S03.E15: Heroes Rise: How the Riddler Got His Name

[formerlyfreedom]

Nygma convinces himself that he doesn't need Penguin to succeed and begins to introduce himself to Gotham as "The Riddler." Bullock and Lucius Fox get caught up in Nygma's mind games, while Gordon learns troubling news about his father's death. Meanwhile, the Court of the Owls reveals its next move.

 

[Chaos Theory]

The Riddler story was fun and well played.   I liked the Nygma versus Lucius angle.  

I am not going to enjoy the NotBruce or the Court of Owls storyline.  

[fellini]

Didn't enjoy the story about the Riddler. Hopefully the next episodes are better.

[Danielg342]

Not really much for me to say except "there was way too much going on and nothing really held my interest".

OK, check that- Chris Chalk brought his A game. His best performance of the series.

...and Nygma too had his moments.

...but, truth be told, if I never knew who "The Riddler" was, there wouldn't be any reason for me to get excited about his appearance. I mean, really, Nygma was a far better character in S2.

Oh, and since someone will be bound to mention it- no women this week, aside from one single scene each with Selina, Lee and Ivy.

The Bullock Meter:

He was there...and Donal Logue was entertaining being pretty dopey. Oh, and scared Harvey is a lot of fun. Still, it just doesn't feel like the Harvey of old, someone who was much sharper than the dope who appeared tonight. It does look like he got a haircut and a shave, though.

[HoodlumSheep]

Hmmmm I wasn't feeling this episode. It was pretty slow. 

The good

• Lucius Fox was the MVP of this episode! I'm so glad he got some really good screentime for once. Keep giving us more of him please.
• Harvey continues to be his usual amazing self
• Loved the Harvey/Lucius team up 
• The Lucius/Nygma therapy session was probably my favorite scene of the night
• Bruce kicking butt
• Liked most of the Penguin hallucinations (save for the musical number)
• the doppel!bruce theme continues to be one of my favorite pieces of music from this show. Why won't they release a soundtrack????
• Jim's hair was on point

The "meh"

• The penguin musical number. I just thought it didn't really mesh with the other stuff, but I'd totally be up for a musical episode
• Those police cadets need to go back to police school
• How did they not recognize ed's voice? Even if it was extra gravelly
• The actor playing Uncle Frank was...not good. He was wooden. Stiff as a board. How is Ben M. supposed to work off of someone like him?
• What's the point of Doppel!bruce learning to be bruce wayne if Alfred already suspects something is up??
• Pretty darn slow
• The Riddler stuff wasn't really on par with what we've been getting from him in seasons 2b and 3a. A bit disappointing.

Season 3 continues to be a mixed bag for me. Next week looks better.

Edited April 25, 2017 by HoodlumSheep

[Lantern7]

Wow. It's like the series never got shelved. Gotham never gives a fuck, and that's why I like it.

I mean, it's just a typical week. Ed goes off his gourd, haunted by spectral Oswald. Except Oswald is alive and in Ivy's care. Bruce gets beat up and drugged, and those two events are not related. Jim reunites with his uncle, who is a member of the Court of Owls. Which has Bruce trapped in their mountain hideout, which might be Vancouver. Oh, and Harvey has his dignity stripped from him layer by layer. Loved the Ed/Lucius showdown, where Harvey turned into an especially panicked Curly Howard. Poor bastard.

[Spartan Girl]

Oswald is alive. I'm so shocked -- not It was nice seeing Bullock and Lucius work together.

That Alfred is sharp as a tack.

I liked Nygma's officially donning his Riddler outfit. At least someone in Gotham has embraced their canon identity. Can we just fast forward til Bruce hits puberty and becomes Batman?

[Last Time Lord]

I haven't been able to keep up with this show since they were still doing the stuff with Mad Hatter, but this:

1 hour ago, Lantern7 said:

Wow. It's like the series never got shelved. Gotham never gives a fuck, and that's why I like it.

Yep! Was able to slip right back in so quickly. I love this insane show!

[Kathemy]

Well, every single prediction I made for this episode came through. So that was, yeah, predictable. Very well acted though. Although part of it didn't make sense and one major thing fell flat.

This episode was called "How the Riddler Got His Name". I was expecting a explanation a bit more mesmerizing than, "well, he decided to call himself that."

[Kostgard]

Well, as usual, Jim is carrying the least essential plot line for me. But perhaps it will lead to interesting things with the court of owls. And it did lead to Lucius and Harvey working together, which I enjoyed. But Harvey, man, up your game. How long did you work with Ed and spent all that time bitching about his riddles? I love you but learn  how to put two and two together, detective.

I enjoyed seeing more of Lucius and I really liked the fact that he actually approached Ed with some empathy. Ed is a seriously messed up dude, but also a lonely one who just wants love and acceptance like everyone else (same deal with Oswald). I liked that he told Ed he needed help, though considering the state of the mental health care system in Gotham, I can't really blame Ed for taking a hard pass on that offer. 

All the Oswald hallucination scenes were great and it seemed like the actors were having a ball with them. And highlighted something that Gotham has done well with its villains - despite all the over the top camp, the show has done a great job showing the tragic side of these characters and how despite the over the top crimes and the wack-a-doo outfits, they are sad, lonely people, and Ed and Oswald actually found a true connection and some happiness in each other before Isabella showed up and they both handled it in their usual messed-up fashion. It's all really kinda sad. 

Though...Ed, for someone who claims not to return Oswald's romantic feelings, that musical hallucination was a bit, uh, saucy. Though that feeds into my theory that if Isabella hadn't shown up Ed may have been open to exploring the direction Oswald wanted to take the relationship.

Glad Oswald is alive, and glad that he appears to have recovered through conventional means, and not through some resurrection process (we've had enough of that). Not as thrilled with the potential partnership with Ivy, because she really doesn't do anything for me. 

How long before Alfred figures out he's living with the clone? Will Selina figure it out first?

ETA: Also LOVED that Ed's ringtone was from the Adam West Batman series.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Kostgard

[Lantern7]

On 4/25/2017 at 0:47 AM, Kostgard said:

How long before Alfred figures out he's living with the clone? Will Selina figure it out first?

My guess? Two seconds after Bruce II walked through the door. "Ready for your Shepherd's Pie, Master Bruce?" "Wouldn't miss it!" "Of course. [making notes in the "What If Bruce Gets Replaced By His Doppelganger?" notebook]"

[Kathemy]

I'm betting on Selina finding out Bruce isn't Bruce, and the clone pushing her out the window to cover it up.

[Dame sans merci]

3 hours ago, Kostgard said:

Though...Ed, for someone who claims not to return Oswald's romantic feelings, that musical hallucination was a bit, uh, saucy. Though that feeds into my theory that if Isabella hadn't shown up Ed may have been open to exploring the direction Oswald wanted to take the relationship.

No kidding. A friend texted me 'this is the gayest thing i've ever seen and I work in musical theatre'. Particularly since we never saw actual Oswald behave in a flirtatious manner at all. Is Ed the first supervillain to have 'GAY PANIC' as his origin story?

2 hours ago, Kathemy said:

I'm betting on Selina finding out Bruce isn't Bruce, and the clone pushing her out the window to cover it up.

Oh, I love this spec - you could well be right. I think Alfred's already suspicious, but he's more likely to play the long game to try to use clone Bruce to track down the real one rather than confront him.

[Kathemy]

Wasn't counting on this episode taking so long to review. It'll be a huge wall of text...

[darkestboy]

Fantastic episode. What a way to return too.

Riddler's origins were done nicely. I loved the hallucinations with both him and Oswald and the battle of wits between Nygma and Lucius was a great idea.

I'm hoping Oswald's little musical number is a hint of a musical episode next season too.

Oswald being alive was hardly a shocker though having him and Ivy working together has a lot of potential.

Bruce and Gordon's Court of Owls subplots were alright, not too exciting but the main plot more than made up for it.

We could've done with a little more of Selina and Leslie though, 9/10

[Danielg342]

3 hours ago, Blackcanary said:

Is Ed the first supervillain to have 'GAY PANIC' as his origin story?

I'll be disappointed if that's the case, considering the show never had the balls to fully commit to it in the first place.

[Chaos Theory]

Ever since my soap opera days I have really hated body switch storylines.  I am not sure what it is about them but I just don't like them at all so I am going to hate the NotBruce story. Plus the Court or Owls just kinda looks stupid.

The show does do villians better then heroes.  Or maybe it just writes Jim horribly. 

I've gotten use to seeing only a couple scenes with female characters.  I've learned to deal.  Still I enjoy the show more when Selina gets more to do and when Barbara gets anything to do.  Oh well.  This isn't the show for fans of female characters.  I think this episode might have had the writers panic and throw in a few scenes with females just to not have it entirely male.

 

I have learned to live with it.  I still mostly like the show.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[paigow]

Nygma acted like a kid caught cheating at Go Fish when Fox challenged him on snowflake...

[Kathemy]

44 minutes ago, paigow said:

Nygma acted like a kid caught cheating at Go Fish when Fox challenged him on snowflake...

... no.

The rationale of that scene came in the former scene with Edward and Oswald. As Edward said, "a good riddle reveals the asker. To solve it is to solve the mystery of the person asking it."

Edward didn't just want a person answering it, he wanted him answering it as he would have. He wanted a nemesis who understood him.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Kathemy

[tv echo]

Right before Bruce left to go meet Selina, Alfred told him this little story about Sylvia.  So maybe Alfred will mention Sylvia to Clone Bruce as a test, Clone Bruce will have no idea what he's talking about, and Alfred will know he's not the real Bruce.

[Syndicate]

Last night was the first time I had watched this show in a good while, so I've missed a lot. A few questions: What happened to Fish Mooney the second time? I know she was thought to have been killed by Oswald the first time but she turned up alive. Now she seems to be gone again. What became of the Harvey Dent aka TwoFace character? Who is the Bruce doppelganger? What does he want specifically, and where did he come from?

[Lokiberry]

19 minutes ago, Syndicate said:

Last night was the first time I had watched this show in a good while, so I've missed a lot. A few questions: What happened to Fish Mooney the second time? I know she was thought to have been killed by Oswald the first time but she turned up alive. Now she seems to be gone again. What became of the Harvey Dent aka TwoFace character? Who is the Bruce doppelganger? What does he want specifically, and where did he come from?

Oswald got the drop on Fish, but got all sentimental when she said that she was the one who made him the Penguin, so he let her go, and she hasn't been seen since. Harvey Dent hasn't been around in awhile. Clone!Bruce was one of Hugo Strange's experiments. I assume he was created at the behest of the Court of Owls so they could replace Real!Bruce.

[paigow]

2 hours ago, Kathemy said:

... no.

The rationale of that scene came in the former scene with Edward and Oswald. As Edward said, "a good riddle reveals the asker. To solve it is to solve the mystery of the person asking it."

Edward didn't just want a person answering it, he wanted him answering it as he would have. He wanted a nemesis who understood him.

So if Fox said "person", would Nygma deem that correct?

[Miss Dee]

Damn, but I loved that scene of Bruce getting his second wind and running off his attackers. The more Bruce they show, the better the episode for me.

I don't think we have full-blown Riddler yet. I think he knows he can be who he wants on his own now, and he knows what name he wants to be known by. But I think we're going to see how he makes his bones and develops his reputation and becomes "THE RIDDLER" to everyone else. Ed's story is ending, but Riddler's is just beginning.

Hopefully this is the approach they're taking with Bruce as well; we're getting to see how the idea of Batman came to be, and hopefully before too long we'll get to see that persona start making his bones too...even if Bruce doesn't know his name yet.

[Kathemy]

40 minutes ago, paigow said:

So if Fox said "person", would Nygma deem that correct?

No, "person" is even worse, it's not emphasizing the "individual" aspect.

Don't get me wrong, "snowflake" is actually a better answer to me.

[mtlchick]

I had to chuckle that Ed's ringtone is the opening notes of the batman tv show of the 1960s.

The main issue with the show is...The same one; way too many characters. Which given the bizarre scheduling Fox does to it, makes it hard to keep track.  With the meh ratings but good by network standards, i can see the show being asked to trim off some fat. And God willing, a less fractured schedule. 

 

Edit: David and Carmen are growing up so fast! 

Edited April 26, 2017 by mtlchick

[Delphi]

 Jesus.   I really wish this was the Bruce and Selina show featuring Alfred and Harvey Bullock.  Three seasons in and I'm still much more interested and watching Bruce grow as a character.  Don't get me wrong,  coming into this show a few years ago I wouldn't believe that a fifteen year old actor would have the acting chops to carry this show,  but now I most assuredly do. 

David has become the mvp for this show.   And Jim has become season 1 Babs.  He can go.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Delphi

[Danielg342]

14 minutes ago, Delphi said:

 Jesus.   I really wish this was the Bruce and Selina show featuring Alfred and Harvey Bullock.  Three seasons in and I'm still much more interested and watching Bruce grow as a character.  Don't get me wrong,  coming into this show a few years ago I wouldn't believe that a fifteen year old actor would have the acting chops to carry this show,  but now I most assuredly do. 

David has become the mvp for this show.   And Jim has become season 1 Babs.  He can go.

Bruce and Selina as "young sleuths" where Harvey Bullock learns to eventually accept them and maybe even help them out is definitely a show I could get behind, especially if we also see Bruce and Selina slowly drift along their moral compass.

13 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I've gotten use to seeing only a couple scenes with female characters.  I've learned to deal.

I only really mentioned it because Gotham's lack of great characterization for its women has come up many times before on these boards. Having said that, this show is really wasting some quality talent in Erin Richards, Morena Baccharin and Camren Bicondova, among others (like Naian Gonzalez Norvind (Alice Tetch)).

[Perfect Xero]

22 hours ago, Kathemy said:

This episode was called "How the Riddler Got His Name". I was expecting a explanation a bit more mesmerizing than, "well, he decided to call himself that."

Now I'm imagining this episode as a clickbait list on some website that makes you go through 10 slides before you get the answer.

You'll Never Guess How The Riddler Got His Name!

"He likes riddles so he told people to call him 'The Riddler'." #SavedYouAClick

[Teitr Styrr]

I liked it. I like the guy that play Nygma. He has a flair to him, like the Penguin too, I guess. Ha, I guess Batman's whole gallery has flair now that I think about it.

Anyway, need more Bruce and Selina. Also, Alfred already knows. That guy is sharp!

[thuganomics85]

Man, that might have been the most they ever used Lucious Fox on this show.  Even Chris Chalk seem to be thinking "Holy crap, I'm actually doing things beside spouting exposition or rolling my eyes at others!" in some of his scenes.  I do think it makes sense that he would be more of a "nemesis" to Nygma, compared to Gordon who, lets face it, probably couldn't solve a kid's riddle even if he wanted to.  Hope they keep this little feud going.

At this point, I don't think the show is even hiding that Nygma and Oswald are so in love with one another.  Nygma's hallucinations really felt like conversations between lovers and not "friends."  Nygma's just in denial, at this point.  Hallucination Oswald was a fun way to keep Robin Lord Taylor around for the episode, but it looks like they already revealed that he is still alive.  And he was saved by.... Ivy?  I wonder how that happened?

Everything involving The Court of Owls; Gordon and his Uncle/James Remar and Bruce getting replaced by a clone; is just dumb and not as fun as the rest of the show.  Just your average mysterious organization full of evil rich people with stupid masks.  And I'm going to call bullshit if Alfred doesn't figure out Fake Bruce by next week, because it is so obvious that there is something off about him.

At this point, why would anyone in the city join the GCPD, when even it's cadets can get through graduation, without getting gassed?  This city is the absolute worst.

[Perfect Xero]

53 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

I do think it makes sense that he would be more of a "nemesis" to Nygma, compared to Gordon who, lets face it, probably couldn't solve a kid's riddle even if he wanted to.  Hope they keep this little feud going.

In defense of Jim (and Ed, for initially picking Jim as his nemesis), back in Season 1 Gordon was actually really good at solving the random riddles that Ed would pose to him and Bullock about whatever case they were working on.

[Snookums]

Quote

At this point, why would anyone in the city join the GCPD, when even it's cadets can get through graduation, without getting gassed?  This city is the absolute worst

 

Seriously. I couldn't believe how many graduates there were! Less fresh squad members, more suicide pact at this point. 

Sigh...this show is like an exhausting boyfriend--it wears you out but you don't have half as much fun with anybody else. The casting really is genius, even though they only give the men anything to do. Why was Morena even there? Even the male fruit guy got twice the screen time over the strawberry!

But Ed and Dead!Oswald really brought it. Taylor did a terrific job of playing not Penguin but Ed's version of Penguin: mouthy, irritating, in his face about how he's just a projection of Ed's psyche, etc. 

1 hour ago, thuganomics85 said:

 

Gahh, can't get rid of that stupid box! Anyway. The best bit was Penguin saying "Don't say Jim Gordon" because I was saying the same thing right then.

Speaking of! Jim Gordon, the dummy, at least knew enough to make sure his gun worked when visiting Mysterious Uncle Frank, only to walk into the cabin UNARMED after hearing a bunch of highly questionable self-serving blather that he's outright said he doesn't believe. How is he still alive??? Did enjoy Frank asking if he'd "ever made a decision that he thought was right," only to regret it later; I expected Jim to just start laughing and say have you met my roster of love interests? Ugh, now this whole Court of Owls thing is going to drrrraaaggg on forever, although it's always nice to see Leslie Hendrix on my screen draped in fab jewelry. 

CloneBruce is going to be annoying just because Alfred's going to have to be out of character stupid and not catch on half as quickly as he should since Real Bruce is off becoming a Kung Fu master or whatever the Court's got planned for him. I agree with the poster who says Selena will figure it out and CB will chuck her from a great height (a motif for this show.)

Ivy rescuing Penguin was a nice little bit and hopefully those two will become a good comedy duo. Her kid-in-a-grownup's-body schtick should play nicely off his issues. 

 

Edited April 26, 2017 by Snookums

[Kathemy]

Done.

Doux Reviews: How The Riddler Got His Name

[NorthstarATL]

Forgot the show was back! Gotham's Riddler isn't the comic character I grew up with, and the introduction of Isabelle last season for no other reason than to divide Nygma and Cobblepot still irks me, but the actor's good at the role, and I enjoy eps that center on him.

  Adult Bruce would NEVER fall for the note trick, but I'll give the show a pass based on hormones overruling sense, which is why Robin needed a mentor.

Bullock and Fox were good. No surprise that Penguin survived, but interesting idea to link him with Ivy. Also glad that the writers/actress remembered that Ivy is NOT as old as she looks.

[Traveller519]

14 hours ago, Delphi said:

 Jesus.   I really wish this was the Bruce and Selina show featuring Alfred and Harvey Bullock.  Three seasons in and I'm still much more interested and watching Bruce grow as a character.  Don't get me wrong,  coming into this show a few years ago I wouldn't believe that a fifteen year old actor would have the acting chops to carry this show,  but now I most assuredly do. 

David has become the mvp for this show.   And Jim has become season 1 Babs.  He can go.

Different strokes and all, but my preference would have been to have left Bruce nearly completely out of the show. Especially during season 1. I agree that David has developed into quite the actor, and of course getting Alfred as part of the deal is worth it. But the Gotham Central concept would have provided a lot more freedom to do its own thing while dipping its toe in the Bat-legacy.

That said, they have done an increasingly good job with the Bruce stories.

Selena really works best as a periphery character for me, when she's interacting with the grown-ups on the show. She's not a super good actor, and I find the Bruce and Selena stuff can get pretty tiring and repetitive.

 

Ed is really slipping into the classic Riddler characterization where we all learn that maybe he's not really as smart art cunning as he likes to think he is. Watching him mentally wrestle with that, and try to suppress his inklings of it, was fun.

The court of Owls already bores me.

[Snookums]

You know what's wrong with the Court of Owls? They are woefully un-owl-branded. They've got the masks, but that's it, and they hardly ever even wear them! Oh, and that ugly-ass From Your Aunt Sarah's Attic chunk of crystal owl statue that Alfred and Bruce got broken, but that's okay since nobody even seems to remember its existence, I guess. but still!

This isn't some little upstart outfit--the Court's supposedly been around forever (along with every other supersecret/super powerful cult that worships and terrorizes Gotham but apparently NONE OF THEM KNEW ABOUT THE OTHERS) and they have not gotten their act together outfit-wise, at all.  At this point the charter members should have full-face barn owl tattoos and surgically implanted wings and be snacking on mouse pate, while their minions have to run around with big feathery claw feet shoes on! Even the Mad Hatter got his goons matching togs!

[Kathemy]

30 minutes ago, Snookums said:

Hey, Kathemy? I can't reach the review from that link.

FIXED IT! Thank God...

http://www.douxreviews.com/2017/04/gotham-how-riddler-got-his-name.html

Formatting and additional pictures should be done by tonight. That was a real scare.

[Sakura12]

How is this Bruce clone even supposed to work? Alfred and Selina know about him. Once the see Bruce acting completely different like in his last scene with Alfred, they should start to wonder if it's the clone they met a few months ago. 

[jhlipton]

On 4/24/2017 at 9:13 PM, HoodlumSheep said:

The penguin musical number. I just thought it didn't really mesh with the other stuff, but I'd totally be up for a musical episode

Life is a cabaret, old chum!

On 4/25/2017 at 8:20 AM, Chaos Theory said:

The show does do villians better then heroes.  Or maybe it just writes Jim horribly.

Lucious, Harvey and even Barnes show the latter to be the case.

6 hours ago, Kathemy said:

FIXED IT! Thank God...

http://www.douxreviews.com/2017/04/gotham-how-riddler-got-his-name.html

Formatting and additional pictures should be done by tonight. That was a real scare.

I left a formatting comment.  Good review.

[Chaos Theory]

On 4/26/2017 at 3:28 PM, Sakura12 said:

How is this Bruce clone even supposed to work? Alfred and Selina know about him. Once the see Bruce acting completely different like in his last scene with Alfred, they should start to wonder if it's the clone they met a few months ago. 

I don't usually like body switch/replacment storylines but One my favorite Jim Gordon scenes was when Clayface (I think) impersonated Jim Gordon.  He did an ok job.  Harvey and Barnes side eyed him a bit but didn't think anything of his odd behavior.  It was actually Barbara who realized something was wrong.  He was being nice to her and hitting on her.

Bruce is odd to begin with.  Selena is temporarily out of the picture.  I am guessing Alfred may have a vague itch that something is wrong but for at least a few episodes not be able to put his finger on what.  

Edited April 27, 2017 by Chaos Theory
Spelling

[scarynikki12]

13 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

How is this Bruce clone even supposed to work? Alfred and Selina know about him. Once the see Bruce acting completely different like in his last scene with Alfred, they should start to wonder if it's the clone they met a few months ago. 

I'm guessing that CloneBruce is supposed to follow an agenda with regard to the Wayne legacy/corporation.  The Court certainly knows that Alfred and Selina have met the Clone so they can't assume that he won't get caught but they probably just need him to pull of the switch long enough for them to accomplish their goals.  I think Alfred already knows and will play along in an effort to figure out where Bruce is.  At some point he'll team up with Selina (maybe he seeks her out or maybe the Clone is still crushing, tries to date her, and she goes to Alfred when she realizes the switch) and they'll work with Jim, Lucius, and/or Bullock to dismantle Court and find Bruce. 

I loved Lucius vs Ed, that was wonderfully enjoyable, but my favorite part of the episode, as always, is the Bruce and Selina story.  Together and separate they always make the episode for me.  All the times I've read comics that focus on their relationship and yet it's this silly show with a couple of teenagers that has managed to portray what I love about the Bat/Cat relationship better than almost any other adaptation.  It's awesome. 

I did find Jim's story boring but I like him best when he's being the straight man opposite the crazy that is the rest of the show.  Him opposite his uncle who may or may not be working against the Court doesn't qualify.  Hopefully we get some good deadpan reactions soon.

[Perfect Xero]

17 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I don't usually like body switch/replacment storylines but One my favorite Jim Gordon scenes was when Clayface (I think) impersonated Jim Gordon.  He did an ok job.  Harvey and Barnes dude eyed him a bit but didn't think anything of his odd behavior.  It was actually Barbara who realized something was wrong.  He was being nice to her and hitting on her.

Bruce is odd to begin with.  Selena is temporarily out of the picture.  I guessing Alfred may have a vague itch that something is wrong but for af least a few episodes not be able to put his finger on what.  

The Clayface scene works (and, in some ways is a perfect illustration of how the wild super science of Gotham City feeds into the insanity of the place) because sane people don't jump to the conclusion that someone they know who is acting weird has been replaced by a clone or a shapeshifter because those sorts of things are, baring a long lost identical twin, impossible. So Bullock and Barnes are probably thinking that Jim is drunk, or he got laid, or some normal explanation for his odd behavior, then Barbara, who is not burdened by sanity, comes in and figures it out in seconds.

With Bruce, though, Alfred already knows that there's a clone of Bruce running around out there, so it shouldn't be nearly as hard for him to intuit what is going on as it was for Bullock and Barnes. I don't think he should have figured it out right away in this episode, but he should probably figure out that it's a possibility quickly.

The weird thing, to me is that Thomas's Bruce was so far off. Clayface never knew Gordon or saw him interact with people, so of course he's just wildly guessing at how to act like him. Thomas, who was presumably created to replace Bruce, got to see Bruce up close for an extended period of time and how he interacts with Alfred and Selina, yet his Bruce impersonation is way off. I don't know if it's a commentary on how Thomas sees Bruce in his head or just kind of bad writing.

[ratgirlagogo]

On 4/26/2017 at 0:52 AM, thuganomics85 said:

At this point, I don't think the show is even hiding that Nygma and Oswald are so in love with one another.  Nygma's hallucinations really felt like conversations between lovers and not "friends."  Nygma's just in denial, at this point.  Hallucination Oswald was a fun way to keep Robin Lord Taylor around for the episode, but it looks like they already revealed that he is still alive.  And he was saved by.... Ivy?  I wonder how that happened?

When was the show HIDING this?????  It's been a central plot point for almost a year now.  And of course remember that Nygma killed Kristen Kringle and went to elaborate lengths to cover it up - and then immediately fell in love with her doppelganger Isabella the moment he saw her!  And now he has "killed"  Cobblepot, is haunted by him, believes he cannot even be who he is without Cobblepot, is struggling this whole episode with trying to resolve this conflict - and  of course he's going to meet up with the not-actually-murdered-at-all Cobblepot, sooner rather than later, I'd guess.  Thus perfectly paralleling the Kristen/Isabella Vertigo story.  This goes along with the riddles - the search for someone who"gets" him.

One of the many things I love about this show is that unlike the CW comic book shows (which I also love) nobody is ever mad at anyone else on Gotham because "you LIED to me!!"  They always have much better reasons - "you tried to kill me! you killed my fiance! you killed my mother! you cut my arm off!"

[Kathemy]

11 hours ago, ratgirlagogo said:

One of the many things I love about this show is that unlike the CW comic book shows (which I also love) nobody is ever mad at anyone else on Gotham because "you LIED to me!!"  They always have much better reasons - "you tried to kill me! you killed my fiance! you killed my mother! you cut my arm off!"

Well, except for Selina... :)

[ratgirlagogo]

19 hours ago, Kathemy said:

Well, except for Selina... :)

Touche.  And they ARE the YA characters after all.....