Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[DuckyinKy]

20 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Why are Dany and Jon on the hill overlooking the battle? Did they fly there to wait for the NK?

I am a little late but I think that may be Sansa with Dany, not Jon. Just going by her collar. I'm not an expert but just thought I would throw that out. 

[cambridgeguy]

19 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

I do love the terrified look on Jaime's face. 

I'd be terrified too if I was on the frontlines wielding just a sword with my offhand, no shield, and no helmet.  Jaime must not realize how strong his plot armor is.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Happy Harpy said:

Yes, as I said I don't think the mood in 8x04 will be light-hearted.

The character study episode was 8x02, I think. But 8x04 might be a breather, too, a more reflective one with 1) mourning the dead (argh) and 2) placing the characters on the last chessboard for the final run.

I thought so, too, but 8x04 has a "violence" warning, so it won't be all mourning, burning bodies, and elegiac handholding.

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If I look at S7 and S8 as halves of the same season, 7x07 and 8x01 would be the "filler" episodes in the middle.

Yeah, the fifth, sixth and seventh episodes of the 10-episode season have always been kind of flabby and draggy, even the better ones like 3x05 or 4x06. 

D&D said several years ago that they had the last season planned out, before the decision was made to split it. It's interesting to think what the final season would have been like had they not decided to split it. S7 had a lot of padding in the first few episodes (Arya's bit with the soldiers, e.g.), and I remember D&D saying they had to write in action sequences because there was too much talking. On the other hand, Jon and Dany's romance would have been even more rushed, and we wouldn't have gotten the lovely character interactions in 8x02, so there is that to consider. Also, everything would have been cheaper and not nearly as lavish: fewer battles, less CGI, etc.

Assuming 8x01-8x06 covers what would have been the back five episodes of the original Season 7, I guess with 8x03 we're at what would have been around 7x08 of the original final season. It really brings home just how close we are to the end. 

And on that note, we are 24 days out from the finale, a little over three weeks. Strap in!

[DuckyinKy]

4 hours ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

On Freefolk, someone translated all the recent tweets from Friki. While he can't spoil anything anymore,

I am new to Game of Thrones spoilers, so a[ologies for asking byt why can't he spoil anything anymore?

[Eyes High]

3 minutes ago, DuckyinKy said:

I am new to Game of Thrones spoilers, so a[ologies for asking byt why can't he spoil anything anymore?

HBO brought the hammer down and threatened to sue him to oblivion.

Kristofer Hivju on the upcoming battle from the Hollywood Reporter:

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Beforehand, we watch [pre-visualization] in a huge room. We watch a pretty good, animated version [of what we're going to shoot], with lines and everything. Everybody was like, "Is this even humanly possible to pull off?" We knew we had 56 night shoots in front of us. We were going into two or three months of night shoots. That's pretty intense, in terms of driving everybody crazy. (Laughs.) Miguel was the greatest commander in chief you could find. He literally had huge armies around him. He's trying to make this all fit together. Some days, we were 900 people at lunch. It was just crazy. I haven't seen the episode, so I really don't know. But I think it will be pretty intense. 

[BadAssRobinArryn]

1 hour ago, DuckyinKy said:

I am a little late but I think that may be Sansa with Dany, not Jon. Just going by her collar. I'm not an expert but just thought I would throw that out. 

It's Dany: https://ew.com/tv/2019/04/24/game-of-thrones-photos-season-8-episode-3/

[MadameKillerB]

do you think we'll get an episode about Harrenhal tournament and Robert's Rebellion in flashback? 

[Callista]

2 hours ago, DuckyinKy said:

I am a little late but I think that may be Sansa with Dany, not Jon. Just going by her collar. I'm not an expert but just thought I would throw that out. 

The article definitely says that it's Jon and Dany, not Sansa and Dany.

[WindyNights]

1 hour ago, MadameKillerB said:

do you think we'll get an episode about Harrenhal tournament and Robert's Rebellion in flashback? 

Nope

[Wouter]

17 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I’m fairly sure that the Sansa still is from the crypts, that the Varys/Tyrion still is from the same scene, and that the person Sansa is giving the stink eye in the still is Tyrion. She’s been pretty cold to him in S8, so if they’re trapped at close quarters, she probably won’t pass up an opportunity to go in on him.

Sansa defended Tyrion in her scene with Dany in 8x02, showing she is still on overall good terms with him.

9 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

 Not one single girl has thought she might like to be the King's/Warden's wife and climb the social ladder?  Not one single Lord has told one of his attractive daughters to try and get Jon into bed so said Lord can try and force a marriage?

In the books, there are certainly examples (lord Manderly with his daugters, and at least Alys Karstark flirted with Jon on her own initiative). In the show, Jon has barely been home and a lot of the time he was home, there is this rich, exotic, foreign girl around him all the time.

7 hours ago, Azi said:

Since the literally only thing that would make me feel this show was a waste of my time is Dany going mad and be a villain (anything else, be it her death or not being on the throne wouldn't do that), I take every reassurance I can get. 

Not a chance that Dany will be mad or a villain. It's refreshing that Dany and the Starks (and Tyrion, for that matter) don't see eye-to-eye on everything, but while Dany could be (to some extent) antagonistic from a Stark POV she isn't going to be a villain. This is one of the strenghts that makes ASOIAF (and by extension, GOT) different from other "fantasy"-style books or series.

[Eyes High]

35 minutes ago, Wouter said:

Sansa defended Tyrion in her scene with Dany in 8x02, showing she is still on overall good terms with him.

But was that really about her own feelings or just disagreeing with Dany to undermine her while still maintaining a facade of politeness? She had no trouble calling Tyrion an idiot to his face, acting rudely towards him during their short meeting (and keeping their conversation as short as possible), berating him in public, or calling for Jaime's death when Tyrion was sitting right there. She obviously doesn't care about Tyrion, but she does care about scoring points on Dany where she can. It's not so much "I truly believe Tyrion's a good man" as "You're such a bitch for saying mean things about Tyrion."

Compare her treatment of Tyrion with her treatment of Theon. The latter is what "good terms" looks like. She is not on good terms with Tyrion; the writers said that Tyrion would have gotten a different reception from Sansa had he not arrived at Winterfell as Dany's Hand. 

I'm not sure that S8 is going to do anything more with Sansa and Tyrion's dynamic than they've done already. They had a perfunctory scene in 8x01 and didn't interact at all in 8x02, so that may be it. If they are going to have an actual conversation of any meaning, though, getting Tyrion drunk and trapping them together in the crypts might be the only way the writers think they can get it.

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In the books, there are certainly examples (lord Manderly with his daugters, and at least Alys Karstark flirted with Jon on her own initiative). In the show, Jon has barely been home and a lot of the time he was home, there is this rich, exotic, foreign girl around him all the time.

I don't think it's surprising that the subject is off limits now that Jon's very intimidating dragon queen girlfriend is at Winterfell throwing her weight around, but it makes no sense that it never came up in S7.

Edited April 25, 2019 by Eyes High

[screamin]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

But was that really about her own feelings or just disagreeing with Dany to undermine her while still maintaining a facade of politeness? She had no trouble calling Tyrion an idiot to his face, acting rudely towards him during their short meeting (and keeping their conversation as short as possible), berating him in public, or calling for Jaime's death when Tyrion was sitting right there.

This is a question of adjudicating public justice. Is she supposed to go easy on a man who did all the serious things she truthfully accused him of doing just to be polite to his brother? Is Tyrion's queen being rude to Tyrion for calling for the exact same thing? As for calling him an idiot - well, she told him she no longer thought of him as the smartest man she knew. It seems to me that's a pretty gentle criticism for a man who likes making eunuch jokes to eunuchs - especially since regarding Cersei, he HAD been an idiot, to put it far more bluntly than Sansa did.

I do think, being the two most prominent characters to be consigned to the crypt, they WILL at some point be talking while the battle rages, even if it's just to nervously discuss whether their unconsummated marriage can be considered null and void, or need to be dissolved by the High Septon, or whether the NK's sword-stroke will make it a moot point.

What I'm wondering about is the scroll that Sophie said Sansa gets. It seems to me to indicate that there won't be a general massacre in the crypt - since no one's going to be getting mail during the battle, it must be something that happens after the battle's over.

[Eyes High]

19 minutes ago, screamin said:

This is a question of adjudicating public justice. Is she supposed to go easy on a man who did all the serious things she truthfully accused him of doing just to be polite to his brother?

There was no indication that she was at all concerned about what Tyrion was going through seeing his brother put on trial, or the effect of her condemnation on him (which could have been accomplished by a hesitant look or what have you)...which is fine, but it does give the lie to this notion that she cares about him or his feelings in the slightest, which she would if she were on "good terms" with him as claimed.

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As for calling him an idiot - well, she told him she no longer thought of him as the smartest man she knew. It seems to me that's a pretty gentle criticism for a man who likes making eunuch jokes to eunuchs

Oh, come on. Tyrion's comment to Varys was friendly ribbing between two people who have been very close for a long time. Sansa's comment to Tyrion was a snide little burn to give Sansa something to flounce away on (much like Sansa sneering at Littlefinger in 7x01 "I'll assume it was something clever"), and they both knew it. It was genuinely nasty and calculated to hurt. Not something one does to people one’s on “good terms” with.

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What I'm wondering about is the scroll that Sophie said Sansa gets.

Sophie accidentally let it slip in an interview that it's from the very last episode.

Edited April 25, 2019 by Eyes High

[BadAssRobinArryn]

42 minutes ago, screamin said:

What I'm wondering about is the scroll that Sophie said Sansa gets. It seems to me to indicate that there won't be a general massacre in the crypt - since no one's going to be getting mail during the battle, it must be something that happens after the battle's over.

Sansa could leave the crypt at one Point. One of the Pictures shows her outside with Arya, after all.

There is a new so called leak on reddit from today, that claims exactly this. According to this, Sansa and Tyrion both leave the crypt at one point and a bit later everyone in it (including Gilly, Missandei and Little Sam) with the exception of Varys gets killed. I'm like 90% sure it's fake, but it does have some new stuff that I haven't seen anywhere else, like Jaime being buried under an undead horse (and surviving injured) and Varys gouging out his own eyes because of the horror in the crypt.

Edited April 25, 2019 by BadAssRobinArryn

[Morrigan2575]

Reddit thinks it's a fake

[cambridgeguy]

Varys gouging his own eyes out seems a little too over the top.  That's even worse than what book Cat did at the end of the Red Wedding and that never happened in the show.

Edited April 25, 2019 by cambridgeguy

[GrailKing]

I think I found a new WP. :https://artofmosk.tumblr.com/image/184391330658

[screamin]

2 hours ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

Sansa could leave the crypt at one Point. One of the Pictures shows her outside with Arya, after all.

There is a new so called leak on reddit from today, that claims exactly this. According to this, Sansa and Tyrion both leave the crypt at one point and a bit later everyone in it (including Gilly, Missandei and Little Sam) with the exception of Varys gets killed. I'm like 90% sure it's fake, but it does have some new stuff that I haven't seen anywhere else, like Jaime being buried under an undead horse (and surviving injured) and Varys gouging out his own eyes because of the horror in the crypt.

I agree with cambridgeguy that it doesn't seem plausible, especially the part about Varys - he's looked on enough horrors, including his own mutilation - this isn't likely to send him around the bend into HP Lovecraft madness.

Edited April 26, 2019 by screamin

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

It was genuinely nasty and calculated to hurt. Not something one does to people one’s on “good terms” with.

It was truth ! and after Ep 2 he got bitch slapped, by Dany and indirectly from Cersei.

It's something one does if that person's house helped destroyed hers.She was on at most friendly, good is a bit much, she always says kind, yet she burns him too in KL. 

[Raachel2008]

1 hour ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

Sansa could leave the crypt at one Point. One of the Pictures shows her outside with Arya, after all.

There is a new so called leak on reddit from today, that claims exactly this. According to this, Sansa and Tyrion both leave the crypt at one point and a bit later everyone in it (including Gilly, Missandei and Little Sam) with the exception of Varys gets killed. I'm like 90% sure it's fake, but it does have some new stuff that I haven't seen anywhere else, like Jaime being buried under an undead horse (and surviving injured) and Varys gouging out his own eyes because of the horror in the crypt.

I had to read the entire thing and a lot of what this person says doesn’t make any sense. The guy says Tormund barely does anything but KJ spent weeks doing the battle scenes - per himself. He says the NK kills Bran and Beric brings him back - what is the point of that?

And I must be in the minority here, but I cannot see this episode ending with just C list characters dying.

[Eyes High]

30 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

It was truth ! and after Ep 2 he got bitch slapped, by Dany and indirectly from Cersei.

It's something one does if that person's house helped destroyed hers.She was on at most friendly, good is a bit much, she always says kind, yet she burns him too in KL. 

No, it was rude and mean-spirited, which was my point. It wasn’t even “truth,” since Sansa never gave any indication that she thought highly of Tyrion’s cleverness. She was just being a nasty bitch to people she dislikes, as per usual. In character for Sansa these days, unfortunately, but the fact remains, and TV Sansa has always used Tyrion as a punching bag (as she did at Blackwater) because she knows he won’t fight back, which is less “Haha she burned him, yasss kween!” and more “Wow, Sansa’s a coward.”

Edited April 25, 2019 by Eyes High

[screamin]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Oh, come on. Tyrion's comment to Varys was friendly ribbing between two people who have been very close for a long time.

"Oh, come on, what do you mean, it's offensive?! He loves it when I make fun of the traumatic mutilation he suffered in his childhood and the condition that most men in Westeros would consider the deadliest insult! He was just kidding when he implied that he dislikes it as much as I dislike jokes about dwarfs - he can't get enough of it!" You may see Varys reveling in the insults as affectionate byplay - I see that even the whitewashing the showrunners applied to St. Tyrion hasn't covered completely his book tendency toward occasionally being a douche. Eye of the beholder, and all.

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

There was no indication that she was at all concerned about what Tyrion was going through seeing his brother put on trial, or the effect of her condemnation on him (which could have been accomplished by a hesitant look or what have you)...which is fine, but it does give the lie to this notion that she cares about him or his feelings in the slightest, which she would if she were on "good terms" with him as claimed.

I didn't see any such thing from Dany either, when she was describing what she thought of what Jaime had done and her childhood memories of lovingly planning with her brother Jaime's horrible death. Does that mean you think Dany was viciously rude to Tyrion, and doesn't care about him or his feelings in the slightest? Or maybe she's just recounting what she considers Jaime's crimes and what she considers the appropriate punishment for them in court, because Tyrion's feelings are irrelevant to discussions of Jaime's crime and punishment?

I think there will be further conversation between Tyrion and Sansa, simply because they're the two most prominent characters in the crypts - they'll have to go over things. And I don't think 'politeness' means that Sansa mustn't EVER tell him the truth - and it WAS idiotic for Tyrion to trust Cersei (to put in in terms more blunt than Sansa used).

Edited April 25, 2019 by screamin

[scottiB]

7 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

He says the NK kills Bran and Beric brings him back - what is the point of that?

IIRC, another spoilerist in the past year said that Beric reanimates Bran. I didn’t understand it either until this past episode when Bran contains the memories of mankind. I can see Beric wanting to save that. 

Beric already feels his purpose is to kill the NK, so he either is with Theon already or rushes there when the NK arrives. He misses his chance but is there when Bran is killed. His purpose is to fight death by giving his life. 

Perhaps Bran will lose his Mark of the Night King when he awakes. 

Or it’s bull. 

[Eyes High]

28 minutes ago, screamin said:

"Oh, come on, what do you mean, it's offensive?! He loves it when I make fun of the traumatic mutilation he suffered in his childhood and the condition that most men in Westeros would consider the deadliest insult! He was just kidding when he implied that he dislikes it as much as I dislike jokes about dwarfs - he can't get enough of it!"

Yes, Tyrion making silly jokes with his close friend and ally of several years is exactly the same as Sansa nastily going out of her way to cut Tyrion down the minute they have the first conversation they've had in five (?) years. It's plain enough: Sansa acted in a cruel, deliberately nasty way, and not for the first time with Tyrion.

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I see that even the whitewashing the showrunners applied to St. Tyrion hasn't covered completely his book tendency toward occasionally being a douche. Eye of the beholder, and all.

This "St. Tyrion" talk is pretty funny given that GRRM when recently asked to name which characters translated to the show the best from the novels, named Tyrion (along with Ned), but what does he know? Eye of the beholder, and all, right?

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I think there will be further conversation between Tyrion and Sansa, simply because they're the two most prominent characters in the crypts - they'll have to go over things.

Yes, and judging from Tyrion's upset look in the 8x03 promo, Sansa uses the opportunity to take pointlessly cruel potshots at him as she did at Blackwater and in 8x01. Cowardly and shitty, but very much in character.

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And I don't think 'politeness' means that Sansa mustn't EVER tell him the truth - and it WAS idiotic for Tyrion to trust Cersei (to put in in terms more blunt than Sansa used).

There are ways to "tell the truth" without being an asshole about it, but that's neither here nor there, since she didn't "tell him the truth": Sansa never thought particularly highly of Tyrion's cleverness. What she did do was say something needlessly nasty to hurt him and cut short a conversation she didn't want to have. She pretty much acted like an asshole for that entire exchange, though, so both in of itself and in context it comes off as incredibly bitchy.

The writers have implied that in this particular context, Sansa's bitchiness is less her general bitchy behaviour towards non-relatives and more a specific beef with Tyrion being Dany's Hand, but either way, it's hardly indicative of "good terms." 

Edited April 26, 2019 by Eyes High

[Minneapple]

I'm not sure even Tyrion cared that much that Sansa was mean to him. 

[screamin]

10 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

This "St. Tyrion" talk is pretty funny given that GRRM when recently asked to name which characters translated to the show the best from the novels, named Tyrion (along with Ned), but what does he know? Eye of the beholder, and all, right?

So, you think slave-raping Book Tyrion could NEVER possibly be described as a bit of a douche - and that there's no real difference between slave-raping Book Tyrion and Show Tyrion? Yes, eye of the beholder.

And I think the fact that the show-runners HAVE soft-pedaled Tyrion - by NOT having him rape a slave, by having him kill Shae in defense when she attacks him with a dagger instead of outright murdering her in retaliation for calling him 'Giant of Lannister' and sleeping with his dad, among other changes - means the showrunners are going to have to make an end that Book Tyrion entirely deserves (execution) serve a character who they've made too sympathetic to deserve it. That's why the whole 'betrayal' storyline seems so weird to us now, even though Book Tyrion seems far more likely to betray.

Re the rest of your post regarding Sansa - I'd be happy to take it to her appropriate thread.

Edited April 26, 2019 by screamin

[Eyes High]

19 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

I'm not sure even Tyrion cared that much that Sansa was mean to him. 

Sure, I guess we can add "Tyrion doesn't care" that to the long list of excuses that have been made for Sansa's behaviour. Why not? Sansa's obviously doing him a favour by saying nasty things, since she's "telling him the truth" and there's no other way she could have possibly expressed her feelings than by insulting him.

To bring this back to S8 speculation, I do think Tyrion's upset expression and Sansa's bitchy side eye in the 8x03 still suggest that Sansa's going to do the thing she does with Tyrion when she's under stress and say nasty things to him. Whether anything comes of it or whether it's just Sansa being her usual bitchy self remains to be seen.

As a thought, Tyrion needs a reason to betray the Starks if that's going to happen, so maybe Sansa crossing the line one too many times with pointlessly mean bullshit is what pushes him over the edge. Tywin crossing the line one too many times with Tyrion got him a crossbow in the guts. Sansa crossing the line + Pod dying at Winterfell + Jaime dying at Winterfell (possibly) + revelation of Jon's parentage could equal one angry, resentful Tyrion who is 1,000% done with the Starks.

17 minutes ago, screamin said:

So, you think slave-raping Book Tyrion could NEVER possibly be described as a bit of a douche  - and that there's no real difference between slave-raping Book Tyrion and Show Tyrion? Yes, eye of the beholder.

GRRM knows Tyrion far better than you ever will and he thinks TV Tyrion is a character who translated best from the books, so maybe you should rethink whether complaining about "St. Tyrion" makes any sense. If GRRM loves "St. Tyrion" and considers him a great representation of the book character, then maybe your grasp of the book character isn't what you thought it was.

Edited April 26, 2019 by Eyes High

[Minneapple]

Just saying...that's a lot of words and a lot of repetition about how Sansa was bitchy and mean to poor Tyrion. I mean, we've seen this tree before.

Tyrion sat down to have a chat with Bran so thus far it doesn't seem like he's holding much against the Starks.

[Eyes High]

9 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Just saying...that's a lot of words and a lot of repetition about how Sansa was bitchy and mean to poor Tyrion. I mean, we've seen this tree before.

We've also "seen" myriad nonsense arguments made in an attempt to defend or minimize her awful behaviour, including, most recently, "Tyrion doesn't care," so here we are.

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Tyrion sat down to have a chat with Bran so thus far it doesn't seem like he's holding much against the Starks.

Not at present, but it could be table setting for a dramatic reversal down the line. Will Tyrion be as friendly and chatty with Bran as he was in 8x02 when he finds out how Jon learned of his parentage? Will Tyrion be as tolerant of Sansa's shitty behaviour towards him as he was in 8x01 if Pod and/or Jaime die horrible deaths defending the Starks' ancestral home? Will Tyrion be making great public speeches vouching for Jon's wisdom as he did in 8x01 once he finds out that he has a claim trumping Dany's? Probably not.

Another possible indication of the back three episodes not working out super well for Tyrion: Peter Dinklage named the fireside scene as his favourite of the season.

Edited April 26, 2019 by Eyes High

[anamika]

Sansa's bitchy to everyone. She has made snarky remarks and commented on LF, Tyrion and Jon's intelligence and how they are all stupid now as opposed to her. As Jon told Arya - Sansa thinks she's smarter than everyone. This is who she is now.  Like Cersei over in KL.

She's going to get a rude awakening next episode. Sansa saying 'The most heroic thing we can do now is look the truth in the face' in the preview for next episode is hilarious in the context of her creating conflict and dissension against Jon for 2 frigging seasons.  Hey Sansa, maybe if you had actually looked the truth in the face nine episodes back and trusted in your brother, Jon would have had an easier time uniting the houses against a common threat.

23 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

To bring this back to S8 speculation, I do think Tyrion's upset expression and Sansa's bitchy side eye in the 8x03 still suggest that Sansa's going to do the thing she does with Tyrion and say nasty things to him.

I don't think she is going to be rude and make nasty remarks to Tyrion. That's Sansa's standard expression these days, except with Theon. 

If there is a Tyrion betrayal plot though this maybe where the 'smartest person Arya has ever met' figures out something about Tyrion. And hence the stankface.

As for 'St.Tyrion', pretty much every character on the show has been massively whitewashed to make them more palatable to a TV audience.

Edited April 26, 2019 by anamika

[joliefaire]

So, there are two (potentially massive) spoilery clues hanging out there that I haven't seen yet discussed at this board.  Lets dig into these, figure out what they might mean!

1.  We know the opening credits for S8 have changed, but have we really zeroed in on those changes?  For example, the Isle of Faces, north of KL, is now on the credits, BUT it is no longer an island!  It is shown now as a peninsula, with a spit of land adjoining it to the mainland.  WHY??  My guess is that it makes it easier for NK and his dead army to cross onto the 'isle'.  Why would they want to?  Perhaps to destroy all the weirwood trees there?  Perhaps after all, NK's sole purpose, his sole ambition for everything he's doing is to destroy all the weirwoods left in Westeros?  We'll know better after Ep. 3--if he makes it appoint to deliberately destroy the weirwood at Winterfell, we know that's what he's after.  Could it be that the magic the Children of the Forest used to create him is kept intact only through the weirwoods, and if they're all destroyed, he'll be free to just die as a normal 8,000 year old human man?

2.  At the opening of Ep 8.01, the little boy running to see the arrival of Dany, Jon and their armies has a brown leather satchel slung on his shoulder, of the type that looks like it would be used to carry documents.  In 8.02, one of the two little girls who get up and walk away from Missendei has a similar brown leather satchel slung on her shoulder.  AND, the little burned girl who spoke with Davos and then said she would go and guard the crypts during the battle had the same brown leather satchel.  So, Varys' little birds?  Qyburn's sparrows?  We did hear Cersei tell Qyburn earlier (cant remember which episode) to expand his spy ring everywhere). 

[Eyes High]

11 minutes ago, anamika said:

She's going to get a rude awakening next episode. Sansa saying 'The most heroic thing we can do now is look the truth in the face' in the preview for next episode is hilarious in the context of her creating conflict and dissension against Jon for 2 frigging seasons.  Hey Sansa, maybe if you had actually looked the truth in the face nine episodes back and trusted in your brother, Jon would have had an easier time uniting the houses against a common threat.

I think both Stark sisters are going to get a huge reality check in 8x03. 

I'll be very amused if Sansa goes full bitter, angrily despairing Cersei at Blackwater in the crypts after listening to talk for the whole offseason about how noble and brave Sansa would supposedly be comforting the women and children.

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If there is a Tyrion betrayal plot though this maybe where the 'smartest person Arya has ever met' figures out something about Tyrion. And hence the stankface.

Well, they have to introduce it at some point, unless the betrayal is limited to Tyrion making an ill-advised, last-minute decision to prevent people escaping so they will be burned and can't be turned into wights, in which case it wouldn't happen any earlier than 8x05.

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As for 'St.Tyrion', pretty much every character on the show has been massively whitewashed to make them more palatable to a TV audience.

I agree. No baby switch order for Jon. No wineseller daughter torture order for Dany. No Blackwater assault at knifepoint for Sandor. No mass Baratheon baby killing order for Cersei. And so on.

Edited April 26, 2019 by Eyes High

[GraceK]

8 minutes ago, joliefaire said:

So, there are two (potentially massive) spoilery clues hanging out there that I haven't seen yet discussed at this board.  Lets dig into these, figure out what they might mean!

1.  We know the opening credits for S8 have changed, but have we really zeroed in on those changes?  For example, the Isle of Faces, north of KL, is now on the credits, BUT it is no longer an island!  It is shown now as a peninsula, with a spit of land adjoining it to the mainland.  WHY??  My guess is that it makes it easier for NK and his dead army to cross onto the 'isle'.  Why would they want to?  Perhaps to destroy all the weirwood trees there?  Perhaps after all, NK's sole purpose, his sole ambition for everything he's doing is to destroy all the weirwoods left in Westeros?  We'll know better after Ep. 3--if he makes it appoint to deliberately destroy the weirwood at Winterfell, we know that's what he's after.  Could it be that the magic the Children of the Forest used to create him is kept intact only through the weirwoods, and if they're all destroyed, he'll be free to just die as a normal 8,000 year old human man?

2.  At the opening of Ep 8.01, the little boy running to see the arrival of Dany, Jon and their armies has a brown leather satchel slung on his shoulder, of the type that looks like it would be used to carry documents.  In 8.02, one of the two little girls who get up and walk away from Missendei has a similar brown leather satchel slung on her shoulder.  AND, the little burned girl who spoke with Davos and then said she would go and guard the crypts during the battle had the same brown leather satchel.  So, Varys' little birds?  Qyburn's sparrows?  We did hear Cersei tell Qyburn earlier (cant remember which episode) to expand his spy ring everywhere). 

😮 That’s awesome ...I love both speculations!!!

Edited April 26, 2019 by GraceK

[Minneapple]

Just now, Eyes High said:

Not at present, but it could be table setting for a dramatic reversal down the line. Will Tyrion be as friendly and chatty with Bran as he was in 8x02 when he finds out how Jon learned of his parentage? Will Tyrion be as forgiving of Sansa's shitty behaviour towards him as he was in 8x01 if Pod and/or Jaime die horrible deaths defending the Starks' ancestral home? Will Tyrion be making great public speeches vouching for Jon's wisdom as he did in 8x01 once he finds out that he has a claim trumping Dany's?

1. So should Bran have consulted with Tyrion about how to tell Jon of his parentage? Hey, maybe he could share with Tyrion how Jaime shoved him off the tower. Or Tyrion could just remember the time his family kept Sansa as a hostage in King's Landing. The Lannisters haven't exactly been cuddly toward the Starks.

2. Jaime is an adult and a knight. If Jaime chooses to defend Winterfell and dies, that's his choice. Tyrion would be stupid to blame Sansa or any of the Starks if Jaime dies.

3. Well, probably not, since he's Dany's Hand and not Jon's. I mean I don't see Jon going to Tyrion to ask him to make a speech anyway.

Honestly the "Tyrion betrayal" leaks seem to me like they will be Tyrion thinking he's doing what's right and being completely wrong as usual. Even if Dany goes villain, I think it will be a case of her trying to do the right thing, but doing it all wrong. I don't think she'll be straight up evil or anything like that, because she always has good intentions. Sometimes she just doesn't go about things the right way, which is pretty much universal for all characters in this universe.

[MarySNJ]

28 minutes ago, joliefaire said:

So, there are two (potentially massive) spoilery clues hanging out there that I haven't seen yet discussed at this board.  Lets dig into these, figure out what they might mean!

1.  We know the opening credits for S8 have changed, but have we really zeroed in on those changes?  For example, the Isle of Faces, north of KL, is now on the credits, BUT it is no longer an island!  It is shown now as a peninsula, with a spit of land adjoining it to the mainland.  WHY??  My guess is that it makes it easier for NK and his dead army to cross onto the 'isle'.  Why would they want to?  Perhaps to destroy all the weirwood trees there?  Perhaps after all, NK's sole purpose, his sole ambition for everything he's doing is to destroy all the weirwoods left in Westeros?  We'll know better after Ep. 3--if he makes it appoint to deliberately destroy the weirwood at Winterfell, we know that's what he's after.  Could it be that the magic the Children of the Forest used to create him is kept intact only through the weirwoods, and if they're all destroyed, he'll be free to just die as a normal 8,000 year old human man?

2.  At the opening of Ep 8.01, the little boy running to see the arrival of Dany, Jon and their armies has a brown leather satchel slung on his shoulder, of the type that looks like it would be used to carry documents.  In 8.02, one of the two little girls who get up and walk away from Missendei has a similar brown leather satchel slung on her shoulder.  AND, the little burned girl who spoke with Davos and then said she would go and guard the crypts during the battle had the same brown leather satchel.  So, Varys' little birds?  Qyburn's sparrows?  We did hear Cersei tell Qyburn earlier (cant remember which episode) to expand his spy ring everywhere). 

1.  When the NK passes everything freezes, so it makes sense that maybe the Isle of Faces has an ice bridge now, so that the AotD can pass through there. I think it's a good guess that probably something there that the NK wants. Or maybe it's just a wink at book fans who think the Isle of Faces will be important. 

I love the idea that the NK just wants to die, and the Weirwoods are part of the trap that he's caught in, but I feel like dragon glass has to be part of the recipe for his reversion to humanity and death. 

2. When my kids were in school they had Jansport backpacks. So did a lot of other kids in their schools. Maybe that brown satchel is just the Westerosi version of a backpack. That being said, I think the idea that there are little birds there is interesting, but I would think it's far too dangerous now for children to be used as spies... then again, I don't get the impression that a psychopath like Qyburn would care about the danger to anyone in his employ. 

Edited April 26, 2019 by MarySNJ

[Eyes High]

28 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

1. So should Bran have consulted with Tyrion about how to tell Jon of his parentage? Hey, maybe he could share with Tyrion how Jaime shoved him off the tower. Or Tyrion could just remember the time his family kept Sansa as a hostage in King's Landing. The Lannisters haven't exactly been cuddly toward the Starks.

2. Jaime is an adult and a knight. If Jaime chooses to defend Winterfell and dies, that's his choice. Tyrion would be stupid to blame Sansa or any of the Starks if Jaime dies.

3. Well, probably not, since he's Dany's Hand and not Jon's. I mean I don't see Jon going to Tyrion to ask him to make a speech anyway.

I didn't say that these reactions would be reasonable reactions, but grief and pain do strange things to people, and I can think of few things that would cause Tyrion more grief and pain than Jaime dying. If Jaime dies defending the Starks, reflexively blaming the Starks and resenting them might be how Tyrion deals with Jaime's death, as irrational as it might be.

Quote

Honestly the "Tyrion betrayal" leaks seem to me like they will be Tyrion thinking he's doing what's right and being completely wrong as usual. 

That's not a betrayal, no more than he was "betraying" Dany by (honestly, apparently) believing Cersei had changed and negotiating a deal that Cersei had no intention of honouring. Being a fuckup is not a betrayal.

[joliefaire]

17 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

Or maybe it's just a wink at book fans who think the Isle of Faces will be important. 

Why would the show making the Isle a peninsula, be a wink at book fans who think the Isle will be important?  If the Isle ISN"T important, then just leave it an Isle as is.  How does changing it into a peninsula and then still having it be not important at all, make any sense?

[Minneapple]

2 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I didn't say that these reactions would be reasonable reactions, but grief and pain do strange things to people, and I can think of few things that would cause Tyrion more grief and pain than Jaime dying. If Jaime dies defending the Starks, reflexively blaming the Starks and resenting them might be how Tyrion deals with Jaime's death, as irrational as it might be.

That's not a betrayal, no more than he was "betraying" Dany by (honestly, apparently) believing Cersei had changed and negotiating a deal that Cersei had no intention of honouring. Being a fuckup is not a betrayal.

Okay, then it's fair for Sansa to be bitchy to Tyrion given his family's actions toward her. It's not rational, but maybe bitchiness is how she deals.

And, perhaps Tyrion fucks up and it's seen as a betrayal. 

[anamika]

With regard to the Others, I think we can look for some clues as to the mythology behind them from GRRM's inspiration for ASoIaF, namely Memory, Sorrow and Thorn:

Quote

Tad’s fantasy series, The Dragonbone Chair and the rest of his famous four-book trilogy was one of the things that inspired me to write my own seven-book trilogy. I read Tad and was impressed by him, but the imitators that followed -- well, fantasy got a bad rep for being very formulaic and ritual. And I read The Dragonbone Chair and said, "My god, they can do something with this form," and it’s Tad doing it. It’s one of my favorite fantasy series.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/jan/17/tropes-trolls-and-trump-meet-one-of-george-rr-martins-favourite-fantasy-writers-tad-williams

I will link to this discussion on Reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/8iaiu7/spoilers_extended_asoiaf_and_memory_sorrow_and/

So if we look at the Storm King in MST:

Quote

The kingdom (Osten Ard) was originally controlled by the Sithi, elf-like creatures with immortal lifespans. Then the first men crossed a land bridge to Osten Ard (hmm…) and despite initial conflict settled into a truce and relatively peaceful coexistence before other men crossed on ships, bringing with them iron, which is deadly to the Sithi (hmmmmm…)

As men destroy the Sithi and take their lands, the Sithi prince Ineluki unleashes dark magic as the men reach the Sithi capital, essentially destroying everyone and everything present. Ineluki lives on as a sort of vengeful spirit, the “Storm King.”

The Sithi have a sister tribe called the Norns, and the tribe split over disagreement regarding how to deal with the first humans. The Norns wanted to destroy humans right away. After the disagreement a pact was made and the Norns, who are pale with blue eyes, left for the far north.

The Sithi are the Children of the Forest. The Norns are the Others. The Norns ally with the Storm King (who was Sithi) in the shared goal of destroying humanity.

As for the mythology, prophecy and how to defeat the Storm King:

Quote

For most of the series, the characters believe that the only way to defeat the Storm King is to bring three swords (named Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn) together. They believe this because they’re following a prophecy. In reality, bringing the swords together will allow the Storm King to exact his revenge on humanity. They were tricked by the Norns, who generally moved humans around like chess pieces.

Something similar is happening with the Children of the Forest and the Others. R’hllor is a ruse of the COTF via Bran and Bloodraven.

Melisandre and others are sent visions and dreams of things that will happen in the future, and they think the source is a benevolent god who only wants to help them defeat the Others. These visions prompt action from the recipients. In the show, it’s strongly implied that the Night’s King set a trap to obtain a dragon, and the leaked outlines support this interpretation. The chess pieces are moved in the real game of thrones between the COTF, the Others, and men.

The three swords sound like the 3 heads of the dragon. So maybe in ASoIaF, Rhaegar was wrong and the three heads of the dragon actually helps the NK as opposed to defeating him? Maybe the prince that was promised and Azor Ahai and the prophecies in general are all traps laid by the NK to defeat the humans and reclaim his lands and bring an endless night?

I think GRRM has developed a mythology for the Others that may have some resemblances to the Norns in MST - rid Planetos of the humans who attacked and displaced the children of the forest.

If Maisie is right in that she found the resolution of the WW/NK story to be the most interesting and if BsB is right in her leaks, then we may see something similar.

It's been hinted at in the books and on the show that the dragons don't like the North and that Aegon may have originally come to Westeros because of this threat and Euron has a chance of controlling a dragon in the books and on the show the NK took down the wall with Viserion.

Maybe the NK is controlling certain events through prophecies - Lord of Light - and he wanted dragons in Westeros. Not sure what the 3ER's role is in all this and Bran's statement that the NK is coming for him. The raven is another character - the NK's archenemy - who is also manipulating events to suit the endgame he wants.

Edited April 26, 2019 by anamika

[Eyes High]

16 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Okay, then it's fair for Sansa to be bitchy to Tyrion given his family's actions toward her. It's not rational, but maybe bitchiness is how she deals.

It is rational. Sansa knows exactly what she's doing with Tyrion: trying to make him feel bad to make herself feel better. Sophie said as much in her character recap for S8 when talking about Sansa and Tyrion's 4x01 scene. It's cowardly and awful of her, but it's not irrational.

As for Tyrion, I'm not weighing in on the fairness of Tyrion having a Stark-related meltdown, but if he does actually betray the Starks as opposed to Dany--and I mean a real betrayal, not this whole Friki/Javi speculation that Tyrion commits some kind of KL atrocity to try to save everyone else--then presumably given his Stark-positive attitude in the first two episodes, he has to have a change of heart towards them at some point. I'm speculating about the possible reasons for that. Losing the only person who ever loved him and being left with indifferent Starks high fiving each other over Jon trumping Tyrion's queen's claim might do the trick.

It is possible that Sansa and Tyrion have some kind of rapprochement instead of some kind of dramatic argument in the crypts. Hannah Murray did say she's a fan of Sansa/Tyrion (along with Jaime/Brienne), and Gilly is probably part of that same crypts scene. She probably wouldn't be a fan of the relationship if there's some sort of horrible conflict between the two.

Edited April 26, 2019 by Eyes High

[screamin]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

GRRM knows Tyrion far better than you ever will and he thinks TV Tyrion is a character who translated best from the books, so maybe you should rethink whether complaining about "St. Tyrion" makes any sense. If GRRM loves "St. Tyrion" and considers him a great representation of the book character, then maybe your grasp of the book character isn't what you thought it was.

I'm asking you whether you think it's monstruously unfair to say that Book Tyrion who raped a slave is a bit of a douche, not GRRM. You're not him. And you're not even citing his quote to show whether he's praising the show writers for their absolute fidelity to what he wrote of Tyrion in the books, or praising the quality of Dinklage's acting. So I don't accept your authority when you say that GRRM thinks that Show Tyrion is an absolute carbon copy of Book Tyrion, because:

1) We have already seen GRRM take public exception (more than once, IIRC) to the changes the writers have made to his books - (citation here and here), and,

2) Saying "I think Show Tyrion is NOT a douche, and GRRM says Book Tyrion = Show Tyrion, therefore I conclude that nothing either Show Tyrion or Book Tyrion does is douchey" makes absolutely no sense, logically speaking.

According to GRRM, he expects the major end points of the show to more or less match what he has planned for the books, here:

Quote

So you’re gonna be somewhat surprised by their ending then, perhaps …

Well, to a degree. I mean, I think … the major points of the ending will be things that I told them, you know, five or six years ago. But there may also be changes, and there’ll be a lot added.

But in the same article, he also laments that the showrunners won't have time to adequately deal with the plot he's laid out in the few episodes that are left. Implication? There will be shortchanging of a lot of plotlines.

If Show Tyrion has the same ending GRRM intended for Book Tyrion - I think the people who consider Show Tyrion to be a fundamentally noble woobie aren't going to be happy. Because Book Tyrion, despite significant redeemable qualities, also has a streak of genuine evil in his character that has manifested in some vile actions in the later books (like the afore-mentioned slave-raping), that he hasn't really paid for in karma. (If you disagree, please cite examples, not just the unsupported declaration, "GRRM says I'm right").

IMO, Book Tyrion's got some significant, painful payback coming to him in the books - and if Show Tyrion gets it for him, I think GRRM is worried that the show doesn't have enough time to explain why he deserves it - hence the hasty 'betrayal' plot point that is likely to leave us all unsatisfied.

Edited April 26, 2019 by screamin

[MarySNJ]

54 minutes ago, joliefaire said:

Why would the show making the Isle a peninsula, be a wink at book fans who think the Isle will be important?  If the Isle ISN"T important, then just leave it an Isle as is.  How does changing it into a peninsula and then still having it be not important at all, make any sense?

I think it will be important in the books, and would be relevant to book readers who know what it means, but probably not to TV only fans. If it's not going to be important in the TV show, it may have been changed in credits as fan service to keep us talking. There's been a lot of fan service so far this season, and I love it. 

[MadameKillerB]

how solid is this spoiler about Tyrion's "betrayal?"

If anyone "betrays" Dany, I think it will be Varys. If Tyrion can't control what Varys thinks is unqueenly and bad for the realm, Varys is gonna peace out...which puts his life in danger.

[GrailKing]

From Reddit:

So no one picked up on a female voice during Group scene ~ 45:52 minutes in

a woman voice saying "Let me out" at 45:52. ?

On my 5.1 Sony system vol level ~30 I hear a female voice, raised it to 50 I hear it ( right channel ), Put 2 channel head phones on hear it it the right pad.

[QuinnM]

10 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

On my 5.1 Sony system vol level ~30 I hear a female voice, raised it to 50 I hear it ( right channel ), Put 2 channel head phones on hear it it the right pad

Comcast is making me crazy.  So on broadcast I’m getting a static buzz there.  What is the line before they say it since I’m not finding Tyrion talking at 45:52 when I go to on demand. I have a Panasonic 5.2 so someone owes me money if I can’t pick this up.

Edited April 26, 2019 by QuinnM

[GrailKing]

3 minutes ago, QuinnM said:

Comcast is making me crazy.  So on broadcast I’m getting a static buzz there.  What is the line before they say it since I’m not finding Tyrion talking at 45:52 when I go to on demand. I have a Panasonic 5.2 so someone owes me money if I can’t pick this up.

I think it's : isn't it strange, we're all here in Winterfell.

I have HBO now on ROKU, and it can be heard, but the group talk is louder

[anamika]

1 hour ago, screamin said:

If Show Tyrion has the same ending GRRM intended for Book Tyrion - I think the people who consider Show Tyrion to be a fundamentally noble woobie aren't going to be happy. Because Book Tyrion, despite significant redeemable qualities, also has a streak of genuine evil in his character that has manifested in some vile actions in the later books (like the afore-mentioned slave-raping), that he hasn't really paid for in karma. (If you disagree, please cite examples, not just the unsupported declaration, "GRRM says I'm right").

Tyrion can betray the good guys, get executed and still be considered a fundamentally noble woobie by the audience.

Consider Jaime Lannister:

Tried to murder a little child to cover up his incestuous adultery in the house of his guest.  Murdered his cousin to try and escape from the Starks. Attacked Ned and killed several loyal Stark men. Raped his sister on top of his dead son's corpse. Did not give a damn about any of his three children until they died. Supported his sister even after she blew up the sept killing many innocent people. Looted and pillaged Highgarden with the Tarlys and killed Olenna Tyrell because she supported Dany.

And this Jaime Lannister is considered a noble woobie. Aww he loves Brienne so much. Isn't that cute!

It all ultimately depends on how the show writes for these characters. The audience sympathies and opinions depends on the POV of fan favorites.

Davos lost a most beloved son to Tyrion's wildfire - he brushes it aside. But Sam's sadness about his family? Explored in great detail.

I think even if show Tyrion betrays someone and gets executed for it, it will be written in such a way that audience sympathies will continue to lie with Tyrion.

Book Tyrion will ultimately go a different route to his endgame considering how much he reviles Cersei.

But after episode two his possible motivations continue to baffle me. Unless he is playing some great game/con with Cersei - which makes no sense.

I think this is Tyrion's endgame in the books/show :

Quote

Tyrion Lannister: "I am Tyrion, son of Tywin of Clan Lannister."

Shagga: "How would you like to die, Tyrion, son of Tywin?"

Tyrion Lannister: "In my own bed, at the age of 80 with a belly full of wine and a girl's mouth around my cock."

[TheGourmez]

On 4/24/2019 at 2:19 PM, Happy Harpy said:

Joe Dempsie might have been there for Jacob Anderson's last day of filming:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZrWCw7j2CY

"On his last day, he was trying to screw up a take so that he would last a bit longer" (OTOH, Joe D. and Jacob A. were friends before GoT.)

Everything from 4:33 on, "snitch on your castmates", was pretty funny.

That was a lot of fun to watch! And reminded me just how darn hot that man can be in modern day clothes. I'm not as much for the hot, greasy, blacksmith look.

[maryle]

I read that Peter D. said is overall favorite scene for tyrion was in episode 2!  The fire scen, it was a good scene without a doubt ( more focus on the ensemble than his character, tyrion ask if people want to drink most of the scene!) but not specifically for tyrion himself. This season could ( I saw this prediction so often in past years) be tyrion becoming king, heir of castle rock at least after he find a new succesful plan for his Queen and the alliance ( it is obvious he will have some kind of plan later). This weird choice for the last season of the show from him is what make 100% sure that tyrion will not be succesful or have a great ending so the betrayal must be thruth! Now he could be lying and later after tyrion have some victory or marry missandei change his answer! I mean I find him off, and saying or implying nothing and everything this year. So, will see! but I will not be betting on Tyrion, first of his name on the IT. And, if it is his best scene ( actor wise) he will not win any Emmy this year but,  here smt tell me he will have more meatier scene to come later that didnt let him with fond memory.

[ElizaD]

I'm starting to get worried because so many people seem to be talking about the NK being defeated by Jon in 8x03. That would be a huge disappointment. All this time waiting for people to realize that they must unite against a bigger threat only to see that Cersei was right, this really only matters to the North and nobody else in Westeros needed to give a damn. So much for politicking being pointless if 8x04-06 are only about getting Cersei off the throne. I hope those speculations turn out to be wrong - I want to see White Walkers in KL and people panicking because all this ancient shit is real. At first when 3 and 5 seemed to be the battle episodes, I thought that would mean more large-scale human combat in 3 and CGI/character-heavy duels in 5, and that sounded fine to me.