S05.E15: Fighting Fire With Fire

[Lantern7]

Wow. Way to swerve away from canon, show. I'm guessing that Adrian-as-Vigilante was supposed to be a poorly-kept secret . . . but Oliver's new best buddy is the guy trying to kill him? Both versions? Not as big a twist as the end of the Oscars, but that's in the ballpark.

I'm surprised Thea didn't invoke her (biological) father in her turn to the dark side. Contemplating throwing a dead cop (and Felicity's boyfriend, don't forget) under the bus? That's so cold. At least she acknowledges stepping over the line, even if Susan sucks so hard. Now what? Back to running a club in the Glades?

Curtis had his bar mitzvah. Mazeltov!!! Nice to get the spheres working, even though he lost Paul. And he might be bumping Rene to the bottom of the pile, which lots of viewers would like.

Had a laugh at Prometheus vs. Vigilante. It kind came out of nowhere. Dunno who Vige is. Tommy Merlyn, anyone? Probably not, but if he did live past the first season, he'd probably would've tried to murder by at least last season.

What happen to Dolph? The Bratva arc isn't as big a drag as last season's flashbacks, but I need a familiar face aside from Anatoli.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Well, the show used comic knowledge against people again, because in the comics, Adrian Chase was Vigilante. So him being Prometheus wasn't even something I considered. 

I am not willing to try and watch old episodes again, but I don't know that Adrian being Prometheus really squares with what we've seen Adrian do.

Vigilante doesn't really make much sense either. Of the five million scumbags in Star City, why target Oliver for death? And why do so in a way that potentially threatens innocents? There are numerous ways to target just Oliver without risking the lives of at least 4 innocent people. Back when I thought Vigilante was Chase, I thought that maybe he was trying to drum up support and sympathy for Oliver by faking a Vigilante attack. The notion that Vigilante was really trying to kill him and did such a bad job is a little mind-boggling.

Similarly, the notion that Prometheus went out of his way to log the piece of Vigilante's visor doesn't make sense. Prometheus has no idea (as far as I can recall, anyway) that Dinah is Black Canary (or whatever code name she may or may not be going by). 

The first ball joke was fine, but it wore its welcome out quick. I'm sad that they may not have the budget to have Mr. Terrific have floating T-Spheres.

Other than plot, any reason why the three let Vigilante escape?

[Sunshine]

1 hour ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Yes. That bugged me, too. Not only that he wasn't upset about it, but that he didn't even comment on it when she was done laying out her case in a friendly manner. Those two may be close, but yeah- he should have raised some kind of hell.

Are they writing Thea out? They haven't seemed to know what to do with her this season, but that would really suck, as Thea's character is probably the single most nuanced and well developed character in this entire series. And while I was iffy on her performance back in season 1, Willa has really grown into the role well.

Spoiler

She's only signed for 14 episodes this season.  She's been in 12

[Starfish35]

So why did Thea leave?

[Sunshine]

4 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

So why did Thea leave?

To heal.  I think everything was too much for her.  She even mentioned the bloodlust.

3 minutes ago, RogerDodger said:

 

2) Did it seem as if the doctor treating Oliver's concussion knew he was the Green Arrow? She made some kind of reference to his other job which made it seem as if she did. (Not that there is exactly a shortage of people who know this.)

      

Oliver was in the Green Arrow suit when he took Laurel to the hospital last year.  She was the attending physician.

[Hiveminder]

3 minutes ago, RogerDodger said:

I'll admit to sometimes not watching very closely, but three things jumped out:

1) I would have sworn that at some point this season we had seen scenes of Chase and scenes of Prometheus occurring at the same time, making it impossible for them to be the same.

2) Did it seem as if the doctor treating Oliver's concussion knew he was the Green Arrow? She made some kind of reference to his other job which made it seem as if she did. (Not that there is exactly a shortage of people who know this.)

3) Would someone's spouse committing suicide really be considered a "scandal?"  I can see wanting to keep it private, but it hardly seems scandalous.  Unless there was some implication that the councilman drove his wife to kill herself and I missed it.        

1. This show's not always the best without continuity or timelines.

2. She definitely did. She was the doctor from the episode where Laurel died. 

3. Maybe the part where he covered it up would be a scandal? Mostly, I think Thea wanted to use the councilman's wife's suicide as 'blackmail' because he clearly didn't want people to know the truth than because he did something wrong. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

42 minutes ago, RogerDodger said:

Would someone's spouse committing suicide really be considered a "scandal?"  I can see wanting to keep it private, but it hardly seems scandalous.  Unless there was some implication that the councilman drove his wife to kill herself and I missed it.        

People have uncomfortable feelings about suicide, and putting it in the open that the wife killed herself would bring a lot to the surface.

Also, there's the issue of the coverup being worse than the crime. 

Also, I believe sometimes insurance might not pay out on a suicide, but would for other causes of death.

[bethy]

Watched late on the DVR. I got to the point where Oliver asked Felicity to help him get Susan to talk to him and Felicity agreed, had a rage blackout, surfaced to read a tweet that Oliver is back with Susan, who was kidnapped, and turned it off.

I don't even understand what the writers/producers/PTB think they're doing with  this show. When was this episode written and filmed? Are they doubling down on a storyline NO-ONE has seemed to like? Did this happen before they could even start to course correct?

WHAT IS HAPPENING?

Edited March 2, 2017 by bethy

[Mellowyellow]

Is he making heart eyes at the reporter? I heard there were smiles!

[statsgirl]

Oliver's desperation to get back with Susan and his heart eyes are revolting.  (Unfortunately Carly Pope's character broke up with Louis on Suits so now Arrow is stuck with her.).

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Well, the show used comic knowledge against people again, because in the comics, Adrian Chase was Vigilante. So him being Prometheus wasn't even something I considered.

I would say that that's good news because it lessens the odds of Oliver being with Dinah next but right now, I don't want him anywhere near Felicity because he's lost so many points by this relationship with Susan.

I don't know what they've been putting in the water to make the EPs think that this is a good idea but appears to be highly hallucinogenic and creates delusions.

3 hours ago, Hiveminder said:

Editing this to add that I'm half afraid that I'm your friend comment is the lead up to Chase single white femaling Oliver. That's some crazy obsession right there.

They've been practicing with Dinah and Laurel.

Edited March 2, 2017 by statsgirl

[thegirlsleuth]

Sorry my comments are late.  I was out buying a flamethrower for Felicity.

I did not enjoy this episode.  First, so much paternalistic crap.  I liked how Emily and David played their scene, but the message--"We're allowed to have difficult emotions, but you need to be better than us"--is one I HATE. As much as David played it with warmth, telling her she's not allowed to have a dark side pisses me off.  Oliver telling Thea that she should be ashamed was bad enough, but when it was coupled with him shooting down all her suggestions for impeachment damage control it came across as really patronizing.  Finally, Oliver's convoluted "I lied about the Green Arrow killing Detective Tiny Hand because I didn't think the citizens of Starling could handle the disappointment" was controlling and paternalistic in a much larger way.  I assume there are at least a few adults in Starling City that could decide what they thought after getting the facts.

I like Chase as Prometheus mostly because I've liked the actor's performance through the season, not for anything in the story.  He had this sort of off-kilter looseness which makes me believe he could be a half-insane murderer out for revenge.  Because of comics spoilers I had been assumed he was Vigilante, and appreciate the swerve.  However, they better do a good job going forward of making very clear why he was motivated to do this because right now he's sort of a very smart but very empty shell.  It struck me last week that Oliver's storyline with Susan could have been so much more interesting if they gave her plot points to Chase.  At the time I had thought Oliver and Chase were going to be hero and anti-hero, rather than hero and villain, but I think it could have been interesting if at the same time that Oliver is battling Prometheus that he had this fellow person, also a public servant, who he suspects knows about his green life. The blackmail plot could have worked well, and who knows, maybe Oliver wouldn't look like he wanted to chew off his arm after the bedroom scene.

Random question:  So if Chase got Diggle out of jail, was that part of some larger strategy?  Maybe to force Felicity to work with Helix? If no, did he throw it in as a bonus when Prometheus took his three week vacation.  Was he out of town registering Evelyn for boarding school? I will be really happy if his real last name is Wilson.

Finally, I don't know how he did it, but David Ramsey managed to look hot in a cardigan.  That is his superpower.

[thegirlsleuth]

Oh, one extra thing:  I was really annoyed that Oliver and Felicity's discussion about the blackmail material happened offscreen.  I think this is the big catalyst for Felicity's dark arc, and it would have been nice if we got her thinking about what it means to fight fire with fire, and how much her thinking had really changed after her discussion with Diggle.  

[statsgirl]

13 minutes ago, thegirlsleuth said:

Oh, one extra thing:  I was really annoyed that Oliver and Felicity's discussion about the blackmail material happened offscreen.  I think this is the big catalyst for Felicity's dark arc, and it would have been nice if we got her thinking about what it means to fight fire with fire, and how much her thinking had really changed after her discussion with Diggle.

That is why I have no faith that Felicity's descent into darkness will be anything more than a momentary blip.  They're not setting it up with any depth and, assuming that the last three episodes are a single day like they were in other seasons, that only leaves 5 episodes to play it out.  We've spent more time on Susan's job than there is to spend on Felicity now.

[DigitalCount]

So is Adrian Chase Justin Claybourne's son?

I was more than a little disappointed that Susan was neither Prometheus nor Vigilante. When Prometheus was revealed to be Adrian I was so confused, because I thought Adrian was a lock for Vigilante, and then I started wondering about his wife, and then I had to retrace his injuries in Spectre of the Gun. Glancing at the Arrowverse wiki shows me that Prometheus didn't appear as himself in that episode, so I guess maybe he was recuperating, but he very well could have died protecting his secret. Was Adrian always intended to be Prometheus?

Also, I didn't get the idea that he genuinely wants to be Oliver's buddy. I just thought that was part of the ruse, and that he's toying with him. But if this is about revenge...I don't know if this one holds up. It's better than CeCe as A, but it's not particularly clean. Of course, I might have just been so convinced that he was Vigilante that I missed something else more subtle.

[finnaire]

Turns out  Gregor withheld $40 million rubles from his Bratva buddies and Victor gets to cast the deciding vote.  Just like Pence!  To the Victor go the spoils?

Ah, Susan has a blog. Continuity does exist!  Apparently, she’s still pissed about losing her job though, because that, “You deserve today,” did not sound like it was spoken by a woman in love.  Bet she’ll change her tune by act four. Aaaand...she has her job back and is in love again. Thank you, writers, for continuing the agony. Unfortunately, this is NOT the continuity I was hoping for.

Loved how Thea, someone who really loves Oliver, is able to spout off a list of all the great deeds he’s done as mayor while his lady love tells him he’s just been phoning it in. Guess she was too busy investigating his other activities that she didn’t bother to notice what he did accomplish.

So, the coroner falsifies the autopsy.  The district attorney is complicit in getting the official records changed.  The Police Chief admits he’s been withholding information about the conspiracy and the mayor’s involvement.  The mayor is the head of the snake orchestrating the conspiracy. Seems the fine citizens of Star City should head to their next town hall meeting and demand that the investigation be expanded.  Hmm, wonder if the council members will show up.

Thea wanted to dirty up Malone to what purpose? To excuse the fact that he got murdered? Oh, he was a dirty you cop, you say?  Then good riddance to bad rubbish, sir. Mr. Mayor, you have been exonerated! At least Quentin got to shake his head vociferously in objection to Thea’s suggestion. Twice. Even if he wasn’t allowed to defend a fellow cop using actual words.

Did Dr. Schwartz just tell us that Oliver is gonna crack?

[bijoux]

Okay, here's my plea. Can we drop the "plans" and just have episodes that are fun and engaging? Please and thank you.

[surfer]

So not a single person at the press conference heard the gunfire and explosions happening directly across the street?

[Tazmania]

1 minute ago, surfer said:

So not a single person at the press conference heard the gunfire and explosions happening directly across the street?

I was screaming at my TV. Not only everyone is blind in Star City (They don't recognize Ollie as Green Arrow even though most of his face is visible) they are all deaf as well

[bijoux]

So, Tinah is on Oliver's security detail and also hangs out at the police precinct? How does that work? And let's not even bring up the fact that she did the canary cry while on duty as the mayor's detail, in plain sight and with no care to protect her identity in any way. Does this gun ordinance prevent her from carrying a gun and using that in exactly this sort of situation? Oh. My. God.

[thuganomics85]

Whelp, I totally called that wrong!  Chase isn't Vigilante, but Prometheus!  That was surprising and is really going to make me want to look back at all of his past scenes differently.  Still a bit unsure over his grand plan, but I'm curious to see where this goes.  And I guess the question now is going to be who is Vigilante?

So, Oliver's getting impeached and everything, and yet he still spends almost half of his time fretting over Susan.  I just don't get it.  The writing just hasn't established this relationship enough for me to buy Oliver being this hung up over her, so none of the scenes feel natural or fit with what is being shown.  Again, it feels like they are treating her as the love his life, and not someone started dating a few weeks ago.  Oh, and also kept things from him and cool easily expose his identity too.

That said, I do think Thea was going overboard by actually wanting to dig up and expose the chairman's wife trying to kill herself.  Yeah, I get politics is a dirty business, but I don't.  I guess I just feel like that's bigger then, say, exposing if he was having an affair or using hookers.  Of course, now she's resigning, so I don't know what the hell they are planning for her now.  They seem at a loss, honestly.

The Felicity/Diggle scene was nice and well acted, although I still side-eye Diggle basically saying "Yeah, sure all of us did bad things, but your different Felicity!"  Still, I suspect her joining Helix will end up backfiring.  I also think Kacey Rohl's character will end up having a real dark side to her.  She is way too friendly!

Curtis over the moon over Paul's cool made it easy to predict he will have his dreams be crushed.  That looked like a romantic place, so I'm not sure why Paul picked that place to do the whole "By the way, I want a divorce!" act.  Granted, I was more distracted over how obvious it was they were using the Jitters set.  Kept waiting for Barry to pop up, and wonder where all the coffee went.

Basically, Anatoly is spared after he decrees some kind of Bratva code, where they have to vote between him and Gregor as the new leader (I think?)  Oliver digs up dirt and proves Gregor is keeping money for himself, so Antaoly is the new lead, and it is time for a gun battle!

So, the big cliffhanger for the show's week break is that Chase kidnaps Susan.  How.... suspenseful?

[Mellowyellow]

I watched it!!!!! Yay me!!!!!!

Oh Felicity, my poor, beautiful, brainy baby you contact the Waverider and run off with Ray once and for all!!!!!!! She broke my heart during that scene with asshole Oliver! 

That pink dress though! OMG that pink dress was amazing!!!!!!! Made the episode worth it!

On the bright side I thought I detected some "aw shucks" heart eyes when she told him he was a hero

On another bright side I thought he would have been making bigger heart eyes for the Flesh Eating Toad based on the comments but I didn't think it was too heart eyeish so I surprisingly raged less than I thought I would. I actually watched this scene and had to look at her face so I could determine how heavy the heart eyes were, crazy shipper that I am. 

Dear Prometheus, I hope you stab that pantry moth in the eye and then run her over with a van in the next episode. Oh sorry was I supposed to care about that wasp to want to tune in and see whether she makes it out alive or not. Jeez! What a marvellous cliffhanger!

[Midnight Lullaby]

I'm conflicted because I couldn't stand Oliver but the episode overall was entertaining..it's a pity he is the lead character, LOL.

I thought the reason for Felicity to join Helix was weak but the story has potential so w/e, I'll take it.

I read the comments beforehand so I was cackling the whole time when Chase pretended to be Oliver's friend  knowing he is Prometheus. I like Chase so I'm happy for the reveal.

Oliver asking Felicity to fix things with his new girlfriend was pretty gross. She was clearly uncomfortable and he didn't seem to give a damn, he only cared about himself. It was sad also because after that she gave him that supporting speech so when I see her being so nice and selfless Oliver looks even worse to me in comparison.

I don't care about the reporter, she is really ruining my enjoyment. She is S3 MM.

[bijoux]

I know that GA and Prometheus are supposed to be two sides of the same coin or something like that, but it looks to me that he is goals to Oliver. He seems competent in both his day and night jobs, not needing people bailing him out, and he has a wife who actually shows up to the hospital when he's injured. At least that's how I pieced together things from the shooting episode. Oliver can't just kill him at the end of the season, he needs to ask him for tips. Hey, since he's supposed to be the result of the Hood's actions, he might pop up from time to time, which is what I think they planned with Slade before things turned sour with MB. So Chase could take on that role.

[GHScorpiosRule]

My God. I know I said this last week, but let me expand and say that Oliver is the Biggest  Dumbass that ever ASSED. Even Clark or Justin Hartley's Ollie weren't this dumb.?

Telling Thea to fix it and get Susan her job back, and when she refuses, goes to his ex-fiancée and tells her to do it, because wah wah, that twat isn't returning his phone calls???It's beyond gross.

And boo hoo, Susan got fired because of the planted evidence and now is stuck with a blog, as if that's the worst.  Whatever credibility she had as a journalist, went down the tubes when she boinked Oliver. And her getting on her high horse, as if she wasn't secretly investigating him to out him as the Green Arrow, or whatever she was going to do just had me ???

Then when she's hired back, everything TOTES okay, and now she's willing to listen and believe him and let bygones be bygones!!???

But the other worst thing he did was how quickly he accepted Thea's resignation-all for that shady twat of a side piece (and I'm not even a shipper!)

She must have a magical glittery Hoo Ha that she's all of a sudden everything to Oliver's Dick Oliver.

I read all the comments before watching and it seems like Chase forgot how to speak normally, which would have tipped me off, along with how he took Vigilante's piece of visor. What was up with all those long drawn out pauses between each word?

That's all I can manage now. More on how Felicity was treated and her decision (which, you GO GURL!!!!) later.

Edited March 2, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[benteen]

I'm not sure why Chase got Diggle off the hook.  The only way that works is if he is also working with Helix, which seems too grand of a conspiracy even for him.

Quote

So, the coroner falsifies the autopsy.  The district attorney is complicit in getting the official records changed.  The Police Chief admits he’s been withholding information about the conspiracy and the mayor’s involvement.  The mayor is the head of the snake orchestrating the conspiracy. Seems the fine citizens of Star City should head to their next town hall meeting and demand that the investigation be expanded.  Hmm, wonder if the council members will show up.

Seriously, this should have been enough to get them all impeached and thrown in jail.  But in the past, Star City has deliberately hid on two occasions times when dangerous criminals have broken out of jail.  The city is worse than ever.

Edited March 2, 2017 by benteen

[Chicago Redshirt]

Am I wrong, or wasn't there dialogue an episode or two ago establishing that Ollie and Susan hadn't even done the dirty deed at that point?

Edited March 2, 2017 by Chicago Redshirt

[bijoux]

17 minutes ago, benteen said:

I'm not sure why Chase got Diggle off the hook.  The only way that works is if he is also working with Helix, which seems to grand of a conspiracy even for him.

This could actually have worked if we were shown Dig spending time and bonding with Chase after the release. It could have been a way for Chase to carve himself an in with Dig and sway him away from Oliver at the right time. It also would have been great if he was a sympathetic ear to Thea over dealing with Oliver's screw ups, and possibly even to Felicity in the wake of Billy's death. Then it would have been a true plan on separating Oliver from the team. 

2 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Am I wrong, or wasn't there dialogue an episode or two ago establishing that Ollie and Susan hadn't even done the dirty deed at that point?

There was in 512 and then it happened at the end of that episode.

[Chaser]

That was at the beginning of 5x12 as set up to do it at the end of 5x12.

[Chicago Redshirt]

5 hours ago, finnaire said:

Thea wanted to dirty up Malone to what purpose? To excuse the fact that he got murdered? Oh, he was a dirty you cop, you say?  Then good riddance to bad rubbish, sir. Mr. Mayor, you have been exonerated! At least Quentin got to shake his head vociferously in objection to Thea’s suggestion. Twice. Even if he wasn’t allowed to defend a fellow cop using actual words.

The public and the police are fine with Green Arrow killing criminals by the quiverful. The issue here is that Green Arrow was accused of crossing a line in killing a cop. By creating a story that (say) Malone was a dirty cop in league with Prometheus, it would likely make Green Arrow's actions look justified and in turn make Ollie's actions in burying the Green Arrow connection seem justified.  

4 hours ago, bijoux said:

So, Tinah is on Oliver's security detail and also hangs out at the police precinct? How does that work? And let's not even bring up the fact that she did the canary cry while on duty as the mayor's detail, in plain sight and with no care to protect her identity in any way. Does this gun ordinance prevent her from carrying a gun and using that in exactly this sort of situation? Oh. My. God.

Vigilante has body armor that is meant to protect him from gunfire. Her sonic scream likely was a more effective weapon. (Although like most super powers on these shows, varies based on plot needs. Instead of knocking him unconscious either by itself or by the impact of slamming him into a car or whatever, Vig is able to get up). Most of the non-regulars seemed knocked out at that point, and in a worst case scenario, Ollie could explain that he wanted a meta to be his bodyguard.

In terms of Dinah going to the police precinct, it doesn't seem far-fetched that at some points the mayor's guard would have to check in at police HQ, fill out paperwork, etc etc. In this particular case, she would have just made whatever excuses so she could grab the piece of Vig's visor. 

[Primetimer]

Just like the real world, everything is solved by a few five-minute speeches and good intentions.

View the full article

[bijoux]

But she was hanging out at a desk like it was her desk. And as for Oliver wanting a meta as a bodyguard, cool. What about the fact that one looking exactly like her with the exact same power is working with the Green Arrow? The same dude that Oliver has just outed as a cop killer. It's all too insane and the less I think about it, the better.

[Aeryn13]

Oliver`s motivation in some regards hinges on the audience buying into Susan as a character and their romance. And it`s a fail on both. The Susan-character is and always has been unlikeable and uncharismatic and the actors have no chemistry. So him going all over the place to help her get her job back? It seems so stupid.

Right now, I`m even rooting for Prometheus to kill her before he is put down. Why? Because at least Adrian is an interesting character right now and he has goddamn chemistry in his scenes with Oliver.

Heck, the flashbacks had Oliver trying to help someone and it was cute and heartwarming because I love Anatoly and their friendship.

Susan is just a black hole of suck that tears Oliver down right now. Try to imagine she and her stupid side story weren`t there and we only had the impeachment/cover-up dilemma for Oliver. I mean, that story could go on pretty much as it did. And Oliver`s character would come across so much better. Personally I feel bad that they stuck him with such a failing plot device as rayporter.

The writers seem really bad in predicting which character would hit it off with the audience IMO. Surely, the Susan thing was supposed to come across way differently. Then they thought Renè was the greatest of all the newbies so he got more coverage. Maybe in the future they should go with who they like least and assume THAT is gonna be a crowd-pleaser. It will probably be true.     

Edited March 2, 2017 by Aeryn13

[benteen]

It's funny that the characters are trying to save Ollie's administration and this episode shows it's not really worth saving.  Oliver is completely compromised by the fact that he's the Arrow.  He is covering stuff up and looking for way to deflect from his activities.  He lies about it regularly.  I don't care what Thea did to Susan, who had it coming but now all of a sudden, she's blackmailing everyone.  Oliver often looks overwhelmed with what he's doing.  Oliver's administration isn't worth saving.

[LeighAn]

I think the writers want us to believe that Dinah is both a cop, part of the mayors personal protection detail and a vigilante, because basically she's just an extra with lines and they need to justify her existence somehow but only want to put minutes of thought into her character.

[dtissagirl]

2 minutes ago, benteen said:

It's funny that the characters are trying to save Ollie's administration and this episode shows it's not really worth saving.  Oliver is completely compromised by the fact that he's the Arrow.  He is covering stuff up and looking for way to deflect from his activities.  He lies about it regularly.  I don't care what Thea did to Susan, who had it coming but now all of a sudden, she's blackmailing everyone.  Oliver often looks overwhelmed with what he's doing.  Oliver's administration isn't worth saving.

I think this is the part of the narrative that makes me wanna punch people up the nose. Oliver does have a really shady past, he's got a closet full of skeletons, he IS hiding a pretty big night job while being a public servant... and the moment he decided it was okay to use the Mayor's office to cover for Green Arrow? Like going to Pike last week, and saying the Green Arrow was set up by Prometheus? That made him a politician using his office for personal gain. That's corruption.

But the narrative doesn't even seem to BE AWARE of any of this. The entire story is written from the standpoint that the secret of being Green Arrow outweighs any and all of Oliver's actions as Mayor. That's insane.

[insomniadreams88]

Still rage-y over Oliver going to Felicity for help with Susan. 

I liked seeing Diggle and Felicity talk, but I can't help but feel like everyone's holding Felicity to a higher standard and that's really just not fair.

I'm at the point where I don't care if Helix is the evilest to ever evil, if they appreciate Felicity, I'm all for her joining up with them.  

I'm going to miss Thea, but I'm actually kind of okay that she left so she doesn't have to continue to see her brother's stupidity. I do wish we could see what she's up to next, much like I would have liked to see how she got from where she was in 423 to where she was in 501.

I really want to know how Susan's blog got her access to an impeachment hearing. Aren't they supposed to vet the "reporters" at those things? Someone who was fired for plagiarism shouldn't make the cut.

Also, I know I'm probably supposed to be worried now whenever Chase is in a scene with anyone, but I'm just not. It's more like, "meh, okay? You go Chase!" It's not like S2 with Slade where I was worried when he showed up at the mansion. 

I can't believe anyone thought Chase kidnapping Susan was a good cliffhanger. 

And Oliver painting GA as the bad guy just makes zero sense and I really just don't care. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I liked seeing Diggle and Felicity talk, but I can't help but feel like everyone's holding Felicity to a higher standard and that's really just not fair.

I think they`re trying to say she is their resident good guy character, you know, the one with the pure soul, where all the other dealing-in-darkness-characters look up to her and remind themselves what is good in the world. It`s too hard being that character for all eternity, though. Everyone should be allowed their own darkness.

 

Quote

Also, I know I'm probably supposed to be worried now whenever Chase is in a scene with anyone, but I'm just not. It's more like, "meh, okay? You go Chase!" It's not like S2 with Slade where I was worried when he showed up at the mansion. 

In the interest of dramatic irony, I wonder if Adrian somehow has a plan that sets it up so Felicity causes Susan`s death by making her believe she is killing Prometheus. 

[tangerine95]

I think the reason Felicity isn't really responding to either Digg's or Oliver's pep talks is exactly because they're holding her to a higher standard and acting like she can't possibly be going through a dark time, that she's too good for that. I mean that approach clearly hasn't worked since everytime someone says that she just decides to go deeper into the helix stuff. Hopefully the thing that will help her will be the people around her taking her more seriously and accepting that like everyone she's capable of having a dark side and doing morally questionable things. 

[DeadZeus]

So, one of the new cast members of this season is one of the new masked villains... SHOCKING!!!! Just like with Alchemy's reveal on The Flash i had absolutely no idea!!

Really? -_- Pls don't do masked a villain anymore... It doesn't work if you add a new cast member.. Like with Sebastian blood... It immediatly gives it away! But atleast they revealed that it was him in the first few episodes afaik.

But in this case it was obvious Chase was either Prometheus or Vigilante.

Also i hate episodes with barely any Green Arrow in it and this is like the third or 4th so far this season come on...

[benteen]

45 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think they`re trying to say she is their resident good guy character, you know, the one with the pure soul, where all the other dealing-in-darkness-characters look up to her and remind themselves what is good in the world. It`s too hard being that character for all eternity, though. Everyone should be allowed their own darkness.

THIS.

[ladylaw99]

I finally watched the episode with a open mind. I have been really hard on Oliver this season but after last nights episode I realized that my opinion was justified.  Oliver is an idiot.  I don't even know what to say.  

I thought BMD was bad but I think this storyline will take the cake.  For the love of God, keep Felicity away from Oliver's love life.  I can not describe how annoyed I was when he asked her to help him regarding reporter, that took balls.  Speaking of balls, I hope I never hear about Curtis' balls again.  Talk about over play.  I didn't feel bad about Paul and the divorce papers - what did he really expect.  

 I will miss Thea but I am glad she is going to be away from this suck fest storyline.  

Bring on Helix and it better be good.  I want Felicity away from Oliver and his stupidity.  i don't want any of that rubbing off on her.

I love Delicity but I must admit I was a little disappointed.  My judgment may have been clouded but I really didn't feel any concern from Diggle, I just felt that everyone puts her on a pedestal and expect better from her, like she is not allowed to have any faults.  She not allowed to be bitter after 4 years of suck.  I don't know, maybe because there was so much stupid going on I might have seen it wrong.

I wasn't surprised about the reveal because people on this board had already guessed it, but I do like Chase and am interested in him. 

These writers are making it really hard for me to want to tune in in 2 weeks.  That cliffhanger was a joke.  I don't care about Susan.  I think this break is going to be good for my brain cells.

[statsgirl]

The more I think about this episode, the more it seems like sound and fury, signifying nothing.  Oliver gets impeached but it goes nowhere and his biggest concern is over Susan.  Felicity goes down a dark path but she's skipping along. Thea is the only one with brains left in the Queen family but she's has to consign herself to do penance.  It feels like all the bad characters get rewarded and the good ones are shamed.

At this point, the only storyline I'm interested in is Prometheus.  Is he truly mad?  Does his pre-island relationship with Oliver play into it?  What was his relationship with his father like?  How does his wife feel about his absences at night and for training?

42 minutes ago, ladylaw99 said:

I love Delicity but I must admit I was a little disappointed.  My judgment may have been clouded but I really didn't feel any concern from Diggle, I just felt that everyone puts her on a pedestal and expect better from her, like she is not allowed to have any faults.  She not allowed to be bitter after 4 years of suck.

My over-riding complaint about this season is that it lacks real heart.  Diggle telling Felcity "Don't consider what I've done, like killing my own brother, you're supposed to be better than any wrong-doing.  I'd head straight for Helix too.  Other examples in the episode are Oliver picking Susan over Thea and not knowing enough about Curtis' relationship with Paul to get an impact from their divorce.  Paul didn't even try.

8 hours ago, surfer said:

So not a single person at the press conference heard the gunfire and explosions happening directly across the street?

At the very least, it should have bee picked up on the recorders of those very good Star City reporters.  The real ones, not the ones that sleep with the subject of their expose.

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Oliver`s motivation in some regards hinges on the audience buying into Susan as a character and their romance. And it`s a fail on both. The Susan-character is and always has been unlikeable and uncharismatic and the actors have no chemistry. So him going all over the place to help her get her job back? It seems so stupid.

Right now, I`m even rooting for Prometheus to kill her before he is put down. Why? Because at least Adrian is an interesting character right now and he has goddamn chemistry in his scenes with Oliver.

I think it would be a public service to get rid of her before she makes the mayor of the city even more stupid.  What were the writers thinking with this story?

In an episode where the big reveal is supposed to be Chase is Prometheus, the season's Big Bad, it's almost overshadowed by how stupid Oliver is about Susan.

1 hour ago, dtissagirl said:

But the narrative doesn't even seem to BE AWARE of any of this. The entire story is written from the standpoint that the secret of being Green Arrow outweighs any and all of Oliver's actions as Mayor. That's insane.

It doesn't outweigh Susan keeping her job and her cred though.  Having guilted Thea into a position where she resigned and made his ex-fiance fix his relationship with his new woman, I really think Oliver would be willing to out himself to save this woman he's been in a relationship with for all of 2 seconds. That's the real insanity.

[insomniadreams88]

I feel like Arrow spent more time on Susan's job than it did on Felicity's job, Havenrock and Helix (so far) combined this season. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

3 hours ago, bijoux said:

But she was hanging out at a desk like it was her desk. And as for Oliver wanting a meta as a bodyguard, cool. What about the fact that one looking exactly like her with the exact same power is working with the Green Arrow? The same dude that Oliver has just outed as a cop killer. It's all too insane and the less I think about it, the better.

Seems to me that Dinah was playing for time at a workstation that was near the Vigilante visor fragment to find the right time to snatch it. Not the best or most subtle way to get it, but it was what it was.

Could be wrong, but Dinah has not worked all that much with GA in Star City. Her introduction was in Central City, then they went into Russia...can't remember her doing much in Star City proper. Also, her power is not all that unique. Laurel used a device to simulate it. Sonic Siren (or wtf Earth 2 Laurel is called) had it and did appear in Star City and wreaked havoc. So given that the police department seem unable to have put two and two together to figure out Ollie is the Green Arrow (or that the Arrow and Green Arrow are the same guy), not sure why anyone would worry that Dinah's use of the sonic scream that (as far as we know) was not witnessed by anyone but Vigilante) would out her.

[Briscoe County III]

The Secret Diary of Desmond Pfeiffer. Wow. I miss the early UPN days. TSDDP was an underrated gem. Also unfairly cut short from those days, "Freedom," and "Level 9." Two shows that I was terribly interested in, that never got a chance.

[johntfs]

10 hours ago, finnaire said:

Thea wanted to dirty up Malone to what purpose? To excuse the fact that he got murdered?

I think the idea was "We'll say the Green Arrow killed Malone because he was a dirty criminal cop.  We'll say we covered that up so that Malone's family, friends and, oh yes, girlfriend, would be spared knowledge that he was a dirty criminal cop.  So the cover-up was a misguided attempt to protect people that loved Malone."  Like that.

The Adrian Chase reveal was really interesting.  I notice now that Chase keeps throwing these little tests at Oliver.  "I'll resign."  "Throw me under the bus."  "We can dirty up Malone."  I think Prometheus is getting a little confused and angry at how the guy who murdered his father is a pretty decent human being.  It's screwing with the story he's told himself.

Also, about the "data" from the mom, Jesus Christ how hard is that?  She had a child.  She almost certainly went to a hospital to have that child.  Just check her fucking medical records and go from there.

[benteen]

21 minutes ago, johntfs said:

I think the idea was "We'll say the Green Arrow killed Malone because he was a dirty criminal cop.  We'll say we covered that up so that Malone's family, friends and, oh yes, girlfriend, would be spared knowledge that he was a dirty criminal cop.  So the cover-up was a misguided attempt to protect people that loved Malone."  Like that.

The Adrian Chase reveal was really interesting.  I notice now that Chase keeps throwing these little tests at Oliver.  "I'll resign."  "Throw me under the bus."  "We can dirty up Malone."  I think Prometheus is getting a little confused and angry at how the guy who murdered his father is a pretty decent human being.  It's screwing with the story he's told himself.

Also, about the "data" from the mom, Jesus Christ how hard is that?  She had a child.  She almost certainly went to a hospital to have that child.  Just check her fucking medical records and go from there.

I like your thoughts about Prometheus getting upset because Oliver is not following the script he expected him too.

Of course, he might also be wondering "Seriously, can this guy possibly be any dumber?"

[finnaire]

Didn't they find a birth certificate for the Claiborne baby? 

[statsgirl]

No, they looked at the  divorce documents and found that the ex-wife had cited an illegitimate child.  That's why I wonder about Chase's relationship with his father.

50 minutes ago, johntfs said:

The Adrian Chase reveal was really interesting.  I notice now that Chase keeps throwing these little tests at Oliver.  "I'll resign."  "Throw me under the bus."  "We can dirty up Malone."  I think Prometheus is getting a little confused and angry at how the guy who murdered his father is a pretty decent human being.  It's screwing with the story he's told himself.

This is the storyline I'm interested in. And if they ditched the Susan plot, they might actually have time to do it. I have the feeling Seguarra is up to it.

[tv echo]

I hated this episode and I hated Oliver in this episode. Oliver is now too stupid and too self-centered to be the hero of this story. 

In addition to being a Dark Knight rip-off, it was completely unnecessary for Oliver to throw his GA alter ego under the bus. Did I miss something, or wasn't Malone's body found still dressed up like Prometheus, with the voice box strapped to his chest and his mouth/arms taped?  So wouldn't that evidence plus forensics support the GA's claim that he was manipulated by Prometheus into killing Malone?  Therefore, couldn't Oliver simply have told the truth (that the GA was set up by Prometheus), rather than lying and saying that the GA went rogue and murdered Malone?  As for the cover-up, he could've used a similar excuse to the one he used, or he could've just said that they needed to keep the truth a secret temporarily while they attempted to draw out Prometheus.  But once again, Oliver jeopardized not just himself, but also his team - since they will also be hunted by the police.

In this episode, Oliver seemed less concerned about protecting his secret identity than getting Susan back as his f**k buddy (after she gets her job back, look at what he's primarily concerned about - not whether she'll keep his secret, but whether they're still dating). He was amazingly nonchalant about the possibility of Susan exposing his secret. And he has yet to question the fact that she was collecting info for an expose on him while she was sleeping with him (remember, she was the one who pursued a relationship with him).  And I don't get her motivation at all. She'll keep his secret now because her reputation's been restored and she's again dating Oliver? What if he dumps her? The writers even threw in another character (like they are wont to do) to justify Oliver's actions, in this case, the doctor.  So I guess Oliver is willing to kill repeatedly to keep his GA persona a secret (even as recent as 501, "no one can know my secret"), except when it comes to a woman he's slept with (Susan, Samantha) - then, he'll go out of his way to give her what she wants, even at the expense of those closest to him and who've stood by him for years.

I hated the scene at the end where Oliver "thanks" his team for saving him, after he basically made the decision on his own to put them all in greater jeopardy.  Oliver's good with saying the pretty words, but his actions should be what matter.

But what I hated most about this episode was the treatment of Felicity. Asking his ex-fiancee to fix his love-life problem, so that he can get his f**k buddy back, is probably the most insensitive and self-centered thing that Oliver has done since last season's BMD deception. And I hate that Felicity was made to act like a doormat for Oliver and just agreed to help him, since Susan refused to take his calls, he was busy with the impeachment hearing, and Thea (smartly) refused to help him. To me, it sounded like he was asking Felicity to talk to Susan for him.  And then we see Oliver running into Susan right before the hearing, so they did have a chance to talk.  I guess, since Oliver killed Felicity's boyfriend and destroyed her personal life, Felicity has plenty of time to take care of Oliver's girlfriend problem and restore his personal life.  Maybe next time he'll ask Felicity to buy flowers for Susan for him since he's so busy being Mayor and she has no life outside the Arrow Bunker. While watching the Oliver & Felicity scene, I almost turned off the TV in disgust.

Then this episode ended in a cliffhanger threatening... Susan. Who cares? Is this supposed to make me want to return in 2 weeks to see what happens to her? Are we really supposed to believe that she really cares for Oliver, or that Oliver really cares for her?  If so, then SA and CP are doing the worst acting job in the history of TV.  I have to quote EW reviewer, Sara Netzley, here (see Starling City Times thread for full review):

Quote

As if that’s not enough, Oliver next guilts Felicity into helping him because Susan’s not returning his calls. Felicity’s clearly not okay with this, pointing out, “Susan is your girlfriend, so if anyone is going to fix it, I think it has to be you.” Oliver says he’s busy with, you know, being impeached, so Felicity reluctantly agrees to help. Look, I’ve never ended an engagement with a former billionaire playboy/masked hero after he lied to me about his secret child who was never seen again, but I don’t think I’d be cool being his wingman, no matter how much time has passed, ya know?
*  *  *
Guys, help me out here. Has this show ever once explained why Oliver cares for Susan so much? Have I missed their explosive chemistry, or all the things they have in common, or evidence that she likes him for him and not for the chance to get his shirt off to investigate his Bratva tattoos? Why is Oliver so doggedly sticking with this? Just… why?
*  *  *
Sweet galloping zebras, I am done with this character and this story line. THE REPORTER WITH A RECORD OF LIES AND MANIPULATION PROMISES TO KEEP OLIVER’S IDENTITY AS THE GREEN ARROW A SECRET, AND HE IS EXCITED THAT THEIR FIVE-MINUTE-OLD RELATIONSHIP IS SAVED.

For me, Oliver's repellent behavior completely overshadowed the "shocking" reveal that Adrian Chase is Prometheus and any of the few good moments in this episode.

ETA: Just want to add that Oliver was a terrible mayor last fall and Thea was doing all of his work (without getting any credit or acknowledgment). Now, because of something Human Target (posing as Oliver) took care of, and some mythical gun legislation, Oliver's apparently now the greatest mayor ever.

Edited March 2, 2017 by tv echo