Season 1 Talk

[shelley1234]

I felt for Zach in this episode.   I also think in the context of the show.....this episode had a lot of value.  I think people naturally get the story of the awkward student at school, the one who gets made fun of or slut shamed....and how that person may be depressed or suicidal.  However, I appreciate the point being made in this episode that students like Zach struggle too, even though you'd never know it from the outside looking in.    Zach's life looks perfect....but Hannah is right, he seems really lonely for actual, real friends.   I truly believe he was looking for that with Hannah.   I also don't judge him for not doing something with her letter.  He's a kid.   The school counselor couldn't even help her.   I think that's a lot to put on a 17 yr old kid.  I was happily surprised that the story didn't have him "outing" her letter to embarrass her.   It let me know that Zach did things that led to Hannah taking her own life...but that he's not a mean, horrible child.   

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I agree that Zach doesn't seem like a terrible person, and in spite of the fact that he is very popular, he doesn't seem like he is close to his friends or connected with them on more than a superficial level. He is friendly and good-natured, plus he is good looking and a good athlete so I can see why he is popular and why other people like him. When he sat down and talked with Hannah in the cafeteria, he seemed very sincere so I can understand why he was so hurt when Hannah lashed out at him.

Stealing the compliments out of her bag was petty and mean-spirited, but I feel like of all the things that were done to Hannah, this was the least shitty thing. It just doesn't compare to the kind of betrayal she felt from being abandoned and lied to by Alex and Jessica, the fear she felt as a result of being stalked by Tyler, or the outright lies that Courtney told about her. I'm not saying he's a saint or anything, but compared to the deliberately malicious things that everyone else did, stealing notes out of her compliment bag is small potatoes.

And of all the people on the tapes, he was one of the few who didn't seem like a completely self-centered asshole ready to mow her down to save his own ass. I'm pretty sure that if Courtney or Marcus had found that letter, they would have used it by now. The fact that Zach didn't throw it away AND didn't make it public tells me that he feels remorse, unlike some of these other jerks.

Edited April 18, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[CaughtOnTape]

I was disgusted with this entire series and sincerely hope no one shows it to their kids as some type of realistic portrayal of life.  I have never witnessed such glamorization of a subject in my life and am nervously awaiting the first reports of kids who committed suicide emulating this exact scenario in an attempt to ruin the lives of those they perceive have been mean, cruel or rude to them.  

Not to mention, there was entirely too much shit piled onto Hannah.  She was the new kid in school.  She had a jerk send around a disgusting picture and spread a rumor that she was a slut.  She lost two friends she considered her best friends after a misunderstanding.  She was objectified on a list.  She was sexually assaulted, she disappointed her parents who were already under a lot of stress, she saw a friend get raped (and did nothing to stop it), she was inappropriately grabbed by male students, she was humiliated.....

I mean Jesus Christ.

And I'm sorry but the thing with Justin not telling Jessica what happened to her was so contrived and ridiculous it was eye roll worthy.  Not to mention the extreme reaction from the rest of the kids to cover it up.  What did it matter to any of them if Bryce was outed as a rapist?  Even if it cast a spotlight on them, none of the things they were hiding were so earth shattering it required that level of a cover up.  

If anything, I suggest watching it with your kids and talking about the healthy ways you deal with these types of things rather than recording 13 tapes about what they did to you and then sending it around to everyone else so they know too.  Jessica didn't even do anything that bad, not as bad as say....sitting in a corner while you hear her getting raped and doing nothing about it.

Nope.  This was not realistic in any sense of the word IMO.  I would never let my kid watch it.  Good thing I'm not a parent.

[sara416]

On 4/15/2017 at 8:29 PM, Mama No Life said:

He's not the only one. Zach is nice, Sheri is nice, Justin isn't always nice but I get him.  That's the scary part....these kids aren't all assholes all day every day.  But one minute of being an ass can wreck someone.

Just hoping that Courtney gets hers.....she is right up there with Bryce in my book.

This is what I loved so much about the book, and what I am loving about this series. Almost no one is entirely to blame, and in the book most people did things that were not HUGE and mega damaging. And we see that a lot here as well. It shows a very nuanced portrait of teenagers and of the things they deal with which we don't always get with teen shows. In the real world, villians and heroes are not always clear cut. Very few people are all good or all bad, and we can all be assholes sometimes. We just don't know how that one time of being in a hurry, being dismissive, or being an asshole is going to pile on to the million other things that someone might be dealing with. 

[DittyDotDot]

10 minutes ago, sara416 said:

This is what I loved so much about the book, and what I am loving about this series. Almost no one is entirely to blame, and in the book most people did things that were not HUGE and mega damaging. And we see that a lot here as well. It shows a very nuanced portrait of teenagers and of the things they deal with which we don't always get with teen shows. In the real world, villians and heroes are not always clear cut. Very few people are all good or all bad, and we can all be assholes sometimes. We just don't know how that one time of being in a hurry, being dismissive, or being an asshole is going to pile on to the million other things that someone might be dealing with. 

Yeah, I was recommending the show to a friend with teenagers, he asked me if the show made it out to be these kids fault. I told him I thought the show was saying it was everyone's fault and no one's fault.

[shelley1234]

I do really feel for Jessica who has to have 12 other people listen to the story of how she was raped.  Just like what was done to Hannah was not right, neither is that.   

I'd say I don't understand why everyone is protecting Bryce, but rape culture is pervasive.  I didn't read the book, but I did watch the mini "behind the scenes" so I am a little bit spoiled about what is coming next, but I just can't see how I can agree with Tony that anything coming next would make me not want to make Bryce pay for ALL that he has done.  

[auntiemel]

On 3/31/2017 at 7:42 PM, SnoGirl said:

This episode broke my heart. Clay not telling his parents anything and crying in the shower was awful. I feel like my high school experience was such an anomaly, I was super introverted but still talked to my parents a lot. They knew everything. He's carrying such a burden, its hard to watch.

Not just you, my sister and I talked to our mom about pretty much everything, and still do. But I think it also has to do with your particular parents. My mom is a really fun person, and a great listener. She's also really insightful and gives great advice. She's always been known for that at every job she's ever worked at, people just want to talk to her about everything.

So, my sister and I lucked out because, as a person, she's just really easy to talk to and offers very realistic real-world advice. Even when we were teenagers, she didn't give out the standard platitudes that most adults did, she gave solid, workable interpersonal strategies that would be effective for teenage dickheads.

Edited April 19, 2017 by auntiemel

[auntiemel]

I think Kate Walsh, especially, has captured a very affecting zombie-like hollowness behind the eyes, like nothing she's seeing or hearing or touching is real, and she's just grasping so hard for some kind of anchor to bring her back to reality, something to make the world make sense again. It's so much more dimensional and nuanced than just "sad" or even "despairing." She moves like every step hurts her bones. She's doing such great work!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I agree. I'm used to seeing her as confident, polished, and glamorous as Addison on Grey's Anatomy. She did an amazing job playing Hannah's mom - broken, numb, yet still on the verge of screaming. And she also does a great job contrasting that with the way the plays Hannah's mom in the flashbacks - happy, vivacious, etc.

[auntiemel]

I think what's interesting about a lot of these stories is that they're all different variations of a similar theme. Someone violating Hannah's boundaries, someone deciding to use her for their own purposes, and then justifying afterward how those actions weren't that bad because they weren't being malicious/it was a compliment/she should "just relax"/it wasn't that big a deal, etc. Which is, in its way, even more damaging than the action itself.

Then, it's also interesting that even other characters who should ostensibly be on Hannah's side buy into that narrative as well. Even Hannah's father, when her mother showed him the "best ass" list, said, "That's a compliment!" and her mom looked at him like he was out of his mind. He really had no clue what it meant to be objectified like that.

I think the show is doing a really good job of showing how painful boundary violations can be, and how they can snowball--both in the mind and soul of the person who is the target, and also in the community at large once the "whole school" thinks of the girl as a "slut."

I think it's also doing a great job of showing, both in the characters and the audience, how people will witness a boundary violation and then seek to minimize it by making a value judgement about how severe or not the infraction was, or the relative level of malicious intent that the violator had.

Edited April 23, 2017 by auntiemel

[shelley1234]

I agree with the rest that there is no way that they didn't do a blood test on Jeff after the accident.   I'll take it as something that led the drama of Sheri's story that just isn't based in reality.   In many states....if someone gives alcohol to someone who is under age and that person ends up hurting someone while drunk, the person who gave the person the alcohol can also be criminally charged.  

[shelley1234]

On 4/15/2017 at 9:29 PM, Mama No Life said:

He's not the only one. Zach is nice, Sheri is nice, Justin isn't always nice but I get him.  That's the scary part....these kids aren't all assholes all day every day.  But one minute of being an ass can wreck someone.

Just hoping that Courtney gets hers.....she is right up there with Bryce in my book.

 

Yeah, I think that the show did this well.   Those kids cruelty brought Hannah to the point that suicide felt like her only option.  A few of the kids are absolute villains.  IMO Courtney, Marcus, Bryce.   However many if not most were much more complex.   If we all think back on our high school days, I am sure we ALL could think of moments that we did something that could land us on someone's tragic tape of reasons why.  

I do understand not only why Justin behaved the way he did after the rape.  One, I do believe he thought he was protecting Jessica.  If she didn't remember then in his mind, since he couldn't protect her from the rape (he did try to go in and pull Bryce off of her) then he could at least try to protect her from the emotional aftermath.   Not right, but I get it.   I also can understand why he would stay connected to Bryce.   Bryce is a vile person, but given Justin's life....throwing Bryce away is throwing away someone who took him in when his home life turned bad, turned violent.   When going to Bryce's no longer felt like an option and Justin had nowhere to go.....he was left with so few options that he had to go to Alex's house.  Alex.  Alex isn't his friend, but he had nowhere to go.   Justin staying cool with Bryce was self-preservation and kids who live in environments like his....I can get that.   

And Clay.  Oh Clay.  Yes, maybe if you said the right thing or did the right thing, you could have "saved" Hannah.   But you also listened to what she said and left when she said she didn't want you there.   However, I don't exactly believe in his make believe "what I would have should have said" conversation that Hannah would have responded like that.   I think she would have screamed him out the door no matter what.   

[ElectricBoogaloo]

11 minutes ago, shelley1234 said:

And Clay.  Oh Clay.  Yes, maybe if you said the right thing or did the right thing, you could have "saved" Hannah.   But you also listened to what she said and left when she said she didn't want you there.   However, I don't exactly believe in his make believe "what I would have should have said" conversation that Hannah would have responded like that.   I think she would have screamed him out the door no matter what.  

ITA - he respected her wishes by doing what she told him to do, which was to get out and leave her alone. It was not his responsibility to read her mind and know that part of her wanted him to stay. He tried to stay and find out what was wrong but she kept telling him to leave and she was going to keep telling him to leave no matter what he said. I understand why he wants to imagine that if he had just found the right words, he could have saved her but the reality is that even if he had given her that speech, she wouldn't have stopped telling him to leave long enough to hear what he was trying to say. I hope that he is able to forgive himself for not knowing the perfect thing to say in that moment. That's a pretty big burden for someone to carry.

[Jax7917]

I do feel bad for Hannah obviously, but I just can't seem to connect with her character or care much about her. Although she has gotten better throughout the episodes so far.

I also don't buy that everyone sees Clay as the geek, unattractive guy. I find him to be a good looking guy. They make it seem like hes so scrawny , yet Alex and Justin are both scrawnier.

[MV007]

I don't think the "rape culture" has anything to do with these characters not wanting to come forward.  This is about self-preservation.  They are deeply embarrassed by their actions and don't want anyone to know about it.  Also, Justin and Jessica have denied it happened throughout the series.

[MV007]

10 hours ago, shelley1234 said:

Yeah, I think that the show did this well.   Those kids cruelty brought Hannah to the point that suicide felt like her only option.  A few of the kids are absolute villains.  IMO Courtney, Marcus, Bryce.   However many if not most were much more complex.   If we all think back on our high school days, I am sure we ALL could think of moments that we did something that could land us on someone's tragic tape of reasons why.  

I do understand not only why Justin behaved the way he did after the rape.  One, I do believe he thought he was protecting Jessica.  If she didn't remember then in his mind, since he couldn't protect her from the rape (he did try to go in and pull Bryce off of her) then he could at least try to protect her from the emotional aftermath.   Not right, but I get it.   I also can understand why he would stay connected to Bryce.   Bryce is a vile person, but given Justin's life....throwing Bryce away is throwing away someone who took him in when his home life turned bad, turned violent.   When going to Bryce's no longer felt like an option and Justin had nowhere to go.....he was left with so few options that he had to go to Alex's house.  Alex.  Alex isn't his friend, but he had nowhere to go.   Justin staying cool with Bryce was self-preservation and kids who live in environments like his....I can get that.   

For me, Justin is right behind Bryce in the pecking order.  Maybe tied with Marcus.  He chose not to stop Bryce.  That is a pretty horrific decision.  I can put myself in Alex's shoes and say to myself, maybe I would've done that.  Even Courtney, I have no idea what it's like to be gay so I won't condemn someone acting that way over possibly being outed.  But Justin?  I can't see that.  I know he's been screwed by his family situation but there is no excuse for what he did.  

[MV007]

I don't think thats how everyone sees Clay.  I think we're supposed to see that everyone likes Clay.  But that he is a bit of an outcast by his own doing.  He doesn't socialize despite everyone seemingly liking him.  I think he's supposed to be awkward but endearing to his peers.

Edited April 19, 2017 by MV007

[cryptaknight]

It's funny you say it's not a realistic show, because with the exception of hearing someone get raped, I went through pretty much everything Hannah did (or the mid-90s equivalent) when I was a teenager. I was suicidal, and the only reason I wasn't successful was because my boyfriend interrupted me and took me to the hospital. Some people have very different experiences of high school than others. 

I really liked the series. Parts were tough to watch and a lot of old trauma was dredged up, but it was worthwhile. Kids need to know that they are not alone, that shitty things happen to so many people, and that sometimes things are not always as they appear. I think the show was clear that so many people did care about Hannah, even some of the people that hurt her, and that what she did left a lot of wreckage in its wake.

[shelley1234]

1 hour ago, MV007 said:

For me, Justin is right behind Bryce in the pecking order.  Maybe tied with Marcus.  He chose not to stop Bryce.  That is a pretty horrific decision.  I can put myself in Alex's shoes and say to myself, maybe I would've done that.  Even Courtney, I have no idea what it's like to be gay so I won't condemn someone acting that way over possibly being outed.  But Justin?  I can't see that.  I know he's been screwed by his family situation but there is no excuse for what he did.  

 

Justin chose not to stop Bryce?  He knocked, entered the room, tried to grab Bryce off of her and then was shoved back, shoved out of the door and Bryce locked the door behind him.   That's not doing nothing in my book.   Could he or should he have done more?   Yes, absolutely.   But I can't co-sign he chose to do nothing.   

[Bobcatkitten]

Does anyone have any theories why Clay keeps telling people he didn't really know Hannah? Clearly he knew her very well, hung out at work, at dances, in school. Is it a defense mechanism for him? Like - he says he didn't know her well so he doesn't feel guilty about not knowing she was going to kill herself? 

Edited April 20, 2017 by scribe95

[Paloma]

2 hours ago, shelley1234 said:

3 hours ago, MV007 said:

For me, Justin is right behind Bryce in the pecking order.  Maybe tied with Marcus.  He chose not to stop Bryce.  That is a pretty horrific decision.  I can put myself in Alex's shoes and say to myself, maybe I would've done that.  Even Courtney, I have no idea what it's like to be gay so I won't condemn someone acting that way over possibly being outed.  But Justin?  I can't see that.  I know he's been screwed by his family situation but there is no excuse for what he did.  

 

Justin chose not to stop Bryce?  He knocked, entered the room, tried to grab Bryce off of her and then was shoved back, shoved out of the door and Bryce locked the door behind him.   That's not doing nothing in my book.   Could he or should he have done more?   Yes, absolutely.   But I can't co-sign he chose to do nothing.   

But wasn't there a brief exchange between Bryce and Justin at the door before Bryce went in, when Bryce said something suggesting that they could share Jessica (something like "what's mine is yours")? Maybe I'm mis-remembering, but I thought Justin felt guilty not just because he didn't stop Bryce (and then lied to Jessica) but because he was complicit in allowing Bryce to go in the room in the first place. Of course, they were both drunk and/or high, but I think Justin knew what Bryce intended to do and did not initially make an effort to stop him.

[shelley1234]

26 minutes ago, Paloma said:

But wasn't there a brief exchange between Bryce and Justin at the door before Bryce went in, when Bryce said something suggesting that they could share Jessica (something like "what's mine is yours")? Maybe I'm mis-remembering, but I thought Justin felt guilty not just because he didn't stop Bryce (and then lied to Jessica) but because he was complicit in allowing Bryce to go in the room in the first place. Of course, they were both drunk and/or high, but I think Justin knew what Bryce intended to do and did not initially make an effort to stop him.

 

There was....and hence he could have and should have done more.   Justin should have told him to go to hell and get bent.   He didn't for reasons that aren't right, but become clear as the tapes continue.  But Justin didn't rape Jessica.   And he tried to hold the door closed when Bryce first went in.   He also broke in and tried to stop him and failed.  

The other thing Justin didn't do...and it feels gross and creepy to give him credit for not being an opportunistic rapist himself, but here I go.   How I expected that scene to go down is that Jessica passes out while they are fooling around.   Justin decides to fuck her anyways since she sent him enough yes signals before she passed out.   He leaves.   Bryce comes in and she gets raped a second time.   I was actually shocked when the scene showed Justin getting off her and heading for the door.  I know.  Bar set real low, but it's more than I expected from him at the time.  

[DittyDotDot]

I can't remember who right now, but someone once told me that he tries not to judge a person for their mistakes, but only by what they do to make up for their mistakes. For me, Bryce is the only one I can say I feel is passed the point of redemption. He not only can't admit what he did was wrong, but actually thinks he was right. But, most of the other kids at least owned up to their own actions in the end and some of them even tried to make amends.

So, while I consider what Justin did completely deplorable, Justin at least took responsibility for what he did and was trying to do do right by Jessica after he failed to stop Bryce, even if he went about it completely wrong. Granted, it doesn't make what he did right, but nothing can ever make that right. 

[DittyDotDot]

3 hours ago, scribe95 said:

Does anyone have any theories why Clay keeps telling people he didn't really know Hannah? Clearly he knew her very well, hung out at work, at dances, in school. Is it a defense mechanism for him? Like - he says he didn't know her well so he doesn't feel guilty about not knowing she was going to kill herself? 

I thought he was just telling his parents he didn't know her very well so they wouldn't worry about him more than they already do. 

[niklj]

@cryptaknight Thank you for sharing your story. 

The writer of Episode 6 actually wrote about why he thought it was actually the best decision to show Hannah's death as graphically as they did (which I agree with): http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/04/13-reasons-why-suicide-controversy-nic-sheff-writer

Quote

So when it came time to discuss the portrayal of the protagonist’s suicide in 13 Reasons Why, I of course immediately flashed on my own experience. It seemed to me the perfect opportunity to show what an actual suicide really looks like—to dispel the myth of the quiet drifting off, and to make viewers face the reality of what happens when you jump from a burning building into something much, much worse.

It overwhelmingly seems to me that the most irresponsible thing we could’ve done would have been not to show the death at all. In AA, they call it playing the tape: encouraging alcoholics to really think through in detail the exact sequence of events that will occur after relapse. It’s the same thing with suicide. To play the tape through is to see the ultimate reality that suicide is not a relief at all—it’s a screaming, agonizing, horror.

Edited April 20, 2017 by niklj

[ElectricBoogaloo]

As far as I remember he only claimed not to know Hannah when speaking with adults. The kids around school all knew that Clay and Hannah knew each other so there was no point in lying about that to them.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

7 hours ago, shelley1234 said:

The other thing Justin didn't do...and it feels gross and creepy to give him credit for not being an opportunistic rapist himself, but here I go.   How I expected that scene to go down is that Jessica passes out while they are fooling around.   Justin decides to fuck her anyways since she sent him enough yes signals before she passed out.   He leaves.   Bryce comes in and she gets raped a second time.   I was actually shocked when the scene showed Justin getting off her and heading for the door.  I know.  Bar set real low, but it's more than I expected from him at the time.  

I was expecting that too, especially since when she started to pass out, he said, "Don't you want to fool around?" No, dumbass, she's about to lose consciousness. The only thing she wants is to fall asleep. So I was surprised (in a good way) when he stopped and got off the bed. I totally agree with you though - the Justin bar was set so low that we're just happy he didn't rape his passed out girlfriend. This brings me back to the tried and true Chris Rock bit about not getting credit for things you're supposed to do.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I agree that the individual events that happened to Hannah (and other characters) on this show were realistic depictions of what happens to teenagers, and not just now - as @cryptaknight said, these things have been happening for years. Some of it is more technology specific (like the picture of Hannah being texted to everyone) but being groped, having people tell lies to start rumors, being stalked, being slut shamed, and being raped are all things that actually happen to teenagers. Unfortunately, these aren't rare occurrences. For people who don't relate to the show because they didn't experience these things, it's important not to minimize the events as unrealistic. This shit happens EVERY DAY.

[Jax7917]

On 4/19/2017 at 3:23 AM, auntiemel said:

I think what's interesting about a lot of these stories is that they're all different variations of a similar theme. Someone violating Hannah's boundaries, someone deciding to use her for their own purposes, and then justifying afterward how those actions weren't that bad because they weren't being malicious/it was a compliment/she should "just relax"/it wasn't that big a deal, etc. Which is, in its way, even more damaging than the action itself.

Then, it's also interesting that even other characters who should ostensibly be on Hannah's side buy into that narrative as well. Even Hannah's father, when his mother showed him the "best ass" list, said, "That's a compliment!" and her mom looked at him like he was out of his mind. He really had no clue what it meant to be objectified like that.

I think the show is doing a really good job of showing how painful boundary violations can be, and how they can snowball--both in the mind and soul of the person who is the target, and also in the community at large once the "whole school" thinks of the girl as a "slut."

I think it's also doing a great job of showing, both in the characters and the audience, how people will witness a boundary violation and then seek to minimize it by making a value judgement about how severe or not the infraction was, or the relative level of malicious intent that the violator had.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing, and I definitely think what is humiliating and horrible for people is relative to their state of mind and different for everybody, however I do think Hannah blaming all of these people for being the reason she kills herself is very selfish and just as bad if not worse than what many of those people did. At this point, her perspective is just that anyone and everyone is against her. Not saying she doesn't get bullied, but a couple of those stories I'm sitting there watching and thinking that she's just trying to find anyone to blame. She starts off every tape saying that this and that person betrayed her, when I don't see that in all of the tapes. Not everyone is being malicious, and she seems to have a good friend in Tony and Clay which she doesn't really acknowledge.

[truthaboutluv]

4 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

This shit happens EVERY DAY.

And made a million times worse with the advent of the Internet and more importantly, social media where a person can be harassed and bullied mercilessly with the simple swipe and tap of a phone. 

[RainbowBrite]

With the exception of a photo being circulated, all of the things that happened to Hannah happened to me. I dealt with it very differently though, to the point that I actually hadn't thought about the sexual assault in years and it only occurred to me after watching this, that that is what it actually was. It's crazy!! It happened to me 18 years ago, and I'm just now putting a name to it. This show's depiction of teenage years is very realistic to me. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

41 minutes ago, Jaclyn88 said:

Not everyone is being malicious

You don't have to be a mwahahaha mustache twirling villain in order to intentionally be a dick to someone.

Bryce sent a picture of Hannah to everyone in school. Justin, knowing the truth, did nothing to stop him or set the record straight. That's a dick move. He'd rather let the whole school believe that they had sex at the playground than stand up to Bryce or admit that they only kissed. Alex and Jessica hid their relationship from Hannah. That's a dick move.

Alex put both of them on the hot or not list to get back at Jessica for not having sex with him. That's a dick move and malicious towards both Hannah and Jessica.

Tyler stalked Hannah and took photos of her which is not only dickish and creepy but illegal. When she found out and confronted him, he had the absolute gall to ask if she wanted to hang out with her stalker. When she very logically said no, he sent one of his stalker pictures to everyone in school. That's malicious.

Courtney not only confirmed the LIES about Hannah being a slut started by the Justin/Bryce photo/rumors but then threw in some extra stuff for added measure. That's malicious.

Marcus stood Hannah up for two hours, tried to finger bang her in a restaurant, and then made a scene and slut shamed her. That's malicious AND sexual assault.

Zach stole all the notes from her compliment bag because she rejected him. That's a dick move.

Ryan stole her poem and published it, knowing that she had explicitly said she didn't want anyone outside of the poetry group to read it. That's a huge invasion of privacy and a dick move.

To me, that's not Hannah grasping at straws. That's Hannah enumerating the ways that people, many of whom were supposed to be her friends, were DICKS to her. None of these people had positive intentions when they did these things and they weren't accidents, like bumping into someone and spilling a drink on them.

[MV007]

16 hours ago, shelley1234 said:

Justin chose not to stop Bryce?  He knocked, entered the room, tried to grab Bryce off of her and then was shoved back, shoved out of the door and Bryce locked the door behind him.   That's not doing nothing in my book.   Could he or should he have done more?   Yes, absolutely.   But I can't co-sign he chose to do nothing.   

We can agree to disagree about Justin.  Yes he didn't literally do nothing.  But he knew what was happening and he didn't do enough to stop it.  Which in my opinion makes him worse then everyone except Bryce and possibly Marcus.  Thats my only point.

[Paloma]

36 minutes ago, Jaclyn88 said:

At this point, her perspective is just that anyone and everyone is against her. Not saying she doesn't get bullied, but a couple of those stories I'm sitting there watching and thinking that she's just trying to find anyone to blame. She starts off every tape saying that this and that person betrayed her, when I don't see that in all of the tapes. Not everyone is being malicious, and she seems to have a good friend in Tony and Clay which she doesn't really acknowledge.

But when you are seriously depressed, it can be impossible to see anything except your negative perspective. Maybe TMI here, but I have struggled with depression my whole life, with occasional suicidal thoughts though never actually attempting. When at my lowest points, I have felt that nobody loves me or even likes me, despite evidence to the contrary which I can see when I pull myself out of the emotional hole (or am helped out of it with therapy). Mostly I have blamed myself for these feelings, but sometimes I attribute feelings to others that may not be accurate. For example, as an adult I developed a friendship a few years ago that at first seemed great, but after a couple of years it ended because she stopped calling. I decided that she didn't want to be around me anymore because she is slim and always perfectly dressed, with perfect hair and makeup, while I am overweight and the opposite in terms of dress, hair, and makeup. If I were a teenager, I might have considered her ending the friendship for these reasons a betrayal or at least very hurtful. But as an adult I was eventually able to see that she didn't really end the friendship unilaterally--I had actually been pulling away for a while because I was annoyed with some things she did and said (not related to how either one of us dressed or looked). So she might have blamed me for ending the friendship!

My point is that Hannah may seem to be unfair in blaming all these people for why she kills herself and in not acknowledging the people who really do care about her, but she is actually unable to see it another way in her state of mind.

[MV007]

10 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

You don't have to be a mwahahaha mustache twirling villain in order to intentionally be a dick to someone.

Bryce sent a picture of Hannah to everyone in school. Justin, knowing the truth, did nothing to stop him or set the record straight. That's a dick move. He'd rather let the whole school believe that they had sex at the playground than stand up to Bryce or admit that they only kissed. Alex and Jessica hid their relationship from Hannah. That's a dick move.

Alex put both of them on the hot or not list to get back at Jessica for not having sex with him. That's a dick move and malicious towards both Hannah and Jessica.

Tyler stalked Hannah and took photos of her which is not only dickish and creepy but illegal. When she found out and confronted him, he had the absolute gall to ask if she wanted to hang out with her stalker. When she very logically said no, he sent one of his stalker pictures to everyone in school. That's malicious.

Courtney not only confirmed the LIES about Hannah being a slut started by the Justin/Bryce photo/rumors but then threw in some extra stuff for added measure. That's malicious.

Marcus stood Hannah up for two hours, tried to finger bang her in a restaurant, and then made a scene and slut shamed her. That's malicious AND sexual assault.

Zach stole all the notes from her compliment bag because she rejected him. That's a dick move.

Ryan stole her poem and published it, knowing that she had explicitly said she didn't want anyone outside of the poetry group to read it. That's a huge invasion of privacy and a dick move.

To me, that's not Hannah grasping at straws. That's Hannah enumerating the ways that people, many of whom were supposed to be her friends, were DICKS to her. None of these people had positive intentions when they did these things and they weren't accidents, like bumping into someone and spilling a drink on them.

Well, when you put it like that... 

Oh wait thats the truth.  I think these kids were clearly aholes to Hannah.  That doesn't make them all terrible terrible people.  It means that they engaged in terrible behavior at an age when many people do and are just not mature enough to recognize it as being super destructive.  Hence the need for this book and show imo.

[Guest]

Replying in the last ep thread...

[Guest]

I agree, Justin could've done more.  I don't think Bryce could've continued if Justin had made enough of a clatter banging on the door, for example.  It was just an interior door, too.  He probably could've broken it.  And Hannah should've done something.  

[Guest]

My child of that age didn't find it very realistic.  She wouldn't have kept trying to socialize/date/fit in with that crowd after the first diss of Justin's and Jessica's.  Not that all kids would react the same.  

I don't think it's very realistic that a new student as gorgeous, confident and outgoing as Hannah would've had trouble finding some good friends, either.  Kids can be cruel, but they can also be very sweet and supportive.  

54 minutes ago, Paloma said:

But when you are seriously depressed, it can be impossible to see anything except your negative perspective.

I think this is why they put in the part about Zach not throwing the note away-- to show that Hannah sees things through a negative lens because she's depressed.  

[Mama No Life]

Justin could have done much more.  He made a half-hearted attempt to stop him but could not stand up to Bryce when push came to shove because he was too dependent on Bryce.  Why he needs him is another heartbreaking story, sure, but Justin let Bryce rape his girlfriend. This is not a 'agree/disagree', shades of grey thing.  That's why girls get assaulted every day, because people refuse to acknowledge that consent is a requirement.  

Speaking of making amends/forgiveness, did we ever see Courtney attempt either?  I can't remember exactly what she said in the deposition, but  she seemed resigned, not regretful.  She was just awful, and probably just below Bryce and Marcus in the severity of her crimes.

[MV007]

I don't think the point of the show is to tell us Hannah is better then these people.  We can all have differing opinions on what kind of person Hannah was.  But in the end, she didn't deserve any of the crap she got and for me, thats what this is about.  If people really thought about their actions before doing them, especially if the action is mean-spirited then maybe at the very least they'd think twice.

[MV007]

1 hour ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

My child of that age didn't find it very realistic.  She wouldn't have kept trying to socialize/date/fit in with that crowd after the first diss of Justin's and Jessica's.  Not that all kids would react the same.  

I don't think it's very realistic that a new student as gorgeous, confident and outgoing as Hannah would've had trouble finding some good friends, either.  Kids can be cruel, but they can also be very sweet and supportive.  

Is it possible we're falling into the same trap that other posters have blamed Hannah for?  I've seen multiple people bring up that the one tape for each sin balances them all out equally.  When in reality, I would guess her rape and Jessica's rape far outweighed the others in her decision making process.  So while I can see what your saying regarding this confident, gorgeous, outgoing girl must surely be able to find people she can rely on, I also think that at some point these things might not matter when you've had such a traumatic experience. 

[calliope1975]

10 minutes ago, MV007 said:

Is it possible we're falling into the same trap that other posters have blamed Hannah for?  I've seen multiple people bring up that the one tape for each sin balances them all out equally.  When in reality, I would guess her rape and Jessica's rape far outweighed the others in her decision making process.  So while I can see what your saying regarding this confident, gorgeous, outgoing girl must surely be able to find people she can rely on, I also think that at some point these things might not matter when you've had such a traumatic experience. 

Probable. After the rape when she made that chart, I think she was trying to figure out how she got to that mindset. Every little thing at the beginning built on top of the big things towards the end to make living unbearable for Hannah. And I don't think Hannah's blameless nor did I feel the show presented her as such.

I think the ultimate takeaway for me is what Clay said to Mr. Porter - we all have to be better. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

59 minutes ago, MV007 said:

I don't think the point of the show is to tell us Hannah is better then these people.  We can all have differing opinions on what kind of person Hannah was.  But in the end, she didn't deserve any of the crap she got and for me, thats what this is about.  If people really thought about their actions before doing them, especially if the action is mean-spirited then maybe at the very least they'd think twice.

ITA - there is no question in my mind about that. Hannah wasn't fundamentally better than the rest of them (well, maybe one or two of them) but the point is that no one deserves to be treated like shit. (On a related note, the central case on Broadchurch this season was about a rape and even though the person it happened to was by no means a saint, whatever failings she had didn't mean she deserved to be raped, and I kept thinking about that character as I watched 13 Reasons Why because it reminded me of Hannah's situation - you can make a lot of poor decisions and still not deserve to be treated like garbage.) Hannah is a flawed human like everyone else and she made mistakes/bad choices, but that doesn't mean she deserved to have kids at school cavalierly treating her as they did and then denying any responsibility for their actions. No, there isn't one person who is solely and directly responsible for her suicide but they are all responsible for treating her like shit in various ways, which many of them refuse to acknowledge. At this point in the show (episode 8), how many of the people on the tapes have shown even the slightest bit of remorse about what they did?

Edited April 20, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I don't recall Courtney making any indication to ANYONE that she was sorry for what she had done. But FYI - I'm 99% sure that all of the depositions happened in the last episode (two episodes after this one), so you might not want to say anymore about it here.

[rho]

1 hour ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I agree, Justin could've done more.  I don't think Bryce could've continued if Justin had made enough of a clatter banging on the door, for example.  It was just an interior door, too.  He probably could've broken it.  And Hannah should've done something.  

I wonder if this tape or Justin's second tape (9) was really more of Hannah's tape. She reveals a lot about her own shortcomings in both episodes. I wonder if leaving the tapes behind was a misguided attempt to absolve herself of guilt. She is quite nonchalant when she says it out loud but I can't imagine being in that position and not being distraught. Didn't read the books so maybe there was more that didn't make the series.

The premise presents so many problems for me and as much as I sympathize with the conflicting emotions of a 16yo girl, I have trouble suspending disbelief and wrapping my head around her sitting down to record these tapes, processing all of those memories and not deciding to take action while she was still alive.

[Guest]

I have trouble with that, too.  The tone of the tapes was mostly an angry, wronged girl, but those people tend to seek revenge or get clear of the hateful people, not blame themselves and commit suicide.  And 6-13 hours(?) is a lot of talk therapy, even talking to yourself.  

[DittyDotDot]

37 minutes ago, rho said:

I wonder if this tape or Justin's second tape (9) was really more of Hannah's tape. She reveals a lot about her own shortcomings in both episodes. I wonder if leaving the tapes behind was a misguided attempt to absolve herself of guilt.

That's my assessment. As I've said before, IMO, Hannah really wasn't any different than most the other kids. She made mistakes too and part of why she killed herself wasn't just because people were mean to her, but she had come to believe that everything she touched turned bad--as though the world would be better off without her.

[MV007]

52 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

That's my assessment. As I've said before, IMO, Hannah really wasn't any different than most the other kids. She made mistakes too and part of why she killed herself wasn't just because people were mean to her, but she had come to believe that everything she touched turned bad--as though the world would be better off without her.

I think that was perfectly illustrated in this episode when she pushed Clay away and told him on the tape that she would ruin him.  Unfortunately she probably ruined him far worse with this action.

Edited April 20, 2017 by MV007

[auntiemel]

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I(On a related note, the central case on Broadchurch this season was about a rape and even though the person it happened to was by no means a saint, whatever failings she had didn't mean she deserved to be raped, and I kept thinking about that character as I watched 13 Reasons Why because it reminded me of Hannah's situation - you can make a lot of poor decisions and still not deserve to be treated like garbage.)

That's crazy, I also simul-watched the third series of Broadchurch during 13 Reasons Why! I noticed a lot of similar themes, and a lot of situations that seemed kind of like Sliding Doors alternate realities.

[Mama No Life]

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I don't recall Courtney making any indication to ANYONE that she was sorry for what she had done. But FYI - I'm 99% sure that all of the depositions happened in the last episode (two episodes after this one), so you might not want to say anymore about it here.

Oh good point...I forget which thread I'm on sometimes!