S05.E15: Fighting Fire With Fire

[Delphi]

 Guys I haven't even watched this episode and I'm already cringing so,  thanks for all of your hard work.   This episode sounds like a shitshow.  

Is there enough Felicity and Thea to even bother with it?

[WaitandHope]

This show is now terrible.  It makes me sad.  I used to excitedly anticipate episodes and now this...  I tuned in last night after a self-imposed sabbatical, and it was as soul-sucking as I believed it would be.  I did like the Felicity-Diggle scenes.  They required a complete suspension of all canonical knowledge of the show to NOW question whether they would use information learned about people through Felicity's hacking to be off limits, but I still like EBR and DR - and, for the most part, their characters. 

Why would they take everything the fans loved about the show (or even loved to hate about the show) and smash it to smithereens?  This reporter lady is the worst.  Curtis's story is sad -- not enjoyably sad, just pathetic sad.  Wild Dog is pointless.  Good Lord with the Dinah character.  It's like they really do believe women are simply interchangeable.  Thea is a walking shell of her former self.  Quentin too.  And Oliver has now become too dumb for words -- both with his new "friend" and his new "girlfriend."  Oliver is the live-action Charlie Brown who keeps trying to kick the football.   My 10-year can't figure out who's dumber: Oliver or Barry?  They are in a competition every week. 

My KIDS have given up on this show because the protagonist is too stupid.  That should tell us all something. 

[Starfish35]

From one of the interviews with JH posted before the episode aired:

Quote

Pay attention this week, because Harkavy says her favorite line of the season is in it. “I can’t really say anything about it, but when I read it in the script, I was like, ‘Oh, that is so bad ass!’ The way that she’s written is just so cool!”

So what was this?  Sounds like Dinah didn't have much to do this episode, so when was she spouting "badass" lines?

[way2interested]

Just now, Starfish35 said:

So what was this?  Sounds like Dinah didn't have much to do this episode, so when was she spouting "badass" lines?

The "Good Woman" line?

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

From one of the interviews with JH posted before the episode aired:

So what was this?  Sounds like Dinah didn't have much to do this episode, so when was she spouting "badass" lines?

I think it's in the Vigilante scene when she gets out of the car and he says "Good man," and she replies "Good woman."

[tennisgurl]

Felicity, I cant believe I'm saying this, but, maybe it time to give Ray a call? I know I hated them as a couple, and I know he's currently traveling through time, but he isn't a stalker asshole anymore! You guys could make long distance work! Or, better yet, join the Legends team! They're more fun anyway. Anything is better than the poor woman being stuck in Star City, with her ex fiancé asking her for help hooking him back up with his boring, stupid girlfriend, and being lectured by her friends in the most condescending manner possible about how pure and good she has to be. That's a lot of pressure to put on a person! The Legends crew wont care if your good and pure! They give no fucks!

Speaking of giving no fucks, Susan. Oh my God yall, Susan's been kidnapped! Oh my God yall, I don't care! Even a little bit! I don't buy at all that she secretly liked Oliver this whole time and would have kept his secret even if she didn't get set up. She was planning on exposing him up until she lost her job. And, even if she did somehow actually fall for Oliver, she's still boring, and her and Oliver have zero chemistry or connection. Her only personality trait seems to be "shady", and now that's apparently gone, so what do we have now? Women who makes Oliver act like a total moron? Damsel for Oliver to save? Now there's a riveting character right there. Seriously, I have no clue why Oliver is so invested in this relationship. They've been together for like two weeks. But now, he's willing to do all this for her? Whatever, show.

Now Thea is gone? But we get more Susan in the future, maybe? Oh joy of my life. I will say, I think the Chase twist is actually pretty decent. I didn't exactly see it coming, but its not really that shocking now that we know. I'm interested in where he's going with his vendetta against Oliver. It seems like its some combination of revenge, and some kind of fatal attraction style villain crush. I'm just saying, those two have a decent amount of chemistry, and he spent this whole episode giving Oliver heart eyes, and he is PRETTY obsessed with him. Maybe he kidnapped Susan because she was in the way of their love? What, at least its something!

On the plus side, I do actually like Dinah alright. I don't love her or anything, she's pretty pointless, but she doesn't bother me like I thought she would, and I think the actress is pretty good. They give her lots of lame tough girl dialogue, but I still think she does pretty well with it. Also, Paul is a huge asshole. I didn't really blame him for dumping Curtis, but dumping him at what he thought was a date, and then just leaving after giving him the papers, was just a huge dick move.

How have we gotten to the point where the freaking flashbacks are the highlight of the episode? Yeah its pointless and shoehorned into fitting into what's going on in the A plot, but at least its interesting, Oliver is basically competent, and is still being a good friend to Anatoly. I am a million times more invested in their friendship than in his stupid not romance with Susan, which he seems to prioritize over all his over relationships, and his speeches to the newbies. Can Anatoly make a quick trip from Russia to tell Oliver that he's being a moron and he needs to get his shit together? Please?!

Edited March 2, 2017 by tennisgurl

[bijoux]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

No, they looked at the  divorce documents and found that the ex-wife had cited an illegitimate child.  That's why I wonder about Chase's relationship with his father.

Oh, wow. That's how that played? I thought Claybourne lost the custody to his legitimate kid in the divorce.

4 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Seems to me that Dinah was playing for time at a workstation that was near the Vigilante visor fragment to find the right time to snatch it. Not the best or most subtle way to get it, but it was what it was.

Could be wrong, but Dinah has not worked all that much with GA in Star City. Her introduction was in Central City, then they went into Russia...can't remember her doing much in Star City proper. Also, her power is not all that unique. Laurel used a device to simulate it. Sonic Siren (or wtf Earth 2 Laurel is called) had it and did appear in Star City and wreaked havoc. So given that the police department seem unable to have put two and two together to figure out Ollie is the Green Arrow (or that the Arrow and Green Arrow are the same guy), not sure why anyone would worry that Dinah's use of the sonic scream that (as far as we know) was not witnessed by anyone but Vigilante) would out her.

She hung out with him and SCPD last week when they captured China White, Lady Cop and Cupid. It's a moot point, they don't see what they don't want to see. 

[Morena]

i read this review about 5x15 and wanted to share

http://oliverdant.tumblr.com/post/157916150663/episode-15

[tv echo]

I was looking for this quote from The Dark Knight for my above review, so posting here as an addendum...

Gordon: "He's the hero Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll hunt him. Because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent guardian. A watchful protector. A Dark Knight."

Edited March 2, 2017 by tv echo

[blackwing]

I find it amazing that TPTB could even think that the majority of viewers give a crap about Susan.  I thought we had gotten rid of her last episode, now she's back and even more entrenched in the storyline.  Aargh.  She knows about his "secret" so I can only hope that she is going to die.

Did not see at all that Chase is Prometheus, especially considering that in the comics he is Vigilante.  So who is Vigilante?  I thought maybe it was Tommy back from the dead, but the actor is on Chicago Med or one of those many medical shows.  Maybe Roy is Vigilante?

This season has been crap.  This used to be one of my "must see" shows, and between Reporter, Wild Dung, and Mr. Not So Terrific, it has really become the pits.  Why can't Thea suit up again?  Why can't Nyssa come back?  Why replace cool people with awful people?  So frustrating.  Especially since it looks like Curtis' role is going to get even bigger now that he invented those stupid "do anything and everything" mechanical balls.

[HunterHunted]

2 hours ago, tv echo said:

I hated this episode and I hated Oliver in this episode. Oliver is now too stupid and too self-centered to be the hero of this story. 

In addition to being a Dark Knight rip-off, it was completely unnecessary for Oliver to throw his GA alter ego under the bus. Did I miss something, or wasn't Malone's body found still dressed up like Prometheus, with the voice box strapped to his chest and his mouth/arms taped?  So wouldn't that evidence plus forensics support the GA's claim that he was manipulated by Prometheus into killing Malone?  Therefore, couldn't Oliver simply have told the truth (that the GA was set up by Prometheus), rather than lying and saying that the GA went rogue and murdered Malone?  As for the cover-up, he could've used a similar excuse to the one he used, or he could've just said that they needed to keep the truth a secret temporarily while they attempted to draw out Prometheus.  But once again, Oliver jeopardized not just himself, but also his team - since they will also be hunted by the police.

In this episode, Oliver seemed less concerned about protecting his secret identity than  getting Susan back as his f**k buddy (after she gets her job back, look at what he's primarily concerned about - not whether she'll keep his secret, but whether they're still dating). He was amazingly nonchalant about the possibility of Susan exposing his secret. And he has yet to question the fact that she was collecting info for an expose on him while she was sleeping with him (remember, she was the one who pursued a relationship with him).  And I don't get her motivation at all. She'll keep his secret now because her reputation's been restored and she's again dating Oliver? What if he dumps her? The writers even threw in another character (like they are wont to do) to justify Oliver's actions, in this case, the doctor.  So I guess Oliver is willing to kill repeatedly to keep his GA persona a secret (even as recent as 501, "no one can know my secret"), except when it comes to a woman he's slept with (Susan, Samantha) - then, he'll go out of his way to give her what she wants, even at the expense of those closest to him and who've stood by him for years.

I hated the scene at the end where Oliver "thanks" his team for saving him, after he basically made the decision on his own to put them all in greater jeopardy.  Oliver's good with saying the pretty words, but his actions should be what matter.

Then this episode ended in a cliffhanger threatening... Susan. Who cares? Is this supposed to make me want to return in 2 weeks to see what happens to her? Are we really supposed to believe that she really cares for Oliver, or that Oliver really cares for her?  If so, then SA and CP are doing the worst acting job in the history of TV.

For me, Oliver's repellent behavior completely overshadowed the "shocking" reveal that Adrian Chase is Prometheus and any of the few good moments in this episode.

ETA: Just want to add that Oliver was a terrible mayor last fall and Thea was doing all of his work (without getting any credit or acknowledgment). Now, because of something Human Target (posing as Oliver) took care of, and some mythical gun legislation, Oliver's apparently now the greatest mayor ever.

Do the police have the ability to discern the difference between the Green Arrow's, Merlyn's, Cupid's arrows, or any of the other archers who seem to ramble through town based on trace elements? We know that they were running DNA tests in the Arrow Cave to figure out that Prometheus was targeting Oliver, but the police seem to have no clue about that aspect of Prometheus' killings. Even if the wound pattern was consistent with Oliver's arrows, Billy was still discovered dressed like Prometheus. There really wasn't any reason for a cover up because it could be reasonably inferred that the Green Arrow was tricked. Additionally, it can't be said enough that people are constantly getting shot by arrows in this city. It's like Sunnydale's spontaneous neck bleeding problem.

Now Susan decides to keep his secret because she has her job back. If anything,  that should worry him more. She was ready to spill before. Now that his people have ruined and then fixed her life, he's got to realize that she's not spilling because of a mutually assured destruction situation not because of any real feelings on her part. 

Considering that both the DA and the mayor were implicated, I don't know that Adrian could represent Oliver. There really should have been a series of interviews or depositions by independent counsel, a special master, or a special prosecutor before they ever got to an impeachment hearing. And actually would have worked better if it had been drawn out. We could have started the season with Oliver's fight with Darhk inspiring others to hero and then the following happens:

• Wild Dog being reckless and dangerous, but refusing Oliver's help and training;
• Artemis joining and ultimately betraying Oliver;
• Prometheus coming for Oliver as mayor and the Green Arrow;
• Thea going dark;
• Felicity working with her hacktivist group; and
• Susan lying to Oliver for her investigation.

But ultimately when it looks like Oliver is on the ropes and Prometheus is going to be successful in beating and breaking Oliver that his unwillingness to stop fighting, to be better appeals to Curtis, Wild Dog, Dinah, Rory, Felicity, Thea, and Quentin and they rescue him. That they are the ones who stop Prometheus and Vigilante. It's sort of the rehash of the lesson learned at the end of season 4, but this time it would actually bear fruit with actual heroes who could stand in his stead if Oliver isn't capable of being the Green Arrow. Plus Prometheus' rage and vendetta serves as counterpoint and warning for those like Wild Dog, Dinan, and Rory who started heroing out of vengeance.

[statsgirl]

1 hour ago, Morena said:

i read this review about 5x15 and wanted to share

http://oliverdant.tumblr.com/post/157916150663/episode-15

I'm not on tumblr so I couldn't comment at the review site.  Basically, if I understand her argument, this episode is proof that Susan is a temporary love interest and the show will swerve back to Oliver/Felicity at the end.  But I never doubted that the show would end with Oliver/Felicity. Or at least I only doubted a little (since 100% is the hat eating level).  But:

Quote

What I do want to say – to emphasise – is how alone Felicity was.

Now I’d like to stop you before you all go off on the rampage because, as much as I understand why, this was also deliberate. This episode was the point where Felicity didn’t just feel alone, she was alone. They deliberately had everyone miss this about her: Dig who knew her better than most and Oliver who knows her best of all… even Thea.

No one saw it.

They even had Oliver come to ask for her help with Susan.

In her head, she has nothing.

So she turns to Helix.

This is the problem, combined with how hard Oliver is fighting for his relationship with Susan. Oliver is putting being with Susan above everything including his relationships with Thea and Felicity.

Right now, I see an Oliver who doesn't give two fucks about Felicity.  Not if she's hurting, not if she's still affected by the fact that he killed her boyfriend.  All he wants is to get back to banging Susan and he's going to use Felicity to get there without any thought to how Felicity feels or how it's going to affect her morally.

So right now  the last thing I"m worried about is whether Oliver is going to get back with Felicity or not.  Because the Oliver in this episode?  I don't want him anywhere near Felicity at all.  He's been re-set not just to season 1 Oliver but to pre-island Oliver.

Edited March 2, 2017 by statsgirl

[Midnight Lullaby]

2 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I'm not on tumblr so I couldn't comment at the review site.  Basically, if I understand her argument, this episode is proof that Susan is a temporary love interest and the show will swerve back to Oliver/Felicity at the end.  But I never doubted that the show would end with Oliver/Felicity. Or at least I only doubted a little (since 100% is the hat eating level).  But:

This is the problem, combined with how hard Oliver is fighting for his relationship with Susan. Oliver is putting being with Susan above everything including his relationships with Thea and Felicity.

Right now, I see an Oliver who doesn't give two fucks about Felicity.  Not if she's hurting, not if she's still affected by the fact that he killed her boyfriend.  All he wants is to get back to banging Susan and he's going to use Felicity to get there.

So right now  the last thing I"m worried about is whether Oliver is going to get back with Felicity or not.  Because the Oliver in this episode?  I don't want him anywhere near Felicity at all.  He's been re-set not just to season 1 Oliver but to pre-island Oliver.

Pretty much this. It's ironic how the same things that make me not ship the couple for others are signs that they are meant to be. And I know that Oliver would be better off with Felicity that genuinely cares about him than in the pseudo relationship he is trying to keep afloat but I can't currently see how Oliver is good for Felicity.

[Mellowyellow]

If the Chair shippers can get over Chuck sleeping with Jenny and Blair going to his apartment we can survive this guys!!!!!

We'll just block it out!

[Morena]

5 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I'm not on tumblr so I couldn't comment at the review site.  Basically, if I understand her argument, this episode is proof that Susan is a temporary love interest and the show will swerve back to Oliver/Felicity at the end.  But I never doubted that the show would end with Oliver/Felicity. Or at least I only doubted a little (since 100% is the hat eating level).  But:

This is the problem, combined with how hard Oliver is fighting for his relationship with Susan. Oliver is putting being with Susan above everything including his relationships with Thea and Felicity.

Right now, I see an Oliver who doesn't give two fucks about Felicity.  Not if she's hurting, not if she's still affected by the fact that he killed her boyfriend.  All he wants is to get back to banging Susan and he's going to use Felicity to get there.

So right now  the last thing I"m worried about is whether Oliver is going to get back with Felicity or not.  Because the Oliver in this episode?  I don't want him anywhere near Felicity at all.  He's been re-set not just to season 1 Oliver but to pre-island Oliver.

I posted because I find it interesting how some perceive certain scenes, episodes. Not that I agree with the review. Because as you, at that moment, I want Oliver away from Felicity, until he is back to being someone I might like. he doesn't deserve her

I hate that Oliver went to Felicity for help with Snoozen.  I want to say fuck off and slap him.

[GHScorpiosRule]

6 minutes ago, Morena said:

I hate that Oliver went to Felicity for help with Snoozen.  I want to say fuck off and slap him.

I wish Felicity had told Oliver to "KISS.MY.ASS."

[Cthulhudrew]

20 hours ago, RogerDodger said:

1) I would have sworn that at some point this season we had seen scenes of Chase and scenes of Prometheus occurring at the same time, making it impossible for them to be the same.

My working theory is that the Vigilante identity is a shared one between Prometheus and his agent Evelyn, to help sow discord. They've both argued about who gets to have revenge on Oliver before (like Prometheus and Vigilante did this episode), and I thought I noted the stunt double playing Vigilante seemed more feminine this episode than previously. Plus, we haven't seen Evelyn in quite some time. 

I did go back and check, and Evelyn and Vigilante have definitely been in scenes together. If I'm correct, it would also mean that they weren't entirely swerving when they revealed Chase as Prometheus rather than Vigilante- because he is both.

EDIT: As Fred VII would say, "The great thing about this armor is that it could be anyone underneath this mask!"

Edited March 3, 2017 by Cthulhudrew

[Chyromaniac]

So, which is the less believable revelation: that the Michael Dorn*-voiced Prometheus is actually Josh Segarra, or that the Tony Todd-voiced Zoom turned out to be Teddy Sears?

(*I don't think it's been confirmed anywhere, but Prometheus totally sounds like Worf*)

5 hours ago, tv echo said:

Did I miss something, or wasn't Malone's body found still dressed up like Prometheus, with the voice box strapped to his chest and his mouth/arms taped?  So wouldn't that evidence plus forensics support the GA's claim that he was manipulated by Prometheus into killing Malone?  Therefore, couldn't Oliver simply have told the truth (that the GA was set up by Prometheus), rather than lying and saying that the GA went rogue and murdered Malone?  As for the cover-up, he could've used a similar excuse to the one he used, or he could've just said that they needed to keep the truth a secret temporarily while they attempted to draw out Prometheus.  But once again, Oliver jeopardized not just himself, but also his team - since they will also be hunted by the police.

I really don't remember if this is true or not - but did they say this week that the cover-up was Chase's idea?  If that the case, then you could make an argument that he suggested that as part of his grand scheme to discredit Green Arrow.  This doesn't make Oliver any less stupid for going along with the plan - seriously, everyone who has been told the actual truth has believed it - but in light of the Chase-as-Prometheus revelation, it would kinda make sense for him to set up Billy's death, then use it to hurt Oliver.

Just for fun, here's an almost-certain-to-be-wrong batcrap crazy theory I had while watching the show:

What if the Adrian Chase that Oliver knows, the one that is Prometheus, is actually a secretly evil Human Target - and Vigilante is the real Chase?

Edited March 3, 2017 by Chyromaniac

[Delphi]

Ugh.   That was awful.   That was the worst.   That might have been the most horrible thing I have ever watched.   

First Thea,  I love you, don't go.   I wish this show was about you.   I'd much rather watch you dealing with blood lust and fighting crime than watch your brother be an idiot.  Love you forever baby Moira.

Felicity,  do you,  don't join sketchy hacker groups,  hack with friends.   Also you,  as always but especially as of this episode deserve better than Ollie.  Also thanks for mentioning my Roy.  But you forgot Sara.   

Dig,  stop judging Felicity.   You are all criminals,  just because she's the least criminal criminal doesn't make her some sort of ascended being. 

Since Chase reminded me so much of Kevin Alejandro I knew he was going to end up being evil,  but that still worked.  And feel free to kill Susan, she's the worst.  

[BunsenBurner]

I think that Chase was testing Dinah when he asked for the piece of the Vigilante's helmet . All of a sudden Oliver has a body guard who just became a police officer, why? He put the piece where he could see it and she took it. He now knows she is working for Oliver.

Is Oliver working a long game on everyone?  Did the Human Target or someone tell him that he was being targeted and he put all his "superb strategic brain" in use to save everyone and only allow Prometheus ruin him? Of course this was all behind the scene.

Is Susan the daughter, niece, friend of close family member of Anatoly or the Dolph Lundren character? Did she come to the US to find out and destroy OQ for destroying her family member? Or is she actually working in tandem with Prometheus? Or since we know that Talia is a lot older than she looks is she her daughter? I don't think she is just a reporter because she is a lousy one.

Thea has finally come into her own and she has to leave? Sad.

Helix is probably fronted by Prometheus but I wonder if it is separate from Oliver's story. Is he the illegitimate son of Carter Bowen's father and is actually smarter than Carter? I just don't think that he is that brilliant. Why doesn't Oliver know him or even recognize him?

Are the writers pissed that the Felicity character and EBR gets more mentions in the media than the GA/SA? I can't figure out why they do such an awful job of writing for the character. I think in the eyes of many critics and fans she is the star of the show and the writers are unhappy she gets most of the credit for actually getting the show to the 5th season as well as making the first season watchable.

This episode was a train wreck and it just felt like they dumped everything that they were angry about and just gave up. The anticlimactic scene of Prometheus' reveal felt like they were saying we give up we have screwed everything up. We give up.

I don't know but the writers are absolutely doing an even more terrible job of writing this season than the last 4 seasons combined.

Edited March 3, 2017 by BunsenBurner

[BkWurm1]

On 3/1/2017 at 8:32 PM, apinknightmare said:

I hope the payoff of spending 12 episodes setting Susan up as a shady asshole when she wasn't and we ultimately had no reason to think she would be was worth making Oliver look like the biggest fool alive.

I don't have a clue what the show runners and writers thought they were doing with Susan.  They had to know that even if Oliver liked and trusted her all of that would be negated with the audience since we the audience were the ones that knew she was actively investigating him.  Add in a few other characters whose judgement was mirroring what the audience knew and felt and of course they were setting Oliver up to look stupid for believing in Susan.  I wonder if it's MG and his gotcha moment again.  He wanted so badly it to be a surprise that Susan wouldn't betray Oliver (at least so far) that he wrote her with every indication that she would?

So yeah, the show runners have to know as they were writing her that they were writing her to be hated.  What I don't get is how that works now in favor of their plot.  

On 3/1/2017 at 8:51 PM, Soulfire said:

 

 

 

 

 

Can't help but feel this was very meta.  

15 hours ago, LeighAn said:

I think the writers want us to believe that Dinah is both a cop, part of the mayors personal protection detail and a vigilante, because basically she's just an extra with lines and they need to justify her existence somehow but only want to put minutes of thought into her character.

Honestly, I'm ok with that.  Right now at least the show keeps on NOT doing the thing I'm worried they would do with her.  Stuff that seems telegraphed even in the episode.  

15 hours ago, tangerine95 said:

I think the reason Felicity isn't really responding to either Digg's or Oliver's pep talks is exactly because they're holding her to a higher standard and acting like she can't possibly be going through a dark time, that she's too good for that. I mean that approach clearly hasn't worked since everytime someone says that she just decides to go deeper into the helix stuff. Hopefully the thing that will help her will be the people around her taking her more seriously and accepting that like everyone she's capable of having a dark side and doing morally questionable things. 

I also think that Diggle doesn't get why Felicity is involved with Helix.  He rattled on about empathy being her superpower and that since Billy died she's lost a lot of hers, but that's actually not true.  She's more worried about helping and saving others since Billy died.  That's why she's more willing to risk doing morally questionable things because the end result matters more to her.  The very reason she's turned to Helix now is because she feels she needs to be able to do more to be ready to back up and help Oliver, her team and anyone else that needs help.  I agree that she is isolated and alone but she's turning to Helix because she wants to be able to do more to help others and more to safeguard those she cares about, not that she cares less.  

11 hours ago, johntfs said:

The Adrian Chase reveal was really interesting.  I notice now that Chase keeps throwing these little tests at Oliver.  "I'll resign."  "Throw me under the bus."  "We can dirty up Malone."  I think Prometheus is getting a little confused and angry at how the guy who murdered his father is a pretty decent human being.  It's screwing with the story he's told himself.

Also, about the "data" from the mom, Jesus Christ how hard is that?  She had a child.  She almost certainly went to a hospital to have that child.  Just check her fucking medical records and go from there.

I can't help wonder at the amount of data that Felicity gathered from tapping the mom's files.  It's a huge number that doesn't make sense for an average person.  Is SHE connected to Helix?  If there are strings pulling Prometheus, could they be apron strings?  

6 hours ago, statsgirl said:

I'm not on tumblr so I couldn't comment at the review site.  Basically, if I understand her argument, this episode is proof that Susan is a temporary love interest and the show will swerve back to Oliver/Felicity at the end.  But I never doubted that the show would end with Oliver/Felicity. Or at least I only doubted a little (since 100% is the hat eating level).  But:

This is the problem, combined with how hard Oliver is fighting for his relationship with Susan. Oliver is putting being with Susan above everything including his relationships with Thea and Felicity.

Right now, I see an Oliver who doesn't give two fucks about Felicity.  Not if she's hurting, not if she's still affected by the fact that he killed her boyfriend.  All he wants is to get back to banging Susan and he's going to use Felicity to get there without any thought to how Felicity feels or how it's going to affect her morally.

 

I do think Oliver pushing Felicity to fix the problem of Susan not returning his calls came off really bad.  I agree, it sounded like he wanted Felicity to act as his secretary and get her on the line but instead it was him asking her to fix Susan's reputation.  Which if he had actually just staid that I think would have come off much better since Felicity doesn't seem to agree with the lengths that Thea went to discredit Susan.  So yeah, it's not completely unreasonable to ask Felicity to work her magic and make that go away since even if Felicity didn't know where Thea was going with her plan, she was a part of it's execution.  

But they didn't phrase it like Oliver asking Felicity to make it right like he did with Thea.  Which makes me wonder if the writers chose the more offensive phrasing on purpose so that Felicity could express her unhappiness and reluctance with helping him with his girlfriend.  

[ComicFan777]

I think when Dig thought that Felicity lost some of her empathy, I took it to mean that she lost her empathy for the ones that they hurt - the people they hurt/threaten to get what they need to save people - it doesn't matter how they do it anymore as long as they get what they need to save people.  

It makes me think of when Felicity first joined the team and told Oliver that one guy had a kid and she wasn't interested in orphaning people, and when Oliver had mentioned on their date that he saw targets instead of people until he met her.  

I think that because Felicity is so scared of losing those that she cares about, she is starting to see other people (the ones that the team hunts down) more like targets as Oliver once did - she's lost her empathy for them.  The reason why I would think this is what Dig might have meant is because of her reactions in the bratva episode where Rory thought that she came across as very cold/scary/callous when she threatened the guy and how she didn't react like Oliver expected her to when she found out that Dig physically tortured the guy for info, as well as her reaction to blackmailing the politician about his wife's death.

Edited March 3, 2017 by ComicFan777

[Hiveminder]

1 hour ago, ComicFan777 said:

I think when Dig thought that Felicity lost some of her empathy, I took it to mean that she lost her empathy for the ones that they hurt - the people they hurt/threaten to get what they need to save people - it doesn't matter how they do it anymore as long as they get what they need to save people.  

It makes me think of when Felicity first joined the team and told Oliver that one guy had a kid and she wasn't interested in orphaning people, and when Oliver had mentioned on their date that he saw targets instead of people until he met her.  

I think that because Felicity is so scared of losing those that she cares about, she is starting to see other people (the ones that the team hunts down) more like targets as Oliver once did - she's lost her empathy for them.  The reason why I would think this is what Dig might have meant is because of her reactions in the bratva episode where Rory thought that she came across as very cold/scary/callous when she threatened the guy and how she didn't react like Oliver expected her to when she found out that Dig physically tortured the guy for info, as well as her reaction to blackmailing the politician about his wife's death.

I think that's exactly it, and it's a valid thing for Digg to be concerned about. The delivery, by Digg and by the show itself, might not be doing enough to make that clear, and the viewers' general discontent with the show right now might be making it difficult for some people to recognize those moments when the show does make that clear. 

[tv echo]

Video clips that include some Felicity scenes in 515 (videos posted by Arrow on youtube)...

Oliver asks Felicity to help fix his love-life problem with Susan:

Felicity tells Diggle about Pandora:

Thea asks Felicity to help find blackmail dirt on Councilman Collins:

Diggle tells Felicity that her superpower is empathy:

Felicity meets with her Helix contact:

Edited March 3, 2017 by tv echo

[DeadZeus]

21 hours ago, johntfs said:

The Adrian Chase reveal was really interesting.  I notice now that Chase keeps throwing these little tests at Oliver.  "I'll resign."  "Throw me under the bus."  "We can dirty up Malone."  I think Prometheus is getting a little confused and angry at how the guy who murdered his father is a pretty decent human being.  It's screwing with the story he's told himself.

I want this to be the case so bad.. Just like Felicity didn't turn on Oliver with Malone's death and didn't blame him at all. I want Prometheus to realise he's kinda failing at this plan in some regards. But i don't think the writers are competent enough to have the story go this way and actually let Oliver win psychologicly...

But SA's twitter indicates Prometheus is succeeding with his plan.

[statsgirl]

It will work with Susan because she's so superficial anyway. She's only in it for what she can get from Oliver-- info, mayor's girlfriend status, whatever -- so she'll be easier to turn than Felicity was.

[Midnight Lullaby]

Honestly if I were kidnapped and the crazy guy told me to live I had to write about the mayor being the city's vigilante and a Bratva captain I'd do it too. Susan is in the wrong in my eyes because all I saw was her trying to advance her career by any means necessary but if it was an ethical reporter finding out all she found out about Oliver I'd be conflicted about what was right. Because on one hand keeping the secret is important to keep people that are trying to do good safe but I don't know if it's more important than the life of an innocent person that was just doing her job. The problem is Susan is horrible so the writers failed to make this story interesting to me, LOL.

[Chicago Redshirt]

38 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

Do the police have the ability to discern the difference between the Green Arrow's, Merlyn's, Cupid's arrows, or any of the other archers who seem to ramble through town based on trace elements? We know that they were running DNA tests in the Arrow Cave to figure out that Prometheus was targeting Oliver, but the police seem to have no clue about that aspect of Prometheus' killings. Even if the wound pattern was consistent with Oliver's arrows, Billy was still discovered dressed like Prometheus. There really wasn't any reason for a cover up because it could be reasonably inferred that the Green Arrow was tricked. Additionally, it can't be said enough that people are constantly getting shot by arrows in this city. It's like Sunnydale's spontaneous neck bleeding problem.

Now Susan decides to keep his secret because she has her job back. If anything,  that should worry him more. She was ready to spill before. Now that his people have ruined and then fixed her life, he's got to realize that she's not spilling because of a mutually assured destruction situation not because of any real feelings on her part. 

Considering that both the DA and the mayor were implicated, I don't know that Adrian could represent Oliver. There really should have been a series of interviews or depositions by independent counsel, a special master, or a special prosecutor before they ever got to an impeachment hearing.

In an earlier episode, the cop said something about how the wound on Malone matched Green Arrow's arrows. They undoubtedly have like plenty of points of comparison. How many people would we say Ollie has shot since his return to Star City? Gotta be up in the thousands by now. 

Re: Susan: it's possible that she does have real feelings for Ollie. Or it's possible that she's just a user and realizes that it's better to make up, or appear to.

In real-world cities, generally the District Attorneys of the world would have nothing to do with representing a city officials. District Attorneys represent the counties and their employees, which is a different level/type of government from cities. A mayor in trouble would turn to the law department of the city, or more likely hire private attorneys at his own expense. 

[benteen]

Right.  They would turn to an official counsel to the Mayor I would think.  It sure as hell wouldn't be the DA defending Oliver.

[KirkB]

Question. Prometheus DID push Vigilante off the roof, right? I didn't imagine that, did I? If that's the case, then was there something in the episode I missed to explain how Vigilante turned up later, seemingly without a scratch on him?

[arjumand]

17 minutes ago, KirkB said:

Question. Prometheus DID push Vigilante off the roof, right? I didn't imagine that, did I? If that's the case, then was there something in the episode I missed to explain how Vigilante turned up later, seemingly without a scratch on him?

It was the usual tropey "pushing person off roof", as seen in a billion movie/tv scenes:

Person pushes other person off roof - goes to look (to see if person went splat, I presume), but THERE'S NO-ONE THERE! DUN DUN DUNNNNN. Insert Scooby Doo sound effect here, because that's the level of the writing we have this season.

I'm not sure if I made it clear enough, but I was underwhelmed by this episode.

Edited March 3, 2017 by arjumand

[dtissagirl]

I had a friend in high school that had recurring dreams of falling off of great heights and bouncing off like a tennis ball.

Maybe he's Vigilante.

Edited March 3, 2017 by dtissagirl

[Delphi]

I think my favorite part of this episode was Thea acknowledging that she'd never ride in a limo with Oliver again.   Honestly,  she might be the smartest character in the show. 

[Hiveminder]

2 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Honestly if I were kidnapped and the crazy guy told me to live I had to write about the mayor being the city's vigilante and a Bratva captain I'd do it too. Susan is in the wrong in my eyes because all I saw was her trying to advance her career by any means necessary but if it was an ethical reporter finding out all she found out about Oliver I'd be conflicted about what was right. Because on one hand keeping the secret is important to keep people that are trying to do good safe but I don't know if it's more important than the life of an innocent person that was just doing her job. The problem is Susan is horrible so the writers failed to make this story interesting to me, LOL.

If she was an ethical reporter who showed some kind of hesitation about getting into a relationship with Oliver she would have gone over much better with the audience.

It wouldn't have been hard to make her into a sympathetic character who finds some evidence that her new boyfriend is connected to the Russian mob and can't help but look into it because holy shit. A little digging, she finds the picture of him as the Hood in Russia, puts the pieces together, and is conflicted about what to do. On the one hand, Oliver seems like a good person, not too bright but his abs are amazing. On the other hand, he's killed people and is connected to organized crime. 

So she goes to Oliver and asks him, hoping he'll be honest with her, but he lies to her. She still doesn't know what to do with what she knows, but then Thea gets involved. Maybe Thea hasn't had time to get to know Susan very well, doesn't know what kind of person she is, and panics. Maybe they had some version of the initial meeting that didn't make Susan look like a total snake and that she was sincerely sorry for and apologized to Thea for, but that left Thea still not trusting her.  

If they wanted to do the Thea and Felicity ruin Susan's career thing, they could have done it while actually making Susan likeable. 

[AudienceofOne]

On 01/03/2017 at 9:19 PM, BkWurm1 said:

Um, he has an head injury and his doctor said he needed a girlfriend.  

Which throws up the interesting possibility that Oliver's weird behaviour this season is down to something as simple as loneliness. Any port in a storm kind of thing

Felicity's "dark side" isn't particularly dark so far. If I hadn't heard ominous rumblings about her 'dark arc' then Dig's sudden 'what is the dark path you're on?' would have had me flummoxed. Thea's version of this story was significantly better. 

Another head scratcher is Dinah's story. Suddenly she's front and centre when, for a moment at the beginning, I had no freaking clue who she was. That was all too quick.

One thing that confused me about the plot - what was with Prometheus taking down Vigilante but then Vigilante being fine? I didn't understand that at all.

6 hours ago, KirkB said:

Question. Prometheus DID push Vigilante off the roof, right? I didn't imagine that, did I? If that's the case, then was there something in the episode I missed to explain how Vigilante turned up later, seemingly without a scratch on him?

My question also. Prometheus also called in the altercation as Chase? Me no know what is happening

6 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

In an earlier episode, the cop said something about how the wound on Malone matched Green Arrow's arrows. They undoubtedly have like plenty of points of comparison. How many people would we say Ollie has shot since his return to Star City? Gotta be up in the thousands by now. 

But they also found the evidence that Prometheus set the Arrow up, which was part of why Pike believed Oliver. But that fact was completely ignored in this episode. I still don't know how Oliver was manipulated into throwing the Arrow under the bus as much as he did. It's a head scratcher.

[statsgirl]

44 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

My question also. Prometheus also called in the altercation as Chase? Me no know what is happening

As Chase, he had credibility as the DA rather than just an anonymous caller.  Vigilante would be gone by the time the police arrived anyway.

I agree though, Oliver throwing the Green Arrow under the bus didn't make sense because it just made him as mayor look worse.

[Hiveminder]

20 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

Which throws up the interesting possibility that Oliver's weird behaviour this season is down to something as simple as loneliness. Any port in a storm kind of thing

Felicity's "dark side" isn't particularly dark so far. If I hadn't heard ominous rumblings about her 'dark arc' then Dig's sudden 'what is the dark path you're on?' would have had me flummoxed. Thea's version of this story was significantly better. 

Another head scratcher is Dinah's story. Suddenly she's front and centre when, for a moment at the beginning, I had no freaking clue who she was. That was all too quick.

One thing that confused me about the plot - what was with Prometheus taking down Vigilante but then Vigilante being fine? I didn't understand that at all.

My question also. Prometheus also called in the altercation as Chase? Me no know what is happening

I think they did that so we would know Prometheus was Chase. Because it's not like we would recognize his face or anything. 

[AudienceofOne]

But why would Prometheus do it? Why throw Vigilante off a building then call it in as Chase? And why did nobody ask Chase any questions about it? And what was Chase reporting anyway? He clearly wanted to lead the Arrow team to the Vigilante but then why make the call? 

[Mellowyellow]

6 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

But why would Prometheus do it? Why throw Vigilante off a building then call it in as Chase? And why did nobody ask Chase any questions about it? And what was Chase reporting anyway? He clearly wanted to lead the Arrow team to the Vigilante but then why make the call? 

Reasons!

Think of it as amateur fanfic (like the ones by the really poor authors, not even the good authors who write well). It will make watching the show easier!

[statsgirl]

1 hour ago, AudienceofOne said:

But why would Prometheus do it? Why throw Vigilante off a building then call it in as Chase? And why did nobody ask Chase any questions about it? And what was Chase reporting anyway? He clearly wanted to lead the Arrow team to the Vigilante but then why make the call? 

At a guess, and fanwanking madly, Chasee wanted to take the Vigilante off the board because he wanted to be the one to kill Oliver, but only after psychologically torturing him some more.  Vigilante was interfering with that by trying to kill Oliver himself right away.

Chase was reporting a sighting of the Vigilante.  He was reporting as himself because the police would come out faster and maybe find an injured Vigilante who they would take into custody.  Probably the police did question  him offscreenville.  He could easily say that he was walking by and caught sight of the Vigilante on the roof, knew he was wanted by the police and called it in.

[Kimmel77]

Underwhelmed by the reveal of Prometheus because 1) it had little impact on me 2) its always one of the newish cast members. Plus, the guy doesn't really have the physique or stature portrayed by Prometheus, so it doesn't seem like a decent fit in that regard.

It was rather shitty for Paul to drag Curtis to a posh restaurant to serve him divorce papers. Was he scared Curtis may beat him up in private or something?

I want to mention the reporter for the simple matter of stating I want her gone. Too much time is devoted to Oliver's love life and his struggle for romance vs heroism. Its been done enough times now.

[AudienceofOne]

10 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Probably the police did question  him offscreenville.  

The only explanation I had was that a good half of the episode occurred in Offscreenville. Again.

6 hours ago, Kimmel77 said:

It was rather shitty for Paul to drag Curtis to a posh restaurant to serve him divorce papers.

And then serve immediately and leave. So they didn't even eat. Thanks for nothing, Paul.

[Hiveminder]

32 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

 

And then serve immediately and leave. So they didn't even eat. Thanks for nothing, Paul.

That's telling your best friend that your mutual ex loves him and then immediately having sex with that mutual ex in front of a window your best friend happens to be walking past levels of dick right there. 

[KirkB]

It was kind of a cold move on Paul's part, but to give him the benefit of the doubt I imagine he set up the meeting to talk, not necessarily so he and Curtis could reconcile but at least to hear him out. He had the divorce papers but I'm sure he didn't want to use them. Only Curtis is late, again, deflects what he was really doing (even though it's obvious by now) and Paul decided he couldn't take it anymore. He has reason to be upset, given all the lying Curtis had been doing, and now when he finally wants to talk he finds out Curtis would apparently rather spend time with his masked friends instead.

[legaleagle53]

6 minutes ago, KirkB said:

It was kind of a cold move on Paul's part, but to give him the benefit of the doubt I imagine he set up the meeting to talk, not necessarily so he and Curtis could reconcile but at least to hear him out. He had the divorce papers but I'm sure he didn't want to use them. Only Curtis is late, again, deflects what he was really doing (even though it's obvious by now) and Paul decided he couldn't take it anymore. He has reason to be upset, given all the lying Curtis had been doing, and now when he finally wants to talk he finds out Curtis would apparently rather spend time with his masked friends instead.

But Curtis didn't deflect what he was really doing.  He told Paul up-front that he was late because he was busy stopping an assassination attempt; he just didn't say whose assassination he was preventing or why.  Paul was a dick for setting Curtis up that way, especially since he knew that Curtis still loved him and wanted him to come back.  Curtis is better off without him.

[bijoux]

Paul was cold but I'm still on his side. All Curtis did since Paul walked out was wait for Paul to make his move and work on his spheres. Of which he did not even inform Paul. That was supposed to be a surprise. Why not shoot the dude a text, hey, I'm working on something that should help keep me alive? Not that it would have mattered probably. It wouldn't erase the lying or Paul maybe not wanting a husband who played hapless vigilante.

[Hiveminder]

14 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

But Curtis didn't deflect what he was really doing.  He told Paul up-front that he was late because he was busy stopping an assassination attempt; he just didn't say whose assassination he was preventing or why.  Paul was a dick for setting Curtis up that way, especially since he knew that Curtis still loved him and wanted him to come back.  Curtis is better off without him.

Yeah, Paul had to know that inviting Curtis to datenight! Jitters would look like a step toward reconciliation. Even if he didn't want to use the divorce papers, he still had them. He never should have set up a meeting in that environment if using them was a possibility. 

I'll admit that I didn't pay much attention to Curtis or Paul in season four, so my impression of Paul is pretty much based on this season. I don't remember if he was like able before, but now he seems like he's just not into Curtis enough to try to work through their problems.  He actually made me feel a little sorry for Curtis, when I usually just treat him like background noise. 

[legaleagle53]

15 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

Yeah, Paul had to know that inviting Curtis to datenight! Jitters would look like a step toward reconciliation. Even if he didn't want to use the divorce papers, he still had them. He never should have set up a meeting in that environment if using them was a possibility. 

I'll admit that I didn't pay much attention to Curtis or Paul in season four, so my impression of Paul is pretty much based on this season. I don't remember if he was like able before, but now he seems like he's just not into Curtis enough to try to work through their problems.  He actually made me feel a little sorry for Curtis, when I usually just treat him like background noise. 

Seriously.  The non-dickish way to have done it would have been for Paul to have his lawyer effect service through a legally-authorized process server (I really doubt that Paul would have prepared the petition for dissolution by himself as a pro per party).  Curtis would still take it like a sucker-punch to the gut, but at least Paul wouldn't be guilty of twisting the knife as he did.  Serving Curtis directly simply wasn't legally necessary if Paul retained a lawyer to advise him and prepare the petition and other paperwork for him.  It was a deliberate set-up by Paul to hurt and humiliate Curtis as much as possible, and I hope Curtis finds the strength to fight back in court and take whatever the divorce laws of his state allow him to take.

Edited March 4, 2017 by legaleagle53

[AudienceofOne]

46 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

I'll admit that I didn't pay much attention to Curtis or Paul in season four, so my impression of Paul is pretty much based on this season. I don't remember if he was like able before, but now he seems like he's just not into Curtis enough to try to work through their problems.  

Since Curtis didn't agonise for a moment before ending their marriage to go fight crime, I'm not completely anti-Paul. After all, he said "me or vigilantism" and Curtis went "vigilantism, duh" so Curtis disinterest got there first. I still think this was a dick move.

[Hiveminder]

15 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

Since Curtis didn't agonise for a moment before ending their marriage to go fight crime, I'm not completely anti-Paul. After all, he said "me or vigilantism" and Curtis went "vigilantism, duh" so Curtis disinterest got there first. I still think this was a dick move.

Oh yeah, as much as I gave them any thought before this episode, I thought Paul was totally justified in leaving Curtis. It's just this particular incident that makes me feel sorry for Curtis. And it's not even really feeling bad for Curtis as it is that uncomfortable second hand embarrassment feeling. 

 

49 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

Seriously.  The non-dickish way to have done it would have been for Paul to have his lawyer effect service through a legally-authorized process server (I really doubt that Paul would have prepared the petition for dissolution by himself as a pro per party).  Curtis would still take it like a sucker-punch to the gut, but at least Paul wouldn't be guilty of twisting the knife as he did.  Serving Curtis directly simply wasn't legally necessary if Paul retained a lawyer to advise him and prepare the petition and other paperwork for him.  It was a deliberate set-up by Paul to hurt and humiliate Curtis as much as possible, and I hope Curtis finds the strength to fight back in court and take whatever the divorce laws of his state allow him to take.

Since I'm guessing Curtis had some kind of monetary award from winning and Olympic medal and what looked to be a pretty decently paying job at PT, and physical therapists make decent money but not exactly gobs of cash, I'd say they'd either come out even or Curtis would end up paying more. But it's not like the show is going to even mention any of that.