S07.E16: The First Day of the Rest of Your Life

[JackONeill]

3 minutes ago, oakville said:

Once again Rick makes a bad deal with the Garbage kids who have speech impairments. He nearly gets his group killed again.

I'm not arguing with you, but remember -- it was FPP who hooked Rick up with the GPK. FPP in essence, it not outright, vouched for them. Plus, at that time Rick REALLY needed some guns. Still, this was also when we got that goofy-looking smile from Rick, the smile that almost no one in the audience understood. The only thing I can figure is that those tablets Rick took in the morning really weren't aspirin! Maybe it was some of Michonne's secret stash, the stuff that is now turning her into a girl instead of a warrior. [No sexism is intended.]

[AngelaHunter]

8 hours ago, mightysparrow said:

Jadis would be a perfect partner for him.

I agree. There was way more of a spark, of chemistry, between him and Jadis than I ever saw or see between him and Michonne. The latter two were great as partners, co-conspirators, as buddies who had each other's backs (even though that part was kind of one-sided) but when I see them sucking face I just get all "Eww!" and cover my eyes like a 10-year old boy.

 

8 hours ago, JyDanzig said:

The vibe from the creative team seems to be that any negative feedback is people just failed to grasp their brilliant ideas.  But I get the ideas.  They're not great, but they could certainly work.  They don't, because they are executed terribly. 

The pacing is simply, glaringly, horrendous and getting worse all the time. Long, drawn-out, multiple sentimental flashbacks shoved right in the middle of the most action we've seen in ages? I just can't even... Who is to blame for this shit, that all the other PTB think is such a great idea?

9 hours ago, mightysparrow said:

Carl knows his old man isn't worth the trouble.

Rick just cannot handle the flow!

[Juliegirlj]

pRick had NO idea that a real live tiger would come charging in to save Carl-are we supposed to believe he would just stand there and let Negan bash in Carl's head??! No throat biting, no hatchet into Negans belly, nada. Stupid. Woulda been cool twist if Shiva bit off Negan's hand . 

Michonne vs dumb garbage blond....another fail. 

Still no sign of a baby belly on Maggie. 

pRick made no attempt to shame Eugene. 

I liked it when Negan said " awww Goddamnit honey" about walker Sasha. 

Cant believe I'm admitting this but, I am shipping Rosita and Daryl. 

Edited April 3, 2017 by Juliegirlj

[Boofish]

Given the fighting force of roughly 20 in the beginning (with the Kingdom giving them a hard NO and most of the Hilltop willing but with no weapons and skills) , I would love to hear all these "brilliant" plans people can come up with using the limited resources. They were betrayed by the Guardians of the Galaxy - no big shocker there. It don't sound like it started that way and the joke will most definitely be on them for trusting Negan. We all know it will not end well. Not only will she get screwed by Negan but she WON'T get screwed by Rick. 

7 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Considering that no one attempted to save Eugene's ass immediately after he was taken away by force, as far as I am concerned he owes Rick's little group nothing.  With all of the stalling around this season by Rick after Eugene's abduction, as far as I am concerned he is the one that abandoned Eugene.

No one attempted to save Daryl either. Not sure them not running after Eugene with no weapons and as people LOVE to point out "NO PLAN" would go well and then that would also be Rick's fault. Exactly what were they supposed to do? Stalling involved trying to put together an army and secure weapons which was apparently also a stupid plan. 

[ghoulina]

3 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

I would agree with you if I felt that Rick actually gave a shit about him.  Hell, if anyone attempted to save him early on once Eugene was abducted,  I would agree with you.

I would wager that part of taking down Negan would be getting Eugene back. When Eugene was taken, they literally had no guns and were severely outnumbered. I'm really not sure what they could done at that point that would have been successful, and wouldn't have resulted in more of CDB getting killed. 

Eugene getting taken was kind of on him, but if we're to blame anyone else it would be Rosita. He made the bullet for her, which not only defied Negan but outed his skills and intelligence. 

[Boofish]

Why can't someone else be just as strong and capable as Michonne? Why is it so hard to believe that women could beat her ass if she had the upper hand/element of surprise. Or I don't know - she is just as strong, smart, capable and strategic as Michonne. Michonne is not an invincible superhero. She lost a fight and now she's "useless" or her character is somehow diminished?

Edited April 3, 2017 by Boofish

[JackONeill]

I'm not sure what some people want Eugene to do. He's not a fighter, never has been. (Even though when really pressed, he could.) He is in Negan's control. Could he escape -- yes. Would he be caught -- most assuredly. Right now, as a somewhat free man, with access to most things Negan, he can do the most good for CDB, if so inclined. (And, yes, we don't know what he's thinking.)

Eugene's a thinker. A big picture man. He's also a bit of a con artist. I think (but could be way wrong because this is TWD after all) Eugene will pull off a big save for CDB when they really need it. I see Eugene as my old physics professor. He knew lots of things, but he never rushed into ANYTHING he had a 100% feeling about it. Now, with Eugene, I think that percentage should be whittled down because lives are at stake. So, maybe when Eugene is at the 80% mark, then he'll act. But for all we know right now, he isn't even close to being ready. Maybe he needs some other component.

I think of Eugene as the James Garner character in Support Your Local Sheriff/Gunfighter. (He even has the pompadour.)

Edited April 3, 2017 by JackONeill

[riverheightsnancy]

Ok so Sasha was supposed to pop out of the casket (still alive) and do what? Wasn't she supposed to kill one of the CDB to atone to Negan? She would have needed a weapon right? Where was it?  Also, she died in the casket, she should have had the iPod on and ear buds in when she came out right? That would have been funny actually. It's the details folks, it's the details. 

[JackONeill]

25 minutes ago, Boofish said:

Why can't someone else be just as strong and capable as Michonne? Why is it so hard to believe that women could beat her ass if she had the upper hand/element of surprise. Or I don't know - she is just as strong, smart, capable and strategic as Michonne. Michonne is not an invincible superhero. She lost a fight and now she's "useless" or her character is somehow diminished?

The thing that disappointed me is TPTB kept cutting back and forth to it. Yes, just like Rick, or Daryl, or anyone, MIchonne can lose a fight. But damn -- they DRAGGED it out. I got fatigued and frustrated when they kept leaving OTHER action for THAT action. Let's resolve one thing before hopping to another.

Edited April 3, 2017 by JackONeill

[Boofish]

2 minutes ago, riverheightsnancy said:

Ok so Sasha was supposed to pop out of the casket (still alive) and do what? Wasn't she supposed to kill one of the CDB to atone to Negan? She would have needed a weapon right? Where was it?  Also, she died in the casket, she should have had the iPod on and ear buds in when she came out right? That would have been funny actually. It's the details folks, it's the details. 

They showed the earbuds falling in one of her scenes. She was not given a weapon and the deal was one person and not three would be killed. Not that she would be the one to do it

[riverheightsnancy]

4 minutes ago, Boofish said:

They showed the earbuds falling in one of her scenes. She was not given a weapon and the deal was one person and not three would be killed. Not that she would be the one to do it

Gotcha ya. I guess I didn't pay close enough attention. I wonder why that happened? ;)

[ghoulina]

11 minutes ago, JackONeill said:

I'm not sure what some people want Eugene to do. He's not a fighter, never has been. (Even though when really pressed, he could.) He is in Negan's control. Could he escape -- yes. Would he be caught -- most assuredly. Right now, as a somewhat free man, with access to most things Negan, he can do the most good for CDB, if so inclined. (And, yes, we don't know what he's thinking.)

True, we don't know what he's thinking. All we can do, at this point, is speculate. But Eugene doesn't come off, to me, like someone who has any interest in helping CDB. Not to fight against Negan. But he'll put in a good word if you want to join up. 

I agree that he doesn't have many options. It's not like he is capable of standing up to Negan, even if he WAS so inclined. But I think he has taken it beyond just going along to get along. He is really trying to weasel himself into a position of authority over there and he's loving every minute. He was there in that clearing. He knows what Negan did to his best buddy, Abraham. Yet HE'S the one with the bullhorn rolling up to the gates of his former home. He is embracing the whole "we're all Negan" thing a little strongly for my taste. 

[LadyMustang65]

Okay, I'm just going to go ahead and say it:  I love this show!!  Not every single thing about it, but overall I just love this show.  I don't need everything to make complete sense, and I am willing to suspend disbelief maybe more than I should sometimes because I just really love this show.  And what I love most about it are the characters.  They are allowed to grow and change, and we are allowed (mostly) to go along on that journey with them.  But through it all this is a group of people who have become a family and who are still, after all that's happened to them, willing to let others into that family.  They are still willing to believe that there is good in people, but they can still be pragmatic when forced to be.  And they still believe they can build a better world.  Carol started off as an abused woman who gradually became very strong, perhaps one of the strongest in the group.  But she realized she was in danger of losing the better parts of herself, so she withdrew.  Yet when her 'family' needed her, she didn't hesitate.  Father Gabriel has come into his own over the last few years.  They could have abandoned him along the way and some might argue probably should have, but they didn't, and the group is better off for having him there.  Sasha in her death showed that she still had that group sense that they are the ones who are willing to sacrifice themselves for others, and she made her death count.  I'm sure she couldn't have known exactly how things would go down, but with the information she had, she knew there was enough time for her to die and turn, and I'm guessing she was maybe hoping ZombieSasha would be enough of a surprise to give her a chance to kill Negan.  She almost did it, too.  So many great people - some strong to begin with; others weaker and needing help but learning with the support of the group.  But they all feel like real people to me.  Sometimes they succeed; sometimes they fail; sometimes they're smart; sometimes they make really dumb decisions; they have good days and bad days.  Real people - not caricatures.

I've seen a lot of comments about how Rick is a terrible leader and how he's no different than Negan, and I could not disagree more.  I love Rick, and I would follow him anywhere.  He is at heart a good man.  He believes in the basic decency of people, and he wants to give them the benefit of the doubt.  But he is not an infallible person, so sometimes he screws up and sometimes things do not go according to plan.  I apparently am the only person who did not expect the trash people to turn on him.  That surprised me.  I thought the plan they had worked out with Dwight seemed fairly solid - as much as anything can be solid in their world.  A lot of people seemed to complain about his statement about taking over Alexandria, but even there he wasn't doing it for the sake of conquest but because of his desire to see those people - and his - be safe, and the Alexandrians weren't making good decisions to keep them safe.  If he had had to take over, they wouldn't have killed anyone; they wouldn't have made the Alexandrians slaves or captives.  Even with Oceanside, Rick sent Tara in first in the hopes she could get them to talk to him, but given what they knew of the group from Tara, they had to have a backup plan they could execute quickly to get them inside the camp.  And again they asked for the guns first and asked for the group to join them - they didn't just walk in guns blazing shooting anything that moved and taking what they wanted.  That's Rick's leadership.  I don't think he could ever become Negan.  He has done some questionable things because he's been driven to it, but it is always in the pursuit of keeping his people safe and free.  He stumbles sometimes, and he's not all-seeing and all-knowing, and I'm okay with that. 

I also am apparently the only one who didn't think it unrealistic that Michonne had a hard time fighting that woman.  As I remember her, she was at least the same size, if not a bit bigger, than Michonne, and she clearly worked out.  She had obvious muscles in her arms.  And she had the element of surprise.  She knew what was coming, but Michonne didn't, and in the seconds it took her to work it out, the other woman got the drop on her.  By all rights Michonne should have been shot right there, but she fought hard and ultimately won.  The Governor was bigger than she was, but he never struck me as being a physically strong person, and he always seemed like the type who would rather let others do the fighting.  And at that point Michonne was still coming off having been on her own for a long time and so at the top of her form, so to speak.  Anyway, while I would have liked to see Michonne dispatch the blonde more easily, I did not find it to be out of character either.  As I said, the other woman had the drop on her.

I loved when Shiva leapt through the air.  Realistic or not, I didn't care.  I cheered.  And I cheered again shortly after that when Maggie's group showed up.  I didn't see them as arriving at the same time but within a few minutes of each other.  And my sense at the end may be wrong, but I thought the battle was still going on in other parts of the compound while Negan was with Rick and Carl.  I assumed Negan was confident that with their greater numbers, his group would prevail, so he wasn't concerned about those still fighting near the gate and in other parts of the compound.  And I laughed at Negan's comments:  "they have a tiger?" and the widow's alive one.  But they also served for me to show just how different Negan and Rick are.  Negan fights and kills because he enjoys it.  He appreciated the fact that his opponents had a tiger and that Maggie was fighting him.  But he wasn't concerned; it was just all part of the game for him.  With his arrogance, it never would occur to him that he wouldn't win in the end, so that was just all making it 'better' for him - more enjoyable - more fun.  Rick fights and kills because he feels he has to to protect his family.  He doesn't enjoy it the way Negan does.  I get no sense that it gives him pleasure as it does Negan. 

My only real gripe about the episode, to be honest, is that it felt like most of the additional time was given over to commercials.  Someone had posted to Facebook that the finale was going to be aired commercial-free, so I was all psyched for it.  But then it wasn't, and it seemed like the commercial breaks went on forever.  And I am so happy it didn't end on a cliffhanger.  I'll forgive a lot for that reason alone.  :)

But at the end of the evening, I was a happy camper.  I've really enjoyed this season once I got over losing Glenn.  I still miss him.  I will miss Sasha.  But we've gotten some great new characters like Jesus and Ezekiel and Jerry and some of the others.  I'm looking forward to next season and seeing how the three groups come together and work as a unit against Negan and his group. 

[Boofish]

2 minutes ago, LadyMustang65 said:

Okay, I'm just going to go ahead and say it:  I love this show!!  Not every single thing about it, but overall I just love this show.  I don't need everything to make complete sense, and I am willing to suspend disbelief maybe more than I should sometimes because I just really love this show.  And what I love most about it are the characters.  They are allowed to grow and change, and we are allowed (mostly) to go along on that journey with them.  But through it all this is a group of people who have become a family and who are still, after all that's happened to them, willing to let others into that family.  They are still willing to believe that there is good in people, but they can still be pragmatic when forced to be.  And they still believe they can build a better world.  Carol started off as an abused woman who gradually became very strong, perhaps one of the strongest in the group.  But she realized she was in danger of losing the better parts of herself, so she withdrew.  Yet when her 'family' needed her, she didn't hesitate.  Father Gabriel has come into his own over the last few years.  They could have abandoned him along the way and some might argue probably should have, but they didn't, and the group is better off for having him there.  Sasha in her death showed that she still had that group sense that they are the ones who are willing to sacrifice themselves for others, and she made her death count.  I'm sure she couldn't have known exactly how things would go down, but with the information she had, she knew there was enough time for her to die and turn, and I'm guessing she was maybe hoping ZombieSasha would be enough of a surprise to give her a chance to kill Negan.  She almost did it, too.  So many great people - some strong to begin with; others weaker and needing help but learning with the support of the group.  But they all feel like real people to me.  Sometimes they succeed; sometimes they fail; sometimes they're smart; sometimes they make really dumb decisions; they have good days and bad days.  Real people - not caricatures.

I've seen a lot of comments about how Rick is a terrible leader and how he's no different than Negan, and I could not disagree more.  I love Rick, and I would follow him anywhere.  He is at heart a good man.  He believes in the basic decency of people, and he wants to give them the benefit of the doubt.  But he is not an infallible person, so sometimes he screws up and sometimes things do not go according to plan.  I apparently am the only person who did not expect the trash people to turn on him.  That surprised me.  I thought the plan they had worked out with Dwight seemed fairly solid - as much as anything can be solid in their world.  A lot of people seemed to complain about his statement about taking over Alexandria, but even there he wasn't doing it for the sake of conquest but because of his desire to see those people - and his - be safe, and the Alexandrians weren't making good decisions to keep them safe.  If he had had to take over, they wouldn't have killed anyone; they wouldn't have made the Alexandrians slaves or captives.  Even with Oceanside, Rick sent Tara in first in the hopes she could get them to talk to him, but given what they knew of the group from Tara, they had to have a backup plan they could execute quickly to get them inside the camp.  And again they asked for the guns first and asked for the group to join them - they didn't just walk in guns blazing shooting anything that moved and taking what they wanted.  That's Rick's leadership.  I don't think he could ever become Negan.  He has done some questionable things because he's been driven to it, but it is always in the pursuit of keeping his people safe and free.  He stumbles sometimes, and he's not all-seeing and all-knowing, and I'm okay with that. 

I also am apparently the only one who didn't think it unrealistic that Michonne had a hard time fighting that woman.  As I remember her, she was at least the same size, if not a bit bigger, than Michonne, and she clearly worked out.  She had obvious muscles in her arms.  And she had the element of surprise.  She knew what was coming, but Michonne didn't, and in the seconds it took her to work it out, the other woman got the drop on her.  By all rights Michonne should have been shot right there, but she fought hard and ultimately won.  The Governor was bigger than she was, but he never struck me as being a physically strong person, and he always seemed like the type who would rather let others do the fighting.  And at that point Michonne was still coming off having been on her own for a long time and so at the top of her form, so to speak.  Anyway, while I would have liked to see Michonne dispatch the blonde more easily, I did not find it to be out of character either.  As I said, the other woman had the drop on her.

I loved when Shiva leapt through the air.  Realistic or not, I didn't care.  I cheered.  And I cheered again shortly after that when Maggie's group showed up.  I didn't see them as arriving at the same time but within a few minutes of each other.  And my sense at the end may be wrong, but I thought the battle was still going on in other parts of the compound while Negan was with Rick and Carl.  I assumed Negan was confident that with their greater numbers, his group would prevail, so he wasn't concerned about those still fighting near the gate and in other parts of the compound.  And I laughed at Negan's comments:  "they have a tiger?" and the widow's alive one.  But they also served for me to show just how different Negan and Rick are.  Negan fights and kills because he enjoys it.  He appreciated the fact that his opponents had a tiger and that Maggie was fighting him.  But he wasn't concerned; it was just all part of the game for him.  With his arrogance, it never would occur to him that he wouldn't win in the end, so that was just all making it 'better' for him - more enjoyable - more fun.  Rick fights and kills because he feels he has to to protect his family.  He doesn't enjoy it the way Negan does.  I get no sense that it gives him pleasure as it does Negan. 

My only real gripe about the episode, to be honest, is that it felt like most of the additional time was given over to commercials.  Someone had posted to Facebook that the finale was going to be aired commercial-free, so I was all psyched for it.  But then it wasn't, and it seemed like the commercial breaks went on forever.  And I am so happy it didn't end on a cliffhanger.  I'll forgive a lot for that reason alone.  :)

But at the end of the evening, I was a happy camper.  I've really enjoyed this season once I got over losing Glenn.  I still miss him.  I will miss Sasha.  But we've gotten some great new characters like Jesus and Ezekiel and Jerry and some of the others.  I'm looking forward to next season and seeing how the three groups come together and work as a unit against Negan and his group. 

*slow stand up clap*

[TxanGoddess]

I still love show too LadyMustang, although the critiques here are interesting to read.  But especially wanted to go back to this:

Quote

The Governor was bigger than she was, but he never struck me as being a physically strong person, and he always seemed like the type who would rather let others do the fighting.

Eww, no he wasn't at all!  I remember thinking how nasty and paunchy his body looked shirtless, and being pretty disgusted with Andrea at the time.  Like, maybe if he had at least had a handsome face or a good personality it wouldn't have mattered as much, but his stomach and chest were really yucky, and I literally gagged at the idea of sex with him during those scenes, although I (unlike Andrea) could have suppressed that to take one for the team and kill his ass.

Back to the current episode; I rewatched the battle because I found it pretty confusing as a bunch of people have noted.  So this is what I think I worked out.  Once Negan had Carl and Rick walking into the clearing and kneeling, the shots that panned around showed most of the Alexandrians being disarmed and made to kneel.  So once Shiva led the way, the rest of the Kingdom people (who already knew Negan had the numbers and was likely to be winning) came in and started shooting at anyone they saw that was standing.  Then by the time the Alexandrians were starting to stand up and fight back again, and as the Hilltop people came on the scene, Saviors and GPK were making a pretty obvious retreat.  I mean, yeah this is far from foolproof, but I can see it if I try to put myself in Ezekial or Maggie's place as to who to shoot at.  The point made about how Ezekial knew the Saviors had allies still stands though ... that line was kind of clunky, unless/until we find out how he got this intelligence, because THAT is something that cannot be explained by his just looking at them.

ETA:  Oh also wanted to agree with the posters that stated that Andrew Lincoln seemed under par this episode, but JDM's close up scenes with Rick were the best acting he's done thus far.  There was a whole lot of complexity in just his eyes,  he's a good actor really, it's too bad that many of the problems viewers have with him at what his bosses are telling him to do. 

Edited April 3, 2017 by TxanGoddess

[Bryce Lynch]

21 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Sasha talked Nagen into only having one person die that day.  I think she killed herself, in the belief that her death would count as that one person that would die.

I think Nagen just brought the coffin to represent that one person would die.  Now, whether he was going to make Sasha choose who would die, I don't know.

I don't think Sasha thought her death would "count" as the one person to die.  She was being clever when she said that to Neagan, like she was, "agreeing" that one person would die, but not telling him that she would be that one person and she would turn into a walker and devour him when he opened the casket.

[Jel]

31 minutes ago, Boofish said:

Why can't someone else be just as strong and capable as Michonne? Why is it so hard to believe that women could beat her ass if she had the upper hand/element of surprise. Or I don't know - she is just as strong, smart, capable and strategic as Michonne. Michonne is not an invincible superhero. She lost a fight and now she's "useless" or her character is somehow diminished?

I think Michonne is the most nuanced, multi-dimensional character in the show, (and she's far from useless for having lost a fight). But, the one thing that is not nuanced about her is her outstanding fighting skills.  It's true she is not a super hero, but for this episode she suddenly, conveniently, loses a fight and very badly, rendering her useless in the Alexandrian's big struggle.  When has Michonne ever been a non-factor before? To me, it was cheap. 

[Mu Shu]

8 hours ago, dwarmed said:

Not to defend this show's writing, since I think the show has devolved into a mountain of stupid, but I thought those scenes were a way to explain why Sasha chose to sacrifice herself with the suicide pill. Abe talked about making their deaths mean something, to sacrifice for someone else. That was why he chose to risk himself to help Maggie. She took a shot at helping her friends instead of allowing Negan to use her as bait. I don't think it was meant to show that Abe was the only thing important to her. It was her way of gearing up/accepting what she had to do.

IMO, they did a good job with Sasha this episode.  However, she spent too many episodes being Maggie's little buddy doing nothing. They should have built her character up to this moment, and it would have been powerful.  But no, we have to waste precious time on loser and horribly acted Tara.  

[Boofish]

8 minutes ago, Jel said:

I think Michonne is the most nuanced, multi-dimensional character in the show, (and she's far from useless for having lost a fight). But, the one thing that is not nuanced about her is her outstanding fighting skills.  It's true she is not a super hero, but for this episode she suddenly, conveniently, loses a fight and very badly, rendering her useless in the Alexandrian's big struggle.  When has Michonne ever been a non-factor before? To me, it was cheap. 

I see your point but disagree. Not sure how the girl ended up dead if Michonne is a non-factor. Not sure how the loser is still breathing and the "winner" is dead.

[Jel]

1 minute ago, Boofish said:

I see your point but disagree. Not sure how the girl ended up dead if Michonne is a non-factor. Not sure how the loser is still breathing and the "winner" is dead.

I guess the dead lady would disgree with me too re: Michonne's "non-factor-ness", so point taken!  But, just overall, the fact that she wasn't having any impact on the bigger fight when she's usually right there in the heart of things, doing a lot of damage, and really contributing, did not ring true for me.  

[Mu Shu]

The loser wasn't believable.  Optics.  It would have worked had they used a more menacing looking foe.   That girl looked as puny as Beth.

[alrightythen]

A few small triumphs would've helped me tolerate this finale.  If Michonne had to get her ass kicked, couldn't they at least show how she managed to push blondie off the balcony?  Throw me a bone here.

I did not expect Negan to be killed, but all the near misses were ridiculous.  Despite walker Sasha falling on him, he somehow manages to escape and she gets the guy next to him.  Shiva misses him and gets the guy next to him. Everyone shot at his truck, and everyone missed. Come on.  This kind of writing does not build suspense.  It only builds frustration. 

I was at first confused and then bored with the Abraham and Sasha scenes, and the Maggie monologue at the end.  I didn't need 1/2 hour of all that to explain their motivations.  That time could've been spent on the fighting scenes, making them more coherent and believable.  Guess it's easier to write sappy dialogue than action.

Gimple said on Talking Dead to expect more of the same for next season.  Ugh.

[Dodginblue]

I think Michonne getting her ass kicked would have been more plausible if she'd been knocked out quickly.  It can happen like that,  Michonne get taken by surprise and the blonde girl just socks her with the butt of the rifle in the noggin.   But no, instead we're subjected to this cutting back and forth between other things going on and then Michonne and the other girl up there battling it out.   As others have mentioned, the pacing on this show really makes no sense sometimes.  I think it might have been meant to create suspense, will Michonne be able to rescue Rick?  will she be the one to save the day?  can she beat this Swedish milk maid in time to help anyone, including herself?  Unfortunately it was so poorly done I couldn't help laugh, poorly written, acted and directed.

[Dobian]

You can sum up this season by saying that it took sixteen hour+ episodes to finally have a battle with the Saviors in the final thirty minutes of episode sixteen.  TWD plods along like a herd of elephants.  This season was padded with filler, whole episodes devoted to secondary characters most people weren't interested in (at least in prior seasons the filler episodes featured *primary* characters), secondary characters getting more screen time than the main protagonists, important story arcs set aside (like Maggie's personal journey post-Glenn) so they could pile on new ones.  In the first eight episodes CDB could have connected with Hilltop and the Kingdom to take down Negan, and last night's show could have been the mid-season finale.  Both Oceanside and the dumpster divers were unnecessary distractions that added nothing to the show.  On top of that, the dumpster divers are total cartoons and make no sense whatsoever.  They might be entertaining to a 14 year old reading a TWD magazine, here they are just ridiculous.  Not only is the narrative flow atrocious, but the writers didn't even know how to write a coherent response by Rick and CDB to the Negan threat.  Look at how last night played out.  It was Negan showing up at Alexandria in force, and then successfully subduing Rick - again - only for CDB to be bailed out by the other two groups who took it upon themselves to see if Alexandria needed some help.  The coordinated assault or ambush of the Saviors' compound, taking Negan completely by surprise and providing fans with the satisfaction of seeing CDB plan something for several episodes and then successfully execute it, taking the fight to them and not the other way around, never happened.  Instead, Rick's failure as a leader is emphasized again in his "deals" with Dwight, dumpster divers, his handling of Oceanside.  Trusting an alliance with people who not only can't speak properly but who are not threatened by Negan, so their motivation is one of mercenary self-interest, not survival.  Allowing anyone other than his own crew anywhere near those explosives.

But what annoyed me the most last night was Rick giving Negan (who must have been mentally eye-rolling like me) almost the *exact* same speech he gave him the first time they met.  "I'm going to kill you...maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, maybe not next week..." or next month, or next year, or anytime in the 2020s...but I'm going to kill you!  You go get 'im, Rick.

[Bryce Lynch]

21 minutes ago, alrightythen said:

A few small triumphs would've helped me tolerate this finale.  If Michonne had to get her ass kicked, couldn't they at least show how she managed to push blondie off the balcony?  Throw me a bone here.

I did not expect Negan to be killed, but all the near misses were ridiculous.  Despite walker Sasha falling on him, he somehow manages to escape and she gets the guy next to him.  Shiva misses him and gets the guy next to him. Everyone shot at his truck, and everyone missed. Come on.  This kind of writing does not build suspense.  It only builds frustration. 

I was at first confused and then bored with the Abraham and Sasha scenes, and the Maggie monologue at the end.  I didn't need 1/2 hour of all that to explain their motivations.  That time could've been spent on the fighting scenes, making them more coherent and believable.  Guess it's easier to write sappy dialogue than action.

Gimple said on Talking Dead to expect more of the same for next season.  Ugh.

Agree about the small triumphs.  I also don't believe for a second that Garbage Dump Blondie could have beaten Michonne's butt.  Michonne would have killed her in seconds.  

I agree the Neagan near misses were frustrating, but they weren't all that unrealistic to me.  A single walker can rarely manage to kill an experienced zombie killer, like Neagan, it is probably hard to aim a tiger and they seemed to be shooting at a good distance, at a fast moving target, when Neagan was fleeing in the truck.  I would to have loved for one of them to have shot off his middle finger, though. 

I didn't care for the flashback scenes either. 

I didn't take what Gimple said seriously.  I think he was being sort of facetious, saying something like, "Last year I promised this season would be bigger and better and more intense, and I am making the same promise tonight.".  I think he either didn't know exactly what would happen this season, or was afraid of giving too much away so he transparently spoke in platitudes to avoid the question.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Bryce Lynch

[JackONeill]

1 minute ago, Dobian said:

But what annoyed me the most last night was Rick giving Negan (who must have been mentally eye-rolling like me) almost the *exact* same speech he gave him the first time they met.  "I'm going to kill you...maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, maybe not next week..." or next month, or next year, or anytime in the 2020s...but I'm going to kill you!  You go get 'im, Rick.

I was seriously thinking at the time, especially since JDM seemed to be focusing so closely on what Rick was saying, to say something: "Dude, no disrespect, but I think your reading of those lines was so much better the first time. Must be the daylight."

[nodorothyparker]

I'm trying to figure out how after more than 12 hours after watching the super sized season finale I can't muster up much more of a reaction than "well, that happened."  

I agree with whoever said upthread that it feels like the show has taken a real dive in production values across the board in the last season.  I don't know if the network is using all the money it's made even with declining ratings to prop up its less profitable ventures on the theory that a sizable audience will still tune in even if the effects are laughably bad as they long as they get to see explosions and gunfire and some gore every so often or what but that's what it feels like now.  Even the action sequences, which the show used to do well, now feel poorly plotted and incoherent.  I had no idea where anyone was or what was happening most of that battle, and why was so much of it set to cheesy '80s synthetic pop?  I still don't know what the point of dragging a coffin along was unless it was a comic specific thing.  Rick has passed the point of amusingly inept leader to WTF is anyone still letting this man decide anything likely to get us killed.  With the exception of the Kingdom crew, which I don't know if I like them because they're genuinely likable or just because they don't feel so tiredly dour, nothing and no one that's been introduced in the last couple of seasons has worked for me.  Watching Sasha introduced in season 3 play happy flashback with already dead Abraham introduced in season 4 on her way out the door was a glaring reminder that since then it's mostly been a parade of one-note red shirts and each one worse than their predecessor villains.

I assume the show will continue to roll on in much this same vein since TPTB seem to still be under the impression that they're doing a bang-up job and the audience will continue to follow.  They can't be entirely wrong because the cashiers where I stopped for milk this morning all think Negan is the funniest bestest villain ever.

[RedDelicious]

5 hours ago, rmontro said:

By the way, how funny is it that a gang that lives in a junkyard travels around in garbage trucks?  I was nearly on the floor over that.

I burst into a massive fit of giggles when the garbage trucks rolled into Alexandria.  I was DYING.  The episode was over for me after that.  I just could not take it seriously.

2 hours ago, Juliegirlj said:

Cant believe I'm admitting this but, I am shipping Rosita and Daryl. 

Me too, totally!! 

Edited April 3, 2017 by RedDelicious

[notagain]

1 hour ago, Boofish said:

Given the fighting force of roughly 20 in the beginning (with the Kingdom giving them a hard NO and most of the Hilltop willing but with no weapons and skills) , I would love to hear all these "brilliant" plans people can come up with using the limited resources. They were betrayed by the Guardians of the Galaxy - no big shocker there. It don't sound like it started that way and the joke will most definitely be on them for trusting Negan. We all know it will not end well. Not only will she get screwed by Negan but she WON'T get screwed by Rick. 

No one attempted to save Daryl either. Not sure them not running after Eugene with no weapons and as people LOVE to point out "NO PLAN" would go well and then that would also be Rick's fault. Exactly what were they supposed to do? Stalling involved trying to put together an army and secure weapons which was apparently also a stupid plan. 

Exactly. Rick can never win, he's the worst leader, even though there's evidence that Deana is the worst leader in the ZA. He's the worst because he continues to set his people up to die, but what kind of life can he offer them under Negan's rule? As Michonne's mantra "we're the ones who live" suggest they are not living under Negan, they are allowing themselves to be subjugated only to survive. That's  not the version of living she wants for herself, Rick, Carl, Judith and their people... So yeah they will fight... Rick as leader is the reflection of his people, they want to fight with or without him. 

[Dobian]

One other thing I forgot to include which underscores again Rick's utter failure was the fact that right after his "I'm gonna kill you sometime in this lifetime, Negan!", he just sat there passively while Negan stepped into the batter's box and started his swing to crush Carl's head like a melon.  Rick couldn't even launch himself at Negan when he was an inch from his face, it was Shiva who saved Carl's life.  Shiva should adopt Carl next season and have him start calling her "Mom".

[Persnickety1]

12 hours ago, Rachel RSL said:

I kinda did too. Mainly because I was just glad that somebody did something. Negan was about to bash Carl's head in, that bat was on the way down, and Rick was just sitting there. What the actual fuck? You'd think that Rick would have just lunged at him, made any move he could, blink...something. But, nope, he just sits there all "Oh good, maybe I'll get my hat back now."

 

This is probably my all-time favorite post over this entire dismal season.   I'll be giggling about this for days and think of it every time I see that scene.  

What a disappointing season.  It really tried my patience most of the time, but, fool that I am, I kept hanging in there, assuming that there would be a huge payoff in the finale.

Well, there's always next season.  

Usually the day after the season finale, I'm stalking the internet trying to find the season for sale...

Even though I'll probably end up buying season 7 for completion's sake, I'm not in a hurry to buy it so I can rewatch it.  

Hopefully season 8 is better.  It sure wouldn't take much effort to top this albatross of a season.

[LadyMustang65]

43 minutes ago, Boofish said:

I see your point but disagree. Not sure how the girl ended up dead if Michonne is a non-factor. Not sure how the loser is still breathing and the "winner" is dead.

Thank you!!! I was just going to make the same comment - how did Michonne lose when she killed the other girl?  How is that even possible for you to lose the fight when you're the last one standing?  So to speak.  It was a tough, hard-fought battle, but Michonne prevailed.  She won that fight.  And when you see how banged up she was, it just proves once again she is a certified bad-ass.  As long as there is breath in her lungs, there is fight in her body. 

14 minutes ago, RedDelicious said:

I burst into a massive fit of giggles when the garbage trucks rolled into Alexandria.  I was DYING.  The episode was over for me after that.  I just could not take it seriously.

My husband laughed and said - they live in a dump; garbage trucks make sense.  And they really did.  I thought it was perfect.  < lol >

[ShadowSixx]

2 hours ago, Juliegirlj said:

 

Cant believe I'm admitting this but, I am shipping Rosita and Daryl. 

 

I'm shipping for them to die together. They both are so damn annoying. Daryl just grunts and groans like it's a new language or something. He either belongs with the walkers who do nothing but grunt or send his dirty ass off with the GPK, he'll fit perfectly there with the way he speaks. 

Rosita is as useless as a flashlight in the dark with no batteries. Seen how early she got taken out of the fight. Let's see, can't shoot a man 3ft away, comes up with a useless plan with Sasha at Negan's camp, caused Olivia's death and Eugene's kidnapping, and taken out early during the shootout. I would seriously be asking, "What good are you?" Good at being a cold bitch and spreading her legs, she'll fit perfectly in a horror film.

If I was to ship any couple it would be Aaron and Jesus. Aaron needs to get rid of that useless bf of his.

[RainOnToosdays]

22 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

I agree that he doesn't have many options. It's not like he is capable of standing up to Negan, even if he WAS so inclined. But I think he has taken it beyond just going along to get along. He is really trying to weasel himself into a position of authority over there and he's loving every minute. He was there in that clearing. He knows what Negan did to his best buddy, Abraham. Yet HE'S the one with the bullhorn rolling up to the gates of his former home. He is embracing the whole "we're all Negan" thing a little strongly for my taste. 

36 minutes ago, JackONeill said:

I'm not sure what some people want Eugene to do. He's not a fighter, never has been. (Even though when really pressed, he could.) He is in Negan's control. Could he escape -- yes. Would he be caught -- most assuredly. Right now, as a somewhat free man, with access to most things Negan, he can do the most good for CDB, if so inclined. (And, yes, we don't know what he's thinking.)

Eugene's a thinker. A big picture man. He's also a bit of a con artist. I think (but could be way wrong because this is TWD after all) Eugene will pull off a big save for CDB when they really need it. I see Eugene as my old physics professor. He knew lots of things, but he never rushed into ANYTHING he had a 100% feeling about it. Now, with Eugene, I think that percentage should be whittled down because lives are at stake. So, maybe when Eugene is at the 80% mark, then he'll act. But for all we know right now, he isn't even close to being ready. Maybe he needs some other component.

I liken Eugene to Andrea. They both, through no real fault of their own, fell in with the enemy camp. Andrea established a personal relationship with the leader which upped her status, she felt safe, she was enjoying the creature comforts, and even after clear indication that the Gov was bad news, even after finding out her original group was alive and at the prison, she chose to stay with the Gov at Woodbury. With the realization that many people might die, her course of action was not to kill the Gov when she had the chance but to talk in hopes of getting both factions to agree to a diplomatic resolution.  Andrea's moral mirror was Michonne.  Michonne knew things were wrong and she chose to have no part of it, and she risked her own life in leaving and in trying to kill the Gov.  It ended badly for Andrea,  with the man she parked her allegiance with killing her for being a traitor.  But you know what? When the end came for her Rick's group was there for her and they forgave her.

Eugene's story so far is exactly the same (the only exception being he knew 100% from the very get-go how evil Negan is) and in his story Sasha is his Michonne - an old friend caught up in the same situation but who makes all the opposite choices he did.  Eugene has established a relationship with Negan, his status has gone up, he feels safe, he is enjoying all the creature comforts. He knows whats-what but even after being given the opportunity to get away (when Sasha and Rosita arrive)  he chooses to stay. He can't bring himself to kill Negan even though he has the opportunity with that second pill, so he tries "diplomacy". That's how I saw it with him going ahead of the convoy with the bullhorn - he wasn't waving Negans's banner, he was hoping that as an old friend his old group would listen to him and back down and thus save lives including theirs. And as in Andrea's case, it didn't help. Now Negan is suspicious of him and given all of the above parallels, it is quite likely he will die at Negan's hands. I really liked Eugene so I can only hope that when it comes around for him, the old gang is there for him with forgiveness in their hearts as they were for Andrea. 

[ShadowSixx]

Just now, RainOnToosdays said:

I liken Eugene to Andrea. They both, through no real fault of their own, fell in with the enemy camp. Andrea established a personal relationship with the leader which upped her status, she felt safe, she was enjoying the creature comforts, and even after clear indication that the Gov was bad news, even after finding out her original group was alive and at the prison, she chose to stay with the Gov at Woodbury. With the realization that many people might die, her course of action was not to kill the Gov when she had the chance but to talk in hopes of getting both factions to agree to a diplomatic resolution.  Andrea's moral mirror was Michonne.  Michonne knew things were wrong and she chose to have no part of it, and she risked her own life in leaving and in trying to kill the Gov.  It ended badly for Andrea,  with the man she parked her allegiance with killing her for being a traitor.  But you know what? When the end came for her Rick's group was there for her and they forgave her.

Eugene's story so far is exactly the same (the only exception being he knew 100% from the very get-go how evil Negan is) and in his story Sasha is his Michonne - an old friend caught up in the same situation but who makes all the opposite choices he did.  Eugene has established a relationship with Negan, his status has gone up, he feels safe, he is enjoying all the creature comforts. He knows whats-what but even after being given the opportunity to get away (when Sasha and Rosita arrive)  he chooses to stay. He can't bring himself to kill Negan even though he has the opportunity with that second pill, so he tries "diplomacy". That's how I saw it with him going ahead of the convoy with the bullhorn - he wasn't waving Negans's banner, he was hoping that as an old friend his old group would listen to him and back down and thus save lives including theirs. And as in Andrea's case, it didn't help. Now Negan is suspicious of him and given all of the above parallels, it is quite likely he will die at Negan's hands. I really liked Eugene so I can only hope that when it comes around for him, the old gang is there for him with forgiveness in their hearts as they were for Andrea. 

IDK it seemed Andrea always wanted to get with a leader of a group. Once she found out Lori slept with Shane, she gives Lori looks and talked down to her. She then sexes up Shane because he made her feel safe with teaching her how to shoot and then the Governor because he made her feel safe. She probably would have made the move on Rick if she was still alive. Andrea's pride just got in the way and that's what caused her death IMO.

[dannymoon]

8 hours ago, Haleth said:

Remember when Rick met up with everyone in the boxcar and growed, "They're screwing with the wrong people."?  THAT was how to write suspense.  THAT was how to end the season on an inspirational, hopeful note.  THAT was how you leave fans wanting more.  THAT was when we cared.

I was all about TWD at that time. Great finale and a great season IMO even though everyone was split up for a bit. Gimple was kicking butt back then. And now...I just don't know about you, show.  I'll likely still watch next season, but it's not exciting appointment TV for me like it used to be. I still kinda love it, and most of the characters, though I can't logically believe that problems with writing and pacing will magically improve (for a season 8, no less). But I'm invested enough to see it through.

6 hours ago, Shopkeeper said:

I am crap at figuring things out in advance but I had Sasha's plan figured out in about two seconds. What I didn't get was what Negan was thinking in the first place. (I might be able to figure this out if I rewatched...but that's not going to happen.) What was the big plan with the coffin? Negan TOLD everyone that Sasha was in it. Was he expecting them to be so surprised and relieved that she was alive - even though she was in a coffin!!! -- that they'd drop their guns and surrender? That doesn't compute. 

I'm not sure either, just that he was going to trade Sasha (I think?) for someone's dead body, along with taking their guns, etc. And Negan damn well knows that she didn't suffocate, he just doesn't know what happened, but definitely suspects Eugene does. Either way, Sasha was damn smart. She used the pill at the right moment, and thought her people would have a chance if the element of surprise was turned on Negan, something he's not used to dealing with.

I actually enjoyed her flashback scenes with Abe. I'm not recalling many sweet moments with them, and those two being put "together" seemed sudden and forced on the show for me, so I appreciated these relationship scenes on some level. 

Didn't GPK arrive a bit before Negan? When would they have dismantled Rosita's bomb? And I too can't believe fighters from the other areas knew who were saviors and trash people, and who weren't. Everyone's apocalyptic dress is dark and too similar at this point. I cheered when they showed up though, because I was nervous for Carl. Although logically I don't need to be, because I still say he's untouchable.

Edited April 3, 2017 by dannymoon

[smorbie]

  1 hour ago, LadyMustang65 said:

Okay, I'm just going to go ahead and say it:  I love this show!!  Not every single thing about it, but overall I just love this show.  I don't need everything to make complete sense, and I am willing to suspend disbelief maybe more than I should sometimes because I just really love this show.  And what I love most about it are the characters.  They are allowed to grow and change, and we are allowed (mostly) to go along on that journey with them.  But through it all this is a group of people who have become a family and who are still, after all that's happened to them, willing to let others into that family.  They are still willing to believe that there is good in people, but they can still be pragmatic when forced to be.  And they still believe they can build a better world.  Carol started off as an abused woman who gradually became very strong, perhaps one of the strongest in the group.  But she realized she was in danger of losing the better parts of herself, so she withdrew.  Yet when her 'family' needed her, she didn't hesitate.  Father Gabriel has come into his own over the last few years.  They could have abandoned him along the way and some might argue probably should have, but they didn't, and the group is better off for having him there.  Sasha in her death showed that she still had that group sense that they are the ones who are willing to sacrifice themselves for others, and she made her death count.  I'm sure she couldn't have known exactly how things would go down, but with the information she had, she knew there was enough time for her to die and turn, and I'm guessing she was maybe hoping ZombieSasha would be enough of a surprise to give her a chance to kill Negan.  She almost did it, too.  So many great people - some strong to begin with; others weaker and needing help but learning with the support of the group.  But they all feel like real people to me.  Sometimes they succeed; sometimes they fail; sometimes they're smart; sometimes they make really dumb decisions; they have good days and bad days.  Real people - not caricatures.

I've seen a lot of comments about how Rick is a terrible leader and how he's no different than Negan, and I could not disagree more.  I love Rick, and I would follow him anywhere.  He is at heart a good man.  He believes in the basic decency of people, and he wants to give them the benefit of the doubt.  But he is not an infallible person, so sometimes he screws up and sometimes things do not go according to plan.  I apparently am the only person who did not expect the trash people to turn on him.  That surprised me.  I thought the plan they had worked out with Dwight seemed fairly solid - as much as anything can be solid in their world.  A lot of people seemed to complain about his statement about taking over Alexandria, but even there he wasn't doing it for the sake of conquest but because of his desire to see those people - and his - be safe, and the Alexandrians weren't making good decisions to keep them safe.  If he had had to take over, they wouldn't have killed anyone; they wouldn't have made the Alexandrians slaves or captives.  Even with Oceanside, Rick sent Tara in first in the hopes she could get them to talk to him, but given what they knew of the group from Tara, they had to have a backup plan they could execute quickly to get them inside the camp.  And again they asked for the guns first and asked for the group to join them - they didn't just walk in guns blazing shooting anything that moved and taking what they wanted.  That's Rick's leadership.  I don't think he could ever become Negan.  He has done some questionable things because he's been driven to it, but it is always in the pursuit of keeping his people safe and free.  He stumbles sometimes, and he's not all-seeing and all-knowing, and I'm okay with that. 

I also am apparently the only one who didn't think it unrealistic that Michonne had a hard time fighting that woman.  As I remember her, she was at least the same size, if not a bit bigger, than Michonne, and she clearly worked out.  She had obvious muscles in her arms.  And she had the element of surprise.  She knew what was coming, but Michonne didn't, and in the seconds it took her to work it out, the other woman got the drop on her.  By all rights Michonne should have been shot right there, but she fought hard and ultimately won.  The Governor was bigger than she was, but he never struck me as being a physically strong person, and he always seemed like the type who would rather let others do the fighting.  And at that point Michonne was still coming off having been on her own for a long time and so at the top of her form, so to speak.  Anyway, while I would have liked to see Michonne dispatch the blonde more easily, I did not find it to be out of character either.  As I said, the other woman had the drop on her.

I loved when Shiva leapt through the air.  Realistic or not, I didn't care.  I cheered.  And I cheered again shortly after that when Maggie's group showed up.  I didn't see them as arriving at the same time but within a few minutes of each other.  And my sense at the end may be wrong, but I thought the battle was still going on in other parts of the compound while Negan was with Rick and Carl.  I assumed Negan was confident that with their greater numbers, his group would prevail, so he wasn't concerned about those still fighting near the gate and in other parts of the compound.  And I laughed at Negan's comments:  "they have a tiger?" and the widow's alive one.  But they also served for me to show just how different Negan and Rick are.  Negan fights and kills because he enjoys it.  He appreciated the fact that his opponents had a tiger and that Maggie was fighting him.  But he wasn't concerned; it was just all part of the game for him.  With his arrogance, it never would occur to him that he wouldn't win in the end, so that was just all making it 'better' for him - more enjoyable - more fun.  Rick fights and kills because he feels he has to to protect his family.  He doesn't enjoy it the way Negan does.  I get no sense that it gives him pleasure as it does Negan. 

My only real gripe about the episode, to be honest, is that it felt like most of the additional time was given over to commercials.  Someone had posted to Facebook that the finale was going to be aired commercial-free, so I was all psyched for it.  But then it wasn't, and it seemed like the commercial breaks went on forever.  And I am so happy it didn't end on a cliffhanger.  I'll forgive a lot for that reason alone.  :)

But at the end of the evening, I was a happy camper.  I've really enjoyed this season once I got over losing Glenn.  I still miss him.  I will miss Sasha.  But we've gotten some great new characters like Jesus and Ezekiel and Jerry and some of the others.  I'm looking forward to next season and seeing how the three groups come together and work as a unit against Negan and his group. 

*slow stand up clap*

YES! Every word of that. Bravo.

This is the Rodney Dangerfield of shows. It gets no respect, and yet.. people are still here every week complaining about it. It's the fashionable thing to do.

I'm particularly enjoying all the comments about how "obvious" it was that the heapsters were going to double cross Rick. if it were that obvious, the people would have been talking about it before. But, no one mentioned it.

And a correction to the author of the article. Negan (who just CAN'T shut up, can he?) told Rick he was going to kill Carl and take Rick's hands. Rick's comment about how he could take his hands was to say Negan could do that and even without the use of his hands Rick would kill him.

I actually saw Negan do some real acting last night, rather than his trick of leaning back and barfing out a soliloquy. Seriously, is this guy paid by the word? The scene where he was looking at Rick as Rick was spitting out his hatred and threats, was actually quite good. You could see in his eyes there was a little fear in spite of the situation at hand. He covered it well, but it was there below the surface. What do you know? He can act!

I was so upset that Ezekiel was taking Shiva. It never occurred to me he was going to let her loose and use her as a weapon. I just couldn't understand why he was taking his beloved tiger with him. And I worried about her the whole time. I kept expecting someone to shoot her and to see her carcas. Yes, I know she is CGI, but I' an animal person and I love her.

The Abraham scenes went on waaaaay too long. I understand he was trying to make the point that they sacrifice for each other, and his whole life was about that. He was in the military, and after the end of the world, he stayed alive to help Eugene and then the rest of the Scooby gang. But, make your point and stop. Don't beleaguer it until it's tedious. The same with Sasha in the coffin. I always liked her, but this year was not her best. And the fact that we knew she was leaving the show took some of the tension out of it because we knew she was going to kill herself. But, I'll be honest, I didn't think about the fact that she would turn. And her growling her way out of the coffin really did surprise me.

I'm a little worried about Eugene. I've always liked him. And I didn't blame him for going to Negan's side. He had no way of knowing how things would play out. As far as he knew, he was there for life and he might as well enjoy it since they were embracing him. Now...I'm pretty sure Negan's on to him. And I doubt Rick will be eager to take him back. So...a little worried about the mullet man.

[LadyMustang65]

10 minutes ago, Dobian said:

One other thing I forgot to include which underscores again Rick's utter failure was the fact that right after his "I'm gonna kill you sometime in this lifetime, Negan!", he just sat there passively while Negan stepped into the batter's box and started his swing to crush Carl's head like a melon.  Rick couldn't even launch himself at Negan when he was an inch from his face, it was Shiva who saved Carl's life.  Shiva should adopt Carl next season and have him start calling her "Mom".

There were a dozen guns pointed at Rick's head.  Yeah, he could have launched himself, and he'd have been dead before he had moved a foot.  And Carl would still be dead.  And Judith would have no family.  Sometimes there is no good decision, but Carl is not the only child he has to worry about.

[smorbie]

Given the fighting force of roughly 20 in the beginning (with the Kingdom giving them a hard NO and most of the Hilltop willing but with no weapons and skills) , I would love to hear all these "brilliant" plans people can come up with using the limited resources. They were betrayed by the Guardians of the Galaxy - no big shocker there. It don't sound like it started that way and the joke will most definitely be on them for trusting Negan. We all know it will not end well. Not only will she get screwed by Negan but she WON'T get screwed by Rick. 

  2 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Considering that no one attempted to save Eugene's ass immediately after he was taken away by force, as far as I am concerned he owes Rick's little group nothing.  With all of the stalling around this season by Rick after Eugene's abduction, as far as I am concerned he is the one that abandoned Eugene.

No one attempted to save Daryl either. Not sure them not running after Eugene with no weapons and as people LOVE to point out "NO PLAN" would go well and then that would also be Rick's fault. Exactly what were they supposed to do? Stalling involved trying to put together an army and secure weapons which was apparently also a stupid plan. 

In the beginning they didn't know where Eugene was because they didn't know where the sanctuary is. And Rick's plan of fighting back surely included rescuing Eugene even though he didn't specifically say that. He had to try to do it the smart way by putting together a team and gathering the resources instead of charging in with nothing but his questionable charm and a one-eyed kid in a sheriff's hat. So, he was constantly working to end the savior's reign and save Eugene.

[smorbie]

pRick had NO idea that a real live tiger would come charging in to save Carl-are we supposed to believe he would just stand there and let Negan bash in Carl's head??! No throat biting, no hatchet into Negans belly, nada. Stupid. Woulda been cool twist if Shiva bit off Negan's hand . 

Michonne vs dumb garbage blond....another fail. 

Still no sign of a baby belly on Maggie. 

pRick made no attempt to shame Eugene. 

I liked it when Negan said " awww Goddamnit honey" about walker Sasha. 

Cant believe I'm admitting this but, I am shipping Rosita and Daryl. 

No, there was a scene shot from the side where you could see there's a baby on board.

Why should he shame Eugene? He was going to blow him up. Why hurt someone's feelings when you can hurt their body?

[smorbie]

  14 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

Sasha should have gotten to eat Negan's face off.

I was thinking I'd be perfectly happy for this story line to end with Neagan being bitten by Sasha and dying from it.  Wish they did not feel they had to string it out further.  

Agreed. I'm sick to death of Negan. The other site I was on before it was murdered by TV Guide had people discussing it with orgasmic glee a full two years before he ever leaned his way onto the show. So, I was sick of him before he ever showed up.

I may have to break the glass on the tv and kill him myself.

[TigerLynx]

Quote

I may have to break the glass on the tv and kill him myself.

I'll help you.

I can believe Michonne going up against someone, and not immediately kicking ass and winning.  What I don't buy is Michonne not hardly fighting back at all, and when she finally gets the upper hand and tosses junkyard idiot over the balcony, we don't get to see it.

I don't believe the flash of fear Negan had when he was talking to Rick because the odds have been stacked so far in Negan's favor.  Even when some of CDBs best fighters/shooters have the upper hand for just a moment, it's always someone besides Negan who ends up dead.

I loved Shiva saving Carl.  What's not to love about a Tiger?  However, NO ONE saying anything about the man eating (literally) Tiger coming into save the day was an epic fail.  Also, the Kingdom had better make sure to keep a good steady supply of meat on hand because now Shiva knows what live people taste like.

Edited April 3, 2017 by TigerLynx

[bosawks]

This show reminds me of that old chestnut, "There was a little girl, who had a little curl...."

When it is good, it is very good and when it is bad, it is horrid.

So, I'm going to channel my Longfellow and just enjoy it for what it is to me.

[Dobian]

2 minutes ago, LadyMustang65 said:

There were a dozen guns pointed at Rick's head.  Yeah, he could have launched himself, and he'd have been dead before he had moved a foot.  And Carl would still be dead.  And Judith would have no family.  Sometimes there is no good decision, but Carl is not the only child he has to worry about.

Rick with a bunch of alliances and fully armed was subdued by Negan - again - with ease.  Now he is on his knees and reprising his "I'm going to kill you" speech, after which he sits there while Carl is bludgeoned to death, then watches Negan leave town with all of CDB's weapons - again.  How he could possibly entertain being able to overthrow Negan while totally disarmed when he couldn't even manage it when he was armed and ready is a ridiculous thought.  Rick was completely neutered by Negan - again - in that scene.  His threat to Negan was empty and impotent.  And that is the failure of that scene.  That the writers allowed Negan to one-up Rick again and put him in yet another "watch while I kill a loved one" scenario.  Rick in that moment thinking he just lost Michonne and now allowing Negan to just take Carl brutally.  Total fail.  Rick could have latched onto Negan's throat with his mouth and ripped a chunk out of it, pulled Negan on top of him.  The shooters wouldn't have been able to react in time, it only takes a second.  I don't know if you've ever shot a gun, but I do, and with the two of them flopping on the ground, a bunch of guys shooting at that range are just as likely to hit Negan as Rick, even hitting Negan through Rick.  And the distraction would have allowed his people to raise their guns and start shooting.  But doing nothing doesn't allow Rick to fight another day.  Having neutralized Alexandria, the Saviors would have headed to the other communities and taken them out, had they not turned the tables and surprised them at Alexandria.  And Judith would have been taken, and Maggie, and Rick at that point may as well just give it up.  The writers never should have written that showdown that way in the first place, it ruined Rick as a character for good.  How he can even look Carl in his one eye again is beyond me.

[smorbie]

7 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

I'll help you.

I can believe Michonne going up against someone, and not immediately kicking ass and winning.  What I don't buy is Michonne not hardly fighting back at all, and when she finally gets the upper hand and tosses junkyard idiot over the balcony, we don't get to see it.

I don't believe the flash of fear Negan had when he was talking to Rick because the odds have been stacked so far in Negan's favor.  Even when some of CDBs best fighters/shooters have the upper hand for just a moment, it's always someone besides Negan who ends up dead.

I loved Shiva saving Carl.  What's not to love about a Tiger?  However, NO ONE saying anything about the man eating (literally) Tiger coming into save the day was an epic fail.  Also, the Kingdom had better make sure to keep a good steady supply of meat on hand because now Shiva knows what live people taste like.

That woman was muscle bound.  Remember this isn't the beginning and almost everyone they meet is a seasoned fighter and very strong.  Plus, she had the element of surprise on her side.

My only problem with the fight and the scream announcing someone's death was that Negan somehow knew it was Michonne.  How could he have known she was involved in that fight?  They were too far away to see.

[Lady Iris]

11 hours ago, J----av said:

 The damn tiger couldn't have waited 5 more seconds so we could FINALLY be rid of Carl and his shitty acting

Lol! Shitty acting? Poor kid has barely had a mouthful of words to speak this 2nd half of the season. Personally I cant believe he still has the hat and that its still holding up.

I didn't mind this season finale. Shit-ton better than the torture porn of last season's I'll tell ya that. Plus I did get a kick out of Rick slowly backing away when Jadis propositioned him, like, "No thanks lady, Ima pass on that."

[smorbie]

13 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

 

I don't believe the flash of fear Negan had when he was talking to Rick because the odds have been stacked so far in Negan's favor.  Even when some of CDBs best fighters/shooters have the upper hand for just a moment, it's always someone besides Negan who ends up dead.

 

I think the fear was there because he realized Rick will never quit.  He can take everything Rick has, his children, his hands, his woman, his health, and Rick. Won't.Quit.  He had a moment of understanding that.  It's true he had the upper hand.  But, Rick is hard and stubborn and he won't be cowed again.  A smarter man would have killed Rick.

[DonitsYum]

5 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:

Plus I did get a kick out of Rick slowly backing away when Jadis propositioned him, like, "No thanks lady, Ima pass on that."

It would have been more believable if she had hit on Michonne instead! 

[smorbie]

6 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:

Lol! Shitty acting? Poor kid has barely had a mouthful of words to speak this 2nd half of the season. Personally I cant believe he still has the hat and that its still holding up.

I didn't mind this season finale. Shit-ton better than the torture porn of last season's I'll tell ya that. Plus I did get a kick out of Rick slowly backing away when Jadis propositioned him, like, "No thanks lady, Ima pass on that."

Poor Coral.  You know, the kid's problem is not that he can't act.  I've seen him in other movies and he's actually pretty good.  The writers don't know how to write for young people.  Enid suffers from the same thing.  

[riverheightsnancy]

In terms of going forward, I am hoping that Eugene is now under suspicion and THAT is what gets him back over to CDB and taking out Negan. While they have been setting up Rick to kill Negan (which is way too on the nose for me), I would like it to be Eugene. He gets crapped on at Alexandria and they expect him to be loyal. Lots of people (especially Rosita) have used him as an emotional dumping ground, berate him, yell at him-a person can only take so much. I would love for the meek to take out the powerful.