S03.E16: Into the Speed Force

[Princess Lucky]

I have no words about Westallen. No. Words. The writers have done this ship so wrong. And they've done Jay, wrong, too.

Jesse punching HR? Thanks girl, you did us a solid.

I do agree that HR's contributions seemed suspect (they always do). If Tom Cavanagh ends up being the villain again, I swear to G(r)od(d). If HR is guilty, I (like many others) think the face transmogrification thing will come into play, and we'll have a double reveal, "HR is not Harrison Wells, he's X" and "X is Savitar". I wonder who that X might be.

That said, I prefer another theory.

17 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Speed force Eddie to Barry - You suck.

Speed force Ronnie to Barry - You suck.

Speed force Snart to Barry - You suck.

Barry to himself - I suck.

For the love of god, I think we get the point - can we move on? 

 

17 hours ago, xaxat said:

Barry welcome, to This is how you fucked up our your Life!

 

17 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

So again, Barry is left looking like a selfish and unfeeling asshole.

 

17 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I wonder if this was a panacea to those that watch and hate Barry/think he sucks? Since apparently he "gets away with everything."

There. The show a knowledged it. Can we move on already, like @cambridgeguy said above?

This episode sealed it. The theory that Barry himself is Savitar has been out there for a while, and now I'm more certain than ever.

Barry's character assassination this season, the fact he seems to be getting all the blame (rightfully, most of the time) and he even blames himself, the fact he keeps losing the people he cares about, the fact he seems to be losing sight of what's important and singlemindedly focusing on a "mission," it's all on purpose.

Season 3 isn't about Barry Allen's comeuppance. It's about Savitar's origin story.

It's all piling up, episode after episode, and Barry keeps making dumb choice after dumb choice, and it will all culminate in some type of timeloop-related paradox which will result in him becoming Savitar.

Or at least I hope so. Otherwise, this season will have been a complete waste.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Princess Lucky

[Trini]

There were so many complaints about sad/mopey Barry last season, I just don't know why they'd take this turn.

I'm going to enjoy the musical, but I'm dreading having to go back to nonsensical angst after.

[Grace19]

I also suspect that the relationship drama is just to leave the couples in a place where the next episode will make sense, they wanted to break them up so that music master or whatever his name is will teach Barry and kara a lesson about love. 

Barry and Iris are not the kind of couple to do the usual cw drama with, its out of character for both Barry and iris who have known each other their whole lives and have been in love too long, its just not realistic. The writers had to make up this fake drama to pull it off. I just hope that this is the last time they do so, just let the couple be, they can introduce drama another way.

I'm actually glad Jessi is gone, I love Jessie, but we already have too much speedsters, I'm ready to see Barry take down savitar on his own without help from the team. Let's have smart Barry for once

[zannej]

17 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

So I guess Flashpoint changed Snart's motivation for sacrificing himself last season?  Cause I remember that scene and, while he'd been moving away from villainy towards heroism since choosing to join the Legends, it was his love for BFF Mick Rory that led to that sacrifice.  Barry didn't factor in at all.  Of course, this was said to Barry when the Speedforce was telling him truths and messing with his mind so it could easily have lied to further the guilt. 

I don't think that what the speedforce version of Snart said truly reflected what Snart actually felt. I think it was just the speedforce or Barry's subconscious mind trying to guilt-trip him. I think of it like when Sheldon on Big Bang Theory talks to imaginary versions of people and they basically are just figments of his imagination who tell him what is already in his own mind.

11 hours ago, Jediknight said:

Come on show, Ronnie isn't dead because of Barry.  The singularity that Ronnie died trying to stop was because Eddie killed himself.  Barry had nothing to do with that, Eddie's death set off everything.

If Barry had not selfishly chosen to go back in time to save his mother-- while knowing that if he screwed up it could create a singularity that could wipe out the planet (or more), it wouldn't have happened. Reverse Flash would have remained trapped in the pipeline (until he eventually escaped-- because he had to have known how to get out). But, as another person said, Ronnie and other members supported this decision and enabled Barry. So, Barry had something to do with it, but so did other people-- including Eobard who knew full well what could happen. And frankly, if Eobard hadn't decided to be a dick and tear Eddie down so much while he was a captive, Eddie might not have killed himself.

I have another thought on the WestAllen breakup. What if Barry is purposely distancing Iris from him in a misguided attempt to protect her? What if he feels that if Savitar sees that they broke up, he might not think it is necessary to kill her? Because he was not at all convincing when he talked about needing space.

[tennisgurl]

So, I'm just going to stick to the actual episode, instead of that stupid fucking ending...

I enjoyed seeing some of the old characters come back (or at least Barry's guilt filled memories of them), and I liked the speed force calling Barry out for his terrible choices, and Jay is always awesome, but...it just seemed kind of mean at this point. Like, Barry already felt awful about Flashpoint before this, and multiple people have already called him out on being selfish and screwing people over, was the massive guilt trip necessary? I mean, Barry's dead friends/freinemies go on about how he's responsible for their tragic deaths, all the while he feels awful about Wally getting trapped in the speed force, while Barry looks like someone just gave him 100 paper cuts, and poured lemon juice all over them. Plus, I really don't think Wally getting sucked into the Speed Force is his fault. He asked Wally to save Iris because he thought it was a way around the future, not because he wouldn't do it himself. And, after being lectured endlessly about causing the deaths of people in his life, Jay gets stuck in the speed force, yet another in the line of people who Barry feels guilty about. Its just kicking a guy while he's down.

I was super happy to see Snart again, even if its just a vision of him. I always really liked his relationship with Barry, and its nice to see Barry having some positive feelings for the guy, and that he knows he died being a good guy. I'm a sucker, what can I say?

No, don't go Jessie! What about Earth 2? Weren't you going to stick around anyway? Isn't your boyfriend being trapped in a living hell for who knows how long and probably needs emotional support a good reason to stick around? Who will punch HR in the face now? Why is this episode filled with people doing things for no reason at all!

Alright, now on to the stupid. I still have literally no clue why Barry would want to "take time apart" or whatever. Is Iris going to just stop hanging at Star Labs? They see each other in their superhero capacity all the time, plus they have pretty much all the same friends and family, so they wont be avoiding each other anyway, so what's the deal? Yeah he and iris were moving too fast, but I didn't think it was too bad. You guys go through a lot of violent stuff, and you've known each other forever, so I don't mind them having a long engagement. But he's breaking up with her permanently? Just because he wanted to save her and asked her to marry her because of it? That's nonsense! I didn't like Iris calling off the engagement, but at least she seemed to still want to be with him. He seems to want to cut off all ties. WHY?! To keep Savitar from killing her? He still knows Barry loves Iris, so he will do the same thing anyway. Because he asked her to marry him for non pure reasons? He wanted to save her! And who cares? Just hold off on being engaged if you must. I swear, I loved WestAllen, I still do, but I also loved Olicity, and that ended with fake angst and stupidity. Why should I like ANY couple in this franchise?

Remember when The Flash was the fun, light superhero show, in contrast to the darkness and drama of Arrow? And Barry was the adorkable nerd kid to Oliver's moody action hero veteran? Those were good times.

Edited March 18, 2017 by tennisgurl

[rubyred]

It's cathartic to read all the reactions to the latest WestAllen clusterfuck. Somehow I have found a place of zen about it all, knowing that the writers are going to do something stupid/incomprehensible/completely lacking in any vestige of human insight, so I just wait for it to pass. They don't seem to realize that they continually troll their own narrative. But in the end it's a comic book show so I have let go of expecting that they know how to write relationships, write romance or write consistent characterizations of anyone other than the male characters. They still suck at writing women. But although Iris' reasons for ending their engagement were thin, they were at least plausible, which is more than the word salad Barry spouted last night. I still don't know what he was talking about. I was glad when Iris said, "what does that mean?" because I thought he'd then actually explain something coherent. But...no.

Still, at this point in the season I think it was inevitable that there would be a hiccup in the relationship. And next week Flash/Supergirl shippers will have a whole show from which to spawn their fanfic, so that's nice for them. I can hardly wait for the "Well, Barry & Kara have better chemistry than Barry & Iris anyway..." comments. /grim rant

(This is what I mean about the writers trolling their own narrative. By doing such a shoddy job on the main character's personal life they distract from what the show is supposed to be about - the adventures of a speedster superhero. The conversation about the show shouldn't be overshadowed by the sub- soap opera-quality "challenges" of the WestAllen relationship. Although as I write that I realize that I am not a comic reader, so maybe this is all par for the course for the character. I surely hope not.)

[ruby24]

4 hours ago, Grace19 said:

I also suspect that the relationship drama is just to leave the couples in a place where the next episode will make sense, they wanted to break them up so that music master or whatever his name is will teach Barry and kara a lesson about love. 

I think this is a pretty reasonable conclusion to draw actually. Barry is supposed to sing a song called "Running Home to You." 

[Ottis]

So, Iris, the man you love and want to be with, and who clearly has loved you all along, proposes "early" because he hopes it will save your life... and you're mad at him? And THEN you have the audacity to tell your dad you aren't sure you made the right decision? F off, Iris. F off. Take your butthurt with you. Karma, baby.

How many butts were hurting in this episode, anyway? Well, Iris of course. Jesse, because HR said she wasn't the real Flash. I'll excuse Speed Force Ronnie and Eobard, given they had, uh, died. Snart was refreshingly over the top amongst all the butthurt. Barry is so butthurt, he needs medical help. And ointment. The goofy Jay hat was finally good for something. And now it's back on display! 

Did the speed force give Wally a new hair style? 

Edited March 16, 2017 by Ottis

[waving feather]

At this point, Wally and Jesse seems like a more well-adjusted relationship than Barry and Iris. But of course, she has to leave. But just as well, because the writers will f up their sweet relationship if she has stayed. 

I have a soft spot for Wally. I don't like looking at his wounded sad face. Someone give him a hug!

[Maverick]

 Barry as Savitar is a reasonable theory, but this episode makes it harder.  The Speed Force--which apparently can see the past future and alternate timelines--tells Barry he created the prison and locked Savitar in it.   So unless he develops a literal split personality with one side of his body dragging him in it seems like it has to be someone else.  The odds on Wally also went down since he's been rescued already (although it could be a fake out).  Jay's unlikely since it's too soon to throw the real Savitar in there.  Since they're hitting so many notes from the previous seasons, like last year where we didn't even know there was a 'real' Jay Garrick that was an option until the end maybe this is how they'll introduce another new character.   Maybe it's Bart Allen.

 Didn't Jessie still have the claw she used to stab Savitar?  It's shame they can't find someone to run a DNA analysis on the blood on it,

[Chicago Redshirt]

26 minutes ago, Maverick said:

 Barry as Savitar is a reasonable theory, but this episode makes it harder.  The Speed Force--which apparently can see the past future and alternate timelines--tells Barry he created the prison and locked Savitar in it.   So unless he develops a literal split personality with one side of his body dragging him in it seems like it has to be someone else.  The odds on Wally also went down since he's been rescued already (although it could be a fake out).  Jay's unlikely since it's too soon to throw the real Savitar in there.

Time remnant Barry, Earth X Barry, imperfect duplicate Barry would all be possibilities that the show could draw from. I'm sure that writers could pull some more out if that's the way they wanted to go. 

It could also be some sort of future real deal Barry and either Present/near-future Barry locks himself in, or the Speed Force is telling Barry something that's true from a certain point of view or something.

Wally's time in Private Hell might be what gets him on the road to being Savitar.

There's probably 6-7 episodes left, one of which is the musical episode, so I don't think putting Jay in Private Hell is too soon for him to be Savitar. I'm guessing that the reveal of Savitar is probably 2-3 episodes away

[Trini]

1 hour ago, rubyred said:

...Still, at this point in the season I think it was inevitable that there would be a hiccup in the relationship. ...

I expected a hiccup. What they did here was dumb. Barry "You're everything to me" Allen wouldn't break up with the woman he has been in love with forever for no reason.

[TwistedandBored]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

I expected a hiccup. What they did here was dumb. Barry "You're everything to me" Allen wouldn't break up with the woman he has been in love with forever for no reason.

It is CW, I expect them to do shit like this. I have watched more of their shows than I can count and they have always broken up my couples over the stupidest thing. 

Hopefully, they will fix this in few episodes. 

[FiveByFive]

17 hours ago, Jediknight said:

Come on show, Ronnie isn't dead because of Barry.  The singularity that Ronnie died trying to stop was because Eddie killed himself.  Barry had nothing to do with that, Eddie's death set off everything.

True, Eddie made that decision on his own. Although when Speed Force Eddie was asking if rescuing Wally was the only reason he was there I kept thinking, wait ... didn't Eddie's body get sucked into the paradox after he "killed" himself? What if .....

Otherwise it was another episode where every character made one stupid decision after the next as I've come to expect from this show. 

On 3/14/2017 at 10:47 PM, thuganomics85 said:

Meanwhile, Jesse decided to go after Savitar herself, and is able to injure him, but finds out that he has "plans" for her, so she jets off to Earth 3 to takeover for Jay, during his absent.  Yeah, that is totally going to work!

I actually think this was the smartest decision she could have made or that any character has made on this show in a long time. Iris knows she's going to die generally at a certain time, at a certain place, while wearing a certain outfit and no wedding ring but she does nothing to circumvent that herself. On one hand, because of "time stuff" we know that any action she takes could lead to this happening. On the other hand, her doing nothing will definitely lead to this happening.

Jesse knows Savitar has "plans" for her so rather than stay and fight she takes off to Jay's world where Savitar isn't present but she's obviously needed as their "Flash." I just appreciate that she's not sitting around giving him an opportunity to do this and is being active in preventing that destiny herself.

[RobertDeSneero]

The lesson that the Speed Force seemed to want to teach Barry was that he should stop trying to change the future.  So, he won't.  He won't try to put a ring on her finger.  I get the sense that he may have a plan that requires Iris (and perhaps the rest of the gang) to not know what he is up to so that they don't tip off Savitar.  Even if the plan works, it's the sort of thing that can cause resentment when all is revealed, leading to future drama and angst that some may see as contrived.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I'm going to be honest - I was ready to drop this show after the mid-season finale, but I decided to stick it out until the musical. This episode has reinforced my belief that I made the right decision because sheesh. The writers aren't even trying to make sense anymore. Barry breaking up with Iris, sorry, getting some space, made about as much sense as if he had said, "I'm going to get some sandwiches for lunch. By the way, we're done."

First, I must backtrack to last week and how annoyed I was with Iris for getting mad at Barry because he proposed to save her. I know what it's like when you have loved each other for a long time. You know you're going to get married eventually, just not right now at this very minute. I have no doubt in my mind that both Barry and Iris knew they wanted to get married eventually, so what is the big fucking deal that he proposed IN THE HOPES OF SAVING HER LIFE? Iris talking about how that tainted their relationship was ridiculous to me. You know you love each other. You know you want to get married. Why is it such a terrible thing that he thought proposing sooner rather than later might save you from dying? If it works and that changed the future enough that she doesn't die, great. If it doesn't work, then at least they got the happiness of being engaged/married before she dies. I'd also like to point out that if the shoe were on the other foot and Iris thought Barry's life was in danger and she had a chance to save him, she would do anything she could think of to keep him alive too, so it's a little hypocritical for her to be upset that Barry thought proposing might help change the future.

This week, Iris realizes that the only thing that matters is that she loves Barry and she wants to marry him so all is forgiven. Yay! And then the writers have Barry say, "I think we need some space for a while. I don't know how we can move forward like this." Okay, Barry, you know when Iris is supposed to die because you watched it happen, so instead of spending every possible moment with her before that date, you're going to move out so you can have some space? What the fucking fuck?

[ohjoy]

16 hours ago, Ottis said:

Did the speed force give Wally a new hair style? 

Oh good -- I thought the same thing, but then wondered if I just haven't been paying attention to Wally's hair in that Kid Flash costume. I actually kind of like the new style.

[Grace19]

Another thing, kudos to Candice for crying on the spot, that was some good acting.

[Spaceman Spiff]

So the Speed Force was basically slapping Barry on the wrist because it said Barry had to save Iris in the future and Barry was delegating that task to Wally? Did I understand that correctly? And Wentworth Miller has been away far too long, and he forgot how to play Capt Cold, because his line reading were so over the top it was cringe worthy. Even though next week looks fun, it does seem like it will be out of place considering all that happened in this episode.

15 hours ago, Grace19 said:

Another thing, kudos to Candice for crying on the spot, that was some good acting.

I saw an actor explain once, about crying on screen, if the tear drop falls from the middle of the eye, it's because they put eye drops in to simulate a tear, if it falls from the corner of the eye, it's more likely a real tear. Nobody cries naturally with tears falling from the middle of the eye.

[phoenics]

Even though I'm pretty sure this means nothing - wasn't the part of Savitar's armor that Team Flash had (before Jesse gave it back to him) the part of him that he uses to kill Iris?

Team Flash should have kept it.

[Ottis]

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

Even though I'm pretty sure this means nothing - wasn't the part of Savitar's armor that Team Flash had (before Jesse gave it back to him) the part of him that he uses to kill Iris?

Team Flash should have kept it.

Actually, at this stage, I think Team Flash should just kill Iris themselves. That changes the timeline, and Barry has less angst. 

[phoenics]

34 minutes ago, Ottis said:

Actually, at this stage, I think Team Flash should just kill Iris themselves. That changes the timeline, and Barry has less angst. 

Thankfully for me, I don't think that's what the show will do.  Also - the show has made it pretty plain that without Iris West, there is no Flash.  Probably why Savitar wants her dead - and I suspect that Barry himself - some remnant of him or something is Savitar - or maybe even this version.

My theory is that in order to become fast enough to beat Savitar - Barry ends up using the stone to become faster than Savitar - but that's what makes him BECOME Savitar.  He just doesn't know it yet.

Edited March 17, 2017 by phoenics

[Grace19]

Yes, I'm sure that team flash killing iris will lead to less angsty.

I re-watched the episode and lmao at Barry using the elevator to out run the speed wraiths, who would have thought that elevators are faster than speedsters.

[Grace19]

52 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Thankfully for me, I don't think that's what the show will do.  Also - the show has made it pretty plain that without Iris West, there is no Flash.  Probably why Savitar wants her dead - and I suspect that Barry himself - some remnant of him or something is Savitar - or maybe even this version.

My theory is that in order to become fast enough to beat Savitar - Barry ends up using the stone to become faster than Savitar - but that's what makes him BECOME Savitar.  He just doesn't know it yet.

That's a nice theory.

 

5 minutes ago, doram said:

Ooooh.

Although the idea of any version of Barry wanting to kill Iris gives me the jeebies...

I actually would love savitar to be barry, I think Grant will play the hell out of that role, he's good at playing the bad guy. His bitch face when Wally was accusing Barry of having ulterior motive for asking iris to marry him was priceless.

[GHScorpiosRule]

In my head cannon, Grant is silently screaming "what BULLSHIT IS THIS??!!" With respect to what his script was for this episode. But being the good employee, is toeing the company line, and doing his job. Just like another favorite character/actress of mine did, on another show, many moons ago. Even if she hadn't been the lead or star.

I'm not going to make any predictions as to who/what Savitar is, and again, just repeat, that what the writers HACKS had Barry say to Iris at the end, CONTRADICTS EVERYTHING he's told Iris before and flies in the face of everything that has come before.???

And the biggest of ironies?? I was never a shipper of Barry/Iris until Grant and Candice made me one. Hell, even in the comics and my much loved JL/JLU, which featured Wally West as the grown up Flash, no love interest-just super heroing and Flash thinking he was "A Stud."?? They did show Linda Park once-but Wally was too oblivious to her interest in him.

So, in my long, convoluted, doped up with drugs way, I'm trying to say I wasn't a part of the fandom that was a shipper, if that makes sense. I just wanted to see the potential and adorkableness that Grant Gustin portrayed in his first appearance on Arrow, be the character all the time-and not this sad sack of angst and glum and depression we've gotten for the past two and a half seasons. And I DO and WILL blame the writers  hacks, Kreisberg, and whoever was and is involved taking this route. They're nothing but a bunch of LYING LIARS WHO LIE.

Edited March 19, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[Simba122504]

I don't care about WestAllen. I don't care about any ship on this show and I usually like at least one. I liked Patty/Barry because it wasn't full of too much drama until the "I cannot tell her who I am" trope but the actors had cute chemistry. Iris needs a storyline outside of being just a love interest. This show will be heading into its fourth season. Treat all your female characters right. Iris, Caitlin, Jesse all have been written badly. Gypsy isn't a full time cast member so they cannot ruin her yet. She's still cool at the moment. This episode didn't live up to the hype. Future Barry is now number 1 on the list of "Who's Savitar?" I didn't forget about Joe being honored by the CCPD future plot. Either he dies(of course I don't want it, but it's a possibility) or he helps save the day without dying. 

Edited March 17, 2017 by Simba122504

[immortalfrieza]

On 3/14/2017 at 11:42 PM, zannej said:

This was an interesting one although the pace was a bit slow at some points. Didn't really need so much time of Caitlin with the ugly little baby (I think ALL babies are ugly). I'm a curmudgeon, I don't like babies or children. The speedforce trying to make Barry feel guilty for what could have been was a bit of a stretch in some regards. A part of me contends that what he sees in the speedforce is more a fabrication of his own mind & insecurities. In many ways, the things that happened were just as much Eobard's fault (if not more).

The speedforce version of Eddie saying that they only let him leave because Barry said he'd come to terms with his mother's death was dumb. I mean, I think Barry felt like he had come to terms with it, but his father being murdered in front of him reopened that wound. And Barry is still only 3 years in to this. He still has a lot to learn.

The worst part is that The Speed Force really didn't help Barry get over his mother's death, it just issued an ultimatium "Get over your mother's death RIGHT NOW or even if you get out of here you'll never have your speed again." The Speed Force held his speed and the treat of Zoom over Barry to get him to do what it wanted and was surprised when it turned out forcing someone to just get over grief doesn't work, especially when it's followed by tragedy just as if not more extreme.

"Just get over your mother's death already and go be a hero" was the extent of his stay in the Speed Force last time. This time wasn't really any different, "just get off your ass and stop Savitar yourself already!" was the theme of the whole thing. Despite the fact that Barry had very VERY good reason to believe he was no match for Savitar and Wally was The Speed Force berates him for coming to the obvious conclusion. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that all this is just setting Barry up for somehow ending up getting faster out of nowhere and beat Savitar at the end of the season.

Flashpoint is the only thing on the show Barry could really be considered actually responsible for, and even then the results of both Barry changing the timeline and changing it back still make no logical sense and as such Barry couldn't be expected to take responsibility for choices leading to results he couldn't possibly have predicted. Yet another thing for The Speed Force to berate him for.

Of course Jessie and Jay are out of the picture and Wally's all shaken up from his time in the Speed Force, it's narratively convenient. If all 4 speedsters all attacked Savitar at the same time he wouldn't stand a chance, so getting rid of 3 of them levels the playing field. It would actually be a fairly nice way to get things down to just Barry and Savitar if it weren't for the fact that all of it is simply the result of the villain telling people things to get them to do what he wants and the heroes listening for some reason.

Edited March 18, 2017 by immortalfrieza

[Argenta]

I came here to complain bitterly and at length about the ridiculous contrived Barry/Iris break-up, but you've all already done it so well there's really nothing left for me to write.

[Trini]

23 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

Of course Jessie and Jay are out of the picture and Wally's all shaken up from his time in the Speed Force, it's narratively convenient. If all 4 speedsters all attacked Savitar at the same time he wouldn't stand a chance, so getting rid of 3 of them levels the playing field. It would actually be a fairly nice way to get things down to just Barry and Savitar if it weren't for the fact that all of it is simply the result of the villain telling people things to get them to do what he wants and the heroes listening for some reason.

Even though the Speed Force says otherwise, I'm still hoping that multiple speedsters are the solution to defeating Savitar. A team-up could be really epic if they play it right.

[BkWurm1]

On 3/14/2017 at 11:27 PM, ruby24 said:

At least they set up the whole Oliver keeping a secret thing eight episodes before the break-up, so you knew the other shoe would drop at some point. This came out of nowhere in the second half of the last episode, and makes NO sense.

Hey that was no picnic!  I would have preferred it to come out of nowhere.  Instead we had eight episodes to angst over and it went on long enough to let viewers start hoping maybe he'd fix his idiocy before it was too late, but here we are more than a year later and NOPE!  So count your blessings, lol.  

On 3/14/2017 at 11:34 PM, Maverick said:

 

 Barry called the thing trying to kill him Zolomon, so it appears that's who's chasing Eobard since they look like the same creature.  Between that, Future Barry's message to Rip and the fact Savitar is imprisoned in the future they're ultimately going to tie the two threads together.  

So the thing that is after Eobard Thane because he's just a time remnant that needs to be cleaned up is also after Barry.  Does that mean that technically Barry is also a time remnant?  I mean Barry allowed his past self to be killed so technically there should be no current or future Barry.  Therefore is Barry caught in the same paradoxical existence as Eobard?  

On 3/14/2017 at 11:42 PM, zannej said:

 

And then we get to probably the dumbest thing I've seen on the show: Barry being given the opportunity to put the ring back on Iris' finger and instead saying they need to have "space". WTF? Seriously? When he said "I love you" and there was a pause I was waiting for the "But" and thinking "If he says 'but' I'm going to punch someone." and then it came and it was worse than I expected. And the sad thing is, he completely lacked conviction. I felt like Grant didn't want to say the words and that Barry didn't really mean it. It just made absolutely NO sense whatsoever.

Is it because he felt guilty for the things the speedforce showed him and he's punishing himself because he thinks he doesn't deserve to be happy? It's just absolutely idiotic.

I just don't understand why the show has to stall this relationship.

Only other plausible thing I can think of is that the *real* Barry is still in the speedforce and someone else came out pretending to be Barry.

Well Grant Gustin at the Paley Center Arrowverse panel did say that he still wasn't really sure why they broke up so you may be onto something, lol.  

On 3/15/2017 at 3:06 AM, Trini said:

They've been acknowledging it since the start of Season 2. And even more so in the first half of this season -- but haters gotta hate.
 

There really wasn't a good reason. I'm hoping they don't wait until the end of the season to reunite them. At least they both reaffirmed that they still loved each other.

I'd be surprised if they aren't back together by the end of the Musical episode or at least by the next one.  Then when they kill her, (spec) it's even more sad!  (Hey, I don't think it will stick, the whole dying thing)

On 3/15/2017 at 5:16 AM, Jediknight said:

Come on show, Ronnie isn't dead because of Barry.  The singularity that Ronnie died trying to stop was because Eddie killed himself.  Barry had nothing to do with that, Eddie's death set off everything.

We don't actually know that it was Eddie's death that did it or or at least did it alone.  Barry had already destabilized everything with his trip back in time.  And also, why did Eddie kill himself?  Cause Eobard was about to kill Barry.  And why was he able to almost kill Barry?  Cause Barry let him out of the cell and made a dell so he could go back in time and save his mother at the risk of the universe.  So even if we don't blame Barry for the singularity, he's still the reason that Eddie felt he had to kill himself.  But that's all old news.  

Edited March 19, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Trini]

7 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

 Then when they kill her, (spec) it's even more sad!  (Hey, I don't think it will stick, the whole dying thing)

Eh... I think the fact that they keep showing her die over and over (and OVER) makes her the safest person in the cast right now. I don't think she'll die - even temporarily. Who WILL die (because I don't think the writers can help themselves) is the real worry here.

[BkWurm1]

4 minutes ago, Trini said:

Eh... I think the fact that they keep showing her die over and over (and OVER) makes her the safest person in the cast right now. I don't think she'll die - even temporarily. Who WILL die (because I don't think the writers can help themselves) is the real worry here.

I'm going with the opposite, that the only way to make it shocking is if she actually DOES die.  But yeah, they could accomplish that with a fake out where we THINK she's dead and it's actually someone else.  Would Caitlin take her place?  Joe?  HR? Joe's girlfriend's daughter? (That last one is just because I'm curious why we even know her)

[Mellowyellow]

I can't get over Wally's haircut in the speed force!

Oh Iris you poor poppet! Call Felicity up for a drink and bond over moronic exes!

[KirkB]

In a world where there are ultra realistic holograms and people who can alter their face, not to mention time remnants, Barry shouldn't take Iris's death at, pardon the pun, face value. Just because he saw Savitar killing her doesn't mean that is what actually happens. And I have also seen enough time travel stuff to know the harder you try to keep something from happening the more it happens.

I'm presuming the Speed Force knows a lot more than it's telling. It probably knows who Savitar is and how Barry can stop him, but since he didn't bother to ask the source of both their powers anything about him while he had the chance he's on his own. So now Jessie is gone and Wally is basically down for the count. But seriously, did anyone really think it was going to be up to anyone else but Barry to stop the villain? Really?

Edited March 19, 2017 by KirkB

[AudienceofOne]

Whelmed

Captain Cold is till disturbing sexy

[ottoDbusdriver]

On 3/19/2017 at 5:24 PM, KirkB said:

In a world where there are ultra realistic holograms and people who can alter their face, not to mention time remnants, Barry shouldn't take Iris's death at, pardon the pun, face value. Just because he saw Savitar killing her doesn't mean that is what actually happens. And I have also seen enough time travel stuff to know the harder you try to keep something from happening the more it happens.

I'm presuming the Speed Force knows a lot more than it's telling. It probably knows who Savitar is and how Barry can stop him, but since he didn't bother to ask the source of both their powers anything about him while he had the chance he's on his own. So now Jessie is gone and Wally is basically down for the count. But seriously, did anyone really think it was going to be up to anyone else but Barry to stop the villain? Really?

Maybe the Speed Force is just a dick, and playing with Barry because it's bored.

It probably knows who Savitar is, how he/she was created (hey, maybe Savitar is Jessie), and knows how to stop Savitar -- but it just doesn't want to tell Barry.

[AudienceofOne]

Of course it knows what's going on. It's the "godlike aliens" of 1950s comics. We can do/know/change anything. But we won't. Because...

[sarthaz]

Finally got to this episode.  Wish I hadn't.  I don't know which I like less: an entire episode of pointless SpeedForce nonsense or WestAllen going out of their way to keep themselves from each other because DRAMA!  Ugh ... this show is really going to shit.

[Airraz0r]

About this episode: the speed force is ticked off w/ Barry for creating flashpoint & from Eddie, Ronnie, & Leonard appeared to him to let their displeasure. Caitlin's singing a baby's lullaby, how things would've been if those 3 were still alive. They selflessly gave their lives for not only the city, but for Barry as well. This season just brings out the worst of Barry & the show runners & writers are to blame for that.

Another thing: Jay taking Wally's place of beingtrapped showed me a few things. That & Caitlin holding a fragment of that stone means Savitar's prophecy means someone else will commit the betrayal, someone else will fall, & somebody's is going to suffer worse than death itself.