S01.E10: Night

[Umbelina]

9 hours ago, Fex said:

I thought maybe the Handmaid's would stone Aunt Lydia, or the soldiers. But not participating in this backwards society's gross violence at all is a pretty good choice, too.

I keep reading this.  Honestly it  makes not sense to me at all, no offense intended to you FEX, I just happened to respond to your post on this.  Many others have said the same thing.

Put yourself in their position.  You are surrounded by men in combat gear carrying machine guns.  The ONLY powerful person there that is stopping them from mowing you, and your fellow Housemaids down is Aunt Lydia. 

Why on earth would you try to kill the only person of authority there that is preventing them from shooting all of you?  Why would you use ONE rock to take on machine guns? 

Never.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Umbelina
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[Fex]

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

I keep reading this.  Honestly it  makes not sense to me at all, no offense intended to you FEX, I just happened to respond to your post on this.  Many others have said the same thing.

Put yourself in their position.  You are surrounded by men in combat gear carrying machine guns.  The ONLY powerful person there that is stopping them from mowing you, and your fellow Housemaids down is Aunt Lydia. 

Why on earth would you try to kill the only person of authority there than is preventing them from shooting you?  Why would you use ONE rock to take on machine guns? 

Never.

I think it would be a terrible idea! But I thought that given June's comment at the beginning of the episode about them being an army, that might be where they were going with it. Does that help?

[Umbelina]

insert smiley

No, not really.  Then again, I know guns, and have been around guns.  Those guys had helmets on and padded vests, presumably bullet proof.  There is no way in hell I would provoke them.  Being an "army" doesn't mean being stupid.  Aunt Lydia was the only person who stopped them from shooting, no way in hell would I try to throw rocks at her.

[Emily Thrace]

19 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

That they were a military faction would make sense, but again, the show doesn't say this.  Even if this were a military faction, would the rest of the world sit back as the country with the largest economy and military had its people slaughtered and enslaved?  Surely they would see this wasn't a mere fight between two parties for power once they saw the "new" government essentially carpet-bombing the country with chemical and nuclear weapons?  Surely long before the U.S. was fully subsumed, they would already suspect that a cabal like the Sons of Jacob would not stop at the border?  They wouldn't necessarily know that Gilead was weak and desperate (if it even is, comparatively) - or rather, would know that Gilead's desperation would make it that much more dangerous.

If Gilead didn't control the US military and the full nuclear arsenal, it wouldn't have control of the country.  As for the Commonwealth countries you mentioned, the US military is probably as large as all of their forces combined.  Gilead with the US's fire power would be a scary, scary country.  While the U.S. might not want to take territory from its neighbors, Gilead might be a different animal entirely.   

You claim Canada is too dangerous to take over - and the US isn't?  The world would shrug its shoulders as hundreds of millions of people in the US were murdered or enslaved, but Canada would be a bridge too far?  

I think if they had any brains at all they would be smart not to try. First of all every theory or projection about invading Canada has said the same thing, you could invade in summer and you might do well until winter hits. After winter hits you would be lucky to hold on to what you grabbed in summer before Canada could come up with a counter attack to push you out again.  That's actually one of the reasons why one of biggest military bases is in Edmonton. Its far enough away from the border to work as a fallback point for CFB Shilo and the other more southern bases in the West. In the end I don't think it would be worth it for Gilead. They also would simply be pissing off to many other countries to make it worthwhile. Also the entire common wealth army probably  would be larger than whatever Gilead could muster. I doubt they have the entire US military and even if they did the US was stretched when it was trying to hold Afghanistan and Iraq at the same time Canada is twice the size and has much stronger military presence. I think Gilead wouldn't be in a hurry to overstretch themselves. That will bring them down even faster than resistance we could inflict. 

[Keener]

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

On the other hand if Canada loses its biggest trade partner and birth rates are way down they could be in desperate need of immigrants. I'm no ecomist but Canada is rich in resources and has a trade deficit with the US. So if the counrty wants to be able to have stuff and be more self-sufficient, bringing in immigrants and building up manufacturing would probably be a good idea,

Birth rates are already down in Canada from the Canadian-born population. The only thing keeping the rates relatively stable are the immigrant population. If it wasn't for immigrants, Canada would have a declining population like Japan, Germany or Italy. (This is one of the significant reasons that Germany was so eager to help with the resettlement of refugees, their population need repopulating). In the Western world, women are waiting longer to have children because they are pursuing jobs, education, and child-free lives. When they are finally ready to have children (approximately at age 30+) their biological window is already closing and as a result have less children or none at all due to fertility issues. 

Which reminds me of something that nags at me. The women that were in the Janine-stone throwing circle looked significantly older. Like I'd have guessed 35+ for many of the women shown on camera. I would've thought they'd get 20-somethings to be the Handmaids in the circle. 

[Umbelina]

13 minutes ago, Keener said:

Birth rates are already down in Canada from the Canadian-born population. The only thing keeping the rates relatively stable are the immigrant population. If it wasn't for immigrants, Canada would have a declining population like Japan, Germany or Italy. (This is one of the significant reasons that Germany was so eager to help with the resettlement of refugees, their population need repopulating). In the Western world, women are waiting longer to have children because they are pursuing jobs, education, and child-free lives. When they are finally ready to have children (approximately at age 30+) their biological window is already closing and as a result have less children or none at all due to fertility issues. 

Which reminds me of something that nags at me. The women that were in the Janine-stone throwing circle looked significantly older. Like I'd have guessed 35+ for many of the women shown on camera. I would've thought they'd get 20-somethings to be the Handmaids in the circle. 

I thought they would go for young teens, but maybe because of the various murders and declining birth rates there just weren't enough of them.  Biologically and frankly, even as a matter of control, the younger the women, the better for having babies, especially with no medical help available to assist 30+ year old women in getting pregnant.

[Kel Varnsen]

18 minutes ago, Emily Thrace said:

I doubt they have the entire US military and even if they did the US was stretched when it was trying to hold Afghanistan and Iraq at the same time Canada is twice the size and has much stronger military presence.

I imagine they wouldn't have to have a smaller military. First off no, women, no gays and no catholics or jews who refuse to denounce their faith. Plus I imagine the pacific fleet based in Hawaii would still be under US control. Plus any educated science types who think Gilead's ideas are bullshit, who are the kind of people you need to run a modern military (you can't refer to scripture to figure out how to fix a radar).

As far as your comparison of Afghanistan and Iraq to Canada one other interesting point is that with those countries, spies or insurgents or infiltrators would be much easier to spot just because they look different. If Gilead tried to take Canada spies would look just like them, talk just like them and generally know most of the same cultural references.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Fex said:

I would never in a million years use Kraft Dinner for mac and cheese, unless it was Kraft brand boxed mac and cheese. Must be specific to where you are! Or, the lack of that is specific to where I am, lol!

The Barenaked Ladies must be from the part of Canada where they say Kraft Dinner.  That line in their song always struck me as funny.   I never realized people ate that stuff for dinner, much less referred to it by that.  Heh.  Not a fan of it.  

The idea of referring to a Canadian as an American is way more ludicrous, though.  (Though I wish they were, as it'd probably raise our national IQ and improve our collective personality quite a bit.)

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

insert smiley

No, not really.  Then again, I know guns, and have been around guns.  Those guys had helmets on and padded vests, presumably bullet proof.  There is no way in hell I would provoke them.  Being an "army" doesn't mean being stupid.  Aunt Lydia was the only person who stopped them from shooting, no way in hell would I try to throw rocks at her.

What I thought the Handmaids were going to do in defiance of the stoning was go join Janine in the middle of the circle, one by one.  

[Kel Varnsen]

14 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

The Barenaked Ladies must be from the part of Canada where they say Kraft Dinner.  That line in their song always struck me as funny.   I never realized people ate that stuff for dinner, much less referred to it by that.  Heh.  Not a fan of it.  

I believe they can't call it macaroni and cheese here because orange powder is not considered cheese in the eyes of the law.

[Brn2bwild]

11 hours ago, EC Amber said:

I find this line of thinking rather fascinating. We Americans tend to think that we are so powerful and influential that should anything truly awful befall us we'll have many countries, or some countries, or a few at least coming to help us. 

If that's proven true with other countries, why shouldn't it be true of the US as well?

And maybe I'm just cynical, but I really don't think they will. If we were suffering from environmental disaster that were devastating and widespread then our value as a natural resource is damaged. With the loss of population we lose our manufacturing and with that our ability to trade. With the loss of science and rational thought we lose innovation and progress. 

America in these circumstances would be far less valuable to maintain and support... and if she falls under what we from the show there really isn't that much incentive to go help. Which means we rely on the milk of human kindness, on the intervention of others on a moral basis. 

Even a wounded beast is still powerful... and dangerous.  

North Korea 

Humans will let each other oppress, torture, and murder each other on a national level for generations without lifting a finger. There really isn't much by way of human kindness in terms of international intervention. 

This is why the idea that given time the Martha's and Handmaid's and Econowives and the men who don't get "assigned a woman" won't successfully rise up... not for a long time. Again, North Korea... the entire country is full of walking wounded, people traumatized, generations starved. The psyche of North Korea has been forever marred because of the grueling decades of a fascist regime. What do you think the psyche of women in places like Afghanistan must be like? How many generations will that follow them...?  I suspect the same will be seen with Gilead. Decades, generations of women oppressed and powerless. 

As someone in a later comment noted, the countries mentioned have had decades of oppression, whereas Gilead has had only a few years to sink in.

Comments above in bold.

[Brn2bwild]

1 hour ago, Emily Thrace said:

I think if they had any brains at all they would be smart not to try. First of all every theory or projection about invading Canada has said the same thing, you could invade in summer and you might do well until winter hits. After winter hits you would be lucky to hold on to what you grabbed in summer before Canada could come up with a counter attack to push you out again.  That's actually one of the reasons why one of biggest military bases is in Edmonton. Its far enough away from the border to work as a fallback point for CFB Shilo and the other more southern bases in the West. In the end I don't think it would be worth it for Gilead. They also would simply be pissing off to many other countries to make it worthwhile. Also the entire common wealth army probably  would be larger than whatever Gilead could muster. I doubt they have the entire US military and even if they did the US was stretched when it was trying to hold Afghanistan and Iraq at the same time Canada is twice the size and has much stronger military presence. I think Gilead wouldn't be in a hurry to overstretch themselves. That will bring them down even faster than resistance we could inflict. 

Again, it's this notion that everyone would be up in arms over an invasion of Canada, while shrugging their shoulders or even popping popcorn if people in the US were subjugated or killed.  I realize the US is the popular boogeyman, but other countries gave a fuck about us after 9-11, and after other tragedies we suffered.  I'd imagine at least some would in the face of a much larger tragedy. 

[Umbelina]

4 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

Again, it's this notion that everyone would be up in arms over an invasion of Canada, while shrugging their shoulders or even popping popcorn if people in the US were subjugated or killed.  I realize the US is the popular boogeyman, but other countries gave a fuck about us after 9-11, and after other tragedies we suffered.  I'd imagine at least some would in the face of a much larger tragedy. 

They've shown this as well when Moira arrived.  They talked about possibly relocating her to another country that is presumably also taking in refugees from Gilead.  Canada is quite probably only a first stop for some, because of the shared border and relative closeness to what seems to be Gilead proper.  I seriously doubt the rest of Gilead looks like the tiny world we've seen where the leaders live.

[chocolatine]

I see Canada in the show's context as similar to Jordan and Turkey for Syrian refugees. They can provide short-term relief, but they don't have the resources to permanently absorb all incoming refugees. So most of the refugees go there to escape immediate danger, but once there apply for permanent resettlement to other countries.

Edited June 28, 2017 by chocolatine

[secnarf]

13 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

Again, it's this notion that everyone would be up in arms over an invasion of Canada, while shrugging their shoulders or even popping popcorn if people in the US were subjugated or killed.  I realize the US is the popular boogeyman, but other countries gave a fuck about us after 9-11, and after other tragedies we suffered.  I'd imagine at least some would in the face of a much larger tragedy. 

I often wonder about this - I think everybody, regardless of the country they live in, would like to think that other countries would intervene in case anything like this were to happen to their country. But then, look at how reluctant many countries are to intervene in conflicts elsewhere in the world today.

I think decades ago - with the world wars, Korean war, Vietnam war, etc there was a general sense of obligation and a (real or perceived) benefit to the countries that were intervening. The pendulum then swung the other way, so countries are quite reluctant to intervene unless there is a real tangible benefit to them. And then, it tends to be wealthier countries intervening in poorer countries. If the US were in trouble, it'd be difficult even with several other countries banded together to be able to intervene in their domestic affairs, and with something so insidious there wouldn't be the unity that you would see after something so blatant as 9/11. I could see the world letting Gilead take power in a similar way to how Hitler gained power, with appeasement and turning a blind eye.

[Emily Thrace]

2 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

Again, it's this notion that everyone would be up in arms over an invasion of Canada, while shrugging their shoulders or even popping popcorn if people in the US were subjugated or killed.  I realize the US is the popular boogeyman, but other countries gave a fuck about us after 9-11, and after other tragedies we suffered.  I'd imagine at least some would in the face of a much larger tragedy. 

That's not really what I was trying to say but the two conflicts would get a very different reaction for a couple of reasons. Gilead emerging in the US would be seen as in internal conflict so other countries wouldn't be allowed to intervene under most international statutes.  There would be a time when no one would be sure who was the legitimate US government so they would hold back on sending aid until they knew what was going on. We actually know they have responded somewhat with trade sanctions. Which would be the proper response to something like this. Invading Gilead even at the behest of whatever is left of the US government would be interfering in an internal matter and a violation of US sovereignty. Its the same reason no one has invaded North Korea and not officially chosen sides in Syria. As horrible as it sound they have the right to treat their citizens however they want that what being a sovereign nation is.    Invading Canada however would be an external conflict so Canada would have every right to ask for help from their allies. There probably would be countries jumping at the chance to to take on Gilead.

[EC Amber]

10 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

If that's proven true with other countries, why shouldn't it be true of the US as well?

Mmmm, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. *What* specifically has been proven? My understanding is that nations tend to get involved when they are either feeling threatened directly or they have some incentive to get involved. Humanitarian reasons don't fall in either category. Gilead is too weak to be a legitimate threat to any country - including Canada and Mexico. And there really isn't much by way of incentive. As I pointed out - their resources have been damaged (so much so that people attempting to clean up the mess lose their skin "in sheets"), Gilead is a poor source of exports (so much that they are considering trading the only thing that has any value, and they don't have that many Handmaid's) and they are steeped in enforced ignorance and superstition. Gilead simply has very little to offer the world that would cause them to intervene. And the world has enough to deal with without taking on the problems of Gilead. 

 

10 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

Even a wounded beast is still powerful... and dangerous.

Sure, even more incentive to *not* get involved. North Korea is extraordinarily dangerous and powerful. Still, it's been over 7 decades of them starving and torturing their population. Anyone lift a finger for them? Not even the Red Cross/Red Crescent do anything aside of throw food at them when they aren't under sanction. Those who are helping the people *directly* can be counted without breaking the triple digits. The whole world condemns them. That doesn't actually amount of much by way of alleviating the situation. 

 

10 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

As someone in a later comment noted, the countries mentioned have had decades of oppression, whereas Gilead has had only a few years to sink in.

In the mid-late 40's the Korea's had been separated only a few years. In the 70's women could wear dresses and not wear the veil in Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan. 

Every fascist regime has a Day One. 

 

[Guest]

14 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I believe they can't call it macaroni and cheese here because orange powder is not considered cheese in the eyes of the law.

Oh wow, I had no idea it was actually called Kraft Dinner on the box there!  I googled it up to see and this pic actually says it has cheese, also.  Maybe they tweaked the recipe later, or the laws.  It's weird because here in the US they have to specify certain non-cheese products like Velveeta as pasteurized processed cheese product.  I guess the Kraft stuff is derived from real cheese, though it also has whey and lots of additives, though apparently they made the colors all natural recently.  

But that color in the picture, and the sheen?  I make it from scratch occasionally and it looks nothing like that.  Heh.

 

Edited June 28, 2017 by Guest

[dleighg]

Just a little thing I noticed-- after June found out she was pregnant she had a flashback to when she was pregnant with Hannah, and she and Luke were speculating about the baby being a great tennis player, like Serena Williams. 

A few moments later the commander comes into the library and addresses his wife by name. "Serena?"

Just another little gut punch about how a "woman's place" has gotten flipped on its head.

[Trillian]

At the risk of taking this even more off topic, it is a Canadianism to refer to things by their brand names.  There are a few of them on this list: http://www.americansguide.ca/isms.html, including Kraft Dinner.  when I make macaroni and cheese, I refer to it as "homemade Kraft Dinner"  I also make "homemade Beefaroni".  And when something spills on the rug, I Hoover it.

[kingshearte]

On 6/14/2017 at 1:06 PM, Anela said:

Waterford blaming his wife for his own sins - I could compare him to a certain someone who never takes any responsibility for his own actions. She had sex with her husband, so she was at fault for waking up his lust? Nope, he was breaking the rules before that, and he could have said no. He could have sent her away. They're both monsters.

Well, there was that offered blow job that time he couldn't get it up for the ceremony. So his subsequent downward spiral was clearly her fault.

On 6/27/2017 at 11:06 PM, Brn2bwild said:

Again, it's this notion that everyone would be up in arms over an invasion of Canada, while shrugging their shoulders or even popping popcorn if people in the US were subjugated or killed.  I realize the US is the popular boogeyman, but other countries gave a fuck about us after 9-11, and after other tragedies we suffered.  I'd imagine at least some would in the face of a much larger tragedy. 

As others have pointed out, there is a difference between a foreign power invading or attacking, and American citizens killing other American citizens. And, frankly, so much of that already happens that it might take the rest of the world a while to notice that anything unusual was happening. Although I suppose the mass killing of the government would probably be a clue. Still, if it's perpetrated by other Americans (even if they're calling themselves something else), the lines to determine the appropriate international response are murky.

On 6/29/2017 at 8:57 AM, Trillian said:

At the risk of taking this even more off topic, it is a Canadianism to refer to things by their brand names.  There are a few of them on this list: http://www.americansguide.ca/isms.html, including Kraft Dinner.  when I make macaroni and cheese, I refer to it as "homemade Kraft Dinner"  I also make "homemade Beefaroni".  And when something spills on the rug, I Hoover it.

I think that, like many things that are considered "Canadianisms," that's more of a regional thing. I do not use KD as a generic term, and I don't believe I have ever in my life used hoover as a verb (although I am familiar with its use as such). I also don't call hoodies bunnyhugs, which is apparently a thing elsewhere in the country, or use any number of other terms widely considered "Canadianisms." And I'm sure I do say some things that people in the rest of the country don't — like hydro for electricity. I think that's largely confined to eastern Canada, where a huge chunk of our power is water-generated. Anyway...

I was also pretty stoked to see Moira make it to Canada (also agree that "Welcome to Ontario" is a weird thing to say), and thought Samira Wiley was beautiful to watch through those scenes. Maybe next season we'll get to learn more about her journey there? That'd be cool.

Yvonne Strahovski is seriously killing this role. That woman is horrible, but there are moments when the tiny flashes of something still peek through. I was actually impressed that, when she got back into the car after the Hannah outing, she left the glass down for a while. She knew that June would react the way she did (thus her wisely getting into the front seat), and she easily could have just shut it out completely. But she didn't. And there's a little part of me that believes that it was a kind of penance, almost. That she knows she's stooped to a truly low place and is willingly subjecting herself to June's resulting vitriol. Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that June getting to yell at her makes them even or anything of the sort. But it's one of the tiny sparks of humanity that keeps the character compelling, despite her horribleness.

Ann Dowd: also killing it. She is also guilty of some truly terrible stuff, but she really does come across like she really believes in what she's doing, and in the idea that all of it is actually for the benefit of the handmaids. It's a basically incomprehensible position, but she sells it, and that's amazing.

When I recently reread the book, I was torn between wanting more story and appreciating it being left with so many unanswered questions, but if there's going to be more... I don't think I'm complaining.

[marinw]

2 hours ago, kingshearte said:

Ann Dowd: also killing it. She is also guilty of some truly terrible stuff, but she really does come across like she really believes in what she's doing, and in the idea that all of it is actually for the benefit of the handmaids.

Yes. Aunt Lydia almost seems like a cartoon villian, only Ann Dowd holds it back just enough to be terrifying.

Edited July 1, 2017 by marinw

[topanga]

On 6/29/2017 at 7:29 AM, dleighg said:

Just a little thing I noticed-- after June found out she was pregnant she had a flashback to when she was pregnant with Hannah, and she and Luke were speculating about the baby being a great tennis player, like Serena Williams. 

A few moments later the commander comes into the library and addresses his wife by name. "Serena?"

Just another little gut punch about how a "woman's place" has gotten flipped on its head.

Great posts by everyone. I won't rehash what other people have said. Just want to chime in that I loved the entire season, and it never dragged for me. And Elisabeth Moss is amazing. If she doesn't get at least nominated for every possible award, there's something wrong with this world. 

Yes, I noticed the Serena Williams comment--a very tender moment between Luke and June. And your post made me wonder, and I know this is a small thing, but what happened to female athletes in Gilead? Women like Serena Williams, Venus Williams, Simone Biles, or Elena Della Donne?

And what about other notable women? The judges, the CEOs, the talk show hosts? The Kardashians, for Christ's sake! *sarcasm*  If they're young enough, have they been made Handmaids? Or are they Marthas? Are they at places like Jezebels? Or have some of them been executed? 

[chocolatine]

10 minutes ago, topanga said:

And what about other notable women? The judges, the CEOs, the talk show hosts? The Kardashians, for Christ's sake! *sarcasm*  If they're young enough, have they been made Handmaids? Or are they Marthas? Are they at places like Jezebels? Or have some of them been executed? 

I think all of the above. When June asked Fred about the women at Jezebels, he said they were lawyers, CEOs, etc. - "they like it better here". Nick's Martha friend at Jezebels said she was a James Beard award winner, ie. a very famous chef. We saw a woman dressed in a business suit hanging on the Wall. Emily had been a college professor.

[EC Amber]

1 hour ago, chocolatine said:

I think all of the above. When June asked Fred about the women at Jezebels, he said they were lawyers, CEOs, etc. - "they like it better here". Nick's Martha friend at Jezebels said she was a James Beard award winner, ie. a very famous chef. We saw a woman dressed in a business suit hanging on the Wall. Emily had been a college professor.

I totally agree, but I'm surprised that there are that many of them... it seems like when shit hit the fan, the ones with funds would get out ASAP. 

Thing is - how many would Gilead even want, at least of the celebrities (there's a joke in there for the Kardashians)? Would they want Angelina Joile running up a head of steam with Bono? Or would they execute Oprah? Think they would give her a quiet exit thinking it would be easier to ignore her than to explain her sudden death or disappearance? 

Pure speculation, but was musing about it... 

[Pachengala]

Hell, we're already making informal plans to get out of dodge should things get [even] worse, so I think that people of means would have hightailed it the moment the fist started to clench. Even after travel was restricted, money can get you what you need. Yeah, it's fiction, but you're right, it's still interesting to speculate. 

[AllyB]

6 hours ago, EC Amber said:

Thing is - how many would Gilead even want, at least of the celebrities (there's a joke in there for the Kardashians)? Would they want Angelina Joile running up a head of steam with Bono? Or would they execute Oprah? Think they would give her a quiet exit thinking it would be easier to ignore her than to explain her sudden death or disappearance? 

Anyone with the funds to get out would have. Obviously very early on all women were forbidden to work and had their bank accounts frozen. But mega-wealthy people tend to diversify and have money and assets all over the world. So if you were Angelina Jolie and suddenly forbidden from working and had your access to your American money handed over to your brother/ex-husband. It would be an easy decision to arrange for a private jet to fly you and your family to your mansion in Italy, where you could live as normal while waiting to see what happens at home. You know if things go back to normal you can just slip back into your American life but if they don't, you can still live life as pretty close to normal except that you'll probably campaign against what's happening back home. It just wouldn't make any sense to stay and wait in the US when you have so many options that make it really easy to go live a better life abroad. I can just see Jolie financing and starring in a British movie about life as a Handmaid, based on the testimony of escaped Aunts, Handmaids and Jezebels. And it would probably be as silly-sexy as the 90s version.
 

[AllyB]

On the topic of women losing their jobs all at once. I wonder how that worked in terms of hospitals. The vast, vast majority of nurses are women. The same is true of support staff from hospital managers to cleaners. So I wonder if certain professions were exempted from firing all their female staff. Hospitals just couldn't have coped without working women. And while Marthas would do the menial work in Gileads hospitals there were a few years between the creation of Marthas and women being forbidden from working. Which makes me wonder if the Aunts are mainly women of a nursing background. They were allowed to keep working when no other women could and after the initial outrage died down came to mostly enjoy their privileged status among women. The Son's of Jacob could easily spin nursing as the type of work God wanted women to do and their recognition of that, even 'before' led to them being rewarded now. And as the SoJ's control became tighter and they started categorising women into assigned roles, compliant nurses would make very good Aunts.

[marinw]

47 minutes ago, AllyB said:

The vast, vast majority of nurses are women. The same is true of support staff from hospital managers to cleaners.

 

Great point. Modern nurses require a great deal of training, and more and more nurses are male. But since Gilead is so retrograde nursing may be regarded as “Women's Work” to justify keeping a few around. I suspect that in Gilead a lot of female doctors may now be nurses. The loss of medical expertise would suck for everyone.

Another point is that many fertility doctors are women. So maybe there is some sort of loophole that allows them to work on the fertility crisis. 

[bijoux]

They dealt away with doctors for the most part. Would they care about keeping nurses?

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, bijoux said:

They dealt away with doctors for the most part. Would they care about keeping nurses?

I can easily see a lot of people, not having access to any medical care so a lot less need for doctors and nurses. Especially if you aren't a commander; if you get cancer you don't need chemo or anything because your illness is God's will.

[AllyB]

Gilead is in a constant state of war so nurses are fairly essential. 

And back in the days of women first losing their jobs, I think having the hospitals shut down because of it would have sent people over the edge. Putting women out of work is one thing, having thousands of people die as a result would be another.

[Umbelina]

Well, they executed most of the doctors, so I'd assume nurses were treated just as all the other women were.   Able to have kids?  Handmaid.  Not able to?  Camps, death, or Martha's.  RN's have college degrees, so "intelligentsia" and more than likely sent to the camps, or as we now know, to Jezebels if they fit some fetish fantasies.

I think hospitals are a thing of the past in Gilead.  Get sick?  Go die.  God's will.  Maybe some faith healing.

I doubt they give a damn about their foot soldiers/fodder.

As for the famous and rich women?  Same thing if they hadn't already taken their private planes out of there.  However private planes could have been commandeered I suppose.  As for their money?  If it was in US banks?  Gone to the nearest male relative like all other women's money.  I suppose it would depend on the male relative whether or not the woman had any bargaining power with them, in that, offshore accounts might factor as bribery for some women.

Edited July 3, 2017 by Umbelina

[Kareny]

Quote

 forcing millions from their jobs and families

While it wasn't millions, this definitely happened to people in January in the US during the travel ban. People with jobs, homes, and families in the country were being barred from them. I knew people who were affected, and it was terrifying for the few days that the ban was in effect, when we didn't know how long it would last. No one was being removed, sure, but it wouldn't be that big a step from what was actually happening. If it had been successful and hadn't met with the resistance that it did, who knows what would have happened next? It was definitely a big fear for a lot of people who were affected by the situation. 

And yet so many people have been dismissive of this reality, or denied it, or hand waved it away.

So watching this series definitely hit close to home. Sometimes we need fiction to hold a mirror to our reality and make us really understand it. Telling a story like this is a little like just tossing the frog into the boiling water - we see where we could be going, and are a little more aware of the warning signs. 

I'm really looking forward to seeing where they go with season two and more of this story. Already the expanded world is fascinating to me - clearly they're going somewhere with this, and it's great that Hulu has figured out how to fund it and make it happen. 

[chocolatine]

3 hours ago, Kareny said:

While it wasn't millions, this definitely happened to people in January in the US during the travel ban. People with jobs, homes, and families in the country were being barred from them. I knew people who were affected, and it was terrifying for the few days that the ban was in effect, when we didn't know how long it would last. No one was being removed, sure, but it wouldn't be that big a step from what was actually happening. If it had been successful and hadn't met with the resistance that it did, who knows what would have happened next? It was definitely a big fear for a lot of people who were affected by the situation. 

And yet so many people have been dismissive of this reality, or denied it, or hand waved it away.

To be fair, those of us who are in the US on green cards or visas know that we could be removed at any given time for any reason. This has been the case for many years, long before the current administration, and it's written on all the immigration paperwork.

There's a huge difference between restricting entry into the country for non-citizens and attacking the country's own citizens.

Edited July 11, 2017 by chocolatine

[LeGrandElephant]

The song at the beginning of the episode, Simple Gifts  - "tis a gift to be simple, tis a gift to be free..." 

I remember learning that song in elementary school, in public school in California in the late 80s / early 90s. Now I'm trying to think why we were learning that song... part of history class? A unit on folk music? Anyone else remember learning it?

Was the song supposed to be evoking the puritan roots of this country, or unironically talking about it being a gift to be free? 

[secnarf]

31 minutes ago, LeGrandElephant said:

The song at the beginning of the episode, Simple Gifts  - "tis a gift to be simple, tis a gift to be free..." 

I remember learning that song in elementary school, in public school in California in the late 80s / early 90s. Now I'm trying to think why we were learning that song... part of history class? A unit on folk music? Anyone else remember learning it?

Was the song supposed to be evoking the puritan roots of this country, or unironically talking about it being a gift to be free? 

We played the song in band in high school - I actually didn't even know it had lyrics!

Edited July 14, 2017 by secnarf

[kingshearte]

@LeGrandElephant @secnarf It's originally a Shaker song. I first learned it in church, way back when when I used to go, but it's not a particularly churchy song, so I can see it being deemed suitable for use in schools. 

As for its intended purpose in this context, I don't know. The Gileadeans would not be into the Shaker lifestyle, since it was pretty gender-equal, but it does sort of evoke that Puritan sort of era. I feel like maybe the idea of simplicity as freedom would appeal to the Gileadeans, but their version of it is rather distorted, so there's also that juxtaposition. So yeah. I don't know, but there are a variety of ways it could have been intended. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_Gifts

[LeGrandElephant]

12 hours ago, secnarf said:

We played the song in band in high school - I actually didn't even know it had lyrics!

I think there are a couple sets of lyrics that go with the same tune. Isn't Lord Of The Dance set to the same music?

 

I have no memory of why we learned Simple Gifts in school, but I still know all the lyrics. 

Edited July 14, 2017 by LeGrandElephant

[Umbelina]

I think they use it in school because it's a very simple song, and allows a lot of harmonizing, so it's a good way to teach that, or reading music, and to play on instruments.   It also allows everyone to participate, from bass voices to high sopranos.

Two other songs I remember that were taught/sung for the same reasons. 

and of course

 

I really think they were chosen because everyone could participate, sing a part, and learn to harmonize.  Everyone in bands could play as well.

[Cherry Bomb]

This episode was one of the most emotional episodes of all.  When Serena takes Offred on that ride and doesn't tell her where they are going until the time where she gets out of the vehicle and approaches the home and brings out Offred's daughter. Offred is of course locked in the back of the car screaming to be let out while calmly Serena talks to Offred's daughter and returns to the front seat of the car. Finally Offred goes off as she should on Serena with no affect at all seemingly on Serena. I can't imagine the rage going through Offred. I am surprised she didn't bust through the glass and strangle Serena. I would have gone completely nuts.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Cherry Bomb

[Banshee]

On 06/27/2017 at 7:54 PM, Fex said:

I would never in a million years use Kraft Dinner as a general term for mac and cheese, unless it was Kraft brand boxed mac and cheese. Must be specific to where you are! Or, the lack of that is specific to where I am, lol!

Nutmeg, were you taught in school that America is all one continent, from Canada down to Argentina? I've met people who learned that before. We consider this to be two continents: North America and South America, but it is definitely taught as all one in some schools. That may be the source of your confusion! We Canadians aren't part of America because that's not the name of our continent! It's just a nickname for the USA. We are part of North America, and would be perfectly happy to be referred to as North American.

I thought maybe the Handmaid's would stone Aunt Lydia, or the soldiers. But not participating in this backwards society's gross violence at all is a pretty good choice, too.

Now I know what the Canadian characters Terrance and Phillip are talking about when they say "Kraft Dinner. " Apparently someone in Canada calls it that!

If it helps anyone,  I think the story takes place in what used to be Maine.  Close enough to Canada.

Edited August 27, 2017 by Banshee
Spelling

[Eyes High]

On 6/29/2017 at 8:57 AM, Trillian said:

At the risk of taking this even more off topic, it is a Canadianism to refer to things by their brand names.  There are a few of them on this list: http://www.americansguide.ca/isms.html, including Kraft Dinner.  when I make macaroni and cheese, I refer to it as "homemade Kraft Dinner"  I also make "homemade Beefaroni".  And when something spills on the rug, I Hoover it.

Yes! Although I had no idea that using "Hoover" as a verb was a Canadian thing. 

I always meant the Kraft Dinner brand when I referred to Kraft Dinner. "Real" mac and cheese was always called mac and cheese. I grew up eating KD; I'll still eat it, radioactive orange powder cheese product and all.

 

On 7/1/2017 at 0:17 PM, marinw said:

Yes. Aunt Lydia almost seems like a cartoon villian, only Ann Dowd holds it back just enough to be terrifying.

Ann Dowd is amazing. So glad she got recognized by the Emmys.

[Laurie4H]

I don’t get how Offred could smile with her “game on” face when Serena knows where he daughter is.  Wouldn’t she worry that Serena would hurt her?

I think Elisabeth Moss is a good actress but there are to many shots of her just staring with her mouth opened.  

[Eri]

It's really hammy but I so wanted a "Mommy Dearest" moment at the end.

Serena: Why couldn't you give me the RESPECT that I'm entitled to!?

June: Because I am not one of your FAAANNSS! (Oh and your book sucked)

[John Potts]

I was a little disappointed that June didn't say "Let [she] who is perfect throw the first stone!" too, in her act of defiance. While I'm sure the Fathers of Gilead have edited that out of their official Bible, June would probably know the quote.

On ‎14‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 9:12 PM, nodorothyparker said:

I did enjoy the small comeuppance Commander Fred got in realizing that the rest of his cohorts weren't going to be so willing to blithely dismiss Putnam being guilty of the same things he's done with his whole "boys will boys, hey we're all human" attitude and that this may be the one and only instance where the wife's word actually does count for something.

I did too, though I was amazed it happened. I would assume hypocrisy would run all the way to the top ("If he strayed, it must have been some strumpet using her womanly wiles to lead him from the straight and narrow") and get at most some tap on the wrist, like a public confession ("For a man of his station, the humiliation is punishment enough!"). That they actually went through with mutilating him was a surprise - since this is presumably based on the Sermon on the Mount ("If thy right hand causes you to sin, cut it off...") you'd think they'd go for castration as a punishment. Admittedly, that would (or might) be removing a fertile male from the gene pool, which might be why Gilead would stop short of that. Did like the measure of realisation it brought Fred though, when he realised (just after he'd lorded his power over Serena Joy, too) that she DID have a measure of power over him.

Not that I felt any sympathy for Serena Joy, though. I had no idea where they were going when she took June off on their drive and was actually wondering if this was some sort of reward for getting pregnant (and keeping quiet about how she probably got pregnant). From what we see, Serena Joy does seem to genuinely want to bring up "her" child and I don't think it's just for the enhanced status it would probably bring. So to then use June's first daughter as an act of psychological cruelty was even more effective at showing her as a tin pot dictator lording her authority over those who have less. Serves her right if she wrote the law that banned herself from playing scrabble (and everything else).

On ‎14‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 7:19 PM, Stiggs said:

I don't care if Moira took a hovercraft to Canada - I was just happy to see her make it.

On ‎14‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 8:43 PM, Eyes High said:

Ann Dowd makes us believe that Lydia thinks that she's doing all this out of love and concern for the girls. She makes us believe that Lydia truly believes that she's acting in the girls' best interests, even when she's beating them, humiliating them, or heading up their executions. 

She also has that classic abuser line of "Why are you making me hurt you like this!" when she demanded an apology from June after hitting her. Thing is, you feel she really does believe what she's doing is right (which makes it even scarier). I can't commend Ann Dowd's acting high enough there.

On ‎15‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 3:16 AM, EC Amber said:

When June was laying there in a sea of other women's words... it was the first time I was genuinely angry at her. She can play it fast and lose with what few choices she has about her life. But her unravelling them all, lying there absorbing them she was essentially silencing them.

Yes! I was going, "They've given you those so you can get the word out, not (just) to make YOU feel better!" OK, I'm sure when other women wrote them, they knew that it was a long shot that anybody would actually hear their words, but they risked fearful punishment to do so, so at least TRY to pass them along.

On ‎14‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 7:19 PM, Stiggs said:

I don't care if Moira took a hovercraft to Canada - I was just happy to see her make it.

Me too! Having only the vaguest idea where any of the Canadian Provinces are, it didn't bother me. I did think it surprising that the refugee centre wasn't predominantly staffed with women, though they did at least throw out that line about having been swamped with newcommers that day. Moira's being stunned at having choices back in her life was truly affecting.

[chocolatine]

43 minutes ago, John Potts said:

I was a little disappointed that June didn't say "Let [she] who is perfect throw the first stone!" too, in her act of defiance. While I'm sure the Fathers of Gilead have edited that out of their official Bible, June would probably know the quote.

The last time June quoted the Bible at Aunt Lydia - "blessed be the meek" - she got the shit beaten out of her with a cattle prod. I'm sure she didn't want that to happen again even though she felt emboldened to defy Aunt Lydia.

[John Potts]

17 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

The last time June quoted the Bible at Aunt Lydia - "blessed be the meek" - she got the shit beaten out of her with a cattle prod.

Be hung for a sheep as for a lamb. Punishment was already inevitable: at least et the satisfaction of pointing out the regime's hypocrisy (though I admit I'm not in that situation, so maybe I'd feel I didn't want to make my situation worse).

[DrSparkles]

On ‎7‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 5:58 AM, AllyB said:

Anyone with the funds to get out would have. Obviously very early on all women were forbidden to work and had their bank accounts frozen. But mega-wealthy people tend to diversify and have money and assets all over the world. So if you were Angelina Jolie and suddenly forbidden from working and had your access to your American money handed over to your brother/ex-husband. It would be an easy decision to arrange for a private jet to fly you and your family to your mansion in Italy, where you could live as normal while waiting to see what happens at home. You know if things go back to normal you can just slip back into your American life but if they don't, you can still live life as pretty close to normal except that you'll probably campaign against what's happening back home. It just wouldn't make any sense to stay and wait in the US when you have so many options that make it really easy to go live a better life abroad. I can just see Jolie financing and starring in a British movie about life as a Handmaid, based on the testimony of escaped Aunts, Handmaids and Jezebels. And it would probably be as silly-sexy as the 90s version.
 

I guess you haven't seen "First They Killed My Father"?

Edited June 4, 2018 by DrSparkles

[Birnam Wood]

I dream of a spin-off featuring Moira and Rita solving mysteries and having adventures. Emily can be their driver.

[Roseanna]

On ‎24‎.‎1‎.‎2018 at 5:36 PM, John Potts said:

I would assume hypocrisy would run all the way to the top ("If he strayed, it must have been some strumpet using her womanly wiles to lead him from the straight and narrow") and get at most some tap on the wrist, like a public confession ("For a man of his station, the humiliation is punishment enough!"). 

Maybe they would have been merciful if the matter hadn't become public. And because the wife demanded the harshest punishment, they had no choice.