S05.E23: Scrambled

[ElectricBoogaloo]

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Holmes and Watson investigate a murder that puts them in the crosshairs of one of New York City's deadliest gangs. Also, Holmes' behavior becomes increasingly erratic when he secretly interacts with a mysterious woman.

Promo:

[paigow]

Glad this preview confirms Dead Shinwell....

[johntfs]

It wasn't that Shinwell wasn't a potentially interesting character so much that he didn't really fit into the Elementary world.  It'd have been like along with the in and outs of the drug trade on The Wire the show just introduced an eccentric British millionaire "pip, pip cheerioing" his way into scenes ever so often.

[basil]

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It wasn't that Shinwell wasn't a potentially interesting character so much that he didn't really fit into the Elementary world.  It'd have been like along with the in and outs of the drug trade on The Wire the show just introduced an eccentric British millionaire "pip, pip cheerioing" his way into scenes ever so often.

Can you explain this further? How did Shinwell not fit? He had a past with Watson. He was a part of a nyc gang. Holmes and Watson have been known to associate with criminals and outliers. He didn't just appear out of nowhere.

Edited May 8, 2017 by basil

[Eneya]

The vibe, the style, the script, the chemistry... wasn't there.

[johntfs]

10 hours ago, basil said:

Can you explain this further? How did Shinwell not fit? He had a past with Watson. He was a part of a nyc gang. Holmes and Watson have been known to associate with criminals and outliers. He didn't just appear out of nowhere.

At its core Elementary is a mystery show.  It's about smart, observant people navigating the twists, turns, deceptions, false leads and red herrings until they final come to the truth and solve the mystery.  There was no real mystery about Shinwell, just a few things that Sherlock and Joan didn't know at first, which isn't the same thing.  Shinwell's first handler was crooked and a while back he killed somebody.  Neither revelation really altered his character or situation one iota.  He was the same guy determined to bring down his old gang, SBK, by infiltrating them and ultimately ratting them out to the cops.

For that matter, there's no mystery involving SBK.  When/if they kill somebody everyone knows who did it (in a general sense, ie SBK) and why it was done (because they did something SBK didn't like).  There's information to be learned, but no clues to follow or mystery to solve.  So, in this mystery show, there was no mystery about Shinwell or SBK.  In a different style of crime drama centering around informants and undercover, there would have been a lot of relevant stuff in terms of Shinwell and SBK, but not here.

[basil]

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At its core Elementary is a mystery show. 

I agree it ought to be a mystery show, but it really isn't, imo. It is far more character driven than mystery driven.  It's about Holmes and Watson and their colleagues, imo. The cases come in a distant second. Many, if not most of its cases are ridiculous and improbable. Often, the solving of them is equally absurd, with Sherlock having some obscure knowledge that we the viewers are not privy to.

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For that matter, there's no mystery involving SBK.  When/if they kill somebody everyone knows who did it (in a general sense, ie SBK) and why it was done (because they did something SBK didn't like).  There's information to be learned, but no clues to follow or mystery to solve.  So, in this mystery show, there was no mystery about Shinwell or SBK.  In a different style of crime drama centering around informants and undercover, there would have been a lot of relevant stuff in terms of Shinwell and SBK, but not here

You have stated that "we" don't care about Shinwell - by which you mean you, though you obviously have company.  I have always been curious about Shinwell's motives. Why did the younger brother lie all those years ago about the murder in the kitchen, and why did he come forward so many years later and try to avenge his brother's murder with the very same gun (which Shinwell courteously dropped into a bin just outside, in plain sight of anyone who heard the gunfire)?

Why did Shinwell turn against SBK? Did he suddenly develop a conscience and want to atone for his part in it? Or is it something more? Why, after all these years of denial, did Shinwell decide the confess now? Why was the brother killed anyway? There are  lot of unanswered questions. I may have missed some answers to this, but I just don't get the dislike for the character. I do think the writers could have written his arc better.

I loved the wordless look between Sherlock and Joan after Shinwell's last text. Sherlock knew without seeing the text that it was from Shinwell, and that Joan was going to him. He had said everything he was going to about it, and knew she was going anyway. She knew he disapproved. All of that was clearly conveyed without a word spoken. That's some pretty good acting.

Edited May 9, 2017 by basil

[paigow]

2 hours ago, basil said:

I have always been curious about Shinwell's motives.

 

You did miss a few answers...

• Little brother has wanted to kill Shinwell for a long time, but had to wait until Shinwell was released from prison.
• Little brother was not a gangster, so he did not want to buy a gun - legally or illegally - that would leave a trail.
• SBK was negotiating a truce with a rival gang. One of the terms was that Jameel - i.e. big brother - must die for hooking up with an ex-girlfriend from said rival gang. Shinwell was ordered to do the hit.

[basil]

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Little brother has wanted to kill Shinwell for a long time, but had to wait until Shinwell was released from prison.

I understand that he had to wait until Shinwell got out of prison. What I don't understand is why he waited so long to change his story that he didn't know who killed his brother.

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Little brother was not a gangster, so he did not want to buy a gun - legally or illegally - that would leave a trail.

I'm not sure what I missed here. I questioned why Shinwell (who by little brother's account was walking away from the scene) would simply drop the gun in a garbage bin within sight of the murder. Wouldn't he keep it, or toss it in the river as younger brother claimed to have done? To dispose of it so carelessly and so close to the scene makes no sense. Bought or not, using the same gun that killed his brother to try to kill Shinwell leads right back to that murder - and him.

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SBK was negotiating a truce with a rival gang. One of the terms was that Jameel - i.e. big brother - must die for hooking up with an ex-girlfriend from said rival gang. Shinwell was ordered to do the hit.

But didn't that turn out to be a lie? In any case, despite being ordered to, Shinwell denied killing Jameel. Why admit it now, and what made him go from learning to be a proper informant to deciding to take down SBK all by himself?

[Driad]

This is getting to be a long thread for an episode that hasn't aired yet.  Maybe some of the discussion could be in the thread for the May 7 episode?

[basil]

It would be just as off topic there, I would think. At least here it is chronologically correct.

Perhaps a mod can chime in and move this discussion to the All seasons thread that has been lying fallow for the last 3 months, or the next person to respond can direct other posters there, or to the previous episode, as Driad suggested, where much of it really doesn't belong, either.

Suggestions?

Edited May 9, 2017 by basil

[Athena]

1 hour ago, basil said:

Perhaps a mod can chime in and move this discussion to the All seasons thread that has been lying fallow for the last 3 months, or the next person to respond can direct other posters there, or to the previous episode, as Driad suggested, where much of it really doesn't belong, either.

Episode threads before an episode airs should have some speculation the episode. If it relates to previous ep or episodes, you can use previous episode threads or the All Episodes Talk thread.

[basil]

I moved my previous response to Paigow to the All Episodes Thread.

[kay1864]

"People who love each other"?  She's a new character, right? And why did Sherlock look like he was on the verge of tears?

ETA: Actress is Joanna Christie.

Edited May 15, 2017 by kay1864

[Chyromaniac]

So... She's imaginary, no?

Edited May 15, 2017 by Chyromaniac

[thuganomics85]

It took me a while to place Joanna Christie as Sherlock's mysterious friend (?), because she is Connie Murphy on Narcos, and I had no idea that she's actually British.  She does a pretty good American accent on Narcos.  I have no clue what was going on with her, since it felt like I was suppose to know who she is.  I almost wondered if they recast Moriarty for a second since Natalie Dormer is likely too busy now, but it's not like she would be out already, so what is her deal?

So, right now, it seems like they are sticking with SBK as the killers, but instead of going for the guy who put the knife in Shinwell's back, they're trying to gun for the head honcho, and connect his and all the other killings to him for good.  At first, they thought it was the normal, arrogant kingpin, but now they think it is his brother that is actually running the show, despite having a legit business.  The actor was good; I remember him as Black Tower from Daredevil (and an episode of Luke Cage.)

As soon as they narc cop pointed out how the supposed kingpin's social media was just full of a bunch of pictures and memes, I knew that it was going to be a code, and was frankly surprised it took Sherlock and Joan that long to figure it out.

Enjoyed seeing both Bell and Gregson play significant parts in the episode.

[Eliza422]

The B story with the mysterious woman was out of the blue, right? It was very jarring - and unnecessary with such a strong A story.

[ohjoy]

I called the brother running the show from the moment they first walked into his office. Don't know why. None of the story of the falling out or the drug kingpin brother's superior intelligence rang true.

 

Please tell me they're not doing a "Sherlock's secret sister" story on this show too. Once was enough.

 

ETA: I don't know that I like the idea of Sherlock having a mental break and imagining her that much either, but it is consistent with what we've seen so far, and is not another sibling, so at least that's something.

Edited May 15, 2017 by RandomMe

[shapeshifter]

52 minutes ago, Chyromaniac said:

So... She's imaginary, no?

That would explain the almost old-fashioned floral dress and sweater. But if so, is Sherlock going crazy? There was also the switch with Sherlock sleeping in while Watson worked on the code all night.

[rtms77]

So either that was Moriarty after plastic surgery and somehow out of her prison or they are also doing the secret sister which will dominate next season? Of course it could be a figment of his mind and Sherlock has a split personality? Which would explain not knowing who texted the cop. Very weird to start this so close to the season end.

On the other hand I m worried for Joan and Marcus's families with that threat from the gang leader. Just the way he said it and that he has the means to find out has wondering.  Who by the way anyone could see was the real guy in charge after the whole spiel of how smart he was etc.

Shinwell I will not miss you one bit. The writers either dropped the ball with character or the actor couldn't sell it but this was a season long wasted character. I think the difference between him and Kitty was she gave off a genuine sense of really wanting to change and build her life into something worth while and we saw that growth over the season. I came to care about her in the end even though the beginning was rough with her replacing Joan. Shinwell never really got any where. The guy had a chip on his shoulder the size of a boulder and Sherlock I think saw it. The old Sherlock would have cut him down and out but now instead his growth means trying to see what Joan saw. Still he just never clicked and once he started his informant thing he just fell of the wagon. When he attacked Sherlock and then tried to blame all his behaviour on the gang, I just waved him off. I think the show was trying to go for the edgy, gritty story but could not pull it off.

[Vermicious Knid]

Oh good, I'm not the only one confused by the British woman. Because I was all "WTF? Did I miss an episode that introduced her?"

[dwarmed]

My instinct says that the British woman is Sherlock's Tyler Durden/Mr. Robot. I hope that's not the plan for season 6, because that will be quite tedious.

[GaT]

3 hours ago, kay1864 said:

"People who love each other"?  She's a new character, right? And why did Sherlock look like he was on the verge of tears?

ETA: Actress is Joanna Christie.

 

3 hours ago, Chyromaniac said:

So... She's imaginary, no?

 

2 hours ago, Eliza422 said:

The B story with the mysterious woman was out of the blue, right? It was very jarring - and unnecessary with such a strong A story.

 

32 minutes ago, Vermicious Knid said:

Oh good, I'm not the only one confused by the British woman. Because I was all "WTF? Did I miss an episode that introduced her?"

So glad to hear that she's never been on before, I couldn't remember ever seeing her & I had no idea who she was. I think she has to be imaginary for no other reason than she "sent" the text. Sherlock has got another personality in his head. 

I'm really tired of hearing about SBK, this show isn't supposed to be about gangs. Also, did anybody else have a hard time believing that all these gang members had actua enigma machines? It's not like there's a million of them in existence. 

[Rascotes]

The new woman has to be imaginary.  The way Sherlock speaks to her is as if they have a long association, a relationship where secrets are exchanged and intimate subjects are discussed.  In short, the only other person he has that with is Holmes.  If she were real and had that kind of history, that kind of emotional influence over Sherlock than Joan would be aware of her.  As it is, he took pains to keep her out of the situation.

Note that she never interacted with anyone but him and her comments and apparent action were his way of working through an inner turmoil.  Their conversation was a bit like a conflict between the superego and the id where his ethical self was speaking about guilt over a professional failure and she was urging rationalization, trying to excuse him of accountability.  Later she shows up at the station (again interacting with no one) and demands involvement and attention in his life, acting out to force her way in after he seeks to limit her.

Or I may be reading too much into things.

[paigow]

Odd that Sherlock had such contempt for people buying Nazi material a few episodes ago, but matter-of-factly purchased an Enigma machine online [or got it from Morland]. Also odd that there were no Alan Turing / Cumberbatch jokes thrown in.

[dwarmed]

1 hour ago, paigow said:

 

Odd that Sherlock had such contempt for people buying Nazi material a few episodes ago, but matter-of-factly purchased an Enigma machine online [or got it from Morland]. 

 

I think Sherlock's disgust had to do with people collecting items *because* they were connected to Nazi Germany, due to an enamored feeling for or morbid curiosity of Nazis. His reasons for getting an Enigma machine were different, the practical use in the case and an admiration of the technology itself, which existed before Nazis. If he were getting it just for memerobilia, that would be gross and certainly hypocritical. 

[CaptainCranky]

Note to self. Never ever read these forums before you actually watch the episode.

[basil]

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Also odd that there were no Alan Turing / Cumberbatch jokes thrown in.

I thought it odd there was no mention of Turing, but why would a joke about him be thrown in? He defeated the Enigma machine, certainly saved lives and arguably shortened the war by doing so. In return, he was labeled a criminal (homosexual) and committed suicide. Not a lot of laughs to be found there. Any mention of Cumberbatch would have pulled me right out of the show.

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The new woman has to be imaginary.  The way Sherlock speaks to her is as if they have a long association, a relationship where secrets are exchanged and intimate subjects are discussed.  In short, the only other person he has that with is Holmes.  If she were real and had that kind of history, that kind of emotional influence over Sherlock than Joan would be aware of her.  As it is, he took pains to keep her out of the situation.

Note that she never interacted with anyone but him and her comments and apparent action were his way of working through an inner turmoil.  Their conversation was a bit like a conflict between the superego and the id where his ethical self was speaking about guilt over a professional failure and she was urging rationalization, trying to excuse him of accountability.  Later she shows up at the station (again interacting with no one) and demands involvement and attention in his life, acting out to force her way in after he seeks to limit her.

 

I do like this theory, but my only problem with it is that Sherlock has never hesitated to admit when he is wrong, and I can't see him buying a phone to send that message.

[Trey]

So, the woman was imaginary eh?  I just thought she was a stalker.

I really enjoyed the A plot, thought it was very well done. And no overdone twists and turns.

[basil]

I'm not convinced she's imaginary, I just thought it was a good theory. I can see that being a method Sherlock would use - but if he bought the phone to send the message and pretended not to know it, I would question his sanity, and I don't think the show is going there.

I think she's real, but have no idea who she is.

[kay1864]

Oh  and if you haven't heard: Elementary renewed for another season !

[Ailianna]

I thought she was just the woman who was the leader of the meeting, maybe a counselor, and was acting as a sponsor to Sherlock--or so he thought.  She instead became obsessed with him, and has created a romantic relationship in her head from the sponsor-sponsee relationship.  And I think that's why he told her so much (but not really all that much--she had to go to a lot of trouble to dig up the name and number of the detective involved, for instance, since he just referred to a colleague, if memory serves.  If he did give the name, she still had to find his number.  I think she's real, but he doesn't want her anywhere near the police station, because he tries to keep his addict status separate from his consultant status.

[Trey]

3 minutes ago, Ailianna said:

I thought she was just the woman who was the leader of the meeting, maybe a counselor, and was acting as a sponsor to Sherlock--or so he thought.  She instead became obsessed with him, and has created a romantic relationship in her head from the sponsor-sponsee relationship.  And I think that's why he told her so much (but not really all that much--she had to go to a lot of trouble to dig up the name and number of the detective involved, for instance, since he just referred to a colleague, if memory serves.  If he did give the name, she still had to find his number.  I think she's real, but he doesn't want her anywhere near the police station, because he tries to keep his addict status separate from his consultant status.

That's exactly what I thought about her.

[johntfs]

7 hours ago, paigow said:

Odd that Sherlock had such contempt for people buying Nazi material a few episodes ago, but matter-of-factly purchased an Enigma machine online [or got it from Morland]. Also odd that there were no Alan Turing / Cumberbatch jokes thrown in.

I'm pretty much okay with it.  I'd be okay with Sherlock getting an Enigma machine just because he wanted one.  History of crime/espionage/codes/etc.  It's different than getting a book of people autopsied in Nazi medical experiments.  Like:

Guy 1: "I'm going to buy an Enigma machine."

Guy 2: "I'm going to buy a Lugar."

Guy 3: "I'm going to buy soap made from the fat of Jews murdered in the Holocaust."

One of these things is not like the others.

[fauntleroy]

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I thought she was just the woman who was the leader of the meeting, maybe a counselor, and was acting as a sponsor to Sherlock--or so he thought.  She instead became obsessed with him, and has created a romantic relationship in her head from the sponsor-sponsee relationship.

Yes that was my take too, though it seems to me quite careless of him to mention anything about his work to a not-quite-anonymous group. Even granting a world where people don't recognize the name Sherlock Holmes, it is unusual enough to be easy to track down once you know he is a consultant to NYPD.

In the meetings he should introduce himself as Jim or something, and keep quiet about his work.

Edited May 15, 2017 by fauntleroy

[johntfs]

The whole point of the meetings is honesty so he can deal with his addiction.  If he gives a false name he runs the risk of being false about other stuff.  The meetings no longer work and he starts shooting up again.  Sherlock was pretty discreet while describing the Shinwell situation at the meeting.

Edited May 16, 2017 by johntfs

[Writing Wrongs]

I've been bored by the Shinwell plotline and may have missed things, but does Joan know that Shinwell beat up Sherlock? He did right, or did I imagine that?

[Driad]

There may be groups for people who might be recognized from news stories etc. On The West Wing there was an AA group like that, always referred to as a poker game.

[Trey]

5 minutes ago, Writing Wrongs said:

I've been bored by the Shinwell plotline and may have missed things, but does Joan know that Shinwell beat up Sherlock? He did right, or did I imagine that?

No, you didn't imagine it.  Joan knows what happened.

[Writing Wrongs]

oh, ok. Then I don't understand why she is still such a huge fan of Shinwell.

[dwarmed]

Joan wants Shinwell's life to have meaning because she pulled off a medical miracle saving him before he went to prison and invested a lot in him after he got out. She doesn't give up on people easily. 

[Gregg247]

I'm kind of glad that the real leader of SBK is some criminal mastermind.  The idea that some random drug gang could be so sophisticated, with the codes and the window blinds and the website addresses was getting ridiculous.  On the other hand, no members of this long-time gang has ever turned on the gang?  No one has ever made a deal with the police?  That seems hard to believe.

I knew a guy in high school who loved cheating on tests.  He came up with some of the most elaborate ways of cheating you'd ever seen, to the point where I swear he spent more time preparing to cheat than the rest of the class spent learning the material.  This came to mind during the episode.  Wouldn't the criminal mastermind make a whole lot more money if he used all these schemes in his legitimate "advanced diagnostic" business (or whatever it was) rather than in the street-level drug gang he's running?  It seems like an awful lot of work for not that much more pay-off.

For the record, I love when this show concentrates on interesting whodunits with lots of suspects and a clever scheme, rather than these more mundane "character arcs" for various regulars and guest-stars.

[Seppuku]

6 hours ago, Trey said:

So, the woman was imaginary eh?  I just thought she was a stalker.

I really enjoyed the A plot, thought it was very well done. And no overdone twists and turns.

 

I think it makes sense that she's imaginary; I believe she wore the same exact dress and looked the same all three times she interested with him, which spans multiple days.

[tennisgurl]

Thank God for this forum, because for most of the episode, I was totally convinced that I should know who this random mysterious British lady was and her relationship with Sherlock was. She has to be imaginary right? Who else could she be? Does Sherlock just have the worst taste in women ever? Or is he losing his mind? He did sleep in, that was pretty weird.

I'm just so glad Shimwell is gone, even if I didn't really want him to die. His plot was just boring, and I was never that interested in him, both when he was boring, or when he was a violent asshole. I get that Joan is invested in him, but her intense vengeance fever seems a bit much. She knows he was sketchy after all, up to the end, even if he was trying to do something good. He seemed to be more interested in revenge than in any kind of redemption anyway.

Cracked up at the criminal mastermind brother saying he would sue them for discrimination, and Bell was like "Your gonna sue me for discrimination?" It reminded me of a scene in the show Banshee where the head of a Native American gang was telling the group of cops coming to arrest them how they were all imperialistic white asshole persecuting him, and the black cop was like "uh, excuse me?!?!"

At least the case was more or less straight forward. I was convinced that this was all going to have something to do with escaped zoo animals, a rare kind of lemon, and the French Revolution.

[dargosmydaddy]

I definitely think the woman is imaginary, and I'll take it a step further and say perhaps she is supposed to be Sherlock's mom? She died when he was fairly young, right? So his memory of her would be a woman about that age. Just my guess...

I'm interested to see where this is going... Like, why did he suddenly crack up now? (If it really had to do with guilt over the swing chain strangling, it might have been nice if we'd actually been shown that case, rather than Sherlock's brief recap.) Could it have to do with some kind of residual head injury from the Shinwell beating? I thought it was a little strange not only that he slept in, but that he was literally staggering when he exited the bedroom and didn't look at all physically well.

I wish they had spent a little less time setting up the whole Shinwell/ SBK arc, and a little more time setting up this... If we had seen this woman briefly before at a meeting or talking to Sherlock, there would be even more mystery now about what's going on, and it might not be so obvious that she's not real (which would make for a cooler revelation when it comes). And on the (really, really slim, IMO) off chance that she IS real, this is the worst set-up ever in terms of a sudden Sherlock confidant, and definitely needed to be shown before now.

[7-Zark-7]

5 minutes ago, dargosmydaddy said:

I definitely think the woman is imaginary, and I'll take it a step further and say perhaps she is supposed to be Sherlock's mom? She died when he was fairly young, right? So his memory of her would be a woman about that age. Just my guess...

She's also wearing that same Laura Ashley dress and outdated shoes with bows. It's someone he knew who died in the late 80's/ early 90's who is figuring in his imagination now.

[Eneya]

9 minutes ago, 7-Zark-7 said:

She's also wearing that same Laura Ashley dress and outdated shoes with bows. It's someone he knew who died in the late 80's/ early 90's who is figuring in his imagination now.

Oh, god, please... no, this kind of bullshit is so not needed.

[paigow]

Criminal mastermind does not want to pay a lot of tax....so his consulting business only needs to be successful enough...

5 hours ago, Gregg247 said:

Wouldn't the criminal mastermind make a whole lot more money if he used all these schemes in his legitimate "advanced diagnostic" business

[CaptainCranky]

This was one of those shows I thought after the first 30 minutes or so I just wasted 45 minutes of my life I won't get back but with the exception of the story line with the doofus broad the story line with SBK and the two brothers was typical Elementary.

As far as the doofus broad I'm not going to waste time critiquing all the holes in that POS story line.

[MissLucas]

I'm really not too keen on Sherlock going all Mr Robot but British lady gave off an uncanny vibe. I think the biggest clue we got about her was 'I'm always here to listen. It's sort of my job.' I have no idea what that was supposed to mean but it sounded ominous. I was also wondering if she could be his not-dead mother but obviously she's too young. Then I thought maybe she was Mycroft in a really good disguise and that was when I realized that I should probably go to bed.