S02.E14: Moonshot

[cambridgeguy]

17 minutes ago, Lokiberry said:

If Amaya is leaving, I agree they ought to consider having Amy Pemberton play a live action version of Gideon. She got a very positive reception, and her character would be unlike anybody else on the show. Of course, they could just get rid of Nate, keep Amaya, and have three women on the show. Anarchy!

Nate is kind of like an amalgam of Ray (doofus, ill-fated romance) and Rip (knows about history), plus he has a potentially expensive superpower (I'm not sure how expensive the Colossus effect is to CGI).  There's really no reason to keep all three around and I think the other two have deeper character arcs to pursue.  As for Amaya, hopefully the last scene isn't setting her up to try to use the Spear to change her crappy future. 

[Lokiberry]

5 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

Nate is kind of like an amalgam of Ray (doofus, ill-fated romance) and Rip (knows about history), plus he has a potentially expensive superpower (I'm not sure how expensive the Colossus effect is to CGI).  There's really no reason to keep all three around and I think the other two have deeper character arcs to pursue.  As for Amaya, hopefully the last scene isn't setting her up to try to use the Spear to change her crappy future. 

That's the problem. They don't need Nate, Ray and Rip, and  the show has so many characters to write for; it makes me worry. I kinda feel like they brought Nate in to be  the Regular Guy: i.e. an irresponsible man-baby, who's job it is to bro around mocking the smart, serious people, and reducing his love interest to an uptight, lecture-y prig. See also, Mon-El of Supergirl.

The flarrowverse has a lot of personalities, and personality disorders, but it's never had this kind of character before, and now it has two. I wonder what's the story behind it?

[ketose]

It seems like they wanted to introduce Citizen Steel and the JSA, while explaining Rip's disappearance. Nate filled in for Rip's concern for history, because the others barely care. Nate also became the newbie who gets expositioned to because Rip wasn't around to do that to the team.

At the outset, this was a vehicle for Sara, Ray and Captain Cold. Cold is mostly gone, Rip was gone half the season, the hawks are thankfully gone and Firestorm may be next. It's hard to tell what the best team is, but it may just be part of the show that the configuration changes every season. 

[ohjoy]

31 minutes ago, ketose said:

It seems like they wanted to introduce Citizen Steel and the JSA, while explaining Rip's disappearance. Nate filled in for Rip's concern for history, because the others barely care. Nate also became the newbie who gets expositioned to because Rip wasn't around to do that to the team.

He's done his job, and Rip is back now. Nate can go.

[Princess Lucky]

So, when did this show become the best Flarrowverse show? Sometime this season, if you ask me.

Such a fun episode (though I admit I fast-forwarded through most of Nate's scenes, which enhanced the viewing experience). Matt Letscher is so good, and used perfectly here, and he's really making me root for Thawne, in a weird way. When he said he missed the camaraderie between scientists (because now he's either alone or stuck with the other two villains who are, let's say, intellectually inferior), I felt for him. And I loved his scenes with Ray. I've actually come to enjoy this version of Ray, when I mostly disliked him on Arrow.

Stein and Mick are honestly the best dynamic on the entire show. Any time they interact is golden.

Re; Sara and Rip, I agree with this:

6 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I also think the team has been functioning without him for awhile, they were just doing what they normally do. I didn't see Sara acting any different, Rip just wasn't included because they aren't used to him being there anymore. Even Gideon was referring to Sara as Captain. So it looked like something was decided off screen. 

It could also be the team isn't a 100 percent ready to trust Rip. They know he was brainwashed and understand, but it still can't be easy to forget everything he did. It also didn't help when he went off his own to figure out the problem, while Sara and the team were together working out the problem. If he wants to be involved with the team he has to you know involve them. 

Indeed, the team had gotten used to operating without Rip, and they'd come to see Sara as a leader. That's why Rip's return didn't automatically make him their captain, in their eyes. They had a captain already. I didn't mind that storyline at all, and I say that as someone who isn't usually Sara's biggest fan (and actively disliked her on Arrow, as well, come to think of it). I think she's come into her own as a leader/the captain.

This show has its issues, but it's a lot of fun (most of the time), so I can let certain things slide. If only the rest of the Flarrowverse shows were more like it.

[pancake bacon]

13 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Letscher and Cavanagh. That would be cool.

It's an Eli Stone father and son reunion! Cavanagh was Papa Stone and Letscher was son, Nate. Maybe Sherlock will fly in from New York to solve things. (Jonny Lee Miller played Eli.)

[Starfish35]

6 minutes ago, RandomMe said:

He's done his job, and Rip is back now. Nate can go.

Sadly, I don't think he's going anywhere, but yes, he would certainly be my choice to vote off the island team. 

Regarding Mon-El vs Nate, I'm about four episodes behind on Supergirl so I can't speak to any recent developments, but at least for me the difference is that Chris Wood is a much more engaging actor.  Nick Zano is not a bad actor at all, certainly better than Falk Hentschel last year, but he doesn't have Chris's charisma to help overcome some of the writing flaws.

[blackwing]

I must be one of the only people who likes Nate.  When he first started, I thought he was a square blockhead, but he has grown on me.  I empathised with him a lot.  I never knew either of my grandfathers, so I felt for Nate a lot in this episode.  Some episodes ago, he got to meet the grandfather he never knew, the one he always thought of as a hero.  Then fate brings them together again.  Not only does Nate lose him again for good, but he has to actually watch it.  I infinitely prefer Nate over Ray, so if there is only room for one of them on this show, I'd prefer to keep Nate.  Nate has cooler powers and the team needs a strong guy.

Things I don't understand, which others have echoed above:  

1) Isn't Mission Control going to wonder what happened to Swigert?  I think the audio feed cut out for all of when Thawne resumed his natural form, including the part where he and Ray crashed the LEM onto the moon, so Mission control probably wouldn't even know that they almost didn't get off the moon.  But they left Earth with three astronauts and only came back with two, so you would think they would at least wonder where he went.

2) Wouldn't Firestorm have been useful since he can, you know, actually fly in space?  Those powers could have been useful to try and slow the ship or create a heat shield.  Or something.

3)  Why couldn't Thawne use his powers in space?  Made no sense to me at all.  I guess it's so Henry could sacrifice himself.  Because otherwise, Thawn should have been able to pull the airlock and fuzz through the wall.  Also, when they were back on earth, Ray said to him that he didn't have time to search the ship for the piece of the Spear.  What?  Couldn't he have searched the entire ship in two seconds?

14 hours ago, Lokiberry said:

I must be the only one who didn't enjoy Martin bursting into song. I had to cover my eyes in second hand embarrassment.

I'm right there with you.  I hated it, it was embarrassing and it's obvious the only reason why they included it was so Victor Garber could sing.  And it was entirely inappropriate.  If I were any of those Mission Control people I would have been all "STFU, our people are possibly dying, we need to find them, save your singing for the shower".  Not sure why they let it go on for as long as they did.

2 hours ago, ketose said:

She could also faint every time the computer goes down, like in Andromeda. Since it looks like Amaya's leaving this season, Gideon would make an interesting replacement. Plus, she could have Android powers without the expensive CGI or costuming of the Atom suit or Steel.

So far I've seen people on these boards over the past months say that it looks like Martin is leaving, Ray is leaving, Nate is leaving, and Amaya is leaving.  Are there any confirmed reports anywhere, or is this just speculation based on two minutes of an episode?  I wouldn't be surprised if none of them are leaving.

[Starfish35]

8 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Are there any confirmed reports anywhere, or is this just speculation based on two minutes of an episode?  I wouldn't be surprised if none of them are leaving.

Answering in Spoilers thread.

[ElleMo]

2 hours ago, blackwing said:

3)  Why couldn't Thawne use his powers in space?  Made no sense to me at all.  I guess it's so Henry could sacrifice himself.  Because otherwise, Thawn should have been able to pull the airlock and fuzz through the wall.  Also, when they were back on earth, Ray said to him that he didn't have time to search the ship for the piece of the Spear.  What?  Couldn't he have searched the entire ship in two seconds?

1

Yes, but the zombie flash is coming and he needs to be more than two seconds ahead of it.

[mrspidey]

18 hours ago, Pepper the Cat said:

Wouldn't NASA be questioning why they sent a shuttle up with 3 astronauts but only 2 returned? 

Wouldn't the 2 returning astronauts be wondering what happened to that third guy? 

That's just Legends for you. It's gonna be filed under the same category as the team killing Tokugawa Iemitsu ten years before his actual death or Mick becoming a statue: "Shit happens when you're trying to protect the timeline"

Edited March 15, 2017 by mrspidey

[zannej]

I just had a thought: If lack of gravity was the reason Eobard's superspeed wasn't working, then why didn't it work when they were on the moon? The moon has gravity (albeit lower gravity than Earth's). Also, there was gravity on the Waverider-- so, if it was a gravity thing, then why wouldn't Thawne have gotten his speed back as soon as he boarded the ship? Or, was he just keeping good on his promise to "play nice" until they got back to Earth?

Granted, it's possible that Ray was just wrong about the reason for Thawne not having superspeed. Maybe the speedforce only operates on Earth? Could it be a proximity thing?

I wonder when that will come to bite them later if they ever try to have Barry Allen go into space.

[squidprincess]

I think the issue, in both cases, was where exactly was he going to go from there?  Presumably, he'd be able to leave the lander to the moon, but he doesn't have oxygen or a space suit.  He can't run from the moon to Earth, so he still needs a way home.  Likewise, he could escape the Waverider and end up in a vacuum.  

He needed the Waverider to get back to Earth just as much as the crew did.  So it makes sense that he wouldn't try to escape until afterward.

[zannej]

31 minutes ago, squidprincess said:

I think the issue, in both cases, was where exactly was he going to go from there?  Presumably, he'd be able to leave the lander to the moon, but he doesn't have oxygen or a space suit.  He can't run from the moon to Earth, so he still needs a way home.  Likewise, he could escape the Waverider and end up in a vacuum.  

He needed the Waverider to get back to Earth just as much as the crew did.  So it makes sense that he wouldn't try to escape until afterward.

So do you think he was faking not having his speed?

He did have an astronaut suit he could have used (unless it was punctured). I mean, really, if he'd had his speed while on the moon he could have stolen Ray's suit from him in a flash and then used it himself-- unless he just doesn't know how to use it-- but given that an ancient Japanese bad guy figured out how to use it, I think Eobard could too.  Of course, he would still need to find a way to get back to Earth-- and he probably needed the Waverider for that, so perhaps he just orchestrated things that way and he was just manipulating them. While I do think there was some truth to what he said to Ray, I do think that he's always playing mind games and he was subtly manipulating him. The fact that he was already prepared to tell Ray the angle of entry showed that he'd been planning things through more than they might have thought-- but he didn't end up with the spear fragment, so things obviously didn't go exactly as planned.

I also wonder if he delayed using his speed so that he would have more time to get away before Hunter could track him-- given hat Hunter seems to be able to track him by his usage of the speedforce. So, what if he just refrained from using his speed in space and on the moon because he didn't want to attract Hunter until he knew he would be able to get away.

Edited March 15, 2017 by zannej

[BkWurm1]

8 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

I'm not really objecting to anything or anyone's actions (including Sara) from an in-show perspective.  My issues are from an out-of-show perspective, in the writing choices.  I feel like we should have seen a conversation somewhere about who was going to be in command.  If it was agreed beforehand that Sara was staying in command, we should have seen that.  It would have given the right perspective to the rest of the episode. I also feel like there should have been some sort of follow up to that blow up between Sara and Rip about him scattering them through time.  That was a setup for a deeper conversation between the two of them that never happened.  It was never addressed in that conversation at the end.    

But basically I think it just comes down to what I said in my first post.  I don't like feeling like I'm being manipulated, even when I was already on board with the particular agenda being promoted (Sara as Captain).   And I feel like some important scenes/character moments were skipped over, that would have made things flow better.   But...well.  It is what it is.  We'll see where we go from here.

I think this is where writing style for TV gets in the way.  Yes, that would have been an important scene and yet if they framed it as Rip being fine with Sara being captain or her insisting on remaining captain, then the audience expects to see that nope, Rip should take over after all.  If they write it as Rip expecting to be captain, then they have to deal with the absurdity of him even thinking that after all that had happened.

 If they write a rational conversation between Rip and Sara where they calmly decide why she should remain in charge, then everything we saw with Rip not fitting in, feels out of place because of course he wouldn't be the one deciding or solving most of this stuff.

  I think by them NOT addressing it overtly but just letting the characters act without the conversation, the writers felt they could get away with Rip kind of still acting like he should be captain without him actually saying it or even thinking it on purpose.   It doesn't account for how human behave, but it fits the TV writers understanding of how to write a show.  

5 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Nate is kind of like an amalgam of Ray (doofus, ill-fated romance) and Rip (knows about history), plus he has a potentially expensive superpower (I'm not sure how expensive the Colossus effect is to CGI).  There's really no reason to keep all three around and I think the other two have deeper character arcs to pursue.  As for Amaya, hopefully the last scene isn't setting her up to try to use the Spear to change her crappy future. 

I do think the spear will be used to keep Amaya.  I'm sure they want to keep her.  I want to keep her as well.  We need to find out more about how the spear works.  Could it keep her "destiny" (the modern day Vixen) intact while also freeing her to not have to live through it?

4 hours ago, RandomMe said:

He's done his job, and Rip is back now. Nate can go.

That's were my head is too.  I don't like how Nate has encroached on Ray's stuff.  Personality, voice, and even the suits look similar. I hate the idea of losing Ray for Nate or Rip for Nate (or worse, both)  Ray has an innocence about him that Nate just can't pull off.  He'll always be the impostor to me.     

1 hour ago, ElleMo said:

Yes, but the zombie flash is coming and he needs to be more than two seconds ahead of it.

Interestingly enough over on last night's The Flash, Barry had the same zombie flash come after him.  Technically since Barry killed his earlier self while fighting Zoom, doesn't that make Barry a time remnant as well?

[Starfish35]

Oh good grief, I have a lot of patience with the absurdities of time travel plot holes because it's a favorite trope (is that the right word?) of mine.  I can handwave a whole lot, but for whatever reason I just cannot with The Flash and their "time remnants.  *facepalm*

I hope you're right about keeping Amaya.  I would certainly like to have her stay.  But it just feels like they're setting her up to go back and face her destiny at the end of the season. 

[squidprincess]

15 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

 If they write a rational conversation between Rip and Sara where they calmly decide why she should remain in charge, then everything we saw with Rip not fitting in, feels out of place because of course he wouldn't be the one deciding or solving most of this stuff.

  I think by them NOT addressing it overtly but just letting the characters act without the conversation, the writers felt they could get away with Rip kind of still acting like he should be captain without him actually saying it or even thinking it on purpose.   It doesn't account for how human behave, but it fits the TV writers understanding of how to write a show.  

I don't think Rip's behavior would have been strange if they'd had the conversation on screen.  I didn't get the idea that he was consciously trying to take leadership.  It's just that there were certain things he was used to doing for these missions.  Back when Rip was leading, he would have been the one using Gideon to track Heywood down.   And he was used to having the general plan.  

I think the real issue is that, from Rip's perspective, a lot less time has passed since Out of Time than for the rest of the group.  We don't know how long he was Phil Gasmer, but he hadn't really been RIP during that time.   Then of course, he was captured and brainwashed.   While we know he does have memories of that time, it's still got to be a mind boggling experience.

For Rip, as Rip, his experiences through the second season may well be summed up as: he reaches for the time drive, then wakes up in the infirmary a few hours before they go to find Commander Heywood.  He's had a LOT to readjust to in a short amount of time.

21 minutes ago, zannej said:

So do you think he was faking not having his speed?

I don't think he was faking it when they were in the lander originally.  There was no gravity then, and no possibility for friction.  I think he might have been faking it once they were on the moon proper.  Or just uneasy about trying to use his speed in that environment (especially if the Black Flash came after him: he'd have nowhere to run.)

Edited March 15, 2017 by squidprincess

[Cekrypton1]

Ooh, it's the episode of Legends of Tomorrow when the ship is damaged and they meet a famous person!

Matt Letscher is a treasure and he is doing great work. It's just too bad it's in the ghetto of Legends of Tomorrow.

[kathyk24]

5 hours ago, blackwing said:

I must be one of the only people who likes Nate.  When he first started, I thought he was a square blockhead, but he has grown on me.  I empathised with him a lot.  I never knew either of my grandfathers, so I felt for Nate a lot in this episode.  Some episodes ago, he got to meet the grandfather he never knew, the one he always thought of as a hero.  Then fate brings them together again.  Not only does Nate lose him again for good, but he has to actually watch it.  I infinitely prefer Nate over Ray, so if there is only room for one of them on this show, I'd prefer to keep Nate.  Nate has cooler powers and the team needs a strong guy.

Things I don't understand, which others have echoed above:  

1) Isn't Mission Control going to wonder what happened to Swigert?  I think the audio feed cut out for all of when Thawne resumed his natural form, including the part where he and Ray crashed the LEM onto the moon, so Mission control probably wouldn't even know that they almost didn't get off the moon.  But they left Earth with three astronauts and only came back with two, so you would think they would at least wonder where he went.

2) Wouldn't Firestorm have been useful since he can, you know, actually fly in space?  Those powers could have been useful to try and slow the ship or create a heat shield.  Or something.

3)  Why couldn't Thawne use his powers in space?  Made no sense to me at all.  I guess it's so Henry could sacrifice himself.  Because otherwise, Thawn should have been able to pull the airlock and fuzz through the wall.  Also, when they were back on earth, Ray said to him that he didn't have time to search the ship for the piece of the Spear.  What?  Couldn't he have searched the entire ship in two seconds?

I'm right there with you.  I hated it, it was embarrassing and it's obvious the only reason why they included it was so Victor Garber could sing.  And it was entirely inappropriate.  If I were any of those Mission Control people I would have been all "STFU, our people are possibly dying, we need to find them, save your singing for the shower".  Not sure why they let it go on for as long as they did.

So far I've seen people on these boards over the past months say that it looks like Martin is leaving, Ray is leaving, Nate is leaving, and Amaya is leaving.  Are there any confirmed reports anywhere, or is this just speculation based on two minutes of an episode?  I wouldn't be surprised if none of them are leaving.

You aren't the only one who preferred Nate to Ray I do too. I cried when Nate's grandfather died and I saw Nate's grief.

[Sakura12]

I felt more of Commander Steel since I like him. Nate being selfish is nothing new, he's been like that all season. Especially since we saw Sara choose the mission over getting her sister back. 

As for the third guy, if Thawne didn't kill him he's probably stuffed in closet somewhere. It would be interesting to see what the movie is about now. 

Martin singing was supposed to be awkward, that's what made it funny to me. 

[tofutan]

I think structurally adding Nate might make sense. He is the newbie on the ship, so early on a lot focused on his enthusiasm on the whole "Time Travel is so cool". Granted, we also have this covered by Ray to some extent. And what we also have is that as the newbie and as a guy who hasn't really been established by any other show, he is now the one who is most willing to not give a damn about the timeline. By now, most of the other characters are veterans to this whole time business and have learned some lessons about it. But since he is new, he can still take the stance of "Yes, we totally should screw over time for relatively minor things like my dad having a happy childhood, so I can get along with him better". 

In regards to the Captains, Rip also seemed a bit tired/depressed to me. Like he wasn't fully emotionally ready (maybe due to guilt reasons) to take over anyway, even if the team would have had him. Maybe being captain would have distracted him from his emotional funk (or at least  would not have added to his not knowing what his place in the world is), but I think a good argument can also be made in favor of him maybe having to work on his funk first, or that maybe he would have had those doubts even if he had come back to the captain's chair. 

[Miss Dee]

I love the idea of Rip needing to get his mojo back. Lots of the crew have rediscovered their mojo on the Waverider; now it's his turn.

I also liked how the show emphasized the difference between Rip and Sara's management styles. Sara has the Captain Picard style - get everybody around the table and brainstorm until the solution presents itself; make the hard decisions when you need to but otherwise trust your team. Even the difficult ones, like Mick. And it works with such a motley crew; they're more likely to go along with the decision because they had a hand in creating it. That's Managing Employees 101.

In contrast, because Rip is used to making the decisions himself as a sole participant, he's used to relying on his own wits and experience and knowledge. He's not used to teamwork. We can see this when they had to determine what happened with Heywood. Sara stood with the crew and brainstormed while Rip isolated himself in his library and looked for the answer. And not to take anything away from him because he's brilliant and resourceful, it's just *slower*. More times than not, a cohesive team gets the answer faster than a single subject-matter expert because of the power of leveraging brain activity. But Rip has never had to do this. He's clinging to a more autocratic style of leadership because that's what he knows, and that's just not going to work with this particular crew.

So I'm really hoping that when they get into the meat of Season 3, Rip is able to relax a little bit and just enjoy doing the things he's good at and building relationships with these people without the burden of command getting in the way. He'll learn to become a team player and that, more than anything, is what he needs to work on to become a stellar captain. That's what's going to get his mojo back.

[ketose]

Thawne's favorite speedster power is vibrating his hand to slice through people. I can see how that wouldn't work in zero-g because he's not anchored and even if he was, he would vibrate the capsule apart. Micro-gravity or low gravity should allow him limited powers. Of course, the Speed Force exists to hand wave all laws of physics that would make speedsters impossible.

Sara is no Picard, but she does see the team as mostly equals where she makes the final decision. Rip mostly knew how to get his orders from the Time Masters. Now he has to decide how much they can screw up history to complete the mission. I think Rip is the better Captain of the Waverider, but Sara is the leader of the Legends. She's Riker.

[bettername2come]

21 hours ago, TDT said:

Would love to hear Mick do the opening commentary for other DC shows.."So this guy,Barry Allen claims to be 'The Fastest Man Alive.."

"But I've shot him. How fast can he be?"

"That's Supergirl. She kicks everyone's ass while wearing a skirt. It's pretty hot."

"So this guy used to be a badass killer, till he decided to go legit. Still wears a Robin Hood getup for some reason."

I'm confused by Thawne remembering working with Caitlin and Cisco. I thought this was the version that never did that because he wasn't stranded in 2000 to turn into Wells. But then, he's a time remnant and my head hurts and I give up way too quickly on figuring this out.

Ray was MVP for me this episode. I really enjoyed his time with Thawne. Then again, I love it any time someone calls Eobard Thawne out.

[BkWurm1]

27 minutes ago, bettername2come said:

"But I've shot him. How fast can he be?"

"That's Supergirl. She kicks everyone's ass while wearing a skirt. It's pretty hot."

"So this guy used to be a badass killer, till he decided to go legit. Still wears a Robin Hood getup for some reason."

Thank you for this.  I heard his gruff growly rasp in every word I read.  

[RobertDeSneero]

On 3/14/2017 at 9:27 PM, ketose said:

38 degrees? Of what? There's 3 dimensions, Thawne.

It's the angle of re-entry relative to the atmosphere.  While the atmosphere is roughly spherical, just like the earth, you can treat it as a flat plane over a small area.  The ship has to enter at a certain angle to avoid things like burning up on re-entry or bouncing off the atmosphere.

[BkWurm1]

2 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

It's the angle of re-entry relative to the atmosphere.  While the atmosphere is roughly spherical, just like the earth, you can treat it as a flat plane over a small area.  The ship has to enter at a certain angle to avoid things like burning up on re-entry or bouncing off the atmosphere.

I thought that the angle of entry would remain a constant for anything that needs to get in rather than bounce off or burn up.  Isn't there a specific range that should be common knowledge for anyone like Ray or Stein without having to do a bunch of math?  Oh well, it's not a good episode of LoT without at least one plot hole.  

[tennisgurl]

I swear, I want Mick to do a voice over describing every show on TV. It would be amazing.

I keep finding new, funny things about Martin breaking out into song in the middle of NASA. We had Mick providing bass, Rip and Sara looking at each other in confusion, Martins awkward dance moves, Jax and Ray both stopping in the middle of their respective fight and mission to be like "what the fuck?", the young NASA guy smiling and dancing a little, it was just hilarious. Its classic LoT.

I really loved this episode, a great mixture of action, humor, and drama. This show really is great at giving everyone something to do every episode. While most of the other Arrorverse shows have a few characters they clearly don't need or know what to do with (pours a glass out for James Olson), everyone here has a point, and some kind of character arc. Even Nate, who I have always found to be the most pointless main character, had a nice story this week, even if it required him to learn the same damn lesson that's been learned a million times in this franchise. Messing with history is bad yall. Screw the gun control PSA from Arrow a few weeks ago, we need a PSA and going back in time to mess with the past, and the possible dangers. Barry can be its spokesman!

Really great scenes between Thawn and Ray, I liked them kind of bonding over science, although Ray never forgot that Thawn is a bad guy, no matter what he says. "I'm really a good guy! "Most good guys don't murder innocent people to screw with their kids, or brainwash my friends and make them try to kill us dude". Also, maybe Thawn is already hanging out with Snart, he's picked up his habit of calling him Raymond. He also seemed to be a bit dialed down from when they make him super manic in his nerdiness. Don't get me wrong, I always love Ray, but its nice to see him being more serious and professional during an important mission, but still with his Ray-ness in tact.

I agree that Sara was the better captain, but its not like Rip is useless. As others have said, Rip tended to keep things close to the chest, and just made decisions and expected people to do what he said, which doesn't really work with our Rag Tag Bunch of Misfits, which I understand. he has been with the Time Masters for most of his life, and when he wasn't with them, it was just him and Gideon, so he's really not used to trusting a team, or delegating to other people. He would be a lot better at being Sara's second in command, with his knowledge of time and space, and he is quick to offer differing opinions. He has been through a lot lately, I just think he needs to get back to himself.

I swear, more people need to watch! Come back everyone! Its really good now!

[zannej]

17 hours ago, bettername2come said:

"But I've shot him. How fast can he be?"

"That's Supergirl. She kicks everyone's ass while wearing a skirt. It's pretty hot."

"So this guy used to be a badass killer, till he decided to go legit. Still wears a Robin Hood getup for some reason."

I'm confused by Thawne remembering working with Caitlin and Cisco. I thought this was the version that never did that because he wasn't stranded in 2000 to turn into Wells. But then, he's a time remnant and my head hurts and I give up way too quickly on figuring this out.

Ray was MVP for me this episode. I really enjoyed his time with Thawne. Then again, I love it any time someone calls Eobard Thawne out.

Mick's take on the other shows would be absolutely HILARIOUS! I would love it if they did it as a bonus feature.

Matt Letscher apparently did something on "periscope" (not sure what that is) to explain Thawne's existence. Someone said there was a link but I couldn't find it. But he did confirm that this *is* the time remnant of the Thawne who spent 15 years stranded in the past living as Wells. Which makes me wonder why he seems less experienced/knowledgeable in some ways. Unless maybe he just doesn't care about mucking up time because he's already a time remnant & if he gets the spear he can set things right. Interesting that he mentioned Cisco and Caitlin but not Barry. And with Flashpoint having changed things, maybe this version of Eobard never came to care about Barry as much? Also, how could he have gone through those 15 years while probably knowing that Eddie was going to kill himself? You just know Bigmouth Barry probably would have told him that.

I think I'm going to accept that Thawne didn't have his powers while in zero gravity (for whatever reason) but that he could use them while on the moon and on the Waverider but he was trying to avoid attracting zombie zoom. Plus, he promised to "play nice" until they got to Earth and he kept his word.

Also, I found it funny how he seemed to respect Ray after awhile and tried to gain his trust, but as soon as he got on the Waverider he started calling the team "morons".

[Argenta]

Another really fun and enjoyable episode!

Things I liked:

• The setting of the Apollo 13 mission. It's a real piece of history but still well within living memory.
• It was nice to see Ray get a chance to be a bit more thoughtful and serious; Brandon does well in such scenes.
• Commander Steele's sacrifice was sad but perfectly in keeping with the kind of character he is. A very stoical sort of man for whom the mission comes first. 
• Mick's intro - although given this is the second time he's done it, it would have been even better if they'd done a fresh one along the lines of "What the hell? I've done this once. Screw this, I'm going to have a beer."
• Amaya comforting Nate - nice to see them interact with real emotion and not just badly-timed sexing.
• Martin bursting into song with slightly bemused support from Mick - it was kind of awkward but it still amused me.
• Ray's reference to Matt Damon while stranded on the lunar surface - this made me grin
• Ray's earnest video diary being abruptly derailed by Eobard interrupting him.

I loved Eobard in this episode; his usual wicked charm was on display alongside some real humanity and vulnerability. I thoroughly enjoyed his interactions with Ray, especially the parts where they just got to talk like human beings without enmity. While I agree it doesn't, on the surface of things, make sense that he remembers posing as Wells since it shouldn't have happened for this version of him, I'm pleased that he does nonetheless. I always said I wanted to see Matt get the chance to play Eobard with the memories of his time at S.T.A.R. Labs. It gives the character an added dimension to have that lingering fondness for Caitlin and Cisco, and hearing him admit that he missed that and still felt a need for human connection, with his peers at least, was quite moving. 

Nice to see Matt's acting getting so many props here, since I confess I started watching LoT because he was in it. Although I've also become fond of some of the Legends, and wanting to know more about Malcolm and Damien's backgrounds led to me watching Arrow, which I like a lot more than I thought I would...so all to the good :)

[ketose]

14 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I thought that the angle of entry would remain a constant for anything that needs to get in rather than bounce off or burn up.  Isn't there a specific range that should be common knowledge for anyone like Ray or Stein without having to do a bunch of math?  Oh well, it's not a good episode of LoT without at least one plot hole.  

The Apollo missions had a reentry angle of 6.5 degrees, with about a 1 degree margin of error. Even Apollo 13 managed to stay within 0.5 degrees. The angle has to do with using the atmosphere to slow descent but not hitting it so hard the friction burns up the ship. On Apollo, the g forces could kill them, but the Waverider might have those Trekkie "inertial dampeners" to reduce that possibility. Presumably, Thawne would have to know the geometry of the Waverider to even make that calculation.

[futurechemist]

"Real" Apollo 13: explosion damages the ship en route to the moon.  Astronauts survive in lunar module and slingshot around moon to return to Earth.

"Revised" Apollo 13: speedster impersonates 1 astronaut, knocks out other 2 astronauts.  Hijacks lunar module.  Lands on moon with superhero, later takes lunar module over to the Waverider.  Remaining astronauts presumably wake up at some point and head back to Earth.  Earth is now short 1 astronaut, at least until the real Swigert wakes up.  And Apollo 13 is now short 1 lunar module.

There's just so many things wrong there.  Are people just meant to assume that Swigert, jealous he wouldn't have been able to walk on the moon, decided to hijack the lunar module.  But something went wrong and instead of landing on the moon, he got shot off into space?

Why even deal with Apollo 13, when you work in a spaceship!  Just warp over to the moon and grab the flag.  Maybe shoot a missile or something at Apollo 13 on the way back in case Thawne "fixed" the oxygen tank.

Alternatively, if the Spear requires all 4 pieces to work, and the heroes have 1 piece, and it can't be destroyed, just hide that 1 piece really really well.  Like 5 billion years ago at the center of the Earth.  Or shoot it into space really fast so that it's left the solar system by now.

I also think the writers didn't know what to do with the JSA.  Every member was either killed quickly, or made a noble sacrifice, or decided to just abandon their time period.  

It was nice to see a villain get fleshed out.

[Argenta]

1 hour ago, futurechemist said:

There's just so many things wrong there.  Are people just meant to assume that Swigert, jealous he wouldn't have been able to walk on the moon, decided to hijack the lunar module.  But something went wrong and instead of landing on the moon, he got shot off into space?

I like that explanation. It would have been a lot of fun to witness the utter confusion back at NASA in the aftermath, wouldn't it? 

[tessathereaper]

On 3/15/2017 at 3:19 AM, Proteus said:

Yeah. The Rip/Sara stuff was too heavy handed.

I would have preferred if they didn't anvil it the way they did.  It was heavy handed and I feel like Rip deserved a bit better than that.  Sure Sara should be captain but no need to act like Rip suddenly didn't have a brain.  He was pretty good at making quick decisions last season when necessary.

[Sakura12]

I don't think they showed anything to make Rip look inept. He was coming up with ideas and working out the problems, he was just doing it in his usual loner style. Which is not how a team should operate. Rip was acting exactly like he did last season. Sara including her team in some of the decisions and listening to them is what she's been doing all season. So I didn't see anything different.

I think Rip learning how to be a team player under Sara's leadership would be a good thing for him. 

[RobertDeSneero]

Rip is promoted to admiral.  He picks the missions and is in charge of making the timeline great again.  Sarah is captain, in charge of implementing the missions.

[squidprincess]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

I don't think they showed anything to make Rip look inept. He was coming up with ideas and working out the problems, he was just doing it in his usual loner style. Which is not how a team should operate. Rip was acting exactly like he did last season. Sara including her team in some of the decisions and listening to them is what she's been doing all season. So I didn't see anything different.

I think Rip learning how to be a team player under Sara's leadership would be a good thing for him. 

I agree with this.  Rip actually DID come up with a means to track Heywood.  The team just beat him to it.  And Rip had an idea at the same time that Sara said to infiltrate NASA.  He just didn't spit it out fast enough.  And his attempt to make contact with Heywood would have been fine if Heywood hadn't decided to blame Rip for his own decision and deck him instead.

I think the slightly heavy handed execution wasn't so much about making Rip look inept as to  show how much he still needs to recover from his experience.  But in the process, we see him asking Sara about her decisions (I didn't think his "why" was a challenge, I thought he genuinely wanted to know) and presumably learning from what he sees.

[ketose]

I'd like to know what Rip's plan to track Heywood was. If Rip could find him before 1970, they should have gone with that. Apollo was a cluster.

I know I should lower my expectations, but Legends has a similar problem with NBC's Timeless. They always want to go back to big historical events and completely change them, then ignore the consequences unless it is serves a story. An entire missing astronaut is apparently less important than George Lucas not making a movie.

[Chyromaniac]

I'd like to know what it is about Stein that when he hears, "create a distraction," his instinct is to sing the Banana Boat Song.  Does he just really like Beetlejuice?

[KirkB]

4 hours ago, ketose said:

I'd like to know what Rip's plan to track Heywood was. If Rip could find him before 1970, they should have gone with that. Apollo was a cluster.

It was, but they needed to get into Apollo because they had figured out the piece of the Spear was on the moon. Just finding Heywood wouldn't have done them any good. Although, come to think of it, an easier way (and less of an interesting episode, admittedly) would probably have been to go back to just after the first Americans on the moon left, when I presume the flag and thus the Spear piece were placed, and pick it up.

1 hour ago, Chyromaniac said:

I'd like to know what it is about Stein that when he hears, "create a distraction," his instinct is to sing the Banana Boat Song.  Does he just really like Beetlejuice?

It seems like Stein just did the first thing that popped into his head. Breaking out into song would certainly get attention, even if it does seems like the guy in charge was so stunned he let it go on way too long. Now, as to why Stein chose THAT song....????

Edited March 17, 2017 by KirkB

[Miss Dee]

*puts on glasses*

Evidently he is suffering from a subconscious realization that his desire to remain on the Waverider, which is born out of the higher mode thinking of self-actualization, is becoming sublimated to the more elemental desire to be with his wife and daughter... the "daylight come", if you will... and it is manifesting itself into a sudden primal urge of "me wanna go home", which at this time is only able to intrude upon his conscious mind in the form of half-forgotten song lyrics. Thus that is the first song that springs to mind when his lips open.

*takes off glasses*

[ElleMo]

4 hours ago, Chyromaniac said:

I'd like to know what it is about Stein that when he hears, "create a distraction," his instinct is to sing the Banana Boat Song.  Does he just really like Beetlejuice?

 

I peg him more as a Harry Belefonte fan, since it was his big hit back in the day. 

 

Or maybe he's fan of the Muppets   

Edited March 17, 2017 by ElleMo

[jhlipton]

On 3/15/2017 at 11:50 AM, ketose said:

She could also faint every time the computer goes down, like in Andromeda. Since it looks like Amaya's leaving this season, Gideon would make an interesting replacement.

I dislike everything about this post (sorry!) A fainting woman is so 1960s; surely we've come farther than that. 
And trading one of the very few black female leads for yet another white woman is repulsive to me.
I'm sure you didn't see either of those things, but I just can't with that (as the kids say).

On 3/15/2017 at 5:51 PM, squidprincess said:

I think the issue, in both cases, was where exactly was he going to go from there?  Presumably, he'd be able to leave the lander to the moon, but he doesn't have oxygen or a space suit.  He can't run from the moon to Earth, so he still needs a way home.  Likewise, he could escape the Waverider and end up in a vacuum. 

Fine with me.  I felt that Ray should never have gotten in the LEM to begin with -- Disengage from the Command Module and let Thawne find his own way home.
I know the heroes can't kill the villains (no matter how many people the villains kill), but how fast could Thawne run without his kneecaps?

On 3/15/2017 at 6:28 PM, BkWurm1 said:

I do think the spear will be used to keep Amaya.  I'm sure they want to keep her.  I want to keep her as well.  We need to find out more about how the spear works.  Could it keep her "destiny" (the modern day Vixen) intact while also freeing her to not have to live through it?

I like this idea.

I hate that Thawne is "sympathetic".   Bull-pucky.  How many people has he killed or tried to kill; how many people has he tortured?  Like I said above, if they're too wishy-washy to kill him (and you really think Mick would hesitate in a second?  The minute Thawne landed in the brig, his neck should have had an intimate encounter with Mick's knife), at least eliminate the super-speedster.  I know, I know, PLOT!!!!!!

[ketose]

30 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

I dislike everything about this post (sorry!) A fainting woman is so 1960s; surely we've come farther than that. 
And trading one of the very few black female leads for yet another white woman is repulsive to me.
I'm sure you didn't see either of those things, but I just can't with that (as the kids say).

Fine with me.  I felt that Ray should never have gotten in the LEM to begin with -- Disengage from the Command Module and let Thawne find his own way home.
I know the heroes can't kill the villains (no matter how many people the villains kill), but how fast could Thawne run without his kneecaps?

...

I hate that Thawne is "sympathetic".   Bull-pucky.  How many people has he killed or tried to kill; how many people has he tortured?  Like I said above, if they're too wishy-washy to kill him (and you really think Mick would hesitate in a second?  The minute Thawne landed in the brig, his neck should have had an intimate encounter with Mick's knife), at least eliminate the super-speedster.  I know, I know, PLOT!!!!!!

Actually, I was making fun of the stuff they did on Andromeda with Rommie, like disconnecting / fainting. I think she was also nude on the bridge in one episode. I also suspected that the issue of trading a white android / woman for a black female character would come up when I mentioned Amaya. Personally, there are other characters I would trade before Amaya.

I agree with your points about Thawne. He murdered the Wellses and a whole lot of other people. He's delusional about torturing Barry and it makes me unsympathetic to him.

[Lokiberry]

Quote

I dislike everything about this post (sorry!) A fainting woman is so 1960s; surely we've come farther than that. 
And trading one of the very few black female leads for yet another white woman is repulsive to me.
I'm sure you didn't see either of those things, but I just can't with that (as the kids say).

I want android Gideon to join the cast next season. They don't have to get rid of Amaya for it to happen, they can get rid of Nate. The season has finished filming already, and if it ends with Amaya leaving to fulfill her destiny, they can introduce another women of color and still get rid of Nate. Why can there only be two women on the Waverider at one time? Who made that rule?

Edited March 18, 2017 by Lokiberry
quoted the wrong person

[jhlipton]

19 hours ago, Lokiberry said:

if it ends with Amaya leaving to fulfill her destiny, they can introduce another women of color

They've already swapped one Woman of Color for another (and made a huge trade up!)  I just don't like the idea that WoC are interchangeable parts.  

ERA:  Boo to Legends for not having any women, much less black women at Mission Control.  I guess none of the PTB saw Hidden Figures...

Edited March 18, 2017 by jhlipton

[tessathereaper]

On 3/17/2017 at 9:17 AM, KirkB said:

It was, but they needed to get into Apollo because they had figured out the piece of the Spear was on the moon. Just finding Heywood wouldn't have done them any good. Although, come to think of it, an easier way (and less of an interesting episode, admittedly) would probably have been to go back to just after the first Americans on the moon left, when I presume the flag and thus the Spear piece were placed, and pick it up.

It seems like Stein just did the first thing that popped into his head. Breaking out into song would certainly get attention, even if it does seems like the guy in charge was so stunned he let it go on way too long. Now, as to why Stein chose THAT song....????

Actually if they could have found Heywood before 1969, it wouldn't have been on the moon yet(that flag wasn't on the moon until after July 20th 1969)

[zannej]

Wait.. I thought the Lunar Module re-docked and connected back with the rest of the ship. Or was it docking on to the Waverider? It looked to me like it docked with the other ship though. But, that begs the question how they got from there to the Waverider if not attached to it. Ray would be fine in his suit, but Eobard would not. Eobard didn't even have shoes on in the LEM (at least when they showed the bts footage of how they did the fights). LOL.

[DeadZeus]

Something is driving me insane... Eobard says he has worked together with Cisco and Caitlyn.. But this makes no sense AFAIK. The Eobard that worked with them died/got erased from existence... This Eobard was running through time/speedforce when that happened. So that was prior to him meeting them... So how can THIS Eobard on the shuttle have worked with Cisco and Caitlyn... Just a mistake from the writers or am i missing something? Pretty sure the Eobard that was with Cisco and Caitlyn didn't time travel for over 20 year cuz he was stuck there, making a remnant of Eobard that has worked with Cisco/Caitlyn impossible IMO

[Argenta]

1 hour ago, DeadZeus said:

Something is driving me insane... Eobard says he has worked together with Cisco and Caitlyn.. But this makes no sense AFAIK. The Eobard that worked with them died/got erased from existence... This Eobard was running through time/speedforce when that happened. So that was prior to him meeting them... So how can THIS Eobard on the shuttle have worked with Cisco and Caitlyn... Just a mistake from the writers or am i missing something? Pretty sure the Eobard that was with Cisco and Caitlyn didn't time travel for over 20 year cuz he was stuck there, making a remnant of Eobard that has worked with Cisco/Caitlyn impossible IMO

A few of us are wrestling with this question in the 'Villains' thread, if you'd like to join us :)