Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[YaddaYadda]

4 minutes ago, Bali said:

What is the SanSan? I keep seeing it, but am not figuring it out. Thanks,

SanSan is the unfortunate ship name for Sandor/Sansa.

[ursula]

Just now, Lillith said:

In regard to Sansa's treatment from Ramsay, it was brutal but at least off screen and had some narrative reason. The rape plots I had issue with were the gratuitous Craster's Keep scenes and Jaime raping Cersei in the show when it was not that way in the book. And again served no narrative point. 

There was no narrative reason for Sansa's treatment because it never made sense. Littlefinger would not have handed her over to Lannister allies after he smuggled her out of King's Landing and away from the Lannisters and was keeping her hidden. (In the books, she literally takes on another identity in the Vale because keeping her existence a secret is that important). Sansa would never have agreed to marry the Boltons when she already had revealed herself to the Lords of the Vale and had their sympathy and protection. Boltons would not have kept Sansa against the wishes of King's Landing. 

Unless you're sincerely arguing that Sansa needed to be Raped and Tortured by the same people that killed her mother and brother to "mature"

[joliefaire]

12 minutes ago, Bali said:

What is the SanSan? I keep seeing it, but am not figuring it out. Thanks,

Sansa and Sandor.

[Bali]

23 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I think SANsa and SANdor Clegane maybe?

OK. Thank you.

[blixie]

Quote

Or how it makes sense to anyone that on an open sea, a fleet of ships can sneak attack on anyone flying overhead with a dragon.

It is literally the most insulting bullshit not just to Dany et al, but to anyone with functioning brain cell. 

 

Quote

Jaime raping Cersei in the show when it was not that way in the book. 

Jamie raping Cersei is bs because it wasn't in the book, but Sansa being raped by Ramsay was FINE  though it wasn't in the book.  Sure.  I mean I'm hear to say both narrative choices were hot offensive garbage and neither made any "narrative sense". 

[Minneapple]

49 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Really? There was just one article after the other about how gratuitous and vile the whole thing was. The message boards were lit and GRRM posted his Alayne sample chapter from WoW during the week that followed that episode.

I know that you love Sansa, but no, there were a lot of people and publications up in arms over that episode. But apparently, D&D felt the need to double-down in her the SanSan scene.

I mean I do remember people being upset, and I think D&D mostly backed off the rape plots and gratuitous violence against women after that, but I don't recall people being as angry as they are now. People are acting like D&D murdered their dog and that the whole series is trash after one episode.

I did rage over the SanSan scene. It's so frustrating that you think they had learned about how to treat violence against women...and then you figure out they haven't learned a damn thing. Did they really make Sansa say she was thankful for her abusers? I mean REALLY? Just like their treatment of people of color. As upsetting as it was that Missandei was beheaded, it's actually more upsetting that she was completely ignored in the first three episodes of the season. These are clues that you know this show is written by two old white guys.

[Lillith]

9 minutes ago, blixie said:

 

Jamie raping Cersei is bs because it wasn't in the book, but Sansa being raped by Ramsay was FINE  though it wasn't in the book.  Sure.  I mean I'm hear to say both narrative choices were hot offensive garbage and neither made any "narrative sense". 

No I didn't say it was FINE, I just said it had at least some narrative sense to me. And again was at least off screen unlike the others I'd mentioned. Nuance is possible. Would the show have been fine without it? Yes. But did having it in the show destroy Sansa's character arc? No to me. It wasn't necessary but its portrayal did not offend me like the others did. YMMV. 

[nikma]

Vocal online reaction to this season makes no sense to me. It's feels completely divorced from reality. Rage and bitternes only.

I feel that this season is in every way better than S7 and that all problems here existed for seasons now, so if you watched the show until this point why lose your mind 2 episodes before the end? I mean Euron's fleet, 20 good man, Yara vs Ramsay,... all those things are part of the show for years, but now it's a problem?

[Night Person]

There is a lot of nitpicking in regard to writing and character development.  For me, it is in large part because the series was so excellent for the first few years.  And even the last seasons have been beautifully produced in terms of production values and cinematography and have had lovely moments.  I loved E3 this year.  The first 20 minutes of E4 was stunning.

it just saddens me if the resolution doesn’t live up logically to the expectations of the earlier seasons.  But I am withholding judgement.  We haven’t seen it play out yet. And even if I don’t feel the ending is well executed, I still believe the series as a whole was one of the best productions In television history.

Edited May 9, 2019 by Night Person

[Minneapple]

Just now, Lillith said:

No I didn't say it was FINE, I just said it had at least some narrative sense to me. And again was at least off screen unlike the others I'd mentioned. Nuance is possible. Would the show have been fine without it? Yes. But did having it in the show destroy Sansa's character arc? No to me. It wasn't necessary but its portrayal did not offend me like the others did. YMMV. 

It actually did destroy Sansa's character arc. Sansa had finally come out from under Cersei's thumb and had a measure of power over Littlefinger because she knew he murdered Lysa and had covered up for him. She finally had some kind of agency. But then suddenly Littlefinger manipulated her into marrying Ramsey and it was eight giant steps back for Sansa. Plus the reasoning for the marriage made less than zero sense. It was a mess of a storyline.

Just now, nikma said:

I feel that this season is in every way better than S7 and that all problems here existed for seasons now, so if you watched the show until this point why lose your mind 2 episodes before the end? I mean Euron's fleet, 20 good man, Yara vs Ramsay,... all those things are part of the show for years, but now it's a problem?

Euron's giant fleet also snuck up on Yara last season if people have forgotten. It's not anything new. The writers love Euron just as they loved Ramsey. Euron is basically Pirate Ramsey.

[Oscirus]

7 minutes ago, nikma said:

I feel that this season is in every way better than S7 and that all problems here existed for seasons now, so if you watched the show until this point why lose your mind 2 episodes before the end? I mean Euron's fleet, 20 good man, Yara vs Ramsay,... all those things are part of the show for years, but now it's a problem?

Difference being that Dany Drogon or Rhaegal should have seen that from up high.  Writers are now doing things for shock value and not for what makes sense in the story they're providing

[nikma]

3 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Euron's giant fleet also snuck up on Yara last season if people have forgotten. It's not anything new. The writers love Euron just as they loved Ramsey. Euron is basically Pirate Ramsey.

Euron's fleet is the same thing as "20 good man". It was used to push Dany's downfall just like Stannis'.

D&D have consistent narrative shortcus.

1 minute ago, Oscirus said:

Difference being that Dany Drogon or Rhaegal should have seen that from up high. 

They weren't high enough because Rhaegal was hurt. Meh. As I said, it is the same narrative shortcut D&D used since forever. 

[Lillith]

1 minute ago, Minneapple said:

It actually did destroy Sansa's character arc. Sansa had finally come out from under Cersei's thumb and had a measure of power over Littlefinger because she knew he murdered Lysa and had covered up for him. She finally had some kind of agency. But then suddenly Littlefinger manipulated her into marrying Ramsey and it was eight giant steps back for Sansa. Plus the reasoning for the marriage made less than zero sense. It was a mess of a storyline.

Euron's giant fleet also snuck up on Yara last season if people have forgotten. It's not anything new. The writers love Euron just as they loved Ramsey. Euron is basically Pirate Ramsey.

Again YMMV. Everyone is acting like I said it was awesome, when I did not. Simply that of the storylines that included rape it at least had some reasoning behind it.  I merely stated TO ME it did not ruin her arc. I understand it did for you and respect that. Since this did not happen at all in the books, nor am I that far in them I might feel differnetly. Or I might feel . different if GRRM was further along in the story and what he wrote made me feel differently.  Now I'm done defending my comments because it's clear all it will do is cause more pointless back and forth. 

I do agree about Euron, he's the current invincible Big Bad, until he's not. Probably next week.  The actor is clearly having fun in the role, but he's not a compelling character at all. 

[Minneapple]

1 minute ago, nikma said:

They weren't high enough because Rhaegal was hurt. 

And Yara didn't have a lookout on deck to see Euron's giant fleet of ships. It's absurd. But there's more bitching about it now.

[dirtypop90]

I agree with the folks who stated they wished Jon was just pretending not to want to be King.  It made me realize, as much as I've liked this show, it would be better if Jon had some ambition.  Imagine if Jon was running a long con... ShowJon wants nothing, which is why I never became a fan.  It sounds like BookJon is different.  It I recognize that he's the hero of this story.  I just wish he had more....umph lol  He needed to be a grey character.

[Oscirus]

5 hours ago, Constantinople said:

For a guy who allegedly cares about the people, he sure cares a lot about Cersei and the nobility in general. His concern about Dickon Tarly volunteering to die wasn't that he'd be dead, but that another great house would disappear.

Tyrion should have told Dany to torch the Red Keep at the start of Season 7. That would have saved the most lives and ended the war. But Tyrion was more concerned with capturing Casterly Rock, for all the good it did them.

Tyrion is hobbled by short term thinking, bad judgment and a conventional noble mindset. I'm not sure he's best suited for to rule

Tyrion's thinking long term. I doubt he gives a shit about Tarly it was how Dany would be viewed for killing off families in the way she did.

Casterly rock was a admittedly a weakness of tyrion.

Torching the red keep would've given dany the same problems she had in mereen.  Sure she'd have the throne sooner, but then another terrorist organization would've likely arisen.

Problem wasn't his plans it was that Dany didn't have a war time general to better implement them. She relied too heavily on Tyrion in that instance and since he's a scholar, he has no idea about the nuances of war strategy.

[Eyes High]

Tyrion promising Highgarden to Bronn reminded me that on Watchers on the Wall, they reported that Highgarden would appear in Season 8. At the time, I thought it was an epilogue scene with Sam, but I'm guessing it will be Bronn's after all in the end.

1 minute ago, dirtypop90 said:

I agree with the folks who stated they wished Jon was just pretending not to want to be King.  It made me realize, as much as I've liked this show, it would be better if Jon had some ambition.  Imagine if Jon was running a long con... ShowJon wants nothing, which is why I never became a fan.  It sounds like BookJon is different.  It I recognize that he's the hero of this story.  I just wish he had more....umph lol  He needed to be a grey character.

TV Jon is just a well-meaning galoot getting outshone, outfought and outfoxed by stronger characters at this point. He certainly isn't giving off endgame ruler vibes; he seems like just another pawn, not a player in his own right. The poor guy just wants to take a long vacation, judging from his wistful comment to Tormund that he wished he was going with him. In fact, Sam and Varys hyping Jon as the superior ruler is a lot easier to swallow now that it seems like he won't be in the end.

[Minneapple]

Just now, dirtypop90 said:

I agree with the folks who stated they wished Jon was just pretending not to want to be King.  It made me realize, as much as I've liked this show, it would be better if Jon had some ambition.  Imagine if Jon was running a long con... ShowJon wants nothing, which is why I never became a fan.  It sounds like BookJon is different.  It I recognize that he's the hero of this story.  I just wish he had more....umph lol  He needed to be a grey character.

You know, that would be awesome. Jon in the books was quite a politically savvy guy. In fact it would be awesome if the Starks were scheming like the Lannisters. Arya said "she isn't one of us" in the last episode just like Cersei said "anyone who isn't us is an enemy" to Joffrey in season 1. I would love it if the Starks were actively scheming together to take down Dany and Cersei and install Jon on the throne.

[GraceK]

1 minute ago, Minneapple said:

would love it if the Starks were actively scheming together to take down Dany and Cersei and install Jon on the throne.

I think they are. I just don’t think Jon is involved. I’m pretty sure Arya is on the way to kill Cersei, while Sansa is plotting to take down Dany.

[Oscirus]

15 minutes ago, nikma said:

Euron's fleet is the same thing as "20 good man". It was used to push Dany's downfall just like Stannis'.

D&D have consistent narrative shortcus.

They weren't high enough because Rhaegal was hurt. Meh. As I said, it is the same narrative shortcut D&D used since forever. 

People aren't letting them get away with the bull they used to get away with. This is the final season, it should be flawless.  No more letting people off the hook for laziness.

Also unless Tyrion's trial is true, that was the last time we see the Starks together and we don't even get so much as a goodbye between the four of them.  This show is missing it's heart

[dirtypop90]

9 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

You know, that would be awesome. Jon in the books was quite a politically savvy guy. In fact it would be awesome if the Starks were scheming like the Lannisters. Arya said "she isn't one of us" in the last episode just like Cersei said "anyone who isn't us is an enemy" to Joffrey in season 1. I would love it if the Starks were actively scheming together to take down Dany and Cersei and install Jon on the throne.

Sad part is I think Sansa and Arya would totally be up for it.  Jon is the only one holding them back. lol

On a show filled with interesting characters, it is odd that they've made the central character so dull and lifeless.

[Umbelina]

57 minutes ago, blixie said:

It is literally the most insulting bullshit not just to Dany et al, but to anyone with functioning brain cell. 

 

Jamie raping Cersei is bs because it wasn't in the book, but Sansa being raped by Ramsay was FINE  though it wasn't in the book.  Sure.  I mean I'm hear to say both narrative choices were hot offensive garbage and neither made any "narrative sense". 

I was furious about Jaime raping Cersei, because it absolutely didn't happen in the books, would never happen in the books, and especially because the showrunners seemed to be willing to do ANYTHING to give Lena Headly more shit to do, and to make Cersei more sympathetic. 

Cersei is not a sympathetic character, she's a monster, and yeah, she had a couple of tough breaks, losing her mom, but her father marrying her off for a political union was what happened to almost all young women of rank in this world, and they didn't turn into monsters. 

Jaime, I admit, I loved his redemption arc, which was wonderful in the books, and ruined in the Cersei worship by showrunners.

Now Sansa's rapes, torture?  I hated it, but I honestly don't know if the character will be put in that position by GRRM.  So I was torn, but it was distasteful.  My "torn" part was only about not knowing if GRRM had told them Sansa's journey would include this, and intersect with Theon's that way, and this was their way of doing it.

53 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

I mean I do remember people being upset, and I think D&D mostly backed off the rape plots and gratuitous violence against women after that, but I don't recall people being as angry as they are now. People are acting like D&D murdered their dog and that the whole series is trash after one episode.

I did rage over the SanSan scene. It's so frustrating that you think they had learned about how to treat violence against women...and then you figure out they haven't learned a damn thing. Did they really make Sansa say she was thankful for her abusers? I mean REALLY? Just like their treatment of people of color. As upsetting as it was that Missandei was beheaded, it's actually more upsetting that she was completely ignored in the first three episodes of the season. These are clues that you know this show is written by two old white guys.

The idea behind it, I actually like and agree with.  The WAY it was handled and the words they put in Sansa's mouth?  Horrifying.

What I mean is, I think the best healing can be when you realize you like who you are NOW, so accept that whatever horrible things happened to you got you to that place.  In other words, living in the now, rather than endlessly lamenting the past.

As written though?  It totally blew, and I see why people are upset about it.

26 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

I agree with the folks who stated they wished Jon was just pretending not to want to be King.  It made me realize, as much as I've liked this show, it would be better if Jon had some ambition.  Imagine if Jon was running a long con... ShowJon wants nothing, which is why I never became a fan.  It sounds like BookJon is different.  It I recognize that he's the hero of this story.  I just wish he had more....umph lol  He needed to be a grey character.

I like Jon as he is.  He has accomplished so much through the books, and even in the show.  His lack of desire to be proclaimed King, but his reluctance acceptance of that is part of why he has been such a good guy.  He's made mistakes, but he's shown care towards people, the wildlings for example.  Without him the WW would now be in charge of all of Westeros, he rallied people, he gave Arya the sword, he lived behind the wall to learn the truth, he listened to Samwell about dragon glass.

He's accepted power when thrust at him, but he's never sought it.  He's sacrificed a lot, including his own life.  I will never "hate" him.

Edited May 9, 2019 by Umbelina
typo

[nikma]

8 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

This is the final season, it should be flawless. 

How a season of the show that was never flawless can be flawless?

I think some people expected too much. And some people just want to see GoT fails.  But it won't. As I said, 5 years from now when someone binge-watches the show he will enjoy it. 

But now it's Jane Goldman's turn to face toxic fandom. 

[Oscirus]

2 minutes ago, nikma said:

How a season of the show that was never flawless can be flawless?

I think some people expected too much. And some people just want to see GoT fails.  But it won't. As I said, 5 years from now when someone binge-watches the show he will enjoy it. 

But now it's Jane Goldman's turn to face toxic fandom. 

Sorry, but nine years in we shouldn't be getting coffee cups or scenes that are way too dark or the same shortcuts that they were using  three years ago or the horrendous build up that we're getting this season.

5 years from now, your casuals who love it now, will prob still love it.  The hardcore fans let down on this season will likely love the first four seasons while ignoring the last four and everybody else will have varying degrees of meh on it.

[DarkRaichu]

5 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

5 years from now, your casuals who love it now, will prob still love it.  The hardcore fans let down on this season will likely love the first four seasons while ignoring the last four and everybody else will have varying degrees of meh on it.

I am getting all sorts of flashbacks of Burn Notice.  It looks like D&D is going for the meh and predictable ending like BN.  At least I hope they are capable enough not to go down the Dexter rout...

Lumberjack Jon will break the internet for sure.. 😄 😄 😄

Edited May 9, 2019 by DarkRaichu

[ursula]

14 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Now Sansa's rapes, torture?  I hated it, but I honestly don't know if the character will be put in that position by GRRM.  So I was torn, but it was distasteful.  My "torn" part was only about not knowing if GRRM had told them Sansa's journey would include this, and intersect with Theon's that way, and this was their way of doing it.

🤦‍♀️

What?

In the books, Ramsay Snow married Jeyne Poole and that's who Theon rescued and took to the North. In the books, Sansa Stark is in the Vale while all this is happening.

🤦‍♀️

[Meredith Quill]

8 hours ago, nikma said:

Well my guess is that it was decision influenced by financial reasons, because it's not like they didn't work much longer and harder on these 13 episodes. So argument that they are tired and just want to move on never made any sense to me.

They spent 16 months shooting these 13 episodes. And in the past they were able to do 10 episodes in 5 and half months. Does this seems like something people who just want to move on do?

But no point in this discussion because we will never know.  This narrative that D&D are idiots and hacks and they betrayed HBO, poor GRRM, actors, directors and everyone else is completely unfair. IMO.

And that's everything I have to say on this topic. 

If you read that interview I linked, you'll have seen that they give very personal reasons for wanting it over sooner rather than later. I doubt they'd make that stuff up just to toe HBO's party line.

They never produced 10 episodes in 5 and a half months; they said themselves that it took them an entire year from page to screen to produce 10 episodes which is why having longer seasons wasn't possible. 

The narrative that poor D&D are being blamed for stingy HBO's decision to cancel their biggest and most successful show ever is even more incomprehensible imo.

And that's my final comment on the matter.

[ursula]

2 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

I also don't think it would've went well if they made Lannisters or Targs of color. 

I wonder how sympathetic fandom would be to the Starks if they were black. 

[nikma]

1 minute ago, SilverStormm said:

They never produced 10 episodes in 5 and a half months; 

I said shooting, not producing. 

Just now, Oscirus said:

If you're willing to accept an inferior product, I envy that you're able to do so.

We have different understanding what inferior product is. 

[dirtypop90]

13 minutes ago, ursula said:

I wonder how sympathetic fandom would be to the Starks if they were black. 

I don't think it would've mattered, honestly. The starks are sympathetic because they haven't done anything in comparison to the other families on this show.  Also, in recent years, flawed, black characters have received great mainstream support, i.e. Cookie Lyon on Empire, Annalise Keating on How to get away with murder, and Olivia on scandal etc.

Now, if the starks were black, I'm not sure how many people would be watching.  If the starks were black, then all of the North would have to be black, no?  That would turn GOT into a "black" show in the eyes of many viewers I think, and less people would watch.

Edited May 9, 2019 by dirtypop90

[DarkRaichu]

3 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Lumberjack Jon  would be awesome 😄

There is still 75% chance Jon joins Tormund & Ghost up north and spends the rest of his days chopping woods 😄 😄 😄 

[Umbelina]

8 minutes ago, ursula said:

🤦‍♀️

What?

In the books, Ramsay Snow married Jeyne Poole and that's who Theon rescued and took to the North. In the books, Sansa Stark is in the Vale while all this is happening.

🤦‍♀️

I know that, but we don't know what happens to Sansa later, at all. 

If Sansa was going to have all that happen to her ala GRRM?  I could see the showrunners combining that story with Reek, rather than having a whole other Sansa is tortured story elsewhere, or later.  That's pretty common in adaptations, and would make sense to me.

If, on the other hand, GRRM never puts Sansa into that kind of situation, I'm completely on board with the outcry.

In the books, for example, Jenya might be discovered, killed, and Sansa captured.  If so, I can see showrunners not bothering with that part.

2 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

There is still 75% chance Jon joins Tormund & Ghost up north and spends the rest of his days chopping woods 😄 😄 😄 

Except he's already dead.

I think he must have one last thing to do (or more than one) and then his fate is just like Beric's.  Finish the job and then die for real.

[WindyNights]

2 hours ago, Bali said:

I've been thinking about the Bran spoiler. And trying to reconcile it with Bran's stoic, "I live mostly in the past now." Bran bores me. He has always bored me. He bored me in what books I've read. But I think his whole purpose in the future will be to act as the "Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it" compass.

And yes, I didn't finish the books. I tried, but decided that I didn't want to do that since I am of the belief that GRRM is never going to finish them.

Bran is GRRM’s alternate version of the underdog rising to to be king of the land. 

Jon and Dany are the traditional paths. 

Bran’s journey starts with him being unable to fulfill his dream because he’s been crippled. So he’s one of the most powerless people only to be blessed with powers that gives him control of others to then becoming King of Westeros. 

He couldn’t become a knight so he had to become something else.

It’s a pretty novel concept in fantasy. Most fantasy heroes are just warriors and even when they’re sorcerers, they’re never that disabled.

I could even see Bran ruling the land in his last chapter and ruing that he never got to become a knight.

[Chiny11]

Wow...what a season.  The final 2 episodes need to air already. 😐

As far as final seasons go, I think it's safe to say Breaking Bad isn't giving up its top position any time soon. 

[Eyes High]

I don't think for what it's worth that that's the last Stark goodbye. Sansa and Bran end up at the Dragonpit along with Arya, and whatever happens with Jon he's probably going to meet up with them. We did see what I think were some final goodbyes in 8x04--Sandor/Sansa, Jaime/Brienne, etc.--but that wasn't one of them.

Leaving aside the issue of Sansa informing Sandor that her abuse and rape made her a stronger person, a lot of the blowback seems to be fans angry that they were suckered into rooting for a character who turned out to be Tyrant Barbie and romances that turned out to have been doomed from the start: Jaime/Brienne, Gendry/Arya, and Jon/Dany. But really, when you look at it objectively, is it really so crazy that Dany would become increasingly ruthless the more losses she suffered? That Arya would reject a conventional life with Gendry? That Jaime no matter how much he loved Brienne would always choose Cersei? That Jon wouldn't be able to get over the incest? Because to me, those outcomes seemed like the devastating but logical consequences of who these characters are. It was just blind optimism that made us think things would be different or special for these characters.

And for all the universal contempt at the idea of an overly cheery Disney ending, it turns out that the prospect of being denied a Disney ending has fans going absolutely nuclear. So there seems to be a big difference between what fans think they want (dark GOT realness) and what they actually want (lots of romance and happiness). Fans are getting an emotional Red Wedding on steroids like they always claimed they wanted, and they can't handle it.

It also bugs me that the spoilerphile fandom was fine with Tyrion getting thrown under the bus as long as Jon and Dany got their happily ever after, but now that it's Dany and not Tyrion getting the villain edit, nobody can handle it.

Edited May 9, 2019 by Eyes High

[Minneapple]

7 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

They've cut a lot of important moments because they've run out of time. I'm a stark fan and I'll forever be annoyed I haven't seen a stark goodbye scene, not before the battle of the NK or this one with Cersei, and didn't even get to see Arya and Sansa's reaction to finding out Jon's parentage with stark music playing in the background.  A scene of Missandei and Dany talking about Dany's treatment in the North is far less important. IMO

See, I disagree. If you want Missandei's death to mean a great deal, well, it doesn't mean a great deal unless her character meant a great deal. And clearly if they couldn't even have one scene between her and Dany, then her character didn't mean a great deal. And so her death only means something in context with her relationships with Dany and Grey Worm. Which really sucks for her character. 

Anyway. We've been off-topic in the spoiler thread for awhile now, so I'm pretty much done with this line of discussion.

[Bianca Castafiore]

5 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

They've cut a lot of important moments because they've run out of time. I'm a stark fan and I'll forever be annoyed I haven't seen a stark goodbye scene, not before the battle of the NK or this one with Cersei, and didn't even get to see Arya and Sansa's reaction to finding out Jon's parentage with stark music playing in the background.  A scene of Missandei and Dany talking about Dany's treatment in the North is far less important. IMO

Jorah being an older Asian or Latino man would've still led to a lot of think pieces on men of color's lust of white women.  Do not want.

Yeah, IA agree about the Arya/ Sansa reaction scene. But all the goodbye scenes fill me with dread because they scream DOOM DOOM so in a way I'm ok with them not there. That's why it's odd that Jon had 2 goodbye scenes in the past episode...

[Oscirus]

14 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

1. I hear you.  Because I'm a POC and tv junkie so I know this is an issue.  But I honestly feel like Missandei has benefited from being a POC on this show.  I think she has only been around so long and given such a big important death because she's a POC.  She was also given a romance.  I believe she's like 12 in the books and I'm not sure what color her skin is.  I think they did right by Missandei.  Will have to see about Grey Worm.

I've seen people provide other examples of characters that could've been POC on this show, like Varys, but he gets less airtime and is likely to be executed for treasion; or Jorah, but really? an older black dude who is madly in love with the whitest young woman in the world and willing to do anything for her.  Don't think that would've gone over well.  I also don't think it would've went well if they made Lannisters or Targs of color.  I was once read this was being considered for the Targs, which I guess could've be cool; would've made the hero of the story mixed race as well.  But I could see them getting a lot of flack for making the Mad King and family known for incest black.  

Not to get into the whole race debate cuz it's not important now, but the original  owner of the brothel that Littlefinger owned on the show was an African woman in the books, there was more color in the book than there is on the show.   Just to show an example of the book having more color in it.

Missandei's been little more than a background character and her death is little more than a plot device. Other than giving her those last words, she's barely even been noticeable. While this doesn't bother me, I can see why others might not like her treatment on the show.

[Oscirus]

5 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I don't think for what it's worth that that's the last Stark goodbye. Sansa and Bran end up at the Dragonpit along with Arya, and whatever happens with Jon he's probably going to meet up with them. We did see what I think were some final goodbyes in 8x04--Sandor/Sansa, Jaime/Brienne, etc.--but that wasn't one of them.

Then my question is who's watching winterfell? 

[DarkRaichu]

9 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Sansa and Bran end up at the Dragonpit along with Arya, and whatever happens with Jon he's probably going to meet up with them.

Thanks to teleportation magic, Sansa and Bran meet up with Jon and Arya at KL just before Jaime arrives....  😄

[dirtypop90]

17 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Not to get into the whole race debate cuz it's not important now, but the original  owner of the brothel that Littlefinger owned on the show was an African woman in the books, there was more color in the book than there is on the show.   Just to show an example of the book having more color in it.

Missandei's been little more than a background character and her death is little more than a plot device. Other than giving her those last words, she's barely even been noticeable. While this doesn't bother me, I can see why others might not like her treatment on the show.

Well I kind of understand why they changed the color of the brothel owner...

I was only saying that they made Missandei more important than she is in the books.  Black female characters typically aren't made more important than they need to be for plot purposes.  She really hasn't been treated like the black female token, who is typically framed as undesirable and not given a love interest.  She was given a legit romance, as far as this show is concerned, and pointless romantic scenes that didn't move the plot in any way. 

All characters not a stark, lannister, or targ are background.  Now, I haven't read the books.  Just watching the show, it feels like it is about those three houses.

Edited May 9, 2019 by dirtypop90

[Bannon]

2 hours ago, Bianca Castafiore said:

Eh...I've been extremely annoyed by D&D for years now and for several reasons but I do think that the nitpticking in the past 2 weeks has gotten out of control tbh. I didn't need to watch their video to understand what they were trying to show during the war council scene and before her departure from Winterfell: Dany is impatiant, wants to attack Cersei asap and she ignores any suggestion and tosses all common sense aside. She is blinded by her desire so, yes it's obvious that she will make mistakes and ignore the possible danger.

If you are saying that someone impatient to kill her enemies won't fly high enough to see them, sorry, but I'll just stick to my opinion that this the laziest writing imaginable.

[Chiny11]

Should we be expecting the 3rd shocking moment in the next episode?  If so, what are your guesses about the moment?

[Solace247]

31 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Yeah, honestly I think they did right by Missandei -- until this season when she barely had anything to do at all. I just wish she had had a scene or two with Dany. I mean they've been implying that Dany is all alone and sad, boo hoo. Well, her BFF and her adviser Missandei is RIGHT THERE! Doesn't she count as someone Dany can talk to?

You’re right. Wouldn’t a few words from Missandei apart from the others better demonstrate both character’s feelings regarding being in the North? This just feels like another short-handed, ham-fisted way of demonstrating that Dany is alone. It’s over-the-top. Completely lacking in nuance.

This whole season has all it’s characters raising points with each other that seem way over-the-top. Apparently, I’m missing huge chunks of interactions and reactions because the lines spewing forth from everyone’s mouths are overt and off somehow. It’s exactly how I felt with the Sansa/Arya drama last year. Everyone is speaking in code or something. The Starks (including Jon) are coming off looking like complete dicks. Each one of them.

Ned would proud. /s

[Oscirus]

12 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

Well I kind of understand why they changed the color of the brothel owner...

I was only saying that they made Missandei more important than she is in the books.  Black female characters typically aren't made more important than they need to be for plot purposes.  She really hasn't been treated like the black female token, who is typically framed as undesirable and not given a love interest.  She was given a legit romance, as far as this show is concerned, and pointless romantic scenes that didn't move the plot in any way. 

All characters not a stark, lannister, or targ are background.

Let me put it like this Lyanna Mormont who didn't even have a quarter of the screen time as Missandei is more memorable than her. They could've given her more importance than they did. Other than season 6 and  whatever season she was found by Dany, she was barely noticeable if one wasn't looking for her. 

And character wise, how much do we really know about her?

Edited May 9, 2019 by Oscirus

[stagmania]

4 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Jon killing Dany and resigning himself to the Wall while the Three-Eyed Hamster sits on the Throne, basically renders their journeys meaningless.

One of the most frustrating aspects of this ending to me is that who Jon is matters not a bit. You could have this exact same plot if he was just Ned's legitimized bastard. Why make his identity the central mystery and biggest reveal of the story if it didn't matter?

2 hours ago, Minneapple said:

If you look to just two weeks ago everyone was raving about 8x02 and how it was one of the best episodes of the series. Now people are trashing all of season 8 as if it's the worst thing on television.

That tends to happen when you build to a huge, story-defining event for a decade and then don't stick the landing. And the spoilers make it sound like they're not going to stick many, if any, of the landings for these characters. Of course people are upset - in previous seasons, there was always the possibility that things could be fixed. But this is the end.

2 hours ago, ursula said:

There was no narrative reason for Sansa's treatment because it never made sense. Littlefinger would not have handed her over to Lannister allies after he smuggled her out of King's Landing and away from the Lannisters and was keeping her hidden. (In the books, she literally takes on another identity in the Vale because keeping her existence a secret is that important).

Sidebar: I was listening to one of the GoT podcasts (A Storm of Spoilers, I think) and they pointed out that the reason later seasons Sansa is such a favorite of the showrunners is that she's entirely their creation in a way the other characters aren't. They completely changed her trajectory from the books and made her much more central. I wouldn't necessarily expect her show ending to match her fate in the books.

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

TV Jon is just a well-meaning galoot getting outshone, outfought and outfoxed by stronger characters at this point. 

I really get bummed out when I think of what they've done to Jon. They took one of the core heroes of the story and made him a blank space who's basically just there to brood and be the butt of short jokes.

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

I think they are. I just don’t think Jon is involved. I’m pretty sure Arya is on the way to kill Cersei, while Sansa is plotting to take down Dany.

One theory is that we didn't see the Sansa/Arya reaction to Jon's parentage reveal because it's part of a scene they'll reveal later that will show us the sisters scheming together to put Jon on the throne. Which would explain why we also got no scene of Arya explaining she was leaving or saying goodbye to anyone. 

[Chiny11]

4 minutes ago, stagmania said:

One theory is that we didn't see the Sansa/Arya reaction to Jon's parentage reveal because it's part of a scene they'll reveal later that will show us the sisters scheming together to put Jon on the throne. Which would explain why we also got no scene of Arya explaining she was leaving or saying goodbye to anyone. 

 So basically just like the Season 7 Winterfell plot was written.   

[Stallion12]

1 hour ago, nikma said:

How a season of the show that was never flawless can be flawless?

I think some people expected too much. And some people just want to see GoT fails.  But it won't. As I said, 5 years from now when someone binge-watches the show he will enjoy it. 

But now it's Jane Goldman's turn to face toxic fandom. 

If the ending is that bad, it won't draw many new fans. The ending doesn't have to be great, but it can't kill the show either.

[nikma]

6 minutes ago, Stallion12 said:

If the ending is that bad, it won't draw many new fans. The ending doesn't have to be great, but it can't kill the show either.

The things these people are complaining about won't matter 5 years from now. When you watch the show all ot once you don't care about Euron's fleet or how high dragons can fly.

And even now  majority of people don't care about those things. 

People will watch GoT to be entertained. And they will be. From the first episode until the very last.

[Nashville]

23 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

Cersei is not mad. Cerse is evil, knows she is evil and likes being evil.

Earlier in the series I would have agreed; Cersei was an intelligent, ruthless and absolutely effective power behind the throne.  But now, though...?

ALL of Early Cersei’s actions were predicated upon a single goal; advancing the prospects of her family - particularly her children - at any cost - but now...

• All Cersei’s children are dead - and not just dead, but (with the exception of her very first child, an unnamed son who died of a fever as an infant) dead due to blowback both direct and indirect from Cersei’s actions.
• So far as family goes, the entire Lannister dynasty now consists of only three - Jamie, Cersei, and Tyrion; everybody else both up and down the family tree is dead.

...so what exists to motivate Cersei now?

Which leads me to my current theory - that Cersei’s pregnancy is not real, but is either:

1. A hysterical pregnancy, born of her need to replace some of what was lost.
2. Something else, the symptoms of which mimic pregnancy enough to deceive Cersei; maybe a tumor, or maybe Urine loaded Cersei up with a case of the megaclap.

In any case a “pregnancy” would afford Cersei the opportunity to exercise a type of power which has rarely failed her in the past - so she’s likely to latch onto even the suggestion, real or not.

7 hours ago, WindyNights said:

I’m just going to guess that Tyrion suffers from a severe erectile dysfunction which is he’s celibate now and he realizes he can’t have kids. 

The future of House Lannister will die with Jaime and Cersei. That’s my guess.

That, or given how Tyrion’s family has taken furious action to destroy any relationship he’s ever had - even the ones with whores (reference Shae) - Tyrion has decided to abstain for the foreseeable future.

6 hours ago, Indi said:

Instead of the Incest!Twins dying in each other's arms romantically, I would have preferred this scenario: Jaime runs to Cersei with yet more professions of eternal love. She looks at him with her trademark smirk of utter disdain, but lets him embrace her. Then she stabs him to death.

That's the ending that glutton for punishment deserves.

That’s precisely half the ending I’m wanting - the other half being:

• As Jamie expires, Cersei informs him his entire attempt to rescue her was based on a lie - because she was never pregnant.
• Tyrion is in the vicinity, and overhears.
• In th3 midst of Cersei’s triumphant cackling over Jamie’s dying form, Tyrion strikes down Cersei - I’m guessing for Tyrion to do so by the same crossbow Tyrion used to kill Tywin would be too much to ask, but I ain’t THAT particular.
• Cersei dies first, with Jamie shortly after - but not before Jamie and Tyrion get the chance to exchange whatever passes in Westeros for a “Thanks, bro.”