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All Episodes Talk: The Brownstone

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A place to discuss particular episodes, arcs and moments from the show's run. Please remember this isn't a complete catch-all topic -- check out the forum for character topics and other places for show-related talk.

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I wish we knew the exact floor plan of the brownstone,  Is it 3 or 4 stories?  Does Sherlock have a bedroom?  How many bathrooms are there?  In a few episodes it seemed like everyone was fight over space in the same bathroom.  But the pressing question to me is, why hasn't Joan decorated her bedroom? 

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I have to say, I don't see the big deal about Joan decorating her bedroom. Some people just don't care. Maybe when she had her own place her mother decorated it for her because she got fed up with Joan not doing anything. I've lived in my place for 12 years and my family is still harping at me because I don't have any art on the walls. No photographs or anything.

Agree about the layout though. I get confused in trying to figure out where things are.

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I can't find the particular link, but someone posted an interesting piece about the set on the TWOP thread a couple weeks ago I think. It elaborated on the fact that Sherlock doesn't really have a bedroom in the truest sense, but he tends to use the room off the kitchen. This is the room where he takes his flings and the room he set up for Irene.

Another reason for not decorating or getting too comfortable is that there was a threat that Holmes Senior was going to kick them out. As much as Joan may like the place, she's not renting legally and Sherlock doesn't actually own it either.

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I can't find the particular link, but someone posted an interesting piece about the set on the TWOP thread a couple weeks ago I think. It elaborated on the fact that Sherlock doesn't really have a bedroom in the truest sense, but he tends to use the room off the kitchen.

 

 

 

That would have been me. I was basil31. I meant to copy and paste all that before TWoP closed, but never got around to it. I'll see if I can find that link again. To answer the poster above, we've seen 2 different facades of the brownstone. One was 4 stories, the other was 3. Joan's bedroom was on the top floor. We know this because honey was dripping into it from the apiary on the roof. 

 

The kitchen and Sherlock's playroom (where Irene stayed) are on the ground floor. Stoop level (2nd floor) is the sitting room. Not sure where the fireplace is. 

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I know the set conversation is pretty old, but the brownstone is an interesting set so here are the links that were posted in the TWOP forums before it closed. Some enterprising individuals pulled the entirety of several shows' threads from the site before it closed, so thanks to them the links were easy to locate.

 

'Elementary' set design: Some clues to Sherlock's steampunk look

 

Functional Design is Elementary Sherlock Holmes’s Eclectic Décor Reflects a Mind in Motion

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Hate to revive a topic from the second page, but since this is a question about previous episodes/seasons, this seemed like the most appropriate place.  Our cable provider (Comcast) is having a 'Watchathon' week coming up, with past seasons available for viewing on-demand.  I have been watching Elementary regularly starting midway thru last season (and all of the current season), but I haven't seen most of Season one.  What would be the best episodes to watch?  (I know the answer should be all of them LOL, but with work and school, that's not feasible).  I am definitely interested in those dealing with the Moriarty/Irene plot line, as I have seen references to her but no episodes that included her.  Any handy episode guide would be helpful!

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Hmm, I'd be interested to see what others would say, but these are episodes I enjoyed and also tell the Joan/Sherlock story and some of the Moriarty story. (I left some out that I thought were good for Holmes/Gregson because, well, I had to whittle it down.) I love You Do It To Yourself, A Giant Gun Filled With Drugs, and Details. I wish I could remember which episode Sherlock being a jerk about his sobriety anniversary and the gift Joan gave him. And the episode when he met Alfredo. And the episode where we met Alistair. I may have just gone down the rabbit hole.

 

Pilot
Rat Race
You Do It To Yourself
The Leviathan
M.
A Giant Gun, Filled With Drugs
Details
déjà vu all over again
A Landmark Story
Risk Management
The Woman/Heroine

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I wish I could remember which episode Sherlock being a jerk about his sobriety anniversary and the gift Joan gave him.

Dead Man's Switch

And the episode when he met Alfredo.

The Long Fuse

And the episode where we met Alistair. I may have just gone down the rabbit hole.

Joan meets Alistair in Flight Risk.  Sherlock and Alistair share scenes in No Lack Of Void.

 

My favorite episode by far is A Giant Gun, Filled with Drugs but I also love The Marchioness

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For some reason I though Deja Vu All Over Again was the Milverton episode, but it's Dead Man's Switch. And it's where Joan gives him the gift? How did I not remember? 

 

(I may have dug up my season 1, wriggled in to the rabbit hole, and watched one...or 3)

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I would watch from at least the Moran episode all the way to the end of the season. I watched the show off and on in the first season, but I remember it being the Moran episode that hooked me.

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I was hooked after the episode that aired around Valentine's Day. Sadly, I don't remember the titles, but it had an amazing closing scene between Joan and Sherlock that just gave me all the feels.

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I heard at a different site that the Kitty storyline was originally supposed to last through season 3, and then the makers of the show changed their minds.

 

I've never heard this before. Has anyone from the show indicated it?

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I believe that there are only four more episodes left this season.  I am ready for a thrilling story arc to rival the two from the past seasons, Season 1: Moriarty;  Season 2: Mycroft.  In the next episode "Holmes learns important information about his recovery sponsor, Alfredo, that strains their relationship."  Could it be that what Sherlock learns is that Alfredo has been in touch with his father?  I am certainly ready for a Papa Holmes story arc, can't think of a better way to end the season.

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Apparently, these last four episodes are less of an arc as earlier seasons' last four. The first and fourth both connect with the Alfredo factor, but the second and third are more standalone except for the similarity between Holmes helping Bell with a personal issue (in the second) and Watson helping Gregson with a personal issues (in the third).

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I'm really disappointed that after the intensity of the Kitty arc, we've got basically a collection of standalones in the second part. There are so many fun shows this season that I'm barely forcing myself to watch a procedural, as much as I love Sherlock and Joan. Such a waste of great characters.

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I loved last season's arc with Mycroft so much and I know plenty of others hated it; but at least we all felt strongly about it.

 

And I agree that this season has been a letdown once the Kitty arc was over - lots of good episodes but it really does need an arc to keep the interest up.

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Yeah, I enjoy Elementary but it really needs arcs--often featuring a compelling third character--to make it sing. As a procedural, it's something I watch when I'm home and it's on; it only becomes must-see TV for me when it gets more serialized.

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What are your opinions about each season? What things have you enjoyed in each particular season, what things have you not, and what do you miss?

I know that my post is really long, but I can't help myself. You don't necessarily have to read it in order to answer the question.

Season one is gold, I think. Everything. Sherlock and Joan (I mean, Jonny and Lucy) in a top form, brilliant fast pace and display of Sherlock's deduction skills, beautiful character development regarding both Sherlock and Joan, so natural, and, oh my God, a Moriarty arc.

Grade: 10/10

Season two, I think, was kinda disappointing, because: 

1 The constant character growth and exploration that had been present in season one was lacking in season two. That doesn't apply to the whole season two, just the second half.

2 The pace of the show became much slower also. 

3 The good thing about season one were recurring characters-Joan's mother, Alfredo, Joan's friends-that would not only provide some more subtle character development and comic effect but also bring a special kind of charm to the show but also create a better sense of Sherlock and Watson as individuals. They were barely featured in season two, and some of them weren't featured at all.

4 And don't get me started with Sherlock and Mycroft relationship. No chemistry, and it ended up getting portrayed as love strong enough to make Joan move away from Sherlock, with barely any foreshadowing or a build up. 

5 Joan seemed cold towards Sherlock. A lot.

I know that many people like season two and I just want to say that I respect their opinion and that I myself don't really hate season two. First half was excellent (minus the Joan/Mycroft reveal), especially 2x2 "Solve For X" and 2x12 "The Diabolical Kind".

Grade: 7/10

Season three, as I've already stated, had been, in my opinion, an improvement. Much more interesting and original cases, more closeness and character development between Sherlock and Joan, the recurring characters featured in season one made at least one appearence, which would mostly bare some importance, a change of pace, and although the Kitty arc could have been better, I've enjoyed it, and the show's adaptation of her story.

Grade: 8.5/10

But one thing the writers have to stop doing, in my opinion, is making murders and investgations take place in remote or village locations. Elementary in season one and first half of season two had a very urban and almost futuristic vibe and, although sesson three had been making up for that pretty good with interesting cases and many plots involving a high technology, the landscapes are still pretty underwhelming. That has to be toned down.

Also, were they using a different camera technique in season one? Because, now that I am rewatching season one, the colors look much brighter and even the picture seem to be of a higher quality somehow (I've been watching all seasons on the same television, same programme). Maybe I am imagining things.

Anyway, what I am saying is: Elementary is a very complex show with very complex character development and unique season arcs, and characters are relatible and therefore their storylines and acting performances leave quite an impression even on casual viewers, let alone the fans of the show, a d there are many changes, development and new characters every season. So, I just want to know, what are your opinions about seasons (NOT THE SHOW OVERALL)  1, 2, 3, what do you think could improve (not necessarily in comparisson to earlier seasons), what things do you miss, what season you think is the best, etc. It doesn't have to be as long as my post. I just want to know how other fans feel. 

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Caught S1 E2 & 3 on WGN last night (think that is the station).  I really enjoyed rewatching the episodes.  I do wish that they weren't on in such large blocks - I think there were 4 on in a row last night.  I can't dedicate that much time to tv and I would like to rewatch in sequence.

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I've just recently found out that Season 1 is being repeated here in New York City on WPIX Channel 11.  Since I only started watching last year with Season 3, I do enjoy the way they are introducing the characters.  Sherlock got so visibly emotional in "Rat Race" that I was almost taken aback.  I think it would take a lot to see that from Season 3 Sherlock, especially in a scene with Gregson.  There hasn't been much of Detective Bell in the two shows I've seen, perhaps he got more screen time later?

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That's one of the strange things watching earlier episodes, but yes, he jumps in and is part of the team. I've caught of few of those and some evenings I'll just put on an old episode because I just enjoy the dynamics of everyone. The one episode I have not rewatched was the the last one. It still pains me to think about it, it's still so gut wrenching.

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A place to discuss particular episodes, arcs and moments from the show's run. Please remember this isn't a complete catch-all topic -- check out the forum for character topics and other places for show-related talk.

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Sorry if this has come up before but where in the city is the brownstone supposed to be located?  I started wondering while watching some more early episodes and noticing some snow scenes.  It hasn't snowed much in Manhattan in the last few years so I wondered if they film the show elsewhere?

 

Also, I liked the episode "Details" featuring Bell, from Season One.  Has his brother made another appearance?

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Sorry if this has come up before but where in the city is the brownstone supposed to be located?  I started wondering while watching some more early episodes and noticing some snow scenes.  It hasn't snowed much in Manhattan in the last few years so I wondered if they film the show elsewhere?

 

 

The brownstone is supposed to be in Brooklyn. The exterior is in Harlem (I think), and the interior and the roof top are in Brooklyn, just not the part of Brooklyn it's set in. I have no idea where you get the idea it hasn't snowed much in Manhattan in the last few years, but I can assure you it's snowed plenty all over all five boroughs quite a lot during the entire run of the show. None of the snow is manufactured. I can personally assure you that it is all real.

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I just meant I don't think it's snowed as much here compared to maybe five or ten years ago, that's all.  It does seem to me sometimes that the outer boroughs get more snow than Manhattan does. 

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I've been thinking about the show lately, and how it should end. Unfortunately, there is a high probability that it will get canceled by the end of season four.

I think that in the series finale (two parter, or one episode ninety minutes long) several murderers, the ones that Sherlock and Joan have put away prior in the series, should escape from prison, having somehow planned that together, and gang up together, planning to take revenge on Sherlock and Joan before fleeing the country. I think: Adam Kemper from 1x3 "Child Predator", Heather Vanowen from 1x8 "The Long Fuse", Jeremy Lopez from 1x10 "The Leviathan", Tanya Barret from 2x2 "Solve For X", Ezra Kleinfelter from 2x3 "We Are Everyone", Dana Kazmir from 3x5 "Rip Off", Del Gruner from 3x12 "The One That Got Away" and Dania Powell from 3x15 "When Your Number's Up".

(A British tourist was murdered in New York sometime prior, and there were evidence that he was planning to track down Kitty, wanting her to look into the unsolved rape/murder case: the victim was his sister. It turns out that was also estaged by Del so Kitty would return to New York-which she did-and he could kill her after escaping from prison.)

So, throughout the finale, Adam and Del get killed and others get arrested, but Tania demands the prosecution to give them an immunity and release them, since she has managed to hack in the witness protection database prior to getting arrested (easily-she has solved P vs NP after all), causing all the information to become public in twenty four hours. She is the only one who has the code that would stop the process. FBI wouldn't have time to re locate all the witnesses or figure out how to break the virus in twenty four hours. So Sherlock would have to reach out to Moriarty for help, having her pull her ties to ensure that some of the criminals will leave witnesses alone and have some of her henchmen cause a part time blackout in the city, giving FBI enough time to re locate the witnesses and eventually defeat the virus.

That way we would have an exciting series finale with some nice callbacks to old times and Moriarty would still be involved despite not being a major part in Sherlock's last cases in the original stories. I think that maybe early in the last seasons Sherlock would deal with a case that would really shake him and he would think about retiring from the detective work, maybe move back to London, but in the end decide to continue working with Joan.

Maybe the subplot in season finale could be Marcus getting married. I'd like seeing Thomas end up from Terry D'Amico from 1x7 "One Way To Get Off", since he is apparently divorced as off season three and I've never seen much chemistry between him and his wife. I have mixed feelings about both possibilities, keeping Sherlock/Joan relationship platonic or developing it into something more. Maybe they could find a middle ground, such as having Sherlock and Joan kiss at the end of the episode. Of course, have minor characters appear throughout the episode, assisting in the investigation, most of them being on the wedding at the end: Alfredo, Randy, Harlan, Ms Hudson, Gay etc.

The last scene should be Sherlock and Joan kissing.

Edited by Mislav

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That finale would not be my cup of tea, but the only thing that would make me really revolt is the kissing. And I'm one of those people who are generally accepting of whatever romantic narrative the show wants to sell me for the OTP, as long as it's done well.

The reason I would hate it is because I actually would like to see a Sherlock Holmes/John Watson storyline in movies or TV where either one or both struggle with an attraction to the other, but there is NO REASON why one character needs to be a woman for that to happen. I was convinced when they announced Watson would be a woman that putting them together romantically was the only reason they were doing that, and I thought it was cowardly and disgusting. The only reason I gave the show a chance was because the creators swore up and down that there was no intention to build a romance between the main characters.

So if the British show wants to pursue a storyline where Sherlock is not as asexual as he thinks and John is not as straight as he thinks and they deal with a mutual attraction, I'd welcome it if it was done well. But on this show I've been highly gratified to see not even the glimmer of an attraction from Sherlock or Joan towards the other, and I for one fervently hope it stays that way. In fact, it's the one story beat that would make me give up this show in an instant.

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That finale would not be my cup of tea, but the only thing that would make me really revolt is the kissing. And I'm one of those people who are generally accepting of whatever romantic narrative the show wants to sell me for the OTP, as long as it's done well.

The reason I would hate it is because I actually would like to see a Sherlock Holmes/John Watson storyline in movies or TV where either one or both struggle with an attraction to the other, but there is NO REASON why one character needs to be a woman for that to happen. I was convinced when they announced Watson would be a woman that putting them together romantically was the only reason they were doing that, and I thought it was cowardly and disgusting. The only reason I gave the show a chance was because the creators swore up and down that there was no intention to build a romance between the main characters.

So if the British show wants to pursue a storyline where Sherlock is not as asexual as he thinks and John is not as straight as he thinks and they deal with a mutual attraction, I'd welcome it if it was done well. But on this show I've been highly gratified to see not even the glimmer of an attraction from Sherlock or Joan towards the other, and I for one fervently hope it stays that way. In fact, it's the one story beat that would make me give up this show in an instant.

Well, I don't want to see the kiss happen because Watson is a woman. I just think that it would fit the characters. Why would it be so important what gender the parties involved are? Dynamic and character development go beyond the genders. The possibility of romance wouldn't be offensive due to Watson being a woman, even if that were the first adaptation where that things would take place. And the kiss itself doesn't instantly equal a romantic relationship in the future. That is why I would like to see it happen in the series finale and finish open-ended. Both shippers and non shippers can have their own idea about how things go on after that, but both scenarios would be equally possible.

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It's not important from a storyline point of view (other than personal taste). It's the meta issues that would bother me - namely, that the only Sherlock story on movies/television willing to explore a romance between the main characters is also the only story where such a romance would be between straight characters, and it would be highly suspect that the gender change is solely for that purpose. As though that storyline couldn't have possibly happened if both characters were men.

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It's not important from a storyline point of view (other than personal taste). It's the meta issues that would bother me - namely, that the only Sherlock story on movies/television willing to explore a romance between the main characters is also the only story where such a romance would be between straight characters, and it would be highly suspect that the gender change is solely for that purpose. As though that storyline couldn't have possibly happened if both characters were men.

By that logic, if Sherlock and Watson would form romantic relationship, for the first time, in the adaptation where they are two men, wouldn't there also be people claiming THAT is offensive, since they never got together in the adaptation(s) where they were of the opposite gender, or at least not first?

That is, unless you just think such development should never happen, ever, in any adaptation, but that is a different discussion.

There were two modern day adaptations of Sherlock Holmes before Elementary, that featured a female Watson (TV movies, one from 1980s and one from 1990s). Neither ended with the romantic relationship between the two. It's not like female Watson is only created for romance purposes.

You can't please everyone. Worrying about the things that some people will cherry pick is pointless, as is to see the genders as the main components of a specific relationship.

That storyline can happen with them being men. That doesn't mean that adaptations with male!Sherlock and male!Watson, so far, have had the components to make it believable. Since most were the actual adaptations of the stories, set in the Victorian era, it's no wonder such thing hasn't happened.

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Agree to disagree. I would hate it and think it cowardly, that's all I'm saying. Not insisting that everyone has to see it the way I do. You do you.

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Sherlock and Mycroft apparently have the same father.  Do we know whether they had the same mother, or anything about the mother(s)?

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Sherlock and Mycroft apparently have the same father.  Do we know whether they had the same mother, or anything about the mother(s)?

Given their antagonistic relationship, and Sherlock's precision in general, I would have expected him to address or introduce Mycroft as his half-brother if they didn't have the same mother. But clearly that's no guarantee.
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Quote

 

  QUOTE

Little brother has wanted to kill Shinwell for a long time, but had to wait until Shinwell was released from prison.

 

I understand that he had to wait until Shinwell got out of prison. What I don't understand is why he waited so long to change his story that he didn't know who killed his brother.

 

Quote

Little brother was not a gangster, so he did not want to buy a gun - legally or illegally - that would leave a trail.

I'm not sure what I missed here. I questioned why Shinwell (who by little brother's account was walking away from the scene) would simply drop the gun in a garbage bin within sight of the murder. Wouldn't he keep it, or toss it in the river as younger brother claimed to have done? To dispose of it so carelessly and so close to the scene makes no sense. Bought or not, using the same gun that killed his brother to try to kill Shinwell leads right back to that murder - and him.

 

Quote

SBK was negotiating a truce with a rival gang. One of the terms was that Jameel - i.e. big brother - must die for hooking up with an ex-girlfriend from said rival gang. Shinwell was ordered to do the hit.

But didn't that turn out to be a lie? In any case, despite being ordered to, Shinwell denied killing Jameel. Why admit it now, and what made him go from learning to be a proper informant to deciding to take down SBK all by himself?

 

ETA: response moved from Scrambled thread.

Edited by basil

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Been rewatching some episodes tonight and for some reading it's taken five series for something to strike me as odd. Why does Sherlock talk about his time at Scotland Yard like it's an organisation, it's the head office of the Metropolitan Police (actually technically it's New Scotland Yard). I mean I can imagine some people conflating the the two, but Sherlock Holmes? I can't see it.

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On 5/28/2017 at 9:38 PM, Autistic Queer said:

Been rewatching some episodes tonight and for some reading it's taken five series for something to strike me as odd. Why does Sherlock talk about his time at Scotland Yard like it's an organisation, it's the head office of the Metropolitan Police (actually technically it's New Scotland Yard). I mean I can imagine some people conflating the the two, but Sherlock Holmes? I can't see it.

Scotland Yard has become synonymous with the Metropolitan police force itself. It's a metonymy similar to how people use Washington DC (or any other capital city) to refer to their federal/national government. The UK media still uses the term as well. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle was probably one of the biggest influences on how pop culture talks about Scotland Yard as well. 

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16 hours ago, Athena said:

Scotland Yard has become synonymous with the Metropolitan police force itself. It's a metonymy similar to how people use Washington DC (or any other capital city) to refer to their federal/national government. The UK media still uses the term as well. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle was probably one of the biggest influences on how pop culture talks about Scotland Yard as well. 

But Sherlock is usually very precise in such things, and would (should?) be appalled at the conflation.

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6 hours ago, jhlipton said:

But Sherlock is usually very precise in such things, and would (should?) be appalled at the conflation.

He usually is, but at the same time he had a slightly different relationship with them in being on some level one of them.  So he, like they, referred to the place as Scotland Yard.

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There isn't a thread for S2 Ep 8, Blood is Thicker, so I guess this belongs here.

In that episode, Sherlock trades rare moose cheese for...I forget what. I think some kind of pass into some place. Unsurprisingly, it's a real thing.

Here is part of the exchange:

Watson: This is one of those "so many questions" moments. Why only three times a year?

Holmes: Well, I'm not sure. Having never milked a moose, I imagine one must catch it in the right mood.

Edited by basil
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I remember that quote. I was not surprised about the timing thing. As a Canadian, I know moose are very aggressive animals. The males can anger easily and charge. Moose are also huge animals and most vehicular collisions with them are fatal. They are not known to be smart animals either so getting them to be gentle with humans would not be easy. 

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On 9/27/2018 at 9:01 AM, Athena said:

Moose are also huge animals and most vehicular collisions with them are fatal.

If you're in a car and see a moose in the middle of the road: Do not swerve; just get down low in your seat below the dashboard to avoid decapitation.
--advice from a highway patrolman I knew in the 80s. 

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On the Line was on WGN the other morning I don't understand why Joan is defending Coventry so much. She keeps defending him like he's worth respect and a good cop. Except we see nothing of that in him. When she makes a comment that he wants to put away bad guys. What exactly has about his behavior gave her that idea? The badge? He blows off their questions about Lucas. He tells Lucas about Holmes and Watson investigating him AND gave him their address.  He also blew off that he was a serial killer. What in all that gives her any idea he's got any interest in putting away bad guys? I find it hard to believe he was any better at investigating any other crime he was assigned given. I get the idea she wanted Holmes to be nicer to cops they work but hard to understand when the cop is someone like Coventry who by the end of the episode really should have been investigated by IAB and/or fired.  

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Have not watched the show in ages!! But I remember that Holmes had an alternative preference to the serenity prayer.

I googled and couldn't find the information.  Anyone out there have the answer?

Thanks 

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This is the only thing that came up for me.

Quote

At the heart of all understanding is realizing what is and what cannot be and the consoling of what is not in our power to change.

From Reddit:

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I'm counting the moments to the premiere... BUT

My brain can't seem to grasp that I can watch only one episode per week. What is this antiquated broadcast method? I want to binge my show!

Ugh. Once these 10 episodes are over, I never have to be subjected to network TV again!

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Wasn't sure where to put this, but I've been rewatching the series on Hulu, and noticed that Oedker pops up multiple times as the fictional search engine.  I wonder at what point they decided to introduce Odin as the man behind it.

Also, Seasons 1-4 have a pretty strong character arc/progression for the main too.  I was pleasantly surprised on the rewatch.

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One thing I liked about this show is the little nods it gave to the actual AC Doyle stories.  Episode titles, little drops of names, things like that. When the King of Bohemia came by to ask for Holmes's help, and aided Watson in straightening out her shady adoption lawyer, I actually jumped up and down in my seat. I'm also fairly certain Det. Marcus Bell was named for Dr. Joseph Bell, Doyle's real-life inspiration for Sherlock.

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Not sure where to put this, so here it is.

I didn't realize I would miss the show until I just removed it from my TV spreadsheet. 

Although I'm not likely to watch it, I re-added it's syndication airing, which here is on WGN at midnight Saturday-Sunday, with next week being 3.2, an early Kitty episode.

This made me feel better, mostly because I realized I do not feel compelled to watch.

But I did manage to stream the first episode of Lucy Liu's new Why Women Kill, which was surprisingly good — but in a different way than the character studies of Elementary. I guess the CBS subscription shows have bigger budgets.

Edited by shapeshifter
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