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S02.E14: Moonshot


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MANPAIN! Not as bad as The Flash, but I feel bad for Nate. He's still a putz, but he didn't deserve to see his grandfather sacrifice himself. And that reminds me: Wouldn't it have helped if Firestorm was around to at least try to slow the ship? I know, there's a budget, but damn. All Jax did was get lucky with the lack of security. All Martin did was distract everybody. Awesomely. And Mick knew the words!

Man, Ray must have felt so snug on the moon. Did he build the suit to adjust for erections? Nice to see him bond with Eobard. Still not getting how he exists. I thought this was the asshole before he killed Dr. Wells and took his place, but he remembers the gang at STAR Labs. Also, this guy is from the 22nd century. I thought he'd hail from 500 years in the future. I'm okay with that.

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A really strong episode.

I hope Rip finds his place on the team now. A nice scene with Sara st the end.

Thawne and Ray working together was great.

Edited by Proteus
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I'm glad Sara's accomplishments as Captain were recognized. It's still Rip's ship but that doesn't mean he's a good fit to lead a team. Sara has their trust and respect and she trusts and respects their opinions. She's right when Rip didn't tell anyone about the time scatter he just sent them. He put Sara in probably the worst time for women in 1800's Salem. Choose better time periods next time, Rip. Not ones where they could've all died anyway. Sara's the Captain and Rip's the Time Master, that where his expertise is anyway. 

If Nate hadn't been making selfish decisions all season, I may have felt for him. But he's chosen himself so many times over the team or the mission, whether it's  more sex with Amaya or changing history to make his life better. He hasn't been shown to be very heroic at all. Mick's more of a hero then him. 

Of course Amaya finding out about and seeing Mari can make her do dumb things now too. I do think that means she's gone after this season. 

I really enjoyed the Ray and Eobard scene. He is a scientist and misses working with other scientists. They are letting us get to know the villains this season that's where they failed last season. 

Edited by Sakura12
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Preview of the musical episode of The Flash with Victor Garber singing Day-O

For some reason, Sara is supposedly a better captain even though Rip was the one who held his post and told Commander Steele how to blow the hatch.

Oh, and kids from the future wouldn't learn astrophysics unless they're biologically modifying them in the future.

38 degrees? Of what? There's 3 dimensions, Thawne.

How are they going to explain a crew member missing from the capsule and (dead?) back on earth? I guess Jim Lovell did a lot of lying in "Lost Moon."

Plus, Firestorm was conspicuously absent. The least they could have done is left one on the ship and one on earth.

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I'm glad it's a universally acknowledged truth that Sara's a better captain. I liked the scene with her and Rip at the end with Sara bringing things back full circle by calling Rip a legend. He's obviously still got a place with them. Sara might be better at leading and taking charge but it's still his time ship, and nobody knows it better than him. I did enjoy their parental type bickering though and Sara complaining Rip left her in a time period where she was declared a witch (though it didn't seem like she had an entirely terrible time there). 

Mick and Stein were fun together again. I'm glad Mick found another science guy to snark on since Nate stole his Haircut.

Nate was an idiot again. I didn't feel the slightest bit of sympathy for him (though I did feel bad for Capt Heywood). I just don't appreciate him dragging Amaya down with him. She was so much better when she was getting drunk with Mick or Ray's there to blunt some of Nate's dumber tendencies. 

Shallow observation, while I don't enjoy regular Rip as much as Hot Evil Rip I have to say that hair is absolutely working for Arthur Darvill. He was looking especially fine in that suit. 

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I loved this. I'm glad I watched this live instead of This is Us. There's just a good balance of action and humor. The opening narration was good as was Ray walking on the moon and Stein singing Day-O. I don't know what I enjoyed more, Mick singing along (plus the reaction shots of the other Legends) or them showing it again during the closing credits. This is quickly becoming my favorite Tuesday night show (besides The Middle). 

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I actually laughed out loud when Stein started singing Day-O. Because it was so ridiculous and random.

Rip knowing the ship better doesn't mean he's good at leading a team. That's the part he struggled with. Sara listens too and trusts her team and in they turn trust and respect her. All that scene showed me is they do need a Time Master on their team. 

Edited by Sakura12
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Held it together through the majority of Martin's "Day-O", but then I lost it for good when Mick began backing him up.  I never knew how much I wanted to hear Victor Garber sing, with Dominic Purcell providing the bass, until that very moment!  I bet those two were having a ball during that scene.

By them tackling and changing the Apollo 13 mission, it really made me wonder how that would effect things.  I mean, basically, in this universe, Jim Lovell and Fred Haise suddenly get knocked out, and when they wake up, Jack Sweigert just disappeared!  And would it still have been made into a film?!  If so, would it be a different type of film, like a mystery over Sweigert's disappearance?  And, more importantly, would Tom Hank, Bill Paxton, and Kevin Bacon still be playing these roles?!  I want answers, dammit!!

Glad they went ahead and addressed the Captain issue.  As much I enjoy Rip, I think Sara is the right call.  She certainly isn't perfect, but I think she really has done a solid and better job at keeping everyone together, making the tough decisions, and knowing how to approach issues and use everyone correctly.  And, more importantly, she commands respect in ways I don't think Rip every fully achieved.  Still, I do think Rip has a purpose.  I think he more then capable as Sara's first in command, and someone who is willing to challenge her and give advice.  I think they will make a good pair.

Stein and Jax pretending to be British was totally an excuse for Franz Drameh to use his normal speaking voice, right?  Wouldn't be opposed to them finding another excuse for Jax to pretend to be British again.

Ray fanboying over being on the moon was delightful, but I really enjoy his exchanges with Eobard.  Eobard really is becoming an awesome antagonist.  Matt Letscher is perfection in the role.

Figured Henry was going to be a goner somehow.  Probably the most I've been invested in Nate lately.  Still wish they would have Amaya do more then just play off of him.  Maybe her looking into what happen to her village will let her be front and center more.

Another fun episode.  This show has easily become the best of the DC shows this season.

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3 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I actually laughed out loud when Stein started singing Day-O. Because it was so ridiculous and random.

Rip knowing the ship better doesn't mean he's good at leading a team. That's the part he struggled with. Sara listens too and trusts her team and in turn trust and respect her. All that scene showed me is they do need a Time Master on their team. 

I love Sara as well. She's my fave. But Rip wasn't some horrible inept leader IMO.

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I don't think Rip was the worst leader ever. He just didn't know how to handle his team or get their respect. It probably didn't help that he started out by lying to them. We were told that Time Masters were taught to work alone not with a team. Rip has a lot of good qualities as a Time Master, just not as a leader. I also think Sara has a more calming presence and most of the time doesn't yell to get her way. She gives great motivational speeches as well. Sara's not a perfect leader by any means, but she kept the team together and even rescued him.  

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I must be the only one who didn't enjoy Martin bursting into song. I had to cover my eyes in second hand embarrassment.

I liked Henry, and am sorry he died, but he went out like a real hero. Nate otoh, was his usual dickish self: me me me me me me, and hey, let's spoil Amaya on her future too while we're at it. Was I supposed to feel sorry for him? Sorry, just couldn't manage it.

The "tension" between Rip and Sara got resolved pretty easily. I was expecting more after CL's interview about how she loved and hated him, and there's some things that she just couldn't forgive; but she's done that before. Last year, she talked about how Sara wasn't going to forgive Rip for not telling her about Laurel, and that never really showed up onscreen. I think her head canon doesn't quite line up with what the writers are doing.

Ray was awesome with his moon landing boner, and so was Thawne, with his Villains Telling Home Truths (tm). He was right, Ray said he built the suit to help people, but he could have used the technology to provide clean, affordable power. Climate change, Ray.

Jax's accent was adorable. I wish they would create a time aberration that would let him keep it.

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Rip wasn't a bad leader, but I do think Sara is better. To be fair for most of the first season he was basically a kindergarten teacher tasked with watching over the unruliest students in the school. They spent more time bickering and causing problems than they did fixing them. Rip, as Sakura12 said, was trained to be a Time Master, not a team leader, and he was easily frustrated and tended to lose his temper. Sara doesn't have to yell most of the time, just glare, because the others know she could kick all of their asses with ease if she needed to. But she's going to have to rely on Rip a lot since he knows more about Gideon, the Waverider, and of course time travel in general.

They almost made me feel bad for Nate. Not quite, because I still can't stand the character, but no one should have to watch their grandfather die like that.

Thawne as no right to be as much fun to watch as he is. It has to be Matt Letscher, he makes a psychopathic speedster hilarious and kind of scary at the same time.

Mick, though, doing the intro was seriously the best thing about the episode.

Edited by KirkB
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Loved this episode, I thought it was awesome.  The Apollo 13 mission and the action on the moon made for a great setting.  I enjoyed Ray and Thawne's no-gravity fight and laughed when he asked Ray what the hell he was doing with the video.  This was a great episode for Thawne, who truly seems to excel when he slows down.

I'm a fan of Rip but Sara is definitely the better captain.

Amaya was right to step in, at the very least to save Nate from being wiped from existence. 

Jax got to use his real accent.

Edited by benteen
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25 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

 

I don't think Rip was the worst leader ever. He just didn't know how to handle his team or get their respect. It probably didn't help that he started out by lying to them. We were told that Time Masters were taught to work alone not with a team.

This. He's not entirely awful but he's just not a people person. He knows his stuff when it comes to time things and the ship but he's got more than a few things to learn about getting people to follow him. I think Sara's leadership style of listening to them before choosing a course of action goes a long way to that. These people are not traditional 'team' people, there's a reason they don't do well with Rip's more authoritarian style. Of course it probably helps that Sara can kick all of their asses to get them into line if needed  ;)

Again that's not to say he doesn't have a place on the crew. I agree with thuganomics85,he would make a good second for Sara. Someone who can understand her position and back her up. I'll admit I'm also low-key starting to ship ten just a little after their last scene together. 

Edited by dippydee
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I loved how high-stakes this episode felt. I was on pins and needles from Ray getting trapped in the LEM to Thawne escaping without ripping the ship apart for the spear fragment. And the visuals were on point. That last moon shot before the commercial, when Ray realizes he's stranded was just gorgeous.

I really appreciated how Ray was written in this episode. For all his puppyness, he's got a bit of a dark side, huh? I think I'd like to see him break bad out of desperation.

"Haircut's on the moon?!" I know, Mick - between this and your complaint that you couldn't go on the Jurassic Park mission last episode, you really do just want to follow Ray around and protect him, don't you? He's the Weedon Scott to your White Fang.

That singing distraction was just...phenomenal. So glad I didn't spoil myself! I lost my breath laughing at that one. And British Jax! Love how these shows manage to find ways to let their British actors use their natural voice. The Good Fight did the same for Cush Jumbo. 

Mick was looking really fine in that black top and blue jeans at the episode start. I'm betting Dominic Purcell took one look at that 1970s getup and put his foot down that wardrobe had to make him look good at some point or he was going to make their lives miserable. :p

I'm probably never going to not resent Nate for his mucking up the Atomwave bromance, but I thought the loss of Commander Steele was very heartfelt and well done, and Zano did a good job with it. 

I'm glad Rip realized his place wasn't as captain anymore. I'm really looking forward to his realization that as a crewmember, with less responsibility comes great freedom of not-giving-a-shit.

SARA: Rip, the thingamajiggy got stuck in the whatchamacallit; if we don't get it out, the multiverse will explode! 

RIP: Not my problem anymore.

SARA: But Rip....

RIP: Have an issue? Here's a tissue. Mick! Let's go drinking!

MICK: Huh. You just got interesting. 

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I thought it was a great episode (and was trying to remember where I was on April 13, 1970).  My only nitpick was that there is more stuff around the Apollo 11 site than just the flag... the legs of the LEM were designed to stay behind and act as a launch pad, and in fact the ladder has a plaque commemorating the site.

Oh, and the revision date of the form for Mari's adoption papers was 2014.  I think she's older than that :) .

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I saw something on tumblr that was interesting: Ray was trapped in a cage with Snart at Vandal's house and bonded with him, he was stuck in a gulag with Mick and bonded with him, and now he's been trapped in a lunar module with Thawne and had a little heart to heart. Ray Palmer: Criminal Magnet. All the bad boys want to drink his milkshake. That sounds kind of dirty.

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As a Rip fan, I was pretty happy with the resolution.  That surprises me a bit, because I'd have figured I'd be more opposed to Sara being sole Captain, but this worked out pretty well.   I liked that he was trying to get used to it, as opposed to actively fighting her for leadership.

And really, this has a lot of really interesting story potential for Rip going forward.  :-)

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1 hour ago, Pepper the Cat said:

Wouldn't NASA be questioning why they sent a shuttle up with 3 astronauts but only 2 returned? 

Wouldn't the 2 returning astronauts be wondering what happened to that third guy? 

Not to mention wondering why he'd stabbed them in the necks with something before they woke up.

They cut off Mick's intro. The best part, too "Who writes this crap, anyway?" :(

Loved how they really dug the knife home with Rip realizing the team had become better without him. But seriously, he can't think of a way in which he might fit in? That last bit of dialogue between him and Sara was great- kudos to the writer who came up with that bit:

"You in here drinking alone?" 

"Only as metaphor." 

(Hee)

"Feeling sorry for yourself?"

"Oh, no, I've surely got more than one way of feeling sorry for myself."

(Ha!)

Best part of the episode, though, by far, was the unlikely frenemy pairing of Ray and Thawne. I've said it before, but when Matt Letscher first showed up in season 1 Flash as the real face of Thawne, I wasn't impressed. Then, when they killed off Tom Cavanagh's Thawne I was disappointed. But Letscher's brief cameos in season 2 Flash were pretty good, and his turn as the main villain of the Legion of Doom on Legends is brilliant. The best element of this season, and that's saying a lot considering how much improved this season is over season 1. The two of them pairing, him waxing poetic about his collaborations with Cisco and Caitlin, his perhaps not-so-villainous viewpoint (at least in his eyes). That latter bit was something that Cavanagh's performance and the writing sort of hinted at, but never got to; they seem to be hinting at it again, and I really hope they get a chance to delve more into that side of the story. In any case, loved that scene.

If Letscher continues on as a time traveling opponent of the Legends, maybe they'll give us a scene that I think could be potentially amazing- Thawne and Thawne, Letscher and Cavanagh. That would be cool.

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3 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Not to mention wondering why he'd stabbed them in the necks with something before they woke up.

They cut off Mick's intro. The best part, too "Who writes this crap, anyway?" :(

Loved how they really dug the knife home with Rip realizing the team had become better without him. But seriously, he can't think of a way in which he might fit in? That last bit of dialogue between him and Sara was great- kudos to the writer who came up with that bit:

"You in here drinking alone?" 

"Only as metaphor." 

(Hee)

"Feeling sorry for yourself?"

"Oh, no, I've surely got more than one way of feeling sorry for myself."

(Ha!)

I missed Rip's sarcasm.  :-)

I think it's understandable that Rip is out of sorts in how exactly he fits in the group.   He's had a really rough couple of episodes and has come back to find out that everything's changed in his absence.   Eventually, I'm sure, he'll remember that he has a lot of skills, knowledge and expertise that the rest of the crew doesn't have, and adapt accordingly.  

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Regarding Rip and Sara, I just didn't like how Rip was treated this episode. But I'm hoping we'll now see him find a new role in the team.

One thing I didn't understand is how Thawne has memories of Cisco and Caitlin since the Thawne that took Harrison Wells' place was erased. My brother said his memories were probably rewritten like Barry's started to be when he was staying in Flashpoint. I'd guess that's it.

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Would love to hear Mick do the opening commentary for other DC shows.."So this guy,Barry Allen claims to be 'The Fastest Man Alive.."

So now it looks Rip has been demoted..would still love to see an appearance by Gideon in android form(Giddie..?) and like Rommie in Andromeda she could feel pain whenever the Waverider is damaged

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Rip did bring bring each one of them together as a team. He also taught them the basics of time travel and helped everyone know their place on the team. However, Sara was the one who picked up the pieces and put this team back together. Rip was a fine captain but Sara is great captain who made the team valued and wanted. She makes each team member feel like they have a say in the mission. She basically made them into the family. This to me is what makes her a better captain than Rip.

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3 hours ago, dippydee said:

Shallow observation, while I don't enjoy regular Rip as much as Hot Evil Rip I have to say that hair is absolutely working for Arthur Darvill. He was looking especially fine in that suit. 

*Waves to @dippydee in the shallow pool* 

I enjoyed this episode, but my cold black heart felt like it needed less of Nate's family/relationship drama and more of Mick's reactions to... everything. (Never thought I'd use "Dominic Purcell" and "adorable" in the same sentence before this show.)

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It was a little awkward, I thought. While I can fanwank that Rip is not quite as sure of himself after what happened to him, it felt a little like they deliberately dialed Sara's command attitude up to 11 and made Rip not as quick to make decisions just to make it obvious who the "better" captain was.  While I wanted Sara to stay Captain, I feel a little manipulated, and like Rip didn't get a "fair hearing" so to speak.  :(

Nate continues to make a great case for me wanting him off the ship. 

Lol at Stein's singing. :)  And Mick actually backing him up. 

Loved Franz being able to use his actual accent.  

I'm very curious to find out what Amaya does with the knowledge she has now.

And I enjoyed Ray's and Thawne's reluctant team up.   

So mostly a good episode, but...maybe not quite what I was hoping for on the Rip and Sara front.  But I guess we'll see how that plays out going forward.

And everyone else has already pointed out the glaring plot hole of the missing astronaut, so I won't replay that song.

Edited by Starfish35
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4 hours ago, ketose said:

Preview of the musical episode of The Flash with Victor Garber singing Day-O

For some reason, Sara is supposedly a better captain even though Rip was the one who held his post and told Commander Steele how to blow the hatch.

Oh, and kids from the future wouldn't learn astrophysics unless they're biologically modifying them in the future.

38 degrees? Of what? There's 3 dimensions, Thawne.

How are they going to explain a crew member missing from the capsule and (dead?) back on earth? I guess Jim Lovell did a lot of lying in "Lost Moon."

Plus, Firestorm was conspicuously absent. The least they could have done is left one on the ship and one on earth.

Why would kids from the future need to be biologically modified to learn astrophysics? They've actually found that kids can understand more than people think and that teaching more advanced math at younger ages actually helps them to understand math better when they get older. Part of the problem, though, is that many of the teachers for the lower grade levels don't understand the higher math themselves. Also, we have a system that teaches kids math one way and then when they are older they are taught to unlearn what they previously learned and replace it with something else-- all because they erroneously thought kids couldn't learn more advanced stuff at younger ages. Like, they thought children couldn't understand negative numbers and such. Granted, not all kids learn a the same pace and not all have the aptitude for learning more advanced things. But, by Thawne's time they have mnemonic devices to store and re-introduce memories. Perhaps they learned to do something similar with education.

Keep in mind that Eobard told Eddie that he was a genius even in his own time-- so perhaps he had an accelerated learning process as well. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if at that point in the future there would be some biological modifications-- perhaps to prevent genetic illnesses and severe disabilities. Hell, I personally fanwanked that by Eobard's time, they could grow organs and have a way to keep them healthy in some sort of container in labs and that it would extend to growing a uterus and having the parents contribute the sperm and eggs so they could grow the baby in a genetically engineered uterus-- eliminating the dangers of pregnancy and childbirth for the mothers.

Good point about the 38 degrees.

They never really established that Swigert was dead-- but it would be hard for them to explain what happened.

3 hours ago, Pepper the Cat said:

Wouldn't NASA be questioning why they sent a shuttle up with 3 astronauts but only 2 returned? 

Wouldn't the 2 returning astronauts be wondering what happened to that third guy? 

Loved the opening commentary!

Yeah. And if they remembered what happened before being stabbed, it would be even more of a mess. I wish they had addressed that.

3 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Held it together through the majority of Martin's "Day-O", but then I lost it for good when Mick began backing him up.  I never knew how much I wanted to hear Victor Garber sing, with Dominic Purcell providing the bass, until that very moment!  I bet those two were having a ball during that scene.

By them tackling and changing the Apollo 13 mission, it really made me wonder how that would effect things.  I mean, basically, in this universe, Jim Lovell and Fred Haise suddenly get knocked out, and when they wake up, Jack Sweigert just disappeared!  And would it still have been made into a film?!  If so, would it be a different type of film, like a mystery over Sweigert's disappearance?  And, more importantly, would Tom Hank, Bill Paxton, and Kevin Bacon still be playing these roles?!  I want answers, dammit!!

Glad they went ahead and addressed the Captain issue.  As much I enjoy Rip, I think Sara is the right call.  She certainly isn't perfect, but I think she really has done a solid and better job at keeping everyone together, making the tough decisions, and knowing how to approach issues and use everyone correctly.  And, more importantly, she commands respect in ways I don't think Rip every fully achieved.  Still, I do think Rip has a purpose.  I think he more then capable as Sara's first in command, and someone who is willing to challenge her and give advice.  I think they will make a good pair.

Stein and Jax pretending to be British was totally an excuse for Franz Drameh to use his normal speaking voice, right?  Wouldn't be opposed to them finding another excuse for Jax to pretend to be British again.

Ray fanboying over being on the moon was delightful, but I really enjoy his exchanges with Eobard.  Eobard really is becoming an awesome antagonist.  Matt Letscher is perfection in the role.

Figured Henry was going to be a goner somehow.  Probably the most I've been invested in Nate lately.  Still wish they would have Amaya do more then just play off of him.  Maybe her looking into what happen to her village will let her be front and center more.

Another fun episode.  This show has easily become the best of the DC shows this season.

I wonder why they chose Swigert of all people-- especially since he later became a politician. And I wonder if Eobard did something to prevent the oxygen thingy from exploding.

Loved hearing Franz use his real accent.

I think my favorite parts of the episode were the ones with Ray and Eobard together. IIRC, Tom Cavanagh's Eobard was impressed with Ray and his suit. So, it was a bit interesting that Eobard had a bit of an attitude with Ray at first, but then seemed to respect him more-- of course, that could just have been Eobard trying to butter him up.

Loved Ray doing what I assume was some approximation of the movie where Matt Damon's character was trapped (on Mars? I never saw the movie so I don't know) and then Eobard butts in with "What are you doing?" and that incredulous look on his face. And the "I am not dying on the moon!"

I was sad about Henry, but at least he didn't have to spend more years missing his family and having regrets.

I really want to see Amaya interact with someone other than Nate. I want them to give her something to do that does not involve her being a love interest.

2 hours ago, Lokiberry said:

I must be the only one who didn't enjoy Martin bursting into song. I had to cover my eyes in second hand embarrassment.

I liked Henry, and am sorry he died, but he went out like a real hero. Nate otoh, was his usual dickish self: me me me me me me, and hey, let's spoil Amaya on her future too while we're at it. Was I supposed to feel sorry for him? Sorry, just couldn't manage it.

The "tension" between Rip and Sara got resolved pretty easily. I was expecting more after CL's interview about how she loved and hated him, and there's some things that she just couldn't forgive; but she's done that before. Last year, she talked about how Sara wasn't going to forgive Rip for not telling her about Laurel, and that never really showed up onscreen. I think her head canon doesn't quite line up with what the writers are doing.

Ray was awesome with his moon landing boner, and so was Thawne, with his Villains Telling Home Truths (tm). He was right, Ray said he built the suit to help people, but he could have used the technology to provide clean, affordable power. Climate change, Ray.

Jax's accent was adorable. I wish they would create a time aberration that would let him keep it.

You weren't alone on the singing. Normally I find it entertaining when people sing (if they sing well), but it also depends on the circumstances. I'm not a fan of awkwardness.

Still not on board with Nate. He just comes off as a spoiled frat boy type to me so much of the time. That said, I actually felt I could relate to him a bit more in this episode in that he wanted his family members to be happy-- albeit his selfish motive was so he wouldn't have had a sucky childhood with a distant father. And telling Amaya to ask Ray about the fate of her village and family was a total dick move.

I loved the dynamic with Ray and Eobard. Especially since it went from Eobard saying how he didn't want to die on the moon with the "likes of" Raymond but then admitted that he was enjoying working with him. I do think that some of that was genuine but I also think he was buttering him up. I love how he sort of shot down the whole selfless hero thing. Eobard is very clever and I think he knows how Ray's mind works and how to manipulate him. I thought Matt and Brandon did a great job with some of the more subtle nuances where you can see that Ray actually seemed to feel sympathy for Eobard. The moment when Eobard let his guard down a little and showed that vulnerability and said "I want to live" was great. Because it was true, but it was also a clever way to humanize himself in Ray's eyes. And I think it worked out for him in the end because Ray could have shot him with the anti-speedster weapon and knocked him out. He managed to gain Ray's trust.

And I admit, I was sort of rooting for Eobard and hoping he would get the spear piece. I did think it was odd that Ray figured out that something was actually chasing Eobard rather than just thinking that Eobard needed to move to another time before time caught up to him in his current chronological location. I did like the mutual understanding that Ray was letting Eobard go so that he could live. Although, I admit that I would love to see what the Legends would do if they saw Hunter Zolomon in his zombie Zoom form. I think Stein would need to change his pants.

Also, I was a bit puzzled when Eobard mentioned Caitlin and Cisco. If that version of Eobard disintegrated (in front of Stein) and the version that was pulled out of the timeline was the one who had NOT spent all those years stuck-- then how does this Eobard have those memories? And does that mean he still has that much fondness for Cisco and the younger version of Barry? Is this the version who realized that he didn't consider himself and Barry to be enemies? Eobard said that after he got free (from being held captive by the Flash) he started being chased. Did he abridge the story to leave out being stuck in the past for 15 years? Or did those memories somehow come to him from another timeline? Or did the writers just screw up on continuity?

2 hours ago, KirkB said:

Rip wasn't a bad leader, but I do think Sara is better. To be fair for most of the first season he was basically a kindergarten teacher tasked with watching over the unruliest students in the school. They spent more time bickering and causing problems than they did fixing them. Rip, as Sakura12 said, was trained to be a Time Master, not a team leader, and he was easily frustrated and tended to lose his temper. Sara doesn't have to yell most of the time, just glare, because the others know she could kick all of their asses with ease if she needed to. But she's going to have to rely on Rip a lot since he knows more about Gideon, the Waverider, and of course time travel in general.

They almost made me feel bad for Nate. Not quite, because I still can't stand the character, but no one should have to watch their grandfather die like that.

Thawne as no right to be as much fun to watch as he is. It has to be Matt Letscher, he makes a psychopathic speedster hilarious and kind of scary at the same time.

Mick, though, doing the intro was seriously the best thing about the episode.

I really liked how Rip would be trying to think of a solution and Sara would say she'd already given an order or she jumped in and took action. In some ways I felt sorry for Rip-- especially after what he's been through-- but I do like Sara as captain and I'm glad Rip didn't fight her on it.

Yeah, as much as I don't care for Nate, the bit with his grandfather dying was so sad- and I thought Nick did a good job with the emotions there. But I thought about what he said to Amaya and lost sympathy for him.

I love Letcher's Thawne. I loved Cavanagh's Thawne too and it took a bit for Letscher to grow on me, but he totally owns the role now. He has a vulnerability and isn't a cartoon style villain who is evil just to be evil. His mission is to change reality so he's not being hunted (and probably to restore his family line). Since his family was wiped from existence he no longer has family, a home, friends, or co-workers who know him. People he formed relationships with wouldn't know who he was and there would be no record of him so he wouldn't be able to resume his job as a professor. I wonder why this show hasn't mentioned that he was a professor.

I'm still scratching my head at the whole speedforce powers go away in zero gravity. That makes no sense whatsoever.

When Eobard said that puns were the lowest form of humor, I kept wishing that Mick had been there to belch or fart or something and someone could point out that *that* was the lowest form of humor.

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Nate and his grandfather made me tear up I felt so sorry for him. I think Sara makes a better Captain because she takes input from the others before making a final decision. I also don't think it would be a good idea to give the ship back to Rip after he abandoned them in the beginning of the season. I loved Thawne pointing out that Ray isn't always a Boy Scout

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42 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

It was a little awkward, I thought. While I can fanwank that Rip is not quite as sure of himself after what happened to him, it felt a little like they deliberately dialed Sara's command attitude up to 11 and made Rip not as quick to make decisions just to make it obvious who the "better" captain was.  While I wanted Sara to stay Captain, I feel a little manipulated, and like Rip didn't get a "fair hearing" so to speak.  :(

 

Yeah. The Rip/Sara stuff was too heavy handed.

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I think for one, I didn't expect Sara to automatically assume that she was still in charge.  And it threw me that there was never even really a discussion about it.  Everyone including Sara assumed she was still in charge.  And they made a blatant point of her always being five steps ahead of Rip's faltering attempts to lead.  The only real conflict was Rip coming to terms with it.  And I guess that's not quite how I expected them to approach it.   I mean, I was not a fan of the co-captain idea, but...yeah, heavy-handed is a good way to put it.  Normally I would be all for Sara being badass and in charge, but it felt overplayed at Rip's expense.  And it just made me a little uncomfortable.

Edited by Starfish35
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The same. I didn't like how Sara came off this episode and that usually never happens to me. :/ The way Rip kept being dismissed by her and everyone was very odd and badly written.

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There's little to no friction in zero gravity, maybe that's the reason for speedforce to stop working. Then again, the time wraith should not be able to catch Thawne in space :)

I felt sorry for Rip, I too felt the whole situation was overplayed. But it trully got to me that Rip was not protesting... until Sara endangered Gideon. And it's true, he himself did place Gideon in front of a nuke but now that he saw her as a human, he's no longer that eager. He even used the term "human shield", if I remember correctly.

Still, I'm glad everything sort of returned to normal by the end.

(I also want Nate gone now. Can he go now? Thank you.)

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1 hour ago, Starfish35 said:

I think for one, I didn't expect Sara to automatically assume that she was still in charge.  And it threw me that there was never even really a discussion about it.  Everyone including Sara assumed she was still in charge.  And they made a blatant point of her always being five steps ahead of Rip's faltering attempts to lead.  The only real conflict was Rip coming to terms with it.  And I guess that's not quite how I expected them to approach it.   I mean, I was not a fan of the co-captain idea, but...yeah, heavy-handed is a good way to put it.  Normally I would be all for Sara being badass and in charge, but it felt overplayed at Rip's expense.  And it just made me a little uncomfortable.

I'd actually figured there was an off screen discussion in Land of the Lost, because of the way that Martin quickly corrected himself from "Captain" to "Mister Hunter" in that episode.

Martin isn't a cruel man, and he actually openly liked and respected Rip.  He can sometimes be insensitive, but not enough that he wouldn't realize how that kind of overt demotion might feel like a slap in the face to someone who'd already been through as much as Rip had.  

Sara also had referred to Rip as Captain repeatedly in his mind.  And she smiled when they both responded to Gideon.  He's the one who backed off.

My guess is that at some point after waking up, but before the bridge scene, Rip outright said "I can't do this".   It would fit with this episode, since Rip only challenged her the once, and he didn't remotely try to pull rank even then.

Edited by squidprincess
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18 hours ago, Lokiberry said:

I must be the only one who didn't enjoy Martin bursting into song. I had to cover my eyes in second hand embarrassment.

I liked Henry, and am sorry he died, but he went out like a real hero. Nate otoh, was his usual dickish self: me me me me me me, and hey, let's spoil Amaya on her future too while we're at it. Was I supposed to feel sorry for him? Sorry, just couldn't manage it.

[snip]

Jax's accent was adorable. I wish they would create a time aberration that would let him keep it.

Part of my pleasure over Stein singing was in how painfully awkward it was.  Lol.  

Henry's death was moving enough that I felt for Nate even while I still think he's an asshat.  And dumb to think totally changing his father's personality wouldn't result in changing his own personal history.  But at least he sold his emotions even if I thought he was being stupid and selfish and shortsighted.    

14 hours ago, kathyk24 said:

 I loved Thawne pointing out that Ray isn't always a Boy Scout

That's the part of Ray that didn't work at first because they on Arrow kept pretending he was just a good guy but he was acting like a controlling jerk.  On LoT they acknowledged that wanting to be a hero at all costs wasn't that heroic and I really like that they haven't totally forgotten that he has his own selfish side still even if he's come a long way.  

13 hours ago, Proteus said:

The same. I didn't like how Sara came off this episode and that usually never happens to me. :/ The way Rip kept being dismissed by her and everyone was very odd and badly written.

To me it didn't play so much as Rip being dismissed, just that he was out of step.  He'd be off alone, working the problem while the team gathered, put their heads together and had already solved it.  Plus there were a couple times when he was needlessly complicating the matter, like with getting to Nate's grandfather.  Sara was like, it's simple, we just infiltrate NASA while Rip is still trying IMO to follow the Time Master rules of not disturbing anything.

Rip was right to call out Sara's tactic to use the ship as a shield since it almost got them all killed but maybe he could have picked a more helpful way, like working with Gideon to strengthen their shield instead of trying to change tactics mid stream (which would have cost Apollo 13 their lives.)  

Still, I think what we saw was just what Rip said, him struggling to find his place.  He may not yet have firmly found his groove but I loved that the show and Sara made it clear that it's ok for him not yet to have found it.  It really was a great ending that makes me really hopeful about keeping AD on the show.  (knock on wood)

I really appreciate LoT this year.  I want to shout to everyone how great this silly show is and beg everyone to give it another shot.  This year is what it should have been right from the start.    

Edited by BkWurm1
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29 minutes ago, squidprincess said:

I'd actually figured there was an off screen discussion in Land of the Lost, because of the way that Martin quickly corrected himself from "Captain" to "Mister Hunter" in that episode.

Martin isn't a cruel man, and he actually openly liked and respected Rip.  He can sometimes be insensitive, but not enough that he wouldn't realize how that kind of overt demotion might feel like a slap in the face to someone who'd already been through as much as Rip had.  

Sara also had referred to Rip as Captain repeatedly in his mind.  And she smiled when they both responded to Gideon.  He's the one who backed off.

My guess is that at some point after waking up, but before the bridge scene, Rip outright said "I can't do this".   It would fit with this episode, since Rip only challenged her the once, and he didn't remotely try to pull rank even then.

I mean, that explanation works, but...that's the kind of stuff I like to actually see on screen, not have to fill in in my head.  Your mileage may vary.

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3 hours ago, kathyk24 said:

Nate and his grandfather made me tear up I felt so sorry for him. I think Sara makes a better Captain because she takes input from the others before making a final decision. I also don't think it would be a good idea to give the ship back to Rip after he abandoned them in the beginning of the season. I loved Thawne pointing out that Ray isn't always a Boy Scout

Rip didn't abandon anybody. He scattered them to protect them from the nuclear blast. He took the most dangerous path himself; one which could easily resulted in his death. It did cause his memories to be damaged, which in turn allowed the Legion to capture, torture and violate him. I'm also unclear if he specifically chose the Legends' destination, or if Gideon just randomly dropped them someplace.

I think Rip was treated disrespectfully by the writers here. I don't mind that Sara is the captain, but there needed to be a conversation where she talked about what he wanted to do and what was best for crew, instead of just bulldozing over him. Come to think of it, both characters were treated disrespectfully by the writers.

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I also think the team has been functioning without him for awhile, they were just doing what they normally do. I didn't see Sara acting any different, Rip just wasn't included because they aren't used to him being there anymore. Even Gideon was referring to Sara as Captain. So it looked like something was decided off screen. 

It could also be the team isn't a 100 percent ready to trust Rip. They know he was brainwashed and understand, but it still can't be easy to forget everything he did. It also didn't help when he went off his own to figure out the problem, while Sara and the team were together working out the problem. If he wants to be involved with the team he has to you know involve them. 

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Gideon also still called Rip Captain at the end of Land of the Lost (after Sara left).  It would be interesting to know what she thinks about everything.

I agree that I don't think the crew was intentionally excluding Rip.  They've just gotten used to his absence.  They are also a lot more competent now.  So, Rip needs to get used to the idea that he doesn't have to go off and research or plan alone.  They just need to readjust to each other.

Edited by squidprincess
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I'm not really objecting to anything or anyone's actions (including Sara) from an in-show perspective.  My issues are from an out-of-show perspective, in the writing choices.  I feel like we should have seen a conversation somewhere about who was going to be in command.  If it was agreed beforehand that Sara was staying in command, we should have seen that.  It would have given the right perspective to the rest of the episode. I also feel like there should have been some sort of follow up to that blow up between Sara and Rip about him scattering them through time.  That was a setup for a deeper conversation between the two of them that never happened.  It was never addressed in that conversation at the end.    

But basically I think it just comes down to what I said in my first post.  I don't like feeling like I'm being manipulated, even when I was already on board with the particular agenda being promoted (Sara as Captain).   And I feel like some important scenes/character moments were skipped over, that would have made things flow better.   But...well.  It is what it is.  We'll see where we go from here.

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4 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

He may not yet have firmly found his groove but I loved that the show and Sara made it clear that it's ok for him not yet to have found it.  It really was a great ending that makes me really hopeful about keeping AD on the show.  (knock on wood)

Interestingly enough I've seen different reactions about this.  One person I know of is convinced after watching this episode that this is setting up for Rip leaving the show at the end of the season.  Personally.....I'm not convinced either way, but I will admit to being a bit more uneasy about AD's future status on the show than I was prior to watching the episode.   But I hope you're right and that AD is staying.  

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I would like to see Sara and Rip have a conversation about every thing, the time scatter issue, him killing her, who's in charge now. The scene at the end was nice, they just have a lot more to talk about. 

I think they wanted Rip to be lost like the team was when he recruited them. So he can walk in their shoes and learn how to be a part of a team. That way they'd all be on the same level moving forward. 

Edited by Sakura12
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28 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I would like to see Sara and Rip have a conversation about every thing, the time scatter issue, him killing her, who's in charge now. The scene at the end was nice, they just have a lot more to talk about. 

That's probably going to happen only in fan fiction land...

...and end up with smut.

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This probably doesn't mean much because I've believed Darvill was staying all along.  This episode made me more convinced though.  There are so many directions his story can take moving forward.  I have a very hard time believing that they'd set up something like this, which seems like a kind of character arc that would easily continue into season 3 if they meant to get rid of him.

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Good episode though Nate kind of annoyed me in parts, especially when he told Amaya about her future or gave her hints towards it.

I did like his scenes with Henry and Hank though even if the former's sacrifice was a bit telegraphed though.

The temporary alliance with Ray and Eobard was the highlight of the episode. I did like the pair of them figuring each other's vulnerabilities out too.

Sara/Rip captain dynamic thing had to be addressed and I think they did a good job with that here. Rip will find his place again on the show no doubt.

Stein's singing though was hysterical, 8/10
 

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8 hours ago, zannej said:

Cavanagh's Thawne too and it took a bit for Letscher to grow on me, but he totally owns the role now. He has a vulnerability and isn't a cartoon style villain who is evil just to be evil. His mission is to change reality so he's not being hunted (and probably to restore his family line). Since his family was wiped from existence he no longer has family, a home, friends, or co-workers who know him. People he formed relationships with wouldn't know who he was and there would be no record of him so he wouldn't be able to resume his job as a professor. I wonder why this show hasn't mentioned that he was a professor.

I'm still scratching my head at the whole speedforce powers go away in zero gravity. That makes no sense whatsoever.

The only time I've found Thawne cartoony is in some of the scenes where he is playing against the other two members of the Legion of Doom. Suffice to say, I think it is more a problem with the cartooniness of those two characters (especially Darkh) that is the problem.

I can understand him not being able to use superspeed much in zero-g in the sense that he couldn't find his footing to run, but yeah- he should still have been able to use other aspects of his powers such as his Lethal Hand technique. So that was kind of weird.

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10 hours ago, TDT said:

Would love to hear Mick do the opening commentary for other DC shows.."So this guy,Barry Allen claims to be 'The Fastest Man Alive.."

So now it looks Rip has been demoted..would still love to see an appearance by Gideon in android form(Giddie..?) and like Rommie in Andromeda she could feel pain whenever the Waverider is damaged

She could also faint every time the computer goes down, like in Andromeda. Since it looks like Amaya's leaving this season, Gideon would make an interesting replacement. Plus, she could have Android powers without the expensive CGI or costuming of the Atom suit or Steel.

Could someone tell me where Jax used an accent? I checked my recording quick and couldn't find it.

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43 minutes ago, ketose said:

Could someone tell me where Jax used an accent? I checked my recording quick and couldn't find it.

It's when Martin and Jax first go to Mission Control, Martin tells them that they are British observers in a fake accent, and Franz gets to use his real one. It's only like one line.

Quote

She could also faint every time the computer goes down, like in Andromeda. Since it looks like Amaya's leaving this season, Gideon would make an interesting replacement. Plus, she could have Android powers without the expensive CGI or costuming of the Atom

If Amaya is leaving, I agree they ought to consider having Amy Pemberton play a live action version of Gideon. She got a very positive reception, and her character is very different than any of the others. Of course, they could just get rid of Nate, keep Amaya, and have three women on the show. Anarchy!

Edited by Lokiberry
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