American Gods By Neil Gaiman: The Book

[formerlyfreedom]

This is the spot to discuss the book, American Gods by Neil Gaiman. If you have NOT read the book, entering this topic will spoil you

[jenngann]

Hi there - on a recent podcast Dave gave the list of Gaiman books everyone loves and those which only Gaimanphiles will.

I've read american gods, am working on norse mythology, loved neverworld.  there was another i hadn't read but didn't recognize the title when i went to the library.  anybody have a good suggestion on what of his to read/avoid?

(have also read a fair bit of his kid's stuff with my daughter).

Thanks,

Jennifer

[jenrising]

5 hours ago, jenngann said:

Hi there - on a recent podcast Dave gave the list of Gaiman books everyone loves and those which only Gaimanphiles will.

I've read american gods, am working on norse mythology, loved neverworld.  there was another i hadn't read but didn't recognize the title when i went to the library.  anybody have a good suggestion on what of his to read/avoid?

(have also read a fair bit of his kid's stuff with my daughter).

Thanks,

Jennifer

There's Anansi Boys, which is connected. I don't like it as much as American Gods but it is still pretty good. Good Omens is a great one if you enjoyed Neverwhere. 

[kassandra8286]

Stardust is awesome. Even if you've seen the movie, I recommend the book, it's super entertaining.Thanks for mentioning Norse Mythology, I just ordered it!

[tennisgurl]

I really like Neil's short story collections. Fragile Things is probably my favorite, but I recommend all of them. I also really loved The Ocean at the End of the Lane, but its VERY Gaimon-ish, so beware! Agree on Anansi Boys, its a spin off of American Gods, but can easily be ready as a stand alone, as it only has one character in common (three guesses who!), and its a very fun read. If you have more time to commit, I highly recommend his Sandman series of graphic novels. It also has lots of mythology in it, and has a huge variety of characters and stories. Its one of my favorite things of his, maybe even tied with American Gods.

When I ordered Neil's Norse Mythology book, Amazon recommended a book called The Bear and the Nightingale, which isn't written by Neil, but is has a lot of similar themes, and also has lot taken from mythology and history (its set in rural medieval Russia) and the power of belief and pagan gods and creatures in conflict with a more modern society (again, medieval society, so not exactly "modern, but still) and lots of weirdness. I'm about half way through and I'm still not sure where its all going, but its very compelling, and I would recommend it to Neil fans.

[Haleth]

The Bear and the Nightingale is on my "to read" list, tennisgurl.  Glad to hear your recommendation.  My fav Gaiman book is Neverwhere but I also loved Stardust. (The ghost brothers are hilarious.)  American Gods is prob the next for me although I'm  looking forward to the show. Anansi Boys brings back a favorite character from AG.  I read Ocean when it came out. It's cute but a bit sparse.  It reminded me of China Mieville's Unlondon if anyone is familiar with that. 

Edited April 27, 2017 by Haleth

[vavera4ka]

I read a lot by Gaiman, and I'd recommend reading Norse Mythology before American Gods. By origin I was very familiar with Slavic mythology, by personal interests I also was pretty well versed in Egyptian one, but Scandinavian mythology was, well, not a glaring hole, but somewhat less known. And since it's such a large part of the book it hindered my appreciation a bit.

My fav Gaiman book though has to be The Ocean at the End of Lane. It's so twisted, and dark, and absolutely beautiful. Ode to the innocence and curiosity of childhood while telling a sick and depressing story... Only Neil Gaiman.

Just this one quote makes this book worth having been written:

"Adults follow paths. Children explore. Adults are content to walk the same way, hundreds of times, or thousands; perhaps it never occurs to adults to step off the paths, to creep beneath rhododendrons, to find the spaces between fences."

I also liked Stardust and Graveyard book a lot. Good Omens was a bit hard to get into, but fun once i did. Neverwhere however was a miss. The writing and dialogue was still very Gaiman, but I just couldn't connect to the story... at all. I'm not a germaphobe by any stretch, but i was very put off by the whole setting. And two "gross-stuff-eating" hitmen. I didn't find any of the characters compelling enough to connect on a personal level. Probably just not my theme. I was sad though, since, even though I like some Gaiman books more than the orthers, they are all 5* for me. That one... 3 at most, for the amazing writing.

I'd love to live in Gaiman's imagination. I swear, the way that man comes up with worlds and characters...

Edited April 28, 2017 by vavera4ka

[whiporee]

I love the novels, not so much the story collections. (exempting Sandman, which was my entry point). AG is my favorite, and I liked Anansi Boys but I felt it was a little light. The Graveyard Book was good for what it was -- basically a tweener book -- and I prefer Neverwhere to Stardust, though both are pretty good. The Ocean at the End of the Lane is a good, interesting read, but it's short and feels a bit more like cheating than I'd like. 

I think his character names are always too obvious. Really annoys me sometimes.

One you get into the stories, I can't remember the names very well. I really hated the Susan one (like, a lot), I liked the one about the un-inventor and his birth of evil story. 

[DittyDotDot]

I read American Gods a few months ago. While I found the story intriguing and the characters fascinating, I never warmed up to Gaiman's writing style. So, I haven't been motivated to jump into another one yet. However, based on the recommendations here, I think I might give Norse Mythology a try. 

Edited April 29, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[wanderingstar]

I absolutely loved Neverwhere, Ocean at the End of the Lane and Coraline. 

While I liked certain things about American Gods, I was left feeling kind of meh about the novel overall.

[festivus]

I'm meh about Ocean at the End of the Lane. I read it last summer and it just left me feeling underwhelmed. That's probably an UO though.

[starri]

10 minutes ago, festivus said:

I'm meh about Ocean at the End of the Lane. I read it last summer and it just left me feeling underwhelmed. That's probably an UO though.

Not according to me.

[WatchrTina]

I’ve seen the first episode (available on-demand on STARZ.com) and I a have a few book-vs-show thoughts.  STOP READING IF YOU HAVEN’T SEEN THE EP YET.

Good job by the writers having Audrey say that the funeral ate up all of Laura & Shadow’s savings.  It eliminates any need Shadow might have had to stick around and settle her affairs.  That gets wrapped up pretty quickly in the book but that line gave TVShadow all the motivation he needs to head straight out of town.

The virtual-reality limo was a clever way of filming a scene that would not have been nearly as affecting if filmed, as written, in a real limo.  BookShadow says that the limo seems fantastically long but how to you film that in a real car and make it sufficiently surreal?  In the book the henchmen aren’t really “faceless” – Shadow just can’t turn his head and look at them.  That kind of internal mental paralysis or situational amnesia would be virtually impossible to depict visually so the faceless henchmen was a clever work-around.  It also allowed them to multiply from two to five without the physical constraints of having to figure out where to have three more "real" guys riding in the car.  I’m just not sure about the “Clockwork Orange” vibe I was getting from their uniforms.  But maybe that was a straight-up homage to the “ultra-violence” of that movie.  We know the new gods are down with co-opting classic media icons for their purposes. 

But the thing I mostly want to talk about is Bilquis.  Why on earth do you think they changed Bilquis from a streetwalker to someone who hooks up with her “worshipers” via internet dating?  The INTERNET?  Are they kidding?  It is the enemy of the old gods.  I don’t think BookBilquis would touch it with a ten-foot pole.  Furthermore, the anonymity of a streetwalker picking up a John is essential to Bilquis’ appetites going unnoticed.  There is nothing to tie to her the men who disappear.  There is no paper trail. There is no online footprint.  But TVBilquis has exchanged photos online with her latest hook-up.  Surely someone is going to notice if guys keep disappearing after setting up a date with her via Match.com.  Shouldn’t the cops at least question her when they investigate the disappearance of her latest “date?”  The only rationale I can come up with for this change is that Bilquis is one of the first victims in the battle between the old gods and the new.  Perhaps the show-runners are planning to make the point that it was her use of the internet that got her targeted and made her vulnerable when the new gods decided to start hunting the old gods down.

ETA:  Yikes there are some spoilers out there on the internet.  I just read a couple of articles where they give away that Wednesday = Odin, which you don't find out in the book until the Carousel scene, and an IMDB interview describes Shadow Moon as a "God in training" which is a pretty damn big hint about his parentage -- something you don't find out about until way near the end of the book (if I recall correctly.)

Edited April 30, 2017 by WatchrTina

[Athena]

I think Gaiman has enough range in his style that means those who like him will pick up more of his works, but I've noticed even with his fans that there are wide variations on what they like most from his works. Some fans like Neverwhere, some don't. I think AG put him on the map in some ways, but it's not the one his fans always love as well. I've encountered enough Gaimanphiles to note there are definite ranges in what people like and don't like with his works.

For me, it's Sandman (including the extras), Stardust, and the Graveyard book. I liked Neverwhere as a radio play and as a TV show, less so the novel. I liked Ocean and Coraline but not as much as the others. I didn't care for Good Omens. I liked AG and Anansi Boys when I read them but I'd rank them higher than GO and Neverwhere the novel for me.

[starri]

I've never been able to get more than a few dozen pages into Anansi Boys.

Death: The High Cost of Living (that's a sentimental choice)>Sandman>AG>Neverwhere>Stardust for me.  I can't rank Anansi Boys, and everything else I've really disliked.

3 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

ETA:  Yikes there are some spoilers out there on the internet.  I just read a couple of articles where they give away that Wednesday = Odin, which you don't find out in the book until the Carousel scene, and an IMDB interview describes Shadow Moon as a "God in training" which is a pretty damn big hint about his parentage -- something you don't find out about until way near the end of the book (if I recall correctly.)

The producers have said they don't really care about the spoilers being out there.  They figure the most passionate fans are probably well-aware of what's coming.

[Bruinsfan]

American Gods really appealed to me, so much so that I made sure to see the House on the Rock when in Wisconsin with similarly-minded friends. Have not made the jump to Anansi Boys yet though, and every time I've tried to read Fragile Things something seems to interrupt me after a few pages.

[xqueenfrostine]

8 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

But the thing I mostly want to talk about is Bilquis.  Why on earth do you think they changed Bilquis from a streetwalker to someone who hooks up with her “worshipers” via internet dating?  The INTERNET?  Are they kidding?  It is the enemy of the old gods.  I don’t think BookBilquis would touch it with a ten-foot pole.  Furthermore, the anonymity of a streetwalker picking up a John is essential to Bilquis’ appetites going unnoticed. 

I was less bothered by the fact that Bilquis used the internet as I was that she's now just a "normal" dater and not a prostitute.  I had always liked that Bilquis had set herself up as a modern day "sacred prostitute."  I could have lived with Bilquis using Craig's List to score clients, but just meeting guys on Match is a bummer.

 

8 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

 Yikes there are some spoilers out there on the internet.  I just read a couple of articles where they give away that Wednesday = Odin, which you don't find out in the book until the Carousel scene, and an IMDB interview describes Shadow Moon as a "God in training" which is a pretty damn big hint about his parentage

It may not have been explicitly spelled out until Chapter 4, but I think his identity was pretty clear from the beginning.  At least assuming you knew the etymology behind the names for the days of the week.  They didn't use the line in the episode, but in the novel it was blatantlly hinted through dialogue in their very first meeting that Wednesday was the god that the day Wednesday was named for.  Wednesday = Woden's Day, and Woden was the Saxon name for Odin.   I agree though that all allusions to Shadow's heritage should be avoided given that the TV series may not reach that part of the story until a later season!

 

5 hours ago, Athena said:

For me, it's Sandman (including the extras), Stardust, and the Graveyard book. I liked Neverwhere as a radio play and as a TV show, less so the novel. I liked Ocean and Coraline but not as much as the others. I didn't care for Good Omens. 

I think how much one enjoys Good Omens might depend on how much one enjoys Terry Prachett.  From what I understand, Terry did a lot more of the writing on it than Gaiman did as Gaiman was pretty busy writing Sandman at the time.

I'd have a hard time ranking my enjoyment of Gaiman's work other than saying Sandman and Neverwhere are at the top of my list.  I've enjoyed everything else save Anansi Boys, which I've had a hard time getting into (though I haven't completely given up on it! Maybe I'll try it again after the BBC adaptation comes out).    I've also enjoyed Gaiman's non-Sandman comic work.  I have a soft spot for his Marvel 1602 miniseries. 

[starri]

13 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Why on earth do you think they changed Bilquis from a streetwalker to someone who hooks up with her “worshipers” via internet dating?  The INTERNET?  Are they kidding? 

This is a show spoiler.

Spoiler

In a panel discussion at Lambda Lit Fest, an LGBT book event, Fuller revealed that the app Bilquis uses was built by the New Gods.  The push in the show is apparently that they're attempting to co-opt the Old Gods and bring them into their fold.  I'm assuming the metaphor is about forced assimilation.

[jenrising]

3 hours ago, starri said:

This is a show spoiler.

  Hide contents

In a panel discussion at Lambda Lit Fest, an LGBT book event, Fuller revealed that the app Bilquis uses was built by the New Gods.  The push in the show is apparently that they're attempting to co-opt the Old Gods and bring them into their fold.  I'm assuming the metaphor is about forced assimilation.

Re: spoiler part

Spoiler

I like that, and I think it's a really interesting possibility. Assimilation, yes. But also, can the Old Gods embrace parts of the modern world to stay alive? How much change makes them something different altogether?

And generally, about the changes to Bilquis, I think it's the right way to go. Especially if she's going to be an even bigger part of the tv series, the stigma against sexwork is so so strong. 

[Lemur]

19 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

ETA:  Yikes there are some spoilers out there on the internet.  I just read a couple of articles where they give away that Wednesday = Odin, which you don't find out in the book until the Carousel scene, and an IMDB interview describes Shadow Moon as a "God in training" which is a pretty damn big hint about his parentage -- something you don't find out about until way near the end of the book (if I recall correctly.)

I always assumed that was basic knowledge, that most of the Tuesday, Wednesday, Thurday and Friday are named after Norse gods (Tyr, Odin, Thor, Frigga/Freya).  That, and the opening (the Vikings coming to Newfoundland) as well as Gaiman's ability to name people in incredibly on-the-nose ways seemed to make it pretty evident exactly who Wednesday was.  It's more of Shadow's relationship to him that's the mystery.  

 

10 hours ago, xqueenfrostine said:

It may not have been explicitly spelled out until Chapter 4, but I think his identity was pretty clear from the beginning.  At least assuming you knew the etymology behind the names for the days of the week.  They didn't use the line in the episode, but in the novel it was blatantlly hinted through dialogue in their very first meeting that Wednesday was the god that the day Wednesday was named for.  Wednesday = Woden's Day, and Woden was the Saxon name for Odin.   I agree though that all allusions to Shadow's heritage should be avoided given that the TV series may not reach that part of the story until a later season!

I imagine Shadow's parentage will be hinted at (in fact, may already have been) but won't even be covered in the first season.  They may hold off on that until the second season.  This is purely speculative, but based on who's been cast in what roles and the episodes listed, it looks like they might only be covering the first part of the book before Shadow takes up residence in Lakeside. (Case in point, none of the Lakeside characters have been cast yet.)

ETA - The first season will only cover the first third of the book.  Also, details on sequels for other Gaiman works included here:

http://www.avclub.com/article/neil-gaiman-keeping-eye-american-gods-2-spoilers-254104

Edited May 1, 2017 by Lemur

[tennisgurl]

I'm fine with Bilquis not being a sex worker in the show, mainly because TV has become so over saturated with female characters who are sex workers, I feel like it would be distractingly annoying to a lot of viewers. I'm also alright with her using Match.com style apps. I think it would be interesting seeing the Old Gods trying to mix with New Tech, and I think it could lead to come interesting story ideas down the road, especially if the series keeps going past where the book ended.

I never noticed when I read the book, but when Mad Sweeny said he was a leprechaun, so he clearly wasn't from "fucking Moscow", was that foreshadowing the next gods they meet, the Slavic gods in Chicago, who are from much closer to fucking Moscow?

I dig the updates to the Technology Boy. The stereotypical internet troll has certainly changed from 2001 to 20017. I'm interested to see what/who else they update here. I also wonder how long it will take the show to get through the actual plot of the book, if the show goes on longer than that? Would they start doing some of the novellas featuring Shadow, or start a new plot with the American Gods characters?

I figure a lot of people are just figuring out who Mr. Wednesday is pretty quickly, even without spoilers. Maybe the reviewers are just assuming everyone will get it? With the name itself, and the cracks about how Wednesday is "his day" and how he sees things best out of his one eye, and even the opening with the Vikings leaving behind their Odin statue after they sacrificed to him, it all seems pretty obvious.

[Which Tyler]

2 hours ago, Lemur said:

I imagine Shadow's parentage will be hinted at (in fact, may already have been) but won't even be covered in the first season.  They may hold off on that until the second season.

Already foreshadowed, on the plane

Edited May 1, 2017 by saoirse
Spoiler tags are not needed in here.

[afterbite]

For those of you struggling to get through Anansi Boys, I'd recommend trying the audiobook. It's narrated by Lenny Henry, who absolutely makes the story. I thoroughly enjoyed the audiobook while at the same time realizing that I likely wouldn't have been as invested if I'd been reading the story. In it's audio format, though, it was a treat.

[formerlyfreedom]

Spoiler tags are not necessary in here, as this topic is tagged that it has spoilers, and if you're talking about the books or things that have happened on the show already. If you have spoilers FOR the show that aren't connected to the book, this isn't really the topic to discuss them in - that would be American Gods Spoilers: You Can Never Unlearn Them topic.

[Anela]

I loved Good Omens. Christopher Moore's A Dirty Job, reminded me a lot of that, too. 

I came here to ask if the Gods are fighting over Shadow's soul, or if that one tried to kill him, because he was working for Wednesday. I will google. 

[Slovenly Muse]

It's funny, Anansi Boys is actually my favourite Gaiman book (Apart from the Sandman series, which is brilliant on a whole other level). I loved it, then went on to read American Gods and was disappointed... Even though Anansi Boys gets a bit awkward in the middle (with the treatment of the female characters, mostly), it all gets resolved perfectly by the end. Even if it never really surprises you, it still manages to delight. I find Gaiman's more intimate, personal stuff better than his sweeping epics like American Gods. His short stories tend to be better than his novels, actually. In my opinion, of course, which is just a matter of taste.

I have a weird relationship with Gaiman, though. I don't WANT to like his stuff. Like, I'm reading it, and part of my brain is going, "Really? That's where you were going with that?... And that's the turn of phrase you're going to use here?" Like, I'm very aware that I shouldn't be enjoying it and that there's a bunch of stuff that is not working for me, but somehow, his books just circumvent that portion of my brain and hit my emotions just right, and I find myself helplessly liking them despite what I actually THINK of them.

But if anyone can make American Gods, and do it just right, it's Bryan Fuller. Now THAT'S a man I'd follow anywhere.

[WatchrTina]

42 minutes ago, Slovenly Muse said:

It's funny, Anansi Boys is actually my favourite Gaiman book (Apart from the Sandman series, which is brilliant on a whole other level). I loved it, then went on to read American Gods and was disappointed...

That is such an interesting reaction.  I loved American Gods and really struggled with Anansi Boys (at least at the beginning.)  For me it all stems from the fact that I like Shadow Moon immediately.  I feel for him -- my heart breaks for him when he learns his wife is dead, then that she cheated on him.  And then I cheerfully jump down the rabbit hole with him when shit get WEIRD.

With Anansi Boys, I didn't like ANYONE for chapters and chapters.  And then a funny thing happened -- I fell in love with just about everyone.  I had the same experience with "The Shipping News" which won the Pulitzer Prize for fiction.  I hated it for a long time . . . until I fell in love with it.  (I even stopped someone on the subway who I could see was at the beginning of it to tell them "Hang in there --- it's worth it.")  That's how I feel about Anansi Boys.  Hang in there.  It's worth it.  But as for Amercian Gods?  Neil had me hooked almost from the beginning.

Edited May 2, 2017 by WatchrTina

[jenrising]

57 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

That is such an interesting reaction.  I loved American Gods and really struggled with Anansi Boys (at least at the beginning.)  For me it all stems from the fact that I like Shadow Moon immediately.  I feel for him -- my heart breaks for him when he learns his wife is dead, then that she cheated on him.  And then I cheerfully jump down the rabbit hole with him when shit get WEIRD.

Yes, me too. My first read through I was so taken with this character. His "normal" world was so terrible, so broken in an instant that it just made sense to me he'd go, "sure, why not," as he got dragged into the weird. 

[Athena]

1 hour ago, Slovenly Muse said:

I have a weird relationship with Gaiman, though. I don't WANT to like his stuff. Like, I'm reading it, and part of my brain is going, "Really? That's where you were going with that?... And that's the turn of phrase you're going to use here?" Like, I'm very aware that I shouldn't be enjoying it and that there's a bunch of stuff that is not working for me, but somehow, his books just circumvent that portion of my brain and hit my emotions just right, and I find myself helplessly liking them despite what I actually THINK of them.

I can relate because there are moments where even at his best, part of my brain does the same thing. I love Sandman but there were definitely a couple of books that I liked less and moments I was irked with. Having said that, I do want to like Gaiman's stuff after reading so much of the good stuff so perhaps you too can let your guard down about liking his things.

[scarynikki12]

Rating the Gaiman?  ::flexes fingers::

My two favorites are Good Omens and The Graveyard Book.  After them I prefer his short stories.  He has a way of telling an epic with minimal words.  I enjoyed American Gods, Coraline, Stardust, and Anansi Boys very much and would place them at the same level on a list.  Interworld and Neverwhere are at the bottom, far away from everything else.  Interworld was boring all around and Neverwhere took an interesting concept, paired it with a bunch of great supernatural stuff, and failed on the execution.  I know it exists in other media so it's possible that it just doesn't work as a book but I don't want to waste my time when I already wasted a few hours that could have been spent reading other things. 

I would place his graphic novels, on a different level than his novels.  I go back and forth on the artwork for Sandman (I have a weird relationship with comic art) but the story is brilliant.  Last year I purchased Coraline and The Graveyard Book graphic adaptations and I ended up loving them even more. 

Back to American Gods, it has been so long since I read the book that the show kind of feels like a new Gaiman work and I love it.  I remember the overall story so it's not like I'm unspoiled but I think the forgetting will be an asset to my viewing experience and I can't wait.

[Lemur]

On 5/1/2017 at 3:38 PM, Which Tyler said:

Already foreshadowed, on the plane

Yeah, I caught that.  Which is funny as hell, because there was an uproar when Ricky Whittle was cast because a whole lot of people didn't realize that Shadow was mixed race.  

 

On 5/1/2017 at 1:58 PM, tennisgurl said:

I dig the updates to the Technology Boy. The stereotypical internet troll has certainly changed from 2001 to 20017. I'm interested to see what/who else they update here. I also wonder how long it will take the show to get through the actual plot of the book, if the show goes on longer than that? Would they start doing some of the novellas featuring Shadow, or start a new plot with the American Gods characters?

I seem to remember, when Playtone still had the rights to the project, that it would be long enough for Gaiman to get the sequel to American Gods published.  I also seem to recall that Anansi Boys would be pulled into the series as well as they share a universe.  Whether or not that holds true since Freemantle is now producing it, I don't know.  But, since the first season is only going to be the first third of the book, I'd say three seasons at least if it does well.

[tennisgurl]

I could see them pulling Anansi Boys into the plot at some point, but they might have to change some things to get some of the other main characters into the plot, because people might be thrown by suddenly focusing on totally new characters, without Shadow or anyone because the brief scenes of Mr. Nancy. I seem to remember they were looking to make it a movie several years ago, and Neil was writing the script, but the studio wanted to cast white actors in the place of the black main characters, and he wouldn't sign off on it, so the project never happened. He might want to give it another shot here with people that will let him have more of a say in casting. I don't know for sure if that happened, but its what I head. There were also two novellas about Shadows travels in Europe after the events of American Gods, and they could make for a few episodes or arcs at least.

Speaking of, Mr. Nancy is the character I'm most concerned about being brought to screen. I'm not a purest by any means, and I get that things change in adaptation, but Orlando Jones still strikes me as a weird choice for Mr. Nancy. I had a few reservations about a few other casting choices, but seeing them, I think they'll be fine, but Orlando Jones is just so young! He is a good actor and all, and they have the style right it seems, but I always pictured Mr. Nancy as a cool, fun loving, super chill old guy who might be old, but he still loves to have fun and laugh and tell stories. From what we`ve seen, the shows version doesn't seem like that at all, at least in the previews. But maybe I`ll be surprised. Like I said, I like the guy, I'm just not sure about this part for him.

[Jamoche]

On 5/2/2017 at 0:43 AM, scarynikki12 said:

I would place his graphic novels, on a different level than his novels.  I go back and forth on the artwork for Sandman (I have a weird relationship with comic art) but the story is brilliant.

 

My relationship to comic art was weird in a different way - I don't know if it was just the first comics I read had bad art, or that I was conflating it with picture books where you don't miss anything from skipping it, but I'd never grasped the idea that you have to pay attention to the art or you miss most of the story. So there I was reading just the dialog and going "meh". But Sandman had art worth looking at for its own sake, and then it was all "whoa, so that's where they were hiding the story"

[Haleth]

I posted this in the media thread and thought I should mention it here too. There is a feature on demand about Neil, following him on a book signing tour and talking to him about his creative process.  It's very interesting and shows him to be a truly lovely person. Poor guy had to stick his hand in a bucket of ice after every session, yet he was gracious and attentive to every fan.  At least for this film.

[scarynikki12]

3 hours ago, Haleth said:

I posted this in the media thread and thought I should mention it here too. There is a feature on demand about Neil, following him on a book signing tour and talking to him about his creative process.  It's very interesting and shows him to be a truly lovely person. Poor guy had to stick his hand in a bucket of ice after every session, yet he was gracious and attentive to every fan.  At least for this film.

That's the key.  In my experience, the only fans he's actually nice to are the ones who cry, act like they'll faint, or otherwise treat him as a god.  He's an amazing writer but I would advise not meeting him if you aren't willing to start gushing about how he changed your life.

I had more to say but I took it to the book thread to avoid going too far off the AG book topic.

[jeansheridan]

On Monday, May 01, 2017 at 0:10 AM, xqueenfrostine said:

less bothered by the fact that Bilquis used the internet as I was that she's now just a "normal" dater and not a prostitute.

For non book readers she is already a challenging sell.  I got uncomfortable watching this black woman exposed for a very long scene until.the twist happens.  But also making her a street hooker would have gone too far visually.  At least for me.  There are ideas that are easier to accept on page than seeing on screen.  Such as a cow being hammered. I did not need to see that twice.

On Wednesday, May 03, 2017 at 11:06 AM, tennisgurl said:

but I always pictured Mr. Nancy as a cool, fun loving, super chill old guy who might be old, but he still loves to have fun and laugh and tell stories.

I pictured Don Cheadle, but Jones will do.  I think Cheadle is scarier personally, but Jones was intense tonight.  Plus he is so cheery about the show on his instagram.  He appreciates good material.

[WatchrTina]

On 4/30/2017 at 5:33 PM, WatchrTina said:

Good job by the writers having Audrey say that the funeral ate up all of Laura & Shadow’s savings.  It eliminates any need Shadow might have had to stick around and settle her affairs.  That gets wrapped up pretty quickly in the book but that line gave TVShadow all the motivation he needs to head straight out of town.

Quoting myself above and boy I couldn't have been more wrong.  We were treated to even more of the packing up the house and settling of affairs than we saw in the book.  I'm not sure why.  Was it just so we could see the dick pic on the phone and have Audry's accusations bout Laura's affair with her husband confirmed beyond a shadow of a doubt?  And given that Shadow saw that, why did Wednesday also have to confirm it?  Was it just to give we (the viewers) a hint that Wednesday knows more about Laura's death than he's letting on?  It almost feels like they are stretching thing a bit because they wanted to end this episode on the cliff-hanger of Shadow losing the first checker game.  As  a reader, I know a second checker game follows that alters the situation, but I guess for the unsullied that's a good, tense place to end.

[tennisgurl]

I'm really torn about Jones as Mr. Nancy after tonight. His speech was super intense and the music and styling of the whole scene was riveting, and he was really great delivering the speech, but...it just didn't seem like the Mr. Nancy from the book. Maybe this is Mr. Nancy when he was still young, and he's more like the fun old guy with yellow gloves from the book when we actually meet him in the present? I am glad he is really into the material, he's really great when it comes to interacting with people through social media. The more people check this out the better!

[starri]

6 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I pictured Don Cheadle, but Jones will do.  I think Cheadle is scarier personally, but Jones was intense tonight.  Plus he is so cheery about the show on his instagram.  He appreciates good material.

See, I always read him as a lot older.  Although when I looked it up, Orlando Jones is pushing 50 (and we have the same birthday), so he's not as far off as I thought.  And he's got the character's mannerisms down cold.  I just always figured Mr. Nancy was in his 60s, although I've never been able to come up with an actor that looks like I pictured him.

[jeansheridan]

2 hours ago, starri said:

See, I always read him as a lot older.

I agree about him being older in the book but not a ton of American or British sixtysomething actors come to mind.  Andre Braugher is busy.  Courtney B Vance maybe?  I like Orlando's build for it.  He is wiry.   I have never been a purist about transferring a character from book to screen unless a characteristic is essential. But Fuller blew it on Hannibal with one major character so he does have a blind spot.  So far I cannot complain beyond nitpicks.  

For example would Shadow say fuck while talking with the oldest sister?  In answer to a question she asked?  I don't think so.  Being polite is part of how he hides.

[starri]

I'm not even so sure about it being a politeness thing so much as it is him being institutionalized from being in prison.

On a different tangent, was I the only one who thought Czernobog and Bielobog weren't so much twins as two halves of the same person?

[vavera4ka]

1 hour ago, starri said:

On a different tangent, was I the only one who thought Czernobog and Bielobog weren't so much twins as two halves of the same person?

In the book I think that's what happened. At the end Chernobog just "became" Belobog. In Slavic mythology though there are opinions that Belobog is more of an afterthought and appeared way later as an almost artificial juxtaposition to Chernobog. The mentions about him start appearing around 14-15 century, way after Slavic pantheon was established. There's a spirit that's associated with good luck in Belarusian mythology. Old white bearded man - Bjalun (same root of the word white).

[basil]

Quote

Which is funny as hell, because there was an uproar when Ricky Whittle was cast because a whole lot of people didn't realize that Shadow was mixed race.

 

Did those people read the book? Early on, Shadow is taunted by prison guards as being black or Native American.

[Bruinsfan]

12 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I pictured Don Cheadle, but Jones will do.  I think Cheadle is scarier personally, but Jones was intense tonight.  Plus he is so cheery about the show on his instagram.  He appreciates good material.

My mental image reading the book was of Keith David, but I certainly have no objections to casting Orlando Jones.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Bruinsfan

[WalterWhiteWalker]

5 hours ago, starri said:

See, I always read him as a lot older.  Although when I looked it up, Orlando Jones is pushing 50 (and we have the same birthday), so he's not as far off as I thought.  And he's got the character's mannerisms down cold.  I just always figured Mr. Nancy was in his 60s, although I've never been able to come up with an actor that looks like I pictured him.

Scatman Crothers in Kubrick's film of The Shining comes very close for me.  But I loved Orlando Jones last night!

[starri]

3 minutes ago, WalterWhiteWalker said:

Scatman Crothers in Kubrick's film of The Shining comes very close for me.

I wouldn't be surprised if that's exactly who Gaiman was picturing when he wrote the book.

[Lemur]

2 hours ago, basil said:

 

Did those people read the book? Early on, Shadow is taunted by prison guards as being black or Native American.

Apparently not very well. But you know how it goes, people see what they want to see in book characters. 

 

1 hour ago, WalterWhiteWalker said:

Scatman Crothers in Kubrick's film of The Shining comes very close for me.  But I loved Orlando Jones last night!

Pretty much, but I'm okay with them going younger and darker with him.  He's a bit of a clown in the books, with his stories about spiders eating a tiger's balls and what not.  I think he has more power in this carnation.

4 hours ago, starri said:

On a different tangent, was I the only one who thought Czernobog and Bielobog weren't so much twins as two halves of the same person?

Wednesday says something about him being a dualistic type, and post Rock City Czernobog says something about Bielbog coming home, so that was the assumption I always made as well. 

[whiporee]

We don't have our version of an Unsullied thread, but maybe this will do:

It's a real bummer they haven't shown Laura's explanation to Shadow yet. I think it really personalized her instead of leaving the last word on her the dick pics and Wednesday's commentary. 

Also thought the Lucy scene came too early, and was a lot less seductive than I would have liked. I would have preferred them to CGI the real Lucy to GA's portrayal. She did a good job, but I think it took away from the idea that it wasn't actually Lucy Ricardo making the pitch. Also, having it in the store made it less intimate than it deserved, and I missed the image of the intervention leading to Rob Petry slapping Laura around. Those were good, shocking images from the book that were left out. 

Aside from the imagery, i don't know why we needed to see Bilquis again. Her first scene set her up the way she needed to be set up, and I thought going back to her montage was rather gratuitous. She's not a real player in all this -- she's jsut another God trying to stay alive.

And I HATED the cliffhanger. Czernobog's threat to Shadow was a threat only in terms of the scene. It will suck if they leave out Shadow beating him int he second game, and leaving it as a cliffhanger assigns it a lot more weight than the actual scene had. 

[starri]

39 minutes ago, whiporee said:

I would have preferred them to CGI the real Lucy to GA's portrayal

I doubt very seriously Lucy's estate would have been okay with that.

[ajsnaves]

Can somebody please remind me when the Lucy scene happened in the book?  In my mind, it happened when he was in Cairo, but now I am second guessing that.  It still seems awfully early in the story last night though.  I might need to do a reread this summer after the show is done.