S03.E10: Lantern

[MisterBluxom]

5 hours ago, ByTor said:

Prediction...Kim calling her meds "the good stuff" wasn't a throw-away line.  She is going to become addicted, which in turn is going to lead her to a dealer who has some kind of connection to Gus.  Kim is going to get into some kind of trouble, Jimmy is going to defend her as "Saul", which will be the beginning of Saul Goodman, "criminal" lawyer.

Well now .... Congrats to you! Well done! Very well done!

I am very pleased to see you going out on a limb here and you have made me very happy because it is so rare that someone will display such a great deal of courage like you did. I'm not gonna say you are right or you are wrong. It is just too hard to predict such a thing. But it takes a great deal of courage to take a step like that and I want you to know that I have a very strong feeling of solidarity with you.

After all, how in the *BLEEP* can it be a throwaway line? Most every line in the writing of this show is extremely carefully thought out in advance. It would just be silly to suggest that something as important as that line could ever possibly be a "throwaway".  If it turns out that you are wrong, I will be deeply disappointed in the writing of this show. Even if the SR knew there would not be any more seasons, it woulds still be a nasty move to make. Really and truly nasty.

I am not putting such a move out of the reach of our boy (Vince Gilligan). But it would just be a nasty and juveinille trick to play on us and it would leave me believing that the SR is an *SOB* and that we should never trust that *SOB* again. If it turns out that he has pulled such a nasty trick on us,  I will never feel that I can forgive him and never feel that I can ever have any more faith in his writing again. I would also like to let loose with a big, long and nasty stream of curse words and name calling. If he did, in fact, pull such a nasty trick, I would just be left with the feeling that I'd like to give the *BLEEPER* a real good SMACK in the mouth.  What a SON OF A *BLEEP* he would be!!!

Edited June 24, 2017 by MissBluxom

[smorbie]

What is SR?

[ByTor]

1 hour ago, smorbie said:

What is SR?

I believe Show Runner

[Adiba]

12 hours ago, ByTor said:

Prediction...Kim calling her meds "the good stuff" wasn't a throw-away line.  She is going to become addicted, which in turn is going to lead her to a dealer who has some kind of connection to Gus.  Kim is going to get into some kind of trouble, Jimmy is going to defend her as "Saul", which will be the beginning of Saul Goodman, "criminal" lawyer.

This is why I love reading this forum ^-- posters come up with theories and opinions that I hadn't thought of and then I get a whole new reading on the show.

It's possible that Kim becomes addicted to opiods due to her accident and from there, the writers can take the story in a number of directions. Jimmy may enable her, or he may need to make money to help pay for rehab, etc. 

[Clanstarling]

12 hours ago, ByTor said:

Prediction...Kim calling her meds "the good stuff" wasn't a throw-away line.  She is going to become addicted, which in turn is going to lead her to a dealer who has some kind of connection to Gus.  Kim is going to get into some kind of trouble, Jimmy is going to defend her as "Saul", which will be the beginning of Saul Goodman, "criminal" lawyer.

The line gave me pause. I didn't go into prediction mode, but I did wonder if drugs were part of the past she'd been reluctant to talk about. Which fits into your predication fairly neatly. I guess we'll see.

Edited June 24, 2017 by Clanstarling

[JudyObscure]

12 hours ago, smorbie said:

IMO, we are watching the suicide of a very sad, disturbed man who had nothing left.

Plus exhausted.  I don't think the writers intended to do a PSA on sleep deprivation and the rash decisions that result, but between Kim's accident and Chuck's half-hearted,  lantern-kicking suicide, it's there.  We saw Chuck lie sleepless the night before his dawn to dark heavy labor. 

[rue721]

15 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Howard didn't want to rock the boat too much probably for mixed reasons -- he held Chuck in high regard for all of the things he had done, and also didn't want to have to end the partnership and pay him what his share was valued at.  There was a middle ground that Howard never went to.  He could have made it clear that until he was well, Chuck could not take files out of the office and work at home.  Chuck could have gone on inactive status with the bar, still be a member but not have to have malpractice insurance, retain his partnership interest, but just do no work until he underwent treatment and was able to tolerate electricity and modern office equipment.

I think they were essentially at that middle ground, in practice if not formally, until Jimmy started bringing his own work files over to Chuck's house and Chuck got intrigued enough to start working on Sandpiper.

I think that Chuck essentially just bit off more than he could chew in terms of returning to work, and that that was inevitable because of Chuck's personality and his unwillingness to listen to reason. I don't fault Howard for it; Chuck was a senior partner, so at the end of the day, he was going to do what he wanted to do.

In terms of how Howard handled Chuck's relationship to the firm, the only thing that really made me think less of him as a person was when he tried to pressure Jimmy not to take guardianship and commit Chuck because he (Howard) didn't want Jimmy to have the ability to demand a buyout. I can't fault Howard for prioritizing the firm's well-being over Chuck's (I mean, the firm IS his responsibility and Chuck isn't, so...), but I didn't like that the whole time he was fronting that he was the one who was trying to help Chuck and Jimmy was the one who wasn't putting his needs first. I think that was just really unkind of him, both toward Chuck and toward Jimmy. He could have just tried to negotiate and been real about it, he didn't need to bullshit like that. That said, I don't think that Howard necessarily really understood what had been going on in the Land of the Brothers McGill at that point, and probably took a dimmer view of Jimmy's involvement than was really warranted anyway -- so it's possible that he thought that by protecting Chuck's potential buyout money from Jimmy's control, he was actually was looking out for Chuck's best interests as well as the firm's. I think he only really realized that Jimmy was genuinely taking care of Chuck and how much support Jimmy was really providing him after Jimmy and Chuck's falling out, when Jimmy met with Howard to pass on the reins.

I also think that Howard not wanting to be in charge of Chuck's care and responsible for him in any way is a big part of why he decided to buy him out even with his own money. When Jimmy was taking care of Chuck, Howard could pretend that everything was fine. When Ernie was taking care of Chuck, Howard could at least get by without changing his own behavior or life that much. But once Ernie was out of the picture, Howard was IT, and Chuck was starting to treat him like he'd treated Jimmy and probably would treat any caretaker -- with that mix of neediness, anger, and contempt. I think that Howard saw the path that Chuck and Jimmy's relationship had taken, and realized he was the new Jimmy, and was like NOPE. Hence the buyout. I don't blame Howard at all. But I think that if Jimmy were still caring for Chuck, the buyout never would have happened.

I don't know if it's to Howard's credit or not that he never tried to get Jimmy and Chuck to patch things up. It seems like it would have been to his benefit if they had. But on the other hand, that probably would only have staved off the inevitable buyout for a little while, because given Chuck's deterioration and what Howard knew of the state of his health, there would probably come a day pretty soon when Jimmy would really have to take guardianship over Chuck, and Jimmy would demand the buyout at that point anyway. So maybe trying to get them to patch things up and to buy a little time that way would have been more trouble than it would have been worth.

[ShadowFacts]

10 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I also think that Howard not wanting to be in charge of Chuck's care and responsible for him in any way is a big part of why he decided to buy him out even with his own money. When Jimmy was taking care of Chuck, Howard could pretend that everything was fine. When Ernie was taking care of Chuck, Howard could at least get by without changing his own behavior or life that much. But once Ernie was out of the picture, Howard was IT, and Chuck was starting to treat him like he'd treated Jimmy and probably would treat any caretaker -- with that mix of neediness, anger, and contempt. I think that Howard saw the path that Chuck and Jimmy's relationship had taken, and realized he was the new Jimmy, and was like NOPE. Hence the buyout. I don't blame Howard at all. But I think that if Jimmy were still caring for Chuck, the buyout never would have happened.

I think even if Jimmy were in the picture to take care of Chuck, the buyout would happen, because the huge malpractice increase was still in play.  That, and the widening knowledge that Chuck was not Chuck anymore, in terms of his mental capacities, and that he was doing damage to HHM's image. 

[rue721]

1 hour ago, Adiba said:

It's possible that Kim becomes addicted to opiods due to her accident and from there, the writers can take the story in a number of directions. Jimmy may enable her, or he may need to make money to help pay for rehab, etc. 

On the one hand, this would make sense in light of how sensitive Saul Goodman was toward Jesse's sobriety (sensitive relative to how hilariously insensitive Saul was in general, anyway!). I mean, Saul was the guy who responded to Walt saying he probably had weeks to live by saying he was disappointed because he'd expected them to make a lot more money together, so that Saul took Jesse's sobriety seriously at all is kind of remarkable IMO. I'm sure some of that "sensitivity" was just because of the practical issue of being fearful of doing business with an actively using junkie, but Saul also did relatively altruistic things like encouraging Jesse not to cook (even while pressuring him to get Walt to cook, natch) and getting Heull to lift Jesse's pot off of him before sending Jesse to the meet with the Disappearer (I know Saul said that that was because he was afraid the Disappearer wouldn't take Jesse if Jesse was high, but Jesse was *already* high, so getting Heull to take the weed seems like trying to shut the barn door after the horses are gone at best, rather than a pragmatic precaution. YMMV).

In general, Saul got pretty worked up whenever he saw Jesse smoking up, which makes some amount of practical sense, but is still kind of weird considering that the only other characters who got worked up like that about pot were Marie and Jesse's parents, who the show seemed to be painting as naive about and entirely divorced from the drug scene. Saul is clearly not naive, but maybe him getting so worked up over pot was also just to show how divorced he actually was from the drugs that he was profiting from, I don't know. And I do think that Saul proved himself to be naive about the drug scene in some ways. But in any case, I can see the possibility of BCS building on that now by establishing that Saul's experience with drugs before BB was that he'd seen someone he loved struggling with addiction.

On the other hand, I can't really see Kim in particular as an addict. She seems so ambitious and disciplined, and I think she would get impatient with feeling hazy and not really being on her game. I don't think that being high would really be a big draw for her. Also, I think that she likes to and can dance on the wild side a little bit -- by playing Giselle or by taking "the good stuff" -- specifically because she actually isn't all that tempted to take that further. Just like she was fine with putting Giselle's $10,000 check in her bedroom mirror and moving on to go back in to work the next day, she's probably OK with taking some Vicodin or whatever and then putting the half-full bottle back in the bathroom cabinet once she's feeling better. She can apparently be a bit compulsive, given that she will push herself to work SO hard, but she was able to institute Relaxathon 2003 and put the breaks on even that when her car accident gave her a wake-up call.

28 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I think even if Jimmy were in the picture to take care of Chuck, the buyout would happen, because the huge malpractice increase was still in play.  That, and the widening knowledge that Chuck was not Chuck anymore, in terms of his mental capacities, and that he was doing damage to HHM's image. 

If Jimmy were in the picture, though, they could have taken up the insurance company offer of a rider (with Jimmy as Chuck's "helper" partner), so the whole scenario would have been somewhat different.

If I were Howard, even given how dire things were between the brothers at the point of the malpractice insurance issue, I actually might have considered offering Chuck the opportunity to either take the buyout and go, or to take a sabbatical for the remaining term of Jimmy's suspension and then split some of his partnership share with Jimmy in return for Jimmy coming on post-suspension as Chuck's "helper" partner (so that they could take advantage of the rider offer). Chuck's partnership share is huge, 33%, so I would think that he could have offered Jimmy a 3% partnership or something (or an even smaller percentage) and they would still have qualified under the terms of the rider. Whether Jimmy would have taken an offer like that is a whole other can of worms, but I think that Chuck would have been able to make it happen if necessary, and I think that *Chuck* would have thought he could make it happen anyway.

Obviously Howard wanted Chuck gone, and Chuck was not really capable of doing real (billable) work because he was so preoccupied by personal troubles, and Howard has his own issues with Jimmy (and reason to distrust him) -- but considering that Howard (and the firm!) couldn't really afford a buyout, I would have at least considered that option if I were him. Plus, it would have been a way to get Chuck off his back for almost a year, if Chuck had agreed. YMMV.

[Blakeston]

On 6/20/2017 at 2:24 PM, Eulipian 5k said:

The first and last bullet points were stated, during last season, to be at Chuck's, and only Chuck's, insistence. The second and third is all on Howard, but neither makes him a jerk, just a snooty law firm partner. But you knew that from the suits, the collar bars, and the primping.

We know that Chuck was behind Howard refusing to hire Jimmy - but I can't imagine that Chuck forced Howard to break the bad news to Jimmy at Jimmy's party. No matter what was going on behind the scenes with Chuck, Howard was a jerk to tell Jimmy in the manner that he did.

As for the nature of Chuck's illness, I don't think there's any question that Chuck truly believed that electricity caused him terrible physical pain. We saw him react in agony to electricity when no one else was around.

Did Chuck care that accommodating his issue made other peoples' lives more difficult? No, not really. But that doesn't mean that the electricity phobia was just a tactic he used as part of a plan to control others. He was genuinely terrified of electricity.

[smorbie]

22 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Again, I disagree that he was being a control freak in that instance.  He knew with 100% certainty, as if the original document was right in front of his face, that the address on the documents he used was 1216 ("One after Magna Carta")  Then he has all these "idiots" (as he reasonably would have viewed them) telling him it's 1261.  That created a level of frustration that caused him to be a little rude to Paige.  Is Kim a "control freak" for slamming the binder in front of Paige when she doubted Kim about the ratios?  No, she was exhausted and frustrated, just like Chuck.  Also, keep in mind that going to the hearing with all the electricity and metal detectors was very emotionally and to him "physically" taxing on Chuck, so he was already on edge, just like Kim was from lack of sleep.  

and that all would be likely except we already know Chuck was an arrogant jerk even when sitting in his electricitiless house.

[smorbie]

3 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Plus exhausted.  I don't think the writers intended to do a PSA on sleep deprivation and the rash decisions that result, but between Kim's accident and Chuck's half-hearted,  lantern-kicking suicide, it's there.  We saw Chuck lie sleepless the night before his dawn to dark heavy labor. 

that's not unusual, either.  Remember the old saying, "things always look better in the morning"?  Well, what if you don't get a morning?  What if your day is 48 hours long, and all of it one big hit after another?  

[ByTor]

4 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I didn't go into prediction mode, but I did wonder if drugs were part of the past she'd been reluctant to talk about.

My thought is that drugs weren't a part of her past, but the "good stuff" comment is foreshadowing the future.

[PeterPirate]

On 6/23/2017 at 7:38 AM, DrSpaceman73 said:

His psychosomatic pain is classic secondary gain in medical terms, which is a classic control issue for patients.  They can't control or deal with things in their life so they create a passive aggressive way of trying to control those around them to help themselves, often leading to extreme problems and adjustments for everyone else besides them. 

And EVERYONE told him it was psychiatric and he refused to believe it or come to terms with it, insisting it was a physical problem and never seeking appropriate treatment for it.  He knew better than everyone else and just expected everyone to accept, come to terms with it and adjust to him.  Control freak. 

I wonder how much of Chuck's illness was because he was losing control over people in general, or because he was losing control over what he considered to be a "chimp with a machine gun".  We know that Chuck was at HHM, seemingly healthy, when Jimmy passed the bar.  

[Ohwell]

ChuckChuckChuckChuckChuckChuckChuckChuckChuckChuckChuckChuckChuckChuckChuckChuck

Arrrrggghhh!!!!

Make him go away!!!!

PLEASE don't have him back next season!!!

[ShadowFacts]

4 hours ago, rue721 said:

On the other hand, I can't really see Kim in particular as an addict. She seems so ambitious and disciplined, and I think she would get impatient with feeling hazy and not really being on her game. I don't think that being high would really be a big draw for her. Also, I think that she likes to and can dance on the wild side a little bit -- by playing Giselle or by taking "the good stuff" -- specifically because she actually isn't all that tempted to take that further. Just like she was fine with putting Giselle's $10,000 check in her bedroom mirror and moving on to go back in to work the next day, she's probably OK with taking some Vicodin or whatever and then putting the half-full bottle back in the bathroom cabinet once she's feeling better. She can apparently be a bit compulsive, given that she will push herself to work SO hard, but she was able to institute Relaxathon 2003 and put the breaks on even that when her car accident gave her a wake-up call.

I don't know if addiction works that way -- very disciplined people get hooked on opioids all the time, people working in jobs in hospitals, etc.  She would be starting out for pain relief, need more and more because smaller doses won't work after awhile, etc.  I get what you're saying about using half the prescription, then putting it away once she feels better, that's what I've done and what many people do, but not everyone.  It's an easy slide into addiction for many people.  Maybe this won't even happen, all we know so far is that she is not averse to the 'good stuff' (and she used NoDoz).  But it would be sort of fitting to see the effects of drug addiction in this show that is beginning to have heavier drug purveyor plotlines.  Not that I necessarily want to see it. 

[Jacob]

Not sure if this has been mentioned. Does anyone see Francesca ultimately working for Saul tell us something about the fate of Kim? If Kim were a practicing lawyer at the time of BB, Francesca would work for her over Saul. 

[Irlandesa]

On 6/23/2017 at 9:27 AM, Bryce Lynch said:

I think by this point, Howard didn't want to see any progress in Chuck.  Chuck was fine with the lights on in his presence.  I thought Chuck's "this is not what fine looks like" was a bit unfair.  Chuck was angry because he was Howard was trying to kick him out of the firm he built from the ground up.  The "maniacal" look had more to do with that, and he was showing that he could handle the electricity by picking up the light. 

I was responding to the idea that Chuck was appearing better off than he actually was.  Whether Howard believed Chuck was not quite as recovered because he knows Chuck well, understands mental illness and recovery, or just didn't want to believe Chuck was better, he still saw Chuck as not quite recovered. 

But whether he believed Chuck or not, I do think the show has laid the groundwork to support his stated reasons to go into personal debt to get Chuck out as not trusting Chuck's judgment any longer.  From Howard questioning a few of Chuck's steps in the tape-gate process to Chuck leaping to lawsuits when confronted with the insurance issue.  But as with everyone on BCS and BB, reasons may be layered.

On 6/23/2017 at 11:45 AM, luna1122 said:

I first saw him on a soap, where he played a cute high school teacher who a teenager believed might have been her rapist (she never saw him), but wasn't.

Hee. I referenced this other time he was falsely accused in a tweet back when we found out that it was Chuck preventing Jimmy from joining HHM.

9 hours ago, Adiba said:

It's possible that Kim becomes addicted to opiods due to her accident and from there, the writers can take the story in a number of directions. Jimmy may enable her, or he may need to make money to help pay for rehab, etc. 

This is being discussed in the speculation without spoilers thread too (including how much I don't want to see that happen) but I would likely question how Saul ends up making the choices he makes if his girlfriend got addicted to drugs.

8 hours ago, rue721 said:

In terms of how Howard handled Chuck's relationship to the firm, the only thing that really made me think less of him as a person was when he tried to pressure Jimmy not to take guardianship and commit Chuck because he (Howard) didn't want Jimmy to have the ability to demand a buyout.

That was certainly Jimmy's interpretation of Howard's motives but this was also back when the show was letting everyone believe it was Howard behind Jimmy's ban from HHM. The thing is, all three of them were on the same side when it came to committing Chuck.  Chuck didn't want to.  Howard likely knew he didn't want to. (And heck, Jimmy's demands that HHM pay out Chuck's share when Chuck didn't seem to want that could also be seen as greedy from HHM's POV--and I don't know that it wasn't petty since he probably saw Hamlin as screwing over both McGill brothers.)  And Jimmy wasn't going to do it either.  Besides, despite how easy the doctor made it seem, committing Chuck would have likely been meant with strong legal resistance from the man himself.

Quote

I don't know if it's to Howard's credit or not that he never tried to get Jimmy and Chuck to patch things up. It seems like it would have been to his benefit if they had. But on the other hand, that probably would only have staved off the inevitable buyout for a little while, because given Chuck's deterioration and what Howard knew of the state of his health, there would probably come a day pretty soon when Jimmy would really have to take guardianship over Chuck, and Jimmy would demand the buyout at that point anyway. So maybe trying to get them to patch things up and to buy a little time that way would have been more trouble than it would have been worth.

I think Chuck's deterioration is directly related to the war he was fighting with Jimmy.  So if things were as they were in the first season, I think the situation could have continued in the status quo for a long time. 

1 hour ago, Jacob said:

Does anyone see Francesca ultimately working for Saul tell us something about the fate of Kim? If Kim were a practicing lawyer at the time of BB, Francesca would work for her over Saul. 

Not necessarily.  While it did seem like she preferred working for Kim at the end, and I think Kim grew to like Francesca, I never got the sense Kim thought she was irreplaceable.  I think a lot depends on where Kim ends up.  If she's in a large law firm, then there might be someone there who could meet her needs.  And if she's solo working out of her house*, she probably won't need a Francesca.

*Other than electricity,  similar working conditions to Chuck with Jimmy to boot.

Edited June 24, 2017 by Irlandesa

[PeterPirate]

3 hours ago, Ohwell said:

ChuckChuckChuckChuckChuckChuckChuckChuckChuckChuckChuckChuckChuckChuckChuckChuck

Arrrrggghhh!!!!

Make him go away!!!!

PLEASE don't have him back next season!!!

16 "Chuck"s?   Not 61?

[Ohwell]

5 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

16 "Chuck"s?   Not 61?

Arrrrrrgggghhhh!!!!!

[ByTor]

4 hours ago, Ohwell said:

ChuckChuckChuckChuckChuckChuckChuckChuckChuckChuckChuckChuckChuckChuckChuckChuck

I have to state my very unpopular opinion...I like Chuck *ducks*

To be more clear, I don't like like him, but I do like having him around, and I like what his story adds to Jimmy's.  I'm going to miss him :(

[Ohwell]

53 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

16 "Chuck"s?   Not 61?

You know, the funny thing is, I swear, I had no idea I typed his name 16 times!  I guess he really has gotten to me. 

[Captanne]

23 hours ago, Jextella said:

On 6/23/2017 at 4:47 PM, Captanne said:

 

I didn't see a safe either.  I think that's an overturned washing machine with the door flung open.

Bravo!  Thank you. I agree. It can stop bothering me now.  You are absolutely right. 

[Jextella]

I had a few thoughts pop into my head today.  One has already left my mind, but the other is this.  

Earlier in the season when Jimmy comes across the Mabel book, he recalls that their mother used to read it to him.  Chuck corrects him and says no.  He was the one to read Mabel to Jimmy.  Jimmy seems to not really remember - much less care.   

In "Lantern" we saw Chuck reading to Jimmy with what appeared to be great love.  When Chuck tells Jimmy he never much cared for him, it could be out of supreme hurt that his really feelings, the ones we saw in the tent when they were kids, weren't reciprocated. 

An eye for an eye, perhaps?

Edited June 25, 2017 by Jextella

[ShellSeeker]

There has been some discussion about Kim developing a substance abuse problem. Please take any further conversation to the speculation thread, as that isn't something that has happened yet -- although that is a very interesting theory.

[Giselle]

4 hours ago, ByTor said:

I have to state my very unpopular opinion...I like Chuck *ducks*

To be more clear, I don't like like him, but I do like having him around, and I like what his story adds to Jimmy's.  I'm going to miss him :(

I liked what the character of Chuck added to Jimmy's story but I was ready for the ungrateful, sanctimonious jerk to get his "come-uppance" or die a long time ago. Jimmy is a jerk but at least he has a heart.

[shapeshifter]

On June 23, 2017 at 5:00 PM, PeterPirate said:

All jokes aside, I won't entertain the idea that Chuck is not dead. I think that cheapens the impact of having Chuck commit suicide. I don't know of another TV show wherein a major character has done that, especially when the actions of the show's main  protagonist and another main character played essential roles in the events leading to the suicide.…

True. I suspect I (and perhaps others) have been seeking proof that Chuck survives because we are in the denial stage of grief for the loss of the character and for the loss of real people whom Chuck represents, specifically, for me, someone who, many years ago, I shunned and who then overdosed.
Plus, we will miss Michael McKeane's great performances.
But we will still have many excellent actors who will have more room to shine with the gap left by MMcK's departure as a main character (assuming flashbacks would mean a more limited role).

Edited June 25, 2017 by shapeshifter

[MisterBluxom]

I was going to post that of all the ways to suicide, surely setting fire to yourself would have to be one of the most painful and you'd be conscious of it the whole time. I was going to suggest that has to be a method that would be close to the bottom of the list.

But then I remember all those Bhuddist monks who pour gasoline over themselves and set it on fire to protest some grave injustice.

I'm left scratching my head. It's hard to believe that most people would hardly ever choose that way to suicide if they could think of most any other way.

[smorbie]

22 hours ago, rue721 said:

On the one hand, this would make sense in light of how sensitive Saul Goodman was toward Jesse's sobriety (sensitive relative to how hilariously insensitive Saul was in general, anyway!

My very favorite Saul line was when he went to check on the woman and little boy Jesse had been taking care, I don't remember her name, but she was the one the bad guys shot in the head near the end.  He walked in, said hi to the woman, looked a the little boy, who was around seven, and said, "How they hanging, kid?"  I laughed so hard at that I had to pause the tv.

13 hours ago, ByTor said:

I have to state my very unpopular opinion...I like Chuck *ducks*

To be more clear, I don't like like him, but I do like having him around, and I like what his story adds to Jimmy's.  I'm going to miss him :(

me, too.  I would MUCH rather watch an hour of the Chuck and Jimmy show every week than one MINUTE of the drug stuff.  yawn

[ByTor]

3 minutes ago, smorbie said:

me, too.  I would MUCH rather watch an hour of the Chuck and Jimmy show every week than one MINUTE of the drug stuff.  yawn

I do like the drug stuff, but, as long as I'm ducking tomatoes, I was pretty happy this was a Mike-free episode.  Don't get me wrong, I like Mike (in the sense that I like having him around & enjoy his stories), but IMO a little of him goes a long way.

[smorbie]

13 hours ago, Jextella said:

I had a few thoughts pop into my head today.  One has already left my mind, but the other is this.  

Earlier in the season when Jimmy comes across the Mabel book, he recalls that their mother used to read it to him.  Chuck corrects him and says no.  He was the one to read Mabel to Jimmy.  Jimmy seems to not really remember - much less care.   

In "Lantern" we saw Chuck reading to Jimmy with what appeared to be great love.  When Chuck tells Jimmy he never much cared for him, it could be out of supreme hurt that his really feelings, the ones we saw in the tent when they were kids, weren't reciprocated. 

An eye for an eye, perhaps?

I remember that conversation and mentioned it earlier in the thread.  But I don't think you could EVER say that Jimmy didn't love Chuck.  Remember how well he took care of him, often at his own expense, in the first year of the show.  Remember how exhausted he was from trying to build his business, fight with Mike, and run around doing Chuck's errands. That was one devoted brother.  At any point he could have gone to Howard and said Chuck needed the firm's help.  But he didn't.  And for all the times he's quit, been done with Chuck for good, he always comes back to check on him.  That's called love.

I think his bland acceptance of Chuck's correction was because it was just ancillary to the point he was making at the time.

Whatever caused the toxic blood between them had nothing to do with lack of love on either side.  

8 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

we will miss Michael McKeane's great performances

This.

I've been a fan since he lone wolfed his way into Laverne and Shirley's apartment lo these many years ago.

5 minutes ago, ByTor said:

I do like the drug stuff, but, as long as I'm ducking tomatoes, I was pretty happy this was a Mike-free episode.  Don't get me wrong, I like Mike (in the sense that I like having him around & enjoy his stories), but IMO a little of him goes a long way.

Yeah, Mike bores me, too.  I'm kind of surprised it turned out that way, but he does.

[benteen]

Yeah, I was fine with a Mike-free episode.  I like Mike but I think I've begun to sour on the character a little after those first two episodes.  I don't consider an entire episode Mike silently doing (obvious) stuff to be that interesting and the character's "I know everything and everyone else is stupid" attitude grates on me at times.

[Giselle]

39 minutes ago, ByTor said:

I do like the drug stuff, but, as long as I'm ducking tomatoes, I was pretty happy this was a Mike-free episode.  Don't get me wrong, I like Mike (in the sense that I like having him around & enjoy his stories), but IMO a little of him goes a long way.

Aw, now see I would be down for an hour of Mike Ehrmantraut every Sunday. But this is Jimmy's story and a scene or two with Mike every episode is fine. Just enough to keep you wanting more.

I don't mind the drug stuff. It's part of the story.

Fire is one if the worst ways to die even as a suicide. I'm reminded of the hard choices some made to jump to their certain death rather than be burned on 9/11. It's not slow or lazy, nor instantaneous unless it's been planned that way or the fire takes on a life of it's own.

While I can see Chuck escaping the fire because his eminent death is a moment of clarity a "wake up, snap out of it, you're going to die realization" with his survival flight and preservation response taking over and I can also see him afterwards ending up committed to a mental hospital which would be pure hell for a mind like his, I think he dies facilitating the birth of Saul Goodman the lawyer.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Giselle

[rue721]

Just now, smorbie said:

My very favorite Saul line was when he went to check on the woman and little boy Jesse had been taking care, I don't remember her name, but she was the one the bad guys shot in the head near the end.  He walked in, said hi to the woman, looked a the little boy, who was around seven, and said, "How they hanging, kid?"  I laughed so hard at that I had to pause the tv.

Yeah, all his interactions with them were actually pretty funny. Remember when he went to their house for the first time (to drop off their check), saw little 6 y/o Brock sitting there, and started going on and on about how much he enjoyed elementary school -- to the point that the camera cut to show a time lapse? That cracks me up. How weird would it be for someone to show up at your house and start going on and onnnnnnn about when he was a first-grader? I don't know, I just can't help but kind of like Saul. He's such a loon.

Just now, smorbie said:

At any point he could have gone to Howard and said Chuck needed the firm's help.  But he didn't.

He kind of did, in trying to demand the buyout. But he asked for help in the most obnoxious way possible, by barging into the conference room to yell at Howard in front of his employees and throw bits of torn up check everywhere, so everyone focused on the medium instead of the message (which is kind of par for the course with Jimmy -- sometimes to his benefit, sometimes not). He also told Chuck that he couldn't handle the (financial) strain of supporting them both and that he needed Chuck to take the buyout.

It seemed to me that he was struggling (not just financially, but he glommed on to the prospect of the buyout as a magic bullet IMO), but I think that Chuck at least subconsciously WANTED Jimmy constantly busy and penniless, because keeping him in a situation where he had to focus all his energy on hustling for his next dollar made him easier to control. Your mileage may vary, but to me, Chuck did A LOT to undermine Jimmy's independence -- including trying to take away his livelihood by stripping him of his license, trying to put a wedge between him and Kim, soaking him for his time and money, undermining his confidence. Chuck rationalized that all of his actions were justified because Jimmy was dangerous and he had to protect the world, the law, Kim, whoever from him -- but IMO that was still just a rationalization. IMO Chuck treated Jimmy like that because it made him feel better to keep Jimmy under his thumb, not for the greater good.

Not to take away from your larger point, though. I agree completely that Jimmy was devoted to Chuck. I have no doubt that he loved him. Chuck destroying his home and himself and literally burning it all to the ground is going to devastate Jimmy. It'll be interesting to see just how he reacts.

13 hours ago, Jextella said:

Earlier in the season when Jimmy comes across the Mabel book, he recalls that their mother used to read it to him.  Chuck corrects him and says no.  He was the one to read Mabel to Jimmy.  Jimmy seems to not really remember - much less care.   

Afterward, though, Jimmy tells Kim how nice it was for Chuck to treat him again like he didn't hate him. I think that Jimmy was enjoying the moment *right then* of bonding with Chuck (when they were peeling the tape off the walls), and that's why he wasn't that focused on who read him that book back in the day. I think his love for Chuck isn't just nostalgia or based on the Chuck he remembers growing up -- he loves him *now,* he cares about the Chuck of *today.*

Anyway, Jimmy will bring up his past in the context of stories about his friends and social life from decades ago, but he doesn't ever really refer to their family from back when he was growing up, and when other people do (like Chuck or Marco), he basically just ignores them or says he doesn't care/remember or maybe makes a dig about one of his parents -- so I don't think the McGill family history is something he's really interested in dwelling on. Considering that by the time of the show, both his parents are dead and his brother has serious problems, I think that's pretty natural, though. Who would want to dwell on the tragic lives and ends of their immediate family? Lol.

[Christina]

8 hours ago, Giselle said:

I liked what the character of Chuck added to Jimmy's story but I was ready for the ungrateful, sanctimonious jerk to get his "come-uppance" or die a long time ago. Jimmy is a jerk but at least he has a heart.

Are you THE Giselle? From Ice Station Zebra? I totally agree with your comment. Chuck was an interesting bad guy to me, and he couldn't see it in himself. The only thing that lead him to recognize he was the bad guy was when Howard paid him with personal money and, of course, he only recognized it as Howard being the bad guy. If he's dead, we won't get the payoff of him having his sanctimonious actions thrown in his face by everyone else, and that disappoints me. On the other hand, not resorting to having his heart growing three sizes and changing his outlook on life, an arc that is played out on television, is a nice change. 

On 6/23/2017 at 7:52 AM, Tikichick said:

(Everybody needs to let the ponytail go already.  That's not what Kim's about.)

*******

++This quote box won't separate so I can type under it, but you'll have to take that up with the showrunners since they have confirmed that the ponytail is showing intentional behavior for her, and we are supposed to take away from the scenes how she is doing emotionally by how she is wearing her hair.

On 6/23/2017 at 6:00 PM, PeterPirate said:

All jokes aside, I won't entertain the idea that Chuck is not dead. I think that cheapens the impact of having Chuck commit suicide. I don't know of another TV show wherein a major character has done that, especially when the actions of the show's main  protagonist and another main character played essential roles in the events leading to the suicide. As far as I'm concerned this show is in uncharted waters.

1 hour ago, MissBluxom said:

I was going to post that of all the ways to suicide, surely setting fire to yourself would have to be one of the most painful and you'd be conscious of it the whole time. I was going to suggest that has to be a method that would be close to the bottom of the list.

But then I remember all those Bhuddist monks who pour gasoline over themselves and set it on fire to protest some grave injustice.

I'm left scratching my head. It's hard to believe that most people would hardly ever choose that way to suicide if they could think of most any other way.

I think having him burn himself to death completely cheapens the impact of having him commit suicide. I think it is an absurd way to kill yourself in general, and specifically for Chuck. A Canadian study showed that only one-percent of suicides are by self-immolation and a quick google search led to other articles that say it is only one-percent in the U.S. and U.K. too, but I didn't pull the PubMed articles on those studies. 

In Israel and Turkey those figures are much higher, but the articles didn't link to any studies. It is considered a form of protest in those countries, with people lighting themselves on fire because they didn't want the marriage they were forced into, a political protest, or a religious ritual. Wikipedia has a discussion of the political and religious self-immolations.

 

On 6/23/2017 at 8:27 PM, Clanstarling said:

My take is that he's exhausted an only has enough physical, and emotional, energy to kick at the table. I believe he's dead. To me it was unequivocal.

They've led Chuck down a path where he has been brought down low. He has no one to turn to, no job to get back to. Nothing but a huge empty house that is a source of pain. He has been betrayed by his body (or mind), his family and friends. He's lost the respect of his closest colleague and his reputation has taken a severe blow - which is probably more devastating than the loss of the personal relationships. He has no future left to build. Suicide seems like the logical next step for a man who is already mentally disturbed.

Exactly. And while I dislike Chuck, it is a sad ending. 

He figuratively burned down his relationship with his last living relative, figuratively burned the only bridge he had keeping him at the firm he started when he threatened Howard that he was going to sue the firm, and literally burned his house down after he lost control of his mental health. I get what they were going for with the parallels, I just don't think it fits with his character, think it would have been more powerful and meaningful to show him committing suicide in a way we would know, without a doubt, that he intended to kill himself.

If he is dead next season, we will probably get a throwaway line about him having taken enough medicine to make it so he couldn't get up and walk out, which is why he was frozen on the chair, and if they go that route, I think it would have been more effective to show him taking a bunch of pills with wine or purposely electrocuting himself. I've read several reviews and comments now, and know that this is a minority opinion and the majority of people enjoyed the way it was written, but I feel cheated and completely unsatisfied by it. That is the only thing I can think of at the moment that was a complete miss for me this season. It took a couple of episodes for me to get into it, but found it excellent otherwise, so I'm sure I'll let it go soon. Maybe. Eh, I'll decide next season when I see how they address it. If there isn't a next season, I'll rant like the people who watched Lost and The Sopranos. Bitter, angry rants.

 

19 hours ago, Blakeston said:

As for the nature of Chuck's illness, I don't think there's any question that Chuck truly believed that electricity caused him terrible physical pain. We saw him react in agony to electricity when no one else was around.

Did Chuck care that accommodating his issue made other peoples' lives more difficult? No, not really. But that doesn't mean that the electricity phobia was just a tactic he used as part of a plan to control others. He was genuinely terrified of electricity.

Psychosomatic illnesses actually cause the symptoms the person complains of having. He is actually feeling pain and discomfort from electricity. He is not actually allergic to electricity, but it doesn't matter because his body is reacting like he is. He isn't intentionally faking or making anything up; he's truly sick. I agree with your first paragraph.

However, even though I don't think he used his illness to make others' lives more difficult or to control them, I think he is a control freak and when he found himself sick his need to control everything just carried over to it. He thinks he is the smartest person in the room at all times and that everyone else owes him deferential treatment because he is superior to them. The scenes some of you watched and didn't think showed him to be a control freak made me think the complete opposite. 

He gets much worse when Jimmy "slips" because he can't control it and he can't control Jimmy. He couldn't control his wife leaving him to tour with an orchestra, and he started falling apart. He can't control the law firm or Howard any longer and he decides to commit suicide. 

[Gobi]

Chuck may have staged it so as not to look like a suicide, and using fire is a good way to do that. It is possible that HHM has a large life insurance policy on Chuck (which might be void at this point); or, if not for insurance purposes, then to hide that he had been beaten and gave up on life.

[JudyObscure]

18 hours ago, Jacob said:

Not sure if this has been mentioned. Does anyone see Francesca ultimately working for Saul tell us something about the fate of Kim? If Kim were a practicing lawyer at the time of BB, Francesca would work for her over Saul. 

I think Francesca would always choose Saul over Kim.  From her first interview it was obvious, "You had me with old people!" that Jimmy really liked Francesca, while Kim had to be talked into hiring her.  Francesca has worked hard for Kim and I'm sure she likes her, but I've thought I detected moments that might indicate Francesca was a little bit in love with Jimmy.

[JudyObscure]

4 minutes ago, Gobi said:

Chuck may have staged it so as not to look like a suicide, and using fire is a good way to do that. It is possible that HHM has a large life insurance policy on Chuck (which might be void at this point); or, if not for insurance purposes, then to hide that he had been beaten and gave up on life.

Plus lots of homeowners insurance  will try to weasel out of other things -- like insane amounts of damage done while looking for electricity-- but almost all of them will cover fire.  Maybe we'll see Chuck in a nice new house next season!  I hated that gloomy, yellow beached whale.

[rue721]

3 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

I think Francesca would always choose Saul over Kim.

I think that Francesca likes Kim better than Jimmy. She seemed excited to try and get Kim back on track with work after the accident, but when Jimmy was talking about rehiring her, she was pretty noncommittal. And Francesca really didn't seem to like Saul -- for obvious reasons ;)

But to me, it seems like Kim doesn't really care either way about her, whereas Jimmy seems to like Francesca, or at least to feel a responsibility toward her since they hired her. Kim wanted to see more candidates initially, she was fine with letting Francesca go (along with the rest of the office) after the bar hearing, she just generally seems indifferent to her to me. Whereas Jimmy was the one to push to hire Francesca initially, he refused to let her go when he got suspended, he was the one who brought her up when they were talking (post-accident) about giving up the office, and he was the one who said they'd rehire her when they could.

I think that Francesca would choose a job offer from Kim over one from Jimmy, everything else being equal, but I think that Kim wouldn't bother contacting her for another job (or a re-hire) whereas Jimmy would.

[smorbie]

The thing about it is that if Jimmy weren't a criminal but still had his personality, I would LOVE to have worked for him.  It would never have been boring.

[benteen]

2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Plus lots of homeowners insurance  will try to weasel out of other things -- like insane amounts of damage done while looking for electricity-- but almost all of them will cover fire.  Maybe we'll see Chuck in a nice new house next season!  I hated that gloomy, yellow beached whale.

I have to admit, I've always liked the inside of Chuck's house.  The darkness and the light shinning through always made it look like a nice house to me. 

[MaryPatShelby]

On 6/20/2017 at 0:46 AM, Lonesome Rhodes said:

In Talking Saul Gould made it very clear that the intention is that Chuck is most sincerely dead. T

Showrunners need to tell the story they want to tell in the actual show, and if they'd like an aspect of that story to be ambiguous they need to shut up about it in the supplemental content.  I am not a crackpot.

[Jextella]

15 hours ago, smorbie said:

I remember that conversation and mentioned it earlier in the thread.  But I don't think you could EVER say that Jimmy didn't love Chuck.  Remember how well he took care of him, often at his own expense, in the first year of the show.  Remember how exhausted he was from trying to build his business, fight with Mike, and run around doing Chuck's errands. That was one devoted brother.  At any point he could have gone to Howard and said Chuck needed the firm's help.  But he didn't.  And for all the times he's quit, been done with Chuck for good, he always comes back to check on him.  That's called love.

I think his bland acceptance of Chuck's correction was because it was just ancillary to the point he was making at the time.

Whatever caused the toxic blood between them had nothing to do with lack of love on either side.  

This.

I've been a fan since he lone wolfed his way into Laverne and Shirley's apartment lo these many years ago.

Yeah, Mike bores me, too.  I'm kind of surprised it turned out that way, but he does.

Sorry to duplicate concepts, Smorbie!  I can't keep up with all the posts.

Ok. So, the other thought I had - is the concept of reprcussions of actions.  Vince has talked quite a bit about how the characters in BB and now BCS must face the consequences of their actions.  Both Kim and Howard have suffered by virtue of their relationships with the McGill Brothers.  Kim has said a few times that she's an adult and takes responsibility for her actions.  Howard owned up to his decisions making by forking over 3 million of his own dollars to Chuck. 

I'm not even sure where I'm even going with this....but it struck me recently how Kim and Howard seem to get the idea that decisions have consequences - and they own up to their mistakes.

[TVFan17]

16 hours ago, Giselle said:

Aw, now see I would be down for an hour of Mike Ehrmantraut every Sunday. But this is Jimmy's story and a scene or two with Mike every episode is fine. Just enough to keep you wanting more.

I don't mind the drug stuff. It's part of the story.

Fire is one if the worst ways to die even as a suicide. I'm reminded of the hard choices some made to jump to their certain death rather than be burned on 9/11. It's not slow or lazy, nor instantaneous unless it's been planned that way or the fire takes on a life of it's own.

While I can see Chuck escaping the fire because his eminent death is a moment of clarity a "wake up, snap out of it, you're going to die realization" with his survival flight and preservation response taking over and I can also see him afterwards ending up committed to a mental hospital which would be pure hell for a mind like his, I think he dies facilitating the birth of Saul Goodman the lawyer.

I actually think that Better Call Saul has turned into less of Jimmy's story now, and is more a 50/50 show -- half of it is Jimmy's story, and the other half is the cartel storyline, which is the Mike/Nacho part of the series (and then we get little subplots here and there, with recurring supporting characters).  Some episodes might focus entirely on the drug story, and other episodes might focus entirely on Jimmy/Kim/Chuck/Howard.   Every now and then we might see Jimmy and Mike doing some sort of business together, but it's not often (yet).  

I think the intention at first was to have BCS focus on mostly Jimmy-related things with a bit of Mike thrown in, but, as the show progressed, Gilligan and Gould decided to develop the Mike/cartel side and bring in more of the BB people to help in that endeavor.     In other words, I think the show may be called Better Call Saul because that was the original title, but it is veering away more often from Jimmy/Saul stories and into the other section of the show -- which I am totally fine with.   To me it seems like a pretty even divide.   I am realizing that I'm enjoying getting all of the back story on Hector and how awful he is, even when I never knew I wanted that back story!  I'm enjoying all of the Nacho stuff much more now than I did in Season 1.  I like the Gus-Lydia connection (exactly how well do they know each other?), and hope it's explored more in Season 4.

[benteen]

I think the Mike/drug aspect is the most interesting part of the show and it's the part of the show that has the most urgency.  Not that Jimmy's storyline isn't interesting but even Jimmy's storyline works better when he's in conflict with someone like Chuck.

[Jextella]

Jimmy does land head first in the criminal realk in BB so the strory has to go there regardless.  Walt had a few peripheral stories going  on:

• Skyler/Walt Jr.
• Hank/Gomie
• Elliott and Gretchen Schwartz

Saul needs the same.  For now he has

• Kim
• Chuck/HHM
• Chicago life

I think the drug stuff alone isn't enough to carry the show.  We need the background and stories about other things going on in his life to give the story depth - and to make us care.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Jextella

[Tikichick]

@Christina  Quoting your post didn't work because you had the problem with the quote box.

When I referred to the fact of letting the ponytail go because that's not what Kim's about, I meant that Kim dresses for function and is not focused on hair, makeup, fashion as a major portion of her life.  I can totally accept the writers saying her hair is indicative of what's going on with her.    If she puts her hair in that ponytail she knows it will stay precisely in place and she can focus entirely on legal matters at hand.  

That's why I say everybody needs to get over the ponytail already.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Tikichick

[Tikichick]

On 6/23/2017 at 4:47 PM, Captanne said:

Please look at the video.  There is no rope.  You can see his fingers.  But no rope.

 

 

I never said specifically rope.  I said a horizontal line across his chest, a band and/or it looks like his upper torso is restrained.  I also didn't say his hands were tied up, merely that it appears his arms are restrained from shoulder to elbow.

It makes no storyline sense to me either how this would be achieved, or why it would fit the storyline in any way.    I did see it again on the television screen when my daughter came home for the weekend and watched the episode.  She didn't think it looked like Chuck was tied at all.  I noticed nothing when I originally watched the episode, but my husband pointed it out and we rewound several times.  I can see both viewpoints.

Bottom line, what I don't want to see is the end of the McGill brothers story.  I was rooting for an eventual reconciliation -- even if it was Chuck/Gene.  I actually suspected the vengeful, whipsmart tenacity of Chuck might have been part of Gene's extreme paranoia about being discovered.

[Gobi]

1 hour ago, Tikichick said:

I never said specifically rope.  I said a horizontal line across his chest, a band and/or it looks like his upper torso is restrained.  I also didn't say his hands were tied up, merely that it appears his arms are restrained from shoulder to elbow.

It makes no storyline sense to me either how this would be achieved, or why it would fit the storyline in any way.    I did see it again on the television screen when my daughter came home for the weekend and watched the episode.  She didn't think it looked like Chuck was tied at all.  I noticed nothing when I originally watched the episode, but my husband pointed it out and we rewound several times.  I can see both viewpoints.

Bottom line, what I don't want to see is the end of the McGill brothers story.  I was rooting for an eventual reconciliation -- even if it was Chuck/Gene.  I actually suspected the vengeful, whipsmart tenacity of Chuck might have been part of Gene's extreme paranoia about being discovered.

If Chuck ever found out about Gene, the first thing he would do is turn him in to the police.

[Eulipian 5k]

There is a difference of death by self immolation and death by house fire. Pouring gas or accelerant on yourself and igniting it guarantees a painful, spectacle of a death. In house fires, the fire dept says that the flames usually burn an unconscious body. The death is usually due to smoke inhalation.

Chuck was defeated, he wanted it over. I don't think he was going to debate what would cause the most hurt or damage to Jimmy or to Howard, he wasn't even going to get out of bed to kill himself at that point.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Eulipian 5k
not dead yet!