S07.E01: Dragonstone

[Gwen-Stacys]

29 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

On the other hand, I think having Sansa say she learned from Cersei in an episode where Cessei has is surrounded by enemies on all fronts with no allies points to Jon being right in this instance and Sansa wrong.

I tend to think Robb and Ned would have done what Sansa suggested without her having to prompt it.  I think that not blaming the children for the crimes of the parents is a Jon thing stemming from being a bastard.

I completely agree with this and don't understand where all this "Jon is condescending to Sansa" is coming from. He straight up told her to voice her disagreements with him, just not in public. This is also not a "just Jon" thing. Dani had the same issue with Jorah and Sir Barriston back in season 3. I also took his "by listening to you?" question as "so in order to be smart, I have to do everything you tell me to do?" more than condescension. And he says it teasingly and you see him visibly soften when she asks him if that would be so bad. 

Jon's decision to forgive the Karstarks and the Umbers seemed the more "kingly" decision than punishing children (because the head of both households are basically children) for their parent's decision. This also goes back to a lesson than Dani had to learn the hard way. You can't go around killing people who are loyal to you (the Karstarks especially are reputed to have always been ride or die for house Stark) or else people stop being loyal to you. Deposing an entire family would be a Cersei move....and Cersei's not exactly someone you should take leadership advice from. All of her solutions are temporary at best and short-sighted at worse. 

[anamika]

7 minutes ago, screamin said:

 Sansa appreciates Cersei's threat in a way Jon does not.

Because Jon, like Jaime, understands that with winter here, it's hard for a southern army to get North and fight.

9 minutes ago, larapu2000 said:

But she didn't disagree with him, straight away, she suggested that the closest strongholds NOT be torn down, but given to other lords.  Then Jon shot her down.  Then she stood up for herself.

The decision was made. That was not the time to stand up for herself. That's undermining the King. It makes Jon's job that much harder. She does not understand how hard it is to rule because she has never led anyone and never been in charge. Jon knows - see Alliser Thorne and Janos Slynt.

To see how wrong her decision is - look at the reaction in the room. The only person who was happy was LF. Do you still think she did the right thing if it made LF happy?

Edited July 17, 2017 by anamika

[bunnyblue]

I've missed this show soooo much and I was a grinning fool throughout the episode. There were some things that annoyed me but I'm only going to comment on the positive because after 13 long months of waiting for GOT goodness I don't want to be negative.

My King!!! Squeee!! Oh I love in-charge Jon Snow and how he handled the Karstark and Umber situation and how he commanded that room full of lords. And I'm very glad that he firmly told his sister to stop undermining him and that his decisions are final. I loved hearing Maester Wolken refer to him as "Your Grace". So I guess as King he's taken charge of the Night's Watch again if he can order Wildlings to man Eastwatch.

Oh poor Meera, she looks emotionally and physically exhausted. Edd best provide her with a roaring fire, a hot bath, and the best meal Hobb can cook up. I was disappointed we didn't get a followup scene with Bran, Meera, and Edd at Castle Black. Was that Jon's NW cloak Edd was wearing?? I guess he didn't burn it after all. It looks good on him.

I guess I'm easy because I laughed at the montage of Sam at the Citadel. His higher education is not exactly what he thought it would be. I knew that burned hand from the trailer had to be Jorah. Poor Ser Friendzone; he's dying in a dark lonely cell and his concern is still Daenerys. 

I think my favorite moment was watching Dany sail towards Dragonstone, and the 3 dragons flying free over the island. I felt the emotion that she felt: after 20 years in exile, she is HOME. That is her family's castle, they built it, that is her history, she was born there. She is no longer a foreigner in a strange land occupying someone else's pyramid. I loved that we got to see so much of Dragonstone. The gates with the stone dragons, the long and winding stairs, the throne room, and the painted table. I felt a pang of sadness when she pulled down Stannis's banner, but it was never really his home anyway. I also loved that the final trek through the castle was just Dany and Tyrion, and I also loved how Tyrion seemed in awe of dragon carvings in the map room. I guess he never visited Dragonstone before; I wonder if Varys has though.

I'm so happy GOT is back (even if it's only for 6 weeks) and this premiere is one of my favorites. It's amazing how killing so many characters (sorry Margaery) has allowed scenes to last longer than 2 minutes. I'm definitely loving all the extra time devoted to each location and it's cast. Now to read everyone else's comments...

[Chicago Redshirt]

6 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

I wonder how Sansa knew Ned and Robb made stupid mistakes, though.  Was the intel so good she knew Ned warned Cersei before they could all flee, or that Robb married a non-Frey for love and broke the alliance?

1. She's spent tons of time with Littlefinger, who no doubt has broken down his take on Stark foolishness again and again.

2. She was first-hand witness to many of her father's mistakes and/or was certainly told of them by Cersei and Joffrey. She (and we) can say with the benefit of hindsight various things he did (going to King's Landing in the first place, entertaining a Joffrey/Sansa wedding, claiming responsibility for seizing Tyrion and refusing to agree to release him when he was outnumbered a dozen to one, trusting Littlefinger to have his back, trusting Joffrey to keep his word and let him take the Black) were mistakes.

3. Presumably everyone from the smallfolk on up know of Robb's mistakes in a) breaking his promise to marry a Frey b) going to Freyville afterwards and c) underestimating that the Freys would stab the Starks in the back.  

[Kanner]

This was my first live season opener. Binge watched all 60 episodes last July.  It did not disappoint. Though I kept looking at the clock waiting for Dany to show up.  

The things I really liked:

- a strong confident King Jon (he has come a long way and developed through the seasons)

- Sansa's smackedown of Littlefinger

- the Frey demise (though I still don't get how a different face changes your whole body)

- Everything Euron

- jorah

- the sad closure for The Hound with that father and daughter

[PotterOtherP]

Jon needs to get his "small council" in order so they can hash out all the policy details before taking it to the people

[larapu2000]

3 minutes ago, anamika said:

Because Jon, like Jaime, understands that with winter here, it's hard for a southern army to get North and fight.

The decision was made. That was not the time to stand up for herself. That's undermining the King. It makes Jon's job that much harder. She does not understand how hard it is to rule because she has never led anyone and never been in charge. Jon knows - see Alliser Thorne and Janos Slynt.

To see how wrong her decision is - look at the reaction in the room. The only person who was happy was LF. Do you still think she did the right thing if it made LF happy?

Actually, I thought it looked like the reaction was mixed.

But the decision WASN'T made, or at least, not to Sansa's knowledge.  They were discussing the closest strongholds to the Wall, and someone said they should tear down the Karstarks, etc, etc, and she said the castles aren't useless, and they should be given to those that were loyal.  At the very least, Jon should have acknowledged her advice as the way of doing things in a different time, but these were different circumstances.  He was just as much to blame for their public disagreement as she was.

And Jon, like Jaime, doesn't understand the lengths Cersei will go to for revenge.  She blew up a goddamn church with the Queen in it because they humiliated her.  She thinks Sansa murdered Joffrey, in what world is she going to let that stand?  The underestimation of Cersei's determination is Jaime's biggest fault and now it's Jon's potential mistake.

[Guest]

56 minutes ago, Mya Stone said:

Sorry I keep remembering things. This time it's this: they mentioned the Wall standing through it all an awfulllllllllll lot this episode. 

 

Hmmmmmmmmm. 

As I was watching the opening credits I was thinking that are a lot of keeps that are built during the opening credits.  At some point the intro is going to show the Wall coming down.

[Skeeter22]

Jon ignoring the discontent of his closest followers literally got him killed already. Last season, Sansa deferred to Jon in public, and she got nothing in return. Now that she tried a different approach, she still got nothing. If Jon wants Sansa's support, he's going to have to give her some concessions just like any of his other bannermen. 

[SeanC]

I belatedly realized:  did Davos have any lines this week?

[benteen]

13 minutes ago, bunnyblue said:

 

I guess I'm easy because I laughed at the montage of Sam at the Citadel. His higher education is not exactly what he thought it would be. I knew that burned hand from the trailer had to be Jorah. Poor Ser Friendzone; he's dying in a dark lonely cell and his concern is still Daenerys. 

 

Sam meeting Jorah really makes me wish we had gotten the scene where Jeor Mormont tells Sam to tell his son that he forgives him.  Jorah is in no shape to take the black but still, the two characters have finally come face to face which likely won't happen in the books.  I suppose Sam could say that Jeor spoke about his son but still.

Yes, Sansa has learned much from Littlefinger but still hasn't learned that LF betrayed her father and held a knife to his throat.  Seriously, how is this still a secret at this point?  Even Catelyn knew about LF's betrayal and she wasn't in King's Landing like Sansa.  It's amazing that Tyrion never told Sansa.  This has always been a plot hole to me.

When you are facing an army of the undead whose numbers grow whenever they killed, you do not start throwing away potential soldiers unless you have to.  Sparing House Karstark and House Umbar was the smartest thing that Jon has done by a mile.

Edited July 17, 2017 by benteen

[screamin]

6 minutes ago, anamika said:

Because Jon, like Jaime, understands that with winter here, it's hard for a southern army to get North and fight.

Sansa wasn't talking about an army - she explicitly said murder.  No doubt Jon's right about the difficulty of getting a Lannister army north when winter's started...but boats are sailing, the North has ports, and all of Westeros has men with starving families who'd be willing to do kamikaze missions to assassinate if their families are taken care of. Hell, Euron doesn't have an army - and he could just repeat his nephew's exploit in taking Winterfell with a small force from the unexpected direction of the sea while Jon is distracted with the North. Possibly the betrothal gift he plans to offer Cersei is Jon's head.

Jon doesn't appreciate how cleverly Cersei can use men to attack him without an army. He didn't see her in action...just as Sansa doesn't appreciate the horrifying threat the Night King poses - she hasn't seen him in action either. They both need to talk more.

[benteen]

2 minutes ago, Skeeter22 said:

Jon ignoring the discontent of his closest followers literally got him killed already. Last season, Sansa deferred to Jon in public, and she got nothing in return. Now that she tried a different approach, she still got nothing. If Jon wants Sansa's support, he's going to have to give her some concessions just like any of his other bannermen. 

Now THAT is an inexplicable flaw in Jon.  I agree there.

I was surprised not to see Essos in the opening credits and then I remembered we are DONE with that.  You hear that, GRRM?  We are DONE with Essos!!!!!!

[izabella]

15 minutes ago, screamin said:

With Cersei's genuine talent for assasination, a modicum of paranoia toward her is healthy. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you...and it's terribly unsafe to assume that  a viciously unbalanced opponent like Cersei - who STILL believes Sansa killed her favorite child - is just going to sit on her rump at KL with her hands folded till spring and let Jon fight the Night King undistracted. Sansa appreciates Cersei's threat in a way Jon does not.

Sansa knows you shouldn't ever count Cersei out.  She's still standing, while many of her opponents are not.  

I see no reason why Sansa shouldn't speak up with her opinion if others can speak up with theirs.  Lady Mormont's opinion was heard, for example. 

I'm very, very glad Dany is finally in Westeros and at Dragonstone.  And I'm also really glad that Bran is at Castle Black.  I hope there is far less wandering around this season, so Arya better get her butt to King's Landon quickly. 

[kittykat]

7 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I belatedly realized:  did Davos have any lines this week?

No.  Just a face full off AWKWARD during the Jon/Sansa squabble.

[anamika]

12 minutes ago, larapu2000 said:

And Jon, like Jaime, doesn't understand the lengths Cersei will go to for revenge.  She blew up a goddamn church with the Queen in it because they humiliated her.  She thinks Sansa murdered Joffrey, in what world is she going to let that stand?  The underestimation of Cersei's determination is Jaime's biggest fault and now it's Jon's potential mistake.

So Cersei is going to magically transport her army north using her sheer willpower because she wants revenge? And the Lannister army can magically fight in the North because Cersei wants revenge?

Jon and Jaime are looking at it strategically. It's winter. Food is scarce. The snows have already come. Cersei cannot send an army North.

8 minutes ago, screamin said:

Sansa wasn't talking about an army - she explicitly said murder.  No doubt Jon's right about the difficulty of getting a Lannister army north when winter's started...but boats are sailing, the North has ports, and all of Westeros has men with starving families who'd be willing to do kamikaze missions to assassinate if their families are taken care of. Hell, Euron doesn't have an army - and he could just repeat his nephew's exploit in taking Winterfell with a small force from the unexpected direction of the sea while Jon is distracted with the North. Possibly the betrothal gift he plans to offer Cersei is Jon's head.

Jon doesn't appreciate how cleverly Cersei can use men to attack him without an army. He didn't see her in action...just as Sansa doesn't appreciate the horrifying threat the Night King poses - she hasn't seen him in action either. They both need to talk more.

When has Cersei cleverly send men to other cities to attack someone? My mind is drawing a blank. If Sansa wants to warn Jon about Cersei sending secret assassins to kill him, then she should do so specifically. Jon was specifically talking about Cersei asking him to bend the knee and him focusing on the more important threat up North because her army is not a threat.

Edit: Is it her sending bounty hunters after Tyrion? Well, I guess Jon should be sleeping with one eye open then.

Edited July 17, 2017 by anamika

[Lemuria]

Quote

"Let's ask the Vale for help so we have more men before attacking Winterfell!"  Again, also a great idea. 

When did Sansa do this?  What I saw was Sansa hiding the fact that there was an army from the Vale that she could call upon.  Especially just before the battle, when she says that they don't have enough men and Jon says that it's all they have and does she know of any more and she continues to hide the Vale from him.

Sansa needs to hope that the Northern lords don't find this out, IMO.  They turned their backs on helping her and Jon because they considered Robb's actions to be a betrayal of what a king owes his bannerman.  How would they feel if they found out that Sansa knew there was a huge army coming to her aide, but she hid this from Jon and let a lot of fighters die who might not have if Jon had known about the backup.

Quote

 

Quote

Ned kept a child hostage and was prepared to murder him if his father stepped out of line. Stripping a family of their lands after an egregious betrayal isn't exactly the Reynes of Castamere. 

 

Quote

Jon was doing something different to Ned. Funnily enough, he was following the philosophy of the person who orchestrated the Rains of Castamere

 

Tywin understood the complexities of power and he could see the problems that Joffrey could ultimately cause.  If you are unreasonable and too harsh, you will unite everyone, and their armies, against you.

 

Quote

I think the fact that Jon had just won back the Stark's 'ancestral home', which was stripped from them after Ned was declared a traitor, had a lot to do with not wanting to take that away from the young Umber and Karstark heirs.  He saw it happen to his family and did not want to do that to anyone else - I would have thought Sansa could relate to that.

Excellent point, and I agree that this figured into his thinking.  Also, Sansa needs to remember that the vast majority of the Northern houses did not support her and Jon in their quest to regain Winterfell.  You could say that by doing nothing, they were, in fact, aiding Ramsey.  If we adopt her thinking, then all of them should lose their Houses.

 

Quote

Then she stood up for herself.

But you don't do that to a ruler in front of his or her court.  She made her point and Jon said no.  She is free to try to change his mind--Jon said so when they were leaving the Hall--but you do it later, out of the hearing of everyone else.

By doing it when she did, she basically put Jon in a position where he had to shoot her down, or he would appear weak in front of the Northern lords.  And considering the fact that there may well be some lords who still think, "But he's not really a Stark," he knows he can't let that happen.  If Sansa doesn't understand that, then she doesn't understand politics nearly as well as she thinks she does.

[MadMouse]

Did anyone else laugh when Jaime mentioned they didn't know who killed the Freys in the same conversation that Jon is king with Sansa by his side. Not that I expect them to know about Arya but hmm how bout a Stark loyalist. Tyrion really did get all the brains.

[roctavia]

47 minutes ago, Cheshrkat said:

I think the fact that Jon had just won back the Stark's 'ancestral home', which was stripped from them after Ned was declared a traitor, had a lot to do with not wanting to take that away from the young Umber and Karstark heirs.  He saw it happen to his family and did not want to do that to anyone else - I would have thought Sansa could relate to that.

This is what I was thinking as well... They have just got Winterfell back, they know how awful it is to be without their home. 

I also see Sansa's point, but the traitors were dead and they could get new loyalty from the younger Umbers/Karstarks. I think Jon made the right decision, especially when there is urgency to the situation.

I actually don't think there is that much conflict between Sansa and Jon, I mean , sure they are disagreeing on things, and it probably would have been better to have the disagreement another place instead of in front of everybody, but I don't see the conniving and plotting and mistrust between them that we see between just about everyone else. Jon was willing to let Sansa rule, but she gave him the leadership role. He is also listening to her even if he disagrees. They both want to do what is best, but come from very different experiences. I do think they could work very well as a team to stay alive regarding Cersei and the white walkers. They are just different- and worried about different things. Jon has seen the whitewalkers, that's all he has to worry about. Cersei is nothing compared to the army coming from the north.

[Gertrude]

I'm not really invested in who was right between Jon and Sansa. They both had reasonable ideas based on their own experiences. In the end I think Jon's solution was the right one, but the thing is, I don't actually care. The tension is artificial and not portrayed well. I have expectations about how Sansa should behave from the books and while I know we're well beyond that point, I don't ever see this being a thing with book Sansa so I can't get invested. Show Sansa has a lot of cause to not only be cynical but bitter as well. She's in a much darker place and of course it should affect her. I just happen not to like the way it's being written/directed.

[larapu2000]

5 minutes ago, anamika said:

So Cersei is going to magically transport her army north using her sheer willpower because she wants revenge? And the Lannister army can magically fight in the North because Cersei wants revenge?

Jon and Jaime are looking at it strategically. It's winter. Food is scarce. The snows have already come. Cersei cannot send an army North.

When has Cersei cleverly send men to other cities to attack someone? My mind is drawing a blank. If Sansa wants to warn Jon about Cersei sending secret assassins to kill him, then she should do so specifically. Jon was specifically talking about Cersei asking him to bend the knee and him focusing on the more important threat up North because her army is not a threat.

She doesn't need an army.  She needs one person to murder Sansa and Jon.  A warning to not underestimate Cersei was all Sansa was giving, but, once again, Jon is so far up his own ass that he couldn't even acknowledge it politely.  Good for Jon and Jaime looking at it strategically, but in the show I'm watching, Cersei has never been strategically clever.  She's been murderously ruthless, and if Jon doesn't think she's coming for them somehow, or to at least prepare himself for the possibility, it's his detriment.  The fact that the conversation took place is a foreshadowing, since dialogue is rarely non-essential on this show.

[SeanC]

57 minutes ago, Cheshrkat said:

I think the fact that Jon had just won back the Stark's 'ancestral home', which was stripped from them after Ned was declared a traitor, had a lot to do with not wanting to take that away from the young Umber and Karstark heirs.  He saw it happen to his family and did not want to do that to anyone else - I would have thought Sansa could relate to that.

For the sake of argument, Sansa also knows that she's not likely to be all that amenable to the Lannisters after they killed her father, mother and brother, so it's reasonable for her to doubt that Umber Jr. and Alys will actually be loyal to Jon after he killed their fathers(?).

[screamin]

Just now, anamika said:

When has Cersei cleverly send men to other cities to attack someone? My mind is drawing a blank. If Sansa wants to warn Jon about Cersei sending secret assassins to kill him, then she should do so specifically. Jon was specifically talking about Cersei asking him to bend the knee and him focusing on the more important threat up North.

Let's see...Robert wasn't in the city when she had him assassinated, so yeah, she does in fact do non-local jobs. She sent assassins after all King Bob's kids. Robb didn't meet his death on a battlefield  - he met it at the hands of secret allies of the Lannisters who committed assassination at Lannister behest, hundreds of miles from KL - yes, that was Cersei's dad's plan, but we all know how she longs to emulate her father. Cersei spectacularly assasinated the pope. All these are common knowledge, and shows that the Lannisters have a large repertoire of varied murderous tactics at their disposal - and in Cersei's hands, the will to use them vengefully beyond the rational. Brushing murder off as a possible threat from your enemies gets your wine poisoned...as Arya demonstrated, fortunately for the Starks' side. 

[izabella]

15 minutes ago, anamika said:

So Cersei is going to magically transport her army north using her sheer willpower because she wants revenge? And the Lannister army can magically fight in the North because Cersei wants revenge?

Jon and Jaime are looking at it strategically. It's winter. Food is scarce. The snows have already come. Cersei cannot send an army North.

Cersei doesn't need to send an army North.  Littlefinger's army is already there.  All she needs is some twisted deal with Littlefinger. 

[anamika]

11 minutes ago, larapu2000 said:

She doesn't need an army.  She needs one person to murder Sansa and Jon.  A warning to not underestimate Cersei was all Sansa was giving, but, once again, Jon is so far up his own ass that he couldn't even acknowledge it politely.  Good for Jon and Jaime looking at it strategically, but in the show I'm watching, Cersei has never been strategically clever.  She's been murderously ruthless, and if Jon doesn't think she's coming for them somehow, or to at least prepare himself for the possibility, it's his detriment.  The fact that the conversation took place is a foreshadowing, since dialogue is rarely non-essential on this show.

Then Sansa should say ' Hey Jon, Cersei is going to send assassins after you' to counter Jon's ' Cersei's southern army cannot come North'. Her vague bullshit masquerading as advice is getting tiresome to hear. 

Don't be like Ned and Robb? In an episode where he was not like Ned or Robb? What is she trying to say?

Sansa is not offering anything useful at this point. That's the problem with her character. All she does is disagree with everything Jon does and not offer anything constructive in return.

As for disagreements in the room - we were given the reactions of three important characters - Davos, Brienne and LF as Sansa and Jon argued and the houses variously agreed and disagreed. Davos and Brienne were like uh oh. LF was starting to get excited.

I like that Jon stood up against her bullshit this season and called her out.

7 minutes ago, screamin said:

Let's see...Robert wasn't in the city when she had him assassinated, so yeah, she does in fact do non-local jobs. She sent assassins after all King Bob's kids. Robb didn't meet his death on a battlefield  - he met it at the hands of secret allies of the Lannisters who committed assassination at Lannister behest, hundreds of miles from KL - yes, that was Cersei's dad's plan, but we all know how she longs to emulate her father. Cersei spectacularly assasinated the pope. All these are common knowledge, and shows that the Lannisters have a large repertoire of varied murderous tactics at their disposal - and in Cersei's hands, the will to use them vengefully beyond the rational. Brushing murder off as a possible threat from your enemies gets your wine poisoned...as Arya demonstrated, fortunately for the Starks' side. 

 In case I was not clear, when did Cersei send men to other cities to attack someone? Robert was near KL, the pope was in KL. Cersei lives in KL and has men there to do her bidding. How successful has she been in her assassination attempts on people outside of KL? And how does Sansa know about Cersei's escapades with the pope and Robert and her killing kids?

Edited July 17, 2017 by anamika

[Oscirus]

And after a long wait we are back:

 

So the showrunners just had to do it.  Apparently Arya has morphing abilities and is capable of creating faces at a moment's notice. That's a thing now. 

So with  seven shows in the whole season, they thought showing us the trials and tribulations of Sam was a good thing to do apparently.  At least Sam has show some growth.

I'm officially  over Lyanna Mormont. Someone needs to tell her to sit her little ass down and stop acting so damn tough all the time.  It's getting tedious.

I tend to agree with Sansa, just not the way that she chose to do it. Do that stuff in private, you do it in public, you sow seeds.  Also they literally just set the table for a sansa vs Cersei endgame.

Littlefinger is a wise man but Sansa is such a blind spot for him. It's clear she wants nothing to do with him yet he keeps trying to force himself on her. 

Nice little story arc for the hound. Coming face to face with his previous crimes was  easily the most touching moment of the show.

Jorah citing.

Glad to see that Cersei's a bit more cerebral. Still arrogant as all hell, but still. How would she know that Tyrion is a queens hand? I don't imagine qyburn's birds reach that far. But I guess I'll have to accept that. I wonder if part of the reason for her hatred of tyrion is the fact that Jamie loves Tyrion more then her.

I imagine Dany's arrival at her ancestral home was quite satisfying for  everybody. Next week, the fun begins.

8 minutes ago, screamin said:

She sent assassins after all King Bob's kids.

Wasn't that Joffrey?

[anamika]

6 minutes ago, izabella said:

Cersei doesn't need to send an army North.  Littlefinger's army is already there.  All she needs is some twisted deal with Littlefinger. 

Then Sansa should focus on getting rid of LF instead of advising Jon about Cersei who is thousands of miles away. The Vale will support the Starks. They don't need LF any more. Why is she not making a case to get rid of LF like she wants to punish the children of the traitors?

[screamin]

1 minute ago, Oscirus said:

Wasn't that Joffrey?

In the show, it was. In the books, it seemed more clearly Cersei, IMO. Either way, it remains part of the Lannister repertoire.

[Gwen-Stacys]

4 minutes ago, screamin said:

Let's see...Robert wasn't in the city when she had him assassinated, so yeah, she does in fact do non-local jobs. She sent assassins after all King Bob's kids. Robb didn't meet his death on a battlefield  - he met it at the hands of secret allies of the Lannisters who committed assassination at Lannister behest, hundreds of miles from KL - yes, that was Cersei's dad's plan, but we all know how she longs to emulate her father. Cersei spectacularly assasinated the pope. All these are common knowledge, and shows that the Lannisters have a large repertoire of varied murderous tactics at their disposal - and in Cersei's hands, the will to use them vengefully beyond the rational. Brushing murder off as a possible threat from your enemies gets your wine poisoned...as Arya demonstrated, fortunately for the Starks' side. 

Robert was still technically in King's Landing and with a Cersei plant (her cousin and former fuck buddy Lancel.). Jon's point, I think, is that it won't matter if Cersei wants to murder them if the Night King murders them first anyway. Cersei can't do much until winter is over (Littlefinger at this point is seen as being Pro-Stark and everyone in the Vale is anti-Lannister as they believe they were the ones that poisoned their former Lord, Jon Arryn, in the first place, so she has nothing there). And while the North does have ports, it'd still take a lot for some random, non northerner to fight through mountains of snow, get passed the hundreds (if noth thousands) camped outside of Winterfell, through the doors, past Ghost (wherever the hell he's hiding out now) and to Jon/Sansa. Not until winter is over and Jon believes that this is the winter that'll last a generation. His point to Sansa isn't that she's wrong for believing Cersei a threat, just that Cersei isn't the most pressing threat to them at the moment. 

[SimoneS]

9 minutes ago, izabella said:

Cersei doesn't need to send an army North.  Littlefinger's army is already there.  All she needs is some twisted deal with Littlefinger. 

Littlefinger doesn't have an army. He is temporarily commanding the Vale's army. Robin would never agree to support the Lannisters.

[Oscirus]

4 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Littlefinger doesn't have an army. He is temporarily commanding the Vale's army. Robin would never agree to support the Lannisters.

Not to mention that she can't possibly trust Littlefinger. Only way he gains back her trust is by bringing Sansa, to Kings landing and everybody knows that's not going to happen.

[bunnyblue]

Did ya'll notice that the Inn at the Crossroads was added to the opening credits? I had to rewind because it went by so fast but it was there, right before it panned to the Twins. I was surprised the Baratheon stag is still over King's Landing and not the Lannister lion. I was disappointed the Targaryen dragon was not above Dragonstone. Someone said the direwolf over Winterfell is different but it looks the same to me.

I liked Euron; he seems a bit unhinged, more piratey. And I laughed at his jab at Jaime about "two hands". What I didn't like was that the Silence looked like it was made of cardboard; like something put together for a school play. That was some bad CGI; the sails look good though.

I know it was way too fanservicey, but I still loved that Arya got to take revenge on the Freys. She was there when the Stark's were betrayed and butchered. This has always been more personal to her than any of her siblings. And I love that after reading certain speculation over the years that Sansa would take the Vale army or the Stark army south to avenge the Red Wedding, it was a lone independent Arya that took care of business. She didn't need some borrowed army to avenge her mother, brother, and sister-in-law; she got her hands dirty and delivered her own brand of justice.

[J----av]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

Sansa is pretending to be all-seeing. That's her problem. She keeps chastising Jon for every decision he makes, despite her being wrong about everything last season. 

 Well she was right telling Jon that Ramsay would set a trap for him and not to fall for it. Jon is an idiot though and of course fell for it and got thousands of his men killed. Good thing LF bailed him out. Neither Jon or Sansa are really smart enough to rule the North

[Constantinople]

Jon's still stupid and he comes off as a bit sexist too

[PTVjones]

It's important to say that Sansa saying that she "learned a lot from Cersei" does not mean she exclusively learned from Cersei. If you think about Sansa has at some point been involved with the smartest, most manipulative people in the realm. She's had Cersei, Little Finger, Margery, Olenna, Tyrion, Varys all in her immediate circle. On top of this, she's survived Joffrey and Ramsay. I think it's fair to say that Sansa knows the South equally as Jon knows the North. Those skill sets are equally important and the reason why they are having conflict is because they do not see the value in what each other knows equally. 

There's only been one person who's been killed because he didn't play the politics correctly, and that's Jon. Ironically enough, Jon was killed by much more honorable people than people who have had the potential to kill Sansa. Sansa is smart and Jon needs to take her council more seriously. Sansa just needs to learn when to vocalize her expertise. In a room full of lesser Lords isn't it. 

[benteen]

23 minutes ago, anamika said:

Then Sansa should say ' Hey Jon, Cersei is going to send assassins after you' to counter Jon's ' Cersei's southern army cannot come North'. Her vague bullshit masquerading as advice is getting tiresome to hear. 

 

Good lord, yes, enough with the vagary.  You want to know why Jon gets frustrated with her.

I can buy Arya knowing how to skin Frey's face and even wear it.  Imitating his voice is something else though.

[Oscirus]

2 minutes ago, PTVjones said:

It's important to say that Sansa saying that she "learned a lot from Cersei" does not mean she exclusively learned from Cersei. If you think about Sansa has at some point been involved with the smartest, most manipulative people in the realm. She's had Cersei, Little Finger, Margery, Olenna, Tyrion, Varys all in her immediate circle.

Technically she's had Littlefinger and to some extent Cersei  in her circle. The others were either using or protecting her. Not really sharing their knowledge with her. If anything,  I'd argue of all the people to emulate, Cersei's the wrong one since her plans blow up in her face 100 percent of the time.

[MarySNJ]

41 minutes ago, benteen said:

Sam meeting Jorah really makes me wish we had gotten the scene where Jeor Mormont tells Sam to tell his son that he forgives him.  Jorah is in no shape to take the black but still, the two characters have finally come face to face which likely won't happen in the books.  I suppose Sam could say that Jeor spoke about his son but still.

Yes, Sansa has learned much from Littlefinger but still hasn't learned that LF betrayed her father and held a knife to his throat.  Seriously, how is this still a secret at this point?  Even Catelyn knew about LF's betrayal and she wasn't in King's Landing like Sansa.  It's amazing that Tyrion never told Sansa.  This has always been a plot hole to me.

When you are facing an army of the undead whose numbers grow whenever they killed, you do not start throwing away potential soldiers unless you have to.  Sparing House Karstark and House Umbar was the smartest thing that Jon has done by a mile.

Agreed. Even ruthless Tywin understood that you have to offer a hand up to defeated foes who bend the knee, or else no one will ever bend the knee again. Alys and Ned bent the knee and pledged fealty to House Stark, thus showing that Jon's mercy served a greater purpose by ensuring loyalty among those houses closest to the Wall whose levies will be needed in the war to come. 

While I agree with Sansa's estimation of Cersei's drive for revenge against those who stand against her, her actions have at least temporarily shattered her alliances. She's not in a strong position even if she has the throne for now. The nobles and commoners may fear her, but no one loves her. She will have to offer a pretty sweet deal to get some to turn cloaks, and even then I think her support will be very tenuous. I don't see an army that will be willing to drive North in Winter to depose Jon on behalf of Cersei. Maybe in Spring with enough incentives, but not in Winter. Jon and Jaime are right about that. Short term, Cersei isn't the bigger threat. 

[anamika]

1 minute ago, benteen said:

Good lord, yes, enough with the vagary.  You want to know why Jon gets frustrated with her.

I can buy Arya knowing how to skin Frey's face and even wear it.  Imitating his voice is something else though.

What does Sansa even mean by 'don't be like Ned and Robb'? Does she know what decisions Ned and Robb took that led to their downfall? Robb executing Karstark was when a lot of his troubles started. Ned not wanting to hurt children was what partly led to his downfall in KL.

And here's the funny thing. She is warning Jon about Cersei who is thousands of miles away, but LF is right there. In WF. And she knows how much more smarter and dangerous LF is. And as she says in this episode, she knows exactly what he wants - to get rid of Jon and put Sansa in charge. Why is she not warning Jon about LF?!

Which is why her so called 'advice' continues to be horse shit. I am glad Jon is seeing through it.

5 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Jon's still stupid and he comes off as a bit sexist too

Asking his sister to not undermine him is sexist now? So Dany was being sexist when she said the same to Barristan and Jorah or when Jon did it to Alliser and Slynt?

It's funny he gets called sexist in the same episode where he wants all genders to get trained to fight - I guess his experience with the spearwives makes him more open to the idea.

[screamin]

32 minutes ago, anamika said:

Then Sansa should say ' Hey Jon, Cersei is going to send assassins after you' to counter Jon's ' Cersei's southern army cannot come North'. Her vague bullshit masquerading as advice is getting tiresome to hear. 

 

I'd say any reasonably intelligent person can extrapolate from "Cersei's murdered everyone who stands against her," to "she'll try to murder us, because we just got a letter calling us traitors if we didn't bend the knee, which we certainly aren't going to do." I don't see that Sansa has the obligation to draw stick figures for Jon on a map of Westeros to explain how this could happen before he could possibly be expected to get it.

Quote

In case I was not clear, when did Cersei send men to other cities to attack someone? Robert was near KL, the pope was in KL. Cersei lives in KL and has men there to do her bidding. How successful has she been in her assassination attempts on people outside of KL? And how does Sansa know about Cersei's escapades with the pope and Robert and her killing kids?

If someone blew up the Vatican, even in the 16th century, that news would spread fast. I mentioned how Robb was assasinated by forces he believed to be friendly at Lannister behest, many miles from King's Landing. Why assume that Cersei would never adopt her parent's successful techniques? Why should Jon - or you - assume that Cersei's agents are incapable of traveling beyond KL at her orders? Are they like Home Depot shopping carts whose wheels freeze when they reach the edge of the parking lots? We see people traveling all over Westeros even in the onset of winter - Euros on his ships, Arya alone on her horsie, the Hound with his buddies. Cersei can send someone the same way. It would be absurd for Jon to assume that just because most of her assassinations were confined to the KL area, he must be totally safe from her - for no good reason.

Edited July 17, 2017 by screamin

[BitterApple]

Hell, if teenage Arya was able to make it to Riverrun on her own, a few well-trained assassins could probably shlep up to Winterfell with minimal trouble.

[MrWhyt]

27 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Littlefinger doesn't have an army. He is temporarily commanding the Vale's army. Robin would never agree to support the Lannisters.

how firm a grip on the reigns of power do you suppose Robin has?

[anamika]

Just now, screamin said:

I'd say any reasonably intelligent person can extrapolate from "Cersei's murdered everyone who stands against her," to "she'll try to murder us, because we just got a letter calling us traitors if we didn't bend the knee, which we certainly aren't going to do." I don't see that Sansa has the obligation to draw stick figures for Jon on a map of Westeros to explain how this could happen before he could possibly be expected to get it.

No, I would not be able to extrapolate from 'Cersei murdered everyone who stands against her' to ' She will send assassins to kill you'. If Sansa wants people to take her more seriously, she needs to be more specific about her warnings.

3 minutes ago, screamin said:

If someone blew up the Vatican, even in the 16th century, that news would spread fast. I mentioned how Robb was assasinated by forces he believed to be friendly at Lannister behest, many miles from King's Landing. Why assume that Cersei would never adopt her parent's successful techniques? Why should Jon - or you - assume that Cersei's agents are incapable of traveling beyond KL at her orders? Are they like Home Depot shopping carts whose wheels freeze when they reach the edge of the parking lots? We see people traveling all over Westeros even in the onset of winter - Euros on his ships, Arya alone on her horsie, the Hound with his buddies. Cersei can send someone the same way. It would be absurd for Jon to assume that just because most of her assassinations were confined to the KL area, he must be totally safe - for no good reason.

The Red Wedding was planned by Tywin Lannister. Are you seriously saying  Cersei is as smart as Tywin Lannister? And that Sansa thinks this? If she does, then she is both paranoid and stupid.

Again, does Sansa know of any successful attempt by Cersei to assassinate people not in KL? What is she basing her advice on?

[MarySNJ]

Just now, anamika said:

No, I would not be able to extrapolate from 'Cersei murdered everyone who stands against her' to ' She will send assassins to kill you'. If Sansa wants people to take her more seriously, she needs to be more specific about her warnings.

The Red Wedding was planned by Tywin Lannister. Are you seriously saying  Cersei is as smart as Tywin Lannister? And that Sansa thinks this? If she does, then she is both paranoid and stupid.

Again, does Sansa know of any successful attempt by Cersei to assassinate people not in KL? What is she basing her advice on?

I think it's just post-traumatic stress operating on Sansa. She's lived the nightmare and knows what the Lannisters are capable of so it seems like that is the major threat at the moment. Jon has seen worse and lived that nightmare. 

[screamin]

43 minutes ago, Gwen-Stacys said:

Robert was still technically in King's Landing and with a Cersei plant (her cousin and former fuck buddy Lancel.). Jon's point, I think, is that it won't matter if Cersei wants to murder them if the Night King murders them first anyway. Cersei can't do much until winter is over (Littlefinger at this point is seen as being Pro-Stark and everyone in the Vale is anti-Lannister as they believe they were the ones that poisoned their former Lord, Jon Arryn, in the first place, so she has nothing there). And while the North does have ports, it'd still take a lot for some random, non northerner to fight through mountains of snow, get passed the hundreds (if noth thousands) camped outside of Winterfell, through the doors, past Ghost (wherever the hell he's hiding out now) and to Jon/Sansa. Not until winter is over and Jon believes that this is the winter that'll last a generation. His point to Sansa isn't that she's wrong for believing Cersei a threat, just that Cersei isn't the most pressing threat to them at the moment. 

Who says it has to be a non-northerner? IIRC, there are still prisoners of war held from all around, including the north, and probably some in King's Landing, or other refugees from the war. There's many ways to apply pressure - here's gold for your starving family if you do this, or we'll just kill your kids if you don't. And the danger of assassination is not from some supernaturally talented fighter to singlehandly slaughter thousands of Jon's troops, lop off Ghost's head, and then fight mano a mano with Jon to the death. The danger of assassination comes from some harmless-looking older man - or woman - with a tragic story of having family killed and home burned, coming to the castle offering to work in the kitchen or chopping wood, becoming an accepted part of the landscape, until just the right opportunity.  The winter's closing down now, but people are still traveling through Westeros - which is seen to be far from impassible. It's not safe to disregard that threat till they are REALLY cut off from the rest of Westeros - which has clearly not yet happened.

Edited July 17, 2017 by screamin

[anamika]

3 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

I think it's just post-traumatic stress operating on Sansa. She's lived the nightmare and knows what the Lannisters are capable of so it seems like that is the major threat at the moment. Jon has seen worse and lived that nightmare. 

Oh, I don't disagree. I mean Jon even mentions this in the episode - her experiences with Cersei has changed her. I am just arguing that Jon has a valid argument when he says that the WW are the more urgent threat and not Cersei's army. If Sansa thinks that secret assassins send by Cersei are out to get them, then she should be more specific.

[Dev F]

29 minutes ago, bunnyblue said:

Did ya'll notice that the Inn at the Crossroads was added to the opening credits? I had to rewind because it went by so fast but it was there, right before it panned to the Twins.

The inn has been there since at least season 3, I think; it just depends on how we pass over the map between main locations. I think it generally appears when we visit the Twins.

In fact, the mapmakers made a point of showing that it's directly downstream from the Twins, which is one of several details from the first few seasons that makes me think they'd originally planned to do the Lady Stoneheart storyline and then changed their minds.

[Gwen-Stacys]

9 minutes ago, screamin said:

Who says it has to be a non-northerner? IIRC, there are still prisoners of war held from all around, including the north, and probably some in King's Landing, or other refugees from the war. There's many ways to apply pressure - here's gold for your starving family if you do this, or we'll just kill your kids if you don't. And the danger of assassination is not from some supernaturally talented fighter to singlehandly slaughter thousands of Jon's troops, lop off Ghost's head, and then fight mano a mano with Jon to the death. The danger of assassination comes from some harmless-looking older man - or woman - with a tragic story of having family killed and home burned, coming to the castle offering to work in the kitchen or chopping wood, becoming an accepted part of the landscape, until just the right opportunity.  The winter's closing down now, but people are still traveling through Westeros - which is seen to be far from impassible. It's not safe to disregard that threat till they are REALLY cut off from the rest of Westeros - which has clearly not yet happened.

I think that's giving Cersei way too much credit. That, and the Lannisters are broke. So who.s she paying what now? Again, Jon never discounted Cersei as a threat, he simply said that with the Night King on his way, she's a non-factor to him right now. Jon's on the same page that the audience (both book and tv show) have been told to be on since the very first scene ---the Night King is the be all-end all threat. The entire theme of this story (a song of ice and fire, and why all the people representing fire are slowly making their way to the icy north) is that all this squabbling over thrones and past slights are pointless and stupid. It's also why they had that random scene with the army of the dead (with a few giant-weights in tow) smack dab in the middle of the episode. 

[ChromaKelly]

2 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

Sam asked Professor Slughorn for permission to look in the Restricted Section. 

Right??? They HAD to have done that on purpose.

[screamin]

13 minutes ago, anamika said:

No, I would not be able to extrapolate from 'Cersei murdered everyone who stands against her' to ' She will send assassins to kill you'. 

Well, YOU'RE not standing against Cersei. But IMO, to someone who just got a message saying, "Come to KL to bend the knee to the woman who killed your dad after HE bent the knee, or be considered a traitor," I'd say it would be a lot clearer to Sansa and Jon that they WERE standing against Cersei (since they obviously weren't going to rush off to KL at her behest). For such people standing against Cersei, I'd say from 'Cersei murdered everyone who stands against her' to "She's going to try to murder us too." is not SUCH an enormous stretch that it requires a diagram and arrows. Just IMO.

Quote

Again, does Sansa know of any successful attempt by Cersei to assassinate people not in KL? What is she basing her advice on?

So basically your position is, "Cersei has successfully assassinated hundreds of people - many of them capable highborn with loyal armies at their disposal, and  because she hasn't yet done it outside of KL, Jon should totally feel safe even though I can't name any unsurmountable obstacle to her sending someone outside King's Landing."