutes ago, Nashville said:

Why should the rules be different just because the property in question is land?

Not to get too far off topic, but just look at the many cases where squatters can become legal owners of property considered abandoned; cases of adverse possession, etc.  We don't know if Otto's family moved onto untended land, bought the land in some fashion from Walker's family (and we don't know if they "legally" owned it), or murdered generations of Walker's family to get the land way back when.

[Nashville]

1 hour ago, Ohwell said:

I never suggested that the rules should be different.  I was merely questioning whether or not the land was stolen or legally purchased because I didn't remember much of what Walker and Otto/sons had said about it, although I thought I remembered Otto saying something about it being a legal purchase.  

Furthermore, if Walker says the land theft was generations before the Ottos, I wonder how he would prove it. 

 I wasn't intending that as a direct response to your post; rather, your post sent me down a particular path of mental musing, and I was getting it out of my system through my fingertips on a keyboard.  I do that sometimes, and I beg your pardon for any misperceptions.  :)

 

1 hour ago, raven said:

That wasn't the impression I got.  Jake talked about seeing Walker in court more than once and Walker's family had been dead a long while.  I don't think Otto murdering them had anything to do with winning in court.

I didn't get the Jake/Walker court encounters to be specifically deed-related either - but I do know when past disagreements between neighbors have left a bad taste in one or both mouths, they will frequently manifest in amplification of any subsequent disputes.  So I expect even if an old deed-challenge case had been fully resolved in the white man's court in the Ottos' favor, the resultant animosity would show up as ANY subsequent issues - property line disputes, water rights, mineral rights, grazing rights, etc. - resulting in a flurry of lawsuits.  Wouldn't surprise me if the local judge had "Walker v. Otto Day" pencilled in on his calendar for the fourth Friday of every month.  :)

That being said - more below.

 

1 hour ago, raven said:

I thought Otto's family had owned it for generations, been challenged in court by Walker's family and eventually Walker himself and always won.  We didn't really get any specifics about it (the court issue) and don't know how the land originally came into the possession of Otto's family.

I don't think the land was a long-term family holding.  Recalling the scene when Nick first started working on rebuilding the cabin after the fire, and Otto came by to see what was going on: i believe Jeremiah told Nick the cabin was where Otto and his first wife had lived when he first acquired the ranch, and that it was the only building on the place (Otto later built the "big house" to appease his second wife).  Which is why I think Jeremiah was the first Otto on the land.

In any case - when Nick confronted Jeremiah with the skull Nick had dug up from under the cabin's floorboards, didn't Jeremiah state (a) it was the skull of Walker's father (or maybe uncle - don't remember which), and (b) the victim had been there at the cabin arguing about Jeremiah's claim to the land when Jeremiah shot him?  I'm not near a cable or DVR box at the moment, so I can't check - but if so, this would be the first of (apparently) many disputes between the Ottos and the Tribe, and one which by definition would've taken place long before Jake and Walker would be facing off against each other in a courtroom.

 

1 hour ago, raven said:

Not to get too far off topic, but just look at the many cases where squatters can become legal owners of property considered abandoned; cases of adverse possession, etc.  We don't know if Otto's family moved onto untended land, bought the land in some fashion from Walker's family (and we don't know if they "legally" owned it), or murdered generations of Walker's family to get the land way back when.

Those three words - "We don't know" - sum up so much of this situation.  THANKS WRITERS!!!  But I do think three things were made clear:

1. The case hearings (not to mention the cases you cite :) are all machinations of the white man's law and the white man's court.
2. The Tribe rarely (if ever) fared successfully in this venue.
3. With the collapse of civilization and its attendant body of law, Walker no longer intends to abide by its rules.

[nodorothyparker]

I'm just impressed that all of you guys seem to have paid more attention than I did.  Two hours of this in one night was obviously more than my attention span could manage.

[raven]

9 minutes ago, Nashville said:

I don't think the land was a long-term family holding.  Recalling the scene when Nick first started working on rebuilding the cabin after the fire, and Otto came by to see what was going on: i believe Jeremiah told Nick the cabin was where Otto and his first wife had lived when he first acquired the ranch, and that it was the only building on the place (Otto later built the "big house" to appease his second wife).  Which is why I think Jeremiah was the first Otto on the land.

Could be - I don't have the ep on the DVR anymore to check on my recollections.  I like to think about a judge penciling in the 4th Friday of the month for ongoing disputes between these two, heh - persevere, Walker.

11 minutes ago, Nashville said:

Those three words - "We don't know" - sum up so much of this situation.  THANKS WRITERS!!!  But I do think three things were made clear:

1. The case hearings (not to mention the cases you cite :) are all machinations of the white man's law and the white man's court.
2. The Tribe rarely (if ever) fared successfully in this venue.
3. With the collapse of civilization and its attendant body of law, Walker no longer intends to abide by its rules.

I am probably giving the show too much credit but I think they set up these three points as the only clear ones because it gives the viewers a bit more to think on.   With Otto being shown as a racist murderer, it portrays Walker's viewpoint in a more sympathetic light - mass anthrax poisoning notwithstanding.  We needed to see him as ruthless as well, willing to take advantage of an ideal situation to make his move, rather than just sitting back fuming.

We could, possibly, maybe (let's not look back on the history of the show), be looking at a Madison/Walker partnership where both of their positions are strengthened.  I think it would be interesting if the two groups consolidated their power on these land holdings, possibly partnering with Daniel at the dam, and end up in a position of power in this part of the country.  Stand would be a wild card.  

[Ohwell]

25 minutes ago, Nashville said:

With the collapse of civilization and its attendant body of law, Walker no longer intends to abide by its rules.

I just think that this is not the best time for Walker (or anyone else, for that matter) to be murdering people over a land dispute when there are far more important things to be concerned about.  Like surviving.  There's certainly enough land for everyone to be able to live on.  

Walker is stupid.  I get that he doesn't like the Ottos and the rest of his crew, but Walker should realize that the more people to protect each other from the zombies, the better.  The two groups don't have to like each other; they don't have to live together.  However, it seems to me that both groups could manage to get together organize watch duty to keep the zombies at bay and kill them.  That's the least they could do.  I guess it would be too much to ask, and not enough drama, for them to actually farm, hunt, etc, together. 

 

12 minutes ago, raven said:

We could, possibly, maybe (let's not look back on the history of the show), be looking at a Madison/Walker partnership where both of their positions are strengthened.  I think it would be interesting if the two groups consolidated their power on these land holdings, possibly partnering with Daniel at the dam, and end up in a position of power in this part of the country.  Stand would be a wild card.  

I just saw your post, and I agree, even though I wish it were someone else besides Madison.