S18.E19: Conversion

[Tara Ariano]

Quote

A young woman is raped by a member of her church group, and Barba builds a case arguing that the First Amendment doesn't entitle a person to break the law.

[amsomething]

SVU is back!  Kevin and Brendan did a phenomenal job with this episode.  The real Benson was back, some of the lines were vomit-inducing (but in a good way!), and the plot was interesting. This was one of the best episodes of the season.

[Laurie4H]

I thought it was terrible.  I'm not even remotely religious and I felt the political message was heavy handed in making Christian's seem like delusional fanatics.  

Edited May 18, 2017 by Laurie4H

[Gigglepuff]

I liked Fin's line about delegating. The rest of it was pretty bad, cliche filled and very heavy-handed. 

[dttruman]

It seems like they forced this plot by using the (or this) church beliefs, that forced fornication is considered acceptable. Using a lesbian as the "victim" was another convenient choice to make a social message. Apparently they are trying to insinuate that the (or this) church will go to almost any lengths to prevent a member of their flock from becoming gay or a lesbian.

Almost all churches will probably just not associate with a gay or lesbian or at worse, tell them "They are going to hell for their sins".  In fact most churches would call the beliefs of "this church" totally convoluted and immoral. It just seem like the writers were indirectly condemning Christian religion in it's entirety, otherwise they would have given this church some funky name. In the same way they use the convenient  "Hudson University" when there is a rape at a place of higher learning.

I hate to be nitpicky again, but wasn't Benson advising Barba on how to conduct his prosecution. And why was Carisi, Rollins, and (our ever present) Benson getting involved with the lawyers sit-down near the end?

Edited May 18, 2017 by dttruman

[Cotypubby]

19 minutes ago, Laurie4H said:

I thought it was terrible.  I'm not even remotely religious and I felt the political message was heavy handed in making Christian's seem like delusional fanatics.  

They made delusional fanatics seem like delusional fanatics. They were very clear in showing that other Christians (Carissi, Benson) knew they were wackos and were not part of the mainstream.

Finally a good episode this season! Something that wasn't rich white businessman says, young pretty white girl says!

I don't know why Barba thought he lost the jury though. Come on, there is no way a NYC jury would acquit someone who claimed rape was part of his religious beliefs in order to "cure" homosexuality.

(eta: at least, not now in 2017. I don't know if such a thing has ever happened in the past.)

Edited May 18, 2017 by Cotypubby

[dttruman]

21 minutes ago, Laurie4H said:

I thought it was terrible.  I'm not even remotely religious and I felt the political message was heavy handed in making Christian's seem like delusional fanatics.  

I agree, they seem to show or infer that Indiana has some very radical churches.

[The Wild Sow]

Coulda cast someone as the reparative fornicator, er, rapist -- who doesn't actually play a prominent gay  character on another series!

I mean, I don't have the world's greatest gaydar, and mine was pinging for Lucas all night long.  So his coming out was no surprise!

[Joimiaroxeu]

I can't remember the last time my head exploded while watching an episode of SVU. As if so-called gay conversion therapy isn't horrific enough, "curative intercourse"? Marvin Gaye would be spinning in his grave if he hadn't been cremated.

Quote

I felt the political message was heavy handed in making Christian's seem like delusional fanatics.

I felt they were making this particular group of Christians seem like delusional fanatics. I think it's widely understood that mainstream Christians generally don't condone rape. And trying to claim it as a 1st Amendment right (or a legal right at all) is IMO plain scary and insane.

Edited May 18, 2017 by Joimiaroxeu

[watcher1006]

1 hour ago, dttruman said:

I agree, they seem to show or infer that Indiana has some very radical churches.

Culture wars, U.S.A. Or a caricature about them. The Indiana people kept expressing their contempt for New York and its people not understanding their values.

1 hour ago, The Wild Sow said:

Coulda cast someone as the reparative fornicator, er, rapist -- who doesn't actually play a prominent gay  character on another series!

I mean, I don't have the world's greatest gaydar, and mine was pinging for Lucas all night long.  So his coming out was no surprise!

Yup, I wasn't familiar with the actor but that felt too much like L&O SVU twists they've done before and it wasn't a surprise to me either. It was also pretty clear from the beginning that the Reverend was going to be a bad guy, very possibly THE bad guy, because once again that's how predictable much of this show's writing has become.

Edited May 18, 2017 by watcher1006
Corrected typo

[Snookums]

This is more in line with the SVU I know. The case was messy but in an interesting way and there wasn't really a mustache twirling villain--the messed up minister  took the deal (Loved Rollins and Carisi exchanging "OMG he actually went for it" glances.)

Liv wasn't written too St. Benson either this episode. The only really funny part was when she was hugging Anne and still trying to hold up that enormous umbrella one-handed. Oh, and Finn delegating distasteful chores and his "bitch WHAT" look at Lucas's "filled with God's glory" recitation.

This ep was a good example of what can happen when any group tries to shut out the world and thinks hiding from reality is fulfilling God's will. Both Anne and Lucas were damaged--in Lucas's case I'd even argue ruined-- by a man who honestly thought preaching such a perversion of a holy message was helping his congregants. The show didn't take the easy way out and make him a molester or pornographer; he honestly thought narrowing down his viewpoint to a pinhole made him right, and his congregants safe. And all the while the demons they're so afraid of--homosexuality, New York, becoming a freaking adult--were luring them to commit a sin; just not the one they thought they had to watch out for.

Edited May 18, 2017 by Snookums

[SerenityInSpace]

2 hours ago, Laurie4H said:

I thought it was terrible.  I'm not even remotely religious and I felt the political message was heavy handed in making Christian's seem like delusional fanatics.  

What made you think that? We all know that some religious people can do terrible things in the name of their God. Showing that on TV doesn't automatically mean damning every religious person.

[skittl3862]

4 hours ago, The Wild Sow said:

Coulda cast someone as the reparative fornicator, er, rapist -- who doesn't actually play a prominent gay  character on another series!

I mean, I don't have the world's greatest gaydar, and mine was pinging for Lucas all night long.  So his coming out was no surprise!

Fun fact: Lucas was played by Casey Cott, who is the younger brother of Corey Cott, who played the rapist in Rape Interrupted.

I know corrective rape is a real thing, but in places like Africa and the Caribbean, not white evangelical communities in America. I don't understand why a religious group this backwards and brainwashed would travel to NY in the first place. They should be living in a commune and not watching TV, and wearing long dresses with collars up to their neckline (I see you, Anne's mom with your shirt unbuttoned to your sternum! Shameful harlot!) Even the Duggars are more worldly than these people are portrayed.

The "twist" of discovering all the other boys being paid for rape is so implausible. How many gay kids can there be in a single church in small town Indiana?

Benson curing Anne's internalized homophobia in a single conversation was a little much. I know it's a 41 minute episode, but one brief exchange undoing years of psychological abuse from her family and church was a bit of a leap. It's not the most egregious of Benson from this season, but it made me roll my eyes. I'm also uncertain how they continued to pursue the case even after Anne told her she didn't want to press charges. They can't charge Lucas and go to trial without a victim.

The final scene with Anne and Lucas was good. It sounded like it was from the perspective of someone like Anne as a young religious person coming to terms with her sexuality. Usually SVU takes these conclusion scenes and gives the victim of the week dialogue that sounds like it was written by Olivia Benson herself- just super liberal, feminist, enlightened and not at all appropriate for a young girl from the Midwest who was in a religious cult until 5 minutes ago.

"Church girl? You must be a virgin." Oy. SVU can't even write a believable shitty pickup line.

Edited May 18, 2017 by skittl3862

[dttruman]

5 hours ago, SerenityInSpace said:

What made you think that? We all know that some religious people can do terrible things in the name of their God. Showing that on TV doesn't automatically mean damning every religious person.

I thought they were damning all Christian religion, because they never mentioned the church name. If they would have come up with a fake name, then it would of shown that it was some extreme religious group. They should have called it "Church of the SVU Writers".

[dttruman]

2 hours ago, skittl3862 said:

Fun fact: Lucas was played by Casey Cott, who is the younger brother of Corey Cott, who played the rapist in Rape Interrupted.

I know corrective rape is a real thing, but in places like Africa and the Caribbean, not white evangelical communities in America. I don't understand why a religious group this backwards and brainwashed would travel to NY in the first place. They should be living in a commune and not watching TV, and wearing long dresses with collars up to their neckline (I see you, Anne's mom with your shirt unbuttoned to your sternum! Shameful harlot!) Even the Duggars are more worldly than these people are portrayed.

The "twist" of discovering all the other boys being paid for rape is so implausible. How many gay kids can there be in a single church in small town Indiana?

Benson curing Anne's internalized homophobia in a single conversation was a little much. I know it's a 41 minute episode, but one brief exchange undoing years of psychological abuse from her family and church was a bit of a leap. It's not the most egregious of Benson from this season, but it made me roll my eyes. I'm also uncertain how they continued to pursue the case even after Anne told her she didn't want to press charges. They can't charge Lucas and go to trial without a victim.

The final scene with Anne and Lucas was good. It sounded like it was from the perspective of someone like Anne as a young religious person coming to terms with her sexuality. Usually SVU takes these conclusion scenes and gives the victim of the week dialogue that sounds like it was written by Olivia Benson herself- just super liberal, feminist, enlightened and not at all appropriate for a young girl from the Midwest who was in a religious cult until 5 minutes ago.

"Church girl? You must be a virgin." Oy. SVU can't even write a believable shitty pickup line.

I agree, it seems like the writers are using it as "standard operating procedure" now, where Benson convinces any reluctant victim or witness to testify. First she tells Barba how to prosecute his cases, now she giving everyone pep-talks.

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, skittl3862 said:

. . . I know corrective rape is a real thing, but in places like Africa and the Caribbean, not white evangelical communities in America. . . .

Is this common knowledge?? I could've used a line of exposition like this from Finn or Munch (if he was still on the show).

 

20 minutes ago, dttruman said:

I thought they were damning all Christian religion, because they never mentioned the church name. If they would have come up with a fake name, then it would [have] shown that it was some extreme religious group. They should have called it "Church of the SVU Writers".

Heh. I didn't think for a minute that this group was representative of any mainstream belief system, but based on the responses here, giving them a unique name might have made that clear.

[wknt3]

The Good:

The opening. It was nice to see an actual teaser that didn't give the whole plot away and introduced the characters without telling us everything about them.
Fin! Loved his line about delegating. And he had some other good snark as well.
Solid acting from the perp and her friend/evil temptress Jezebel.
They let Carisi get the confession. I wish they gone all the way and let Fin or Carisi be the one to establish a relationship with the victim given that they have a more obvious connection, but I guess that's a bridge too far.
Halfway decent Barba material. It was inconsistent, but after the return of full on pod Barba it was nice to see them trying.

The Bad:

Uninspired writing on the legal side. Not a single wisecrack from any of the judges??? I mean imagine what the mothership would have done with a setup like "the ultimate judge"?! And the rest of the legal arguments were clunky and weak as well. I know it's been a weak point all season, but it was really obvious and disappointing this week since it was the crux of the show.
Could they make the "shocking twists" any more obvious?
While this was a bit of a change there were still too many of this seasons' stock elements. The whole squad in court. The reluctant victim Liv browbeats into testifying. The documentation of them stating that yeah they kinda sorta consented maybe. There is a difference between a formula and doing the same damn episode every week!

Overall this was an improvement over last week, although anything except maybe a re-run of "Imposter" would have been. Although when I said it made me long for Season 10 or 11 that was meant to be wry and ironic show. If you are going to grant my requests why not the ones about toning down the Benson worship or giving us a nice old fashioned serial sex killer? It was a good idea, poorly executed. Something a little bit different from the endless repetition of the same plot forced into the same mold as just about every episode this season. It did have it's moments though. And it does fit with this season's theme of wasted potential. On to next week - let's get this season over with and hope they can reboot and give us something more like the first half of last season!
 

[Primetimer]

Curative intercourse and conversion therapy get the PSA treatment.

View the full article

[milner]

I wish someone had asked the "reverend " for a least one biblical reference to curative intetcourse.  It's just another ex of male dominated religions coming up with ways to use women   Like old men with multiple much younger 'wives'.  Just show me one quote. Finally rape because you are delusional is not ok.

[justjen]

The minute Kip Pardue looms blandly into the frame, you know he did something. Ditto Riverdale's Casey Cott as Lucas.


Sooo...I accidentally read the Article before watching the show (the plan is for Friday night), but when I read the above sentences I realized that I'm officially Old because my head automatically assumed, from the first sentence, that Kip Pardue was obviously the one playing Lucas.

Glad to see no mention of Olivia acting rookie this week...looking forward to actually watching!

[slowpoked]

13 hours ago, Cotypubby said:

I don't know why Barba thought he lost the jury though. Come on, there is no way a NYC jury would acquit someone who claimed rape was part of his religious beliefs in order to "cure" homosexuality.

I was curious as to why Barba didn't bring up "What if the boy is the homosexual one? how do you 'correct' them?" argument during the early part of the trial to prove that the religion is just using God to justify rape of young girls. But I guess they didn't because of the "twist" later on that Luke himself needs to be "cured". 

[skittl3862]

5 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Is this common knowledge?? I could've used a line of exposition like this from Finn or Munch (if he was still on the show).

Yeah, I'm surprised that the show didn't mention it in passing. I've heard a lot about cases in South Africa specifically. It was also confusing because they kept referring to it as "curative rape", which is a term I've never heard. It's called corrective rape. Like, if you google the term curative rape, the first result is the Wikipedia article for corrective rape. So I'm not sure why the SVU writers didn't use the more commonly used term.

 

28 minutes ago, milner said:

I wish someone had asked the "reverend " for a least one biblical reference to curative intetcourse.  It's just another ex of male dominated religions coming up with ways to use women   Like old men with multiple much younger 'wives'.  Just show me one quote. Finally rape because you are delusional is not ok.

I thought the same thing. Most extreme Christian sects still have some sort of Biblical basis. Like the fundamentalist Mormons and their 30 brides: David and Solomon both had hundreds of wives, so polygamy is in the Bible, or the Quiverfull people, who literally get their name from the verse about men who have tons of kids being blessed. Even the Handmaid's Tale has a Bible passage about Jacob to back that whole practice.

No one on the show challenged them to prove this was part of their religious doctrine at all- which should have been a central aspect of their "First Amendment religious freedom" case in the courtroom. Provide some proof that this was a central belief in their religion. All they had was the reverend- who was involved with the crime- talking out of his ass about homosexuality being a sin. They don't have a Bible verse about fixing gays using sex? A pamphlet? An example of a sermon given to their congregation? It was such a shoddy legal defense that Barba should have been able to have their "First Amendment" excuse thrown out before it even went to trial.

[gesundheit]

  17 hours ago, Laurie4H said:

I thought it was terrible.  I'm not even remotely religious and I felt the political message was heavy handed in making Christian's seem like delusional fanatics.  

They made delusional fanatics seem like delusional fanatics. They were very clear in showing that other Christians (Carissi, Benson) knew they were wackos and were not part of the mainstream.

Finally a good episode this season! Something that wasn't rich white businessman says, young pretty white girl says!

I don't know why Barba thought he lost the jury though. Come on, there is no way a NYC jury would acquit someone who claimed rape was part of his religious beliefs in order to "cure" homosexuality.

(eta: at least, not now in 2017. I don't know if such a thing has ever happened in the past.)

You're right, they definitely went out of their way to show counter-examples of Christians who think this is heinous. That was appreciated. Not only that, but by the end they showed that the victim both accepted her sexual orientation AND maintained her faith as her guide.


It wasn't an amazing episode but one heck of an improvement over the last dozen or so.

[25thID]

All in all, this episode was lukewarm. I think we're being trolled; the writers keep giving us mediocre to bad episodes so we get used to it, so they can continue to slack. Last weeks' episode, along with this weeks' had some pretty good ideas, but just fell flat. There was little to no development of the story or characters- it has been hard to get into any episode so far this season. I should know better than to get my hopes up when there is an interesting premise.

Like a few posters have said, it would have bolstered the defense if maybe there was a Bible verse, a web seminar/real life seminar, a web broadcast of a sermon, ANYTHING to back up the Pastor. Don't get me wrong, I am not on their side, but it was weak. I also think that St. Benson gave probably the best sermon the victim has ever heard- I was waiting for a choir to start humming in the background and then start singing the praises of our Lord and Savior, St. Benson, then have dozens of white doves released as the two hugged.

[fivestone]

Annoying episode, but the casting for Ann was spot-on.

[wknt3]

On 5/17/2017 at 10:33 PM, Laurie4H said:

I thought it was terrible.  I'm not even remotely religious and I felt the political message was heavy handed in making Christian's seem like delusional fanatics.  

I thought they were pretty explicit that this wasn't all Christians or even all evangelical Christians. They even had Liv the epitome of all that is good and true saying that she was a believer and was against this. I mean the writing wasn't exactly subtle, but the anvils being dropped on our head included some saying this wasn't real Christianity.

On 5/17/2017 at 10:59 PM, dttruman said:

I agree, they seem to show or infer that Indiana has some very radical churches.

It does. As does Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Connecticut.... What would have been a good choice? They wanted a conservative flyover state that wasn't close enough to NYC to make you wonder why they weren't traveling there but not so far away that it wasn't one of the most logical destinations for tourism and running away too. Maybe they were inspired by something or someone in particular, but again pick any state and you can find something.

23 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Is this common knowledge?? I could've used a line of exposition like this from Finn or Munch (if he was still on the show).

Yeah. Add to the list of things of SVU elements I never thought I would miss the exposition dumps where a character would happen to know all about the issue of the week including a couple of statistics. I mean since they seemed to be going for a (later seasons) Neal Baer vibe anyways, why not? And if they had Fin explaining about how it wasn't too common here, but was much more common in Africa etc. followed by everyone looking at him wondering how he was so informed on the subject and him responding "Don't look at me, I just know stuff" I would have forgiven the writers for just about the entire season.

Edited May 19, 2017 by wknt3
autocorrect fail.

[CelticBlackCat]

Did anyone else notice?  When Ann opened her hotel room door for the unknown visitor, the door said Hudson Suite.

[Xeliou66]

This was one of SVU's better episodes of the season, I think because it was something different, not the usual rich and famous he said-she said, and it was better written. 

I see it has pissed off some of the religious people, and that's to be expected, but this episode was right on about what religion can be used to justify. There are plenty of lunatic preachers like Gary in this episode, and they can get a cult following and almost have a brainwashing hold on people, and I didn't find anything about it unbelievable, religion has been used to justify all kinds of things, Barba basically said as much, and religion has almost certainly been responsible for more violence than anything else in world history IMO. And the episode certainly did not portray all Christians as rape supporting loons, both Benson and Carisi are Christians and they certainly think rape is evil, and the victim at the end still seemed to have faith despite what she had been through, so I thought the episode was very balanced in its portrayal of Christians. 

As for the Reverand Gary having all those kids he took in, I have a feeling he made a lot of "missionary" trips out of state and accepted kids from all around. 

I wonder if they chose Indiana because that is the state that gave us Mike Pence and also the Senate candidate a few years ago that said God wants women to get pregnant by rape ( not trying to start a political fight here, I'm just commenting on why they chose Indiana and the fact that that state has had some religious loons in it ) 

This episode let every character get screen time, we got a lot of Fin which was good, he was in one of his best forms all season, Carisi and Rollins as well, it wasn't all Olivia, and Olivia didn't annoy me in this one, she wasn't bullying anyone and MH's acting wasn't over the top or cringeworthy. Barba got a big role which was nice as well.

About the courtroom, I think Barba would've gotten the conviction, he was doing a good job, but the case reminded me of the line that Arthur Branch had in the episode Abomination, where the homophobic professor tried a gay panic defense for killing his son's boyfriend, that feelings can mean more than facts and if you got one homophobe on the jury it could poison the whole jury and result in a mistrial. I think that it's a similar situation in this episode.  

The ending scene between the victim and the guy who had been brainwashed into raping her was actually well written, it didn't seem like a feminist PSA message like so many endings have been, it certainly wasn't so clear and was much better written. At the end I was unsure whether I despised or felt sympathy for Lucas, I think some of both. His actions were despicable as was his bigotry, but he had been brainwashed by that piece of shit Gary for a long time so in some ways he was a victim as well. And I liked how they left it ambiguous as to whether he realized what he had done was wrong at the end and felt remorse, or if he was still under the delusion that he had done something good. 

Overall a pretty good episode, mainly because it used everyone and it was different from the worn out stereotypical cases that we've mainly seen in season 18. Next weeks season finale looks good, hopefully we will end the season on a high note. 

[Redskinsfan]

I thought it was pretty good too it also sad to see how some people think. That Minister Gary was sick. i'm not sure how I felt about Lucas at the end either. Ann's parents were ignorant too.

[SerenityInSpace]

20 hours ago, dttruman said:

I thought they were damning all Christian religion, because they never mentioned the church name. If they would have come up with a fake name, then it would of shown that it was some extreme religious group. They should have called it "Church of the SVU Writers".

Why were the damning all Christians for not mentioning the church name? I know that the show has been a bit stupid recently, but surely no one is going to think that the writers are quite stupid enough to accuse billions of Christians of believing that rape cures gay people. Even Liv jumped in to defend God and tbh, I didn't think she was religious at all. Maybe she's referenced her faith before, but I can't remember.

 

On 2017-5-18 at 3:51 AM, Cotypubby said:

I don't know why Barba thought he lost the jury though. Come on, there is no way a NYC jury would acquit someone who claimed rape was part of his religious beliefs in order to "cure" homosexuality.

(eta: at least, not now in 2017. I don't know if such a thing has ever happened in the past.)

I know. That made me question how little Barba and Benson think of a jury. They thought them sick/stupid enough to excuse rape, because the rapist thinks God is ok with it?

Edited May 19, 2017 by SerenityInSpace
multiquote went a little wrong

[JyDanzig]

Regarding the question of if the show was trashing Christians with this ep...

I don't think that was the intent, but I can't deny I felt that during the show.  But I think it's a side effect of lazy writing.  They didn't develop the logic of this church worldview enough, they just slapped this extreme view onto these characters that were otherwise "Generic Religious Goody Two Shoes."  As someone else remarked, there needed to be some additional cult-y details about them or something, both to differentiate them from mainstream Christians and to make them feel like more fully imagined humans.

On 5/17/2017 at 10:12 PM, Snookums said:

The only really funny part was when she was hugging Anne and still trying to hold up that enormous umbrella one-handed.

You're not kidding on that one.  The way it was swinging back and fourth!  How did the director not get another take where it was held still?  Just have some crewperson hold it from just off-camera for the close-up!

[sockii]

3 hours ago, JyDanzig said:

Regarding the question of if the show was trashing Christians with this ep...

I don't think that was the intent, but I can't deny I felt that during the show.  But I think it's a side effect of lazy writing.  They didn't develop the logic of this church worldview enough, they just slapped this extreme view onto these characters that were otherwise "Generic Religious Goody Two Shoes."  As someone else remarked, there needed to be some additional cult-y details about them or something, both to differentiate them from mainstream Christians and to make them feel like more fully imagined humans.

I felt pretty similarly about it, and I'm not overly religious myself (just a non-practicing Episcopalian.) Like someone mentioned up thread, I think it would have been better served to bring up corrective rape in relation to the countries where it has become seriously problematic -- or at least make mention of it being a global problem, not just an issue of this one unidentified Christian group. And I'm tired of the show having that One Catholic Character who is always treated/looked to as the expert on all things Christianity when...no. (Then again the show has always had that tendency in a lot of ways. Situation involving a Jewish victim or perp, whether secular or very Orthodox? Call in Munch! And pretty much the only time we ever saw Fin leading a case was when the victim was African or African-American...)

I think my main problem with the set-up here was, did they ever even explain why this group was visiting New York to begin with? The whole initial scene in Times Square with all the stereotypes of the "evil liberal immoral city" was just laughable...and I can't see a mid-western "conservative values" group making a trip to NYC unless it was a) to engage in some sort of political/religious protest (which could have made for an interesting set-up), b) some kind of national convention (which, I doubt would be held in NYC to begin with), or c) some kind of group "rumspringa" meant specifically to expose the youth to the immoralities and temptations of the world.)

[Gigglepuff]

1 hour ago, sockii said:

Like someone mentioned up thread, I think it would have been better served to bring up corrective rape in relation to the countries where it has become seriously problematic -- or at least make mention of it being a global problem, not just an issue of this one unidentified Christian group.

This show blew the opportunity to educate its viewing audience on the realities of corrective rape with this episode. Once again, the victim is a pretty, young white woman. Corrective rape is a huge issue in countries like India, South Africa, and Zimbabwe, and the victims are both female and male. SVU used to tackle global issues, why can't they now? It was a good subject matter to be explored, but then they went "cheap" with it. Seriously, they couldn't have changed the plot just a bit and made it perhaps about visitors from another country or perhaps a recent immigrant? I live in an area, (in Canada) where GLBTQ asylum seekers who have experienced corrective rape and other torture are crossing the border EVERY day from the US into Canada. These are the people whose stories need to be told on a show like SVU ffs, not just the standard, pretty white girl. As much as this show claims that it speaks for victims and survivors, from what we've seen this season (and in the last few seasons), it only matters if you're young, white, female and attractive. 

 

Also, can anyone tell me why the hell Fin is left to man the precinct on his own? Why are Benson, Rollins, and Carisi sitting around in court all day? What are they doing there? Makes no sense.  

[dttruman]

6 hours ago, SerenityInSpace said:

Why were the damning all Christians for not mentioning the church name? I know that the show has been a bit stupid recently, but surely no one is going to think that the writers are quite stupid enough to accuse billions of Christians of believing that rape cures gay people. Even Liv jumped in to defend God and tbh, I didn't think she was religious at all. Maybe she's referenced her faith before, but I can't remember.

 

I know. That made me question how little Barba and Benson think of a jury. They thought them sick/stupid enough to excuse rape, because the rapist thinks God is ok with it?

I think that is why this is a terribly thought out plot line. They expect us to take for granted that Indiana's Christian churches condone this, that a New York jury would too, and that Benson's and Barba's level headed thinking would prevail over all.

Another story that describes this type of plot is that the writers tell us that 2+2 = 5. The writers expect everyone to believe it except (in this case) Benson,Barba, an the rest  of SVU. They believe that 2+2 = 4.

[QueenMab]

The detectives sit in court all day because their contracts say they all get a certain amount of screen time so they shove them into court sitting like "choirboys" to get it. That's why it never makes sense. And since when did Olivia Benson become an expert on God and Christianity? 18 years I've watched that character state repeatedly she "didn't know", didn't really "believe" in God, wasn't raised in any faith and didn't really have any. As recent as what? a couple of years ago when she had the "Golden Child" babtized she restated she wasn't of any faith, she just wanted Noah to have something to fall back on ( in case he's thinking of becoming a rapist like Daddy I guess). When did this "epiphany" happen? Now she's a true believer and lecturing others on the "true path" of Christianity? The arrogance of this broad knows no bounds. This episode was a giant load of political bullshit.

[skittl3862]

1 hour ago, sockii said:

And I'm tired of the show having that One Catholic Character who is always treated/looked to as the expert on all things Christianity when...no. (Then again the show has always had that tendency in a lot of ways. Situation involving a Jewish victim or perp, whether secular or very Orthodox? Call in Munch! And pretty much the only time we ever saw Fin leading a case was when the victim was African or African-American...)

See, but I would have preferred Carisi (resident One Catholic Character) speak to Anne about her religious beliefs versus Benson. I've never heard Benson speak about God once in 18 years and suddenly she's giving a sermon full of generic platitudes about God's love like she knows better than the girl who was raised in a religious environment. At least Carisi is a practicing Catholic, and had personal experience with reconciling the moral failures of church leaders with his beliefs just last year.  But that scenario wouldn't give us- once again- Benson personally saving the victim.

[Gigglepuff]

Maybe this sudden religious enlightenment is all part of St. Benson's path to her eventual assumption? 

[CelticBlackCat]

If the congregation did have a name, it would've been Church of St. Hudson.

[QueenMab]

You mean her eventual "ascension" into heaven on the final episode? Wait for it......:)

[Gigglepuff]

Either way.....

[QueenMab]

HAHAHAHA! Whoop! There it is....

[QueenMab]

Maybe Barba has been bangin' her with that "Jesus piece" he wears on a gold chain under those suits swinging in her face and she finally "saw God". Since no other explanation was given....there's mine. HA!

[25thID]

4 hours ago, Gigglepuff said:

Maybe this sudden religious enlightenment is all part of St. Benson's path to her eventual assumption? 

That's just a formality. I think that she has already been canonized.

[Xeliou66]

LOL, that is a hilarious photo of St Benson. I agree it would've been better for Carisi to talk to the victim as he is by far the most religious of the characters, I've never heard Benson talk much about religion.   

I agree that the episode might've been better if it had dealt with foreigners maybe from Africa or Jamaica or someplace where "corrective rape" is a big problem, but it isn't unbelievable that a far right church from Indiana would believe in it as well. And no one said anything about all of Indiana's church's condoning it, the vast majority wouldn't. But there are plenty of churches that have evil lunatic pastors here in America, just look it up. I think they chose Indiana because of how many right wing loons that state has given us. 

And I think the reason the church came to NYC was probably on some kind of mission trip. People like Reverend Gary don't just stick to preaching hate from their small town pulpit, they travel and go all over. 

[wknt3]

17 hours ago, QueenMab said:

The detectives sit in court all day because their contracts say they all get a certain amount of screen time so they shove them into court sitting like "choirboys" to get it. That's why it never makes sense. And since when did Olivia Benson become an expert on God and Christianity? 18 years I've watched that character state repeatedly she "didn't know", didn't really "believe" in God, wasn't raised in any faith and didn't really have any. As recent as what? a couple of years ago when she had the "Golden Child" babtized she restated she wasn't of any faith, she just wanted Noah to have something to fall back on ( in case he's thinking of becoming a rapist like Daddy I guess). When did this "epiphany" happen? Now she's a true believer and lecturing others on the "true path" of Christianity? The arrogance of this broad knows no bounds. This episode was a giant load of political bullshit.

If there is any language in their contracts about screen time, it is most likely the other way around - limiting the number of scenes they appear in per episode. It's pretty standard in the entertainment industry - one of the issues Vincent D'Onofrio had on Criminal Intent was that he didn't have such a clause in his contract since he didn't have experience as a series lead so he ended up working insane hours and pretty much wore himself out. No the reason they sit around in court is to tell us how we are supposed to feel, to set up the scene where they accept Benson as their Lord and Savior and decide to finish testifying and because the writers have no faith that we can remember that the police and DA are working together if we don't see the squad through the trial. And of course Benson needs to be there so she can tell Barba what to do. And yeah Benson's religiosity came out of left field which is why I think it was explicitly to state that they weren't condemning all religion as well as because they didn't want to let someone else be the one to get through to the victim.

11 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

LOL, that is a hilarious photo of St Benson. I agree it would've been better for Carisi to talk to the victim as he is by far the most religious of the characters, I've never heard Benson talk much about religion.  

And I think the reason the church came to NYC was probably on some kind of mission trip. People like Reverend Gary don't just stick to preaching hate from their small town pulpit, they travel and go all over. 

Actually pretty much any of the other cops would have been better and more interesting. Carisi would have been more believable bonding over faith. Or Fin talking to her as someone who understands coming from a homophobic culture. Even Rollins talking about how doing something you regret doesn't mean you have to accept anything that's done to you. But that would be blasphemy. And they said that they they were there for mission/charity work. I know of a number of local churches that go down to NYC on similar trips - because if you do the Lord's work he'll forgive you for watching the sinners on Broadway or enjoying any of the other evil secular delights the city has to offer.

[Aethera]

Folks, let's remember that though there are religious themes in this episode that were perhaps controversial, we need to continue to respect each other's opinions. And also, politics don't belong on this site, so please leave them out of the discussion. 

[ForeverAlone]

I agree that this could have been a deeper and more interesting episode if the perpetrators/victims were from a group that is more known for the idea of corrective rape (e.g. South Africa where it is a real problem). I think it would have been better to explore more why it happens in the real world rather than argue that this is some sort of First Amendment issue of religious freedom. The  underlying reason for corrective rape seems to be hatred of homosexuality, and in my opinion, this episode glossed over it a bit by all the high minded statements about the will of God and the like 

[katisha]

On 2017-5-20 at 1:03 AM, Gigglepuff said:

Either way.....

I only just got around to watching this episode and really, this says it all for me.  As usual, too much St Benson and not enough of anyone else.  And I'm still find it hard to wrap my mind around the fact that "curative" (or corrective) intercourse is actually a thing.  How fanatical would one have to be to actually believe that would work?

[Kel Varnsen]

I really wish Barba had asked either the rapist, or the creepy reverend, if this kind of curative intercourse is a part of their church and members think it is important, then why is it something that is done as a surprise without getting consent from both people doing it. You would think if it was something that everyone in their church believed in, getting agreement before hand wouldn't be a problem. Also you would think in their eyes, that both people enjoying thing would make the cure more effective, which I think would be infinitely less likely if one person was forced to do it.

I also wish Barba had asked the rev, what happens if curative intercourse leads to pregnancy.

[The Mighty Peanut]

On 5/18/2017 at 0:31 PM, slowpoked said:

I was curious as to why Barba didn't bring up "What if the boy is the homosexual one? how do you 'correct' them?" argument during the early part of the trial to prove that the religion is just using God to justify rape of young girls. But I guess they didn't because of the "twist" later on that Luke himself needs to be "cured". 

I thought it would come out that the reverend had curative intercourse with Lucas and his other charges, and was encouraging them to pay it forward if they saw the same sin in other congregates. I'm glad it didn't go that way, but it would have fit the pattern.

I may be making this up, but wasn't there a very old episode--maybe from the Stabler days--about NAMBLA? I have a vague memory of a religious group or cult that was using religion to justify pedophelia.

Edited August 20, 2017 by The Mighty Peanut