S02.E16: Doomworld

[MarkHB]

9 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Also, I freaking LOVE that they made the lab look like the actual Legion of Doom headquarters from the carton! This show, yall.

Indeed!  It was even lit with purple in the second shot of it!  I was hoping that the big project was going to make the building fly around.

 

9 hours ago, TDT said:

All that was missing was the 3 whooshing stars scene transition from Super Friends and a narrator saying "Meanwhile..at the Legion of Doom.."

* Moment of silence for the late, great Ted Knight. *

 

47 minutes ago, kirinan said:

I remember this, but I had managed to selectively forget it because they made him into such an interesting and layered character--as you said, once they brought his sister in. I'm going to go with what another poster mentioned, the thought that the LoD messed with his mind like they did Rip. Probably not so, but it allows me to get the bad taste out of my mouth for this version.

Either that, or they pulled him out of the timeline from early in the Flash's career, so that he has no meaningful connection with the rest of the Legends.  But I'm willing to bet that Lisa wound up in pretty decent shape in Doomworld; my question is, did Mick save his family?

[tennisgurl]

*Shallow* Jax looked super great in that Doomworld outfit. I know Doomworld sucks, but can he somehow keep the outfit?

Also, Ray in Doomworld had the pet rat he gave Mick for Christmas! And Mick named the rat Axel! Awwww, you guys. They threw me a bone at least.

[DearEvette]

That was fun!  What a a palate cleanser from the mopey Flash episode.

I love how everyone loved Nate's mom's sandwiches.  The meat to condiments ratio is important!

Man, I hope Amaya gets restored when they bring back the real reality! I will be depressed if she is really dead.

[cambridgeguy]

Quote

Either that, or they pulled him out of the timeline from early in the Flash's career, so that he has no meaningful connection with the rest of the Legends.  But I'm willing to bet that Lisa wound up in pretty decent shape in Doomworld; my question is, did Mick save his family?

It's almost like they switched Mick and Snart's personalities.  Snart was certainly willing to kill when we first saw him but he also liked the challenge of beating the authorities.  He literally thanked Barry for forcing him to up his game, so that would seem to be a pre-Barry trait that's vanished.   Mick, on the other hand, was more of a thug who was happy to cause havoc.  Now we have a Snart who doesn't mind rigged victories while Mick is bothered by it.

I'm not sure I buy Thawne having Barry killed (if Barry was the Flash in this reality) instead of locking him up and gloating but I definitely don't see him letting Darkh keep the cowl.  Maybe there's another one he likes to look at when he's feeling down or he has the rest of the costume somewhere.

[KirkB]

52 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

It's almost like they switched Mick and Snart's personalities.  Snart was certainly willing to kill when we first saw him but he also liked the challenge of beating the authorities.  He literally thanked Barry for forcing him to up his game, so that would seem to be a pre-Barry trait that's vanished.   Mick, on the other hand, was more of a thug who was happy to cause havoc.  Now we have a Snart who doesn't mind rigged victories while Mick is bothered by it.

That's a good point. Snart giving himself the ability to break into any building or security system or whatever is one thing, but a world where he literally can't fail to rob a bank because the police work for him? Where there is no challenge, no fun? That doesn't jibe with the guy from early Flash. I imagine the Legion did tamper with his mind, but given the kind of person he was it probably wouldn't have involved as much alteration as, say, Rip did.

52 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

I'm not sure I buy Thawne having Barry killed (if Barry was the Flash in this reality) instead of locking him up and gloating but I definitely don't see him letting Darkh keep the cowl.  Maybe there's another one he likes to look at when he's feeling down or he has the rest of the costume somewhere.

The only way I could envision Thawne letting Dark keep Barry's (or at least the Flash's) mask is if (and this is a creepy thought) he has Barry himself locked up somewhere, like zombie Zoom, where he can gloat and show him a repeating loop of his friends being killed.

Edited March 29, 2017 by KirkB

[GHScorpiosRule]

Yeah. I'm wondering why they didn't just release Black Flash or whoever that zombie Flash is, to take Thawne down a peg, or just so I could see that smug smirk falter and disappear from Thawne's face.

Like I mentioned in the other forum, I had no issue with how Felicity's appearance was handled, because I knew it wouldn't have been more than a cameo, and that whe would probably die.  At least she wasn't tortured, and it wasn't dragged out. And the only reason they caught her was because she broke her ankle when she jumped. And at least it was quick.

No way Amaya stays dead. We know what they're going to do in the finale, based on the previews, not to mention what they actually said at the end about going back to 1916 or whenever that was.

Color me shocked to discover that Rip and Waverider have been shrunk to the size of a toy.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

7 hours ago, yellowfred said:

9 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Also, we're supposed to believe that Amaya just ran away before Sara was shot with Ray's gun?

Yeah, that was weird.  Did we even see her leave?  Like, she was suddenly just gone, for no reason.

I rewound a few times to see if she had been knocked out, but she was choking Nate, I think, and then suddenly dropped out of the scene.  They had to have a reason that the others weren't able to immediately restore Amaya's memory, but it didn't really make sense.

[squidprincess]

I don't really think Snart was out of character, except maybe for his treatment of Mick at the end.  It surprised me that he was so at ease with owning the city, taking the challenge away from the robberies.  But it occurred to me that the robberies were only a way to pass time/keep Mick happy.  Snart didn't care about that challenge, because he was focused on a better one: getting the Spear from Eobard Thawne.

[tennisgurl]

The Snart that the Legion seemed to bring back seemed to be the Snart from the first episode of The Flash, or from before we ever met him. Which certainly makes sense. No way would they want to bring back the Snart who would join with the Legends, bond with the team, become so friendly with Team Flash that he appeared a few weeks ago as a guilt ghost to Barry, and eventually died to save the world. That guy wouldn't have been interested in being with such assholes.

Some of that is due to character development, and some is just that the writers realized after the first episode that they could do more with him as a more morally ambiguous character with sympathetic qualities and a code of honor, instead of the cold hearted (heh) murderer we met in his first appearance. Shows do that a lot, especially when they like a performer. Its a bit like how they dialed back on Rays more creeper assholes qualities pretty quickly from his first appearances in Arrow when they realized he worked better as a lovable doofus then an overly confident rival to Oliver, and just re-wrote him saying that his behavior was a mask for insecurities. Again, some of that can be explained by character development, but some is just making a better character. Maybe its a little cheap, but I would rather have writers working to make a character work better (especially when they already have a good actor playing them) then writers who are quick to write people off, or double down on things that don't work.

[Miss Dee]

Even without resorting to mind-meld shenanigans, I can fanwank that a year of Doomworld had two very different effects on Snart and Mick. Mick had a year to think about what he gave up and what he got in return. It was All For Leonard.

But a year in Doomworld might very well have cemented the worst of Snart's nature, especially with such a calibre of villain as he was hanging out with in Thawne, Dhark and Merlyn. So instead of retaining his code of ethics and the thrill of the chase - which seemed to be very central to him when he first encountered The Flash - he now has bigger fish to fry. Mick's company, which was once his primary source of human companionship, is now set against these other villains who are ambitious, like him; coldly ruthless, like him. Not big old sloppy Mick who just wants to avoid a job and raise a ruckus and generally hang out with his best friend. A year in Doomworld has moved him beyond that now.

And meanwhile, Mick has a year in Doomworld to realize that A, Leonard is not the man he was, and B, he himself is not the man he thought he was. Just as the Leonard of pre-Doomworld wouldn't have wanted a Grand Theft Auto cheat pass to steal in Central City, Mick absolutely would have used it - hey, less work! But Mick has spent two years with the Legends and countless eons as Chronos. The camaraderie of beating a challenge together, in partnership, that's what he wants. And here's Leonard: not giving a shit about planning a heist, not sharing information about his plans with him. Mick sold out his new friends for a chance to regain his old, and it's not at all what he expected it to be.

In the meantime, while Leonard is moving away from Mick and towards the Legion, Mick is in a world where he can see what's happened to his old comrades. He has to watch the man who killed the sister of his old captain now flirt with her as his underling doing his bidding. The woman he (maybe) loves, a hero who only came here to this time to avenge her lover and partner, is now trapped in this time killing the very kind of heroes she was once so proud to be. He knows Jax - Stein's partner, once so close they could read each other's emotional state - is now terrorizing the man. He has to live with all this. And when Nate comes in with just a *hint* of an inkling that he can sense there's something very wrong with all of this, Mick seizes his chance.

Leonard sees this as "growing soft" - and in a sense he's right, but he never sees that just as inevitably, he's growing hard. During the showdown in the lab, he tries to tempt Mick like he did before. But Mick is now jaded enough to see through his words, and throws them back at him: he knows that this Leonard only sees him as a pet, the way Thawne sees the others, because Leonard has grown to be like Thawne and the others. They have both chosen the people they want to be like and they've learned their lessons well.

And so Leonard does to Mick what Thawne would do to Barry Allen: does his best to destroy his world, taunting him as he does so. You could almost hear Leonard saying "Who's the villian now, Heatwave? Who's the villian now? "

Edited March 29, 2017 by Miss Dee
clarify thoughts

[AD35]

3 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Yeah. I'm wondering why they didn't just release Black Flash or whoever that zombie Flash is, to take Thawne down a peg, or just so I could see that smug smirk falter and disappear from Thawne's face.

 I'm thinking that maybe either they don't know about Black Flash/Zombie Flash or either if they did, Thawne might have in place some sort of technology/encryption codes to ensure that no one could tamper without alerting him.  Seeing that Black Flash is the only thing that Thawne truly fears, you can bet that he'd take any steps to make sure that any attempt to free him either by the Legends or his "allies"  would end in failure.

[kismet]

Were they supposed to be in Doomworld for an entire year? I must have missed that.

I do think that Mick cares for Amaya and probably feels responsible for her demise - but I still do not see a romantic love between them. Sorry, the only romantic love I ever saw on LoT was between s1 Snart & Sara; and Rip & his wife.

I do think it's likely that Mick might sacrifice himself next episode. And part of me would think that might be a nice cliffhanger. We know that LoT has been renewed, so I would love the writers to take the opportunity to make a good cliffhanger.

[Miss Dee]

Oh God, don't say it! I have a week to pretend everything is going to be all right!

[squidprincess]

28 minutes ago, kismet said:

Were they supposed to be in Doomworld for an entire year? I must have missed that.

Gideon confirmed it.  Basically Rip was trapped for a year on the Waverider, without power or communications.  (Which probably explains the loopiness.)  Since we now know that the Waverider isn't trapped in the Vortex, but is sitting on Eobard's desk, that would indicate that it's been a year for the others as well.

[Sakura12]

Ok, I missed this and it's super badass.

[MarkHB]

I rewound that bit to watch it again.

Also, shallow stuff regarding that S2 top and pleather pants.  :)

[Featherhat]

I enjoyed it. It was darker than LOT usually is and I was a little disappointed that the LOD returned to moustache twirling though. I was exactly right about what they would all want from a Doomworld except for Snart, who doesn't so much intricately plot heists anymore as turn up and make a withdrawal anytime he fancies. I guess its the affect of the Legion or that since he's no longer a regular or regularly recurring they aren't bothering with any layers.

Ray yelling about cleaning "so many" toilets was hilarious, BR does so much better with the comedy than the Love Interests. I liked Sara and Malcolm's face off, that was something I was hoping for considering he's been responsible for 3 of her "deaths" and props for DD for noticing that she never stays dead. I don't think Amaya will either. I hope she's staying for next season but if she isn't that won't be how they write her off.

I didn't have a problem with Felicity's cameo, although they hyped it up a lot for what it was. She went out defiant after all of her friends had been killed. She and Sara are friends in the true timeline so it's not a case of "humiliate the character or actress" IMHO.

[Argenta]

Eobard, Eobard. You're committing the classical villain's error of Leaving One's Mortal Enemies Alive to Gloat Over, and there is zero chance that won't come back to bite you in the ass, big time. 

Not just the Legends, but Rip and BlackZombieZoomFlash as well. Listen to Malcolm and dump the whole lot of them into that handy nuclear reactor. Followed by Malcolm himself. You can't trust him either.

Actually, it seems strange that Eobard would hang round in 2017 at all, given that getting home to his own time was his driving obsession for so long. You'd think he would want to return to his original 22nd century life.

The posters who said the Legion had reverted to mustache-twirling were correct - this was another very entertaining episode, but there wasn't a great deal of depth or subtlety in how the bad guys were portrayed. Shame, after recent episodes had done so well in giving them nuance and extra dimensions beyond just mwa-ha-ha'ing their way through the day.

Edited March 30, 2017 by Argenta

[kismet]

2 hours ago, squidprincess said:

Gideon confirmed it.  Basically Rip was trapped for a year on the Waverider, without power or communications.  (Which probably explains the loopiness.)  Since we now know that the Waverider isn't trapped in the Vortex, but is sitting on Eobard's desk, that would indicate that it's been a year for the others as well.

Thanks, I literally missed that.

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

Ok, I missed this and it's super badass.

I did not like that the Bimbo Squad was at DD's beckon call & I HATED the nickname - but I seriously would not mind seeing more of that SL & Amaya. The action scenes were awesome, definitely have them do it for good... but I'll take the duo again.

[TwistedandBored]

Felicity being the last hero standing was awesome to see. Loved her. 

Rip was useless.

The gang and where they ended up was fun to see.

I hope Amaya's death is reverse soon. 

[foreverevolving]

22 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Her costume looked a bit like Huntress, at least onscreen. I recall seeing pics of it online and thinking it did kind of look like Spoiler, though.

So if her costume looks like the huntress does this mean that it was Felicity that Olive trained rather than Helena? but instead of it going bad it went well...

[Cthulhudrew]

2 hours ago, TwistedandBored said:

Rip was useless.

Just you wait until it turns out that his cake baking saves the universe.

[squidprincess]

1 hour ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Just you wait until it turns out that his cake baking saves the universe.

The man was trapped on a miniaturized space ship alone for a year.  But as soon as Gideon was able to get some amount of power back online, he seemed pretty quickly able to get back into action.

In the mean time, he got to perfect a skill!  There are worse ways to deal with solitary imprisonment.  :-p

[johntfs]

One thing that's kind of interesting to consider is that for a large portion of the people on Doomworld, the world is a much better place.  Cold fusion means cheap, plentiful energy for all.  Solving global warming has huge implications for preventing natural disasters and feeding people.  Desalinization means drinking water for everyone.  And who doesn't like polar bears.  Sure life sucks for the relatively few people that are on the villains' shit lists, but life is probably much better for everyone else.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Loved seeing the LoD headquarters. Nate was good in this one. The whole double finger quotes in the car with Mick for "Legion of Doom" and "Spear of Destiny". The fact that Merlin was the only smart Doom member when he kept bitching about how they kept the legends alive. Snart almost breaking the 4th wall when he got on Damien about villain monologue's. The miniature wave rider (and previews of it shooting Damien). Constant comments about Nate's mom's great sandwiches.

Things I didn't like were Amaya being the only one to stand up for Mick (really thought Ray should have too). And how cold Snart was in killing her (thought Mick should have retaliated). At first I was upset that Snart did that,  thinking he was never that cruel, but when he was introduced on the Flash and first got the cold gun he did kill one of his henchmen... 

[Argenta]

44 minutes ago, johntfs said:

One thing that's kind of interesting to consider is that for a large portion of the people on Doomworld, the world is a much better place.  Cold fusion means cheap, plentiful energy for all.  Solving global warming has huge implications for preventing natural disasters and feeding people.  Desalinization means drinking water for everyone.  And who doesn't like polar bears.  Sure life sucks for the relatively few people that are on the villains' shit lists, but life is probably much better for everyone else.

That's an excellent point, and one that I totally missed on first watching. With all this in mind, it seems kind of selfish for the Legends to try to alter things back just because their lives aren't working out too well. Even Amaya's death doesn't count for a great deal in the cosmic books, compared to the number of people who will live instead.

I seriously doubt the Legends will give any of this any thought though. 

[Miss Dee]

About Mick not being able to kill Snart: it's a great parallel to the first season. Mick was ready to kill them all after the time pirates; he appeared to be a villain at that point. Leonard marooned him but couldn't bring himself to pull the trigger to finish him off.

I hope this doesn't interfere with a clean break between them. Mick betrayed them with the pirates but he didn't execute anyone in cold blood (PTP) the way Leonard murdered Amaya. There is no believable way Mick could forgive and forget that. Even if we ended up with Yet A Different Snart in Time, I'm not sure Mick is sophisticated enough to make the distinction.

[kismet]

Was Rip making cakes a shout-out to Dr. Who? Buffy? or something else?

I found it absolutely hysterical either way to watch. To be stuck baking perfect cakes for no one, must have been horrible.

[squidprincess]

1 hour ago, Argenta said:

That's an excellent point, and one that I totally missed on first watching. With all this in mind, it seems kind of selfish for the Legends to try to alter things back just because their lives aren't working out too well. Even Amaya's death doesn't count for a great deal in the cosmic books, compared to the number of people who will live instead.

I seriously doubt the Legends will give any of this any thought though. 

We don't know what the average person's life is like though.  Eobard may have fixed environmental issues, but he has also set up murders of every known superhero (or Darhk did, but still), and Nyssa has been forced into the closet which doesn't speak well for LGBTQ issues.  Trump is implicitly president, so that would maybe indicate where the country falls in the sociopolitical end.  Martin's treatment would imply labor laws may not be a factor either anymore.

Eobard has good press, but that doesn't necessarily mean the world is better.

[Sakura12]

5 minutes ago, kismet said:

Was Rip making cakes a shout-out to Dr. Who? Buffy? or something else?

I found it absolutely hysterical either way to watch. To be stuck baking perfect cakes for no one, must have been horrible.

I thought it was a reference to The Great British Baker off. He did make what looked like a Time cake which could be a shout out to Doctor Who. 

[kismet]

7 hours ago, foreverevolving said:

So if her costume looks like the huntress does this mean that it was Felicity that Olive trained rather than Helena? but instead of it going bad it went well...

I don't think that was anywhere in the writers or LoD minds when they created FS, the vigilante. It is kind of a cool idea, frankly I don't know how far back the LoD reset the timeline/reality. It was a year of difference, so my personal theory is that FS picked up the mask when others were failing or falling. I do really think the idea floating around that the hood comes from OQ or is a tribute to him is probably likely. The hood does look like a dark green and really looks like s4 OQ's hood.

Logistically, I really think it was a matter of the costume department having limited colors to choose. FS is smart enough to know dark colors work best, but she wanted to be more feminine than just all black. Plus it helps differentiate her from the Bimbo squad or even BC. So dark purple really works best.

1 hour ago, Miss Dee said:

About Mick not being able to kill Snart: it's a great parallel to the first season. Mick was ready to kill them all after the time pirates; he appeared to be a villain at that point. Leonard marooned him but couldn't bring himself to pull the trigger to finish him off.

I hope this doesn't interfere with a clean break between them. Mick betrayed them with the pirates but he didn't execute anyone in cold blood (PTP) the way Leonard murdered Amaya. There is no believable way Mick could forgive and forget that. Even if we ended up with Yet A Different Snart in Time, I'm not sure Mick is sophisticated enough to make the distinction.

I think they set up a betrayal of Snart so big with Amaya's destruction, that they can have it be a permanent break between them if WM decides not to come back to the show in any capacity. However, if WM wants to come back, I think they could work together a redemption arc for him, since the current Snart is really not the Snart that the Legends & audience know/love. The Snart we have now is the pure villain one that has not learned to love again yet.

[StaceyNotStacie]

4 hours ago, squidprincess said:

The man was trapped on a miniaturized space ship alone for a year.  But as soon as Gideon was able to get some amount of power back online, he seemed pretty quickly able to get back into action.

In the mean time, he got to perfect a skill!  There are worse ways to deal with solitary imprisonment.  :-p

I just hope we get a scene of the Legends sitting around eating cake and commenting how delicious the cakes are. 

[darkestboy]

Ah, the bad universe one where Felicity is a rubbish hero that gets killed in two seconds by Sara and Amaya. Let that be the only time the show indulges in suiting Felicity up please.

I agree with Malcolm though. Keeping the Legends alive was pure stupidity on Eobard's part but it was nice to see that as Mick caused the mess that it was also him who tried to fix things as well.

Shame Amaya died in this one but I guess she'll be back next week. She better be though. Still wouldn't be sad to lose Nate though.

Rip's baking skills though for the win. Loved a certain cake and I did kind of laugh a little when it was revealed what happened to the Waverider though, 8/10

[Miss Dee]

@kismet, that's a great point. And it gives me a little bit of hope that maybe Mick *won't* die, because why go through all the trouble to break them up so permanently beforehand if he does? If Mick was going to sacrifice himself, it'd be more poignant if he *couldn't* choose between Leonard and the Legends* and this was the one way he could take care of and be loyal to all of them at once.

*My new band name - no stealing!

[kassygreene]

3 hours ago, kismet said:

Was Rip making cakes a shout-out to Dr. Who? Buffy? or something else?

I found it absolutely hysterical either way to watch. To be stuck baking perfect cakes for no one, must have been horrible.

The collection of (mostly) sampled cakes and all that loose flour does seem to be the Great British Bake-Off.  However, the concept of a person stranded alone, or in this case stranded alone with a very under-powered Gideon, is very very similar to our first sighting of (Clara) Oswin Oswald in "Asylum of the Daleks", sole survivor of a wrecked ship, who kept trying to make the perfect souffle.

[Miss Dee]

@Stacey1014: Rip's cake and Nate's sandwiches, learned from his mom. If Mick does stay on the Waverider, we know why!

[tennisgurl]

6 hours ago, squidprincess said:

Eobard has good press, but that doesn't necessarily mean the world is better.

That's what I'm thinking. He might have helped make some things better, but its fully possible his world is a totally fascist dictatorship where people are fed propaganda about how awesome he is constantly, while the people who actually work for him clearly find him terrifying, and anyone who tries to oppose him just goes away. Maybe we will see more of it next episode? Plus, I cant imagine a place where its totally cool that a major figure keeps trophies from people he's had killed in his office is a super perfect place to be.

On the other hand...sandwiches!

[MissLucas]

"You wanna a chase? I can arrange a chase, even get us tossed in Iron Heights and we can plan an escape like old times, how does that sound?"

"Boring!"

This does not bode well for the 'Prison Break' reboot.

I definitely took Rip's fondant bows as a shout-out to Eleven (remember bow-ties are cool).

Edited March 31, 2017 by MissLucas
Mixing up Doctors.

[foreverevolving]

1 hour ago, MissLucas said:

"You wanna a chase? I can arrange a chase, even get us tossed in Iron Heights and we can plan an escape like old times, how does that sound?"

"Boring!"

This does not bode well for the 'Prison Break' reboot.

I definitely took Rip's fondant bows as a shout-out to Ten (remember bow-ties are cool).

Eleven.

[Lokiberry]

14 minutes ago, foreverevolving said:

Eleven.

Yes, The coat is a shout-out to Ten.

[MarkHB]

17 hours ago, johntfs said:

One thing that's kind of interesting to consider is that for a large portion of the people on Doomworld, the world is a much better place.  Cold fusion means cheap, plentiful energy for all.  Solving global warming has huge implications for preventing natural disasters and feeding people.  Desalinization means drinking water for everyone.  And who doesn't like polar bears.  Sure life sucks for the relatively few people that are on the villains' shit lists, but life is probably much better for everyone else.

If Thawne had wanted to, he could have done all that when he was Harrison Wells.  Or even as Thawne in a normal timeline.

[foreverevolving]

2 hours ago, Lokiberry said:

Yes, The coat is a shout-out to Ten.

But she's not talking about the coat, rather about the bows on top of the cake added by "bow ties are cool"- which is a known 11th doctor catchphrase since he wore them.

[legaleagle53]

On 3/29/2017 at 6:09 PM, Argenta said:

Actually, it seems strange that Eobard would hang round in 2017 at all, given that getting home to his own time was his driving obsession for so long. You'd think he would want to return to his original 22nd century life.

He can't.  The fact that Black Flash exists even in this new reality is proof that Eobard himself is still a time remnant who isn't supposed to exist because his ancestor Eddie still killed himself in the new timeline in order to prevent Eobard from being born. That means that there's still no 22nd Century life for Eobard to return to.  That's why he's living in 2017.

18 hours ago, johntfs said:

One thing that's kind of interesting to consider is that for a large portion of the people on Doomworld, the world is a much better place.  Cold fusion means cheap, plentiful energy for all.  Solving global warming has huge implications for preventing natural disasters and feeding people.  Desalinization means drinking water for everyone.  And who doesn't like polar bears.  Sure life sucks for the relatively few people that are on the villains' shit lists, but life is probably much better for everyone else.

Uh-huh.  And Mussolini made the trains run on time.  Sorry, but the end doesn't justify the means.  The Legion of Doom chose to interfere with people's free will by essentially playing God with the Spear of Destiny.  Even God Himself doesn't interfere with people's free will, which is why He lets them make mistakes that lead to climate change and other problems that plague Earth because He expects them to work those problems out for themselves.  It's like the ultimate Prime Directive.

[twoods]

I love this show, but am hating the writers for crapping on Snart's character. He died a hero's death, yet now he's a vengeful asshole who killed Amaya. Why, show, why? 

Everyone's reaction to Amaya dying was heartbreaking, as was Jax's reaction to Stein hating him. I hope everything gets restored once they go back into time, but I'm sure not everyone is coming out alive.

How can there be a show where I root for the heroes and the villains?  The LOD are so much fun together, but in the end I don't want them to win. I just want them around, that's all.

[Trini]

6 hours ago, MissLucas said:

"You wanna a chase? I can arrange a chase, even get us tossed in Iron Heights and we can plan an escape like old times, how does that sound?"

"Boring!"

This does not bode well for the 'Prison Break' reboot.

Hee! Loved the shout to PB. LOVED IT!

[Lokiberry]

6 hours ago, foreverevolving said:

But she's not talking about the coat, rather about the bows on top of the cake added by "bow ties are cool"- which is a known 11th doctor catchphrase since he wore them.

I'm meant the bow tie was for Eleven and the coat was for Ten.

[johntfs]

8 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

Uh-huh.  And Mussolini made the trains run on time.  Sorry, but the end doesn't justify the means.  The Legion of Doom chose to interfere with people's free will by essentially playing God with the Spear of Destiny.  Even God Himself doesn't interfere with people's free will, which is why He lets them make mistakes that lead to climate change and other problems that plague Earth because He expects them to work those problems out for themselves.  It's like the ultimate Prime Directive.

Clean, abundant energy, food and water are really good ends for the people that lack them.  If me or my (admittedly hypothetical) kids were dying from that lack, I'd be inclined to bow down to Eobard Thawne if he was going to provide a permanent remedy for that situation.  Sure Thawne is a shitty human being.  So were Henry Ford and Thomas Edison, but I wouldn't want to go without cars or light bulbs.  I don't mind that the Legends will ultimately decide to do what they need to restore things, I just wish that the costs of that restoration had been even a small part of the discussion.

Edited March 31, 2017 by johntfs

[squidprincess]

34 minutes ago, johntfs said:

Clean, abundant energy, food and water are really good ends for the people that lack them.  If me or my (admittedly hypothetical) kids were dying from that lack, I'd be inclined to bow down to Eobard Thawne if he was going to provide a permanent remedy for that situation.  Sure Thawne is a shitty human being.  So were Henry Ford and Thomas Edison, but I wouldn't want to go without cars or light bulbs.  I don't mind that the Legends will ultimately decide to do what they need to restore things, I just wish that the costs of that restoration had been even a small part of the discussion.

We don't know that everyone on Earth has access to clean, abundant energy, food and water, really.  Nate believes that Eobard has provided these things, but how much does the average American know about the access that people from other countries, or even other socio-economic positions in this country, have to resources.  Eobard and his ilk are absolutely the sort to leverage their monopolies of these things for power.

What we do know is that per Nate's conspiracy board, the Mayor of Star City is publicly known to be involved in murders.  That might imply a certain thwarting of the democratic process.  (We also know that he employs his own death squad in Sara and Amaya).

That the police in Central City are corrupt, owned by a violent criminal, who still happily engages in violent crime.  Likely this is true for other law enforcement bodies as well.

That life for openly LGBTQ people is probably not great if NYSSA AL GHUL has been forced to go back in the closet.

That clearly labor laws are no protection, going by Martin's situation.  Additionally, both Martin AND Jax were very afraid of Eobard Thawne.

We know that superheroes have been actively involved in trying to fight the villains of Doomworld, not just the idealists, but the pragmatists as well.  That would imply then that life for the normal person is not particularly good either.

Heck, we can also extrapolate things from the fact that Nate went to Eobard Thawne, rather than any governmental official to talk about the issue with reality.  Eobard has good press and is not openly affiliated with the government.

We also know that Eobard Thawne, in the standard reality, was the man who caused the particle accelerator explosion which killed and permanently transformed a lot of people.  He has Star Labs at his beck and call, and has just created a device with more power than multiple suns.  Do we really think he is going to stop at destroying the spear?

Furthermore, the team themselves have lived for a year with the false memories of people from this reality.  So they actually do know what life is like for the average person.  We see no hesitation or indication from any team member that indicates that life on Doomworld is actually better for anyone.  Even characters like Nate or Ray, who weren't suffering all that much and tend to be more concerned with ordinary people, don't indicate any hesitation.  (And Nate's the one who praised Eobard, recall.)  I think honestly, that says enough about what life is like under Eobard's rule right there.  If Eobard wanted to, he could absolutely enact his environmental changes in the real universe.  He had plenty of time, when playing Harrison Wells.  He didn't, because that was never what his plans were really about.

[kirinan]

9 hours ago, twoods said:

I love this show, but am hating the writers for crapping on Snart's character. He died a hero's death, yet now he's a vengeful asshole who killed Amaya. Why, show, why? 

That's what I would like to know. Sometimes I think the writers on these DC shows just write out plot points on a deck of cards, throw them up in the air, and whatever gets grabbed up in a game of 52 Pickup gets filmed the next episode. Clearly the character cards get lost behind the couch.

Edited March 31, 2017 by kirinan

[Sakura12]

They do tend to write for plot more then character on these CWDC shows. They want to write a certain plot and they mangle the character to fit into that plot.