Season 1 Talk

[Happytobehere]

On 4/1/2017 at 8:44 PM, ban1o said:

Yeah I did really feel for Alex. Actually thinking back he was clearly suicidal the whole time. He had no friends, getting into a fight with that kid, pulling out of school activities. The scene where he randomly started speeding in the car with the boys. And although he was kind of a jerk I truly felt bad for him. All he did was make a list. He had a lot of toxic masculinity at his home from his dad and bother and nowhere to express his emotion. And he truly loved Jessica who wouldn't take him back and he messed up the only true friendships he had. 

And yeah it def seems they are setting up Tyler to be a school shooter. They really did a lot of setting up for season 2. I kind of want to see it. Too many unfinished storylines. I also want to see what happens to Justin and especially Jessica. 

Yes.  The sad thing was as we watched a show about a teen who opted out and the clear signs that it was coming and how everyone missed it, it was clear that Alex was teetering.  Heck, he even monetioned killing himself and neither we the viewers, or the other characters caught it because we were so focused on the awful of the group of kids and the coverup.

Tyler (who I mistakenly kept calling Taylor) is so clearly on the edge in terms of his not taking it anymore.  I agree that unlike Hannah, he will direct his anger outward.  I hadnt' even considered another poster's idea that maybe the reason Tyler took Alex's picture down was because he shot Tyler.  Seeing where Alex was at, i speculated in the thread for the previous episode that he was the one to try and kill himself as that scene with his father seemed off for some reason.

Courtney remained Courtney throughout, even assface Marcus seemed to be in favor of coming clean.  I wish Jessica had not lied about the tapes, but she was blindsided by them knowing and she clearly needed to collect herself to speak her truth to her father.  I think that if she had acknowledged the existence of the tapes and been asked, she might have broken, and she wasn't ready to go there in her own right, let alone in front of her dad.

I wonder how Hannah's parents ae going to react to the tapes, they need to know, but do they really want to hear what happened, and the clueless role they played, from ignoring the many signs that something was wrong with their daughter; not addressing Hannah's desire to move; not speaking to her when she was repeatedly commenting on her lack of popularity; sending her to the party that really signaled the beginning of the end, when she was clearly desperate for a reason not to go -- who volunteers to stay home and do schoolwork rather than go to a party; and so on.

I actually would have liked to see Mr. Porter's reaction to his tape. His tears during his conversation with Clay spoke volumes for his own state of mind and sense of guilt regarding Hannah's death.  While he wasn't the best counselor, I do feel that in some ways, Hannah did set Mr. Porter up to fail on that final day.  If you know he is trying to work with you and he is telling you that absent actual information he is unable to to act on your behalf (while totally understanding why Hanna could not speak her truth), Hannah did both herself and him no favors. However, at this point, I do think she was too far gone to truly be saved, because no one could have told her exactly what she wanted and needed to hear under the circumstances.  I would hope that Mr. Porter would first go to Hannah's parents, and then turn over the tapes (especially since Jessica is telling, Sheri told and it appears that Zach and Marcus told, and Alex went over the edge, thus removing any confidentiality obligation).  He will likely be made te scapegoat and lose his job, but I think not doing the right thing could destroy him, just as we saw it destroy Alex.

 

On 4/4/2017 at 10:22 PM, Wizhuzhu said:

This is one of the things I'd get annoyed at Clay at. I genuinely thought the show as a whole was really good and interesting, but goodness was Clay slow and draggy... I know it's not his fault, it's just the pacing but I got annoyed nonetheless. For example, he keeps on asking others what happens next, why etc. and I'd be restraining myself from yelling at the screen for him to just go through the tapes, and get the answers himself. It is funny though, how some of the other characters even told him to do just that.

I keep seeing and hearing people say this about Clay.  However, he is a kid.  He loved Hannah.  He knew he was on the tapes here she talked about people contributing to her death. How and why would listening to the tapes straight through be easy or expected of him.  Also, people seem to be overlooking Clay's own issues.  We know he was in therapy and on medication so, he clearly had emotional issues of his own that he was navigating.  He was waking up with night terrors, not showering for a time -- all because he was trying to Ms today himself =under the weight of Jeff's death, Hanah's death and the tapers. People seeming to get frustrated at the pace that Clay moved in his listening really troubles me, as it seems like the big point of the show is being lost in people putting this level of pressure on his character.

 

On 4/14/2017 at 8:36 PM, Paloma said:

Although I think this was a powerful series that everyone should see--especially those who are teens, relatives of teens, and those who work with teens in schools and other settings--this article makes a compelling argument for the series possibly doing more harm than good: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2017/04/14/the-problem-with-how-13-reasons-why-treats-suicide/?utm_term=.8434f34af1a7  But despite the concerns expressed in the article, I still think it is important to have a show deal realistically with the issues of bullying, sexual assault, and suicide among young people. 

This is somewhat nitpicky, but I was really bothered by the fact that Clay's mother was the attorney for the school and did not withdraw from the case even after finding out that her son was involved and (even worse) that he would be deposed and she would prepare him for testifying. How was this not an obvious conflict of interest?

My issue with this and other similar thinkpieces is that far too many of those criticizing 13 Reasons Why have either not seen the show, or have not seen the show in its entirety.  So when they criticizes short comings and discuss problems within the show, they are in essence a part of the very problem they are criticizing.  Watch the entire show and then tell me how and in what ways the show was problematic and could be better (I am eager to listen because I wonder if the show and its intent can in fact backfire).  Absent that, you are just pontificating in a quest for your own moment in the sun, so how are you truly helping those in crisis when you speak from a place of complete or partial ignorance.

[jeansheridan]

It might have been helpful for the show to include a suicide attempt survivor.  Or had hot-line numbers listed at the end of each ep.  Heavy handed maybe but it is a serious topic.  And the point of the book.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I agree that he looks average/normal meaning not noticeably tall/short or fat/skinny. There were a few boys at my high school who hit puberty a little later than most so they were noticeably smaller our freshman year. I can imagine it's difficult to look like you're still 12 when you're surrounded by big football and basketball players.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

11 hours ago, Happytobehere said:

As for the kids, IMO, their awfulness ranks in the following order: 1) Bryce, 2) Courtney, 3) Marcus, 4) Taylor, 5) Justin, 6) Jessica (yes her rape was awful, but I'm just focused on their treatment of Hannah pre and post death), 7) Alex (6 & 7 were a toss up for me, but ultimately, Jessica's reaction to Alex's list helped give it life, and her turning on Hannah and blaming her was just awful, so judging on a Hannah scale, Jessica is a little bit worse), 8) Ryan (he's perhaps the one I am least sure of in terms of placement, simply because I keep forgetting about him, and it wasn't until I did a kid count, that I realized I omitted him), 9) Zach, 10) Sheri.

I'm totally fine with you putting Jessica higher on the list for several reasons. As you said, her rape was a terrible thing and no one deserves to be raped, but her rape also doesn't negate the things she said and did to Hannah both before and after she was raped. She wasn't a very good friend to Hannah outside of their initial friendship with Alex at Monet's. She didn't seem to show any remorse for sneaking around behind Hannah's back to be with Alex and she then took her anger at Alex about the list out on Hannah. Alex at least seemed sorry about what had happened and took some responsibility for his part in Hannah's unhappiness. I know Jess had her own shit to deal with after the rape, but even before that happened she seemed fine with all the choices she had made.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

On the other hand, there is something to be said for Bryce never really trying to hide the fact that he's a creepy predatory asshole. I'm not saying that makes him better, but it annoys me that Courtney puts on that fake nice girl act (as does Marcus).

[MV007]

I feel like Justin's shitty home life is getting him off the hook on these rankings.  I don't believe its because he's a good looking bad boy who needs to be saved but the thought has crossed my mind.  Regardless, his inaction and silence on Jessica's rape far outweighs whatever rumors Courtney started and her stubbornness to come clean in my opinion.

I've got Bryce at 1 , Marcus at 2, Justin at 3 and then everyone else.  For me every other action or inaction could be recovered from.  But sexual assault is a step up in evil and far more damaging then dealing with an undeserved reputation.  

[Archery]

My heart was breaking throughout the conversation between Mr. Porter and Hannah.  He was asking the right questions, but he didn't seem to know how to go deeper.  And I found myself getting angry with Hannah.  She gave him just enough information to fail.  He broached the assault issue carefully.  He asked her whether she was thinking of harming herself -- which she denied.  He gave her his full attention.  He kept his tone level and neutral. And he started to give her resources to try to deal with the rape. And I absolutely get that he should have done more, much more.  But Hannah's conclusion that he should have followed her into the hallway just made me mad, because she was being the drama queen that Clay accused her of being.

Well done to the show for subverting the stereotypes.  Justin's story was a real revelation -- especially when he was talking about being hungry.  It really crystalized the whole privilege-and-power thing that Bryce had going on.  I'm recalling all the many times Bryce strong-armed people into doing stuff, like drinking (Justin wasn't immune to this in the last episode). 

My high school freshman said, "Mom, you have to watch this show," and I'm glad I listened.  I'm sure we'll be having mini-conversations about it for the foreseeable future as he processes it.  We've come a long way since the Molly Ringwald/Zach Galligan movie, "Surviving," that came out 30 years ago.  I think many of the critiques I've read have really missed the point.

The Tyler reveal reminded me powerfully of the Sandy Hook PSA that recently came out.

And in other news, I was fascinated by Tony's beautiful eyes, his awesome hair.  I thought he was going to turn out to be an undercover cop like on 21 Jump Street. 

[MV007]

I thought Mr. Porter was doing ok until he started talking about moving on.  I just can't imagine telling a young girl who is opening up for the first time about a sexual assault that she only has two options and that one of them is to just move on.  

Edited April 24, 2017 by MV007

[Archery]

1 hour ago, MV007 said:

I thought Mr. Porter was doing ok until he started talking about moving on.  I just can't imagine telling a young girl who is opening up for the first time about a sexual assault that she only has two options and that one of them is to just move on.  

Agreed, but I . . . don't know how else he could have said it? If she's not going to go down the road of pressing charges, etc., then the other option is to do what you can to deal with it and move on?  I'm at a loss as to what else he could have said/she could have done, and I guess that's why the conversation seemed so terrible.  Like, I felt like she shut him down before they could start exploring what the move on option looked like.  Maybe I'm crazy, but that missed opportunity actually upset me more than watching her actually kill herself. 

[Lady Calypso]

2 hours ago, MV007 said:

I feel like Justin's shitty home life is getting him off the hook on these rankings.  I don't believe its because he's a good looking bad boy who needs to be saved but the thought has crossed my mind.  Regardless, his inaction and silence on Jessica's rape far outweighs whatever rumors Courtney started and her stubbornness to come clean in my opinion.

For me, it's not about letting Justin off the hook. He's a shitty person who has done a whole lot of bad things and he definitely sucks. What Justin did in keeping silent, just like Hannah did initially instead of talking to Jessica about it later, is not right. I think what separates him from Courtney for ME is the aftermath and how each of them dealt with everything. Even though Justin's a righteous asshole, he was shown to be affected by the tapes, by what happened with Jessica, and with the Bryce thing, on top of dealing with the shittiest home life. He doesn't get points for coming clean after, because that was a combination of the tapes, Clay, and Jessica pushing him to be honest. 

As to why my list has Justin fourth or fifth, instead of Justin being 2nd or 3rd, I just really didn't like Courtney from the first episode, when she was being fake nice to Clay. Even before knowing the whole story there, Clay's confused face said it all, that she was on those tapes and she was pretending to be a good person. I think, throughout the season, we just saw more nastiness coming from her, until this episode, when she actively defended Bryce to everyone else who believed otherwise or who were on the fence. So I think factoring both what they did to Hannah and how it was dealt with afterwards is important too. They provided more depth to why Justin was an asshole while they didn't get much into Courtney's motivations (they only touched on it briefly), and I do think that makes all the difference. They could have not dealt with Justin's home life and he would absolutely be low on the list. Because sometimes, not everyone's born an asshole and will just be an asshole for the fun of it. Sometimes, people grow up in asshole homes and that's how they turn into assholes. 

I tend to roll my eyes at these types of shows manipulating me into feeling sorry for the villains. However, this show managed to do it with not just Justin, but several of the kids....except for Bryce. Courtney has some sympathy from me, but that's about it. Whatever does happen to Justin, it's clear that he won't be getting off easy because they are showing that he IS in the wrong and that he is an asshole. People aren't answering his calls, Jessica's pissed at him, and he has nobody to turn to. That's more tough to say about someone like Bryce, who will probably get away with his two rapes, even with Clay's taped confession. And for people like Courtney and Marcus, who don't seem to realize what they did was wrong, we don't know what will transpire if the tapes do get out. 

Also, yes, Justin stayed silent from the moment it happened. But I also think it's important to note that everyone else who listened to the tapes stayed silent too and didn't try to help Jessica. And with Courtney making excuses for Bryce, it really does put her on a similar level to Justin's silence. Not the same level, because Justin's actions were worse, but on a similar level of disgust. 

[Lady Calypso]

18 minutes ago, Archery said:

Agreed, but I . . . don't know how else he could have said it? If she's not going to go down the road of pressing charges, etc., then the other option is to do what you can to deal with it and move on?  I'm at a loss as to what else he could have said/she could have done, and I guess that's why the conversation seemed so terrible.  Like, I felt like she shut him down before they could start exploring what the move on option looked like.  Maybe I'm crazy, but that missed opportunity actually upset me more than watching her actually kill herself. 

I think the best thing for him to have done was to avoid saying "move on". I think that's something that is the wrong thing to say by someone who is a counselor. Telling them that they have no options is not something that any kid wants to hear. I agree that there was a sense of defeat no matter what he did, but he didn't seem to recognize the signs of her needing help. He showed some moments that he understood, but it went wrong very quickly from the "move on" stage. He could have told her that they could look at other options, that there could be some type of further help, he could have given her any type of hotline to call. Yet, nobody wants to hear that they should just move on. He shouldn't have said that, because I saw that it was that statement that got her to shut down and decide that the last resort wasn't working. 

[MV007]

My biggest fear is that this gets a second season and he and Jessica eventually reconcile.  

[MV007]

Right.  I feel like once he realized that she wasn't going to go to the cops then the ultimate end goal is to help her move on and get on with her life.  But that takes years of healing if you ever truly do get on with it.  In that moment, his goal should've been to find a way for her to seek further help.  I'm assuming he's not a therapist so he could encourage her to talk to one.  Or to talk to her parents.  Hell, he could've called her parents and told them he just had a very disturbing talk with her.  But presenting the situation as you can do one of two things, go to the cops or accept what happened and move on seems like a major no-no.

[DittyDotDot]

For me, it has to do with whether the person took responsibility for their actions or not. Sheri did, Alan did and, in the end, Jessica did. And, IMO, I feel like we saw change in those characters and hopefully they'll do better in the future.

Bryce, Courtney and Marcus, not so much. They all dug in their heels and continued to perpetuate the behavior that was wrong. I don't have sympathy for that, myself.

Justin and Tyler lay somewhere in the middle for me. Tyler is a creepy stalker, but I think he realized he was wrong to have invaded Hannah's privacy. However, I don't think we saw enough change in him for him to actually not do this to another girl. I don't think he learned anything from the experience other than other kids are dicks. Justin, did at least take responsibility to a certain extent, but he still was making excuses at the end. I understand what he was going through, but I felt like he was running away from his responsibility in the end instead of taking it on.

I don't have rankings for their crappy behavior, only rankings for whether I think there is hope for them as human beings or not. I have great hope for Sheri, Alan and Jessica, but feel like Bryce is a total lost cause. I think Courtney and Marcus could still become better people with a whole hellava lot more maturity, but I'm not confident they will. Not sure with Justin and Tyler though. They seem like train wrecks waiting to happen.

[galaxygirl76]

On 4/21/2017 at 8:58 PM, scribe95 said:

So I decided Clay's head injury was specifically so we could automatically know what was past vs. present tense. And it helped a lot. 

I was thinking the same thing. It reminded me of Veronica's hair being shorter in the present day story line in Veronica Mars season 1.

[MV007]

I disagree with the notion that Hannah dealt with things most kids deal with.  Her situation was extreme.  She was bullied and raped and involved with a few incidents where I'm sure the guilt ate her up (Jeff's death and Jessica's rape).  That was a lot of shit to deal with.  Obviously I don't think she should've killed herself but I can understand why someone who dealt with all that would feel hopelessness.

Edited April 25, 2017 by MV007

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Thanks for sharing your deeply personal experience @Ivydoom. I hope it will help people understand that suicide isn't about reason. It's a last resort when people feel that they have no other way out and wanting that helpless feeling to end. I'm glad that you have family and friends who understand you and support you.

[LoveTheGame]

I just finished watching this, and really wow. 

My mind is so messed up right now with everything that happened, I really don't know how to explain how really this show has hit me. 

First of I would just like to say, hats off to all the actors in this show. I understand now why they had therapy dogs and such on set through out filming. 

I have to come back later on to give my ideas on this show, cause right now my mind is still trying to process everything. 

All I can think right now is how I missed the signs about Alex. I think that is what the show wanted to show the viewers. Hell, he said he love Kurt Cobain, even the stomach pains. Wow. I really need to go and digest this.

[llewis823]

On 4/2/2017 at 1:37 PM, DittyDotDot said:

I didn't think the actual suicide was romanticized. It was horrible and violent and painful. I was beginning to think they were romanticizing Hannah Baker a bit too much until they showed just how horrible the actual act was. And, watching the parents and then the fallout from everyone around her. In the end, I think they did a good job of showing it's not a pleasant or peaceful solution. 

I don't find myself having to look away from the screen or through my fingers at things I see on tv, but I have to say, I could barely stand to watch Hannah commit the actual act of suicide. I thought to myself - before she actually cut - "How could you do that to yourself? How could you gather enough courage to do something so painful, so irreversable once done?" And the way once she had actually started cutting and realized how much it hurt, that she then realized she had to do it again on the other side. And the way she cried - like she couldn't believe she had actually done it and realizing that this was really and truly the end and no way to change her mind. I could keep rambling but it was just a glimpse into the pain these people's last moments. Just so sad and powerful.

[Jax7917]

I think Mr. Porter was asking the right questions but I agree that once he said the words "move on", I was like.. yikes. That was pretty bad to say to someone who just poured her heart out to you. He meant well when he said it but those obviously weren't a good choice of words. What he should have asked was, "what do you think you need in order to get past this and try to move forward?" in addition to telling her that he'd be there for her no matter what. I do think Hannah was setting him up to  fail right away, which is pretty realistic. She had her mind set that everyone was out to get her.

[Maum]

Ok just catching up with this show now.

Was Clay masturbating to the picture of Hannah and Courtney after listening to the tape???

That is just twisted.

 

So far curious about the whole thing but getting increasingly frustrated about this whole tape back and forth thing. It's just rather gimmicky.

[OnceSane]

1 hour ago, Maum said:

Ok just catching up with this show now.

Was Clay masturbating to the picture of Hannah and Courtney after listening to the tape???

That is just twisted.

No, LOL.  Clay had a flashback to when the picture was released and remembered wanking to it back then.

[Maum]

I just thought I saw his head bandage and then his dad was talking about the open door policy which was a present time thing?

 

The whole time shift is a problem for me. There are times where it shifts in seconds and I am so busy working out the when that the emotional impact of the show disappears.

It feels more of a murder mystery than the unravelling of a vulnerable girl which is a shame- and this whole posturing driving around in each other's cars broodily is too much. It reminds me of that old horror film with Elijah Wood and Josh Hartnett and Jon Stewart where the high school students are possessed by water aliens and walk around all zombie-like.

 

So far the only poignant part (for me) is Hannah' s devastated mother.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Maum

[mochamajesty]

On 04/17/2017 at 11:30 AM, Winston9-DT3 said:

We had this question initially, too, but I think he was in 10th grade in some of or all of the flashbacks and 17 and a junior in the current time?  Though I don't really recall how much time has passed between the two so I could be wrong.  

This was the ep when I didn't think I could take more of Hannah's personality but I pushed through and she did get less annoying.  Or at least less quippy.  

Considering the subject matter, Hannah has every right to be quippy.

[Jax7917]

I don't think it's realistic that Clay was supposed to be a nerd. IMO he was better looking than any of the jocks and has a charming personality that most girls would like.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, mochamajesty said:

Considering the subject matter, Hannah has every right to be quippy.

Quippy as in clever/witty, but like a bad sitcom.  So especially considering the subject matter, her quips are out of place to me and my household.  

[MV007]

1 hour ago, Jaclyn88 said:

I don't think it's realistic that Clay was supposed to be a nerd. IMO he was better looking than any of the jocks and has a charming personality that most girls would like.

It was difficult to judge Clay's social standing.  But I don't get the sense that he was a nerd.  He wasn't like Tyler (an outcast).  Everyone seemed to like him, he just didn't socialize much outside of school.  I also think his personality is something that gets appreciated the older you get.  I'm sure Clay will have no problems in college.

[auntiemel]

46 minutes ago, MV007 said:

It was difficult to judge Clay's social standing.  But I don't get the sense that he was a nerd.  He wasn't like Tyler (an outcast).  Everyone seemed to like him, he just didn't socialize much outside of school.  I also think his personality is something that gets appreciated the older you get.  I'm sure Clay will have no problems in college.

Yeah, he's gonna slay in college. And if he wants to further cement that, he could invest a couple of months in acoustic guitar tutorials on YouTube.

[Soobs]

Worst party ever.

[Soobs]

What a disturbing episode. More disturbing is that I remembered as I was watching this episode that I discovered this show because my friend's 12 year old daughter recommended it. 

Edited April 28, 2017 by Soobs

[imakicola]

SO of answered Alex's phone? Was it Alex's father, who finally got to Alex's phone and was going through the texts to let people know and that's why he said please call???

 

and why did zach go so  crazy to text Alex, after just a few hours of no response?

 

and also, why did the people before clay let the tapes GET to clay? If they were so ashamed of what was on the tapes, why did anyone ever pass it on to the next person?

[MV007]

They passed it on because Tony had another set and Hannah/Tony threatened to release the second set to everyone if the tapes weren't passed along.  It's one thing to be shamed in front of one person, it's another to be shamed in front of the whole school and community.

[ShellSeeker]

On 4/10/2017 at 8:00 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

No one should have to come out of the closet before they're ready, but that doesn't mean you get to LIE about someone else to direct attention away from yourself. What Courtney did to Hannah was just plain mean. I don't care how scared Courtney was. Not only did she compound the rumor about Justin at the playground (after Hannah already told her that none of it was true) saying that Hannah went down on him but then she threw in that Hannah was into girls and wanted to have a threeway with Laura. I mean, seriously, Courtney. She deliberately started rumors that she knew to be completely false in every way about someone who had only been nice to her so she can fuck right off.

Any empathy I might have had for Courtney evaporated when she piled onto Hannah like that. FFS, she was terrified about people finding out about her, and what does she do? Turns around and does the same thing to someone else, when it wasn't even true. She's an awful person for doing that. If she had just said nothing, and chosen to keep her mouth shut, that would be understandable. It's high school, and you're terrified of what people think of you. But Courtney made a choice to lie and spread rumors about someone else, worse, someone who had confided in her and made the mistake of thinking that she (Courtney) was a friend. Then she whined about how scared she was and how she didn't know what to do -- hey Courtney, here's what you do: KEEP YOUR GODDAMN MOUTH SHUT. OMG. This really struck a chord with me (just in case you couldn't tell). There were a couple times in middle school that rumors circulated about me which weren't true.

[MissL]

On 4/21/2017 at 5:53 PM, RealReality said:

The most interesting thing about this episode was the fact that no one saw Alex's attempted suicide coming.

In spite of the fact that they all just went through the same thing with Hannah, no one saw the signs.  No one saw the desperation.

I'd like a season 2 just to see Bryce get his.

Yes! This! I was getting angrier and angrier at these kids because they heard the tapes and know first hand what isolation and cruelty can do and yet they ignored actual pleas for help.  And Zach seriously?  Ignore requests from Justin AND Alex. If I'm remembering correctly Alex texted Zach multiple times begging him to contact him and he ignored him? Likely right before he shot himself. Did they learn nothing? Then I try to remind myself that not only are they teenagers....they are fictional.

[ciprus]

On 25 april 2017 at 7:09 PM, llewis823 said:

I don't find myself having to look away from the screen or through my fingers at things I see on tv, but I have to say, I could barely stand to watch Hannah commit the actual act of suicide. I thought to myself - before she actually cut - "How could you do that to yourself? How could you gather enough courage to do something so painful, so irreversable once done?" And the way once she had actually started cutting and realized how much it hurt, that she then realized she had to do it again on the other side. And the way she cried - like she couldn't believe she had actually done it and realizing that this was really and truly the end and no way to change her mind. I could keep rambling but it was just a glimpse into the pain these people's last moments. Just so sad and powerful.

I felt the same. I'm not sensitive but that was one of the most painful scenes ever. I couldn't sit still while watching.

One thing that went trough my mind when I watched this show, as good as I thought it was most of the time, I kept thinking: How would I have reacted to this as a depressed 16 year old? As an adult with all that behind me, I can handle it, but I'm not sure it would have been good for me to see when being in a similar headspace as Hannah. The actual suicide was brutal to watch, but the whole premise of the show is Hannah getting to tell her story to all the people who treated her badly, she got to punish them after death in a way. I know a lot of kids thinking that "If I died everyone would be sorry", and this show depicts that. I don't know if it's a great thing to see for kids who are in that place on the verge? I don't know how to feel about it to be honest.

[truthaboutluv]

1 hour ago, MissL said:

And Zach seriously?  Ignore requests from Justin AND Alex. If I'm remembering correctly Alex texted Zach multiple times begging him to contact him and he ignored him? Likely right before he shot himself.

I might have to watch again but I thought for sure all the texts and calls Zach ignored were from Justin. I don't know, from what we saw of him, I actually didn't see Alex as the type to call anyone before he tried to kill himself and certainly not Zach. I didn't get the impression they were that close. He might have reached out to Jessica instead. But again, I could be wrong since so much happened in the series. 

[Blue Plastic]

On 4/11/2017 at 11:08 AM, absnow54 said:

I do wonder if maybe we'd see a less favorable side of Hannah if the dual POV wasn't from Hannah and a person who was in love with Hannah. I'd actually really like to see the story from Jessica's POV to see how she felt their friendship dissolved.

Interesting.  Jessica said in one of the earlier episodes that Hannah was the one who stopped coming for hot chocolate at Monet's, not the other way around as Hannah claimed on the tapes.

On 4/11/2017 at 3:57 PM, LonelyTown said:

While I don't think a lawsuit would fly in the real world since the majority of these events happened off school property, I hope that the Bakers would file a criminal suit against Bryce after hearing all the tapes. My heart broke for them.

IANAL but I guess the Bakers' case would hinge on the idea that some of the harassment did happen on campus and the school didn't do anything about it when the signs should have been reasonably obvious.  I don't know that a teacher could be blamed for not noticing that the kids were passing around that best/worst list or sending each other pictures of Hannah on the slide, but IMO definitely Mr. Porter missed the boat.

[imakicola]

3 hours ago, MissL said:

Yes! This! I was getting angrier and angrier at these kids because they heard the tapes and know first hand what isolation and cruelty can do and yet they ignored actual pleas for help.  And Zach seriously?  Ignore requests from Justin AND Alex. If I'm remembering correctly Alex texted Zach multiple times begging him to contact him and he ignored him? Likely right before he shot himself. Did they learn nothing? Then I try to remind myself that not only are they teenagers....they are fictional.

Wait a minute. No, ZACH texted ALEX and ALEX was ignoring ZACH. if you pause you can see who sent what. And then finally "Alex" answers with "please call," and so zach immediately calls. 

Edited April 29, 2017 by imakicola

[ShellSeeker]

On 4/19/2017 at 2:47 PM, MV007 said:

I don't think the "rape culture" has anything to do with these characters not wanting to come forward.  This is about self-preservation.  They are deeply embarrassed by their actions and don't want anyone to know about it.  Also, Justin and Jessica have denied it happened throughout the series.

I can see how Justin has rationalized keeping the truth from Jessica. Don't get me wrong; I don't think he was motivated by anything other than self-preservation, but I can see how he talked himself into not telling her, thinking that she would be better off not knowing what happened to her. I can see the train of thought -- if she didn't remember, then why bring it up and upset her? That made it a whole lot easier to forget his role in what happened.

I still think he's a dick. Bryce sent that picture to the whole school, and he (Justin) was perfectly content to let everyone think they'd hooked up at the park, with zero regard for Hannah or her well-being. Bryce locked him out of Jessica's room and he didn't do anything to stop it. Plus he's still going to great lengths to keep the truth from coming out. On the list of horrible, wretched people on this show, Bryce is of course at the top of the list, followed (in my view) by Courtney, and I think Justin comes in third.

My hatred for Courtney may be so intense that I may never be able to watch that actress in anything ever again.

[MissL]

8 hours ago, imakicola said:

Wait a minute. No, ZACH texted ALEX and ALEX was ignoring ZACH. if you pause you can see who sent what. And then finally "Alex" answers with "please call," and so zach immediately calls. 

Ok.  It's possible I got all that wrong. I thought for sure he ignored him while shooting baskets in the gym. I binged the last 4 episodes and swung between sobbing, anger, and as Hannah walked towards Bryce's house my heart actually started to race when I figured out what was likely coming.  It's possible I didn't read/see any of that right. I'd watch again but I don't think I can. I do stand by none of those kids except Clay, Tony, and Sherri, and Alex. Making a real attempt to change behavior and reach out to people who may need help.  Man this show ripped my heart out. 

Edited April 30, 2017 by MissL

[ShellSeeker]

On 4/15/2017 at 9:14 PM, Clanstarling said:

It doesn't help that the middle schools sometimes foster the attitude that a bad mid-term report card will have far reaching consequences. I told my kids that it was bullshit. I expected them to do their work and make an effort, but a single mid-term report card wasn't that important.

Their high school made it seem like their choice of college was a life or death matter. As if you couldn't withdraw and start again at a different school.

Oh, hell yes to this. When my oldest daughter was a junior, we were talking about college once, and her high school (like all high schools I'm sure) was always hammering on the students not only about applying to college, but pushing prestigious, big-name colleges because they want their metrics to look good. I told her, "Listen. After you get out in the world and you're applying for jobs, no one gives 2 shits where you went to college." She was gobsmacked. And I did go on to tell her that there are certain fields where a big name college might help open some doors. Like if you want to be a lawyer, then yeah, Harvard Law School will probably get you an interview. But by and large, no one cares. Not once in all the years I've been working has anyone ever asked me anything about college in a job interview. I think it helped put things into perspective for her. 

[Megan]

I really liked this. Great music. With the first episode and Joy division I thought maybe all the songs were going to be from people who committed suicide. There were some that fit that theory like Eliot Smith..

Hannah expected way  too much of Clay and at the same time he gave her so much as a 16/17 year old. I wish every girl had a boy like him in  high school. He was also really, too perfect especially during the monloging with Mr. Porter.

I'm 20 yrs out of high school and did not have a hard time soo i don't know, but I did not think this glamourised suicide at all. It seemed horrible and painful and that Hannah really wanted to take it back immediately. 

Edited April 30, 2017 by Megan

[Blue Plastic]

On 4/16/2017 at 1:53 PM, truthaboutluv said:

The thing is though, the same way some can make the argument that ultimately Hannah's suicide was her decision and her choice, I don't think it's fair to entirely blame those actions on her. The kids decided to punish Tyler the way they did and YMMV but I'm not going to feel sorry for Tyler's being a creepy, stalkerish peeping tom being made public. I might have if he'd shown remorse and apologized for it but he didn't and instead was defensive to Clay when confronted about it.

I didn't feel too bad about Tyler's window, but I did think Hannah's tapes were cruel to Clay.  He was in agony waiting to find out what "his" tape would say, and he still felt at fault even after he listened to it.  Plus the information on the tapes caused him to take actions that actually put him in danger, in my way of looking at it.

On 4/22/2017 at 6:19 PM, DangerousMinds said:

Speaking as someone who has worked as a high school counselor, he absolutely failed. The moment she mentioned being tired of life, he should have asked her outright if she had been thinking of harming herself (and/or others) and immediately contacted her parents. She was clinically depressed and needed immediate parental and medical intervention.

Thanks for this information.  This is along the lines of what I thought should happen and why I don't have a very favorable view of Mr. Porter.  Even if he didn't know the right things to say to counsel Hannah, he should have called her parents and made sure they knew she needed to be supervised at all times and see a psychiatrist immediately.  Not just stammer around and offer to give her a list of hotline numbers.

On 4/24/2017 at 9:10 AM, Archery said:

My heart was breaking throughout the conversation between Mr. Porter and Hannah.  He was asking the right questions, but he didn't seem to know how to go deeper.  And I found myself getting angry with Hannah.  She gave him just enough information to fail.  He broached the assault issue carefully.  He asked her whether she was thinking of harming herself -- which she denied.  He gave her his full attention.  He kept his tone level and neutral. And he started to give her resources to try to deal with the rape. And I absolutely get that he should have done more, much more.  But Hannah's conclusion that he should have followed her into the hallway just made me mad, because she was being the drama queen that Clay accused her of being.

I agree she wasn't giving him much, but the "tired of life" comment and the report of a sexual assault should have had him doing so much more than he did IMO.  Even if he didn't know what to say to her, that's one thing, but he should have called her parents because she did report enough, even though it was vague, to indicate she had been raped and was extremely depressed.  Not just "oh then you'll have to move on" and "here's a list of counselors."

[Paloma]

8 hours ago, ShellSeeker said:

On the list of horrible, wretched people on this show, Bryce is of course at the top of the list, followed (in my view) by Courtney, and I think Justin comes in third.

I understand your reasons for putting Justin third, but I think Marcus is worse because he actually committed a sexual assault in public knowing that he could get away with it because of his reputation as a smart, athletic, and upstanding student. Also, he had to know that framing Clay with drugs could have resulted in Clay being expelled, arrested, and even imprisoned--in other words, ruining his life. Justin's actions regarding Hannah and Jessica were more passive than active (though I'm not letting him off the hook for those actions) and seemed to be related to his abuse of alcohol and drugs as well as his need to keep Bryce's approval. In other words, I see Marcus's actions toward both Hannah and Clay as more malicious than Justin's. 

[Guest]

On 4/23/2017 at 10:28 PM, jeansheridan said:

It might have been helpful for the show to include a suicide attempt survivor.  Or had hot-line numbers listed at the end of each ep.  Heavy handed maybe but it is a serious topic.  And the point of the book.

You're not the only one who thought that.  http://mashable.com/2017/04/19/13-reasons-why-suicide-portrayal/#knrp0MbBuSq0

On 4/23/2017 at 9:42 AM, heatherchandler said:

That's such a misconception, especially in high school.  So many people think this but it is just not true.  The most beautiful person may not be confident at all.  Like how confused people are that the "happiest person in the room" is usually the saddest.  Realizing this as an adult is eye-opening.

I'm not saying all beautiful people are confident but Hannah was portrayed as confident, in my opinion.  

On 4/23/2017 at 7:56 AM, jeansheridan said:

Since you have been a counselor,  I was wondering.  Should he have gotten a female coworker in as soon as the rape came up?  I know it would have ruined the flow of conversation but I felt uncomfortable there wasn't a woman there.

Kudos to the show though for making him so sympathetic on the surface.  Even well meaning people can blow it.  Now Steven Weber as the principal was just eeeeevil.  He does that well.  Heh.

Oops, I quoted the wrong post of yours.  I meant to reply to the one asking if my 16 year old found any TV teens realistic.  You mentioned Freaks & Geeks, which she also liked.  Also, she liked Stranger Things.  Oddly, both set in the 80s.  I think the 80s teens in Red Oaks also would pass her scrutiny, to be honest.  Maybe TV writers who were 80s teens give themselves more credit for maturity than today's teens?  I know the typical 201x teen girl on TV, to me, is something like Maddie on Nashville-- supremely annoying, shallow, spoiled and self-involved.  I hate that.  One TV teen that started out that way then turned very realistic to me recently was Abigail on Big Little Lies.  My daughter found her realistic, too.

[ShellSeeker]

@Paloma, now that I've watched a bit further, I'm inclined to agree with you. 

[truthaboutluv]

1 hour ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I'm not saying all beautiful people are confident but Hannah was portrayed as confident, in my opinion.  

Yes, she was portrayed as confident at the start, when she first moved to the town. But the point of the show, in my opinion, was showing how every subsequent thing slowly chipped at that confidence to where by the end she just felt defeated and worthless. We saw many times when Hannah tried to pick herself back up and shrug off the bad stuff that happened and then something else would happen that would knock her back down again. Which again was what I felt the point of the story was. That taken individually, some of these may not have been that big of deal but put them collectively together and it was like a series of incidents all leading to this one decision. 

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

Yes, she was portrayed as confident at the start, when she first moved to the town. But the point of the show, in my opinion, was showing how every subsequent thing slowly chipped at that confidence to where by the end she just felt defeated and worthless. We saw many times when Hannah tried to pick herself back up and shrug off the bad stuff that happened and then something else would happen that would knock her back down again. Which again was what I felt the point of the story was. That taken individually, some of these may not have been that big of deal but put them collectively together and it was like a series of incidents all leading to this one decision. 

Also, I think the series was showing us how looks can be deceiving with these things.

This discussion made me think of those Stranger Danger programs they used to have in schools.The programs unintentionally conditioned a generation of kids to be on the lookout for strange-looking people instead of teaching them that bad guys look just like everyone else too. 

I think we're conditioned to think a struggling teen looks like Alex--getting into fights--or Jessica--drinking and substance abuse--or Clay--sudden changes in moods and behavior--but sometimes someone can look like they have it all together on the outside, but be spiraling downward anyway.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, truthaboutluv said:

Yes, she was portrayed as confident at the start, when she first moved to the town. But the point of the show, in my opinion, was showing how every subsequent thing slowly chipped at that confidence to where by the end she just felt defeated and worthless.

I agree with you.  But I also think that there is a lot to a child's home life and if they're raised in a caring, supportive environment that nurtured that confidence, that's the same environment that tends to be conducive to a person feeling empowered to fight depression and bullies and all, or to find help in crisis, at home if needed.  I know they showed her parents to be a bit self-involved and neglectful and with their own troubles but they also were caring, had resources, were around, and had other characteristics of active, supportive parents.  Not that those parents never get a surprise like this, of course.  I just never felt entirely sure this actress given this family and this school and town was all that believable as being pushed to such a gruesome suicide so fast.  But I think the point too is she did have options-- lots.  Clay, parents, Tony, more.  She just chose to not want to take advantage, or to push them away and expect them to read her mind and run after her and force help on her.  

[ShellSeeker]

On 4/23/2017 at 2:07 PM, Happytobehere said:

In the thread for episode 11, I listed Courtney right behind Bryce for being the absolute worst, followed by Marcus.  All three of them are awful, and while  she clearly is not a Bryce, in many ways she shows herself to be the worst in the room at all times, and given the levels of suck of these characters, that's truly saying something. Like you, I find her to be monsterous levels of awful.

The coming out excuse holds no water for me because she gleefully lied about Hannah being gay, outed her, added additional lying slander to the mix and continued laughing and talking about Hannah to deflect fro her ish, so , no, I feel no sympathy for the Woe is me, my life might be hard if the world found out I'm gay, even though I would still have the love and support of my gay dads. So F' Courtney she ranks right below Bryce as being a worthless, self-serving, vicious PoS.

Yes. What makes me loathe Courtney is exactly what you said -- she spread nasty rumors about Hannah to deflect attention from herself, and to protect herself. I said in a previous thread that it would be one thing if she had just said nothing, but she chose to tell lies, and added to the perception about Hannah's reputation. That was bad enough, but she did it after Hannah had confided in her and told her that the rumors about her and Justin weren't true. And even worse, it was clear all through the series that any distress she was feeling was only because she was afraid of what people would think of her if they found out what she'd done, not because she felt any shred of remorse. Ugh. Horrible, horrible, nasty little bitch.

On 4/24/2017 at 10:41 AM, Lady Calypso said:

For me, it's not about letting Justin off the hook. He's a shitty person who has done a whole lot of bad things and he definitely sucks. What Justin did in keeping silent, just like Hannah did initially instead of talking to Jessica about it later, is not right. I think what separates him from Courtney for ME is the aftermath and how each of them dealt with everything. Even though Justin's a righteous asshole, he was shown to be affected by the tapes, by what happened with Jessica, and with the Bryce thing, on top of dealing with the shittiest home life. He doesn't get points for coming clean after, because that was a combination of the tapes, Clay, and Jessica pushing him to be honest. 

I think there's potential for Justin to redeem himself, because I think he's realized how the things he did, as well as the things he didn't do, contributed to everything that happened to Hannah and Jessica. The tapes were definitely the catalyst for that, and if Hannah hadn't made them, there's a good chance he would have continued living his life as a clueless d-bag. But the tapes, Clay, and Jessica basically held up a mirror to his face and made him confront his actions and his in-actions. 

When Jessica was so upset with him for defending Bryce -- and I totally understood why she thought that's what he was doing, because on the surface that's what it sounded like -- I didn't think that's what he was doing. I thought it was more that he was trying to explain why he was in denial about what Bryce did. He's got a shit home life, with a mom who either cares about her boyfriend more than she cares about him, or is so weak and spineless that she doesn't know how to stand up for him. Said boyfriend is a scumbag abusive drug dealer who at least once has assaulted him. But he's got his good buddy Bryce, who's given him a place to stay when he needs it, whose family has helped him out by buying him what he needs for school and sports, and in general kind of taken him under their wing. So no matter how bad things are at home, he's got a refuge. Then he finds out that the person providing that refuge is a sociopath and a sexual predator. I think he minimized it, and tried to downplay it, not just because he was ashamed of not stopping Bryce, or at least not trying harder, but also because by facing it would mean that he really was all alone, with nowhere to turn. It doesn't excuse his actions, by any means, but it does explain why he didn't snap out of it and let Bryce get away with what he'd done.