Season 1 Talk

[shelley1234]

On 4/20/2017 at 10:41 AM, Winston9-DT3 said:

I agree, Justin could've done more.  I don't think Bryce could've continued if Justin had made enough of a clatter banging on the door, for example.  It was just an interior door, too.  He probably could've broken it.  And Hannah should've done something.  

1

ITA.   I have to wonder the sense that Justin is more to blame or Justin should have done something to stop it....is because he's male or because Hannah died, but Justin is still here or another reason.  

Justin didn't bust in the door after Bryce locked him out to stop him.  True.  Hannah sat there while it was happening.  Watched.  Listened.  You could say Justin knew what was probably happening.   Hannah knew for sure.   She didn't do anything or say anything.   One could say she is in shock and afraid.   Sure.   I could make the case the same was true for Justin and he might have even more to lose if he stopped Bryce.  

And Justin didn't tell Jessica after what happened.   True.  Neither did Hannah and Hannah knew 100% what happened.  She knew Jessica was conscious.  She knew she told Bryce to stop.   She didn't tell her that she was there and saw it either.   Instead she made a tape for a dozen people to listen to about what happened to Jessica, but never told Jessica.  

Justin should have done more to stop it.  Hannah should have done a lot more to stop it.   Both clearly have a ton of regret about that.  The one person who should have done a lot less is of course Bryce.  

 

On 4/20/2017 at 0:54 PM, rho said:

I wonder if this tape or Justin's second tape (9) was really more of Hannah's tape. She reveals a lot about her own shortcomings in both episodes. I wonder if leaving the tapes behind was a misguided attempt to absolve herself of guilt. She is quite nonchalant when she says it out loud but I can't imagine being in that position and not being distraught. Didn't read the books so maybe there was more that didn't make the series.

The premise presents so many problems for me and as much as I sympathize with the conflicting emotions of a 16yo girl, I have trouble suspending disbelief and wrapping my head around her sitting down to record these tapes, processing all of those memories and not deciding to take action while she was still alive.

 

 

 

Something interesting in a mind fuck disturbing way is that when people make the actual choice that they are going to commit suicide (especially for adolescents), they often become less depressed and less distraught because they see an actual end to their suffering.  They see the end goal, so they are no longer lost in the fog of all the reasons that made killing themselves the only option for them.   You'd be surprised when someone kills themselves and people around them that day sometimes say things like "I knew they were depressed, but he/she was having such a good day today.   He/She seemed happy.  Seemed good.  I never thought he/she would kill themselves, etc."  

[rho]

2 hours ago, shelley1234 said:

Quote

I wonder if this tape or Justin's second tape (9) was really more of Hannah's tape. She reveals a lot about her own shortcomings in both episodes. I wonder if leaving the tapes behind was a misguided attempt to absolve herself of guilt. She is quite nonchalant when she says it out loud but I can't imagine being in that position and not being distraught. Didn't read the books so maybe there was more that didn't make the series.

Something interesting in a mind fuck disturbing way is that when people make the actual choice that they are going to commit suicide (especially for adolescents), they often become less depressed and less distraught because they see an actual end to their suffering.  They see the end goal, so they are no longer lost in the fog of all the seasons that made killing themselves the only option for them.   You'd be surprised when someone kills themselves and people around them that day sometimes say things like "I knew they were depressing, but he/she was having such a good day today.   He/She seemed happy.  Seemed good.  I never thought he/she would kill themselves, etc."  

I was referring to her hiding in the room when Bryce raped Jessica and then doing nothing. She says something about how she and Justin both did nothing but throughout the tapes, the onus falls on Justin entirely. This is essentially her final confession but she leaves no apology to Jessica, not to mention leaving the tapes for a dozen other people to listen to. Clay gets a tiny morsel of remorse but he still had to listen to 5+ hours of her worst memories before he learns her admiration was mutual. Her poor parents were left with nothing but fragmented clues, while the people who wronged her get a carefully penned monologue pointing out every fault. 

You make a good point which I don't disagree with and as an adult, I appreciated the show and it's many subtle nuances. But I do take umbrage with the use of suicide as a plot device. And while I never read the book, I suspect many of the creative visual choices of the show don't align with the target audience of a YA adaptation. Feels like the show was written for the angsty/hormonal/confused teenagers who read the book when it came out and a decade later are adults who have it slightly more together.  

[jade.black]

I have all the sympathy for Zach and none for Hannah in this episode. She was the shitty person for yelling at him in the middle of the cafeteria when he was only trying to be nice. Yes, she had every right to be wary after what his friends had done, but he didn't deserve that and hadn't personally done anything to her. 

Nobody in high school is perfect, and so far very few of these kids have done anything to Hannah that I think earned them a lifetime of guilt for contributing to her death. Justin didn't stand up to Bryce when he sent out the photo (he didn't plan on sending it out himself and wanted his friends to think he got further than he did, typical high school behavior), Alex made a dumb list (directed more at Jessica than Hannah), and Zach tried reaching out to her then very lightly retaliated when she jumped to assumptions about him- the same thing she'd been upset at other people for doing to her, coincidentally. The only two so far that were really awful were Marcus and Courtney (ETA: oops, stalker guy was pretty bad too, add him to the list). I have plenty of thoughts on the series so far, but I'll save them for when I finish it. Just felt the need to comment on this one since it annoyed me more than most.

Edited April 21, 2017 by jade.black

[ElectricBoogaloo]

12 hours ago, auntiemel said:

That's crazy, I also simul-watched the third series of Broadchurch during 13 Reasons Why! I noticed a lot of similar themes, and a lot of situations that seemed kind of like Sliding Doors alternate realities.

Ha, what a coincidence! I think watching them simultaneously made me even angrier about the fucked up attitudes towards sexually assaulting/stalking women. I think it also made me slightly paranoid, which is similar to what happened when I read The Girl on the Train and Gone Girl back to back. I spent a few days thinking everyone was a lying cheating murderer after I read those two books over a weekend. At least on Broadchurch, Miller and Hardy were very kind and sympathetic to the victim. That made me feel like not everyone in the world was a stark raving asshole. The major similarity I saw between the two shows (aside from the sense of entitlement the male characters had towards women) was that even if you're a jerk, that doesn't mean you deserve to be violated (physically or emotionally).

[PBGamer89]

Just finished this as well, and I admit the rape scenes, and suicide scene were the toughest to watch. They were portrayed well and acted well and believable.

As someone who suffers from anxiety and depressions, I've experienced many times where some stuff happens to you and to others it seems like a small issue, but sometimes when small things happen to you and it just keeps happening, you develop a "why me?", or "seriously, enough now" mentality that can be hard to dig out from, and luckily I was able to a few times. So Hannah's reasonings over time didn't seem that far fetched to me.

Some were admittedly worse than others (Jessica and Hannah rapes vs. something like Marcus calling her a slut in the diner), but like I previously mentioned it was a snowball effect.

A second season i'd be open to, maybe a shorter one (8-10 episodes) because a lot was unresolved, but one thing i'm curious over is that even though Clay was obviously in love with Hannah, he never admitted what he sexuality could be (bisexual vs. heterosexual), because I always felt a huge underlying chemistry between him and Tony, to the point where I think Tony actually does have feelings for him, I mean look at all the time Tony spent with him, comforting him and making sure he was ok, etc. It all just felt more than just some guy making sure he listened to tapes. I think that's something that could be explored in a potential second season.

[truthaboutluv]

2 hours ago, PBGamer89 said:

but one thing i'm curious over is that even though Clay was obviously in love with Hannah, he never admitted what he sexuality could be (bisexual vs. heterosexual), because I always felt a huge underlying chemistry between him and Tony, to the point where I think Tony actually does have feelings for him, I mean look at all the time Tony spent with him, comforting him and making sure he was ok, etc. It all just felt more than just some guy making sure he listened to tapes. 

While the actors did have good chemistry and I could maybe buy Tony being attracted to Clay, I got zero indication from Clay's end that he was into Tony or any guy in general. And I think his reaction when Tony told him he was gay was even more telling. Despite it being so clearly obvious to many or at least Tony seemed to think so, Clay apparently had no clue Tony was gay and his response was essentially, "why would I know that?" Honestly, the character I initially thought was gay when he was first introduced, was Alex. So I was surprised to see the story was some sort of pseudo-triangle between him, Jessica and Hannah. Incidentally the actor who plays Alex is gay in real life. 

Edited April 21, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[MV007]

I thought the book did a much better job explaining Hannah's state of mind when it came to her inaction regarding Jessica's rape.  

[MV007]

I think all these kids should feel guilty.  They did some fucked up shit to Hannah.  And I have to wonder if without the tapes if they would've gone on living blissfully unaware that their actions have consequences.  I think the majority of them would have.  In this case, I think Zach would've felt guilt regardless and this would eat him up either way.  But a lot of the kids needed to hear this imo.

[DittyDotDot]

44 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

Honestly, the character I initially thought was gay when he was first introduced, was Alex. So I was surprised to see the story was some sort of pseudo-triangle between him, Jessica and Hannah.

I thought I was the only one who thought that! 

3 hours ago, PBGamer89 said:

I always felt a huge underlying chemistry between him and Tony, to the point where I think Tony actually does have feelings for him, I mean look at all the time Tony spent with him, comforting him and making sure he was ok, etc. It all just felt more than just some guy making sure he listened to tapes.

Once it was revealed why Tony was trying to make sure the tapes were being listened to the way Hannah had requested, Tony's interest in Clay made sense to me. It wasn't just that he wanted to make sure the tapes were listened to, but I thought it was also that Tony was making sure Clay wouldn't end up harming himself or others since he was being so affected by the tapes.

I think it comes down to Tony believing he wasn't a very good friend to Hannah in the end because he missed all the signs that she was preparing to kill herself. So, he was going to be a better friend to Clay and not miss any signs.

I wonder if Tony will blame himself for not paying attention to Alex too? 

[Paloma]

12 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Once it was revealed why Tony was trying to make sure the tapes were being listened to the way Hannah had requested, Tony's interest in Clay made sense to me. It wasn't just that he wanted to make sure the tapes were listened to, but I thought it was also that Tony was making sure Clay wouldn't end up harming himself or others since he was being so affected by the tapes.

I think it comes down to Tony believing he wasn't a very good friend to Hannah in the end because he missed all the signs that she was preparing to kill herself. So, he was going to be a better friend to Clay and not miss any signs.

I wonder if Tony will blame himself for not paying attention to Alex too? 

This makes sense regarding Tony's feelings about Hannah and Clay, but I don't know why he would blame himself for not paying attention to Alex. Tony and Clay seemed to have a long-standing friendship (if perhaps not as close as it used to be), but I didn't see any signs that Tony and Alex were friends--did I miss that?

[truthaboutluv]

5 hours ago, Paloma said:

Tony and Clay seemed to have a long-standing friendship (if perhaps not as close as it used to be), but I didn't see any signs that Tony and Alex were friends--did I miss that?

Nope you didn't miss it. And you're right, Clay and Tony clearly went back a few years because Clay's parents seemed to know him well enough and were asking him about his family, when he showed up at the house. I think that history is also why Tony probably rightly assumed, more than anyone else on the tapes (well except Jessica who had to hear it confirmed on a tape that she was raped), Clay would be the most emotionally affected even if ironically he had the least culpability. And we know Clay himself had some type of emotional/mental stuff in the past that he was on medication for. So yeah, Tony's sticking close to him to make sure he didn't do anything crazy made sense. 

Edited April 21, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[DittyDotDot]

23 minutes ago, Paloma said:

This makes sense regarding Tony's feelings about Hannah and Clay, but I don't know why he would blame himself for not paying attention to Alex. Tony and Clay seemed to have a long-standing friendship (if perhaps not as close as it used to be), but I didn't see any signs that Tony and Alex were friends--did I miss that?

No, I was just wondering if Tony would look back and it and think he spent so much time making sure Clay was okay, but missed that Alex was struggling just as much as Clay and he didn't pay attention because he wasn't Alex's friend. I think that's kinda who Tony is, he's the guy who takes care of everyone else. So, will he now wonder if he should've tried harder with Alex too? 

[Bobcatkitten]

Absolutely a blood test would be done. It's just routine. Though to be clear, if he even came in at 0.02 it would be classified as drunk driving because he is underage. 

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, scribe95 said:

Absolutely a blood test would be done. It's just routine. Though to be clear, if he even came in at 0.02 it would be classified as drunk driving because he is underage. 

Yeah, and even if a test was done, it doesn't stop people from speculating and that speculation becoming the story as fact instead of the actual facts of the case. I guess I just figured everyone was assuming Jeff was drinking because of the situation and the official facts of the case got lost in the mix.

[Jax7917]

I think Hannah's suicide was inevitable, so I don't like how she put the blame on everyone who's ever wronged her. Because in all honesty, life throws many challenges at everyone, some more than others but very few people have little to no problems. Her dating Clay would not have made her less depressed, as depression is a mind set and people can be depressed without anything in particular even being wrong. What she needed was someone to talk  to, whether it was her mom, a therapist, or quite honestly the tape method, as it got her to vent. I didn't see the last episode, but for the impressionable viewers, I would hope that at the end of the tape she admitted that all of the people on the tapes added to her feeling terrible, but in the end the result was her choice and it wasn't their faults. When I said Hannah's suicide was inevitable, I don't mean that it couldn't have been prevented because it definitely could have been . But in order to have prevented it, she needed to seek help so that she would have long term coping skills because at this point, anything that was happening in her life she blamed for making her feel worse.

[auntiemel]

9 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

 At least on Broadchurch, Miller and Hardy were very kind and sympathetic to the victim. That made me feel like not everyone in the world was a stark raving asshole. The major similarity I saw between the two shows (aside from the sense of entitlement the male characters had towards women) was that even if you're a jerk, that doesn't mean you deserve to be violated (physically or emotionally).

I agree with all of that. It also made me so incredibly sad, because there was such a stark contrast between the two women in similar situations
 

Spoiler

in that they were raped, and come to find out, a lot of the people they're surrounded by socially are creepy creepers who creep

It kind of broke my heart, because I thought it showed how the outcome of Hannah's situation might have been so different if she'd had institutional support in the form of people like Miller and Hardy and Beth instead of
 

Spoiler

the at worst victim-blaming and at best highly ineffective Mr. Freaking Porter.

[Paloma]

1 hour ago, Jaclyn88 said:

But in order to have prevented it, she needed to seek help so that she would have long term coping skills because at this point, anything that was happening in her life she blamed for making her feel worse.

This is true, but in her depressed state of mind, she probably could not see that seeking help would make a difference. And because she kept up a good front with her parents, they could not see that she needed urgent help. In a way committing suicide was not really a choice for Hannah, but the result of the distorted thinking that is part of depression.

[shelley1234]

3 hours ago, Jaclyn88 said:

I think Hannah's suicide was inevitable, so I don't like how she put the blame on everyone who's ever wronged her. Because in all honesty, life throws many challenges at everyone, some more than others but very few people have little to no problems. Her dating Clay would not have made her less depressed, as depression is a mind set and people can be depressed without anything in particular even being wrong. What she needed was someone to talk  to, whether it was her mom, a therapist, or quite honestly the tape method, as it got her to vent. I didn't see the last episode, but for the impressionable viewers, I would hope that at the end of the tape she admitted that all of the people on the tapes added to her feeling terrible, but in the end the result was her choice and it wasn't their faults. When I said Hannah's suicide was inevitable, I don't mean that it couldn't have been prevented because it definitely could have been . But in order to have prevented it, she needed to seek help so that she would have long term coping skills because at this point, anything that was happening in her life she blamed for making her feel worse.

 

If you did watch the final episode.....

Spoiler

Hannah did make an attempt to seek out help.   After making the tapes, she admitted she felt better and was gonna make an attempt to live.  Her asking for help didn't go well.   It cemented for her that she was making the right and only choice. 

 

[RealReality]

The most interesting thing about this episode was the fact that no one saw Alex's attempted suicide coming.

In spite of the fact that they all just went through the same thing with Hannah, no one saw the signs.  No one saw the desperation.

I'd like a season 2 just to see Bryce get his.

[Bobcatkitten]

So I decided Clay's head injury was specifically so we could automatically know what was past vs. present tense. And it helped a lot. 

[kimbrchick]

I just finished this. I told my husband that it felt like a really long awful heartbreaking after school special. The only reason I didn't burst into tears during this episode was booze. I just knew we would see her suicide in full detail but it was so much worse than I thought it would be. I recently learned that my 17 year old niece is watching it too and I can't imagine her watching these super mature scenes.

I was sad to hear it was Alex that was the gunshot victim and that it was self inflicted. I am glad that we did not have to see it happen though.

Too many rapes go unreported and this is part of the reason for that. So sad.

So was Bryce tape 12 and was he supposed to hand over the tapes to Mr. Porter after listening to them? I'm sorry if this was obvious or already brought up but that confused me a little.

I hope there isn't a season 2. Not that I didn't like the show, I just don't think it's needed.

[Bama]

My teenage daughter recommended this show to me and I like it so far.

One thing that totally aggravated me though was Clay's dad saying that Clay was 17.  In the first episode, Clay said he was a sophomore.  What?  17 year olds are seniors - what the heck happened there?  Don't see Clay as the failing two grades type.  Surely the writers didn't just fuck that all up and I hope it will be explained later.

Totally a nitpicky complaint but it really bugged me.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

One thing that totally aggravated me though was Clay's dad saying that Clay was 17.  In the first episode, Clay said he was a sophomore.  What?  17 year olds are seniors - what the heck happened there?  Don't see Clay as the failing two grades type.  Surely the writers didn't just fuck that all up and I hope it will be explained later.

Clay is 17 in the present day scenes with the tapes. He is a sophomore in most of the flashbacks.

Not all 17 year olds are seniors and vice versa. It depends on how strict the school district is about the birthday cut off dates for first grade. A lot of places now have September or October as the cut off so you have to be six by September/October 1st. If your birthday falls after the cut off (my nephew's is four days after the cut off), you have to wait until the next year to start school which means being almost a year older than your classmates.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

15 hours ago, auntiemel said:

I agree with all of that. It also made me so incredibly sad, because there was such a stark contrast between the two women in similar situations
 

  Hide contents

in that they were raped, and come to find out, a lot of the people they're surrounded by socially are creepy creepers who creep

It kind of broke my heart, because I thought it showed how the outcome of Hannah's situation might have been so different if she'd had institutional support in the form of people like Miller and Hardy and Beth instead of
 

  Hide contents

the at worst victim-blaming and at best highly ineffective Mr. Freaking Porter.

ITA - having Beth as an advocate definitely helped Trish on Broadchurch, as did Miller and Hardy treating her with respect and never questioning whether she was lying about what had happened to her. The characters on 13RW, on the other hand, seemed to have no emotional or professional support for what they'd gone through. I mean, who at school had any sympathy at all for Hannah being slut shamed in the first episode? The guys were busy whooping it up and the girls were either glad it was someone else or assuming it was true and judging her.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

8 hours ago, scribe95 said:

So I decided Clay's head injury was specifically so we could automatically know what was past vs. present tense. And it helped a lot. 

I mentioned this in the izombie forum because in the season premiere, they gave one of the characters a mustache to specifically show when it was a flashback scene vs. the present. Clay's cut/scar/bandage throughout the series gave us a very easy way to tell which scenes were taking place in the present versus the past (in addition to the color filters).

[Paloma]

8 hours ago, scribe95 said:

So I decided Clay's head injury was specifically so we could automatically know what was past vs. present tense.

It also was evidence of his being so distracted and/or upset by his memories that he got injured because he didn't pay attention to his surroundings. 

[Paloma]

4 hours ago, kimbrchick said:

So was Bryce tape 12 and was he supposed to hand over the tapes to Mr. Porter after listening to them? I'm sorry if this was obvious or already brought up but that confused me a little.

This confused me, too, but I think Bryce was tape 12 and was supposed to hand the tapes to Mr. Porter after listening to them. Except that it seems obvious that Bryce would never hand over the tapes to an authority figure, and the other people on the tapes seemed to be trying to prevent Bryce from even knowing about the tapes.

[juliet73]

4 hours ago, Paloma said:

This confused me, too, but I think Bryce was tape 12 and was supposed to hand the tapes to Mr. Porter after listening to them. Except that it seems obvious that Bryce would never hand over the tapes to an authority figure, and the other people on the tapes seemed to be trying to prevent Bryce from even knowing about the tapes.

Yes, Bryce was tape 12, but I thought someone (Clay?) said he was going to give Bryce a copy of only tape 12.  Am I remembering that correctly?  My thoughts on this series...  I thought it was well done and the acting was superb!  It was heartbreaking and sad. Like Clay, I could only handle one or two tapes a day.  Each tape was worse than the previous.  The last two episodes were tough to watch.  Hannah not fighting off Bryce in the jacuzzi - basically giving up and giving in was heartbreaking.  The dead in her eyes as she was slumped over the edge was haunting.  The scene in the bathtub was horrific.  Not just the act of her slicing her wrists, but her heavy breathing that gradually slowed and then just stillness.  I started crying when her mother found her. When she was hugging Hannah and telling her over and over she was going to be okay was so emotional.  

I have a few issues with the show.  I don't understand why Hannah continued to try to be friends with this group.  Over and over, each of them screwed her over, but she kept going back for more.  Why didn't she try to be friends with different people?  Obviously, Clay and Tony were her friends and treated her with respect.  Why didn't she hang out with them?  Instead, she goes to a party where she doesn't like anyone and they don't like her?  I don't get it!  Then she sees Jessica getting raped and doesn't stop it or say anything to her?  What makes that if more bizarre and frustrating, is Hannah knows Bryce is a complete scumbag, but then goes to his house, strips down to her underwear and sits in the jacuzzi?? Who or why would you do that?  She absolutely didn't deserve to get raped, but she literally walked in to the lion's den covered in steaks.  I don't understand these parents either.  Hannah really didn't show her troubled side to her parents so I give them a pass.  However, Clay's parents?  Their son gets suspended from school, is out all night, comes home with his ass beat, won't tell them why is acting out and they basically accept that one day he'll tell them what is going on?? Seriously?  As a parent, if my child started exhibiting abnormal behavior, you can bet your ass I'd be going though his room, his backpack, following him when he is going "out", etc.  I won't even get started on Justin's poor excuse of a mother. Now that Tyler's parents have heard that he gets bullied on a constant basis, I hope they step up and do something to help him before he takes matters into his own hands.  I was surprised that Alex was the one that shot himself.  After thinking about it though, I shouldn't have been.  He had been crying out for help in every episode only to be blown off or congratulated for being a tough guy.  I noticed at the end when Alex's dad came in his room and said, "it looks nice", that should have been a huge red flag that something bad was going to happen. Besides all the "yes, sir and no, sir" crap, his clothes were folded perfectly and all the hangers in the closet were spaced out evenly, etc. He was going to kill himself, but wanted his dad's final approval that his room was clean to his dad's high standards.  The school counselor was the worst!  He was so out of touch and basically admitted that if the students weren't involved in gang shootings, then they had no problems!

Final thoughts...I'm sure the school did turn a blind eye to any trouble the jocks were involved with.  Unfortunately, as we all know, this is just not a high school issue.  Look at all the professional athletes, celebrities, people with money, etc who should be in prison, but aren't held accountable for their crimes.  Sad. Very Sad.  

[Paloma]

2 hours ago, juliet73 said:

I don't understand why Hannah continued to try to be friends with this group.  Over and over, each of them screwed her over, but she kept going back for more.  Why didn't she try to be friends with different people?

I think we have to remember that for many teenagers the need to be popular overrules common sense. Most kids probably would give up and look for other friends (or give up looking for any friends and just be depressed), but others might keep trying to get in with the popular crowd. 

2 hours ago, juliet73 said:

What makes that if more bizarre and frustrating, is Hannah knows Bryce is a complete scumbag, but then goes to his house, strips down to her underwear and sits in the jacuzzi?? Who or why would you do that?

Again, the teenage mind is not completely rational, and peer pressure is huge. I'm sure one part of Hannah was recognizing that this was a bad idea, but another part was recognizing that this type of carefree partying was what the popular kids were doing, and maybe she would be accepted if she joined in. At the moment she stripped down and got in the jacuzzi, she probably thought she could control the situation. Once things started going bad, she could not act fast enough to escape.

 

2 hours ago, juliet73 said:

 I noticed at the end when Alex's dad came in his room and said, "it looks nice", that should have been a huge red flag that something bad was going to happen. Besides all the "yes, sir and no, sir" crap, his clothes were folded perfectly and all the hangers in the closet were spaced out evenly, etc. He was going to kill himself, but wanted his dad's final approval that his room was clean to his dad's high standards.

Good observation--I didn't pick up on the neatness and what it might mean.

[rho]

57 minutes ago, Paloma said:

3 hours ago, juliet73 said:

I have a few issues with the show.  I don't understand why Hannah continued to try to be friends with this group.  Over and over, each of them screwed her over, but she kept going back for more.  Why didn't she try to be friends with different people? 

I think we have to remember that for many teenagers the need to be popular overrules common sense. Most kids probably would give up and look for other friends (or give up looking for any friends and just be depressed), but others might keep trying to get in with the popular crowd. 

Even though Alex and Jessica made their way to the in-crowd, they were outcasts when she befriended them. I don't think all these kids were a tight-knit group until they listened to the tapes. Blackmail brought them together. Tyler, Courtney and Ryan were definitely kept at arm's length. There are multiple times where they all agree that being seen together would cause speculation. 

[DangerousMinds]

On April 12, 2017 at 3:47 PM, shoregirl said:

  When Hannah talked to the guidance counselor it should have  set off alarm bells with him. He should have at the very least called her parents. I think if/when the tapes get out he probably loses his job. 

        What struck me the most was how they wrote most of the kids as sympathetic in a way. With the exceptions of Bryce (of course), Courtney and Marcus  (and maybe Ryan). Even Justin who did awful things and was a huge asshole I felt for him . What a terrible home life he had ,not that excuses anything he did.

Speaking as someone who has worked as a high school counselor, he absolutely failed. The moment she mentioned being tired of life, he should have asked her outright if she had been thinking of harming herself (and/or others) and immediately contacted her parents. She was clinically depressed and needed immediate parental and medical intervention.

[Happytobehere]

On 4/20/2017 at 10:46 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

You don't have to be a mwahahaha mustache twirling villain in order to intentionally be a dick to someone.

Bryce sent a picture of Hannah to everyone in school. Justin, knowing the truth, did nothing to stop him or set the record straight. That's a dick move. He'd rather let the whole school believe that they had sex at the playground than stand up to Bryce or admit that they only kissed. Alex and Jessica hid their relationship from Hannah. That's a dick move.

Alex put both of them on the hot or not list to get back at Jessica for not having sex with him. That's a dick move and malicious towards both Hannah and Jessica.

Tyler stalked Hannah and took photos of her which is not only dickish and creepy but illegal. When she found out and confronted him, he had the absolute gall to ask if she wanted to hang out with her stalker. When she very logically said no, he sent one of his stalker pictures to everyone in school. That's malicious.

Courtney not only confirmed the LIES about Hannah being a slut started by the Justin/Bryce photo/rumors but then threw in some extra stuff for added measure. That's malicious.

Marcus stood Hannah up for two hours, tried to finger bang her in a restaurant, and then made a scene and slut shamed her. That's malicious AND sexual assault.

Zach stole all the notes from her compliment bag because she rejected him. That's a dick move.

Ryan stole her poem and published it, knowing that she had explicitly said she didn't want anyone outside of the poetry group to read it. That's a huge invasion of privacy and a dick move.

To me, that's not Hannah grasping at straws. That's Hannah enumerating the ways that people, many of whom were supposed to be her friends, were DICKS to her. None of these people had positive intentions when they did these things and they weren't accidents, like bumping into someone and spilling a drink on them.

PREACH.  All of these kids are vile, horrible people and their willingness to plot against and terrorize Clay shows the truth of who and what they are.  The sad part is, people like these kids, rarely, if ever get their comeuppance.  Rather, they go on to perpetuate the mean girl mentality, rape culture supporter, pick on anyone who can't defend themselves against you behaviors that help make so many decent peoplesl lives miserable. What's even sadder are the people who seek to make excuses for them by blaming the Hannah's of the world.

Edited April 22, 2017 by Happytobehere

[Happytobehere]

On 4/8/2017 at 6:02 PM, tennisgurl said:

I really do wonder why Hannah never told Jessica the truth while Hannah was still alive. I can understand her being too shocked and horrified to do anything during the actual rape, but why never say anything afterwards? She and Jessica seemed to be on decent, if not friendly terms, and she seems to have some memory of the rape now that its being discussed, maybe if Hannah had said something earlier, Brice wouldn't have gotten away with it.

I really liked seeing Clay and Hannah hanging out at the party and being normal teenagers. If they had gotten more of that, maybe things would have turned out differently.

I think there are multiple reasons behind Hannah not telling.

1) Fear of not being believed by Jessica, remember, their interaction that night just prior to this wasn't all peaches and cream. Jessica basically told her she was feigning concern about her because she was jealous that Justin didn't want to be with her.

2) Fear of being further targeted if Jesica didn't believe her and ran to uber popular, BMOC, Bryce, who even Justin, Jessica's boyfriend clearly feared.

3) Given the other events of the night, Hannah, who was already hanging by a thread, probably couldn't process what was happening and how she could deal with it.

4) Guilt over the fact she not only failed to act, but that SHE, Hannah Baker, someone who knows how it feels to be victimized failed to do anything and what said failure might say about her.

5) Fear of being further ostracized and labeled the the drama queen and problem child and outright liar.  I mean based on their conversations with each other and Clay, it is clear that Hannah is not lying (even the incident with being wrong about Zach getting rid of her letter appeared to be more of a mistake, than a lie, as she did see him throw something on the floor, she just was wrong abut what was thrown. Zach himself says this when he tells Clay that she misunderstood what she saw or words to that effect). Yet rather than deal with their culpability everyone finds it easier to blame Hannah and call her a liar, because at this point, she is an easy target.

[Happytobehere]

On 4/14/2017 at 8:46 AM, Paloma said:

Maybe it will become clear in later tapes/episodes, but I don't understand why Brice is not depicted as the main villain in this tape and why he apparently does not have his own tape. Justin can certainly be blamed for not doing more to stop the rape or for lying to Jessica, but Brice is the rapist (and also sexually assaulted Hannah in a previous episode, when they were in the store). Why is everyone, and especially Justin, protecting Brice to the point that Justin is wanting to kill Clay to prevent the story coming out? 

Bryce has to have a tape as Justin and company have repeatedly  mentioned making sure that Clay in addition to not telling anyone else, doesn't go to Bryce (which says that Bryce comes after Clay as each kids has handed the tapes off to one another in the order in which they appear in the narrative).

As for Byrce's apparent small role in the tale, I think Hannah is telling events in chronological order, not in order of importance, or horrible behavior as it were.  It is clear Hannah doesn't live much longer so she it painting the picture of how events in her life built up until even seemingly small things combined to become an avalanche that crushed her.

[Happytobehere]

On 4/3/2017 at 10:15 AM, DittyDotDot said:

I kept wondering why we hadn't seen Jeff in the present, too, but also didn't put it together until this episode. Once I realized where this was going, I did a big old "DUH!" because I remembered someone saying the school had lost two students in a short period of time earlier.

I realized it was Jeff the episode after the principal said the school lost two kids.  That stuck with me as well as the fact that the other kid wasn't named.  Yes, it was for the big reveal, but it also told me that the other death had to have been resolved to people's satisfaction, and it wasn't a suicide like Hannah.  When we started seeing Jeff with Clay more and saw him becoming a surrogate big brother to the kid mentoring him, I realized that especially in light of Clay's feeling for Hannah and Jeff's obvious awareness of those feelings that if Jeff were still around, we would be seeing him, so I concluded he died (I became convinced in the episode where Clay saw Hannah dead at the dance and we learned how she killed herself. The last time we see Clay see Hannah, he tuns to look at Jeff and there appears to be blood on his head, so when Jeff was drinking and asked Sherry to move her car, I knew what happened to him).  Too bad, as was noted previously Jeff was the most likable of the bunch. 

[Starving Writer]

I've watched the episodes up at this point.  I'm fairly sure that Clay is Tape #12 and Bryce is Tape #13, and that the tapes are passed on to the next person in order of which tape they were (so Justin was the first person to get the tapes, Jessica the second person, and so on), which is why Bryce hasn't heard of the tapes yet and why the other students are so hell bent on getting Clay to give up the tapes -- so that Bryce will be protected.

Now, off to see if I was right or not. 

[Bama]

On 4/14/2017 at 9:25 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

It was just galling that she [Courtney] kept insisting that Bryce MIGHT be innocent because she wanted so badly to stick to her "Hannah is a liar" story in order to deny that she was gay.

And I think that's what makes her the absolute WORST person at that table.

Put her words in any of the others' mouths and I could at least understand (not excuse or justify) why they would say such yucky things to save their own asses.  I mean look at what each one has to "lose" if all the things on the tapes come out -

-Tyler - possible criminal stalking/harassment charges

-Marcus - possible sexual assault charges

-Zach - possible loss of scholarship/college opportunities if he gets associated with bullying a girl into suicide

-Alex - looking like a jerk for that "Hot or Not" list

-Ryan - looking like a jerk for publishing Hannah's poem without permission 

-Courtney - people find out she is gay or bi-sexual

Of all the people at that "meeting", Courtney has the LEAST to lose and she is the one still vigorously defending a rapist and the other dirty shit.  Jessica/Justin/Sherri didn't go to the meeting and Clay, Bryce, and whoever is Tape 13 didn't get invited.

Maybe Courtney turns it around in the last episode but as of where I am now, there are others that I think are more evil than Courtney (Bryce) but Courtney is absolutely the one that makes me want to slap the shit out of her and then throw up.  She's so fucking gross.

[Artsda]

Aww Clay, I hate that he blamed himself and that Tony even put it on his shoulders. 

There was nothing he could do. He tried to talk to her in that moment and she didn't want to hear it. She yelled at him to GTFO and she wasn't calming down to rationally open up to him. 

[auntiemel]

5 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

Speaking as someone who has worked as a high school counselor, he absolutely failed. The moment she mentioned being tired of life, he should have asked her outright if she had been thinking of harming herself (and/or others) and immediately contacted her parents. She was clinically depressed and needed immediate parental and medical intervention.

Absolutely. I used to work as a teacher, and he made so many mistakes in that meeting. In addition to what you mentioned, he also broke the law when he didn't report Hannah's sexual violence outcry. In addition to informing the authorities, the school itself has to launch a Title IX investigation. They could keep Hannah's identity as confidential as possible, but they're legally bound to do it as soon as she reports.

[jeansheridan]

On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 9:28 AM, Winston9-DT3 said:

because it means the boy will not likely be one of the smallest in class, which can help them in sports and to avoid getting bullied.  

Interesting point because several times on the show Clay's allegedly smaller size is mentioned.  Hannah even calls him skinny and nervous.  So guys get teased for their bodies too.

Isay allegedly because I think the actor playing Clay looks quite fit and average height.  

[jeansheridan]

On 4/22/2017 at 6:19 PM, DangerousMinds said:

Speaking as someone who has worked as a high school counselor,

Since you have been a counselor,  I was wondering.  Should he have gotten a female coworker in as soon as the rape came up?  I know it would have ruined the flow of conversation but I felt uncomfortable there wasn't a woman there.

Kudos to the show though for making him so sympathetic on the surface.  Even well meaning people can blow it.  Now Steven Weber as the principal was just eeeeevil.  He does that well.  Heh.

 

On 4/16/2017 at 9:52 AM, Winston9-DT3 said:

My high school junior quit watching around ep 3 because the characters were too phony for her.  

Are there any TV shows that have "realistic" teens???? My So Called Life had several actors who were actual teens at the time of filming but other than Brian Krakow they were all ridiculously pretty.  But Claire Danes did have that coltish awkward teen energy.  The movie Thirteen felt realistic except none of the characters were like kids I knew growing up.  Freaks & Geeks had awkward kids down.  

Can you ask her which show she finds the most realistic?   I am truly curious. 

[Paloma]

On 4/20/2017 at 11:47 AM, Winston9-DT3 said:

I don't think it's very realistic that a new student as gorgeous, confident and outgoing as Hannah would've had trouble finding some good friends, either.  

I would have agreed with this if not for my own daughter's experience. She was attractive, smart, talented, and seemed to have a lot of friends and an active social life, but eventually I found out that she saw herself as inferior and without real friends. We did get her into counseling, but (like me) she has periodically struggled with depression and feelings of inadequacy even as an adult. But anyone superficially looking at her, talking to her, and seeing her success in life would never believe it. It's all about how you feel inside, and those feelings often do not match the positive image you project to others.

[Lady Calypso]

12 hours ago, Bama said:

Of all the people at that "meeting", Courtney has the LEAST to lose and she is the one still vigorously defending a rapist and the other dirty shit.  Jessica/Justin/Sherri didn't go to the meeting and Clay, Bryce, and whoever is Tape 13 didn't get invited.

I wouldn't say that she has the least to lose, because coming out is hard on anyone, and it sucks if she's forced to come out because of the tapes. However, she is wholly unlikable because of her fake kindness toward others and the fact that she's literally the only one actively defending a rapist. Like Alex said, "You're the only female here and you're defending a rapist." Everyone else believes that Bryce is a rapist BUT Courtney. So that is what makes her worse than almost everyone else that's part of the tapes (save for Bryce, of course, and arguably Marcus). 

[heatherchandler]

On 4/20/2017 at 10:47 AM, Winston9-DT3 said:

 

I don't think it's very realistic that a new student as gorgeous, confident and outgoing as Hannah would've had trouble finding some good friends, either.  Kids can be cruel, but they can also be very sweet and supportive.  

 

That's such a misconception, especially in high school.  So many people think this but it is just not true.  The most beautiful person may not be confident at all.  Like how confused people are that the "happiest person in the room" is usually the saddest.  Realizing this as an adult is eye-opening.

Edited April 23, 2017 by heatherchandler

[bilgistic]

As a former teenage girl, this show resonated with me. High school was hell. The only things that got me through were being on the dance team and the fact that my junior- and senior-year boyfriend went to a different high school.

Senior year, I was on the newspaper staff, and wrote a scathing column denouncing teenage drinking. I made a lot of enemies. I was a smart kid, so I was part of a popular clique, but very much on the fringes. I had a single mother whereas my "friends'" parents were all from married-parents' households, and were well off financially. Meanwhile, our water was being turned off and we qualified for government assistance.

I was also sexually assaulted several times, mostly in middle school, and was physically assaulted once in high school by my sophomore-year boyfriend, and raped when I was 22. I never reported a single incident. Being a female is hell.

I attempted suicide at age 17. I took a bunch of pills left over from a tooth extraction, but nothing happened beyond a long nap. I've actually been a depressive my entire life, and once I got away from home, was able to get treatment for myself. I have been medicated ever since. But in high school? My mother was too busy with two jobs to know what was going on with me, and I didn't want to burden her with my problems.

I can see that being the case with Hannah. She had to quit the theater to work at the pharmacy because they certainly couldn't afford to hire a paid staff member. They were struggling to pay rent.

I remember how truly crushing high school was. As a "smart" kid in honors classes, I had hours of homework a night, worked on weekends, and was utterly exhausted all the time. Work SUCKS, but no amount of money would make me go back do high school over.

It took me a while to get through the show, because it was so familiar. Bryce almost made me physically ill, because I have known that kid in school. I went to college to get away from home and to teach secondary English (but realized that was a fool's errand). I had the baseball star just like Bryce in my senior English class during student teaching. He was untouchable. He did no work and acted like an ass constantly, but I was not allowed to fail him. I was literally told by my cooperating teacher (the teacher whose classes I took over) that I couldn't fail him and had to do "creative accounting" to pass him.

High school is hell, and this show was a great depiction of it. People say that suicide is selfish, and my response is that the sufferer just wants the pain to stop, in any way possible. It's not meant to hurt anyone. You can't see beyond the black, choking monster enveloping you and just want it to end.

[Paloma]

1 hour ago, bilgistic said:

High school is hell, and this show was a great depiction of it. People say that suicide is selfish, and my response is that the sufferer just wants the pain to stop, in any way possible. It's not meant to hurt anyone. You can't see beyond the black, choking monster enveloping you and just want it to end.

I'm so sorry for what you experienced, but it's important that people know that Hannah's experience is not uncommon. Although I did not have the horrific experiences you did, I would also say that high school is hell and that this is not something new. My 50th (!!) reunion is next year, not that I would ever consider going to it, because I still remember and occasionally feel the pain of not being popular and not having a boyfriend (or even being asked out) in high school. The irony is that years later both female and male former classmates would tell me that they always thought I was pretty/nice/smart etc.--but all I felt like was an ugly loser. That self-image has affected me throughout my adult life, no matter how many good things have happened since. I wish I could go back and tell my high school self that things would get better soon (I blossomed in college), but my high school self couldn't have heard that lesson--just as Hannah could not see beyond the dark clouds.

[bilgistic]

I know the feeling. I look back at photos of myself (the few I allowed, like an idiot), and I was so pretty and thin. My feminist sensibilities bristle at identifying myself as that, but I felt like a fat toad back then. Oh, to have that shape now, 25 years later!

My 18-year-old niece is going through some horrific pain because my sister is an alcoholic and has been largely absent as a single mother. My niece has had to raise herself and her younger sister. This is a sad pattern that has repeated in our family for generations. I just want to grab them up and hug them tight and never let them go. It does get better, but damn if it never feels like it will.

[Happytobehere]

My heart breaks for Clay and Hannah.  Knowing that they were in love with one another, but neither one ever found themselves in the right place emotionally at the same time for them to get their happy.  Clay will forever wonder if he had the courage to say something if Hannah would still be alive.  That's so awful for him.  I actually would like Clay and Sheri to wind up together -- some happiness has to come from all this mess.

As for the kids, IMO, their awfulness ranks in the following order: 1) Bryce, 2) Courtney, 3) Marcus, 4) Taylor, 5) Justin, 6) Jessica (yes her rape was awful, but I'm just focused on their treatment of Hannah pre and post death), 7) Alex (6 & 7 were a toss up for me, but ultimately, Jessica's reaction to Alex's list helped give it life, and her turning on Hannah and blaming her was just awful, so judging on a Hannah scale, Jessica is a little bit worse), 8) Ryan (he's perhaps the one I am least sure of in terms of placement, simply because I keep forgetting about him, and it wasn't until I did a kid count, that I realized I omitted him), 9) Zach, 10) Sheri.

My heart also breaks for Jeff, such a loss of someone who appeared to be a genuinely good guy.

[Happytobehere]

I so want someone to have finally decided to take Bryce out.  We know Taylor (or is it Tyler) got a gun, and was big on the if Bryce goes down, we could escape culpability.

My personal feeling is that if it is a suicide attempt, it's Alex.  That scene in his room with his father with ehtidying up and his reaction to the father's comments made me think something was amiss and then we get the teen with the gunshot to the head.  I hope I'm wrong though, as I think Alex has really been beating himself up for the F'd up things he did to Jessica and Hannah and the chain of events that were the offshoots of his actions.

I almost forgot that Justin might be at Hannah levels of desperate given what just happened and Zach's not picking up his call.  He can't go to Bryce, Jeccis basically told him to drop dead. Alex isn't an option for a long-term living set-up, so he might feel that like Hannah, he has nothing and no-one left to live for.

It better not be Clay, the kid, who aside from Jeff, deserves to have something good happen to him.

 

On 4/15/2017 at 0:54 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

One thing that I found really sad was Hannah said that Bryce raping her made her reputation as a slut true. It makes me want to cry when I hear even fictional girls tie their worth to their sexuality. It makes me even angrier/sadder/more frustrated that any girl would think that being RAPED is a negative reflection on her. The moment when Hannah realized that Bryce wasn't going to stop and she just went dead eyed and limp was heart breaking. She knew there was no way to stop what was going to happen.

That was the moment that Hannah officially died.  Everything else were like slices into her soul, but that moment there was the equivalent of having someone tear open her chest and rip her heart out.  Bryce killed Hannah, as much as Hannah killed Hannah, because even if she wasn't already being weighed down by the rest of the ish in her life, being raped by the BMOC and feeling (and not incorrectly cause, rape culture is us), that if she told, she would be made the villain of the piece and Bryce the victim could have been enough to send even a happy and well adjusted person to where Hannah went.

 

On 4/22/2017 at 10:12 PM, Bama said:

And I think that's what makes her the absolute WORST person at that table.

Put her words in any of the others' mouths and I could at least understand (not excuse or justify) why they would say such yucky things to save their own asses.  I mean look at what each one has to "lose" if all the things on the tapes come out -

-Tyler - possible criminal stalking/harassment charges

-Marcus - possible sexual assault charges

-Zach - possible loss of scholarship/college opportunities if he gets associated with bullying a girl into suicide

-Alex - looking like a jerk for that "Hot or Not" list

-Ryan - looking like a jerk for publishing Hannah's poem without permission 

-Courtney - people find out she is gay or bi-sexual

Of all the people at that "meeting", Courtney has the LEAST to lose and she is the one still vigorously defending a rapist and the other dirty shit.  Jessica/Justin/Sherri didn't go to the meeting and Clay, Bryce, and whoever is Tape 13 didn't get invited.

Maybe Courtney turns it around in the last episode but as of where I am now, there are others that I think are more evil than Courtney (Bryce) but Courtney is absolutely the one that makes me want to slap the shit out of her and then throw up.  She's so fucking gross.

In the thread for episode 11, I listed Courtney right behind Bryce for being the absolute worst, followed by Marcus.  All three of them are awful, and while  she clearly is not a Bryce, in many ways she shows herself to be the worst in the room at all times, and given the levels of suck of these characters, that's truly saying something. Like you, I find her to be monsterous levels of awful.

On 4/23/2017 at 10:34 AM, Lady Calypso said:

I wouldn't say that she has the least to lose, because coming out is hard on anyone, and it sucks if she's forced to come out because of the tapes. However, she is wholly unlikable because of her fake kindness toward others and the fact that she's literally the only one actively defending a rapist. Like Alex said, "You're the only female here and you're defending a rapist." Everyone else believes that Bryce is a rapist BUT Courtney. So that is what makes her worse than almost everyone else that's part of the tapes (save for Bryce, of course, and arguably Marcus). 

The coming out excuse holds no water for me because she gleefully lied about Hannah being gay, outed her, added additional lying slander to the mix and continued laughing and talking about Hannah to deflect fro her ish, so , no, I feel no sympathy for the Woe is me, my life might be hard if the world found out I'm gay, even though I would still have the love and support of my gay dads. So F' Courtney she ranks right below Bryce as being a worthless, self-serving, vicious PoS.

Edited April 23, 2017 by Happytobehere

[Lady Calypso]

1 hour ago, Happytobehere said:

The coming out excuse holds no water for me because she gleefully lied about Hannah being gay, outed her, added additional lying slander to the mix and continued laughing and talking about Hannah to deflect fro her ish, so , no, I feel no sympathy for the Woe is me, my life might be hard if the world found out I'm gay, even though I would still have the love and support of my gay dads. So F' Courtney she ranks right below Bryce as being a worthless, self-serving, vicious PoS.

Oh, I definitely rank Courtney right below Bryce as well. I don't like her any more than I like Marcus. My point was really that she didn't have the least to lose. I'd say that they all had something to lose, which is why they believed themselves that they didn't deserve the tapes coming out. I'd say Ryan has the least to lose, but he even lost his magazine. I still won't like Courtney unless there's a season 2 and they find a way to redeem her fully. I just have a tiny amount of sympathy for anyone who is that afraid of coming out. Even with two gay dads, and even though she chose to lie about Hannah's sexuality to protect herself (and that is pretty awful in itself, which is another reason why she's the second worst person for me), it can still be hard to come out. I have more sympathy for others, but she's not at the Zero Sympathy level, where Bryce is.