Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Soup333]

3 minutes ago, Stallion12 said:

I don't know, I just heard there were at least two, and one is sands getting the throne instead of bran. It's bad either way, but at least sands is more built up.

I was speaking of Sansa being on whatever council has been rumored but if they put her on the throne...😬 

[bijoux]

7 minutes ago, Stallion12 said:

I don't know, I just heard there were at least two, and one is sands getting the throne instead of bran. It's bad either way, but at least sands is more built up.

Is it? The Sands' motivation has primarly been getting revenge for Oberyn and maybe Elia and her kids, and sticking it to Doran who they saw as weak and inefficient. I didn't see getting the throne as their goal. 

[Stallion12]

10 minutes ago, Soup333 said:

I was speaking of Sansa being on whatever council has been rumored but if they put her on the throne...😬 

It's bad i agree, but bran being on it would piss more off.

8 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Is it? The Sands' motivation has primarly been getting revenge for Oberyn and maybe Elia and her kids, and sticking it to Doran who they saw as weak and inefficient. I didn't see getting the throne as their goal. 

Haha phone auto corrected Sansa  to Sands. That would be a huge wtf moment if the sand snakes oldest sibling took the throne.

[Francie]

1 hour ago, Soup333 said:

Since GoT was the only HBO show I watched, I already ended my sub. I can’t have been the only one. I’d argue that the reaction to this season is already having an impact on their bottom line and that’s why we have the damage control PR leak. 

This is only anecdotal, I know, but I ended my subscription as well.  I'm not one of those ripping my shirt or pulling my hair out demanding a different ending, so I'm not doing it to make a statement. 

My subscription will expire in the middle of next week.  If this season had been great, I would have kept it going for at least another couple months, until the season or series DVDs came out, so that I could re-watch the episodes. I have the other seasons on DVD, so I would only get the series if the bells -- sorry, don't mean to trigger any one --and whistles  were shiny and loud enough. But, this season has been disappointing, and the scenes I enjoyed so short and too far between, that I don't anticipate having any urge to re-watch. 

I have no interest in watching a 2-hour special next week that'll never touch on the backlash or writing failures, and in fact, it'll probably be an hour and a half of showing special effects and half an hour of people promoting the writing putting D&D on a pedestal. 

John Oliver mentioned on his weekly show, and this wasn't in response to the backlash but rather a comment on GoT ending in general, that HBO was nervous as hell about HBO's viewership dropping. He was more prescient than he knew. 

[Soup333]

2 minutes ago, Stallion12 said:

It's bad i agree, but bran being on it would piss more off.

Yeah, I’m not sure about that. 

[milizard]

You know, thinking about a re-do, I think perhaps a few re-edits might improve things for me.  There were a number of weird things that bothered me in recent episodes.  Jon yelling at the ice dragon was stupid and out of place.  Perhaps some quick edits between his scene and danger closing in on Bran would help  Maybe they did this somewhat, but they needed more in order to make the audience feel the frustration along with Jon, so that we were yelling at that dragon together.

There was also nothing that showed why Dany snapped at that particular moment (or if it happened earlier, it should have been more clear in retrospect).  I don't know if they had anything more to show this that ended up on the cutting room floor, but if they did, they should try to add it.

There wasn't much that explained why Tyrion made the choices he did, either.  Why was he so invested in Cercei and her baby?  Maybe showing him remember some old scenes here would help sell that.

Just a few more scenes could have sold the ending (so far) better, but Bran really needed to play more of a part in things, if he really ends up the ultimate ruler.  It was weird how he was supposed to be important, but barely did/said anything at all.  Even just having characters ask him questions, and despite his refusing to answer, getting a glimpse into some of his visions (nonsensical as they may be) would help the audience accept his importance). 

[Soup333]

Looks like those entitled bots will get their million in the next few hours. 

[Stallion12]

11 minutes ago, Soup333 said:

Yeah, I’m not sure about that. 

I'm not saying people won't be pissed. I just don't see the backlash as big as it will be with bran. I'll hate it either way. Based off Isaac saying he likes the ending, that confirms to me it's him since no other actor has said positive things .

[Stallion12]

12 minutes ago, milizard said:

You know, thinking about a re-do, I think perhaps a few re-edits might improve things for me.  There were a number of weird things that bothered me in recent episodes.  Jon yelling at the ice dragon was stupid and out of place.  Perhaps some quick edits between his scene and danger closing in on Bran would help  Maybe they did this somewhat, but they needed more in order to make the audience feel the frustration along with Jon, so that we were yelling at that dragon together.

There was also nothing that showed why Dany snapped at that particular moment (or if it happened earlier, it should have been more clear in retrospect).  I don't know if they had anything more to show this that ended up on the cutting room floor, but if they did, they should try to add it.

There wasn't much that explained why Tyrion made the choices he did, either.  Why was he so invested in Cercei and her baby?  Maybe showing him remember some old scenes here would help sell that.

Just a few more scenes could have sold the ending (so far) better, but Bran really needed to play more of a part in things, if he really ends up the ultimate ruler.  It was weird how he was supposed to be important, but barely did/said anything at all.  Even just having characters ask him questions, and despite his refusing to answer, getting a glimpse into some of his visions (nonsensical as they may be) would help the audience accept his importance). 

You point out the biggest gripe, bran doesn't do anything to be king. He's barely doing anything in the show. If tgey wanted this ending, tgey should have built it up.

[BitterApple]

If D&D had written Bran differently, I think the ending could've been triumphant. A kid who was cruelly disabled winning out in the end? The audience would've been all for it, but they never developed Bran properly.

Fans were behind Dany and Jon because they saw their struggles, the betrayals, the heartbreak, the ups, the downs and everything in between. With Bran, he became unrelatable once he turned into the 3ER. Remember the way he callously blew off Meera after she spent years dragging him around? Did we ever see him mourn for Hodor? Or Rickon? I understand D&D envisioned the 3ER as the equivalent of a computer, but viewers don't root for things, they root for people. They missed the boat on that one.

[Soup333]

For me there is no fix. No sequel, prequel or PR campaign can undo what has already happened. It’s done. 

I never watched a single episode of Castle, Lost, HIMYM or Dexter but even I was aware of the backlash with those endings. I don’t think any of those shows had near the fanbase of GoT. Yes, mileage varies and some are still throughly enjoying this season. But there is so much general criticism and/or outright derision about this season that no matter what happens in the finale, some won’t be pleased - or even mollified. And for many this will be the “lasting flavor” of D&D and of the Thrones. 

[gorgy]

The bittersweet ending is we're all bitter and D&D are getting that sweet Stars Wars cash

[catrice2]

Whatever happens it is not a good end for Dany.  You can't come back from murder on that scale.  I hope the spoiler about finding Jaimie's hand doesn't happen.  I mean, I resisted this show for so long because of the dragon's, magic, etc. but everyone assured me the writing was amazing.  Between the stupid battle strategies and other things I am going to have to take everyone's word that the early seasons were great. Randomly finding the hand would just solidify for me that this season was phoned in with no thought or regard to clever planning or attention to detail. 

I am also in the minority that does not find Kit Harrington attractive, or a good actor. To be fair to him, however, there were only a few people that I watched that had good acting. I am sure the vets were great, but the show was cast with so many relative newcomers that they had to grow into their roles.  Sophie Turner is one of the worst.  Would she have the Xmen without this show?  Probably not....the high profile of this show will help a few careers, and others will fade into obscurity.  I do appreciate that for the most part they seem to have had people who were not traditionally beautiful...more realistic to have people who had faces with character.  

Maybe it will be like Dallas and it will be a dream or since you have magic, etc. in this show someone will rewind time or something

Who knows? So far the spoiler that I read a few pages ago upsets me because it sounds boring..not because I am concerned about the throne or the legacy of a character. 

I just hope they do not spend a lot of time on people like Sam ...I am only glad I have not been watching for 8 years or I probably would be mad....

[Spartan Girl]

My two cents about the fandom petition:

While it's fine for fandom so to express their displeasure, I do agree that it gets pretty toxic. I wouldn't take my anger out on the actors and while I'm certainly angry at D&D, I wouldn't go out of my way to harass them. I just move on with my life and read fanfiction.

And this might be an unpopular opinion, but I liked Star Wars The Last Jedi and none of those so-called characterizations even compare to the ACTUAL ones in GOT. It's believable for the older SW characters not to be the same people they were 40 years ago. GOT has no such excuse, especially when it comes to Jaime regressing back to Cersei's bitch or Dany murdering actual innocent people.

Just my opinion.

[Uncle JUICE]

6 minutes ago, Soup333 said:

For me there is no fix. No sequel, prequel or PR campaign can undo what has already happened. It’s done. 

I never watched a single episode of Castle, Lost, HIMYM or Dexter but even I was aware of the backlash with those endings. I don’t think any of those shows had near the fanbase of GoT. Yes, mileage varies and some are still throughly enjoying this season. But there is so much general criticism and/or outright derision about this season that no matter what happens in the finale, some won’t be pleased - or even mollified. And for many this will be the “lasting flavor” of D&D and of the Thrones. 

I hate that I have tried to find a way out of the woods for thisnshownand I just cant do it. I cannot.fogure put a s9ngle character ending thatbsoung both sensible and possible that does justice to these characters. It's pretty sad. Through season six this show was on the mount Rushmore of shows. Seasonn7 got by on good will, but spent a lot of capital doing so. This season has completely erased that memory of a great show , has compromised rewatched, and relegated thisnto basically the Europa cup when incpuld have been champions league. 

[MrsR]

2 hours ago, Francie said:

why did the WW put people into elaborate shapes?, etc. — were just mcguffins. 

This is a pet peeve of mine and one I chase across the internet, the wrong usage/understanding of the term MacGuffin.

It does not mean red herring (a misdirection).

It is the thing that all the characters pursue or seek. It's the Ark of the Covenant, it's the Maltese Falcon. It's Private Ryan.

It's the Iron Throne.

[catrice2]

44 minutes ago, Stallion12 said:

You point out the biggest gripe, bran doesn't do anything to be king. He's barely doing anything in the show. If tgey wanted this ending, tgey should have built it up.

Bran is the real Night King or he was working with him in some way...they will end on the "shocking" note that the story is not over,or that Killing the Night King created something else...besides, if there is a Night King,why not a Queen?  We could always have a story about his wife being on a quest for revenge... yawn

[ShellsandCheese]

2 hours ago, Stallion12 said:

Drogon isn't a slave, but I meant if you have this huge battle, pronoun forces vs pro Danny forces, bran wargs into Drogon to save John, and John takes out Danny who thinks she had him, it would work better then him losing to her and killing her. 

Having Drogon single handedly destroy the Iron Fleet, the ballistas, the gates, and most of King’s Landing - pretty much means you cannot end the show on another major battle. There’s no way what’s left of the Northern forces could compete against that. LOL. Another of example of the writers writing themselves into a corner because they wanted a big spectacle. This is why a lot of the things done this season, season seven, and even some parts of season six make no sense anymore. One minute Dany forgets about the Iron Fleet and the next minute.....

One minute a dragon can be killed by three successive perfect scorpion shots and the next minute one dragon can singlehandedly wipe out every last scorpion without breaking a sweat. 

Simple story changes could have allowed for most of these things to happen in a way that makes sense and seemed organic - but again, they wanted shock and awe. 

[Francie]

11 minutes ago, MrsR said:

This is a pet peeve of mine and one I chase across the internet, the wrong usage/understanding of the term MacGuffin.

It does not mean red herring (a misdirection).

It is the thing that all the characters pursue or seek. It's the Ark of the Covenant, it's the Maltese Falcon. It's Private Ryan.

It's the Iron Throne.

It was *my* personal MacGuffin. 😉

Fair enough that they weren't a true MacGuffin. But they weren't red herring either.  More like a dead-end teaser that went nowhere. 

[stagmania]

49 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

With Bran, he became unrelatable once he turned into the 3ER. Remember the way he callously blew off Meera after she spent years dragging him around? Did we ever see him mourn for Hodor? Or Rickon? I understand D&D envisioned the 3ER as the equivalent of a computer, but viewers don't root for things, they root for people. They missed the boat on that one.

Yeah this decision to characterize him this way only becomes more baffling if they knew he was going to end up King all along. Why not retain most of who he was so that people could still connect to the character? Instead they made him a meme. 

Returning to the earlier discussion about how the ending might be perceived, assuming the spoilers are accurate: this is a good piece with a couple scholars discussing why they found the turn Dany's story took so frustrating, and the opportunity lost to follow a more interesting narrative. This quote at the end in particular stood out to me:

Quote

“I’m sure they’re going to have some kind of grand, final fight between Daenerys and her allies, and unfortunately it’s going to be Daenerys and the last people of color now fighting against the cis-white dudes.”

Even the people paying close attention and analyzing the show expect Dany to go down in a final battle - they do not expect Jon to murder her. There's a reason this was described as the third big WTF moment and I think audience backlash will only grow stronger.

[call me ishmael]

16 minutes ago, MrsR said:

This is a pet peeve of mine and one I chase across the internet, the wrong usage/understanding of the term MacGuffin.

It does not mean red herring (a misdirection).

It is the thing that all the characters pursue or seek. It's the Ark of the Covenant, it's the Maltese Falcon. It's Private Ryan.

It's the Iron Throne.

I don’t think either the Iron Throne or The Ark of the Covenant can be a macguffin because they do have significance in themselves.  The Macguffin IS an object of desire that drives the narrative as you say.  But it is empty in itself.  Hence the Maltese falcon.

[milizard]

19 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

Bran is the real Night King or he was working with him in some way...they will end on the "shocking" note that the story is not over,or that Killing the Night King created something else...besides, if there is a Night King,why not a Queen?  We could always have a story about his wife being on a quest for revenge... yawn

I was thinking that after Drogon flies off with Dany's body, he takes her up north where he hatches her up as the new Night Queen.  Jon's headed up there for retirement, but also happens to be there to confront her again.

[chrisvee]

1 hour ago, BitterApple said:

If D&D had written Bran differently, I think the ending could've been triumphant. A kid who was cruelly disabled winning out in the end? The audience would've been all for it, but they never developed Bran properly.

Fans were behind Dany and Jon because they saw their struggles, the betrayals, the heartbreak, the ups, the downs and everything in between. With Bran, he became unrelatable once he turned into the 3ER. Remember the way he callously blew off Meera after she spent years dragging him around? Did we ever see him mourn for Hodor? Or Rickon? I understand D&D envisioned the 3ER as the equivalent of a computer, but viewers don't root for things, they root for people. They missed the boat on that one.

This is so true. The 3ER comes off like the thing that killed Bran, some Other that has gobbled up human consciousness and claims to be on the side of humanity but is essentially detached from actual living people.

The character is off-putting to me and the actor’s performance is as well. Thank goodness JRR Tolkien didn’t take this route with Gandalf.

[MrsR]

8 minutes ago, call me ishmael said:

I don’t think either the Iron Throne or The Ark of the Covenant can be a macguffin because they do have significance in themselves.  The Macguffin IS an object of desire that drives the narrative as you say.  But it is empty in itself.  Hence the Maltese falcon.

Nope, that's just being pedantic. Spielberg has interviewed/lectured on MacGuffins and The Ark is his MacGuffin. R2D2 is a MacGuffin and is never becomes empty.

It's the desire that's important not the sometimes eventual worthlessness that defines the MacGuffin.

Your definition is too narrow.

Edited May 18, 2019 by MrsR

[Soup333]

14 minutes ago, milizard said:

I was thinking that after Drogon flies off with Dany's body, he takes her up north where he hatches her up as the new Night Queen.  Jon's headed up there for retirement, but also happens to be there to confront her again.

If that happens my reaction will be - Oh wow. Another shocking twist. Gotta love having my expectations subverted at every turn. 🙄

[galaxygirl76]

The thing my mind keeps getting back to is that the White Walkers were being written from the very beginning, both in book and show, as this big threat for humanity. This threat that was present in all the books and all seasons of the show, got disposed off in one episode that took place over one night. I remember the 'OMG the wall came down' and 'OMG he has a dragon now' reactions because it meant shit was going to go down and then we got this. I would have been so much happier if our speculations of the NK winning at Winterfell and moving south towards King's Landing had come true. That would have been worthy of the buildup of the supposed threat they were. Now I feel like meh, whatever about the whole thing.

[Raachel2008]

16 hours ago, Advance35 said:

t's funny because based on Emilia Clarkes comments at a recent comics convention with the Missandei actress, she wouldn't do anything else Game of Thrones related unless D&D were involved

And how smart is to say that? She knows that there is no way D&D will ever do more Game of Thrones, they are simply fed up with this universe, so in saying that she has the perfect excuse. It is fucking brilliant.

[Snowball II]

All I can think of when I hear about the petition:

[catrice2]

The reality is that for most of these actors and actresses this was a big break as well as a steady paycheck.  They are not going to bite the hand that fed them because they know that other people watch that sort of thing to see if they want to cast you for future projects. 

Regardless of the writing, etc. it was an incredible experience for most of them where they literally grew up, made friends and got better at their craft or in some cases resurrected a career.  Of course they are going to praise the process if not the final outcome. 

Again, I never wanted a happy ending, I just feel as if it was not cohesive and it was incredibly boring. I have watched some of the clips from season 5 or 6? and then I watched all of last year and this year.  From the 5 and 6 clips I was not bored, some of 7 and all of 8 except for a few scenes in Episode 3 I have been mostly bored.  Even when Dany gave the order to execute Varys it was said like she was tired and could care less. That's how this season has felt...just throwing a lot of fan service together like Jaimie and Brienne and some shocking scenes. 

[call me ishmael]

1 hour ago, MrsR said:

Nope, that's just being pedantic. Spielberg has interviewed/lectured on MacGuffins and The Ark is his MacGuffin. R2D2 is a MacGuffin and is never becomes empty.

It's the desire that's important not the sometimes eventual worthlessness that defines the MacGuffin.

Your definition is too narrow.

Nope.  That is the whole point of a macguffin.  It is what separates a macguffin from any normal central point of desire.  Otherwise every central object of desire would be a macguffin.  By your definition the infinity stones are a macguffin, any object that people are trying to steal in a theft caper is a macguffin etc.  

I’ll go with Hitchcock over Speilberg on this one.

Edited May 18, 2019 by call me ishmael
Edited to clarify

[Stallion12]

1 hour ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Having Drogon single handedly destroy the Iron Fleet, the ballistas, the gates, and most of King’s Landing - pretty much means you cannot end the show on another major battle. There’s no way what’s left of the Northern forces could compete against that. LOL. Another of example of the writers writing themselves into a corner because they wanted a big spectacle. This is why a lot of the things done this season, season seven, and even some parts of season six make no sense anymore. One minute Dany forgets about the Iron Fleet and the next minute.....

One minute a dragon can be killed by three successive perfect scorpion shots and the next minute one dragon can singlehandedly wipe out every last scorpion without breaking a sweat. 

Simple story changes could have allowed for most of these things to happen in a way that makes sense and seemed organic - but again, they wanted shock and awe. 

Right, but if they built it right, the final battle could have been John vs Danny for the throne instead of the deal battle we got.

[Umbelina]

5 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

D&D dont care, they're just rolling around in their piles of money. Instead, people could just boycott their future Star Wars franchise. At least folks could protest smarter that way. This is just dumb. A redo will never happen.

Out of the frying pan into the fire?  SW fans are completely furious that Disney has thrown away canon and "ruined" an iconic series.  They aren't hysterical, and the arguments I ended up listening to yesterday (at first by accident) were well thought out and made wonderful points.

5 hours ago, Bianca Castafiore said:

I find this petition thing childish and a sign of entitlement. But whatever if you see it as a way to releash your frustration it's ok by me, you do you. Unless you actually believe that it can work. In that case it's also stupid.

But projecting your frustration or your feelings to the actors it's a big no-no for me. Sure, some of them may not like the ending or the way their characters finished their journeys. But all off them have the right to defend their work or you know, actually... love it. They spent years on this show, some of them actuall grew up in it and they view their collegues and the people working on the set as family. To imply that they say what they say only because they are afraid for their future careers is frankly disrespectful. And I do hope, if the spoilers come true that people don't harass Isaac or Kit because they are incapable to separate the actor from the performance.

The actors can only do what the writers write for them to do.  Blaming them is just beyond my comprehension.

5 hours ago, chrisvee said:

There is enough criticism of the writing amongst casuals, professionals, and online fans to catapult this to the worst series finale ever. That’s going to hurt D&D and the prequels. 

Since there was so much time and money spent on special effects and cinematography (hey we have a battle that looks like Helm’s Deep on the small screen and we firebomb a while city!) while the writing fell apart, its going to seem like a super cynical ploy to win Emmys and ratings while delivering a subpar product to loyal fans of both the show and the books.

King Bran? Who is the audience for that? Tyrion as hand after all his mistakes that contributed to Dany’s downfall? Sidelined then exiled murderer Jon?  Jaime back with Cersei after discarding Brienne? Crazy Dany?

I guess the Sansa and Arya fan base gets the sweet? The rest of the fan base gets the bitter? 

If people read nothing else about this ending, I seriously hope they will read this:  https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/

This was never a traditional Hollywood tale of villains and heroes and antiheroes.  In the beginning, when they had source material, D&D managed it all pretty well.  Without that though?  They changed the story from a great tale about society, about war, about evolution, about the vast complexities that live inside every person, about the world, and society, and the devastating choices humans can make into a typical Hollywood story.

It just was never that.  EVER. 

So, it's understandable that the people watching actually thought there would be some benevolent "winner" at the end, or even an evil "winner" at the end.  Because D&D took complicated and nuanced and turned it into that kind of story.

The "winners" in this, if winners there are?  Are the people living in Westeros, those people D&D failed to make us care about since they lost the source material.

In addition, this massive rush job and special effects extravaganza with WOO! Battles!  further denigrated the story from a complicated tale of human nature, human failings, human triumphs to an action movie.

They couldn't even get the "action movie!" part right though, because in their mad rush to finish this series? They had to make smart characters stupid (forgot about Euron's ships) and "Hey!  Let's all stand outside the massive fortress built for this shit and let the WW kill us!" and the unforgivable Tyrion and Varys stupid pills they've been munching for two seasons.  I mean seriously, WHAT?

The 3ER "wins" this throne, but all they have given the actor to do is roll his eyes back in his head and stare into space.  We still know almost nothing about him.  He was off seeing the present during those white eye scenes, why didn't they let US see what Bran was seeing, for example?

Frustrating as hell.

4 hours ago, Stallion12 said:

A redo itself won't happen, D@d would have to allow it. Still Disney sees this and it could hurt their future, and HBO doesn't want this reaction to their top show. Doesn't change the anger of fans and the petition is a sign of that anger. 

Of course not.

I do wish D&D had handed this show off to people who were not burned out though, and who actually understood the story GRRM has been telling.

3 hours ago, milizard said:

You know, thinking about a re-do, I think perhaps a few re-edits might improve things for me.  There were a number of weird things that bothered me in recent episodes.  Jon yelling at the ice dragon was stupid and out of place.  Perhaps some quick edits between his scene and danger closing in on Bran would help  Maybe they did this somewhat, but they needed more in order to make the audience feel the frustration along with Jon, so that we were yelling at that dragon together.

There was also nothing that showed why Dany snapped at that particular moment (or if it happened earlier, it should have been more clear in retrospect).  I don't know if they had anything more to show this that ended up on the cutting room floor, but if they did, they should try to add it.

There wasn't much that explained why Tyrion made the choices he did, either.  Why was he so invested in Cercei and her baby?  Maybe showing him remember some old scenes here would help sell that.

Just a few more scenes could have sold the ending (so far) better, but Bran really needed to play more of a part in things, if he really ends up the ultimate ruler.  It was weird how he was supposed to be important, but barely did/said anything at all.  Even just having characters ask him questions, and despite his refusing to answer, getting a glimpse into some of his visions (nonsensical as they may be) would help the audience accept his importance). 

It's been a hatchet job.

Even if we get past that they lost the plot (see the scientific American article above, it nails this) and turned it into an action movie, traditional Hollywood tropes with a bait and switch unearned ending?

They did fail on that as well.  NONE of this made sense.  Winter lasting ONE night was simply bizarre.  The beauty of that, the devastated people of Westeros, the final banding together to overcome something they could all agree on, in spite of everything else?  The recovery from that?  The human, the living, realizing the utter devastation and pointlessness of the idiot "Game of Thrones" and banishing that kind of shit? 

Perhaps by electing Bran, someone who sees the past, present, and future, and who has no personal ambition or glory needs, and only wants human life to continue? 

Would make some kind of sense, would be bittersweet.

They never gave us a chance to "like" this ending though, because it's GRRM's ending of a very different story than the one they decided to tell for the past two seasons.

It's not about "rooting for" a particular character or preferring one "winner" to another.  It never was.

They didn't manage to get that across, and shame on them for that.

3 hours ago, Stallion12 said:

You point out the biggest gripe, bran doesn't do anything to be king. He's barely doing anything in the show. If tgey wanted this ending, tgey should have built it up.

Again, it's not supposed to be about winning a throne, but I agree, D&D made it that.  I agree they didn't earn it. 

Dany and Jon's "love story?"  WHERE was that?  I heard about it, I never saw it.  Unforgivable even in the story they decided to tell that they didn't bother showing us that or selling it, if this is supposed to be a super sad tragic Hollywood love story ending when he kills her.

They made a story of people to "root for" and didn't bother to let us get to know Bran or the 3ER at all.

So they failed both ways, failed to tell GRRM's story/vision, AND failed to satisfactorily deliver their fall back Hollywood hero/villain shit.

They succeeded in amazing special effects and boffo (if completely nonsensical and idiotic) battle scenes.  That's what they cared about, that's where the money and time went, and they LOOKED great.

2 hours ago, chrisvee said:

This is so true. The 3ER comes off like the thing that killed Bran, some Other that has gobbled up human consciousness and claims to be on the side of humanity but is essentially detached from actual living people.

The character is off-putting to me and the actor’s performance is as well. Thank goodness JRR Tolkien didn’t take this route with Gandalf.

GRRM when he, IF he writes it?  Will make this a wonderful story and end, I can actually see it, piece it together, and it does make sense to me. 

The show?  Didn't even come close to making any kind of sense this season.  Not for their story, and not for GRRM's.

1 hour ago, galaxygirl76 said:

The thing my mind keeps getting back to is that the White Walkers were being written from the very beginning, both in book and show, as this big threat for humanity. This threat that was present in all the books and all seasons of the show, got disposed off in one episode that took place over one night. I remember the 'OMG the wall came down' and 'OMG he has a dragon now' reactions because it meant shit was going to go down and then we got this. I would have been so much happier if our speculations of the NK winning at Winterfell and moving south towards King's Landing had come true. That would have been worthy of the buildup of the supposed threat they were. Now I feel like meh, whatever about the whole thing.

Exactly.

They were going to devastate the already devastated war torn country.  It would be a catalyst for people to stop their insane wars for power.  It was a big damn deal.

Again though, they didn't want to tell the complicated story in the end.  The story of war and it's effects on people who are just trying to live their lives.  The
WW could be metaphors for climate change, could be all kinds of things threatening human survival.  This was a BIG story, the blindness of fighting over idiotic political power plays while human life itself is threatened.

D&D made it a Dany action flick by the end, mostly because she was one of the few war lords left standing.

1 hour ago, catrice2 said:

The reality is that for most of these actors and actresses this was a big break as well as a steady paycheck.  They are not going to bite the hand that fed them because they know that other people watch that sort of thing to see if they want to cast you for future projects. 

Regardless of the writing, etc. it was an incredible experience for most of them where they literally grew up, made friends and got better at their craft or in some cases resurrected a career.  Of course they are going to praise the process if not the final outcome. 

Again, I never wanted a happy ending, I just feel as if it was not cohesive and it was incredibly boring. I have watched some of the clips from season 5 or 6? and then I watched all of last year and this year.  From the 5 and 6 clips I was not bored, some of 7 and all of 8 except for a few scenes in Episode 3 I have been mostly bored.  Even when Dany gave the order to execute Varys it was said like she was tired and could care less. That's how this season has felt...just throwing a lot of fan service together like Jaimie and Brienne and some shocking scenes. 

It was seriously bad, for all the reasons you give, and more.

Edited May 18, 2019 by Umbelina
typo and know their is a there instead of their up there but can't find it now.

[MrsR]

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, call me ishmael said:

18 minutes ago, call me ishmael said:

 By your definition the infinity stones are a macguffin, any object that people are trying to steal in a theft caper is a macguffin etc.  

Dude, The Infinity Stones are MacGuffins. They are wonderful collective MacGuffins.

"Said Kevin Feige, "We started to realize that a lot of these films required MacGuffins like the Orb in Guardians of the Galaxy, the scepter in the first Avengers film. And the notion that all of them could be a Stone started to come about right around the time Joss wrote that little tag in Avengers "

And yes those heist movies have MacGuffins. Read up on it. There are tons articles on the subject.

Sigh, my quest continues!

[Stallion12]

35 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Out of the frying pan into the fire?  SW fans are completely furious that Disney has thrown away canon and "ruined" an iconic series.  They aren't hysterical, and the arguments I ended up listening to yesterday (at first by accident) were well thought out and made wonderful points.

The actors can only do what the writers write for them to do.  Blaming them is just beyond my comprehension.

If people read nothing else about this ending, I seriously hope they will read this:  https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/

This was never a traditional Hollywood tale of villains and heroes and antiheroes.  In the beginning, when they had source material, D&D managed it all pretty well.  Without that though?  They changed the story from a great tale about society, about war, about evolution, about the vast complexities that live inside every person, about the world, and society, and the devastating choices humans can make into a typical Hollywood story.

It just was never that.  EVER. 

So, it's understandable that the people watching actually thought there would be some benevolent "winner" at the end, or even an evil "winner" at the end.  Because D&D took complicated and nuanced and turned it into that kind of story.

The "winners" in this, if winners there are?  Are the people living in Westeros, those people D&D failed to make us care about since they lost the source material.

In addition, this massive rush job and special effects extravaganza with WOO! Battles!  further denigrated the story from a complicated tale of human nature, human failings, human triumphs to an action movie.

They couldn't even get the "action movie!" part right though, because in their mad rush to finish this series? They had to make smart characters stupid (forgot about Euron's ships) and "Hey!  Let's all stand outside the massive fortress built for this shit and let the WW kill us!" and the unforgivable Tyrion and Varys stupid pills they've been munching for two seasons.  I mean seriously, WHAT?

The 3ER "wins" this throne, but all they have given the actor to do is roll his eyes back in his head and stare into space.  We still know almost nothing about him.  He was off seeing the present during those white eye scenes, why didn't they let US see what Bran was seeing, for example?

Frustrating as hell.

Of course not.

I do wish D&D had handed this show off to people who were not burned out though, and who actually understood the story GRRM has been telling.

It's been a hatchet job.

Even if we get past that they lost the plot (see the scientific American article above, it nails this) and turned it into an action movie, traditional Hollywood tropes with a bait and switch unearned ending?

They did fail on that as well.  NONE of this made sense.  Winter lasting ONE night was simply bizarre.  The beauty of that, the devastated people of Westeros, the final banding together to overcome something they could all agree on, in spite of everything else?  The recovery from that?  The human, the living, realizing the utter devastation and pointlessness of the idiot "Game of Thrones" and banishing that kind of shit? 

Perhaps by electing Bran, someone who sees the past, present, and future, and who has no personal ambition or glory needs, and only wants human life to continue? 

Would make some kind of sense, would be bittersweet.

They never gave us a chance to "like" this ending though, because it's GRRM's ending of a very different story than the one they decided to tell for the past two seasons.

It's not about "rooting for" a particular character or preferring one "winner" to another.  It never was.

They didn't manage to get that across, and shame on them for that.

Again, it's not supposed to be about winning a throne, but I agree, D&D made it that.  I agree they didn't earn it. 

Dany and Jon's "love story?"  WHERE was that?  I heard about it, I never saw it.  Unforgivable even in the story they decided to tell that they didn't bother showing us that or selling it, if this is supposed to be a super sad tragic Hollywood love story ending when he kills her.

They made a story of people to "root for" and didn't bother to let us get to know Bran or the 3ER at all.

So they failed both ways, failed to tell GRRM's story/vision, AND failed to satisfactorily deliver there fall back Hollywood hero/villain shit.

They succeeded in amazing special effects and boffo (if completely nonsensical and idiotic) battle scenes.  That's what they cared about, that's where the money and time went, and they LOOKED great.

GRRM when he, IF he writes it?  Will make this a wonderful story and end, I can actually see it, piece it together, and it does make sense to me. 

The show?  Didn't even come close to making any kind of sense this season.  Not for their story, and not for GRRM's.

Exactly.

They were going to devastate the already devastated war torn country.  It would be a catalyst for people to stop their insane wars for power.  It was a big damn deal.

Again though, they didn't want to tell the complicated story in the end.  The story of war and it's effects on people who are just trying to live their lives.  The
WW could be metaphors for climate change, could be all kinds of things threatening human survival.  This was a BIG story, the blindness of fighting over idiotic political power plays while human life itself is threatened.

D&D made it a Dany action flick by the end, mostly because she was one of the few war lords left standing.

It was seriously bad, for all the reasons you give, and more.

The big thing is bran comes out of nowhere being king. They could have had him do stuff, then the people in the council decide on him to have an all seeing king. Instead he does nothing all show and gets the throne. Your right they made it an action film, they built up characters one way then switched it.

[Dame sans merci]

7 minutes ago, Stallion12 said:

The big thing is bran comes out of nowhere being king. They could have had him do stuff, then the people in the council decide on him to have an all seeing king. Instead he does nothing all show and gets the throne. Your right they made it an action film, they built up characters one way then switched it.

I definitely think this is the big WTF moment of the finale: I met some unspoiled family members earlier, and asked them for their predictions. Everybody expects Dany to get killed, but nobody mentioned Bran as a possible king (even when I asked them for some left field guesses). 

[catrice2]

I read a lovely article with Nathalie Emmanuel that caused me to go back and watch the love scene between Missandei and Grey Worm.  I have thought all this season that Jacob Anderson has done some wonderful "wordless' acting with his eyes, facial expressions, body language, etc. but considering the fact that I do not consider either of them to be great performers (sorry!) that scene was one of the best that I've watched on this show when they were not speaking.  He has also done a great job with that this season, especially in the Long Night. 

The dialogue beforehand is touching , but Anderson perfectly displays Grey worm's fear and hesitancy about approaching her and the "I'm just going to go for it," moment.  He then shifts into being resigned, and dejected when he thinks she is pulling away and rejecting him.  Then you get the confusion and hope when he realizes that she is actually pulling away to disrobe and the wonderment of seeing her naked then the anxiety about what comes next and allowing himself to be guided. 

Emmanuel does a great job of communicating reassurance and taking the lead as she disrobes him. When she tries to fully undress him and he stops her the fear of rejection is all over his face...the jaw clenching anxiety of being rejected or disgusting her.  Their almost constant eye contact totally communicates the trust  and when he nods o.k. you see that he is willing to risk whatever comes next, but is holding his breath.  Then you get  then her look of full acceptance and the small smile that indicates it's ok, and he smiles too....but is still afraid to touch her..almost like he is not believing this is real.  She gives him small encouraging kisses and then guides him to the bed and you can see him grow more confident in just a few seconds.  Then you see her releasing and allowing him to take the lead and showing her pleasure on her face...almost like she doesn't believe it is real. 

It was beautifully done, shot well, and well acted.  I am surprised that either of them were able to pull that off . I know that I've seen a lot of people griping about the time spent on the two minor characters...but if most of the sex has been as brutal as I've read I think it was important to show a tender intimate moment (especially between a slave girl who likely had no choice in these matters, and a minority man that also was not supposed to have love, just follow orders)  and it really makes me mad that with the back story I've read on Brienne and Jaimie that it was not something similar instead of almost comedic, after she was humiliated for being a virgin, and then he laughed about it with his brother afterward.   That they could show some softness in a show that is largely brutal was amazing. 

This is why I am struggling...that writers and directors capable of a scene like that one pulled out some of this trash this season.  If Greyworm could get a great love scene, why couldn't a virgin who had been mocked and shamed as a women her whole life? 

I have mostly gone back and watched the Grey Worm scenes because I knew him as Raleigh Ritchie and I can honestly say he has improved over the years..or at least been able to sell Grey worm's confidence and maturity being built, and evolving into a true leader.  Your heart broke for him when he had to sacrifice his men, but then with everything that happened I totally get why he went crazy in the last episode.  He has given up everything for people who care nothing about him, his people or his sacrifice and is tired of being used and controlled. 

Even still, I hate that he and Missandei's last scenes were reduced to "black rage," 

I find that as tomorrow approaches I am moving from being o.k. and /or mildly interested in the end to revisiting scenes due to interviews , stewing and getting annoyed about it, ha ha. 

Edited May 18, 2019 by catrice2
Edited to add a sentence

[Stallion12]

8 minutes ago, Dame sans merci said:

I definitely think this is the big WTF moment of the finale: I met some unspoiled family members earlier, and asked them for their predictions. Everybody expects Dany to get killed, but nobody mentioned Bran as a possible king (even when I asked them for some left field guesses). 

Maybe, but it's a terribly set up.one that will cause an uproar.

[Dame sans merci]

2 minutes ago, Stallion12 said:

Maybe, but it's a terribly set up.one that will cause an uproar.

Just to clarify that I was agreeing with you - none of them predicted it because there was actually no seeding or foreshadowing for it! I think people will be absolutely baffled.

[Oscirus]

People I listen to/ read aren't even mad at the actors, they mad at d and d. Now d and d have to please a pissed off star wars fan base, good luck with all that.

Problem is that George's ending wasn't the story they were telling, so why not change the ending if it didn't fit? I don't imagine George would've put up too much of a fuss.  Bran don't make sense as king cuz it wasn't built up, Dany being the mad queen makes no sense, cuz it wasn't built up despite having multiple opportunities to. Tyrion and Arya have made little to no movement since earlier seasons and while Sansa and Jon's endings make the most sense, the way they got there sucked. Maybe in execution the ending will come out a lot better then Im expecting, but I doubt it.

[ParadoxLost]

10 minutes ago, Stallion12 said:

The big thing is bran comes out of nowhere being king. They could have had him do stuff, then the people in the council decide on him to have an all seeing king. Instead he does nothing all show and gets the throne. Your right they made it an action film, they built up characters one way then switched it.

Everything I've read about the finale sounds deeply stupid.  I have no idea what I would have liked instead.  I can't even fathom that there is a way to end this show in one episode, based on where it is now, that will be satisfying.  Although I guess this being massive foilers might make another substandard ending more palatable.

I'm not sure how out of nowhere Bran sitting the Throne really is .  I think its just disappointing.  They basically have a scenario where the Dothraki and Unsullied are an occupying army without a ruler.  Tyrion can't rule outright because he betrayed Dany.  Jon can't because he is the Queen Slayer.  And that isn't because of Dany.  That's because of the Unsullied and the Dothraki and to get them to leave they need to install someone unobjectionable. 

And there is no close third candidate to rule.  So Tyrion likely puts forth a rousing speech about making the 3YR the King so they never forget and never repeat the mistakes of the past.  In the meantime the council and the Hand rules because the King is not of the present.    

And basically, its a variation of Robert Baratheon's reign.  The wheel isn't broken.  Its the BSG, we'll repeat this cycle forever mythology.  Maybe as another nod BSG they'll even have some stupid plot point that exists just so they can have GRMM or D&D do some stupid Alfred Hitchcock like cameo way into the future.

[lucindabelle]

ITA that they should not have gone with an ending GRRM has in mind but gone with one that made sense with what they’ve built.

this will please nobody.

[dreamcatcher]

4 hours ago, BitterApple said:

If D&D had written Bran differently, I think the ending could've been triumphant. A kid who was cruelly disabled winning out in the end? The audience would've been all for it, but they never developed Bran properly.

Exaxtly, any of the Starks on the throne would get fan approval, and especially the Stark kid who was almosted murdered by the last Queen-what a great f*ck you to the Lannisters and especially Cersei. But Bran is long gone.

3 hours ago, chrisvee said:

This is so true. The 3ER comes off like the thing that killed Bran, some Other that has gobbled up human consciousness and claims to be on the side of humanity but is essentially detached from actual living people.

The character is off-putting to me and the actor’s performance is as well. Thank goodness JRR Tolkien didn’t take this route with Gandalf.

Exactly! They went to great lengths to show that this isn’t Bran Stark anymore, so I’m not happy with King 3ER. 

[Soup333]

I’m interested to see cast interviews after it airs. I don’t expect anyone to out and out trash anything, even if they were displeased. But I do want to see how many sing the praises of the decisions made. 

[ParadoxLost]

3 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

ITA that they should not have gone with an ending GRRM has in mind but gone with one that made sense with what they’ve built.

this will please nobody.

This is my thing.  What is the one that makes sense with what they've built?  And how much of the last few seasons have to be ignored to make that work.

A lot of the problem here is that they were good at adapting books and suck at fleshing out outlines.  So there isn't anything that would be a really satisfying ending because all the foundations are shaky.

Maybe everyone would have been happier with a fan service ending but that wouldn't have been a "good" ending any more than this is shaping up to be.

[Stallion12]

57 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

People I listen to/ read aren't even mad at the actors, they mad at d and d. Now d and d have to please a pissed off star wars fan base, good luck with all that.

Problem is that George's ending wasn't the story they were telling, so why not change the ending if it didn't fit? I don't imagine George would've put up too much of a fuss.  Bran don't make sense as king cuz it wasn't built up, Dany being the mad queen makes no sense, cuz it wasn't built up despite having multiple opportunities to. Tyrion and Arya have made little to no movement since earlier seasons and while Sansa and Jon's endings make the most sense, the way they got there sucked. Maybe in execution the ending will come out a lot better then Im expecting, but I doubt it.

Their own ending would have worked,  they could have said tgey decided to let Martin tell his own ending. This would have not had so much switched around. Maybe have breiane and Jamie end up together but Jamie is killed, have Danny try to win the right way and cersi sets off the wildfire. Maybe Danny dies trying to stop it. You could still have twists, and not a happy ending, but it would make sense to their characters.

[call me ishmael]

2 hours ago, MrsR said:

Dude, The Infinity Stones are MacGuffins. They are wonderful collective MacGuffins.

"Said Kevin Feige, "We started to realize that a lot of these films required MacGuffins like the Orb in Guardians of the Galaxy, the scepter in the first Avengers film. And the notion that all of them could be a Stone started to come about right around the time Joss wrote that little tag in Avengers "

And yes those heist movies have MacGuffins. Read up on it. There are tons articles on the subject.

Sigh, my quest continues!

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree 🤔. I take my lead from Hitchcock and classic film theory.  If Kevin Friege wants to redefine it then i guess he can.  He certainly has enough money to say whatever he wants!

[Stallion12]

52 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

Everything I've read about the finale sounds deeply stupid.  I have no idea what I would have liked instead.  I can't even fathom that there is a way to end this show in one episode, based on where it is now, that will be satisfying.  Although I guess this being massive foilers might make another substandard ending more palatable.

I'm not sure how out of nowhere Bran sitting the Throne really is .  I think its just disappointing.  They basically have a scenario where the Dothraki and Unsullied are an occupying army without a ruler.  Tyrion can't rule outright because he betrayed Dany.  Jon can't because he is the Queen Slayer.  And that isn't because of Dany.  That's because of the Unsullied and the Dothraki and to get them to leave they need to install someone unobjectionable. 

And there is no close third candidate to rule.  So Tyrion likely puts forth a rousing speech about making the 3YR the King so they never forget and never repeat the mistakes of the past.  In the meantime the council and the Hand rules because the King is not of the present.    

And basically, its a variation of Robert Baratheon's reign.  The wheel isn't broken.  Its the BSG, we'll repeat this cycle forever mythology.  Maybe as another nod BSG they'll even have some stupid plot point that exists just so they can have GRMM or D&D do some stupid Alfred Hitchcock like cameo way into the future.

It's out of nowhere because the 3er hasn't really been devolped or done much.

If the book version is Bryden Rivers, the books have some backstory to him, so that one makes sense. But the show we barely got anything.

[WindyNights]

2 minutes ago, Stallion12 said:

It's out of nowhere because the 3er hasn't really been devolped or done much.

If the book version is Bryden Rivers, the books have some backstory to him, so that one makes sense. But the show we barely got anything.

36 minutes ago, dreamcatcher said:

Exaxtly, any of the Starks on the throne would get fan approval, and especially the Stark kid who was almosted murdered by the last Queen-what a great f*ck you to the Lannisters and especially Cersei. But Bran is long gone.

Exactly! They went to great lengths to show that this isn’t Bran Stark anymore, so I’m not happy with King 3ER. 

Bran didn’t get his body snatched.

It’s not Bran’s mentor using his body. It’s literally just Bran with the memories of the world overshadowing his own memories.

Isaac explained it but it’s in the show as well.

He’s not Bran in the same way that Lady Stoneheart isn’t Catelyn Stark. 

If you add or subtract memories, that person is no longer the same person.

[Stallion12]

1 minute ago, WindyNights said:

Bran didn’t get his body snatched.

It’s not Bran’s mentor using his body. It’s literally just Bran with the memories of the world overshadowing his own memories.

Isaac explained it but it’s in the show as well.

He’s not Bran in the same way that Lady Stoneheart isn’t Catelyn Stark. 

If you add or subtract memories, that person is no longer the same person.

I should have clarified, if Bryden Rivers was his mentor before giving the powers, it would make more sense and be more developed.  If they decoupled bran and the 3er, this wouldn't be an issue 

[MrsR]

21 minutes ago, call me ishmael said:

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree 🤔. I take my lead from Hitchcock and classic film theory.  If Kevin Friege wants to redefine it then i guess he can.  He certainly has enough money to say whatever he wants!

Oh.

Well now I see the issue and confusion here.. The concept/usage of the MacG. doesn't just apply to film.
 

The Holy Grail for instance.