S01.E18: Moonshadow

[Arcadiasw]

Glad I was wrong about how Jack died but even if Jack and Rebecca waited until the morning to talk the end result would be the same with a separation. That argument was a long time coming. 

How long has Jack played Poker with people? You never leave after one play if you win big and if you do, run like hell out of there!

Like others, I kept expecting Jack to die. I even held out to the very end when he walked out assuming a car was gonna run over him in the driveway. 

Randall reminds me of Jack a few episodes ago wanting a kid. Not sure if he's in the best emotional state now to want a kid and he will have to convince Beth.

[AriAu]

So.....very confused. Glad Jack didn't die in a drunk driving accident, but I thought we were getting some clue on what happened and why Kate think she is to blame...but, whatever.

I thought Jack's big speech at the end ended well, but began very weakly. He loved how she was as a mom, which feeds directly into what she hates about her life. His next lines were all about how she looks (she did look great and they did nothing to make her look mid 40's, but I digress), which certainly would not change her view. Then he talked about her being his big break, which is a nice line, but doesn't really give her a reason for them to be together.

By the way, Jack was really pounding those drinks. That was not alcoholic behavior, that was "I want to get drunk" behavior.

And, I really hope that Beth smacks some sense into Randall and gets him to focus on being a great dad to the 2 kids he has as a tribute to his biological father. And I hope he doesn't do it as another way to show Rebecca that he is better than her.

[UsernameFatigue]

Hated this episode. OK, not hated the whole thing - the part that I didn't hate bored me to tears. I found so much of Jack's backstory hard to believe. At what age did he go to Vietnam and what age did he return? Has that ever been established? I find it hard to believe that at 28 he is living at home. These days it isn't unusual for a 28 year old to live at home since many have been raised and coddled as special snowflakes. However Jack was born in 1944 - a very different era. If he couldn't find steady work he would more likely be sharing a place with several buddies or at the very least couch surfing until he landed a place/job. The only people of my era (and I am 13 years younger than Jack) who lived at home at that age - certainly guys -  were socially backward and lived at home their whole lives. Even less unlikely that his father, who he doesn't get along with in the first place, would let him live at home. Not at all common in that era, and certainly for a son nearing 30. And most adults at that age would do anything to not live at home. (Other than rob a pub, of course). 

Regarding the poker game - I don't even play poker and would know better than to play one hand, win, and leave. Obviously Jack knows how to play poker so don't believe he would be stupid enough to walk into a game of strangers, win, and leave thinking there would be no repercussions. 

Finally, robbing a pub? Seriously? We have never seen anything from Jack that would indicate that he would commit robbery. Heck he has worked for years at a job that he doesn't really like. Kept at it when he wanted to leave because he is a responsible person. Has never shown that he would take the easy way out, let alone commit a crime of that magnitude. Not. Buying. It. Did I mention that I hated this episode? 

[qtpye]

10 minutes ago, UsernameFatigue said:

Finally, robbing a pub? Seriously? We have never seen anything from Jack that would indicate that he would commit robbery. Heck he has worked for years at a job that he doesn't really like. Kept at it when he wanted to leave because he is a responsible person. Has never shown that he would take the easy way out, let alone commit a crime of that magnitude. Not. Buying. It. Did I mention that I hated this episode? 

When he saw Rebecca on stage she was so pure and beautiful, that he decided right there and then he must be worthy of this woman, so that she will carry and nurture his seed.  It was at that moment that he became St. Jack the all knowing.

If you believe that, I also own a bridge in Brooklyn I have been meaning to sell.

[LoveLeigh]

17 minutes ago, UsernameFatigue said:

Hated this episode. OK, not hated the whole thing - the part that I didn't hate bored me to tears. Not. Buying. It. Did I mention that I hated this episode? 

I too really did not like this episode. The young poker playing Jack was silly and the Jack that almost robbed that place seemed a contrived way to get him to meet Rebecca: she was so mesmerizing that she distracted him and that ruined the chance to rob the bar. It was too "meet cute." 

I think the writers have to be careful about creating in every episode manipulative moments to make the audience cry. Every episode does not have to be so emotional or have big surprises. 

I was disappointed because I thought we were going to find out how Jack died. So when is this show coming back? In January? 

Edited March 15, 2017 by DakotaLavender
typos

[Katy M]

10 minutes ago, UsernameFatigue said:

I found so much of Jack's backstory hard to believe. At what age did he go to Vietnam and what age did he return? Has that ever been established? I find it hard to believe that at 28 he is living at home. These days it isn't unusual for a 28 year old to live at home since many have been raised and coddled as special snowflakes

See, I wish they would have explained the timing of when exactly the epi was taking place.  Because if he was fresh back from Vietnam, as in a couple of months, I don't find it that odd he was still living at home.  But, if it had been at least a year, I do, especially seeing the way he feels about his father.  And, this is the first I've heard of him being in Vietnam.  I just looked this up, all combat forces were pulled from Vietnam in 1973.  If Jack was born in 1944 that means he was there from '71 to '73 tops.   We know that the episode took place before 1979 since the kids were born in 1980.  But, I have no idea how long they were together before that, and it would have been nice if the show gave us a clue, which I might very well have missed, since I, too, found the episode boring.

[OtterMommy]

The problem with waiting to watch this on Hulu the next day is that the episode thread has 200+ post before I get to it (not that I'm complaining....I could have stayed up and watched it last night, so it really is my fault). Anyway, as usual, I'm posting my thoughts here before I go through everyone else's, so I apologize for repetition.

Anyway....um... Meh.  

Honestly, that was probably the dullest episode of the season.  The only thing that got me the least bit interested was when Jack said he had been a mechanic in Vietnam.  My father was a mechanic in Vietnam and did 4 tours (and, judging from my father's experience, those in positions such as his did tend to have an easier time of it).  But beyond that...nada.

My personal pet peeve and maybe this is a UO, but I hate card game scenes on TV.  They are generally as dull as dust, just as this one.  I kept looking at my watch, waiting for it to end.  And, yeah, I knew before the card game started that Jack was going get beat up when he left. **Because that is how all such scenes go.**

The Jack and Rebecca fight was very realistic--but realistic to a point that it was very same old/same old.  I've seen that scene a million times and seeing it again made me roll my eyes, which was the second biggest reaction I had to anything in the show.  The biggest reaction was in the 45 second Kevin and Sophie clip when I yelled, "Quit trying to force this!" at the TV. Then, when they said their love yous, my response was, "Really?  Could have fooled me...."

I guess my biggest takeaway from this episode was that last week's episode should have been the season finale.

[laurakaye]

2 hours ago, BeatrixK said:

At least we know there must be some Genetic thing to the family performers bailing on their showmates right before a first performance.  (Kevin and his play, and now Rebecca and her band.)

I thought the same thing...and would add Randall walking away from his job and, to a lesser extent, Kate bailing on the weight loss camp.  In real life, when things get difficult, one cannot simply walk away without big-time repercussions.  This entire family seems to do this frequently.  It's hard to get invested in anything that happens to them if their collective solution is to walk away.

And does anyone else think that Rebecca wasn't thinking of leaving the gig until Jack showed up drunk?  In other words, after her bandmate hit on her, she was still going to perform, yes?  I find that interesting.

[Calamity Jane]

4 hours ago, Literata said:

Exactly right about the "major mystery" suspense. That's precisely why I stopped watching The Blacklist. My husband still watches and every so often I'll ask, "Hey, do you know if Red is Liz's dad yet?" I'm not patient enough for the endless string-along.

Me, too!

[ShadowFacts]

15 minutes ago, UsernameFatigue said:

Hated this episode. OK, not hated the whole thing - the part that I didn't hate bored me to tears. I found so much of Jack's backstory hard to believe. At what age did he go to Vietnam and what age did he return? Has that ever been established? I find it hard to believe that at 28 he is living at home. These days it isn't unusual for a 28 year old to live at home since many have been raised and coddled as special snowflakes. However Jack was born in 1944 - a very different era. If he couldn't find steady work he would more likely be sharing a place with several buddies or at the very least couch surfing until he landed a place/job. The only people of my era (and I am 13 years younger than Jack) who lived at home at that age - certainly guys -  were socially backward and lived at home their whole lives. Even less unlikely that his father, who he doesn't get along with in the first place, would let him live at home. Not at all common in that era, and certainly for a son nearing 30. And most adults at that age would do anything to not live at home. (Other than rob a pub, of course). 

Regarding the poker game - I don't even play poker and would know better than to play one hand, win, and leave. Obviously Jack knows how to play poker so don't believe he would be stupid enough to walk into a game of strangers, win, and leave thinking there would be no repercussions. 

Finally, robbing a pub? Seriously? We have never seen anything from Jack that would indicate that he would commit robbery. Heck he has worked for years at a job that he doesn't really like. Kept at it when he wanted to leave because he is a responsible person. Has never shown that he would take the easy way out, let alone commit a crime of that magnitude. Not. Buying. It. Did I mention that I hated this episode? 

If he was born in 1944 he could have been draft age before the draft ended, or he could have enlisted.  It hasn't been established.  Lots of veterans ended up homeless, but in his case, we had clunky exposition dialog with the lady whose car he fixed that he wasn't one of the messed up ones (bad writing).  I found it unbelievable that he would continue to live with that vile father, but I guess I can be persuaded that he did not want to leave his mother there alone with him.  What I could not accept at all is him planning to rob the mafia-connected bar.  The man is not stupid.  The writing is.  He could have met Rebecca in the place short of robbing it, but I suppose we needed to see that she "saved" him.  Too much. 

[Trooper York]

4 hours ago, Neurochick said:

If Rebecca hadn't been singing in bars, she and Jack never would have met.

I know right. 

He would have been so much better off if he had married someone else. 

I bet we will feel that even more when we find out how he died. I bet he gets run over going to the dry cleaners to get her dress for her next superstar gig at the Blarney Stone.

[OtterMommy]

14 hours ago, AuntiePam said:

Seriously.  So Jack's answer to his financial problem isn't to get a full-time job, or go to school.  Nope, it's to put all his savings into a poker game.  And when that doesn't work, well, "I guess I'll just rob a bar. But it's okay, since they robbed me."  Tell it to the judge, idjit. 

Yeah, especially when he had just made this speech out how he wasn't going to be like his father, who always made the "wrong" choice.

I'm not sure how you can argue that robbing a bar is the right choice, dude.

[tennisgurl]

I thought that was a good episode, but as a finale, I thought it was a bit lackluster. I'm glad that Jack is still going to be around in Flashbacks, and that he didn't die because he was drunk driving, of course, but I just REALLY wanted to know how he died. I'm pretty sure we will find out pretty quickly how he died into next season though, considering I'm pretty sure that last conversation was the last time Rebecca will ever see Jack.

Man, that fight was so intense and real. It felt so intimate and intense, I almost wanted to look away, like I was watching two of my friends fight at a dinner party. I think both of them were both right and wrong in their arguments. Rebecca does do a lot for the family, even if its not financial, and she's sad that she gave up her dream of singing to be a stay at home mom, and she was probably still pretty pissed off about her ex making a pass at her. Jack is upset that Rebecca seemingly doesn't appreciate how he gave up HIS dreams to take a job he didn't like to support their family, and he's hurt that Rebecca apparently thinks being with him was a mistake, plus he's probably still a little drunk and angry at himself for it. It was a really well written fight, and pulled from issues we have seen from them all season (we even saw Rebecca calling out Jack for his tendency to make huge decisions without consulting her), and Milo and Mandy did a great job.

I'm not really excited about watching Kate pursue singing. What does EVERYONE on TV have to do something "cool" and "artsy" for a living? I mean, I'm all for going for your dreams, but being a singer is a hard field to break into, and while Kate is good, she didn't sound super incredible enough to sustain a career. Someone has to love mergers and acquisitions too, even if it isn't as sexy.

I wonder if Randal and Beth will adopt a kid from a different race or nationality? Then he will be on the other side of a cross cultural adoption, and maybe see more of his parents struggles.

This show could certainly annoy me, but I love it all the same, and I`ll miss it a lot until next season.

[DayGlorious]

4 minutes ago, Trooper York said:

I know right. 

He would have been so much better off if he had married someone else. 

I bet we will feel that even more when we find out how he died. I bet he gets run over going to the dry cleaners to get her dress for her next superstar gig at the Blarney Stone.

Thanks for making me spit iced coffee all over my keyboard. 

That was a hell of a dress, though. 

[UsernameFatigue]

14 minutes ago, Katy M said:

See, I wish they would have explained the timing of when exactly the epi was taking place.  Because if he was fresh back from Vietnam, as in a couple of months, I don't find it that odd he was still living at home.  But, if it had been at least a year, I do, especially seeing the way he feels about his father.  And, this is the first I've heard of him being in Vietnam.  I just looked this up, all combat forces were pulled from Vietnam in 1973.  If Jack was born in 1944 that means he was there from '71 to '73 tops.   We know that the episode took place before 1979 since the kids were born in 1980.  But, I have no idea how long they were together before that, and it would have been nice if the show gave us a clue, which I might very well have missed, since I, too, found the episode boring.

The year that Jack met Rebecca was 1972. (Because the kids were born in 1980 when Jack was 36, his father mentions that he is 28, and he was born in 1944). Also I think the letter Rebecca got was dated 1972. From what I read, the draft for men born in 1944 took place in 1969. How long were they expected to serve? Assuming he was drafted did he serve a year? Two? I agree with those that say the writers are to have us believe that meeting Rebecca saved Jack apparently from what could have been a life of crime. Not buying it, and I guess I am not the only one. 

[Kohola3]

Quote

My personal pet peeve and maybe this is a UO, but I hate card game scenes on TV.  

Table for two on that one.  As soon as they sat down I wandered off to the kitchen.

And my pet peeve is that every blind date features the unknown party as having some boring job (usually in finance or insurance), is usually late, and blathers on about the job thus giving our hero/heroine an excuse for blowing off the rest of the date.

[UsernameFatigue]

22 minutes ago, DakotaLavender said:

I too really did not like this episode. The young poker playing Jack was silly and the Jack that almost robbed that place seemed a contrived way to get him to meet Rebecca: she was so mesmerizing that she distracted him and that ruined the chance to rob the bar. It was too "meet cute." 

I think the writers have to be careful about creating in every episode manipulative moments to make the audience cry. Every episode does not have to be so emotional or have big surprises. 

I was disappointed because I thought we were going to find out how Jack died. So when is this show coming back? In January? 

The show is not back for 6 months. The actor playing Randall had an interesting comment on last night's ET. Something along the lines of asking the fans to stick with them. I guess it was in relation to having to wait 6 months for the next season to start, but maybe he thought the last epi of this season was a clunker too, and some fans might not return. 

[Trooper York]

2 minutes ago, UsernameFatigue said:

The year that Jack met Rebecca was 1972. (Because the kids were born in 1980 when Jack was 36, his father mentions that he is 28, and he was born in 1944). Also I think the letter Rebecca got was dated 1972. From what I read, the draft for men born in 1944 took place in 1969. How long were they expected to serve? Assuming he was drafted did he serve a year? Two? I agree with those that say the writers are to have us believe that meeting Rebecca saved Jack apparently from what could have been a life of crime. Not buying it, and I guess I am not the only one. 

That's not true.

Being married to Rebecca was a crime. The poor sap was just blinded by her good looks. He never got over that. His big speech told us that  Poor sap.

[luna1122]

25 minutes ago, laurakaye said:

I thought the same thing...and would add Randall walking away from his job and, to a lesser extent, Kate bailing on the weight loss camp.  In real life, when things get difficult, one cannot simply walk away without big-time repercussions.  This entire family seems to do this frequently.  It's hard to get invested in anything that happens to them if their collective solution is to walk away.

And does anyone else think that Rebecca wasn't thinking of leaving the gig until Jack showed up drunk?  In other words, after her bandmate hit on her, she was still going to perform, yes?  I find that interesting.

It didn't occur to me she'd bail on the performance just cuz that guy hit on her, or that she should. Women get hit on all the time, we don't just quit our responsibilities or jobs or gigs, and her ex (I can't remember his name) wasn't harassing or pressuring her after the initial move--I assume he would have let if drop after she made it clear it was a no go.  I don't know, had it been me, I'd have still stayed, even after Jack acted a drunken fool. I'd have taken away his keys so he couldn't drive, finished the gig and then worried about all the rest of it.  I assume the band still went on without her, I hope.

7 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

Table for two on that one.  As soon as they sat down I wandered off to the kitchen.

And my pet peeve is that every blind date features the unknown party as having some boring job (usually in finance or insurance), is usually late, and blathers on about the job thus giving our hero/heroine an excuse for blowing off the rest of the date.

Yeah, watching card games is endlessly dull to me too.  and it doesn't help when they show me the hand they got dealt, I have no idea what it means cuz I'm poker-illiterate. But even I know you don't win and then bolt.

[Guest]

Was Mandy Moore a teen mall act once?  I'm thinking she snubbed someone for an autograph.  

[Katy M]

6 minutes ago, luna1122 said:

It didn't occur to me she'd bail on the performance just cuz that guy hit on her, or that she should. Women get hit on all the time, we don't just quit our responsibilities or jobs or gigs, and her ex (I can't remember his name) wasn't harassing or pressuring her after the initial move--I assume he would have let if drop after she made it clear it was a no go.  I don't know, had it been me, I'd have still stayed, even after Jack acted a drunken fool. I'd have taken away his keys so he couldn't drive, finished the gig and then worried about all the rest of it.  I assume the band still went on without her, I hope.

Nope.  If I were married, and my husband didn't want me going on a business trip with my ex because he still had the hots for me, and said ex kissed me, I would be so out of there.  My marriage is more important than anything.  What would happen if Jack had found out that they kissed and that she didn't leave after that?

[Wings]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

Nope.  If I were married, and my husband didn't want me going on a business trip with my ex because he still had the hots for me, and said ex kissed me, I would be so out of there.  My marriage is more important than anything.  What would happen if Jack had found out that they kissed and that she didn't leave after that?

They didn't kiss, he tried though.  It looked, to me, as if she was going to leave; she said "he was right" (Jack).  She was very agitated and wanted none of it.  She called Jack, probably to ask him to come and get her.  She looked very done, to me. 

[luna1122]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

Nope.  If I were married, and my husband didn't want me going on a business trip with my ex because he still had the hots for me, and said ex kissed me, I would be so out of there.  My marriage is more important than anything.  What would happen if Jack had found out that they kissed and that she didn't leave after that?

My relationship is the most important thing to me too, but she handled the situation, the guy knew where she stood, there was no ambiguity. I don't know, it just doesn't seem like that big a deal to me. She was right to tell Jack about it, she should have (tho I wonder if he'll tell her about the chick from the office putting the moves on him)  but I'm just not feeling that she had to bail on the whole thing just cuz her ex made a bad move. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, wings707 said:

They didn't kiss, he tried though.  It looked, to me, as if she was going to leave; she said "he was right" (Jack).  She was very agitated and wanted none of it.  She called Jack, probably to ask him to come and get her.  She looked very done, to me. 

He didn't "try" to kiss her.  He kissed her. His lips were on hers.  I'm not saying it was her fault, and I'm not saying she didn't push him away immediately, but they did kiss.

[VioletNevermind]

16 hours ago, Trooper York said:

What career? Singing covers in dive bars because the piano player wants to bang her?

No wonder her kids hate her. 

Thank you.  You summed up my feelings regarding Rebecca quite nicely.  Team Jack all the way.

[Crs97]

I thought she backed away before they kissed.  And if that means she has to quit the band, I hope Jack quit when the secretary made her pass at him.

[Calamity Jane]

45 minutes ago, UsernameFatigue said:

The year that Jack met Rebecca was 1972. (Because the kids were born in 1980 when Jack was 36, his father mentions that he is 28, and he was born in 1944). Also I think the letter Rebecca got was dated 1972. From what I read, the draft for men born in 1944 took place in 1969. How long were they expected to serve? Assuming he was drafted did he serve a year? Two? I agree with those that say the writers are to have us believe that meeting Rebecca saved Jack apparently from what could have been a life of crime. Not buying it, and I guess I am not the only one. 

I don't think 1969 could be right.  Men were subject to the draft as soon as they turned 18.  About 1969 or so the system changed to a lottery thing.  I was in college at that time, and until the lottery, you were granted an exemption for being in college.  I well remember seniors getting the letter from Selective Service.  My boyfriend at the time got a bad lottery number and was called up, but flunked the physical because of a back injury from trying to run the hurdles!  But men were drafted well before the age of 25!  That might even have been the cut-off age.  An awful lot of the men who died over there were really boys in their teens.  

[qtpye]

57 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I'm not really excited about watching Kate pursue singing. What does EVERYONE on TV have to do something "cool" and "artsy" for a living? I mean, I'm all for going for your dreams, but being a singer is a hard field to break into, and while Kate is good, she didn't sound super incredible enough to sustain a career. Someone has to love mergers and acquisitions too, even if it isn't as sexy.

I would love it in response to what she wanted to do, Kate had said she was going to be an actuary.  When Toby would look at her puzzled, she would respond "it was her passion to analyze risk".

I think people in show business (including writers and producers) have a resentment against us people who have less artsy jobs.  Our jobs can not be as meaningful and "practical or science jobs" must be so boring.

I remember when they used to make fun of Ross and Chandler on Friends, because their jobs were so uncool.  It was never mentioned that they both had the most financial stability of the group, until Chandler quit his job to go into advertising.

Edited March 15, 2017 by qtpye

[pennben]

10 minutes ago, Katy M said:

He didn't "try" to kiss her.  He kissed her. His lips were on hers.  I'm not saying it was her fault, and I'm not saying she didn't push him away immediately, but they did kiss.

Just rewatched the scene and there was no kiss. He went in for a kiss and she backed away before contact. Regardless, I felt she did everything right in that situation and it would have been a valid choice to stay, as I think she intended prior to the Jack fiasco. 

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, pennben said:

Just rewatched the scene and there was no kiss. He went in for a kiss and she backed away before contact. Regardless, I felt she did everything right in that situation and it would have been a valid choice to stay, as I think she intended prior to the Jack fiasco. 

OK, my bad then.  I thought there was actual contact.  Doesn't make that much difference, though. It's a bad idea to travel around for two weeks with an ex who wants to get in your pants, especially when your husband is already jealous of this specific man and your marriage is already on the rocks.

[Trooper York]

38 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Nope.  If I were married, and my husband didn't want me going on a business trip with my ex because he still had the hots for me, and said ex kissed me, I would be so out of there.  My marriage is more important than anything.  What would happen if Jack had found out that they kissed and that she didn't leave after that?

Why she would have told Jack that he was  not supporting her dreams...... that he should forget about the bullshit about being a better man than his father because her issues are the only thing that matters........and told him to leave the house that he paid for by giving up his dreams. Because in her mind nothing is her responsibility and she is owed it and Jack should shut up and do what she says.

Before he dies before his time.

No wonder her kids hate her.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Trooper York

[JudyObscure]

Did Jack say he was drafted?  I was thinking he probably enlisted which would have meant a four year term. (Drafted men served 2 years.)

[Granny58]

17 hours ago, Literata said:

The argument was uncomfortably realistic to watch. I cringed when Jack made fun of Rebecca's desire to sing. I know he was hurt, but that was pretty low.

The rest of the episode? Meh. 

well, he didn't make fun of her so much as was realistic and said it wasn't a career....because it's not.  He didn't say she couldn't sing and if (this fictional character - let't not forget) thinks that at 40 she's going to hit it big, then she needed to hear the truth.  Team Jack.  Oh, but I don't give Jack a pass for the aborted theft.  He would have done it if he hadn't been distracted...so that was bad.  Bad, Jack, Bad!

17 hours ago, Amethyst said:

Figured Randall was thinking about a baby when he was looking at the pictures, but it didn't dawn on me that he wanted to adopt.  Can't blame Beth for looking skeptical.  She's just getting back to work after maternity leave, and for all we know, she's doesn't want any more kids.  Not to mention her husband being newly unemployed.

Good chance for him to be the stay at home parent.  

Edited March 15, 2017 by Granny58

[OtterMommy]

21 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Did Jack say he was drafted?  I was thinking he probably enlisted which would have meant a four year term. (Drafted men served 2 years.)

No, they just said that he had been in Vietnam.  And, since he was a mechanic, I doubt he was drafted.  My father (again, also a mechanic) had been in the military several years before Vietnam and, by the time he went, he was well-trained in his job.  He did, however, work on airplanes, not trucks/tanks/etc, so it may have been slightly different.  Still, I wouldn't be surprised if Jack had been in the military before Vietnam and then was sent there as part of his service.  He was also, what? 28, here? That would also explain it.  If he enlisted right after school, he'd only be 22 (if he were drafted, he'd only be 20)--I got the feeling that he hadn't been back long.

[laurakaye]

1 hour ago, wings707 said:

They didn't kiss, he tried though.  It looked, to me, as if she was going to leave; she said "he was right" (Jack).  She was very agitated and wanted none of it.  She called Jack, probably to ask him to come and get her.  She looked very done, to me. 

I agree with this post, and I'm probably beating a detail to death here, but this is kind of indicative of why I struggle with this show so much.

Rebecca got hit on; she was enraged and immediately called Jack, and I absolutely thought that if he'd answered the phone, she would've said, "you were right, get me out of here."  He didn't answer, so to me that indicates that she was going to stay and perform.  Then Jack came in drunk and beat up the guy that made a pass at her, and that's when Rebecca decided to leave.  It confused me, because she seemed to be directing her anger at having to leave towards Jack's drunken brawl, not at the attempted kiss.  If she was that pissed at getting hit on, she could've grabbed her stuff and called a cab to get her out of there.  But she didn't.  Her actions and her anger don't make sense to me.  It's almost like Jack showing up gave her an excuse to not perform, and a reason to blame him for her misery.  Or something?  I don't know.  The show seems to be hell-bent on portraying Rebecca as a shrew, but it only leaves me really confused as to her motivations.  Her character doesn't seem to be fully sketched out, and 18 episodes in, I feel like we should know what makes these people tick.  And I honestly don't have a clue.

Edited March 15, 2017 by laurakaye

[ShadowFacts]

12 minutes ago, Granny58 said:

well, he didn't make fun of her so much as was realistic and said it wasn't a career....because it's not.  He didn't say she couldn't sing and if (this fictional character - let't not forget) thinks that at 40 she's going to hit it big, then she needed to hear the truth.  Team Jack.

I could be mis-remembering, but I think he said something like being 40 and singing covers in bars makes her not a singer but a loser.  That's mean as hell coming from a person who is supposed to love you.  I should look at that again.  I might have embellished the meanness in my mind.

[Trooper York]

He didn't call her a loser.

That job falls to us.

No wonder her children hate her.

[Literata]

17 minutes ago, Granny58 said:

well, he didn't make fun of her so much as was realistic and said it wasn't a career....because it's not.  He didn't say she couldn't sing and if (this fictional character - let't not forget) thinks that at 40 she's going to hit it big, then she needed to hear the truth.  

As someone who spent a few years as an at-home mom, if my husband had been dismissive of any hope I had to follow my dream, I would have reacted just as Rebecca did. Is hers a pipe dream? Maybe. But that wasn't for him to determine; she was only going to be gone for two weeks, which wasn't a major inconvenience to him or to the kids. I'm more partial to Jack, but that remark was a dick move on his part. 

[marceline]

I liked this episode a bit more than many I guess.  I was happy to see some of the shine come off Jack. He tries and he does a lot of good but the guy has got major issues stemming from his family of origin. Those are the kind of things that come out in an ugly way when you get your buttons pushed. The same is true for Rebecca. I was a little iffy on the tour but then when she told Jack what her day was like and how she had no life it really brought home to me how empty things are for her. This episode put them on more equal footing in my eyes.

That fight was amazing. It was that kind of nonstop going for the jugular because you just feel so attacked so you lash out with the kind of weapons you accumulate over years. Brutal but very well done. They both had good points and yet they both crossed the line. I loved the way it built up because Rebecca didn't want to talk about it in the car so that was basically a two hour drive just seething while Jack sobers up. Of course it would pop off when they got home.

I have to admit that I'm not all hung up on "How Jack Died." I'm kind of sorry it's become such a thing.

Edited March 15, 2017 by marceline

[Granny58]

14 hours ago, Pallas said:

Our culture has a mother issue. A "bad father" is usually judged as such because he is a bad man, in the world as well as in the home. A "bad mother" is often judged for the sins of the father or the failures and frustrations of her children; a "bad mother" is seen as worse than a bad man. As a culture, beyond sentiment, we suspect mothers for giving more than they take, and fear their wrath; we resent mothers for protecting us, or allowing us to come to harm, and are repelled by their anxiety; we hate mothers for our own feelings about mothers.

I was unaware of all of this.  I adore my mom.  She's the best. 

[Cardie]

16 hours ago, Pallas said:

I think Jack does take Rebecca's contribution seriously -- perhaps too seriously; he sees motherhood as Rebecca's sole identity as well as her vocation. It's her sacrifice that he doesn't see as on a par with his own.

Yes, absolutely.

[Granny58]

5 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Vietnam veterans did have education benefits available.  I wondered why he wasn't doing something like at least part-time college.  I was a little annoyed by the way they showed him counting his meager earnings in the attic, overdoing the point of how he was getting desperate to realize his dream of an auto shop.  A decent, motivated guy like him would probably be in school, unless he had been a really poor high school student, I suppose.  He was 28, not a kid, and I found it a little hard to swallow that he was willing to pull off a robbery of a mafia-connected business. 

A decent motivated mechanic (didn't he say he did that in the military) should have easily been able to get a job AND learn about the type of business he wanted to buy!

[Wings]

10 minutes ago, laurakaye said:

I agree with this post, and I'm probably beating a detail to death here, but this is kind of indicative of why I struggle with this show so much.

Rebecca got hit on; she was enraged and immediately called Jack, and I absolutely thought that if he'd answered the phone, she would've said, "you were right, get me out of here."  He didn't answer, so to me that indicates that she was going to stay and perform.  Then Jack came in drunk and beat up the guy that made a pass at her, and that's when Rebecca decided to leave.  It confused me, because she seemed to be directing her anger at having to leave towards Jack's drunken brawl, not at the attempted kiss.  If she was that pissed at getting hit on, she could've grabbed her stuff and called a cab to get her out of there.  But she didn't.  Her actions and her anger don't make sense to me.  It's almost like Jack showing up gave her an excuse to not perform, and a reason to blame him for her misery.  Or something?  I don't know.  The show seems to be hell-bent on portraying Rebecca as a shrew, but it only leaves me really confused as to her motivations.  Her character doesn't seem to be fully sketched out, and 18 episodes in, I feel like we should know what makes these people tick.  And I honestly don't have a clue.

She saw Jack before she could take any action, is what I got.  I understand why her anger shifted toward Jack.  She was still angry her ex came onto her but her husbands behavior took over the situation.  

She had just left a message telling him how much she loved him.  She was ready to can her "career" and go back home to her kids and husband.  She talked about belonging with her family when she saw the size of the crowd.  It was clear she had already made the decision that this on the road stuff was not for her before he tried to kiss her. 

[Cardie]

14 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

That would actually be interesting, and something that really hasn't been done too often, Mr. Mom notwithstanding. I sure as hell hope Beth reminds Randall that she's not interested in being a full-time stay at home mother to a baby all over again.

And he could get childcare tips from reruns of The Manny! Seriously, though, I'm wondering if they might not go for an older child. I'm fairly sure it will be a boy.

[elle]

It just occurred to me that Jack's drinking that he stopped cold turkey happened "7 years ago".  That would mean he was drinking to where it became a problem when the kids were 9 years old (based on the kids being 16 in the flashback).  Had he been drinking heavily since they were born?  Did something happen that his drinking increased and then something made him snap to and quit?

[Ripley68]

Just because they show how Jack died doesn't mean that is the end of the role.  William's role is pretty much over because we saw all his interactions with Randall and family - and his main importance was in the present.  All of Jacks importance and interactions are in the past. As many of you have said, we haven't seen 7 years of their lives together, and just sporadic times as a family.  The question of his death is not the reason I watch this show.  I wish they would just address the elephant in the room and move on.

I think its kind of nice that the Dad is the non-jerk for a change. In so many dramas, the Dad is the huge problem. Now, it does sound like he was absent most of the week, which they could delve into later. They'll just have to be careful so the kids don't see anything as their younger selves that would totally change what we know their adult opinions are.

[ShadowFacts]

15 minutes ago, Trooper York said:

He didn't call her a loser.

That job falls to us.

No wonder her children hate her.

You are right, my bad.  I confabulated that.  He said "that is not a career, Rebecca, that is ridiculous."  Not a loser, but ridiculous.

[Trooper York]

I totally disagree that she was willing to ditch her "career" and go back to her husband and children. That was not in the cards. She was going to do this no matter what. Obviously this nonsense was more important than her marriage and her family. She knew that it was going to be a big problem. Jack was proved to be right. Again. She was going to do the happy hour open mike at the Blarney Stone come hell or high water.

Now she fully transform herself into a bitter shrew who could go back to her old habits.....ignoring Kevin......fat shaming Kate.....and keeping Randall from his birth father. Yeah she's a peach.

No wonder her kids hate her.

[Granny58]

2 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

My personal pet peeve and maybe this is a UO, but I hate card game scenes on TV.  They are generally as dull as dust, just as this one.  I kept looking at my watch, waiting for it to end.  And, yeah, I knew before the card game started that Jack was going get beat up when he left. **Because that is how all such scenes go.**

Yeah, not just you.  It was agonizing.  

[Trooper York]

I have actually played in some of those types of games and they never would have been let in to play unless they had a lot more scratch before they even sat down. What was really bogus about the whole thing is that Jack's friend never showed any cash at all. At least that I remember. It was an obvious plot contrivance and just poor writing. 

Which I can forgive because the mooks who wrote this probably never in a card game except when they used to play Go Fish with their granny.

No wonder they hate the Mafia guys who run the card games that they were never let into play.