Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Jextella said:

So Arya is fated to kill someone with brown eyes, blue eyes, and green eyes.  Walter Fry had brown eyes , the night king had blue eyes, and we are still left with green eyes,  Who remains who has green eyes?

Sansa, Arya herself, Dany and Tyrion have eyes that look greenish at times.

Arya has killed scores of people; statistically at least one of them had green eyes.

[ShellsandCheese]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Seriously?

She adored her brothers, and her mother and father.  When she finally escaped from Ramsey, she ran to Jon.  When Rickon was hostage and killed, she was sad, but she knew he was already dead, because she knew Ramsey, and she understood politics by then.  She bonded with Arya this season, and joined with her, worked out significant issues because they were sisters.

She loves her family, the dead and those still living.

Eh. She ran to Jon because she needed him to go fight against Ramsay. 

Also, I said this in the Sansa thread and I’m repeating it here. There’s one way that the show could have a satisfying ending and that’s the complete destruction of the Iron Throne. As long as there is an Iron Threat there’s always going to be people jockeying, backstabbing, and willing to go to war for it. Yeah, you might have some stability but there’s also always going to be conflict. That’s why I want Dany to burn that shit to the ground. And it has to her; her ancestors built it. 

So I really hope this doesn’t end with Tyrion or Bran on the throne; it should be gone. Also, I’d be okay with a council if the seven kingdoms were all independent again and there was representation on the council from the seven kingdoms. 

Edited May 14, 2019 by ShellsandCheese

[SeanC]

9 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Also, I said this in the Sansa thread and I’m repeating it here. There’s one way that the show could have a satisfying ending and that’s the complete destruction of the Iron Throne. As long as there is an Iron Threat there’s always going to be people jockeying, backstabbing, and willing to go to war for it. Yeah, you might have some stability but there’s also always going to be conflict. That’s why I want Dany to burn that shit to the ground. And it has to her; her ancestors built it. 

So I really hope this doesn’t end with Tyrion or Bran on the throne; it should be gone. Also, I’d be okay with a council if the seven kingdoms were all independent again and there was representation on the council from the seven kingdoms. 

People will be jockeying, backstabbing and willing to go to war in seven independent kingdoms as well.

[Umbelina]

11 minutes ago, SeanC said:

People will be jockeying, backstabbing and willing to go to war in seven independent kingdoms as well.

Maybe not, if all 7 Kingdoms are on that council, and a Commonwealth of sorts is developed.

They are all sick of war, most of those waging war are now dead.  I can see them coming together for peace and rebuilding.

The spoilers MAY have only mentioned the council members they recognized.

Also, Bran's job is survival of the species, so he would be able to see and warn, thus let them nip in the bud future threats to that.

[ShellsandCheese]

10 minutes ago, SeanC said:

People will be jockeying, backstabbing and willing to go to war in seven independent kingdoms as well.

Smaller scale though. And the hierarchy is already pretty established in the seven kingdoms. All the chaos of late was caused by the fighting over the Iron Throne. If GRRM is serious about breaking tropes and scouring. Episode 5 was phase one, phase two should be the end of the IT and the Seven Kingdoms being united under one ruler. 

[Oscirus]

Theres gonna be people jockeying for power regardless of whether the throne exists or not,  The throne means nothing, it's merely a symbol. Best bet is to get a capable leader on that throne. 

[screamin]

2 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Theres gonna be people jockeying for power regardless of whether the throne exists or not,  The throne means nothing, it's merely a symbol. Best bet is to get a capable leader on that throne. 

Meh, I do think that the Iron Throne is too much of a temptation for someone to take a supreme power that can't be stably held over a long period of time without dragons - at least in an otherwise medieval world. IIRC, when the Targaryens' dragons died out they were desperate enough to get them back that even one of the 'good' Targaryens ended up causing a fire that annihilated most of the dynasty. Yes, the Targaryens had stretches of stability even without dragons, but they only lasted a few hundred years at best. The smaller kingdoms have been around for thousands.

[Oscirus]

3 minutes ago, screamin said:

Meh, I do think that the Iron Throne is too much of a temptation for someone to take a supreme power that can't be stably held over a long period of time without dragons - at least in an otherwise medieval world. IIRC, when the Targaryens' dragons died out they were desperate enough to get them back that even one of the 'good' Targaryens ended up causing a fire that annihilated most of the dynasty. Yes, the Targaryens had stretches of stability even without dragons, but they only lasted a few hundred years at best. The smaller kingdoms have been around for thousands.

Throne was fine under Robert and he was a shit king without dragons. I legit think as long as you have a good king or hand, especially in those times, you'll be able to rule the seven kingdoms especially in that era.  Only difference now is that as the magic dies out, the ability to rule will come down to diplomacy and alliances . 

[ShellsandCheese]

6 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Throne was fine under Robert and he was a shit king without dragons. I legit think as long as you have a good king or hand, especially in those times, you'll be able to rule the seven kingdoms especially in that era.  Only difference now is that as the magic dies out, the ability to rule will come down to diplomacy and alliances . 

Actually it wasn’t fine. There wasn’t any military conflict at least for a while, but there was still lots of maneuvering behind the scenes - it’s Roberts crappy reign that’s basically led to everything that has happened in the show. With seven independent kingdoms they won’t be drawn into the petty skirmishes that may be happening within individual kingdoms. With the current set-up, as soon as something happens - everybody has to pick a side. It ramps up hostility and casualties real quick. 

[screamin]

14 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Throne was fine under Robert and he was a shit king without dragons. I legit think as long as you have a good king or hand, especially in those times, you'll be able to rule the seven kingdoms especially in that era.  Only difference now is that as the magic dies out, the ability to rule will come down to diplomacy and alliances . 

There was at least one war after Robert took the throne - the Iron Islands rebelled, IIRC. And since then the crown was slowly sinking into debt, part of a slow-motion Lannister coup going on under Robert's indifferent eye that would have led to war eventually even if Ned had never come to King's Landing. Not to mention Dornish plotting. I don't think we can call it 'fine.'

[Umbelina]

At 28:24 or so, Arya confirms her future intentions.

(This whole thing is amazing by the way, props to the production people, actors, stuntmen...everyone.)

[rmontro]

Arya killing the Night King didn't come from GRRM, plus there is no Night King in the books.  I also think D&D steered away from the source material by choosing to ignore the prophecies.  I'm not so sure GRRM will do the same.

By the way, there was talk earlier about speculations that Tyrion was half Targaryen.  That's unlikely to bear any fruit in the TV series at least, but I remember those theories.  For awhile, people were expecting to see Dany, Jon, and Tyrion each riding a dragon.  That never came to pass, but I'm pretty sure I would have preferred that to what we've got.

[Bianca Castafiore]

Well, since I think the show at this point is more about ideas, themes and metaphors than the story itself, the constant reminder of independence from Sansa might be again foreshadowing of what's gonna happen in the end. And if Bran is put on a Throne that won't even exist anymore, might be because he is the safest choice. He won't try to gain power. He won't do anything basically since he is barely a human and he doesn't want anymore.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Bianca Castafiore

[Moxie Cat]

4 hours ago, Umbelina said:

The showrunners didn't EARN Dany's descent into despair.  They (as I just said in her thread) gave her one good scene, the scene where she says "they love you more than me." 

Had they bothered to build that love story between Jon and Dany, had they not crammed so many losses on Dany all at once?  Had they let Emilia do more than facilitate their "blockbuster war and dragon scenes?"

I believe we would understand how all these losses drove her to the brink.  At least we would CARE about it more.  This rush job was a serious mistake.

Yeah - I was spoiled by the basic story points before seeing this episode, and I have to say, I have no idea why she took that turn and just started blasting all the people in KL. She easily could have just flown to the Red Keep and annihilated it (and I did quite enjoy that part). Was she just "Targ" nuts? Had she reached her breaking point after the dragon deaths, Jorah, Missandei, and all the betrayals and possible betrayals she saw coming? Was she heartbroken about Jon? I really hope that if the books are ever written, Dany's specific motivation there is easier to understand. She has been ruthless in the past, but turning on average people was never her thing - even if she believed the population didn't care for her, it's hard to understand why she would willfully kill so many innocent people.

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, Moxie Cat said:

Yeah - I was spoiled by the basic story points before seeing this episode, and I have to say, I have no idea why she took that turn and just started blasting all the people in KL. She easily could have just flown to the Red Keep and annihilated it (and I did quite enjoy that part). Was she just "Targ" nuts? Had she reached her breaking point after the dragon deaths, Jorah, Missandei, and all the betrayals and possible betrayals she saw coming? Was she heartbroken about Jon? I really hope that if the books are ever written, Dany's specific motivation there is easier to understand. She has been ruthless in the past, but turning on average people was never her thing - even if she believed the population didn't care for her, it's hard to understand why she would willfully kill so many innocent people.

Alternately, was it a brilliant move that has been used before.

Decimate a city with fire and blood to end a war early.  After the rest of the people in Westeros hear about what happened in KL, not many of these war weary people are going to risk being burned to death by dragons, ridden by a woman who obviously WILL do that if opposed.

[Moxie Cat]

15 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Alternately, was it a brilliant move that has been used before.

It was definitely a brilliant move for those reasons - but I'm guessing that Dany will not be seen as brilliant. And, she could have pulled that same brilliant move - lucidly, with her whole team - at the beginning of season 7. Her plan to fly the 3 dragons to the Red Keep and just annihilate Cersei and the castle actually sounds pretty good, in retrospect.

And because I feel like griping: What was the point of Bran being able to alter history? Why the heck was it important that he affected Hodor? Why couldn't Hodor just be slow, full stop?

Unless there's some twist in the last episode, and we find out that Bran masterminded some past event to make the whole GOT story happen, I just don't understand why this was even a plot point. 

This is starting to remind me more and more of Lost, where at the end, you're saying "but what about THAT? And THAT? They never explained THAT!"

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Smaller scale though. And the hierarchy is already pretty established in the seven kingdoms. All the chaos of late was caused by the fighting over the Iron Throne. If GRRM is serious about breaking tropes and scouring. Episode 5 was phase one, phase two should be the end of the IT and the Seven Kingdoms being united under one ruler. 

While most of the Seven Kingdoms had implausibly long-lasting dynasties, they still had domestic turbulence and were constantly at war with each other, as GRRM's past histories of Westeros showed.  The Targaryen unification led to an overall decline in warfare and a corresponding huge growth in population.

[Bianca Castafiore]

I also suspect that we're going full circle with the main heroes storylines. Everyone will end up in a way or another in the same position as they were at the beginning of the story. Of course Bran is again the most difficult so see where he ends brcause of his nature, I just hope we don't see a cheesy dreamlike image of Dany and Drogo or someone facing a WW...

[screamin]

Just now, SeanC said:

While most of the Seven Kingdoms had implausibly long-lasting dynasties, they still had domestic turbulence and were constantly at war with each other, as GRRM's past histories of Westeros showed.  The Targaryen unification led to an overall decline in warfare and a corresponding huge growth in population.

Again, that sounds like history written by the victors. I'd like to see unbiased Westerosi opinion polls and census data. 😉

[ulkis]

4 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

I don't see how this is a happy ending for Jon, really.

I think he would like being with the wildings and the wolf better than in King's Landing on the iron throne.

[Bianca Castafiore]

1 minute ago, ulkis said:

I think he would like being with the wildings and the wolf better than in King's Landing on the iron throne.

I think the spoiler says that Jon takes the black again and exiles himself. No claim to the Throne anymore, no kids, no more Targs.

[anamika]

6 hours ago, Detective005 said:

I don't really understand many authors' choices. For example, the revelation of the true identity of jon for what is important? For what we've only seen to make dany become mad 

Actually they just blew up the whole Rhaegar - Lyanna stuff from the books with this ending. As per the show now, it was just an ordinary love affair and Rhaegar just eloped with Lyanna because he loved her and did not care about any of the consequences.

That vision Dany had in the books of Rhaegar looking at her and talking about the dragon having 3 heads, prince that was promised and song of ice and fire and all that ultimately meant nothing - because Rhaegar did not elope because of prophecy as per the show.

Rhaegar ran away for love and got KL sacked by Tywin and his goons the first time around and some 16-17 years later his son and sister fell in love and were involved in the sacking of KL again. And there's no meaning behind any of this. It just happened.

And as per the show, Dany was the ultimate antagonist. Not the zombies up North, Cersei, Joffrey, Ramsay. But Dany. And she became the ultimate series antagonist 30 minutes into the penultimate episode because of some bells. But she dies fighting for what she's always wanted.

There was no point to Bran's journey and anything he ever said or did except now apparently Tyrion is going to use him as a puppet ruler.

Sophie Turner did indeed spoil the ending with her tattoo all those months ago, though I am not sure if that was the right show quote to use considering the character she plays is a devious, backstabbing snake willing to throw family under the bus for personal gain. But she gets to rule the North like she always wanted.

Arya seems to have some semblance of a proper arc. She got to have some fun sexy times with a hot blacksmith, utilized her two season Braavos plot to take down the NK and now has given up on revenge. I used to want her to stay at WF, but now would rather she go off on adventures.

Jon's best story remains his time at the wall and with the wildlings. Fitting that he goes back there. Kit mentioned that he found Jon's ending satisfying - and after 3 seasons of terrible writing for the character, I agree. This is the only place he can end up.

Tyrion ends up in charge after bungling up things for everyone else. He can take over for Jon as the noble, good moron in charge of KL and puppet Bran with his dudebros on the council. He's qualified to do so in the books.

Jaime and Cersei - this show's true love story. Staying together through thick and thin. Came into this world together and left it together.

Poor Brienne. I hope she can go out on adventures with Pod or go back to Tarth rather than being stuck as Sansa's bodyguard because of her oaths to Catelyn.  She's a knight now. There's more she can do.

[jeansheridan]

I had a terrible ridiculous idea that I must share because y'all will hate it.

You know how Tyrion pulls up a chair to chat with Bran but we never hear the story? What if everything we have seen since that moment is Bran's story? One potential future. And Tyrion can change it. Not everything (let Arya do her stabby thing) but the rest. Keep Jon's secret, protect the second dragon and Missendrei, attack the city but not the whole slaughter. Heh. Oh people would be pissed but time travel of sorts has been introduced. I personally might love a revision. Sorry. Too much Avengers.

[rmontro]

31 minutes ago, anamika said:

Jaime and Cersei - this show's true love story. Staying together through thick and thin. Came into this world together and left it together.

I really think that in the books, Jaime will kill Cersei, fulfilling the prophecy.

19 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

I had a terrible ridiculous idea that I must share because y'all will hate it.

It is ridiculous, but I like it.  I refuse to buy into the ending D&D are giving us, so I will take any other ending than that.

I was watching a sports show on TV today, and a woman commentator on there was asked how the episode was.  She talked about Green Bay Packers quarterback Aaron Rodgers being in a few scenes as a Lannister archer (he gets killed by dragonfire), but her overall comment was "I don't know how I feel about it all".  She knows the ending isn't right.

[jeansheridan]

But maybe that's why there will be some bizarre time thing. Maybe it all feels wrong because it is? Not my idea but some Three Eyed Raven action.

[Stallion12]

1 hour ago, Moxie Cat said:

It was definitely a brilliant move for those reasons - but I'm guessing that Dany will not be seen as brilliant. And, she could have pulled that same brilliant move - lucidly, with her whole team - at the beginning of season 7. Her plan to fly the 3 dragons to the Red Keep and just annihilate Cersei and the castle actually sounds pretty good, in retrospect.

And because I feel like griping: What was the point of Bran being able to alter history? Why the heck was it important that he affected Hodor? Why couldn't Hodor just be slow, full stop?

Unless there's some twist in the last episode, and we find out that Bran masterminded some past event to make the whole GOT story happen, I just don't understand why this was even a plot point. 

This is starting to remind me more and more of Lost, where at the end, you're saying "but what about THAT? And THAT? They never explained THAT!"

I feel this ending will have Martin avoiding pitch forks,  just like he feared in that interview. With how poorly the season is received, I just can't see the ending going over well, especially with d@d at the helm. Martin would have spent the time building it up much better.

[Stallion12]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

Actually they just blew up the whole Rhaegar - Lyanna stuff from the books with this ending. As per the show now, it was just an ordinary love affair and Rhaegar just eloped with Lyanna because he loved her and did not care about any of the consequences.

That vision Dany had in the books of Rhaegar looking at her and talking about the dragon having 3 heads, prince that was promised and song of ice and fire and all that ultimately meant nothing - because Rhaegar did not elope because of prophecy as per the show.

Rhaegar ran away for love and got KL sacked by Tywin and his goons the first time around and some 16-17 years later his son and sister fell in love and were involved in the sacking of KL again. And there's no meaning behind any of this. It just happened.

And as per the show, Dany was the ultimate antagonist. Not the zombies up North, Cersei, Joffrey, Ramsay. But Dany. And she became the ultimate series antagonist 30 minutes into the penultimate episode because of some bells. But she dies fighting for what she's always wanted.

There was no point to Bran's journey and anything he ever said or did except now apparently Tyrion is going to use him as a puppet ruler.

Sophie Turner did indeed spoil the ending with her tattoo all those months ago, though I am not sure if that was the right show quote to use considering the character she plays is a devious, backstabbing snake willing to throw family under the bus for personal gain. But she gets to rule the North like she always wanted.

Arya seems to have some semblance of a proper arc. She got to have some fun sexy times with a hot blacksmith, utilized her two season Braavos plot to take down the NK and now has given up on revenge. I used to want her to stay at WF, but now would rather she go off on adventures.

Jon's best story remains his time at the wall and with the wildlings. Fitting that he goes back there. Kit mentioned that he found Jon's ending satisfying - and after 3 seasons of terrible writing for the character, I agree. This is the only place he can end up.

Tyrion ends up in charge after bungling up things for everyone else. He can take over for Jon as the noble, good moron in charge of KL and puppet Bran with his dudebros on the council. He's qualified to do so in the books.

Jaime and Cersei - this show's true love story. Staying together through thick and thin. Came into this world together and left it together.

Poor Brienne. I hope she can go out on adventures with Pod or go back to Tarth rather than being stuck as Sansa's bodyguard because of her oaths to Catelyn.  She's a knight now. There's more she can do.

The problem with johns ending is as you already mention, his backstory is useless.  That reveal and buildup went no where. It would have been better if he wasn't her newphew.

[Stallion12]

1 hour ago, jeansheridan said:

I had a terrible ridiculous idea that I must share because y'all will hate it.

You know how Tyrion pulls up a chair to chat with Bran but we never hear the story? What if everything we have seen since that moment is Bran's story? One potential future. And Tyrion can change it. Not everything (let Arya do her stabby thing) but the rest. Keep Jon's secret, protect the second dragon and Missendrei, attack the city but not the whole slaughter. Heh. Oh people would be pissed but time travel of sorts has been introduced. I personally might love a revision. Sorry. Too much Avengers.

Compared to the ending we will get, I would love this, it's bad, but could fix the endings issues and would delete some of this season.

44 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

But maybe that's why there will be some bizarre time thing. Maybe it all feels wrong because it is? Not my idea but some Three Eyed Raven action.

We can hope. But it's doubtful. 

[rmontro]

1 hour ago, jeansheridan said:

But maybe that's why there will be some bizarre time thing. Maybe it all feels wrong because it is? Not my idea but some Three Eyed Raven action.

You're very optimistic, but it's not going to happen, unfortunately.  

I am starting a revolution, I am demanding an alternative ending.  They don't even have to film it or spend any money on it.  Just issue it in print along with an apology from those responsible for the TV ending.  And notice no smiley face here, I'm not kidding.

59 minutes ago, Stallion12 said:

I feel this ending will have Martin avoiding pitch forks,  just like he feared in that interview. With how poorly the season is received, I just can't see the ending going over well, especially with d@d at the helm. Martin would have spent the time building it up much better.

If this is the ending Martin decided on, I could see why he is reluctant to finish the books, or lacks the enthusiasm to do it.  

I hope this series at least ends the idea that killing off your main characters equates to good writing.  Walking Dead started that, I think.

[Detective005]

3 hours ago, anamika said:

Actually they just blew up the whole Rhaegar - Lyanna stuff from the books with this ending. As per the show now, it was just an ordinary love affair and Rhaegar just eloped with Lyanna because he loved her and did not care about any of the consequences.

That vision Dany had in the books of Rhaegar looking at her and talking about the dragon having 3 heads, prince that was promised and song of ice and fire and all that ultimately meant nothing - because Rhaegar did not elope because of prophecy as per the show.

Rhaegar ran away for love and got KL sacked by Tywin and his goons the first time around and some 16-17 years later his son and sister fell in love and were involved in the sacking of KL again. And there's no meaning behind any of this. It just happened.

And as per the show, Dany was the ultimate antagonist. Not the zombies up North, Cersei, Joffrey, Ramsay. But Dany. And she became the ultimate series antagonist 30 minutes into the penultimate episode because of some bells. But she dies fighting for what she's always wanted.

Jon's best story remains his time at the wall and with the wildlings. Fitting that he goes back there. Kit mentioned that he found Jon's ending satisfying - and after 3 seasons of terrible writing for the character, I agree. This is the only place he can end up.

Ok but that revelation seemed very huge at moment. We talk about the true heir of the iron throne, this is impossibile to forgot. Instead this information was used to divided jon and dany, using a bad script

[Coxfires]

3 hours ago, Stallion12 said:

The problem with johns ending is as you already mention, his backstory is useless.  That reveal and buildup went no where. It would have been better if he wasn't her newphew.

I wouldn't go that far, Jon lineage is useless to him, but for Deanerys it robs her of her legitimity which since Viserys died she was so sure of. It is a huge blow for her confidence, as she knows people will see her as not entitled to the throne but Jon, who on top of that has people sympathy. So yeah, it never was about Jon would be affected, it was about how she would be affected.

[anamika]

49 minutes ago, Coxfires said:

I wouldn't go that far, Jon lineage is useless to him, but for Deanerys it robs her of her legitimity which since Viserys died she was so sure of. It is a huge blow for her confidence, as she knows people will see her as not entitled to the throne but Jon, who on top of that has people sympathy. So yeah, it never was about Jon would be affected, it was about how she would be affected.

Jon's lineage should not be useless to him. The realization that his entire life was a big lie and that he is a Targaryen should not be useless to him. Arya's realizations that this brother she loved all her life is not a Stark should not be useless.

Hell, even Theon got more time to hash out his identity issues than Jon Snow did. On here we were wondering who was going to tell Jon that he was both a Targaryen and a Stark - no one did because the writers did not give a damn about the effect of this big secret on Jon Snow as a person. All he was allowed to do was be uncomfortable about incest sex. That's it.

As for Dany, in the books, she thinks that she would have married her nephew Aegon had he lived. Here however, she never even considers this despite saying last season that she was going to marry for alliances and Varys spouts some misogynistic bs about Dany being too strong for Jon.

None of what they wrote in the last two episodes make sense for the characters ON THE SHOW itself. Never mind the books.

I think this Tumblr post perfectly highlights how terribly they have written the characters and plots this season:

Quote

To be honest I think this episode’s left me a little punch drunk. I mean, over the years I’ve said a few things about characters on Game of Thrones dying from falling rocks, and you know what?

I was fucking kidding.

Imagine my surprise.

So in the long list of things I’ve been wrong about this season (it starts with “surely it can’t get much worse”) I was also wrong about Jaime Lannister having the arc of a yo-yo. To have the arc of a yo-yo one must actually have an arc. Now his story is complete we can see that it wasn’t actually much of a story. Vale Jaime Lannister - he looked at his accomplishments and the world beyond his incestuous relationship with his sister, said “naaaah, let’s stick with the incestuous relationship,” and died. The end.

Vale Cersei Lannister, who I don’t think actually did anything this season but provide an excuse for a terrible plot twist. Like Littlefinger last season, but with a better view. Lena Headey did act her socks off…but then you realise that the only reason the character was still around was so Lena Headey could act her socks off, and that is not how you write a story. Or at least it shouldn’t be how you write a story. Not to mention it’s a big old mishandling of GRRM’s preferred poisoned satisfaction for bad guy comeuppance - it’s not the viewer going “yikes at this and yikes at me for wishing it on them,” it’s “…you seriously expect me to feel bad about this? After she packed a city full of civilians as meat shields to protect her from the consequences of her actions?”

Vale Varys, who was quite neatly disposed of after he failed Intrigue 101 by openly approaching one of Dany’s actual loyalists with explosive information and an even more explosive treacherous proposal on a beach that can be seen from goddamned anywhere. You know Varys, honest to a fault. Cannot tell a lie. Far too honourable for the cutthroat world of King’s Landing - 

- hang on, wait, got him mixed up with show!Ned Stark. Easy mistake to make, I know. In any case, may he rest in peace, with every single eunuch joke Tyrion’s ever made.

Vale Qyburn, whose death was actually fitting, if rather abrupt. Vale Sandor, who actually found the time to tell Arya the point of her plot. Vale those guys in the golden armour, sure glad they showed up for the story.

But now we’ve dealt with the dead, let’s move on to the living.

It’s a pretty rough episode where the least bafflingly atrocious narrative decisions are Davos being willing to commit treason as a favour for Tyrion (remembering, as the writers do not seem to, that Tyrion gave the order that directly resulted in the death of Davos’ only son), and Arya having a last second epiphany over the nature of revenge. And yet this is what we’ve got to work with, folks. That’s the least bad.

Tyrion’s probably the next least bad. Oh, sure, he’s still a totally rational candidate for Westerosi canonisation,  but at least he’s consistently a totally rational candidate for Westerosi canonisation and the narrative bears out his saintly and self-sacrificing nature. Less so his intelligence, but he’s not exactly alone on that count. Anyone like his odds of surviving to the end of the season?

Tysha? Who’s Tysha? Did that have any sort of effect on Tyrion’s life?

Next, Jon. Poor, poor Jon. We keep getting told that he’s the bees knees, yet I watch him and I wonder that he can put his armour on the right way round. This is the second of two big setpiece battles this season in which he’s accomplished both jack and shit. Poor bastard just wandered around the set looking confused and occasionally sticking people with the pointy end. Objectives? Commands? Are those things you eat?

To be fair, he managed to get at least one effectual command out, right at the end of the episide. That’s one more than he managed during the Battle of the Bastards!

Speaking of the Battle of the Bastards, though, that reminds me about the other wonderful characterisation we saw: Sansa. Sansa leaked the information about Jon’s parentage to fuck with Dany, confirmed. After Jon asked her not to, knowing Jon’s in love with Dany, and knowing Jon has no interest in the throne. Aaaah, I love me a good story about family bonds helping people overcome adversity!

And now the main event: Daenerys and her campaign for the Iron Throne.

We’ll start with that fucking appalling military framing, hey? In which we got lots of shots of innocent white civilians, and then the emphasis on the scary foreigners invading. Just so we can be certain that Cersei was 100% correct in her racist and xenophobic scaremongering about a mad Targaryen overrunning Westerosi cities with those terrifying savages. And the narrative is validating the open racist…why…?

“Why?” is a question you’re going to see me ask a lot in this section of the review. Why didn’t Dany burn Euron’s fleet last episode, or, hell, last season? Why did Dany leave her strategic nous back in Meereen? Why is it that it’s romantic rejection that sends Dany over the edge (that and bells)? Why is it that Dany experiencing emotion that calls her leadership and her sanity into question, when similar emotional outbursts from male characters don’t end up with that result? Why did the writers look at seven solid years of this character coming down on the side of good even through battles with her own propensity for extreme actions and decide to yell “psych! Actually a villain!”

This was not helped by the fact that we’re not put in Dany’s shoes. Dany’s grief and impending madness is seen through the men around her. Dany doesn’t get a fucking line to explain why she started burning the city when she did, the way she did.

The biggest plot twist, undermining one of the most prominent characters in the entire series, and it amounts to “but wouldn’t it be cool if Dany turned evil?”

No. It’s not. It’s really not.

https://turtle-paced.tumblr.com/post/184846196637/thoughts-on-805

[Eyes High]

6 hours ago, anamika said:

Actually they just blew up the whole Rhaegar - Lyanna stuff from the books with this ending. As per the show now, it was just an ordinary love affair and Rhaegar just eloped with Lyanna because he loved her and did not care about any of the consequences.

That vision Dany had in the books of Rhaegar looking at her and talking about the dragon having 3 heads, prince that was promised and song of ice and fire and all that ultimately meant nothing - because Rhaegar did not elope because of prophecy as per the show.

Rhaegar ran away for love and got KL sacked by Tywin and his goons the first time around and some 16-17 years later his son and sister fell in love and were involved in the sacking of KL again. And there's no meaning behind any of this. It just happened.

And as per the show, Dany was the ultimate antagonist. Not the zombies up North, Cersei, Joffrey, Ramsay. But Dany. And she became the ultimate series antagonist 30 minutes into the penultimate episode because of some bells. But she dies fighting for what she's always wanted.

There was no point to Bran's journey and anything he ever said or did except now apparently Tyrion is going to use him as a puppet ruler.

Sophie Turner did indeed spoil the ending with her tattoo all those months ago, though I am not sure if that was the right show quote to use considering the character she plays is a devious, backstabbing snake willing to throw family under the bus for personal gain. But she gets to rule the North like she always wanted.

Arya seems to have some semblance of a proper arc. She got to have some fun sexy times with a hot blacksmith, utilized her two season Braavos plot to take down the NK and now has given up on revenge. I used to want her to stay at WF, but now would rather she go off on adventures.

Jon's best story remains his time at the wall and with the wildlings. Fitting that he goes back there. Kit mentioned that he found Jon's ending satisfying - and after 3 seasons of terrible writing for the character, I agree. This is the only place he can end up.

Tyrion ends up in charge after bungling up things for everyone else. He can take over for Jon as the noble, good moron in charge of KL and puppet Bran with his dudebros on the council. He's qualified to do so in the books.

Jaime and Cersei - this show's true love story. Staying together through thick and thin. Came into this world together and left it together.

Poor Brienne. I hope she can go out on adventures with Pod or go back to Tarth rather than being stuck as Sansa's bodyguard because of her oaths to Catelyn.  She's a knight now. There's more she can do.

Brienne being stuck as Sansa’s bodyguard is less depressing to me than her being knocked up with the bastard baby of a man who never loved her and who broke her heart, which is the other fan theory getting batted around for Brienne’s endgame, but’s that a pretty low bar in my opinion.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Eyes High

[MissLucas]

Brienne has one more option beyond the ruins of the wall - just saying.

[Coxfires]

@anamika: I agree completely that Jon lineage should have mattered in his storyline, I just disagreed that it was useless entirely. But everything else about how we should have seen him and his sisters cope with it, I am 100% with you. At a lesser level and because nobody cares about him but me, this is how I felt for Gendry learning who he was, not one second we got to see his character process it, and even worse when he was made a lord. This only served to remind us Arya is no lady by having him act completely OOC compared to how he was in S1 to S3.

Both guys with huge background used for someone else's storyline so far

[anamika]

16 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Brienne being stuck as Sansa’s bodyguard is less depressing to me than her being knocked up with the bastard baby of a man who never loved her and who broke her heart, which is the other fan theory getting batted around for Brienne’s endgame, but’s that a pretty low bar in my opinion.

I don't think Brienne is getting pregnant. D&D are going to stick her with their fave, being her bodyguard. At least they have something of a relationship this season and Sansa respected Brienne's relationship with Jaime more than she did her brother's relationship with Dany. So that's something.
 

[anamika]

People keep talking about that vision of Dany's with the Iron Throne in ashes in season 2 but let's recall that she does not touch the throne and instead hears a call and goes beyond the wall.  In the final season D&D turned the order around because they wanted to keep Lena Headey and Cersei around till the very end.

And if they had stuck to this order and what GRRM is heading toward which is most likely Dany getting rid rid of fAegon in a dance of dragons, sacking KL and sitting there as the queen of Ashes once Jon became KITN and went to her for help, then the underlying message of the series still stands.

And then Dany goes North for the final book and the war against the Others. Because even if the show destroyed the entire premise and message of the series, that’s not the story GRRM is trying to tell.  That's why characters like fAegon matter in the books.

GRRM’s characters are flawed and morally grey and do terrible things – but he does not consider these acts to make them nonredeemable.  His Tyrion rapes a sex slave in a brothel and as per the show  ends up being de facto ruler of the 7K.  His characters don't do evil things because some bells went off and it turns on some Targaryen genes for madness. Even Aerys II – the poster boy for Targ madness - went mad over years  - not in the span of 30 seconds. But apparently according to D&D’s nonsensical interviews Dany was mad right from the start when she was cold about her abusive brother being killed by Drogo.

I have noticed that this is a common thing in D&D’s commentaries. How Dany is cruel, merciless, without compassion, mad etc. because she does not show emotion. I remember the random comparison they made with Dany not crying over executing those two stranger Tarlys  and  compassionate Sansa crying over her mentor of 7 seasons when she executed LF. They have this idea that women who don't show emotion are somehow cruel and mad.

There was a post over at ASoIaF at how the showrunners venerate mothers in their writing pointing to David Nutter's explanation for Tyrion's bizzare trust in Cersei

Quote

Apparently, Tyrion wanted Cersei to “realize that she wasn’t a monster at all, that she was really, truly a mother.”

And considering that Dany is barren, D&D probably see her as even more of a monster than Cersei.

All this is also a complete disservice to GRRM's homage to the non-traditional women in his life growing up in the seventies with Arya and D&D then reducing Arya to a revenge obsessed psychopathic killer and giving over all her skillsets, plots and narrative themes to Sansa.

D&D have inherently sexist views about women and it just shows in their writing.

Dany dying on the show means that she dies in the books. But I am pretty sure she dies in the books fighting their ultimate antagonist - the Others beyond the wall. The books are called Ice and Fire for a reason - it signals the clash between Dany/Dragons (Fire) and the Others (Ice).

Edited May 14, 2019 by anamika

[Detective005]

48 minutes ago, anamika said:

Dany dying on the show means that she dies in the books. But I am pretty sure she dies in the books fighting their ultimate antagonist - the Others beyond the wall. The books are called Ice and Fire for a reason - it signals the clash between Dany/Dragons (Fire) and the Others (Ice).

In this case it would seem a heroic death

[SNeaker]

49 minutes ago, anamika said:

People keep talking about that vision of Dany's with the Iron Throne in ashes in season 2 but let's recall that she does not touch the throne and instead hears a call and goes beyond the wall.  In the final season D&D turned the order around because they wanted to keep Lena Headey and Cersei around till the very end.

And if they had stuck to this order and what GRRM is heading toward which is most likely Dany getting rid rid of fAegon in a dance of dragons, sacking KL and sitting there as the queen of Ashes once Jon became KITN and went to her for help, then the underlying message of the series still stands.

And then Dany goes North for the final book and the war against the Others. Because even if the show destroyed the entire premise and message of the series, that’s not the story GRRM is trying to tell.  That's why characters like fAegon matter in the books.

GRRM’s characters are flawed and morally grey and do terrible things – but he does not consider these acts to make them nonredeemable.  His Tyrion rapes a sex slave in a brothel and as per the show  ends up being de facto ruler of the 7K.  His characters don't do evil things because some bells went off and it turns on some Targaryen genes for madness. Even Aerys II – the poster boy for Targ madness - went mad over years  - not in the span of 30 seconds. But apparently according to D&D’s nonsensical interviews Dany was mad right from the start when she was cold about her abusive brother being killed by Drogo.

I have noticed that this is a common thing in D&D’s commentaries. How Dany is cruel, merciless, without compassion, mad etc. because she does not show emotion. I remember the random comparison they made with Dany not crying over executing those two stranger Tarlys  and  compassionate Sansa crying over her mentor of 7 seasons when she executed LF. They have this idea that women who don't show emotion are somehow cruel and mad.

There was a post over at ASoIaF at how the showrunners venerate mothers in their writing pointing to David Nutter's explanation for Tyrion's bizzare trust in Cersei

And considering that Dany is barren, D&D probably see her as even more of a monster than Cersei.

All this is also a complete disservice to GRRM's homage to the non-traditional women in his life growing up in the seventies with Arya and D&D then reducing Arya to a revenge obsessed psychopathic killer and giving over all her skillsets, plots and narrative themes to Sansa.

D&D have inherently sexist views about women and it just shows in their writing.

Dany dying on the show means that she dies in the books. But I am pretty sure she dies in the books fighting their ultimate antagonist - the Others beyond the wall. The books are called Ice and Fire for a reason - it signals the clash between Dany/Dragons (Fire) and the Others (Ice).

I think you make good points about the sexism and all that but I do think the books were going to end the same way — first the White Walkers then final villain Dany. Ice and Fire are the two threats coming to destroy Westeros.

I read the books having first watched the show, so I think in my mind I already had the television “hero edit” and especially “feminist icon” version of Dany in my head. The more I think about it, the more I see that this could make sense in the books.

On the show though it’s just sexist unearned garbage.

[anamika]

1 minute ago, SNeaker said:

I think you make good points about the sexism and all that but I do think the books were going to end the same way — first the White Walkers then final villain Dany. Ice and Fire are the two threats coming to destroy Westeros.

I will have to disagree here. Making Dany the final villain would have the same message that the show has right now - political squabbles and infighting is more important than this is existential threat (Climate change) that threatens mankind. And I really don't think that this is GRRM's moral of his story.

I think his Fire and Ice are meant to clash with each other and destroy each other.

5 minutes ago, Detective005 said:

In this case it would seem a heroic death

Why not? As I said, Book Tyrion rapes a slave because she does not want to sleep with him. He wants to rape and murder Cersei. Would you call him a hero? GRRM has referred to him as a villain in the books.

On the show he is most definitely a hero - good, kind, smart, cares about the well being of the people, wants to save his sister because she's a mother, is celibate and mourning his lost loves, has a hero's journey from underdog to ruler of the 7K.

So if Tyrion can be a hero on the show, cannot Dany be a hero in the books?

[SNeaker]

2 minutes ago, anamika said:

I will have to disagree here. Making Dany the final villain would have the same message that the show has right now - political squabbles and infighting is more important than this is existential threat (Climate change) that threatens mankind. And I really don't think that this is GRRM's moral of his story.

I think his Fire and Ice are meant to clash with each other and destroy each other.

To me the book titles planned of "Winds of Winter" followed by "Dream of Spring" also indicate winter and the others will be dealt with first. He's talked about his obsession with the scouring of the shire and what happens after you save the world.

I always imagined that everything would come together too in one big epic showdown, but the more I'm reading up on it lately the more I'm getting the sense that the very bare bones of this is true to the books.

[stagmania]

The thing I keep coming back to re: this ending for Dany is how entirely not subversive it is. A powerful woman becoming hysterical and losing her mind (especially over issues of motherhood and love) is a classic trope and about as conventional as it gets, especially when paired with the orphan boy with the destiny being the one to save the realm from her. It’s hard to fathom that this is really GRRM’s big subvert-the-genre ending. Or maybe it’s not, because I don’t expect many older white male writers have enough awareness to avoid this kind of misogyny in their storytelling. 

[Raachel2008]

I think this is GRRM’s ending, maybe out of order; they would have never have Dany killing children and women and men on screen of it was not in the books. It is such a George thing to show the horrors of war. 

Jon’s heritage had one sole purpose: to make Dany paranoid and even more obsessed with her “birthright”. Nothing more. It is probably one of my biggest problems with this season: how we didn’t have ONE single meaningful scene about that.

1 minute ago, stagmania said:

The thing I keep coming back to re: this ending for Dany is how entirely not subversive it is. A powerful woman becoming hysterical and losing her mind (especially over issues of motherhood and love) is a classic trope and about as conventional as it gets, especially when paired with the orphan boy with the destiny being the one to save the realm from her. It’s hard to fathom that this is really GRRM’s big subvert-the-genre ending. Or maybe it’s not, because I don’t expect many older white male writers have enough awareness to avoid this kind of misogyny in their storytelling. 

You say she was hysterical and lost her mind, I say she knew exactly what she was doing. She said so: “Let it be fear”.

[stagmania]

1 minute ago, Raachel2008 said:

You say she was hysterical and lost her mind, I say she knew exactly what she was doing. She said so: “Let it be fear”.

They literally showed her going crazy and deciding to burn everyone after the bells rang. You can tell yourself that’s not what happened if it makes you feel better, but it’s what the show depicted.

[Eyes High]

25 minutes ago, anamika said:

I will have to disagree here. Making Dany the final villain would have the same message that the show has right now - political squabbles and infighting is more important than this is existential threat (Climate change) that threatens mankind. And I really don't think that this is GRRM's moral of his story.

I think his Fire and Ice are meant to clash with each other and destroy each other.

Why not? As I said, Book Tyrion rapes a slave because she does not want to sleep with him. He wants to rape and murder Cersei. Would you call him a hero? GRRM has referred to him as a villain in the books.

On the show he is most definitely a hero - good, kind, smart, cares about the well being of the people, wants to save his sister because she's a mother, is celibate and mourning his lost loves, has a hero's journey from underdog to ruler of the 7K.

So if Tyrion can be a hero on the show, cannot Dany be a hero in the books?

If D&D knew from very early on that Tyrion was going to end up as the endgame ruler for all intents and purposes, that probably explains the straightforwardly heroic way he was written in the show. 

Jon pulling an Aemon and taking the black for much the same reasons (so that no one could ever try to force him to claim the throne or make use of his claim) makes a lot of sense to me. He would be protecting Bran as well. And the NW probably isn’t the worst gig in the world anymore with the WW threat eliminated and with Jon having great relations with the wildlings.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Eyes High

[screamin]

11 minutes ago, stagmania said:

They literally showed her going crazy and deciding to burn everyone after the bells rang. You can tell yourself that’s not what happened if it makes you feel better, but it’s what the show depicted.

I don't think she's supposed to be 'insane.' I expect she'll have an explanation that won't be stereotypical Hollywood "the voices told me to do it." It will be a hard-nosed, cold explanation that the city had to pay for its refusal to surrender to her, that Aegon the Conquerer had done the same to Harrenhal and made sure that every kingdom he took thereafter surrendered bloodlessly. And she'll challenge Jon to make good on his vow that she was his queen and accept her decision meekly.

I still think that Jon won't stab her in the back - or the front, for that matter. I think it would be more characteristic of Jon to kill Drogon and even the odds. But I've been wrong many, many times before.

Edited May 14, 2019 by screamin

[BadAssRobinArryn]

15 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

I think this is GRRM’s ending, maybe out of order; they would have never have Dany killing children and women and men on screen of it was not in the books. It is such a George thing to show the horrors of war.  

I completely agree. I don't think D&D would ever have come up this ending at all. It seems totally GRRM. Not to mention that it was him who wrote the episode with Bran's visions, where Bran saw a Dragon flying over King's Landing.

[sunnyface]

Quote

And then Dany goes North for the final book and the war against the Others. Because even if the show destroyed the entire premise and message of the series, that’s not story GRRM is trying to tell.  That's why characters like fAegon matter in the books.

Any reason as to why Dany can't find another dragon egg or two?

[stagmania]

7 minutes ago, screamin said:

I don't think she's supposed to be 'insane.' I expect she'll have an explanation that won't be stereotypical Hollywood "the voices told me to do it." It will be a hard-nosed, cold explanation that the city had to pay for its refusal to surrender to her, that Aegon the Conquerer had done the same to Harrenhal and made sure that every kingdom he took thereafter surrendered bloodlessly.

Yeah I’m not seeing the contradiction here. Of course she’s not going to say “yo, I went crazy.” She’s going to have some rationalization for it, but the entire frame that the show has given us is that she was emotionally wounded and distraught to the point where just winning wasn’t enough. That’s why it matters that she went ham on innocents after the bells of surrender were already rung - she decided in that moment that she wasn’t satisfied, and she was going to take out her anger and desire for revenge on the civilians of KL.

[screamin]

36 minutes ago, stagmania said:

Yeah I’m not seeing the contradiction here. Of course she’s not going to say “yo, I went crazy.” She’s going to have some rationalization for it, but the entire frame that the show has given us is that she was emotionally wounded and distraught to the point where just winning wasn’t enough. That’s why it matters that she went ham on innocents after the bells of surrender were already rung - she decided in that moment that she wasn’t satisfied, and she was going to take out her anger and desire for revenge on the civilians of KL.

That doesn't sound to me like 'going crazy.' A decision made to indulge anger isn't necessarily 'crazy'. Otherwise there would be a lot more murderers going free on insanity pleas than there are.